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RfC: Increasing the activity requirement for retaining administrator rights

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd like to finally start an RfC that is a follow on from this Idea Lab discussion, regarding increasing the requirements for activity for a user to retain their administrator rights. In 2011 a discussion came to the conclusion that admins who had not performed any edits or admin actions over a period of one year should be desysopped. These editors can request their tools back without a new RfA during a period up to 3 years of inactivity, after which a fresh RfA is required. The current wording of WP:INACTIVITY states that "Admin accounts which have made no edits or administrative actions for at least 12 months may be desysopped."

There has recently been concern regarding those administrators who make very few administrator actions per year - some editors feel that a higher level of activity is expected of administrators to ensure that they are up to date on Misplaced Pages policies and practices. Others are concerned about the lack of accountability of those administrators who only make one or two actions per year and are otherwise inactive. Another issue is the tracking of the number of administrators on Misplaced Pages; varying activity means that the number of admins does not accurately represent the number of admins actively carrying out administrative tasks.

Some statistics will be useful in addressing this issue, which I primarily got from this tool query (that link can take a minute or two to open/run, be patient!). There are, as of the time of this posting, 1347 users with administrator rights on the English Misplaced Pages. Of those, 918 (68%) have made at least one loggable admin action over the past year. 609 have made more than 10 admin actions, with the other 738 (55%) contributing a total of 1092 actions over the past year (about 0.1% of all 1,101,983 actions). Put another way, out of interest, 45% of administrators carry out 99.9% of all administrator actions.

My proposal is this: Changing the text of WP:INACTIVITY from "Admin accounts which have made no edits or administrative actions for at least 12 months may be desysopped." to "Admin accounts which have made no more than 10 administrative actions for at least 12 months may be desysopped." Sam Walton (talk) 12:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Support (higher activity requirement)

1. Support. 10 admin actions in 12 months seems about right. We need an up to date criterion that more accurately reflects and quantifies today's admin work. This would not only enable more rigorous pruning, but it might encourage some admins to be more active. At a time when en.Wiki editors and new content may well be converging on the moment when new 'promotions' may not be sufficient to meet desysoping for cause and natural attrition, to be aware of the true strength will help to plan for such a contingecy. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:37, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
2. Support - an admin that only comes along once or twice a year to keep their status isn't really doing the job they volunteered for. I know real life happens, but even then an effort should be made. Primefac (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
3. Support If a user who made less than 10 edit per year ran in an RfA, they would be laughed at. Why would someone who has recived these tools be held to a lower standard, where only one administrative action is required to stay as an admin. Makes no sence to me. Admistators who has been granted these tools should be held at a higher standards. I'm all for this. (t) Josve05a (c) 12:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
4. Absolutely support – I would have gone with 12 admin actions in 12 months (i.e. averaging to 1 per month). But regardless of whether an Admin is still editing, if they aren't using their tools more than about once per month, it's clear they don't need their tools anymore and should drop back down to "regular editor" status (plus Reviewer and Rollback and whatever) – and they'd still have one three years from that to ask to have the bit restored. This is a perfectly sensible proposal – Admin status shouldn't be a lifetime appointment: editors should have that bit for only as long as they intend to actively use them. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 12:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
5. Support - You are given the tools to help the project - not to edit the project, editors do that. Spend a few minutes to work on a backlog, and done, and thanks. From the wider view, it will also help the community know when we need to make more admins to do those backlog tasks, that the current holder will, apparently, never do. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:59, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
6. Support Less than 1 action a month for a year doesn't seem too taxing. Why have the tools if you're going to sit around on your elbows doing sod all? Lugnuts 14:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
7. Support ArbCom has already struck down WP:NOTCOMPULSORY for admins. The amount of activity required is not great, and if it, what do you want the tools for? Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:54, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
8. Support This seems reasonable given that it is fairly easy to get the bit restored following removal due to inactivity. Gamaliel (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
9. Support. We have too many hat collectors and not enough active admins. I agree with the statements made Sam Walton, and the statements made above. Adminship should be a "use it or lose it" proposition. If you're not actively using it, then you don't need it. There are many reasons to do this: security (elevated permissions on long-term inactive accounts is a bad idea), staying up-to-date with policy, accountability (making a minimal amount of admin actions per year can easily hide incompetence or bad faith), etc. It's good that people have volunteered to serve the project, but if they're incapable of serving the project, then they should step down. To retain your elevated privileges when you are not using them seems like hat collection to me. Misplaced Pages will welcome you back and restore your privileges once you are able to contribute again. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:52, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

   To become an admin without any intention of using the extra privileges would be hat collecting; to stop using them after several months or years, but still have them available to you isn't hat collecting. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

10. Support, logical and sound idea. — Cirt (talk) 02:45, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
11. Support: I decided to dip back into Admin closure of AfDs spurred by this discussion. I think that this Deletion Review says everything that needs saying --> Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2015_July_10#Rhodes Bantam. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:08, 10 July 2015 (UTC) @Esquivalience:
12. Support. Good grief we should at least be as careful as Wikidata , which requires at least five admin actions per any given six months. If people haven't been noticing clueless admins doing clueless or irresponsible Rip-Van-Winkle–like things after semi-retirement, lengthy (spells of) inactivity, or extremely haphazard WP participation, then I guess they haven't been paying attention, and also haven't noticed how quickly policies, guidelines, and best practices change on current-day Misplaced Pages (as opposed to Misplaced Pages in 2005). I would also greatly increase the edit-count requirement per year.Softlavender (talk) 03:41, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
13. Support I don't see that this is going to gain traction, but I think it's a sensible thing to require of admins. I have a theory that it would rejuvenate the RFA process... but that's another story. §FreeRangeFrog 18:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
14. Support Adminship has become for too many a retirement award. We have a few very active admins working with a mop and too many others that forgot they were given a T-shirt for a reason. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
15. Support Adminship is a status that entails responsible work. It's a position of trust. If an admin is not doing the work he/she signed up for, then they shouldn't have any reason to be an admin. Administrators help keep the operation of the site running smoothly, as well as granting permissions and blocking and unblocking users. Sam.gov (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
16. Weak support I'm wary of some of the concerns expressed by the opposers—chiefly, that we don't have enough admins as is for all the work that needs doing. But the current activity requirements are quite basic, and the proposed ones still are. I don't know if there's a big problem of admins who don't do admin work, but anyone like that could use a gentle poke reminder to wield their powers for the good of the encyclopedia. Use 'em or lose 'em. Regardless of our requirements, I think we should make explicit that leeway can be appropriate. If someone experiences chronic or acute illness, or if they go do Peace Corps for a year, we should still be understanding and compassionate about real-life requirements. Admins are people too. --BDD (talk) 13:30, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
17. Strong support. WP:INACTIVITY for admins should be endorsed by WMF itself as they are intrinsically different than contributors. I have been here for 14 years and I'm in the top 800 article creators but someone that once in every blue moon does an admin task can come by and completely ruin Misplaced Pages simply because they got their adminship when we were in our formative years. I would even shorten the amount of inactivity to at least 3 admin actions per month. Why be given adminship if you are not going to do admin tasks? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose (higher activity requirement)

1. Oppose I have a couple of concerns here. First, it's not clear to me (without several examples) why it is a problem for a sysop not to use their tools often - the question of measuring administrator activity to me speaks more of a misuse of metrics than of an issue with sysop behaviour. Second, how is "administrative actions" counted here? Surely not only logged actions would count. Third, it does not readily appear to me that low tool usage by whichever metric is a reliable predictor of one's understanding of policy, or that accountability is lacking for low frequency activity. Also, as a neutral question, how would this proposal shift the workload distribution? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:46, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

   Based on the stats shown above, it appears it wouldn't shift the workload – it is still true that, currently, 50% of Admins do all the (logged) work. Now, it would be interesting to see if the other 50% is doing unlogged actions (and how many), but I'm not sure such stats will be readily available... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

2. Oppose as being unenforceable, and per my reasoning below. The goal here, it seems, is to keep admin from gaming the system, but under current policy, once desysopped, the admin can just go to WP:BN and get the bit back, the same is true under this proposal. And how does this figure into the 3 years of inactivity? They have been active editing, lets say, so the 3 year period would never begin. It would mean that 10 years later, they could get the bit back as long as they edited some because they never went completely inactive to start the 3 year period. There are other holes I can poke, but this should be sufficient. Simply won't work, even if the proposal has good intentions. You can't piecemeal the policy, you have to rewrite the entire resysop policy to make any of this work, and that isn't trivial. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
3. Oppose. First, one of the most useful skills an admin can possess is knowing when to not take any action. This proposal devalues this skill and instead encourages action even when it would be better to either talk or do nothing. Second, this proposal assumes most, if not all, meaningful admin action show up in the logs. This is just not the case. An obvious example is editing of protected pages, an action routinely performed by admins working on the various sections of the Main page or monitoring Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors. Are these actions of no value to the project just because they are not explicitly logged as an admin action? --Allen3  13:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

   While this is true, there are always a ton of admin actions that do need to be taken. There are always, for example, speedy deletion noms to be closed (mostly in the direction of deleting) and AfDs, XfDs, and RMs to be closed administratively. bd2412 T 18:54, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

4. Oppose I'd be in favor of increasing requirements, but not of dropping general edits from the definition of activity. We don't want people taking admin actions just to meet a quota. Rhoark (talk) 14:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
5. Oppose per Allen3. In addition, continuing activity requirements placed upon volunteers should be based on an ongoing expense for the organization just for keeping them on the rolls (like having to pay a medical doctor to conduct an annual physical exam of the volunteer), or the potential to do serious harm due to outdated skills (like a volunteer emergency medical technician who never bothered to pick up her Naloxone kit). Neither consideration applies to Misplaced Pages administrators. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
6. Oppose We should not be desysoping people for inactivity at all in my opinion. We are volunteers after all and should not have some quota. Chillum 14:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
7. Oppose I am on the fence as to whether we should be desysopping more admins for inactivity, as they are not harming the project by having the admin flag. I am opposed to the solution above because it will do absolutely nothing as Dennis points out below with his scenarios. This would require a complete rewrite to make it workable, not just a change to the one sentence. -- GB fan 15:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
8. Oppose As in all responsible volunteer positions, admin work takes a toll and can lead to burnout. We want admins to be able to step back and take a tool break when they need without feeling this is the end. The last thing we need is burnt out admins making problematic usage of tools because when they are not at their best just because otherwise they lose their tools. On a side note, I always thought inactivity desysoping was because when an account comes back after that long it is hard to tell if it is the same person, or if they have changed, or if Misplaced Pages has changed. If the admin has not been using tools, but has been editing actively, they have not exactly lost touch of the community. They are probably aware of changes in policy and recent ArbCom cases. We also probably know if their judgement or behaviour has taken a turn for the worse. In this situation, what is the problem with a probably trustworthy admin having tools they don't use, or use rarely? Happy Squirrel (talk) 15:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

   Actually, one of the main reasons we desysop is security. To reduce the chance of a unused account being hacked while the admin isn't monitoring that email address. Many admin use dedicated email addresses for Misplaced Pages. I could think of a few PR companies that would pay a chunk of change to buy that hacked account, btw. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

   In that case, an admin who has not used the tools, but has been editing should not be desysoped since they are not a security threat. They should be immediately aware if their account has been compromised. Happy Squirrel (talk) 20:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

9. Oppose In a perfect world, no one would have to perform any administrative actions. This feels like requiring police officers to make traffic ticket quotas.--Jorm (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
10. Oppose. The inactivity desysop was created to reduce the security risk associated with unattended admin accounts, which is reasonable. This proposal seems motivated by an entirely different animating principle, namely that admins who have low activity can't be trusted to do the right thing in the future. I don't buy into that principle at all. The core attribute of adminship is trust, and while trust can rise and fall for many reasons (some of which are not even directly connected to admin behavior), I don't believe that trust should turn on how many logged admin actions one creates. Dragons flight (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
11. Oppose - on the face of it, I'm generally against proposals which will add to administrator attrition even a little without substantially improving the encyclopedia, and this proposal fails in that aspect. I'm also with other opposers who have pointed out that this isn't in the spirit of WP:INACTIVITY which is meant to protect the encyclopedia from genuinely abandoned accounts. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
12. Oppose FWIW 10 actions a year is hardly "high activity". Next (as others have mentioned) this is much to much like a policeman having a ticket quota. It leads to taking an action just to take it and not considering whether the action is the right one. MarnetteD|Talk 16:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
13. Oppose Per Dennis Brown, I can't see it being any use. Per Rhoark, we shouldn't be requiring quotas - even if all that's needed is to visit CSD once a year and delete the first 10, 12, or however many, things on the list without reading the articles. As to the RfA comment, quite right, we wouldn't hand out a mop to someone with 10 edits a year. But the person concerned here isn't at RfA. It only takes five mins to perform 10 deletions. Does it prove anything other than that someone has the password for the account? One action also proves that. One edit also proves it. But who has it? Peridon (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
14. Oppose I think the current position where admins have the tool removed after going completely inactive for 12 months is about right. We should be be quite ready to remove the tools where an issue arises with that admin, but except for that an admin for makes any useful contributions should be welcomed. Also there are actions that only administrators can take that are not logged as such and as Dennis Brown says there is no way of tracking those. I do support however changing the statistic of measuring how many admins we have that are defined as "active" to make how that is measured stricter (or have a new stricter measure added), so we can measure how many significantly active admins we really have, but we should not desysop those who don't meet it. (I should declare an interest here in that I think I would have been desysopped under this proposal back in 2013, before getting sucked back in May 2014 and making thousands of logged actions this year) Davewild (talk) 19:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
15. Oppose, I see no evidence that what this RFC aims to fix is a problem and this problem is serious enough to warrant further policy creep. Max Semenik (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
16. Oppose Per Dennis and Happy Squirrel. Furthermore, in my opinion, all this will do is increase the potential burn-out for the "remaining" admins and cause us to have a net decrease in available admins in the not-too-distant future. -- Avi (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
17. Oppose. An inactive admin has the potential to become an active admin again. Desysop them and they lose that potential for little good reason. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 21:22, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
18. Oppose, for several reasons. 1) I posted some similar statistics a couple of months ago, with the observation that the percentage of admins making no logged actions has changed very little over time (~33%) while a smaller number of admins have been accounting for a larger proportion of total admin actions. I would oppose any change with the potential to further decrease diversity in overall admin decision-making. 2) Per Allen3, who has correctly identified the importance of knowing how and when to do nothing. We should encourage people to do more nothing around here. 3) There's no evidence presented that there is currently a problem with the activity criteria, or that this proposal would solve any specific problem. Doing nothing about non-problems is just as important collectively as it is individually. You know what to do with things that ain't broke, right? COI: I was desysopped under the existing activity criteria, but it wouldn't have made any difference if this proposal had been in effect. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
19. Oppose - I'm for a higher requirement than one anything every 12 months, but I don't think that someone who is an active or semi-active editor should be desysopped. --B (talk) 21:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
20. Oppose in its current format because IMO it is unfeasible and may deter any existing admins or put too much of a "quota" on them. However, lower the threshold and I'll see if I can support it. I agree with Dennis Brown's comment that the rule can be easily be gamed, so it's not feasible in any format, unless you change or eliminate the 3-year re-RfA requirement as well. Epic Genius (talk) 04:08, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
21. Oppose - While I appreciate the need for administrators to be more active and up-to-date with the community, Misplaced Pages is not compulsory, and the spirit of that policy is that we shouldn't focus on demanding more from other editors—administrators and their toolset included. I agree with others who have said this might feel like putting a "quota" on them. In other words, the focus should be on improving the encyclopedia, not worrying about whether you've logged 10 admin things this year. That being said, the current policy of desysopping if an admin is completely separated from the project—no edits, no logged actions whatsoever—for 12 months makes sense. In the current case, we're not demanding more, we just want to make sure you're up to speed after a year-long break. Mz7 (talk) 05:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
22. Oppose as per the above. We're not creating an incentive to remain active, we're just making it slightly harder to avoid going inactive. Also, the concerns about actions that would not fit into this metric (declined unblocks, for example) are worth looking at as well. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
23. Oppose the current status quo of removing totally inactive admin accounts makes sense, but having an arbitrary quota does not. Not only does this not address any problem in particular, it unfairly discriminates against non-stereotypical admins who have the nerve to do activities which may leave them unable to access Misplaced Pages regularly, such as having kids, taking trips, doing missionary work, military service, etc. This would impair the diversity of the Misplaced Pages admin group even worse than it currently is. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
24. oppose none of the concerns listed as rationale for the change are of any actual concern. no "less active" admin has to my knowledge ever made a bad administrative action based on "old" interpretations. this is an attempt to fix a problem that doesnt exist. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
25. Oppose Since there is no cloud, desysopping of someone that is editing can be reversed by request. What is the new activity requirement accomplishing? Dormant accounts with no activity get desysopped and in three years it requires RFA. This will do nothing to prevent an admin from simply requesting the tools back when they are desysopped. I'd rather have them game the system with one edit a year then to bog down bureaucrats with re-sysop requests when that becomes easier than the one edit per year game. In essence, this is replacing "one edit" with "one crat request" and is more burdensome. --DHeyward (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
26. Oppose. It isn't that hard to do 10 admin actions in one year. If the purpose of this is to desysop the ones who make a few edits per year to retain adminship, how hard is it to do a deletion, block at AIV, AfD closure, every month; or do a batch of them in a hour or so? The quota can be made higher so that there needs to be considerable activity to retain adminship; but admins may go semi-active for reasons out of their control. This change is also prone to ten times more wikilawyering and differing interpretations. Esquivalience 00:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
27. Strong Oppose. We have processes that can address the issues of an Administrator who is gaming the system to retain his or her hat. I see no reason to increase the minimum load; we already have too few mop wielders due to the fact that RfA is a brutal process that needs to be tamed a bit, and the fact that editors who have been around enough to DESERVE that mop are 'not a dime a dozen'. Administrators are people who willingly subject themselves to the magnifying glass of scrutiny in order to attain a few more buttons. They are volunteers; not employees we can just lay quotas on. I'll agree with other Oppose votes and say that there's no problem being fixed by raising the quota. Some Admins are dispute resolution masters, who may not wield their mop much. By adding a quota, we restrict those users and incentivize them to use their powers more than reason dictates they should by adding a quota. I don't care how easy it is to go out and find a vandal to bop or an article to speedily delete, they shouldn't need to do something for the sake of doing it. Melody Concerto 01:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
28. Oppose - Desysopping admins who actively edit but perform less than 10 admin actions per year would not address any of the concerns. As an active editor, such admins would be aware of evolving policy and would be accountable. Rlendog (talk) 05:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
29. Oppose - I think the proposal outlines the problem well but the proposed remedy is really a form of editcountitis. Besides, we have an admin shortage; if someone only carries out 9 useful admin actions in a year, well, every little helps. WaggersTALK 12:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
30. Strong oppose - editcountitis indeed. And besides, this is a volunteer project. Every edit should count. Period. - jc37 06:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
31. Oppose, solution looking for a problem. Stifle (talk) 08:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
32. Oppose, per TheRedPenOfDoom and Stifle. This is most definitely a solution looking for a problem. Desysoping long-term, completely inactive accounts is one thing, but Administrator policy specifically states that an administrator is never required to use their tools. This proposal seems to go against the sentiment completely, for no reason. Things change around here, but they don't change that quickly or that dramatically. Any users who are capable of orienting themselves with adminship to begin with are definitely capable of reorienting themselves with it after a break, any time they need or want to do so. A user at this level does not simply 'forget' how to edit Misplaced Pages, and likewise they don't forget how to perform administrative tasks. While not a draconian proposal or anything, forcing us to meeti an arbitrary quota of administrative actions will not separate a good admin from a bad one, nor will it improve the project in any way I can forsee. Swarm 08:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
33. Oppose - Nothing wrong with the policy we already have, If you're editing you're still active regardless of tool-use, Personally see no point to this. –Davey2010 05:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
34. Oppose We don't impose a minimum number of edits to retain a registered account, so why should we impose a minimum number of admin actions to keep the admin tools? TomStar81 (Talk) 12:27, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
35. Oppose I worry that it will lower the quality of admin work if it provides a slight incentive to rack up admin action count. Not sure I want to see an admin that is a couple shy feeling like they have to quickly block someone or something at the end of the 12 month cycle, even if they try to be careful in what they choose I can see such pressure causing mistakes to be made. PaleAqua (talk) 08:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
36. Oppose. I don't use the tools often because I focus on content and seldom see a need to use them. I don't search out admin tasks to do, but if I see something requiring attention, it is useful to be able to deal with it. Everyking (talk) 17:40, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
37. Oppose Pretty much per PaleAqua, quotas that could pressure admins into using their tools when uncertain seems a bad idea.Bosstopher (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
38. Oppose Dennis Brown's objections are persuasive. Neljack (talk) 01:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
39. Oppose - Not convinced on the need for this and the current policy, which I supported from the start, is sufficient for dealing with abandoned admin accounts. CT Cooper · talk 07:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
40. Oppose - This is a very bad idea: we do not need to impose a ticket quota on administrators as if they are patrol officers working traffic. Imposing minimum requirements on marginally active admins is not going to lead to more good admin decisions. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
41. Oppose - This is just looking for something else to police. And it breeds distrust. We're mostly competent people here, and there are already procedures in place to deal with the incompetent ones. Kingturtle = (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
42. Oppose We elect admins to use the tools given to them when their judgment tells them to do so, not to fulfill a quota—even a small one. I simply don't see a benefit in this kind of thing. This simply gives administrators who are inactive the motivation to turn up, do ten admin actions in one blast—burn through a few CSDs or RFPPs and then disappear again. This is extra workload for crats/stewards for no real benefit. The only purported benefit I'm seeing is that if we have some idea of the actual number of active administrators, we can make efforts to recruit more administrators to make up the shortfall. But we can't. The bottleneck is RfA: there are good qualified candidates who could become fine and productive administrators, if we didn't subject them to the strange and barbaric week-long hazing ritual. The account security benefits are already provided by the existing desysop-on-extended-inactivity policy. If one wishes to rally together support for getting more administrators, simply look at metrics of admin activity and point out why the current number of active admins doesn't match the admin workload. And if getting more people to do admin work is needed, why not simply drop an email to one of those existing admins saying "hey, we miss you at Misplaced Pages, we really need active, smart admins working in this area and would love to see you back!" Carrots and niceness seems better than hitting people with sticks. —Tom Morris (talk) 08:07, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
43. Oppose - I agree with the majority of the sentiments above. De-sysoping is really only necessary if the tools granted by this right are being abused, or if ones conduct is egregious.—Godsy_CONT) 08:14, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
44. Oppose: We need more admins, not fewer. I agree with people wanting to see a high activity level for approving a new admin (I recent voted against a candidate partially on the basis of a paltry activity level), but everyone needs wikibreaks, and some of us bail for a year or longer doing other things in our lives, only to return to high activity levels later. This is true of admins as well as non-admins.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  11:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
45. Oppose — Protip: admins (myself included) aren't going to magically make more time they already don't have just to meet some stupid, arbitrary requirement, and creeping up baseline activity requirements is just going to result in more people feeling disinclined to return after periods of absence just to avoid the annoyance of the bureaucracy involved with resuming. I've gone many months without activity at times (because real life gets in the freaking way of volunteering), only to finally find myself with some free time to tackle some CSDs or something. Proposals like this, while well-intentioned, are fundamentally ignorant in premise and assumptions; for, they assume people like me need prodding to stay active or some other crap like that. We don't. In fact, I basically go through withdrawals and start feeling edgy if I've been deprived of free time to put in to volunteering. The only thing you're going to accomplish by trying to force us to do more (by the cracking of a whip, it seems) is to make us leave or just not care enough to jump through the hoops any more if we fall behind. Any admin worth their weight in salt will, after any period of inactivity, check guidelines or policies to make sure whatever they're doing is "up to code" before taking action, and if they forget or something slips by, they'll happily admit "my bad" and undo something if they screwed up. It really isn't a big deal if, for example, something gets speedily deleted accidentally because of some minor CSD wording change or something, because everything has an undo button and/or a process like DRV exists to deal with out-of-process actions. What matters more is keeping people who have a history of trustworthiness around, and, failing that, keeping the porch light on so that they always feel welcome to return and pick up where they left off. Good admins—no, good volunteers—are basically like good friends: you can be apart for years and still pick right back up where you left off. --slakr 01:06, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
46. Oppose - for the reasons stated above. Neutrality 19:16, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
47. Oppose at first glance this seems a medium price to pay for something that a few people think is sensible even if they can't come up with a good rationale for it. 1092 logged admin actions a year looks at first glance like the equivalent of losing a one pretty active admin, but longer term we have lots of admins who have the odd inactive year, so the admin actions we would lose in subsequent years are likely to be far greater. And of course not all admin actions are equal, an evening on huggle blocking vandals or a couple of hours clearing the expired prod queue would easily pass this test, occasionally closing RFCs or appointing autopatrollers would take far longer to generate ten admin actions. ϢereSpielChequers 21:39, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
48. Oppose, just popping in, since I only very ocassionally browse these forums. Speaking as perhaps one of the questionably-elected and only moderately active administrators of ye' old, I find that my random bursts of activity, both as an editor and "administrator" (i.e., my interface just happens to have more complicated and often unused buttons), tend to be helpful and attract little to no ire. If the argument concerns statistical accuracy, it seems like a rather poor argument that, because our tracking tools aren't specific enough or collecting the desired blocks of data, we should simply change the state of affairs to match them. I often wonder if these sort of conversations turn more generally on and are the result of the imagined (and, granted, very often actualized) divide between those who "have the tools" and those who do not. After all, the cross-section of those who participate in these sort of discussions are those who choose to visit the forum in the first place and then perhaps those who have a stake in its result. I found Kingturtle's remark (oppose #41) rather convincing. In any case, this proposal may have the reverse effect on the latter end, since we'd just end up loading the bureaucrats with further (well, bureaucratic) responsibilities. Blurpeace 11:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
49. Can't really see much of a point. Speaking as a sometimes-active currently-mostly-inactive admin who was promoted more than nine years ago, I know from experience that coming back after a year or so means that things will have changed, so I know I need to look around a bit and see what current policy is before I reach for my block button. Whether I perform ten or twenty low-level easy logged admin actions every year changes nothing about my knowledge of policies, and being forced to perform ten CSDs per year will only serve to annoy me. Instead of desysopping people like me because we make the number of admins (or of "semi-active" or "active" admins) look higher than they are, perhaps we should just add another "admins who actively perform logged admin actions" category to the list at WP:LA. —Kusma (t·c) 11:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
50. Oppose There are legitimate reasons for why an Admin could go dark for an extended period of time (12+ months). Honestly I would support some kind of rule that de-sysopped inactive admins after 2 years as that is long enough to be considered informally retired or having effectively abandoned any interest in their office. This seems unnecessarily short term. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
51. Oppose While I don't see that this would cause major harm, I see no meaningful benefit. The major worry is that in inactive account might be compromised. But an account that has been making edits even if not using the tools is not inactive, and is no easier to compromise than an account that has been using the tools. The other argument is that someone who has been inactive will have failed to understand that standards and procedures have changed, and do something horrid. Given that no one has cited even a single actual example of this (or if they did I missed it) this can't be happening very often. For a rare problem, a site-wide process is usually not the answer (and this from the initial drafter of WP:Process is Important). If a recently returned admin makes egregious errors, they can be explained to him (or, less likely, her) on a user talk page, or failing that, at WP:ANI. If there is continued problem, a block or an emergency desysop can be done quickly. This is a solution in search of a problem. DES 01:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
52. Oppose Ideally inactive admins should never lose the tools too. We only do so to avoid compromise accounts and maintain security. This proposal is not relevant to security at all (non-admin edits show that the account is not compromised). This will just make adminship more exclusive than it is now when it should be becoming more inclusive as it was in the past. Gizza 08:23, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

    I would have amended the proposal to include non-admin edits as activity, since knowledge of changing policies, emerging issues, the personalities of active editors, etc., is necessary; and that can come from non-admin involvement. I think that inflating the number of admins with those who are inactive would be making adminship seem more exclusive. Numbering only active admins would probably manifest the need for more. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:18, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

    The number of active admins is already provided at Misplaced Pages:List of administrators. It's not like we're trying to hide this number. This won't make it easier for future candidates to pass RfA and will just increase the editor to admin ratio and hence make the tools more exclusive and more of a "big deal" than they should be. Gizza 01:39, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

53. Oppose. Do we currently have such a glut of admins that we need to thin the ranks? What problem is this trying to fix? How many individual admins come back after long periods of inactivity and (out of ignorance of policy changes or whatever other cause) abuse the admin tools? Is that number too large to handle on an individual basis? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
54. Oppose Admins who are active editors are fine. Not all admins need to be actively using admin tools. People go in bursts of activities. A page may need protecting here, copyright infringing images deleted there, page moves carried out etc. Do not see the need for this change. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
55. Oppose, per David Eppstein and others above. The pool of admins should be as large as possible. The inactivity policy is profoundly unwiki and should really be scrapped entirely -- but in any event, it should not be expanded.-- Visviva (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
56. Oppose - I see no good reason to make this rule; and there are likely to be too many false positives - e.g closing XfD discussions as KEEP, editing temporarily full-protected pages, declining unblock requests, etc. It would be impossible to detect al admin activity (defined as anything that we wuld expect an administrator to handle). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
57. Oppose. As a bit of bias disclosure, I might be affected by this proposal. But I just don't see this as solving any problem. I've seen no evidence presented that less active admins are turning abusive (at least at no higher a rate than other admins). Yes, sometimes less active admins may fall behind on some policies. If they do, it's their responsibility to catch up again before they take actions in those areas. Removing their adminship seems pointless to me, though. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:18, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
58. Oppose. An editor's suitability for adminship has far more to do with temperament and clue, than it does with familiarity with the minutia of policy. If an admin does return from a long hiatus, any mistakes he makes from not being familiar with policy updates aren't going to destroy the project (certainly, if it was standard practice less than four years ago, it can't be too bad). Someguy1221 (talk) 08:15, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
59. Oppose Never been a fan of this. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 16:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
60. Oppose per Chillum and Happy Squirrel. Bastun 12:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion (higher activity requirement)

• That is a sticky situation, as we are learning at AE. Consensus seems to be that doing certain actions that only admin are allowed to do, ie: close an AE discussion, are indeed "admin actions" yet no log is shown of it. I would also argue that the quality of an admin isn't measured by the times you block someone, but arguably by the number of blocks you can avoid by careful mediation. The fact that you have the tools and the editors know you CAN block if needed, is sometimes helpful in an edit war, for instance. The same for ANI/AN3, an admin can lend his expertise in an official capacity without actually using the tools, in what is arguably an admin role. Much of the power of the admin bit is when you don't use it. On the opposite side, you might have admin that only use the tools on articles they themselves are interested in and editing. Moving over redirects and the like. Even though they are only serving their own interests (and ours, of course), they wouldn't be under scrutiny because they fall on the "ok" side of this measuring stick. Their contributions to the community, however, may actually be less than the admin that mentors, mediates and monitors. I'm not arguing against the logic in the proposal, but I think it would be hard to be completely fair and mistakes could happen too often, as proposed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• Couldn't most of this concern be satisfied by a "better accounting" of Admin actions? I remember this point was made in the previous discussion, and it does seem like there are "holes" in this system – "Admin-type actions" that AdminStats isn't "catching" in its count, and probably should be. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
• I do not think this is a problem. First, most (if not all) of the admins who are inactive are really inactive - not that they are active in non-logged actions and not active in logged actions. Making 10 logged actions takes 5 minutes - for example, we have about 2000 broken redirects which are amenable to speedy deletion. And, if this is a real issue, i.e. an admin is active in a non-logged part but for whatever reason does not want to make logged actions - they will be perfectly capable explaining this to crats, pointing out their activity, and avoid desysopping.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• Per your reasoning, "most (if not all) of the admins who are inactive are really inactive", this makes the proposal an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy then. It means it is answering a question that no one is asking. I think the current policy makes sense, and it could be tweaked, but adding something like this would require rewriting the whole policy due to all the loopholes, and I'm not convinced there is any real benefit from the effort. I'm not arguing against the principle, but this proposal is unworkable, and I lack the imagination to propose a better one at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:43, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• Let me offer some scenarios...

Scenario 1: I quit using the tools but still do a little editing each month. One year from now, you desysop me. I go to WP:BN and ask for my tools back. Policy says I can do this as they weren't taken under a cloud and there isn't a 3 year period without edits. Proposal doesn't work.

Scenario 2: I quit using the tools but still do a little editing each month. I get the notice that I'm about to be desysoped (required), so I quickly go and make 10 admin actions so I won't be. You know, sloppy RFPP protections or close a few early deletes at AFD, no need to be good actions, just actions. Proposal doesn't work.

Scenario 3: I quit using the tools but still do a little editing each month. I get notice I'm about to be desysopped (required). I let it happen. I continue to edit some every month for years. 5 years later, I go reclaim my admin tools because there was never a 3 year period of inactivity, and policy says there MUST be 3 years with NO editor activity to force me back to RFA. Proposal doesn't work.

It isn't about being against the principle, it is that this is a completely unworkable proposal as written. The entire policy would have to be rewritten, "admin action" has to be defined, there has to be a way to search for admin actions that aren't logged, etc. Good intentions, but bad idea. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:54, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the problem you are talking about at is that of people who are not here to create content, and this proposal is not really intended to address that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:19, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• If something like this were to move forward, I would prefer something similar to what I've workshopped at Misplaced Pages talk:Bureaucrats#Activity requirement; allowing a longer period of time, and commenting or acting as an administrator counting as administrator activity (to recognize that many administrative acts aren't necessarily reflected in Special:Log). This could be rather difficult to determine in any automated fashion, mind (much moreso than bureaucrats, anyway). –xeno 20:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• The only real way to do this sort of thing would be to add a flag to edits, similar to the minor edit flag, that would label them as edits made in an administrative capacity. Actually, if used properly, that might solve quite a few problems, wouldn't it? (I should send this to VPT!) Take the current proposal. Did you close an AFD? Tag it as an Admin edit, and there's one administrative action. Decline an unblock? There's two. And so on. But until we have something like that, this proposal doesn't work. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 16:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• Interesting idea! It would solve a lot of problems. –xeno 16:23, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, that is an interesting proposal – I don't recall anyone suggesting this before. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• Proposed at VPT. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:48, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment This is similar with what the Commons requires where they define "active" as 6 admin actions over the previous 6 months (without a discussion). However, if there is some reason why an admin is inactive (work, illness, travel, real life), they just have to post a notice within that 6 months and they are considered active. If the definition of "inactive" is broadened, I think there should be a similar proviso where communication with an inactive admin would restart the 6 month period. People have legitimate reasons for becoming inactive.Liz 20:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
• II think we might want to at least ask admins who have not used the admin rights at all in the last year or so if they want to m keep it, or be removed from the active list. This really doesn't even require a policy change--anyone could do it. `DGG (at NYPL) -- reply here 00:33, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
• I am still not quite sure why this is being discussed... why does it matter if an admin goes inactive? As far as I know, there is no limit to the number of people who become be admins... so it's not as if keeping an inactive admin on the roles is preventing someone else from becoming an admin. So what is the problem with keeping inactive admins? Blueboar (talk) 01:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

  @Blueboar: The general view among IT security professionals is that idle accounts pose a security threat, and obviously idle accounts with additional permissions pose more of a threat. TBH there's not much reasoning behind that view other than the fact that if someone hasn't accessed their account for a while, you can be fairly sure they haven't changed their password recently, making them more vulnerable to a brute-force attack. Also if a user isn't regularly monitoring their account they're unlikely to notice if someone else hacks into it. WaggersTALK 11:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

  Right: making edits but not performing any administrative actions is explicitly not a problem from an account-security perspective. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I can see a clear need to remove the admin right for totally inactive accounts to prevent someone other than the original editor gaining access. In several instances I have cleaned out the home of someone who passed away, and in other cases I have found a box of some deceased or incapacitated relative's personal papers. It would seem likely that such effects would sometimes include a list of online accounts and passwords. For my own such listing, the passwords are encrypted, but I doubt that is common. Others may keep such info in some computer "password vault," but that seems hackable. As others have stated above, a stolen admin account might be of value to various parties such as PR firms. A turnoff of admin rights after perhaps a year of total inactivity would be of value, just to keep the password and account name from falling into the hands of someone else when the admin is no longer with us in one way or another. If the editor returns from an overseas military deployment, or finishes his novel or dissertation, or her new baby is old enough not to need constant care, or he recovers from the illness, then he can ask for the bit back, if he did not leave under a cloud. Imposing a work quota on unpaid volunteers is silly when there is little or no expense associated with allowing the volunteer some status. Does Misplaced Pages pay for insurance/bonding for the volunteer? Pay anything monetarily? Provide office space or computer equipment? Pay so much for annual credit checks or security checks? Provide health care or pension contributions? What is the annual cost of maintaining a computer file that says the volunteer editor has the admin bit? Some small fraction of a cent, perhaps? But the volunteer has contributed thousands of hours of work in most cases to achieve a record which motivates the community to grant him the bit. Eagerness to remove the bit unless the volunteer meets some arbitrary work quota seems puzzling. Edison (talk) 17:58, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I am puzzled by your puzzlement? Sure they're volunteers - they volunteered to do something - and we accepted them because we needed it done. If adminship is a position of trust then they have breached trust because we trusted them with the tools to improve the project but they're not doing that -- they have wasted our time in granting, or in continuing to grant, them that trust. Volunteering to do something, and then not doing it, is frowned on everywhere in life. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

If you are that angry at some volunteer who does not do a quantity of work you require, then stop paying her. How on earth does it cost you time, effort or money for some to keep the bit when they do not run around all the time blocking and deleting? Some of us are content adders and use the tools when we encounter something which needs them. How many hours a year do you devote to "continuing to grant" the admin their bit?Edison (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

That didn't make any sense at all . You can't "stop paying" someone that isn't paid. That's what volunteer labor is: unpaid.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  11:17, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

That's the point, SMcCandlish. Alan is claiming that a volunteer who is less than ideally active (at this particular point in time) is imposing some sort of cost on Alan. It sounds like he has to spend a non-trivial amount of time "continuing to grant" trust to them, or their admin bits will somehow expire. AFAICT, everyone else thinks that it's faster to "continue to grant trust" to all existing admins (elapsed time on task: 0.0 seconds) than to actually determine which admin bits should be revoked. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

If you say so. I agree with the premise that re-extending trust takes no time investment, and I opposed this proposal, too. But "stop paying the volunteer" didn't parse. Maybe I'm being too literal and missing some joke.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  00:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

It does not parse because Edison and WhatamIdoing are not responding to my comment(or they are stating claims that I did not make--is it possible they don't know what volunteer means?): 1) there is no pay - admins know that going in (as do editors); 2) no one has said you have to fulfill the 10 actions in 12 months by blocking or deleting; 3) it has nothing to do with anger; 4) cost to me is not even discussed in my comment; 5) there is no 'determining which admin bits to revoke' for non-admining, they're revoked until such time you decide you want to volunteer to do those admin things again and demonstrate how you'll benefit the project with them - and then you can request it back); 6) we have editors to edit, admins are not given the tools to edit (and, at any rate, the non-active are not using them to edit apparently or they would use them, at least, less than once a month). 7) trust is earned in the doing, it's earned day-by-day - that's how trust is generally understood. Finally, redundant admins are just that, redundant -- we either don't need new admins or, hey, you volunteered to use those tools to do things that are needed, so, you know, do it. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2015 (UTC) But perhaps I am missing something, serious questions: is it that important to admins that they are admins, even if they don't show a use of the tools? Is it just a status thing ("big deal") to them? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

You wrote that admins who are relatively inactive "have wasted our time in...continuing to grant, them that trust". Wasting time = imposing a cost. (Not all costs involve money.) I disagree that "continuing to grant trust" to an unknown, relatively inactive admin costs me any time at all. Therefore that action cannot waste any of my time at all.

Would you apply the same logic to other volunteers? "Hey, you volunteered to edit the encyclopedia, so, you know, do it, or we'll take away your ability to do so!" Maybe that sounds like a bad idea. Maybe accepting occasional periods of complete inactivity, and long periods of low activity, is actually desirable.

I doubt that an inactive admin even thinks about the "status thing". S/he is probably thinking something more like "I wish I had more time for my Misplaced Pages hobby". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:56, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I mentioned this in my !vote, but the whole sentiment of this being a volunteer effort is grounded in policy at WP:NOTCOMPULSORY: Misplaced Pages is a volunteer community and does not require the Wikipedians to give any more time and effort than they wish. Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians. Editors are free to take a break or leave Misplaced Pages at any time. I don't see administrators as being any different in terms of being volunteer contributors to this encyclopedia. Administrators are fellow editors, just with an added toolset. I can understand the view that the admin toolset is given out of trust that the administrator will use the tools to improve the encyclopedia, and that by not using the tools, they are not following through with that trust. However, I disagree; how I see it is that an administrator is just another volunteer editor—when we trust them with the tools, we don't trust that they will use the tools, but we trust that when they volunteer to use the tools, they will use them correctly. Mz7 (talk) 05:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• A lot of admin stuff is not counted like "looking at and sending someone an article that has been previously deleted" or "editing a protected page". Additionally their is no evidence that having "admin activity" limits will make it any easier to become an admin. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:52, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• What would be the benefit of removing admin rights to inactive editors? --NaBUru38 (talk) 16:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Regulation Committee and alternatives to consensus

Bumping thread for 30 days. ceradon (talk • edits) 04:22, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Members of the community are invited to give their thoughts at a request for comment to discuss Wikipedians' alternatives to consensus, and the formation of a proposed Regulation Committee. Thank you, --ceradon (talk • edits) 04:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The RFC was Snow closed as rejected. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Threshold for Autopatrolled rights

Title shortened from "Reduce the threshold to qualify for Autopatrolled rights to 25 articles created" - Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

After a discussion at WT:Autopatrolled I propose that the requirement for gaining Autopatrolled rights following requests at WP:PERM be lowered from 50 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created to 25 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created (or, at the least, somewhere in the range of 20–30 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created). The revised text at WP:Autopatrolled would thus read:

A suggested standard is the prior creation of 50 25 valid articles, not including redirects or disambiguation pages †.
† Note: The bracketed text in italics is a suggested addition of mine, but can be considered separate from the proposal of lowering the article creation threshold for Autopatrolled rights.

The purpose of this proposal is two-fold:

1. To help reduce the workload on our WP:NPP and our WP:Page Curation crews, who shouldn't be wasting time on having to "review" new articles created by experienced (and presumably "trusted") mid-level editors.
2. To allow our experienced mid-level editors the opportunity to be granted Autopatrolled user rights, rights which should not be reserved for our "super content creators" (i.e. who have created 50+ articles – a difficult number for most volunteer editors, even mid-level ones, to achieve).

Background

Currently, there are three ways editors obtain Autopatrolled user rights (and I'm essentially requoting Admin WereSpielChequers below, from this discussion):

1. Some admins, probably at New pages patrol will come across newish editors who have clearly grasped notability and referencing and just appoint them as Autopatrolled.
2. Some editors get nominated or are nominated for this user right (at WP:PERM/A).
3. Editors request Autopatrolled rights themselves at WP:PERM/A.

Originally, the required threshold for route #3 was 75 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created(!), a seemingly high threshold, indeed.

In early 2011, a discussion was launched here – Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 83#Autopatrolled - reduce number of qualifying articles – to lower the original 75 article created threshold. While there was no firm consensus at that time what the article creation threshold level should be reduced to, there appears to have been no opposition to lowering the article creation threshold level at that time, and a figure 20–25 articles created was often mentioned as a desirable level. With no firm consensus for an exact number of articles created for the threshold, WhatamIdoing reduced the level to 50 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created in the text at WP:Autopatrolled as a reasonable compromise.

Based on more recent discussions – at WT:Autopatrolled (with a somewhat related discussion, here) – I am again proposing a reduction in the threshold to be granted Autopatrolled rights, this time making the threshold 25 (non-redirect, non-disambiguation) valid articles created (or, somewhere in the 20–30 article creation range).

I have collected some data ahead of this proposal, mostly from the Top 5,000 article creators as listed at Misplaced Pages:List of Wikipedians by article count (other data is hard to come by, as a result of the halting of data collection (e.g. this) by Bots over time...), focusing on the article counts in the 'Non-redirects' column, and found at total of 218 editors in that list that have created 20–49 (non-redirect) articles – of that total, approximately 12% already have Autopatrolled user rights(!). (More details on this data I collected can be found here, and can be pasted over to this topic, upon request...).

Bottom line: I am seeing no major problems with lowering the article creation threshold at WP:Autopatrolled to 25 articles (and, indeed, a significant percentage of these editors already have Autopatrolled rights), and the editors who have already weighed in on this proposal have been supportive.

Please indicate your support, opposition, or other thoughts on this proposal, below. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Support - I've thought, ever since I became familiar with what the autopatrolled user right grants, that 50 was a bit high. I think 25-30 valid articles would suffice. The proposed number is enough for a good intentioned editor to learn what is and is not appropriate. Those with bad intentions or the want to sneak an article with an inappropriate topic or content into the encyclopedia are not likely to take the time to create 25-ish valid articles and request the permission, this would take a tremendous amount of effort. We have other means in place (e.g. copyright bots, users glancing at pages that have already been patrolled on the list, reaching it through a tag applied through another method, or just a user stumbling across it, etc.) to prevent "bad" articles/content from existing for very long. The only thing this user right really does is very slightly lighten the load at New-page patrolling; I don't think inappropriate content is likely to last that much longer even if the user creating it has the right.—Godsy_CONT) 07:06, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support reducing to 25 new articles. By the time an editor has created around 25 new articles, I feel that they would be experienced enough to have their articles autopatrolled. Admins can always remove the user right if necessary. Nakon 14:32, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support I agree 25 new articles instead of 50 is reasonable. Gmcbjames (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I was unaware of this requirement. 50 is very high if we are to set a one-size-fits-all threshold. That means a user who has created 5 FAs and 44 GAs does not qualify. I also think the language should be changed significantly. 50 "valid" articles? What is a "valid" article? I would say without any guidance that a "valid" article implies little more than one that either was looked at and not marked for deletion under any process, or would not have reasonably qualified for deletion if it had been looked at. In other words, the "valid" standard means to me that a user who created poor and even problematic articles, but on notable topics – that require for example, refimprove tags or similar – would qualify for the autopatroller flag. I propose instead:

• "A suggested standard is the prior creation of 25 valid articles (not including redirects or disambiguation pages), with at least the 10 most recently created not reasonably needing maintenance tags or other new pages patroller attention.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

• I think having "none of the 10 most recently created articles having 'maintenance tags' (e.g. {{Refimprove}})" may be too high a standard. As I said recently in a discussion at WT:RfA (I think), I will sometime "self-tag" articles with {{Refimprove}} or {{Primary source}} because it's not always easy finding sources for every article topic (e.g. train station articles is one example that I can think of where sourcing is often hard to come by), and I'm not sure an editor should not be granted Autopatrolled status just for that kind of thing... I think I'd be more comfortable with wording that doesn't mention a "specific number of articles" without "tags".
  However, it's for this kind of thing as to why I suggested adding the "...at the discretion of the granting administrator" wording, as it would give Admins the discretion to not grant Autopatrolled even to editors with 25 "valid" articles if the granting Admin was worried about an editor "gaming the system" or creating a series of "sloppy" (but perhaps still technically "valid") articles just to "hat collect" for Autopatrolled rights. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:23, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

@IJBall: You're addressing an extreme rarity and one that would not even be within the spirit of the language. The point is that if a person who seeks the autopatroller flag has been creating articles that need patrolling (by third-parties), why should we give them a right that allows them to bypass that very patrolling? It's almost a syllogism.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:10, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support since it doesn't take 50 articles to demonstrate decent writing skills and a grasp of the policies. That said, perhaps the number should be left at 50 for self-nomination. This would give administrators a clear green light for adding the user-right to those who demonstrate competence in this area, while ensuring that those who want it for purposes other than reducing the "new page patrol" workload will have to work for it a bit longer. If someone else doesn't notice good quality work by the time the count gets that high, maybe there is a reason. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  04:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The proposal as written is to drop the level to 25 valid articles for "self-nominators" specifically. Those otherwise nominated for (or granted) Autopatrolled rights are already effectively held to a standard lower than 50 valid articles. Leaving it at 50 for self-nominators defeats the purpose of this proposal and guts it. The fact is, 25 created articles is enough evidence for Admins to quickly look through them and determine if self-nominators have demonstrated the skill necessary to be granted Autoreviewer rights or not. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:49, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The suggestion was intended to mean that we could also consider amending the written guideline to formally allow admins to grant the right at 25 new articles, but still leave the self-nomination criteria at 50. The reason for this is that some new users might expect to be approved as soon as they have written 25 articles and self-nominate, but some of their early work might not have been up to the standards that are expected. This could leave the reviewing admin with an insufficient number of examples to review, and lead to hurt feelings when the admin refuses the request. If the self-nomination requires 50 new articles, there would likely be enough good work for the admin to review, even if the earliest examples were sub-par. In fact, admins aren't likely to look at the earliest examples if the editor's later work show that the editor now understands and applies the applicable guidelines. By requiring 50 new articles for self-nomination, the chance of driving away editors who apply too soon is reduced. Regardless of whether this version is considered or not, my vote was still a support vote for this proposal. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  10:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the support. But I just want to reiterate that what you are suggesting would defeat the entire purpose of the proposal – the current "50 new (valid) article" requirement is specifically for those who self-nominate at WP:PERM. But to your concerns, I would encourage you to look through the data analysis I posted up at WereSpielChequers' Talk page – the gist was that the vast majority of editors I looked at with 20 or more created articles were long-time trusted editors, at least half of whom already had other user rights such as Reviewer and Rollback, and who IMO should not be forced to create 50 articles (which is a seriously high hurdle for most volunteer editors to clear) to ask for Autopatrolled rights. I think one way to satisfy your concerns would be to add the "...at the discretion of the granting administrator" part to the sentence above... But I think the type of concern you are worried about would be a very, very small percentage of PERM requests, and I think the Admins there could quickly catch on to anyone trying to "game the system". Thus, I'm not totally sure "...at the discretion of the granting administrator" language is even necessary (i.e. adding might be redundant)... But further refinements to the exact wording above can certainly be considered, if not here then at WT:Autopatrolled. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:40, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Update: It'll be coming up on one month since I originally suggested this change at WT:Autopatrolled next week. In that time, there has so far been no objections to this proposal. Thus, it is very likely I am going to take the initiative and change the number from 50 to 25 valid articles at WP:Autopatrolled, probably late next week. Nonetheless, any other comments here (or at WT:Autopatrolled) are welcome in the meantime. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:45, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

How to write on moral/ethical acts/behaviors that are treated negatively today but not during the time of the original topic?

Title shortened from "How to write on moral/ethical acts/behaviors that are treated negatively today but not during the time of the original topic?" - Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Brought back original section title, for precision. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Please don't shorten section titles in talk pages by just chopping off some words. Undesirable refactoring. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:13, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Shortened again, as breaking TOC & overloading edit summaries Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that is a circumstantial approach: the treatment of the topic warrants it being defined properly in the section title. Find consensus on a short version of the section title before implementing. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion continued at WT:VPP#Bad heading --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

There's been a very very slow edit war issue at Revenge of the Nerds (a movie produced in 1984), involving a scene where a male character tricks a female character into having sex with him by disguising himself as her current boyfriend, and she doesn't learn this until after that fact. Now, in today's society, where we place strong emphasis on consent and woman's rights, this clearly would be considered sexual assault or similar, but at the time this film was produced - in a period where the idea of "free love" was still popular - no one would have batted an eye, and laughed at the comedy. In the article, the issue has been whether to treat the scene within the plot summary in modern terms, calling it as sexual assault or similar, or to handle the situation as at the time the work was produced and simply say that she was tricked.

I can see this being an issue on other topic areas as moral and ethics of the mainstream culture change, so the broader question is that when writing on a topic that is "historical" (done and completed in the past), do we apply modern moral and ethics aspects in describing acts and attitudes that would be taken negatively today, or stay to the morals/ethics that were in place at that time? My gut says the latter , based on our handling of censorship, in that we don't ignore or attempt to wave away how society worked at earlier times if those attitudes are very contrary to society's attitudes today. However, this seems like a point for more discussion that can affect WP at large. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

In the specific case of this film, I think it clear that when describing the plot we should relate "just the facts" without shoehorning the words "sexually assaults her by tricking..." into the synopsis. If RS have commented on that part of the storyline, discussing it as a rape scene, that can go in the article but in the Reception section. Is that the general consensus at that article?

With regard to the more general question, is this not the approach we already take? Consider the article on pederasty: in many cases this would count as paedophilia in modern mores. However the article describes it factually. Though it should not condone, there is no need to condemn. BethNaught (talk) 16:41, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes on the first point: I was about to add that my question in no way precludes adding more recent sources that describe the scene as assault in the article's section on the film's reception; just whether that should be carried into the plain plot description or not. Past discussions on the article agree to avoid shoehorning in the sexual assault aspect but we keep getting random IP and editors that put it back in, and I'm wondering if in the broader scope can codify something like this to establish why we keep it that way. --MASEM (t) 16:44, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I have to ask whether our article needs to mention that particular scene in the first place. It's a fairly minor plot element that could easily be omitted. Blueboar (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Just reflect the sources. It isn't usually that difficult and I do not understand why this is a potential policy issue. If it was once described as A but is now described as B, and assuming both sources are otherwise reliable, then show both and perhaps include an explicit date attribution rather than just relying on the citation. It is not our role to pick/choose between them - some things, such as value judgements, have to be left to the reader. - Sitush (talk) 23:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that as with most films that aren't thought provoking, they don't get a detailed plot summary in any reliable source, but this scene stands out today and has been commented in secondary sources published in recent years that calls the scene out as a sexual assault. So we have no sources (beyond the primary work itself) against the weight of the secondary sources that are more recent. And it seems wrong to give these sources that weight when it wasn't an issue before. --MASEM (t) 00:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I understand now. Don't those modern secondaries even, say, (paraphrase) "this was used to be considered A but now is B"? If not, then they may not even be reliable because they're not approaching the subject "in the round". Tbh, and with no knowledge of the subject, this looks like a possible candidate for the US-centric feminist studies agenda and that is often dodgy territory, filled more with op-eds and confirmation bias than true academia. - Sitush (talk) 00:24, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

You can see some of the sources that have been used to try to justify this addition from this diff . I have yet had a chance to look at the ones available to see if they comment on what the situation was at the time of the film, but I would certainly agree that if they do say "Then it was X, now it is Y", that's more justification for keeping the plot summary as "then", and making sure to address the "now" as post-release reception/analysis within the article. It is not a point to ignore if RSes today are calling it something far more extreme than it was originally, but we should be placing that in a proper perspective within the article. --MASEM (t) 00:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

It was removed for a more general statement at one point , but it was added back in to shoehorn the assault angle . --MASEM (t) 00:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not very happy at the way the original question is worded ("...in today's society, where we place strong emphasis on consent and woman's rights, this clearly would be considered sexual assault or similar ...). I'm pretty sure that in real life this would have been considered rape (by that or another name), then as now. I see the difference more in attitudes to fictional representations of such actions, just as extreme violence, homicide, illegal acts by law enforcers, etc. are regularly portrayed in a positive light, where such actions would not be tolerated in real life. I agree, though, that it is not generally Misplaced Pages's job to make moral or legal classifications of such fictional acts (as opposed to reporting on critics' judgements). We don't, and shouldn't make such classifications in the synopsis of The Miller's Tale, either. I think this distinction is also relevant to the more general question. --Boson (talk) 02:24, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not meant to phrase it to sound that way, and you're right in that assessment. --MASEM (t) 16:38, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

How about a "Controversies" section?

For a well-known extreme example of this issue, compare with how changing mores are handled in Lewis Carroll. His hobbies included photographing nude prepubescent girls (normally posed outside, with parental permission and often presence). Today he and the parents would be locked up and the girls would be seized by child-protective services. Back then, it was considered entirely normal by everybody involved. Choor monster (talk) 17:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

(tangent) We need fewer "controversies" sections, not more. A controversy is an "action of disputing or contending one with another" (per OED) or an "argument that involves many people who strongly disagree about something" (per Merriam-Webster). Far too many "blog X or commentator Y said this about Z" are classified as controversies on Misplaced Pages. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

And this really isn't a "controversy" in that there's an active thing going on, just that it is a point of contention that is used to show how that film and others like it from that period had several issues (as judged by today's standards). Definitely a paragraph for an existing "reception" section but no need for a controversy section. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

It is a controversy when individuals still believe today that the phrase, "tricked into having sex", wouldn't be considered rape in 1984. And that part of the movie was cringe-worthy to audiences at the time. But most important here is the fact that when one googles "Revenge of the Nerds" and "Rape" there are multiple hits about the topic. Not including it within the Misplaced Pages article just makes Misplaced Pages appear dated and behind on the issue.MurderByDeadcopy 17:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Google hit #1's site terms start out with "Birth.Movies.Death. makes no representations or warranties as to the accuracy of the Content." That's not what we call a "reliable source". It only gets worse from there with the "sources" that make a fuss about this "technically" being a rape in 2015, when it was merely a plot device in a 1984 comedy. This is simply ridiculous. Doc talk 08:46, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Rape was used as a plot point. This is a huge problem that John Hughes choice to do over and over and over again in teen movies no less. You may consider rape ridiculous, but I guarantee it isn't. Rape is a pervasive problem in the world and should not be ignored as you seem so intent on doing. Movies with rape scenes like these have only caused more individuals getting raped. This laissez–faire attitude needs to go and the least Misplaced Pages can do is acknowledge these facts. See add'l Google search: MurderByDeadcopy 20:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

No one is questioning that since that film (and others like it), the behavior they demonstrate does not resonate well with modern moral standards and the new seriousness to which we take issues like rape; this should be discussed in the reception of the film in the article. But in terms of describing the word, in no way are the attitudes of the characters on screen react as if this is a serious crime, but instead as a prank and a plot point. (To that end, that's why the issue now is highlighted). In this case, recognizing that the film did not make a major issue on this being a crime is a remnant of very loose sexual attitudes at the time. As such, to avoid POV-ness, we should not be trying to push the point that what happened was was a crime in the plot summary of the film when the film did not treat it as such, those easily should be discussing that in the reception. (Consider, for example, in many many many action films that the hero kills henchmen left and right - what would be real life murder and manslaughter changes - but ignored for the fiction of the work) --MASEM (t) 21:03, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

1984 was not a time of "very loose sexual attitudes." This was a time when everyone was becoming very aware of HIV/AIDS. The fact is that plot point in "Revenge of the Nerds" is rape. This "prank" involves the raping of a woman. What happened here is a crime. The bigger crime would be to not acknowledge that it was rape. Is Misplaced Pages now promoting rape culture by misleading our readers about the truth. I'll even go one further, if internet blogs were around in 1984, this plot point would have been a much bigger known issue at the time of the release of this movie. FYI - I would also have no problem calling the hero a murderer because that's exactly what it is. MurderByDeadcopy 22:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind this is a work of fiction, so the "truth" is only what is on the big screen, which is why it is important to frame it as it is presented and taking into account the lack of opinions on this at the time of the film's release. Applying moral judgement to a work when that moral judgement is not present in the work is a violation of NPOV. --MASEM (t) 23:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

For me the question is not what the attitudes were at the time of society in general, but that of Hollywood and of the target audience of the movie, and how those compare to Hollywood and of the comparable target audience of the movie today. I actually wonder whether those attitudes have changed, but that is my speculation and not suitable for a Misplaced Pages article unless a RS has written about it. For NPOV in specifically in the plot discussion, I would suggest not using sexual assault (violation of NPOV toward seriousness) or trick (violation of NPOV away from seriousness) but rather as stark down the middle as possible (NPOV) such as "X posed as Y to have sex with Z. Z discovered this after the sex and was angry at X." or some such without labeling what happened. Then any RS commentary belongs in a Reception section. Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem of this strange plot device is compounded with the "was angry at X" part because in the film, Betty's anger at being deceived lasts only a few seconds before she "forgives" Louis... for being so good in bed. This cannot be considered a "rape", especially when viewing it in the lens of the culture of the time. Films such as Losin' It, Porky's, Fraternity Vacation, e.g. ad nauseum, attest to the decidedly different attitudes towards sex in the early 1980's in mainstream film comedies. It was a different time, and is in the genre of a "sex comedy". It is a terrible plot device that the viewer must suspend disbelief for. It makes no sense that she wouldn't know that it wasn't Stan (a man she'd been dating for some time) until Louis pulled the mask off, only then to discover that he was actually better than Stan. It's not supposed to make sense: it's an '80's comedy. We can't rightfully call that scene a "rape" in the context in which it is presented. Doc talk 07:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The general question

Title shortened from "The general question of historical behavior and changing standards" - Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:33, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The specific case mentioned above is quite interesting, but I would like to discuss the general question. At one time, large numbers of people had no problem with owning slaves. Today it is generally considered to be a bad thing. At one time, blasphemy was considered on of the worst behaviors possible. Now we call it "The Internet". :) I fully expect that in the future society will look upon the currently acceptable practice of commenting on someone being sent to prison with a joke about prison rape as being unacceptable behavior, just as the attitudes of society have recently changed about jokes involving rape by deception. Without getting into the specifics of the examples above, my general question is this:

How should we handle pages about behavior that happened under different societal standards than we hold today?

There will almost always be modern sources condemning practices that used to be acceptable, but sources that condemn practices that used to be acceptable while mentioning that they used to be acceptable are far rarer, and sources that specifically mention that what was once unacceptable is now acceptable are rarer still. This means that simply following the weight of the sources could give a false impression as to whether the people mentioned in articles about the past (some of whom are still alive, thus raising BLP concerns) violated societal norms at the time the behavior occurred. How should we handle this? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a more succinct way to phrase what I was getting at --MASEM (t) 02:19, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

From an editor's POV, I have often found that in historical articles, even BIO articles. Things like the name of Lovecraft's cat, for example, wasn't a problem. Tesla was at the very least, a "social" anti-Semite. Catholics taught Jews killed Jesus until 1962.At their respective times, those were "acceptable" things. Conversely, single mothers, children out of wedlock and homosexuality were things that were "unacceptable" and not a big a deal now. So first of all, it goes both ways.

Historical transposition (which is judging history by modern standards) is a major scholarly no-no, by the way, which is what we risk falling into by not framing these things properly. Therefore, shouldn't it be necessary from an info perspective to give the historical context? We don't seem to have a problem with that on articles that chart the development of a country, an idea, or an institution, so why should it be any different for a person? Yes, it comes across as "apologetic", but again, we see it that way because of historical transposition (which we should not be doing). MSJapan (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@MSJapan: Can you provide any published guidelines (from academic sources) on the best practices for addressing "historical transposition"? It seems to me we could build on these to create a WP Guideline for dealing with this issue here. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 16:54, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Or, I could just see what's out there myself. :-P ... Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 17:14, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

WOOF! there are a lot of uses for that term that do not help here. It is going to take quite a bit of research to find appropriate best practices on this topic. If someone else starts the essay I will help where I can but I am in over my head on the initial research. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 17:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Koala Tea Of Mercy: I see that search term's a mess (maybe it is indeed specialized?), so I went backwards from a definition and found we have an article on this! See Presentism (literary and historical analysis). It's also related to Historian's fallacy. I'll try those as search bases. I also think we need a subsection for this, or a sandbox - this is going to be a sub-sub-thread otherwise, and a pain to navigate. MSJapan (talk) 20:06, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly the situation that my above example is around. I agree we should figure out how to draft something like this into a guideline (not sure if we need policy necessarily). It does sound like there is the general agreement that we avoid presentism/historical transposition in presenting the "primary" aspect of the topic, but certainly not to avoid that in the "secondary" aspect (reception/criticism/etc.) --MASEM (t) 22:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@MSJapan - re: historical transposition. Spot on. This is way below degree level stuff in UK schools and I am astonished that it is a theoretical issue here. - Sitush (talk) 00:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Having given this further thought, this really should be a component of NPOV, because doing this is exactly contrary to neutral presentation. MSJapan (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

re. "this really should be a component of NPOV": Added a section to WP:NPOV to that effect --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, that solved that! It looks good, although the opening sentence is perhaps a bit passive. Now, does it need a policy shortcut, and if so, what should it be and how is that done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etamni (talk • contribs) 11:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to sign that. Thanks Sinebot! Etamni | ✉ | ✓  11:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Created WP:PRESENTISM shortcut (with DAB hatnotes for WP:RECENTISM, a concept with a longer tradition in Misplaced Pages guidance). --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Which page?

And just like that, it was moved to another location by another editor. Etamni | ✉ | ✓  12:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) FYI I've moved it to one of the sub-pages regarding it. The main page explains the high-level concepts, while the others go into specifics such as this case. Stickee (talk) 12:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Options

1. At WP:NPOV policy
2. At NPOV/FAQ page
3. Other? (e.g. WP:NPOV tutorial?)

• Prefer option #1: adding a question to make it fit the format of the FAQ page seems artificial; Also, policy should be clear about it (and it can't be really "derived" from guidance already present in the policy). The new section is short, not really questioned for its applicability, and explains the concept sufficiently to make it work. I don't oppose additional explanations (e.g. at the tutorial page), but think it belongs in the policy. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
• #3. I would say the preferred option is to spin it off into it's own essay page, similar to these ones. Stickee (talk) 13:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Following on from what Masem said ("should be treated descriptively not prescriptively") I've created a spinoff article (Misplaced Pages:Presentism) regarding it and placed the content there which can provide guidance and advice to editors. This is similar to many of the other NPOV-related articles, including WP:COATRACK and WP:CRIT. Stickee (talk) 22:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Also, this first assumes the text in its current form is acceptable at all, which hasn't been answered. Stickee (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Is the addition acceptable in the first place?

The text, as proposed by Francis Schonken, is as follows:

Presentism, judging historical events by current standards, should be avoided. Instead, explain –without undue weight– what reliable sources have said regarding changed standards with respect to the topic. Example: don't hush up the fact that Dvořák's 12th String Quartet was once nicknamed Negro, because of its perceived political incorrectness by today's standards, but find sources that explain when and why the former nickname was abandoned

Thoughts relating to it?

• I'm not too happy with it. Doesn't explain how to talk about it if the sources don't say anything regard "changing standards". Also, as Masem said, we should "certainly not avoid in the "secondary" aspect (reception/criticism/etc.)". Stickee (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Re. "Doesn't explain how to talk about it if the sources don't say anything regard "changing standards"." – then talk about it according to WP:IMPARTIAL (i.e. don't mention changing standards if sources don't). That part was already covered by policy, didn't need a repeat in the new section
  • Re. "we should "certainly not avoid in the "secondary" aspect (reception/criticism/etc.)"" – that is of course addressed by the new proposed text "... explain ... what reliable sources have said regarding changed standards with respect to the topic." --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:47, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Sometimes the sources don't talk about the changing standards with specific aspect to the work in question, though we as editors can clearly see that a more recent viewpoint has been taken because of standards that have changed. (eg I don't believe any of the sources in question on Revenge of the Nerds above necessarily talk about how the 1980s were a different time from today) I think we need some editorial allowance that rests on obvious perceptions of changed standards. Obviously when sourced it is much better for us per NOR, but this is not always possible and I can see some editors going "you can't show sources there were changed standards so we must obviously go with these sources" in the face of the obviousness of the situation. --MASEM (t) 14:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
      • That's however not for policy level: policy should create awareness of the presentism issue, and cannot allow to add personal thoughts for which there is no WP:V, and/or draw in sources that are not directly related to the subject of the article (the WP:NOR aspect). The proposed "change" in the policy is that it allows greater weight for sources that say something about it, while in general such sources are rare, as explained above; and adding an encouragement to go look for such sources even if they're hard to find. For me a tutorial is the right place to give more guidance on how to tackle such issues in various practical settings, but introducing the topic at policy level, without contradicting other core content policy, is imho a first important step. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:33, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
      • FYI this 2009 source gives some background on changing perceptions regarding Revenge of the Nerds and similar films. Yes, I think "I don't believe any of the sources ... on Revenge of the Nerds ... talk about how the 1980s were a different time from today" is too easy: when it's a notable shift in perception/standards/... (in a way that Misplaced Pages should talk about it) then there's usually a source to be found. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:07, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict)My concern is based on extrapolation to an extreme that I believe can happen with an entrenched viewpoint. Taking Revenge of the Nerds again, if in the hypothetical case, the only way that the scene is question is discussed is from recent sources presented it in the light of modern morals without any comment on that the 1980s were a different time: I can see entrenched editors going "Look, this is the only way that scene is described in sources, we must present as such", while common sense of just being aware of the film's presentation and general understanding of views at that time are counter that, but not documented. (For Revenge, however, there are sources that place the time period in context, which you pointed out while I was writing this reply; I'm just giving the hypothetical extreme). I think this current text captures most of the issues, and as policy and/or guideline it should be treated descriptively not prescriptively, but I can still see the potential edit war come from this, and just wonder can try to make sure the extreme case ID'd above is not evoked by the language. --MASEM (t) 15:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
          • I stand by "create awareness" at policy level, & elaborate practical issues in tutorials, essays, guidelines, etc. I don't really work with hypothetical examples when proposing policy text (either there is an issue that can be demonstrated, or we should not elaborate on it in policy), but I can see your point: however for that point no policy addition is necessary. If old sources say a film is good and new sources say a film is bad (without any source noticing the difference in appreciation can be linked to a change in moral standards), then say "source X from 19xx says the firm is good, source Y from 20xx says the film is bad" (and let the reader connect the dots per WP:NPOV). --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

There is also a NOR issue here. We can't say that societal views have changed without sources that note the fact. There could well be disagreement between editors as to whether standards have changed over time. As an example... I don't think people back in the 80s viewed what was depicted in the scene in RotN any differently than people do today. Our views on the scene haven't changed, what has changed is the amount of advocacy from the womens rights movement about scenes like that... I am reminded of an quip I read in the early 80s, about the rise of gay advocacy... it went something along the lines of "the love that once dared not speak its name - now won't shut up!" This quip tells us nothing about societal changes in attitude (whether gays were more or less accepted in the 80s compared to an earlier time) ... what it does tell us is that there was a shift in the amount of advocacy. While once gays hid away in the closet, they were now (in the 80s) coming out and taking pride... and advocating about gay issues. I think a similar rise in advocacy has occurred on many social issues. I don't think societies views on things have changed all that much since the 80s... it's more that we are more outspoken about those things today than we were back then.

Now, others may disagree with my take on all that... which is fine... I only raise it to make a broader point. I don't have a source to support anything I just said. I think my view is correct, but I have no support for my view. so... I could not add any of what I just said to an article... doing so would be an NOR violation. the same applies to contrary opinions that are not supported by sources. Blueboar (talk) 16:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't find this to be a very helpful concept. While we shouldn't judge historical events by current standards, we also shouldn't judge current events by current standards, or historical events by historical standards. We shouldn't judge at all. I think it's easier and more effective to simply view the examples that have been raised through the broader lens of WP:NPOV. If we are writing in a neutrally descriptive manner, the issue of whether cultural norms have changed is not relevant, because our writing shouldn't rely on implicit cultural norms.--Trystan (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Presentism essay

Just expanded WP:Presentism, with "step1/2/3" sections. Thoughts? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Question: add either the {{essay}} or the {{proposed}} template to the WP:Presentism page? I'd be inclined to choose the second. Thoughts? --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

The murderer Gesualdo

Currently the first paragraph of the lede of the article on Carlo Gesualdo reads:

Carlo Gesualdo (Venosa, 30 March 1566 – Gesualdo, 8 September 1613), also known as Gesualdo da Venosa (Gesualdo from Venosa), Prince of Venosa and Count of Conza, was an Italian nobleman, lutenist, murderer and composer of the late Renaissance era.

I'd like to review that in the context of the presentism topic, specifically the third of the four wikilinked qualifiers ("... murderer ...") which imho seems too much of a presentist slant. Ideas?

Note that the topic had been treated at Talk:Carlo Gesualdo#Hmm, but the current version of the article (no longer?) follows the apparent outcome of that discussion. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

As a general point, murder has always been seen as a violation of the Ten Commandments in the Judeo-Christian world. So how is it presentist? Doug Weller (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, at least based on that article, at the time it was clear what happened was considered murder. There's a style issue listing "murderer" among other accomplishments but that's not a presentism issue. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Disagree, it was actually not considered murder at the time afaik (from the sources I read on it before Misplaced Pages existed), that's why I was so surprised by the presentist slant of the Misplaced Pages article. And the presentism seems to be able to convince a casual reader... Well indeed there's a problem here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

How do other sources put it? This 1926 book by Philip Heseltine is titled Carlo Gesualdo, Prince of Venosa, Musician and Murderer. Then there's "American Architect and Architecture - Volume 26 - Page 224 " In 1590 it was the scene of a tragic murder. On the 18th of May of that year, Carlo Gesualdo, the third Prince of Venosa and eighth Count of Consa, murdered hie wife in one of its rooms. The many inhabitants of the various floors were saved American Architect and Architecture - Volume 26 - Page 224 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yqUwAQAAIAAJ 1889 - In 1590 it was the scene of a tragic murder. On the 18th of May of that year, Carlo Gesualdo, the third Prince of Venosa and eighth Count of Consa, murdered hie wife in one of its rooms. The many inhabitants of the various floors were saved ... Doug Weller (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

In what time scale is 1889 closer to 1590 than to 2015? "Contemporary" is for instance the official report produced on 17 October 1590, the next day, which leaves no doubt the gruesome killing was done by Gesualdo. But "murderer" I don't think so (at the time). --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't realise you meant contemporary sources. Just the one? Why would we assume that was the general opinion of murder at that time? Because that's what we should be talking about, not about what an official report says. At that time and in that area, are you saying that such a killing - by anyone- wouldn't be considered murder? Doug Weller (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

"by anyone"? There being no separation of powers, a prince like Gesualdo had something to say about life and death of adulterers in the area where he reigned, also moral judgements about summary execution, torture and/or post mortem mutilation of criminals, personal involvement of the judge and executioner, etc. were somewhat different at the time I believe. That's at least how I heard the story "pre-Misplaced Pages" – seems about time to go looking for that version in reliable sources. Give me some time. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

It is actually a fair question if what we have documented at that time period considered what happened as the crime of murder (the current article suggestions everything that points to that, but that's not necessarily evidence of that fact), or if such activity was "overlooked" in the manner given his position within the ruling class. (It would not be today, obviously). That said, this is also far enough back in time that we may not have any absolute assurance of how the events transpired to the general public, and in such cases, when we can only rely on modern sources, we might be forced to accept those. (Contrast that to the Revenge of the Nerds case as we can easily review the original work to know the intent there). --MASEM (t) 18:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

HTTP vs HTTPS...

Need some clarification...does the fact that WMF went HTTPS thereby mean that we should be changing all external links (like article refs) to non-WMF sites to HTTPS as well? The discussion in Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 120#Should Misplaced Pages use HTTPS by default for all readers? having closed as no consensus for technical reasons would seem to say no, but I'd like a clarification. MSJapan (talk) 09:38, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

We aren't required to. Should we? Probably. --Izno (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Obviously not all external sites support HTTPS. Changing links to such sites would result in broken references. As to the others, I see no reason why not, so long as the certificate is accepted in browsers. For example, https://gpg4win.org/ is broken from the point of view of most users because it uses a self-signed certificate. BethNaught (talk) 13:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

One easy way to deal with this is to install HTTPS Everywhere in your browser and then continue cutting and pasting the URL in the address bar as you always have. If the site supports HTTPS the URL you copy will automatically be an HTTPS URL. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand that, but what I'm trying to get at is a rationale for some mass editing of citations that's been going on for several weeks, without needing to go to ANI for the third time in two weeks about yet another problematic user. MSJapan (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be referencing bender235's conversion of a limited number of links from the http to https protocols. Is that correct? I would support his changes. Not sure what you mean by "get at is a rationale" since it's been explained to you multiple times. HTTPS is simply Better. --Izno (talk) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Reading bender235's talk page, what they're doing seems perfectly reasonable to me since it's limited to sites that support HTTPS. I fail to see why such activity is at all "problematic". BethNaught (talk) 18:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, there was a definite lack of clarity initially, as several editors questioned bender without satisfactory response. As you can see, when I asked, it was initially explained as "WMF decided to do something internally with wiki sites", which has no bearing on citations to external sources not affiliated with WMF. Round about the third go-round, the info was provided, which was after I came here. I would also note that there's also more editing than just HTTP/S changes going on, and template changes and some major citation cleanups are being reported as minor edits. To me, therefore, there are several things going on at once that are not being disclosed. I'm also not sure why we're following an external site's policy here at Misplaced Pages, as I believed we were independent of Google or Web Archive, for example. That's why I'm trying to figure out what the basis for the change is. I see "WMF supports HTTPS for WMF"; I don't see "WMF supports updating all the articles to support HTTPs to external sites", and since it's going to affect every article at least once, this is some major stuff basically being done unilaterally AFAICT. MSJapan (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Unilaterally doing things that improve Misplaced Pages is a good thing. You have yet to explain any downside to changing the link from HTTP to HTTPS on sites that support it. I can tell you the upside, though; HTTPS protects you from some kinds of Internet surveillance. Encrypting your connection with HTTPS stops eavesdroppers from monitoring your communication with a website. Many users access the Internet through open wireless networks in libraries or coffee shops where it a trivial matter for strangers to eavesdrop on what users are reading and writing online. To safeguard our privacy on the Internet, we need to encrypt the web. And that means using HTTPS wherever possible. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:20, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

+1. Took the words out of my conflicted edit. BethNaught (talk) 19:29, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Re "template changes and some major citation cleanups are being reported as minor edits", you might want to start a separate conversation for those, at least so far as they fall outside the scope of the http/https discussion, if you want attention for them. Just a friendly suggestion. Thisisnotatest (talk) 07:23, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, @MSJapan: for telling me about this discussion. Anyhow, just to clear things: we're are not talking about all external links as MSJapan stated, but only Google Books/News and Internet Archive, both of which are not only offering HTTPS but encouraging people to use it for sake of their own privacy. Read, for instance, the New York Times report on IA's announcement back in 2013. Once again, we are only talking about sites that unambigiously support HTTPS. --bender235 (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

And what does "unambigiously support HTTPS" mean? Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:39, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

That means we're talking about sites that offer exactly the same service via HTTPS as they do via HTTP (like YouTube, Google Books, Internet Archive, ...). Or pages that redirect to HTTPS anyways, but some external links on Misplaced Pages are still to HTTP (like Facebook, Twitter, ...). Only those. --bender235 (talk) 07:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• This strikes me as a case of "good intentions, poor execution"... Switching to HTTPS may be a great idea, but making mass edits is almost always seen as being disruptive - especially when other editors don't understand why you are making them. My advice to those who want the switch... slow down and take the time to properly explain what you are doing and why. Go one article at a time. Even the best of ideas do not have to be enacted right this second... so there is no need to rush. Blueboar (talk) 15:05, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

• So, slow down the effort to to something that has a positive benefit and absolutely zero downside... why? I just fixed another couple of hundred pages that contained "a the" errors. I am making mass edits. And I don't really explain why unless someone asks. (my edit summaries just say "Corrected 'a the' error"). Does this made-up "making mass edits is almost always seen as being disruptive" rule apply to my edits as well? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:48, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

If there is a https version of a link then we should use it. It is 2015 after all. Chillum 16:57, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Republication of photos

Subject shortened from "Republication of photos published without authorization of copyright holder, i.e., fair use v. invasion of privacy issues" - Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Does Wiki have a policy for fair use of photos republished which were published without consent of the copyright holder? I haven't found any discussion of this on WP. There appears to be some dispute in the U.S. whether this is covered by fair use of a copyright, or whether the issue of invasion of privacy is a separate issue. For example, we might find that photos hacked from a celebrities private phone or email are news worthy, but either not a fair use for republishing, and/or an invasion of privacy. They could be separate legal issues. In any event, I submit that WP should exceed legal requirements, and not haggle about them.Doctor Franklin (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2015 Doctor Franklin (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The first issue of course being to what extent unauthorized publication changes the copyright holder's rights. I guess it probably does not, which would imply we should treat it as any copyrighted material. Whether the mere unauthorized publication already makes the photos sufficiently newsworthy to make fair use warranted would be tricky (and probably differs on case by case situation - e.g. a presidential candidate snorting cocaine may be different from a child actor making homework; where the news relevance of the latter is unlikely to warrant republication -- NB both fictitious cases). Since that brings up interpretation of whether it is fair use it would already make it tricky, and that does not even start talking about privacy issues. Altogether I would say that we should not touch such material, not even with a 10 foot pole. But I think this would already be covered under copyright guidelines anyway. Arnoutf (talk) 19:14, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Some good analysis of case law is here . But that said, for WP's purpose, we have WP:NFCC#4 - material that is first published by the person that is not considered the copyright holder is not allowed on WP. As a separate point, we'd also not allow copyright images of living persons this way per WP:NFCC#1 atop that, as well as WP:BLP would come into play (photos that were clearly meant to be candid would be eliminated per this.). --MASEM (t) 19:17, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

One right of a copyright holder is the right of first publication. Considering that photography, writing, or music is an art form, the holder of the copyright has the right to publish, or not publish. The question then comes what happens when something is leaked and published? By republishing we could well be violating copyright. I don't see that the issue of invasion of privacy vs. fair use has been resolved in a U.S. court. It could be found that the publication is a fair use, but an invasion of privacy. Assuming that the republication could be considered a fair use, I don't see a policy on republishing photos that may be an invasion of privacy. If so, a policy may need to be created. Understand that there may be a dispute on who holds the copyright. How does one prove to hold the copyright on a selfie? The fact that there could be a legal dispute on who the actual copyright holder is should be considered. If the first publication was not by a RS, that should factor in the decision as well.Doctor Franklin (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd have thought that WP:BLP policy would prohibit the use of "photos hacked from a celebrities private phone or email", regardless of copyright issues. Using hacked personal images hardly seems compatible with the requirement that biographical material must take into consideration "regard for the subject's privacy". AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:27, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)For us on WP it does - NFCC#4 requires that the publication has to be with the approval of the copyright holder. So if the only way something was published was without this approval, it is not usable on WP. This exceeds copyright law as it stands presently. And I would say BLP even supercedes that, making images that were clearly not taken in public places of living persons and first published without authorization as completely inallowable, period. --MASEM (t) 19:32, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

And what if the issue of the legal copyright holder is disputed? If A gives his camera to B, and B takes a picture of A, who owns the copyright? How does A prove he/she holds the copyright to a selfie? WP can publish something that has a disputed copyright holder and wind up in court. Many editors on WP have an agenda which can cloud their judgment about such issues. I think a clearer policy is needed to avoid problems related to copyright and/or invasion of privacy. If the issue of the copyright holder is ambiguous, caution should dictate that the photo not be published on WP. That policy should be more clearly stated to avoid problems.Doctor Franklin (talk) 21:48, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

B taking a picture with A's camera keeps the copyright with B. (This was determined by the case of that monkey taking a photo of themselves with a cameraman's camera, see ); the person doing the shot is the one that is making the artist expression copyright covers. And you'll notice WP was at the center of that one. I will agree that if there is clear dispute of copyright we should avoid it; we just had a case about a photo of the group N.W.A. that we have removed the photo given the dispute over the copyright. However, in terms of policy, its probably best to handle case by case, allowing disputes to be resolved at WP:NFCR or elsewhere. --MASEM (t) 21:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The issue of who the legal copyright holder is goes beyond merely authorship. From the article you cited:

"However, the law in the UK is not quite as straightforward, as the author doesn’t necessarily own the copyright.

For instance, in the film industry the cameraman filming the actors on screen, despite being the “author” of the recording, does not own the copyright of the film. It comes down to who provided the creative effort or significant arrangements. In the case of movies it would be the director or the producer, although often it is ultimately the people who put the money into the project.

It is the amount of effort, arrangement or creative input that is made, which determines copyright."

I believe this is the same in the U.S. Also, there are issues of works for hire or employment, where the photographer/author releases the copyright by contract. That release could also be considered a gift, like if B takes a candid/casual picture with A's camera. The point is that the issue isn't black and white. It is subject to interpretation by common law judges, and could easily lead to legal problems for WP. You are proving the point why a policy is needed to err on the side of privacy.Doctor Franklin (talk) 23:01, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

In the case of a commercial film, under US law, there would pretty much always be a written contract with each creative employee making the production company the owners of all copyrights involved, either on a work-made-for-hire basis or as an assignment as a condition of employment. This would mean that it would in effect be a purchase of the copyright, not a gift. If some small film had no such contracts I am not sure who would be considered the "author" for copyright purposes. I suspect that it would be considered a joint work of quite a few people, the camera operator, the director, and probably the actors, and a derivative work of the separately copyrighted script, which would belong to the script writer(s). But in practice no professional or even semi-pro film would allow this kind of tangle when a contract spelling out the copyright is easy to craft -- I even own a book giving sample contrasts for such cases for use by people who don't want to hire a lawyer. Remember that a copyright can always be transferred by written contract or deed (under US law all transfers must be written). DES 15:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I am thinking specifically of personal photos or recordings. The work could simply be a hacked photo with the authorship or copyright disputed, or be more complicated: A buys the camera, film, and pays for development. A asks B to take a photo. After A has the film processed, A shares the photo with B but keeps the negatives. B then claims copyright, or someone acquires the photo through B claiming copyright, and publishes the photo. (In the digital age, there frequently is no longer film and negatives, but digital enhancement and editing might occur) Then there is fight over who had the copyright originally. Copyright becomes a legal conclusion, and not a fact. The problem with WP is that we have editors who will claim the disputed copyright is a "fact", and not a legal conclusion made by a court. There is a danger here. The policy should be when a work is subject to disputed claims of copyright, especially if not first published by a RS, the work should not be published or removed.Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I forget where I read it, but I am pretty sure that in the case where A is actual copyright owner, B publishes and claims they are the copyright owner, and we as WP use B's work in an otherwise fair use manner without knowing about the situation with A, that we/WP are not at fault for any wrongdoing that A may have towards B, as long as once this situation is made aware to us, we take the proper steps to re-attribute to A instead of B, or anything else that may be an option. Excellent case in point that just came up: there was a photo of the group NWA we had been using that had been redistributed previously by certain agencies acting as if they had permission but for all purposes they did not as proven out in court when the photographer later sued them and won/settled (but with legally asserting he was the copyright owner). When that photographer told us on WP about this, we reviewed the situation to verify this, and then removed the photo since all claims about the bad copyright were proven out. We didn't have any legal obligation to remove under the normal fair use defense, though at the point the photographer said that was his photo that he sells, that hit NFCC#2 (respecting commercial opportunity) and we removed it because of that. This is why we do ask for as much source information as possible and presume non-free for images unless clearly proven otherwise so that we are keeping our nose clean. --MASEM (t) 16:33, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, legal conclusions about copyright will change based upon slightly different facts. We might have a problem with WP editors being at fault or in collaboration with other parties looking to profit from some scandal somehow. If the issue is invasion of privacy, the damage is more than just changing the attribution of the copyright holder on the photo. (Think of the phone hacks of Jennifer Lawrence and others). Invasion of privacy is tort, which means potential legal liability in many jurisdictions and countries. Edit warring over the issue might result in repeated republications each carrying liability. The policy should be clearer. Essentially, the copyright needs to be verifiable, which is a core WP pillar.Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's put one thing that is absolutely clear: if someone uploaded an image that clearly was meant as a private/candid image and there's no evidence that, for example, it may be self-uploaded image of the uploader themselves or that the uploader had any ability to take that photo, we'd deleted it straight away under BLP concerns, not copyright (even though that itself is another reason to delete). But again, we do require good-faith assumption of copyright claims and prior publication otherwise; we do find cases where there's obvious falsehoods and deal with those as necessary. This is not spelled out word for word in policy, but is captured by NFCC for all purposes. --MASEM (t) 17:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem relates back to RS. If something is first published in a non-RS, a sleazy tabloid or website, why is WP republishing at all? Why assume good-faith copyright claims to a disreputable source? WP standards need to be higher than base legal requirements to avoid errors. The policy should reflect that as well and not simply be an unwritten rule which some editors will ignore.Doctor Franklin (talk) 17:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, granted we have nothing explicitly related to "images taken from non/weak-RS or tabloid sites", though I would say in practice we do not allow these and when they are found they are challenged and removed as appropriate. I would be open though to adding language to WP:IUP and/or WP:NFC that alludes to images taken from websites that do not have a reputation of respect for privacy or copyright should not be used on WP. --MASEM (t) 17:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for these. WP:IUP is a bit mushy, " A snatched shot of a celebrity caught in an embarrassing position in a public place may well be acceptable to the community". What does "snached" mean? That it is acceptable to steal photos from celebrities and post them on WP? WP:NFC is clear that leaked content should not be republished on WP, but needs stronger language on the issue of disputed copyright, "In rare cases however, non-free content may have been originally "leaked" and never subsequently published with the copyright holder's permission—such content must not be included in Misplaced Pages." This results in circular arguments about who holds the copyright, which until a court decides the issue is a legal conclusion and not a fact. This needs to be broadened to exclude content from dubious sources. If the publisher is not considered respectable, the presumption should be against republication.Doctor Franklin (talk) 18:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, "snatched" is a slang-ish term but it doesn't mean stolen in the context, just taken without knowledge (but as the phrase notes, when you are in public, you have no expectation of privacy). I did change that to a less-slangy phrase. As for NFC, it's a case-by-case because we do have to remember that sometimes legal challenges are not always legit. If a person attempts to sue another claiming they own copyright on a work when in reality the sued person truly owns the copyright and the suer is simply bitter, and we on WP are reasonably assured that the copyright owner is not lying, then we'd unlikely remove the image just because its copyright is challenged. Remember that we can only do as good as what is readily visible to us, using tools like Google Image Search and the like to try to verify such claims. We know we likely have accepted NFC that are erronously copyrighted, but the way our processes and our disclaimers are arranged, we are is little legal trouble as long as there's a route to remove those with legit challenges. (This goes back to the NFCC#4 - we only accept material that has been previously published as this makes us one-step removed from a copyright violation if that publication was in fact illegal as long as we react appropriate once known. We don't allow NFCC of unpublished material in any way so that we do not become the copyright violators) --MASEM (t) 19:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

So if a Pulitzer prize winning journalist wrote in a peer acclaimed work that a particular photo was a private photo never intended for publication which was "borrowed" and then sold to a tabloid, WP should accept that evidence of a false claim of copyright and delete the photo? Not everyone chooses to sue over such issues, but it doesn't change who the actual copyright holder is.Doctor Franklin (talk) 20:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

This is the one place that while I think the idea is between-the-lines at IUP it is not spelled out: the claim of a tabloid on a copyrighted image is going to be one of huge question because tabloids are very very rarely RSes to begin with and many employ questionable practices when it comes to attribution, etc. If we can only verify that the image came from the tabloid, there must be very very strong reason to have to use that image, otherwise we'd likely delete it, with or without knowing if this was a stolen photo. On the other hand, if a respectable news source like Time or NYTimes did the same, we'd probably need to become aware of the copyright issue before we'd remove it. But there are things that we simply can't know unless we are told about it. --MASEM (t) 20:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The case I am referring to the copyright was claimed by a tabloid, but then other possibly more respected publication REPUBLISHED the content based upon fair use, NOT based upon their claim of copyright. My direct question remains, does WP accept the reporting of a Pulitzer prize winning journalist that a tabloid first published the content without holding the copyright? Is that sufficient?Doctor Franklin (talk) 21:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, it is going to be case by case. Based on this (in which the rightful copyright owners won a suit against a 3rd party publication that used a fair use defense to publish the photos that they got from a paparazzi), the legal case will still be evaluated as a fair use test. In the case of the publication, they failed all 4 tests of the fair use system (which the above link nicely describes). WP would never allow use of these images under the conditions that that publication got them (from a wedding that was known to be private, of identifyable people, from a questionable source, and only to show that there was a wedding, so BLP and NFCC violations all over the place). But I cannot say that if WP found itself using images that someone else illegally published before the copyright owner could that we'd automatically remove it, assuming that NFCC and BLP are met. An illegally published image may end up being the subject of commentary, and so while the original publication was wrong, it may be within NFCC to use that image here snce we can meet the tests for educational use, portion of work used (we require reduced image sizes), and impact on market ; the commercial use aspect depends on exactly the nature of the work so that will be case-by-case. --MASEM (t) 21:17, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

So regarding this photo, copyright claimed by the National Inquirer June 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/Gary_Hart#/media/File:Donna_Rice_and_Gary_Hart.jpg Pulitzer prize winning journalist, Richard Ben Cramer wrote “It was Donna's camera, and Donna's picture-never intended for public...well public anything! She never did let the negative out of her possession. It was always her picture, her property-which is partly what would gall her so when it made its very public debut on the front page of the National Enquirer. (The Enquirer had the nerve to claim copyright on the photo.)” (“What It Takes” (1992), pg. 437) Does that photo belong on WP because it is interesting to the public, or do copyright and privacy issues prevail? Doctor Franklin (talk) 21:47, 20 August 2015 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor Franklin (talk • contribs) 21:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

In considering the discussion here, the fact that the photo itself is critically notable (that it ended Hart's campaign), means that our use of it would likely fall under fair use (educationally talking about it ending the campaign, the commercial impact of the photo was long ago completed due to ending Hart's campaign, we aren't using the full size image), even if the photo was illegally published in the first place. That said, I do think the photo violates NFCC#8 in that while the existence of the photo is important to Hart's campaign article, it adds nothing that we can't say in text ("A photo of Hart with Rice led to the end of Hart's campaign.") But its removal would not be predicated on the copyright issue because of the fact that the photo costed a political career. --MASEM (t) 22:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Factually, it didn't end his campaign. He was forced to suspend the campaign in May 1987 by the Washington Post. It was not because of the Donna Rice photo which was published the following month. Rather than being educational, it is more properly categorized as misinformation: it is being used on WP to promote something which is factually incorrect. Matt Bai wrote about this in his recent book, "All The Truth Is Out".Doctor Franklin (talk) 22:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Even if the story has changed about the photo, it still remains an artifact tied to the end of his campaign, so the potential for the education use remains there. --MASEM (t) 22:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Only the story hasn't changed about the photo. It does represent a collective false memory encouraged by some involved in the news coverage at the time: "Years later, most Americans who lived through the scandal would recall, erroneously, that the iconic photo had ended Hart's candidacy. The truth was that it didn't appear until weeks after the fact and had nothing to do with Hart's aborted campaign" Mat Bai, "All The Truth Is Out" pg. 164. If the purpose is to educate, it might be far better for WP to report that Hart left the 1988 campaign because all of the women in his life were being harassed by media reporters, that he reportedly was followed to the house of a woman in D.C. after giving the Democratic Party's response to Ronald Reagan's weekly radio address Dec. 20, 1986 and had his picture taken there (months before he announced his second run for president), and that Ben Bradlee of the Washington Post intended to publish that story if Hart remained in the campaign. (See Cramer, "What It Takes" pg. 473-4.) If the purpose is to educate readers, we should expect to see that on Hart's WP page. It isn't there. Nor did that photo cause Hart to cease leading Jesse Jackson in national polls 2-1 and everyone else in the field by 4-1 immediately after suspending his campaign in May 1987 (See Cramer, "What It Takes" pg. 721), or after he returned to the race in December 1987. (See Cramer, "What It Takes" pg. 810) The photo may be considered an artifact tied to media coverage of his campaign, but it certainly didn't end his campaign. Using the photo to promote that myth is simply disinformation or propaganda, not education.Doctor Franklin (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

And what of privacy and BLP?Doctor Franklin (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The BLP/privacy aspect appears moot because this looks like a photo take in a public space (a marina or dock of some type, and google searching doesn't establish where); we'd need stronger evidence this was a private location since it is out of doors. It also is the fact they are posed for picture as opposed to something candid or taken with a mega-zoom lens that also implies they knew this photo was being taken. So again, we would not immediately delete on the sole basis of violating BLP. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

BLP has a presumption in favor of privacy and avoiding prolonging victimization. Why then presume that a stolen photograph was taken in a public place? Are all docks and marinas public places? What difference does it make if the image is published as the result of a telephoto lens or a stolen photograph? How did that change Donna Rice's expectation of privacy when she spontaneously jumped in Hart's lap? Should Rice have fairly known that this photo would get stolen and her reputation tarnished as a result? A presumption of privacy and avoiding prolonging victimization should weigh heavily in the policy and its application.Doctor Franklin (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

If the Hart photo publication ended at the National Inquirer, even if the impact of that photo affected his presidential run, I would agree we'd use more caution because likely the photo would not be so iconic. But it was published over and over and over again in mainstream sources, and through that it entered the national view as an iconic photo, even if the photo's origins were illegal (w/ NI claiming copyright). For us, as educational work, we're looking at the photo as its value as representing that iconic status (even if in actuality it wasn't the photo that did Hart in), and put weight on using that within fair use relative to the damage that was done by the NI. (Remember, it is NI that certainly committed the certain copyright theft by claiming copyright; every other reuse is a question of whether fair use applies or not in the reuse of the photo now published).

As for privacy, we have to judge as best we can from the circumstances around this picture as outside ID'ing Hart and Rice, I can't find when this was reportedly taken and where. Most docks and wharfs are public, and the fact there's a boat in the bg of the shot doesn't suggest it is it offlimits. They are both posing as opposed to a shot taken candidly. But let's also consider that BLP is meant to be used to prevent damage by WP to living persons. At this point in time, there is no way that our republishing of the photo is going to change the damage and situation regarding Hart from about 20 years ago. If a currently running candidate had the same situation today,, where such a photo came out and with all factors being equal (apparently public space, posed shot, photo stolen, etc.) but the situation had not been fully explored by the press, we definitely would take caution on that. Here, there's no need - what's done is done. Our use of this photo is not impacting either Hart's or Rice's present privacy beyond what has already happened. --MASEM (t) 16:12, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

To add one more thing, even if the photo is now known to not have ended his campaign, the fact that there was a point in time that that photo was tied to that aspect makes it a historically relevant image. Obviously, in the article on Hart's campaign (the other place where the photo is being used), it should be be documented as such.

That said, reviewing both images uses, I am nominating that for deletion under NFCC#8/NFCC#1. But I don't think we can argue at this time, so far away from the event and personal affects already done, that BLP or the like applies. --MASEM (t) 16:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

WP privacy policy is beyond if "republishing of the photo is going to change the damage and situation". The policy is to not continue victimization. By continuing to publish a dubious photo is WP continuing victimization? Does that somehow help either Hart or Rice in their present pursuits? As regard to the photo itself, could anyone in the background have taken this photo through the pier pilings? If not, the photo should be considered private.Doctor Franklin (talk) 16:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Whatever damage to their reputation was done long long ago, and its still historically important that while we can remove the picture, you cannot remove the fact that this picture existed and the situation between the two existed. It has been the subject of many many many sources, and the situation has been proven out. In addition: considering that we absolutely cannot deny that Hart and Rice had been together based on how many times this has been established in sources, this photo does no further compromising beyond that: it's not a lewd shot, they are in perfectly acceptable poses, etc. The only thing that the photo had been taken for was this proved (at that time) the two were together, which later was corroborated. This is not continued victimization when it has been long documented, and its information easily found from other sites than WP. --MASEM (t) 16:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's do two steps back. There is a single case where a stolen photo was republished many times, including in main stream news, and that photo has entered the public consciousness. This seems like a fairly extreme case. Perhaps this photo may be admissible, perhaps not under fair use criteria. But I hope everyone agrees that this case is extremely rare, if not unique

This case is unique in that allegations of CIA involvement were made and published. It is now rare (today) in that it involved old style film and negatives which proved Donna Rice's copyright claim. Modern cases will be harder to prove due to digital photography not leaving such proof.Doctor Franklin (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The proposal in the discussion was much broader; i.e. that any stolen photo even published in a single (borderline) reliable source would be admissible under fair use (put in extreme words). So it appears that we are now arguing that an extreme case that may 'just' justify fair use is an argument for a blanket guideline allowing much more dodgy cases in without further discussion. Does not sound like a food idea to me. Arnoutf (talk) 16:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree the broad situation is something that has to be treated case by case, and, except for considering the reliability of a source (like the National Inquirer) went evaluating questionable claims of copyright, this is all reflected in policy already with the appropriate amount of consensus-based input and IAR as needed. --MASEM (t) 17:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The proposal is that we need better policy related to accepting photos for republication from dubious sources. The alleged copyright from the Enquirer was never disclosed when the photo was accepted. Someone appears to have just ass/u/me-d that the photo was first published in a RS. Then once it is established a photo was first published improperly then what? Does WP just follow rely on a questionable fair use defense, or does WP follow a higher standard for the encylopedia?Doctor Franklin (talk) 19:24, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I have just added language to IUP in legal considerations that when dealing with sources of unreliable or dubious nature that copyright claims are not always up to snuff. But it still ends that we can't force a rule and can only deal case-by-case. --MASEM (t) 19:34, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The photo was published in 1987 by the Enquirer along with the story that Hart had asked Rice to marry him. The photo was published in support of that story as a kind of innuendo by photo that some hanky-panky had occurred between the two that both have always denied, i.e., that Hart was a womanizer, and Rice a bimbo. Because of that photo how many people now know that Rice first met Hart at rocker Don Henley's house with his wife present? How many people know that Rice was talking to Hart about fundraising, and that "Rock musicians represent a rich vein of financial support since, under the law, they could perform at benefit concerts for the candidates, and each ticket was treated as an individual contribution. Thus the candidate could report 20,000 contributions of $10 apiece rather than an illegal one of $200,000. And each ticket could qualify for Federal matching funds." http://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/09/us/courting-danger-the-fall-of-gary-hart.html?pagewanted=all That photo created a very different public image of their official relationship. It was never intended for publication. Its publication created victims. Its continued republication therefore must be presumed to continue victimization. If you are not the victim, you cannot speak for her.Doctor Franklin (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

This is becoming a very different question on specifically BLP, and this is the wrong venue for that. But I will stress - that financial and privacy damage was well and done by the point that WP was around, much less the inclusion of that photo (uploaded in 2011). It is very very difficult to argue there's a BLP violation from that photo. I'd recommend you ask specifically on this photo at WP:BLP/N if you feel that it is a BLP violation. --MASEM (t) 19:34, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

From the start, I have noted that there is also a privacy issue to republishing a photo which was published without the copyright holder's consent. That privacy aspect may affect fair use, but it would also remain as an additional legal and moral issue. I have posted the issue on WP:BLP/N as advised.Doctor Franklin (talk) 21:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Moving old userspace drafts into the AFC format

On policy grounds, would there be any objections if I were to move old userspace drafts (about 48k in total at Category:Userspace drafts created via the Article Wizard) if the editor hasn't been active for, say six months, to draftspace and then tagging with an AFC header? Those articles pre-date the AFC process and wouldn't be eligible under G13 but would they then be eligible in six months if there's no further editing there. (It's sort of bypassing the G13 requirement that the article was created under the AFC process). Otherwise, the only options seem to be for those articles are (1) take them to MFD; (2) make them "live" if they are good enough or (3) adopt them in my ownspace and work on them there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:12, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes I think I would object to such a mass move without wider discussion. However I am not sure that it is accurate that such drafts do in fact predate AfC. I thought that the Article Wizard was part of AfC from the start of its existence. I could be wrong about that. Three is a 4th option, leave them alone until someone wants to work on them. Are they causing any problems where they are? Note also that not all userspace drafts were created via the wizard. DES 15:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The article wizard page dates from 2009. The AFC project page dates from 2007. I'm not sure whether all uses of the Wizard can reasonable be considered "under" the AfC project, however. DES 15:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose as inconsequential and possibly disruptive. People may have very good reasons for doing userspace drafts, and unless we know their intentions with them, we should leave them alone. Also, has no bearing on mainspace articles, so it's mostly just rearranging the plates in the cupboards; an inconsequential organizational issue which has nothing to do with presentation to the readership, and thus time better spent doing something else, ESPECIALLY since a blanket move could upset a significant number of editors who like their drafts exactly where they are TYVM. --Jayron32 16:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

New essay on use of historical paintings and portraits

I just moved a new essay, Misplaced Pages:Historical portraits and pictures, into main project space from an earlier userspace version of mine. While it's so far just my personal views, I believe it might develop into a guideline on image use some day, if there's interest. Comments welcome. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I took the liberty of rephrasing the lead and the "Do's" section -- hopefully in accord with your intent. Thanks. Collect (talk) 16:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe for the image captions to explain how these images relate to your classification. I know its sorta that the image start within is meant as the example but because the text is short and images packed a bit tight, it is hard to see what you mean by each. --MASEM (t) 16:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this together, I'll read it with more time later. The "Do Bees" and "Don't Bees" is where I stopped a quick read, when I got to: "Infoboxes do not need images. If the image does not help the infobox, leave it out." Many readers and editors probably like or appreciate the images in an infobox, and an infobox seems almost incomplete, to me, without one. An image takes you into the article just a very-split-second sooner, and creates a context in some form. I have no idea if a policy exists or not about infobox images but I wouldn't think it'd be leaning towards the side of less inclusion and not more. Maybe someone is gabbing about one now and 99 percent of us would never know it (the dozens of talk page - does it come close to 100? that focus on making rules and regs here are scattered hither and yon and often double-back on themselves). But if I were writing that sentence it would go something like, to paraphrase yours, "Infboxes usually look better with images, so please add them. If the image does not assist the reader to appreciate and/or context the subject, please leave it out." Is this okay as a rewording, or is there a middle-ground? Thanks again. Randy Kryn 16:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we should shift this discussion to the essay's talkpage, do you mind if I copy your posting over there? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:46, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Expert-subject

I think being totally stuck unable to find sources for an article should be a valid reason to add {{Expert-subject}} to the top of that article. I think an expert in the article's subject is more likely to be able to find reliable sources for the article. That's why I added {{Expert-subject}} to Double circulatory system. It seems to be working. Dr. Nikhil P. Patil has convinced me at Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Double circulatory system that maybe reliable sources can be found. Blackbombchu (talk) 03:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Bad heading

Topic not about Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, but about the layout of this page moved to WT:VPP#Bad heading --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:08, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Please could someone trim the very (the disruptively-) long heading, above, which is bloating both the ToC and edit summaries? My attempts to do so have been reverted. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:28, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

FYI - Pigsonthewing is referring to: WP:VPP#How to write on moral/ethical acts/behaviors that are treated negatively today but not during the time of the original topic?... While that heading is long, I don't find it disruptively long. Blueboar (talk) 12:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Blueboar, see also above, short discussion directly under section title. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Note: Having restored the above by revert I now restore FS's comment Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

He's now moved it to the top of this section, rendering the above nonsensical; and I have undone his hatting of my comment here (I'd told him earlier today to stop editing my comments). Now can someone fix the over-long heading above, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I think it's annoying in the page history, less so in the TOC. Poor judgment, yes. The heading is not meant to be an opening sentence. Disruptive? I don't know, depends on your definition I suppose, but annoying and poor judgment should be enough to change a heading. Location of this thread is a separate question, but more significant misplacement of VP threads is widespread and generally ignored. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:03, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

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