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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Az1568 (talk | contribs) at 06:15, 8 August 2006 (Re: vandalism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives
January 2006–March 2006 April 2006–June 2006 June 2006–July 2006

Barbara Bauer

Hi. I read the info at the link you posted with the latest Barbara Bauer edit, and find it difficult to see that it quite applies here. At the time the sentence about the Google search result was written, it was easily verified by doing a Google search - in fact, the SWFA list was briefly #1 on some of the Google servers. This was reported in several comments on the Making Light site around May 27th . Making Light was pretty much ground zero for the controversy at the time, and the thread made numerous mentions of the Googlebombing in progress, both explicitly and implicitly. Is it truly the case that these comments are inadmissible, and that Google itself was inadmissible at the time, in a factual claim about the Google search itself? The fact of the Googlebombing is not particularly in dispute; cf. several reverted article edits by (presumably, from context) Bauer herself. (The username Cannoliq matches Bauer's posted email address, the claims in the historical edits seem to match things said by Bauer elsewhere, and the anonymous IP edit is similar in some respects to the Cannoliq ones.) As of today, the SFWA list is the #3 result, which has been the case for several weeks at least in my personal experience. Right or wrong, the concerted effort of large numbers of people to link Bauer to the list in search results is a legitimate part of her notability, I think, as it speaks to the degree of rancor Bauer incurred, deserved or otherwise.

Perhaps I'm off base here, but it seems that the bar on some of the sourcing for this article is set impossibly high, beyond the reach of facts or common sense. See, for example, Jules' reply to your point about the Usenet dating. Can I perhaps persuade you to research this a bit further and offer guidance on acceptable sourcing for the specific circumstances? Several people have done extensive research on what was said where and when, but I'm a little unclear (as are others, most likely) on which if any such citations will pass muster, and why or why not. It also seems that pretty much everyone involved is heartily sick of edit wars and incivility, and consequently hesitate to do anything likely to unleash another round of unpleasantness. Thanks! Karen 05:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the great edit! It's much cleaner than mine. The more detailed reference format kind of confuses me, so I'm grateful that you took the time to make it all consistent, and work out the best way to present the relevant citations. Karen 03:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Sorry to bother you, but things are getting out of hand again over on the Talk:Barbara Bauer page, especially at the Verifiability and Blog citing guidelines sections. In the former, Marky48 is attacking the edit on the basis of a) reading in things that aren't there, and b) drawing the conclusion that if there's no citation of the links list or the PublishAmerica connection, the whole paragraph is invalid and an attack. (These happen to be two links that you removed as unnecessary, but I haven't told Mark that.) In the other section, he's essentially calling one editor a liar, and accusing another of "bullying insulting trollery." Sometimes a kind but corrective word from an admin gets Mark to calm down and ease off on the attacks for a while. Is there any chance you could stop by and give it a try? Thanks! Karen | Talk | contribs 05:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's an interesting response. I do like your most recent edit. The only thing I would mention in that connection is that the only evidence that Barbara Bauer has ever placed any books for clients is a) the front page of her web site, which generally provides no details, and b) claims made in several unsourced edits to the article (some anonymous, some not) as a glowing endorsement of Bauer and/or attack on others. That's why the text said "mostly self-reported," because there was nothing to cite in her favor. However, it's probably better to give her the benefit of the doubt wherever possible, even if it means taking her word for it on things that don't attack someone else. Karen | Talk | contribs 06:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

"generally prior to their involvement with Bauer." I probably should had said, "at least some of them." This was in replacement of Mark's version, "Several authors have had their previous books issued by self-publishing houses and vanity publishers...." What we know for sure is that Field Rue published with both PublishAmerica and AuthorHouse before signing with BB. Quoting from someone on the Talk page: "I did some poking around on this author's web site and found that his PublishAmerica book was released in August of 2004 . His agent page states that Bauer has been his representative since July of 2005. There are two other books listed on the author's home page, but no release date or publisher has been provided. I found the author and work also represented here. It's a division of a Welsh publisher, but doesn't mention whether they are publishing that particular book." The significance is that if such people self-published after signing with Bauer, then they paid an agent as well as the publisher, and Bauer did nothing they could not do for themselves. Saying they self-published before finding Bauer actually makes her seem less predatory. However, one example is not the same as going over the entire client list again to see whether the word "generally" is justified. No reference to her involvement or non-involvement with these titles is perfectly fine with me. The rest of my edit was to clarify that she may have placed books with major publishers in the 1980s and possibly 1990s (giving her the benefit of the doubt on several books and authors she's mentioned), and it's largely her recent track record that is at issue. I think Mark's concern is that she not be shown as leading people to PublishAmerica, which would be a rather large strike against her in the eyes of those who consider PA to be predatory. Karen | Talk | contribs 03:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Quick Question

Hi Avraham. I'm wondering how I can edit the "More info" box on the right hand side of this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sandbox. I would like to add a new category to the five already listed on there. Thanks! QuizQuick 00:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply on your talk page. -- Avi 01:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• I was actually thinking about starting a new game. Can I come to you for approval once I finish it? QuizQuick 20:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• This isn't exactly the game I'm talking about, but do you think this game can have it's own subsection? QuizQuick 21:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Revert

I do not think so. There are undoubtedly Activist Zionists, but I do not believe that Zionism in-and-of-itself is activism. -- Avi 18:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about all those "modern Zionism" groups and post-Zionism but Zionism's goal was is to bring Jews to Israel. Even in the 10th grade History 1 Bagrut is it taught the Zionism is activism. Psychomelodic (people think User:Psychomelodic/me ) 18:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

(I'd like if we continue the discussion in one page)

Apartheid

In the ArbComm case on the article, Arbitrator Fred Bauder has cited an earlier edit which added the article to the cat Category:Anti-Semitism as an example of "extreme bias". That is why I removed the Islam and anti-Semitism cat and similar links, they seem to be an attempt to make a POV comment on the phrase.Homey 21:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

See Homey 21:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

While your edits can be viewed as biased, categories are a special item. For example Golan heights can legitimately be included in both the geography of Syria and Israel. Inclusion in a category does not signify a fact, only that information regarding a matter may be found there. Certainly there is information extant which paints discussion of Israeli apartheid as anti-Semitism. I think use of the term is mostly by the Western left, particularly South African, English and Israeli. Arabs, who are practitioners of segregation and discrimination themselves, are unlikely to take such a tack. Fred Bauder 20:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"I think the edits you made are disruptive and biased but not actually violations of policy. Categories are not information in themselves. Fred Bauder 16:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• This is not factualy true. the use of Apartheid accusation of Israel is all over the Arab world. The barrier which israel call in the euphamism "anti-terror barrier" is called "the reacial sugregation wall" (and apartheid wall) in Arabic. Zeq 07:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

There hasn't been a discussion....

The following sentence does belong in that paragraph:

Physicians in "nearly half" of neonatal circumcisions "did not discuss the potential medical risks and benefits of elective circumcision prior to delivery of the infant son. Deferral of discussion until after birth, combined with the fact that many parents' decisions about circumcision are preconceived, contribute to the high rate of elective circumcision."TipPt 16:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

PS ... looks like Jakew dismissed the addition, calling it "excess detail."TipPt 16:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Where are you currently working...

With respect to Wiki and Circ's?

When you read explainations of jewish and islamic circ practices ... there's room for debate. Regardless, "requirement" is too strong for the majority, who don't even go to worship. "Rite" is the best word technically, but unfortunately it then reads religious rite (right?).TipPt 16:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

For some it is a rite, for others a requirement. This should be more fully documented in the proper aticles, but look at the Judaism subparagraph in this article, if we can desecrate the Sabbath, a capital offense—punisheable by the Sanhedrin by the most severe of the four forms of death under Jewish law, I tend to think that gives proof beyond a doubt that it is more than a rite. -- Avi 16:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry case

Removing sock puppet accusation since I think I was mistaken about this. My apologies. SkipSmith 07:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Popups

Please try to use the revert feature of the navigational popups only in the case of blatant vandalism. Some of the edits you rolled back at Misplaced Pages are not vandalism, and a helpful edit summary would be useful to explain why you feel that their change is not necessary. Isopropyl 22:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ron Hoeflin

Avi, have the arguments you've seen persuaded you that Ron's article is worth keeping? Would you consider withdrawing the AfD as you did with the Triple Nine Society? --Michael C. Price 04:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

My heartfelt thanks! It's refreshing to meet someone prepared to publicly change their mind on any subject (and I agree the article should be expanded). Thanks again. --Michael C. Price 06:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope this won't be seen as a cheeky request, but I wonder if you would consider withdrawing the AfD against the Prometheus Society? I realise that the article is even more of a stub than the others, but being a stub is surely a reason for encouraging people to add to it, not to delete it? Just a thought. I should add, perhaps, that I'm not a member of the Prometheus Society. Whether this makes my request more or less appropriate, I'm not sure. --Michael C. Price 10:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed the withdrawn AfD: thanks once again for making Misplaced Pages a saner and more informative place. --Michael C. Price 16:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Question First of all, thanks for your help and work on the Prometheus article. Now, about Ron Hoeflin. I just received an email from him, and he offered to write a short biographical sketch for Wiki -- but only if your rules allow it. Do your rules allow him to write his own article? Am I allowed to take his sketch, edit and/or rewrite it and submit it as an article? I am an officer of two of his societies and for the purposes of this question, assume that I am his friend. (I believe I am.) Promking 15:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Prometheus article

I've expanded it. Wrote about 600 words. Obviously its a first effort and can be expanded, corrected and improved... but it's a start. In case of vandals I've put a copy on my talk page. Thanks for your suggestion that we expand it. Promking 16:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for the help Avraham.--Tstrobaugh 19:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Beit Hamikdash article

Hi Avi: Please read the attached request I received . Thank you. IZAK 07:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Need administrator help in Temple in Jerusalem

Hi Izak,

A user by the name of Biblical1 has completely rewritten the Temple in Jerusalem article multiple times, presenting some rather speculatve views of a few contemporary thinkers as objective fact and scholarly consensus. At this point, would it be possible for you or some other administrator to freeze the page and guide a discussion on the Talk page? Thanks, --Shirahadasha 04:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Shirahadasha: Thanks for contacting me. I am not an admin, but I will bring your message to the attention of others who may be able to help you. It is also very ironic and sad that on the eve of Tisha B'Av that this needs to be dealt with. Sincerely, IZAK 07:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism

Hi again Avraham : Thought you would be interested in the latest adventure that has started at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism (perhaps you may want to join) and the discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Shabbat Shalom. IZAK 12:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

Hi, if you are saying what I think you are saying about Category:High_IQ_societies, that it cannot be under more than one category, then you are mistaken. Please see Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Categories_do_not_form_a_tree. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.--Tstrobaugh 19:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks from Yanksox

Hey, Avraham, thanks for supporting my RfA, with a tally of 104/4/7... I am now an admin!!! I was and still am very flattered by all the kind comments that I recieved, I will also take into account the comments about how I could improve. I guarantee I will try my best to further assist Misplaced Pages with the mop. Feel free to drop in and say hi or if you need anything. Again, thank you so much! Yanksox 07:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

for all the work you put in editing the Prometheus article to proper format. I especially admire that you did the work silently; anyone else would have boasted about it. I've tried to learn some of the format. I found some nice long articles with lots of references and clicked "edit" I didnt edit them of course, I simply observed the code that was used for references, etc. Promking 17:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Israel and the UN

Please stop pushing POV - I think you will find that it fact it is YOU who are closer to the 3RR breach. Please coply with policy. Thanks. 86.27.55.184 21:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from pushing POV - it is against policy. Furthermore accusing aonther of bad faith is also contrary to guidelines. As an admin you should know better. Thanks. 86.27.55.184 21:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Take a look, it is well-sourced and documented, and it is not POV. Read the talk page as well as the citations. -- Avi 21:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You two know better than this, sorry Avi but you did break WP:3RR in the article as well by having 4 non-vandalism reverts in a 24 hour period. That I see, 8 hour block. Jaranda 19:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

You're correct, I missed this: Note: There is no requirement for the reverts to be related: any four reverts on the same page count. I cannot argue with the block. -- Avi 20:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I unblocked via your email that said you would avoid the article for 24 hours. The annon is still blocked. ThanksJaranda 20:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Avi 20:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Lieberman

Avi, the vandal is back on Joe Lieberman with a registered account -- same edits. Sandy 02:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Avi, I'm not a vandal - I've never changed anything on the Lieberman wiki before. I just noticed an obvious error on the Joe Lieberman page. That is, Lieberman never checked into the Betty Ford clinic for a cocaine abuse problem. You can check this out - but it should be changed. Thanks. Bezalela 02:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, Avi and Bezalela: I was wrong. I see now that vandalism got left behind in the last spree, and that you were reverting it. There was so much activity that I really got confused. My apologies! (Will add an apology note to Bezalela page). Sandy 02:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Please Dont Vandalize User Pages

Please refrain from vandalizing my userpage. It is apparernt that you have an agenda to push and continue to disregard Misplaced Pages's NPOV rule. I urge you to cease and desist with your blantant disregard for civil discussion and your "ownership" of articles. --Oiboy77 17:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

My dear Oiboy, it has nothing to do withvandalization. You had violated wp:npov with your Jeruslaem --> Tel Aviv edit. You know better than that. -- Avi 17:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"my dear Oiboy77"?? Please don't patronize me.--Oiboy77 20:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, Oiboy it will be, -- Avi 20:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

FYI Mega Society Judgement

As you may have heard the Mega Society article was deleted awhile ago, at the end of an acrimonious AfD/DRV process. There is a wide divergence between deletion policy (as defined by various policy guideline documents) and deletion practice, as implemented by admins (who claim to be following the "spirit" of the law). Consequently there are lessons to be learnt from the experience, which will not be obvious from reading the guidelines. Here are some tips for future conduct:

• Single purpose users are frowned upon and were a frequent bone of contention during the AfD and DRV processes. So I urge you all to "establish" yourself as Wikipedians: create, edit and even ... delete articles! There are plenty of articles that need attention.
• It is a very good idea to put something on your user page, (it doesn't matter what) to avoid showing up as redlinked users -- being redlinked will count against you in any debate.
• When voting, include brief reasons which are grounded in policy (votes not backed by reasoning may be discounted; too much reasoning will be ignored).

Given the bias against soliciting (see judgement) I may not be able to contact you again, so I suggest you put the Mega Society in your watchlists.

The closing admin's comments on the Mega Society:

Within the argumentation of the debate, the most significant point raised by those who supported the article was that a new draft was available. The article is not protected, so this may be posted at any time and (assuming it is not substantially similiar to the older version) it will be judged anew on its merits. This is good news for you.

The bad news for you is that it is well-established practice within Misplaced Pages to ignore completely floods of newer, obviously "single-issue POV", contributors at all our deletion fora. I'm among the most "process-wonkish" of Wikipedians, believe me, and even process-wonks accept that these sorts of voters are completely discountable. Misplaced Pages is not a pure democracy; though consensus matters, the opinion of newcomers unfamiliar with policy is given very little weight. Your vote, that of Tim Shell, and that wjhonson were not discounted. The others supporting your view were. I promise you that it is almost always true that, within Misplaced Pages, any argument supported by a flood of new users will lose, no matter how many of the new users make their voices known. In the digital age, where sockpuppeting and meatpuppeting are as easy as posting to any message board, this is as it should be for the sake of encyclopedic integrity. It is a firm practice within Misplaced Pages, and it is what every policy and guideline mean to imply, however vaguely they may be worded. (I do agree that our policies, written by laypeople mostly, could do with a once-over from an attorney such as myself; however, most laypeople hate lawyers, so efforts to tighten wording are typically met with dissent.)

If your supporters were more familiar with Misplaced Pages, they would realize that, invariably, the most effective way to establish an article after it has been deleted in a close AfD is to rewrite it: make it "faster, better, stronger." This is, in fact, what you claim to have done with your draft. Good show. Best wishes, Xoloz 16:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)