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Permission from the copy right owner

I need to post a software image file from the software owner website on a wikipedia (the article is AVS Video Editor). I intend to ask the software owner the permission to post the screenshot on wikipedia. How should the licence agreement with the software owner I need to send to Wikimedia's copyright service look like? NeviRom (talk) 08:08, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Greetings, NeviRom. The e-mail agreeing to an acceptable license needs to come, not from you, but directly from the copyright owner. See Misplaced Pages:Donating copyrighted materials for general instructions and Misplaced Pages:Declaration of consent for all enquiries for suggested wording of such an e-mail. Deor (talk) 10:12, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Is it okay to edit stubbed articles not marked as such?

I recently found the page for San Juan Guelavia and noticed it's not marked as a stub article, despite not possessing even a Table of Contents. Might it be okay to add more possible information to the article?

(This is all kinda confusing...)

Ɀexcoiler's coding-fueled egⓞ is too huge! 07:53, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely! That is what we're here for, Zexcoiler Kingbolt - to improve the articles and build a better encyclopedia. So if you can improve an article - anything from fixing a spelling mistake to adding good references to writing the bulk of the content, then be bold and do it.--Gronk Oz (talk) 08:08, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Zexcoiler Kingbolt. We have over five million articles here on Misplaced Pages. As long as you edit in compliance with our policies and guidelines, you can edit the vast majority of them, including unmarked stubs. As a matter of fact, if your goal is to improve them, you are encouraged to edit them. A few high profile or controversial articles are protected because of persistent vandalism or disruptive editing. Even so, you can suggest changes on those article's talk pages. Cullen Let's discuss it 08:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Differences

All the latest edits are showing:

|| || in green, blue and red. Eden's Apple (talk) 05:13, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

May I use translated material in an article?

I am writing a new article about a Yiddish singer. The best source is a multi-page article in Yiddish, published in 1937, available online through the Internet Archive in collaboration with the Yiddish Book Center. May I translate directly, & then cite the source? Or cite the source first, & follow with the translation in quotes or italics? Thanks for answering my very first Teahouse question;it is a thrill to collaborate with my new invisible friends. Nadnie (talk) 03:55, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Nadnie. You can cite a reliable source in any language, and should include a link to the online archive. If you are reasonably fluent in both English and Yiddish, you can include a few translated sentences. Adding a complete translation of the entire article here on Misplaced Pages would be considered a copyright violation, and should be avoided. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:08, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Redirecting an article

Do I need to go through the regular deletion process if I want to turn an article into a redirect? Since it is a redirect it's not technically a deletion and it isn't a merge either so I'm not sure how to proceed. Opencooper (talk) 02:26, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Opencooper, welcome. No need to delete. Are you sure about doing this? What is the page name? You should put the redirect in a category or more (up to seven) also.

A redirect looks like this:

#REDIRECT ]

{{R from historical name}} (or an appropriate category)

{{R from verb}}

Be sure to put the word redirect in ALL CAPS; put it on the 1st line; put the R category(s) on the 3rd line and so forth.

Good luck. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 02:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

There's no need to go through the deletion process, see WP:BLAR. Datbubblegumdoe (mobile) (talk) 02:53, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

@Checkingfax: I appreciate the answer. Thank you for the tips about creating redirects as well. The article in question is Crisis in the Hot Zone, a New Yorker article that was later turned into a book, The Hot Zone. The issue with the former is that it is redundant with the latter article which contains much more information and is cited, so a merge isn't needed. Opencooper (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Because the article has 32 authors over a 10-year period, and because the article is about the magazine article and not about the book, I don't think a straight away deletion (redirect) is in order. IMHO, it should go through the standard Merge process. Once merged, then create the redirect. The Merge templates will give other editors a chance to chime in. The redirect category will be: R from merge. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 05:21, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable approach. Thank you for looking into it and providing your advice. Opencooper (talk) 07:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

expanding a stub article

Hello everyone!

Question - I would like to expand/replace an article that has been marked as a stub. Should I create the article in my sandbox first (so that I could work on it before publishing it) and then copy/paste it in place of the stub article, or is there another way?

Thanks a lot!!

Kamengrossi (talk) 02:10, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Kamengrossi, welcome. I disagree with sandbox editing because then you have to marry your sandbox to the existing article assuming there are subsequent edits by other editors which there invariably are. There are also copyright attribution issues. Micro editing in the actual article is a better way to go. By editing in the article itself the copyright trail is clean. If you want to edit the article for a period of time and don't want edit conflicts, use the {{in use}} template. Click on the blue link here so you can read the variables so you can set a custom timer, your time in, and a message. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 02:58, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank so much for such a detailed reply! I'll do that!

Kamengrossi (talk) 04:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I need a copy editing volunteer.

Hello, recently I saw a banner on my article that I need a copy editing done. This is my article: Threat and error management. I would like to politely ask a copy edit volunteer to edit my article on grammar, structure etc. Thank you very much in advance and I appreciate any help or assistance. Sincerely, Hseong2 (talk) 02:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding: Rendering process died with non zero code: 1 (Possible reason)

I think I might have accidently discovered the problem.

I was creating a pdf on early civilizations and got the same error message as everyone else.

After trying a few dozen times, I decided to just download each page as a single pdf and merge them later.

Every page worked.

Except one: Babylon.

When I tried to download that page I received this message: "! Package polyglossia Error: The current roman font does not contain the Syriac".

I removed Babylon from my book...and it worked perfectly.

I doubt it's really as simple as a font problem...but maybe?

Ccmstf77 (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for that Ccmstf77. It may be due to the Old Persian text in the infobox of Babylon. It doesn't display with the fonts on my computer. —teb728 t c 03:25, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

What shall I do after delete discussion and the draft is to "keep"

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Draft:Hongchi_Xiao&redirect=no Shall I wait for the picture issue to be resolved or submit now? Is there anything else that I can do to improve the draft? jdxzhu 17:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdxzhu (talk • contribs)

Hello, Jdxzhu, and welcome to the Teahouse. I have looked over the draft and made some edits to it, in particular removing some unnecessary detail and some promotional-tone wording. I also corrected some of your reference formatting; you should be able to follow the examples I did to correct the rest of the references. (In particular watch out for switching the work = and title = fields, and note that references should follow directly after a word, punctuation or another reference without any spaces in between: example,<ref>{{citation}}</ref><ref>{{citation}}</ref> next word, not example, <ref>{{citation}}</ref> <ref>{{citation}}</ref> next word. On the other hand I may have gotten some of the Chinese authors' first and last names confused, so please check those. Also note that the language = field is required when the trans-title = field is used, and whichever specific Chinese language — e.g. Mandarin Chinese or Cantonese — is used in a source should be listed in the language = field; I wasn't sure which one was correct, so I just listed them as Chinese.) It looks to me like you've done well at including criticism of Xiao to balance the article. I think the draft will be ready to be re-submitted after just a little more cleanup. Feel free to return to the Teahouse if you require any further assistance. —GrammarFascist _contribs 20:54, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jdxzhu: As the close of the deletion stated: "The result of the discussion was Keep. Note (mostly to user:Jdxzhu) that this means keep the draft. It bears no indication to whether it should be moved to article space, or not; nor to the draft not being eventually deleted later on"

What that means is that the current version is not so irredeemably promotional that it should be immediately deleted. It now proceeds under the normal process - you keep attempting to 1) demonstrate that there are third party sources that discuss the subject in depth and 2) that you can write the content in a non advertisorial manner that is neutral, detached and presents both positive and negative points of the subject. If you continue to submit without without making significant progress in addressing the concerns, you can expect fewer and fewer reviewers to waste their time even checking on it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you both very much for your help. I will find time to work on the draft later. Your detailed instructions are greatly appreciated! jdxzhu 21:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdxzhu (talk • contribs)

Removing a Tag

Hi, I have just copyedited an article. It had the tag or banner saying it needed copyediting at the top of the page. Should i remove it (and if so how) or do I leave it in place? Janifrax12 (talk) 10:48, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

hello @Janifrax12: and thanks for copy editing!

you are correct that the banner needs to be removed manually. at the top of the page will be something in braces, called a WP:TEMPLATE. It probably looks like {{copyedit|date=May 2015}} just remove that.

You may also be interested in joining the WP:Guild of Copyeditors-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hello, Janifrax12, welcome to the Teahouse and thank you for copy-editing articles! It looks to me like you did a good job with Ashley Reed, so I took the tag off for you. In future all you need to do is remove the {{copy edit|date=November 2015}} (or whatever date is included) tag from the top of the article. —GrammarFascist _contribs 11:26, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Southwest University, U.S

I submitted a page with the above title but it was deleted by JMHamo. I need assistant on how I can resubmit the same page with some modification. NomsuNomsu (talk) 10:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello @Nomsu: - welcome to the Teahouse.

The three things I would recommend are:

Utilize the WP:Article Wizard to create the article. It will start out in draft space rather than live space and will generally not be under such scrutiny so that you can get help to make it appropriate.

The second is to head the advice of why the first version was deleted. We are writing an encyclopedia, not hosting free advertisements.

The third would would be to read the basic requirements for having a stand alone article and the Cliff's notes version and ensure that the subject of the article and your draft meet those requirements.

(and the semi optional fourth which may or may not be applicable): read and follow the conflict of interest policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Nomsu, and welcome to the Teahouse. I recommend that you use Misplaced Pages:Article wizard in order to create any new articles. I see that the previous version was deleted for using overly promotional language, so you should probably read the relevant section of the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style to get an idea of what kind of wording to avoid in your next draft. You will also need to cite sources for any facts in the article which someone might question, and it's best to use secondary sources, such as newspaper or magazine articles which discuss the university, or coverage in a published book — the university's own website, as a primary source, should only be cited for facts which you can't find a secondary source for. This guide to formatting references should help.

Once you think you have everything you need in the draft, submit it using the button at the top of the page. An experienced editor will review the draft, and if necessary point out areas which need further improvement. The draft and review process prevents new articles from being deleted when you're still working on them. Just make sure you address any issues raised by the reviewer(s) before you re-submit it, if the draft is initially declined. And of course feel free to return to the Teahouse for any further help you may need. —GrammarFascist _contribs 11:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Timing of BLP PROD

This is more a question of Misplaced Pages etiquette than strict rules, I think. Looking through new pages, I often find stubs that are BLPs with no references, such as Josh Schache. The rules say I must BLP PROD these. But a couple of editors have suggested (always in the nicest possible terms) that it would be better to give the authors some time to finish working on the article before doing this, as dealing with the PROD is a distraction that takes time and effort away from the job. But how long should I wait - a day? A week? A month? Or should the rules be carried out as written, and raise it straight away?Gronk Oz (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

if they haven't made an edit to the article in an hour, or even 30 minutes then its appropriate. You want to catch them while they are still here. Even better, if they are still editing go to their talk page and let them know whats going to happen if they dont take action. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 09:13, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

For a brand new article, it should not be marked "reviewed" until it is BLP PRODded or sourced. The PROD itself includes a 7-day waiting period. I agree with the TRPOD that sourcing BLPs should be a priority and can't reasonably be called a "distraction" unless it is done minutes or seconds after the article was created. VQuakr (talk) 09:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to you both! --Gronk Oz (talk) 14:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

If the rules didn't say BLP PROD, there would be a lot more than the 3,300 currently sitting in this pile. CV9933 (talk) 17:05, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Searching Google News yields plenty of recent sources for Josh Schache. Often, it is better to do a quick notability check and add a couple of sources than to PROD an article. Our first choice is to save articles, not to delete them, if the topic is notable. Cullen Let's discuss it 17:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Gronk Oz, it is not correct to say that "The rules say I must BLP PROD these". There are no rules that say you "must" do anything at all to the article or indeed to any article. It is true that you should not mark an article as reviewed or patrolled if it is an unsourced BLP. You may always elect to find and add sources if you choose. Personally I wouldn't add a BLPPROD tag to an article that is only a few hours old, or to one where the creator has been editing within the last hour or so. You have the option of sending a talk page message directly to the article creator on his or her talk page, or of adding an {{unsourced}} tag, or of trying to source it yourself, or of simply leaving the article for a bit in hope that someone will add sources. This is one reason to do NPP from the back of the backlog, or at least not the front. All that said, BLPPRTOD gives 7 days for a source to be added, it isn't exactly sudden death. But when a single simple google search leads to a valid source, it doesn't take much longer to find and cite that source than it does to add the BLPPROD tag, and there is a net gain. DES 18:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft: John Zurier

I reviewed Draft: John Zurier, and declined it as a BLP lacking in-line citations. I then received a message on my talk page from User:Smokyhallow, saying that he or she had added footnotes and resubmitted the draft, but that User:Cult of Green had then similarly declined the draft. It appears to me that the current version does have in-line citations, so that maybe Cult of Green meant that they were not enough to establish notability. I am bringing this here to discuss with other experienced editors what can be done to improve the draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Robert McClenon - to clarify my review please see WP:MINREF and you will see the minimum standard for inline citations. The draft article does have some inline citations however it doesn't meet the minimum standard. Best wishes Cult of Green (talk) 04:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. User:Smokyhallow - Please provide more inline references. I think that the subject is notable but it is up to you to establish that. A few editors go beyond the call of duty in building up an article to where it can be accepted. Maybe you can ask them for help, or maybe you can add the references to the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Although the draft has a variety of problems, I think that it is clear that this artist is notable. He has had a solo show at a major museum and many solo shows at respected commercial galleries. He has been the subject of significant coverage in Art in America. And so on. It is better, in my opinion, to give the primary author help and suggestions for improving the article than to keep declining the draft. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:52, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

adding a link to verify a person on a bio page

Help - I just created three new pages - all for writers and story editors for the NBC sitcom Undateable. But they've all been flagged to be deleted because I didn't cite a source. Can someone tell me how to edit the page and insert the link to the official NBC website that lists these people as writers on the show?CatBrewer (talk) 23:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, CatBrewer, and welcome to the Teahouse. I have added one for Laura Moran, you can use it as an example. Please read Referencing for Beginners for more detail. DES 23:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC) @CatBrewer: DES 23:24, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

ack - I feel so out of my element --- I just updated the site for Laura Moran and Terrell Lawrence but not sure I did it correctly. I don't understand how to look at your revisions :( Sorry CatBrewer (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@CatBrewer: click the History tab at the top of the page and then click the radio dial buttons on the 2 versions you wish to compare. Also, it is a much better idea, particularly for new editors, to create new articles in your sandbox work space and via the WP:Article Wizard as you will have much more time to make the content "ready for prime time" . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Can you tell me if I did it correctly for Terrell Lawrence? thanks! CatBrewer (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@CatBrewer: you added a link that validates the existence of a person, but it does not address the concern that noted in the template that there is a credible claim of notability. See this link for the basic criteria required for a stand alone article.

And then you may wish to see WP:REFB for how to properly format the links. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I didnt look at the link, but apparently it doesn't mention Terrell, so no, apparently you did not do it correctly. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I made a reflist and ref section on this article. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 23:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@CatBrewer:, you say that you created three pages, but looking at your history I can only find Laura Moran and Terrell Lawrence. I checked, and I can confirm TRPoD's comment - Terrell Lawrence is not mentioned on the link at www.nbc.com/undateable. There is a Bill Lawrence mentioned as one of the three Executive Producers, and I see that in an earlier version of the page you clarified that they are not related. But there is no mention of Terrell.--Gronk Oz (talk) 01:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

from the notice on their talk page, i believe the third was Chris Luccy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:10, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see - I didn't know that deleted articles would also vanish from the editor's list of contributions. Now that I have learned something for today, I'm happy. Thanks.--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

Hi all,

A few days ago GrammarFascist so nicely found some articles for me.

The Michigan Daily, which is a university paper but may be one of the few of those which counts as a reliable source; I encourage other Teahouse volunteers to share their opinions about that. The Michigan Daily - Nov 11, 1996 and The Michigan Daily - Nov 19, 1998 are the articles in question.

I'm not sure about this source, either: Virginia Medical Monthly – 1990 It's published by The Medical Society of Virginia, but I can't tell how much fact-checking or editorial control are in place.

I wanted to know if anybody else has thoughts on if they are reliable sources? And if so what other college Newspapers would be considered reliable? Major college newspapers?

Thank you all for your input! And thanks again GrammerFascist for finding these!

Aagreeny4 (talk) 22:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I wonder if you're getting two issues confused here, Aagreeny4. College newspapers are usually considered reliable sources for verifying facts, but they are not particular well regarded when it comes to establishing notability. I'm sure that these sources are perfectly reliable on the topics they are reporting, but whether they establish its notability is not so clear. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Would the two from the Michigan count for his notability because they state information about him and his work, in addition to others opinions about him? Or do the opinions not count toward notability? Aagreeny4 (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

For the uninitiated, the article concerned is Draft:Mike "Greeny" Green, as discussed below. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:05, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Aagreeny4. In my opinion, the Michigan Daily sources are weak for establishing notability. In effect, they are fairly brief and formulaic descriptions in a student newspaper of a speaker appearing on campus. They do not offer extensive biographical details about the person, and in my opinion, they do not rise to the level of significant coverage. As for the Virginia Medical Monthly source, the snippet I can see is so brief that I can express no opinion. Cullen Let's discuss it 00:48, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Having done some searching, I've found many mentions of Mike Green - mainly in events listings - but a lack of in-depth coverage. Has a newspaper or magazine ever published a detailed article about your father, Aagreeny4? That would definitely help in establishing notability. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The only newspapers would be college newspapers. There are some from a couple local newspapers in New Jersey. He does have notable mentions in the Chronicle of Higher Education and Scholastic coach which I have in my article. There are some other articles in "Athletic Management" but I am having trouble finding that source since it would be an older issue. I know he was also listed among the outstanding young men of America, and I am thing to find and article about that and his work, I think they either have a book or release that would describe his work. Aagreeny4 (talk) 08:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

If you provide information about the local New Jersey newspaper articles, Aagreeny4 — newspaper name, article title, author if given, page number, and date published — we can evaluate whether those sources would help establish notability. —GrammarFascist _contribs 19:02, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

These are the two I have Avedissian, Eric. “Cape May resident counsels students on dangers of drug and alcohol abuse”. Cape May Star and Wave. 13 March 1997. Print.

     Explains his background and his work. It describes his message and the job that he does, while listing a few schools he speaks to. States his sobriety and the message or content in his speech. Emphasizes how his approach to the message is different than others. Provides detail and some quotes from his speeches. 

Kelly, Shannon. “Wall parents get a look at “one nighters””. The Herald. 11 Dec. 1997. Print

      From Wall township in NJ, explains the speech his gave to the students at the local high school. States his work across the country, names his business and his background. Explains quotes and the message from the speech. Explains how he got into the business.  Tells how he travles the country with this message. 

I have a few others but I don't have complete source information.

     "Anyone given drink...Can cost you everything" by Ned Hartwick- but I don't know the papers name.
      "Drug farce eclipsed by SADD asembly" by Aidan Finley- I don't know if this in the name of the paper or just the section, the paper is only of the article about Greeny and doesn't have the whole paper but I can tell it says Opinion on the very top. and its from Haverford PA. 

I also have one from the Oklahoma Daily, but I don't know if that is a school paper or which it is.

Thank you for helping. Aagreeny4 (talk) 06:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

When is "on" grammatically correct when it preceeds a month and year date?

Example: "On May 2015, the Philippines expressed interest in acquiring a number Lockheed P-3 Orion from Japan, which the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force (JMSDF) is planning to retire within a few years time." I was told by another editor that "ON" is correct instead of the "IN" that I supplied. What is what here?Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome, Srednuas Lenoroc. "On" is correct for a specific date, as in "On 5 May 2015". "In" is correct for a month without a specific date, as in "In May 2015". Cordless Larry (talk) 21:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, there seems to be in the course of my correcting this grammatical happenstance of those that claim without reserve that "on MONTH YEAR" is correct.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I can confirm that "On May 2015" is without question grammatically incorrect. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Not to belabor the point but I have never said that "on MONTH YEAR" was grammatically correct but that there have been some editors who believe so.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I know, Srednuas Lenoroc. I'm confirming that you are correct! Cordless Larry (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I've corrected a heap more instances of the same error in the same article. --David Biddulph (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have been going through a search "on MONTH YEAR" from 1500 to 1920 to review these instances to see if they are grammatically incorrect and have corrected those that I believe are. Then I have been working by month from November 2015 backward to review and correct when necessary so unless an article has "on MONTH" (say "on April") then I do not get to that review until that particular MONTH/YEAR come up. That way I can somewhat cover all the instances that pop up. So for those articles that I have already for any particular "date" reviewed there could be more present. This may seem a tedious way of doing it but then I do concentrate on an absolute identified through the search rather than a potential merely because through happenstance with another date it has appeared in the search hits. It seems that the presence of "on MONTH YEAR" appears where it was intended to supply a DAY but never was done. Whenever it has been found please feel free to edit.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Cotton Family

This may be a bit weird. This one is based on Eastenders. Nick Cotton and Dot Cotton are in the same family but went don't people make a page for this family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kobbs (talk • contribs) 21:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Kobbs, and welcome to the Teahouse. Not every aspect of every television show is notable and ought to have an article on Misplaced Pages. Have any published independent reliable secondary sources discussed this fictional family in depth? If so, you could start an article yourself. If not, no article would be appropriate. DES 21:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The answer to your question is undoubtedly yes, DES. In fact, Kobbs already created a stub article at Cotton family before posting this question, but Deb redirected it to Dot Cotton. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Instead of making a definite statement about a particular article not being developed, maybe it would be best to leave it open to when it is appropriate that an article be developed when the appropriate sources are available and notoriety is present. That way the idea of a particular article is not now and forever deemed unnecessary. Some times people "offer" a course of action that does not undertake the changing nature of subjects and need for additional articles.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 21:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

This point is sort of covered by Misplaced Pages:Notability#Notability is not temporary, but I don't think anyone is saying that this topic will never be notable. In fact, given how long this family has been in the programme, there are already likely enough sources to establish notability. I'm not convinced that there is much value in having an article on the family though, given that articles about some of the individual characters concerned already exist. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I didn't make any definite statement that an article would not be appropriate, except that it wouldn't be appropriate unless there were sources to establish notability. If there are such sources, then an article could be created, but whether to do so is a matter of editorial judgement and, ultimately, community consensus. If there is not much to say on a topic, or what there is to say is better included as part of another article (here Dot Cotton) then there is no requirement to create the article, but there is no rule against it, either. It could be discussed on Talk:Dot Cotton, or on the talk page of the redirect. That one editor converted a stub into a redirect need not be the final outcome. An article was boldly created, another editor has converted it to a redir, in effect reverting the creation, and now, in accord with the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle, it is time to discuss the matter among interested editors. All Misplaced Pages articles (and other pages) are always works in progress, and whether to change an existing one or create a new one should pretty much always be open when such action seems appropriate. One method that is often followed would be to add sourced content to the existing article (here Dot Cotton) until there is enough that a split seems like a good idea, and a useful spin-off article can be created. DES 22:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Absence is just as impactful as calling attention to standards and guide lines so temperance probably offers more perspective about fleeting interest and considerations of longer endearment.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 23:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft: Bethesda Urban Partnership

I reviewed Draft: Bethesda Urban Partnership, and declined it as not providing evidence of corporate notability. I suggested that it be merged with Bethesda, Maryland. The author, User: SunshineState 1, then posted to my talk page: "Hi - For my first new page I tried to keep it short and factual with links to online articles. Where did I go wrong? Thank you!" My own thought is that the draft is too short and doesn't indicate notability. What is the advice of other experienced editors? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

You could explain to SunshineState that they did not "go wrong" – the problem is that the subject lacks any notability, and there is nothing they can do about it. Maproom (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

This is not a game of someone wins and someone losses. This is a very tenuous situation. Opinion is a very subjective action. This reminds me of a school assignment where we were all asked to locate and critique sources of information about various subjects/incidents. There came in the assignment a particular subject that was five sentences long in another work. When asked what was the best available work on "X", what is your answer. We all made mention of the existence of the work in question but no one said it was the then best available so we all got zeros when all we had to do to pass was say "X" is the best available work although it is only five sentences long. Not every subject can stand alone as a complete article but certainly there should be every opportunity taken to at least make mention in a article on a wider scale than a subject specific article. WP will never be perfect and to exclude something on the basis that by doing so makes WP more perfect is basically giving credence to an action that in short-sided. The worst thing you can do to understanding a subject is skewing the content. As for being able to not do any thing about something seems to discount public opinion.Srednuas Lenoroc (talk) 22:05, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

It's really not as complicated as that. The article simply lacks sufficient citations to establish notability. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Srednuas Lenoroc, no one has excluded this subject or indeed this draft from Misplaced Pages. it has not been deleted. Robert McClenon has said that it is not currently suitable for the main article space, and he is correct as the draft stands. He Maproom has also given it as his opinion that sources to establish notability do not exist, but that view is not final until one has done an exhaustive search for sources, which is well beyond the normal scope of an AfC reviewer. SunshineState 1, or you, or I are all free to search for additional relaible sources that might help to establish notability and meet the guideline for notability of organizations. Anyone may add such sources to the draft. Misplaced Pages does run on more absolute standards than "the best available work". If a topic cannot be shown to be notable (in Misplaced Pages's rather specialized use of that term) it will not have a separate article. Whether it should be included as part of a larger article is a judgement call, with no single answer being correct in every case. I hope this is helpful. DES 22:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have now added several sources to Draft: Bethesda Urban Partnership. I don't think it is yet at the point of fully establishing notability, but I think it may get there. DES 22:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

As well as sources, the article will need to say what the "Bethesda Urban Partnership" is, not just what it does. Maproom (talk) 23:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully agree. If an organization is notable for what it does, than what it is is simply an organization that does those sorts of things. In any case this is a minor addition that will easly be added once more sources, and content derived from them, have been added. DES 23:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Question about implementing Third Opinion recommendation

Hi, I'm here to ask for help making edits recommended via Third Opinion. Another editor suggested I post here, since I have a financial COI and don't want to make the edits myself.

To summarize the situation, I've been working on behalf of The Wyss Foundation on the Hansjorg Wyss article for the past few months. Recently, another editor and I disagreed on the amount of information that should be included in one section. I posted to Third Opinion to get another editor involved. You can see the conversation here. The third opinion was that the section should be reduced, but the editor didn't want to make the changes and pointed me here instead. Would someone be able to help or tell me what I should do next? This is the first time I've used the Third Opinion process. Thanks! Heatherer (talk) 17:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Heatherer. Although I see there is already one on the page, perhaps you could use a new {{request edit}} template, outlining the precise edit request that results from the discussion? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:AN and WP:ANI

The posts in the pages are similar. Under what circumstances users visit WP:AN not WP:ANI. The Avengers (talk) 10:51, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The explanation at the top of WP:AN says:

• Issues appropriate for this page could include: General announcements, discussion of administration methods, ban proposals, block reviews, and backlog notices.
• If you are seeking administrator intervention for a specific issue or dispute, you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead.

In some cases the boundary is rather blurred, but that is the guidance. --David Biddulph (talk) 11:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I guess i was in the right place, when i wrote on AN yesterday to ask about administrative practices that might help to address bullying behaviors, but instead of an answer, i got shut down, ridiculed, derided, insulted, called stupid (Dunning-Kruger effect) and dark motives imputed to me just for asking about this, and then they closed the discussion. It was not a good response. I had wondered if i was posting in the right place. I suppose i was, but i think something is broken about Misplaced Pages if i ask about how to address bullying and i get bullied for asking. SageRad (talk) 13:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Help with my new article, what is wrong?

Hi. I sent in my article draft:kresten bjerg for review. He is more or less the only psychologist in denmark to talk about "domestic psychology", and has a lot of publications behind him. I have a source for everything i wrote, but it keeps getting declined. Do you have any ideas to solve that matter? BR Magnus bjerg (talk) 07:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

You need more third party sources i.e. ones which are independent of the subject. Just glancing at it, you've provided 4 references, one is a Facebook page, which doesn't establish notability as anyone can set one up, the second is the subject's own website, which suffers the same issue as Facebook, the third seems to be written by a family member of the subject. You need to find references which people not affiliated with the subject have written. Valenciano (talk) 07:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi valenciano. When writing who his parents are, isn't a page written by his mother the best source? Magnus bjerg (talk) 15:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello Magnus bjerg and welcome to the Teahouse. I took a look at your article and found that the text was copied from a website. That is a copyright violation. If you want to write an article you should do it with your own words, provide good and accurate sources for all the facts and preferably not in the style of the hoax you created at Chocolate pudding. w.carter-Talk 08:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The copied text was list of his book publications. What is wrong with copying them? Magnus bjerg (talk) 15:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Magnus bjerg:You can use the facts from the list, but not copy the text as it is with comments and all, since it is copyrighted by the person who wrote that. Look at how the publications are listed in Peter Høeg for example. w.carter-Talk 15:26, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The article in question is Draft:Kresten Bjerg. I would suggest that the original poster should read the conflict of interest policy before creating any more drafts about members of their family. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Rupert Loydell

I reviewed Draft:Rupert Loydell and asked whether more references could be added, neither accepting nor declining. User:Annabluebell then asked me on my talk page whether I meant that more references could be added to what she had already written or whether the article should be expanded. I meant that I was asking whether she could add more references to what she had already written. However, expanding a draft article is usually welcome. I would like the advice of other experienced editors as to whether I should go ahead and accept the article, which looks good enough to me. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

It looks pretty good to me. The sources, well, I'm not familiar with British poetry magazines but they seemed to be reliable in nature and cover Loydell broadly. The article has wikilinks, which a lot of the drafts seem to lack. The article could stand to be expanded, of course, but that could be done after it's moved to mainspace. In my view it's good enough to accept. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 03:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

There are a couple of things that would be good to do, but I don't know which ones need to be done before accepting it:

1. Check the close paraphrasing between the "Personal Life" section and his staff profile at - I think that needs to be resolved first (another common rookie mistake).
2. It would be good to add his birth year (1960), from the Shearsman Books reference.
3. I had to work hard to restrain myself from using reFill to convert those bare-URL references, but that wouldn't be polite, would it...
4. Most of those "External links" should not be there. Some are already used as References, and should just be removed (e.g. "2005 interview with Rupert by Dee Rimbaud"). Consider which of the others should be References, if they support material in the article, or removed.
5. Finally, only the first word in headings should be capitalized.

Hope that helps.--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Gronk Oz (and others) drafts are not WP:OWNed any more than articles are, and there is nothing wrong with filling in citation metadata, whether through a tool such as reFill or manually. (If you do use refill, please modify the results manually. It has a nasty habit of sticking things in the title= parameter that really should be separate.) Similarly, correcting formatting such as section title case is fine. DES 16:38, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, DES, I agree - and yet I also remember how frustrating it can be, especially as a new person, to have other people "helping" all the time. Part of the review process is to help the new editor learn, as well as producing the article at the end. So my own philosophy (at least for now until I change my mind) is that I am happy to do things like that if they will give the new editor an example to learn from, without making them feel that somebody else is "taking over" from them. BTW, I couldn't resist, so I did fill in those references - they look much better now, and I did have to make several adjustments to reFill's suggestions.--Gronk Oz (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

How to set a speedy delete after another deletion proposal

I saw this new page, Raniel_(angel) and noted it had been tagged for possible deletion, but it's a duplication of Ramiel and should have been tagged for a Speedy as a duplicate. I removed the original delete & tried to place the speedy, but the system won't let me. Help?  :) JamesG5 (talk) 02:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

An editor set this as a redirect, it's taken care of. Thanks! JamesG5 (talk) 03:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that you intended to refer to Ramiel (angel), not Raniel (angel), hence the redlink in your question. --David Biddulph (talk) 17:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

correction to an article

> The table of winners in the article: > https://en.wikipedia.org/Sporting_News_Executive_of_the_Year_Award shows 1962 > winner Fred Haney as representing the Los Angeles Dodgers of the National League > when, in fact, it was the Los Angels of the American League. > Per your article about Haney: > https://en.wikipedia.org/Fred_Haney "Then, the following year, the American > League granted an expansion team to Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Angels, and its owner, Gene Autry, chose Haney to operate the team and its organization for him. While the Angels usually struggled on the playing field during Haney's tenure as GM from 1961 to 1968, they did finish a surprising third in 1962, and contended for the 1967 pennant as well."79.176.148.187 (talk) 00:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The two articles disagree, but neither article has any references supporting this information. Any baseball fans out there know of a suitable reference that can resolve this?--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done - Found it in the "Baseball Almanac", in External links of Sporting_News_Executive_of_the_Year_Award. LA Angels it is - I have made that change to the article. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, anonymous IP editor. --Gronk Oz (talk) 04:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

How to start my 1st Edit-a-thon

I'm a Misplaced Pages newbie and a part-time employee of a literature & history educational nonprofit. I've been asked to help organize an edit-a-thon, and I'd like some advice on getting started. (1) Is it better to create a Wiki page for the event, or a Meetup? (2) If I create a Wiki page, is it a good idea to make a sub-page under the GLAM Wiki? (3) Since User IDs aren't supposed to be shared, will there be a problem if I create the edit-a-thon page with my own user ID? Does the organization I work for have to have an institutional user ID--or is such a thing even allowed to exist? Thank you! Grindall Reynolds (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Grindall Reynolds. I suggest that you start by reading How to run an edit-a-thon, which should answer most of your questions. Misplaced Pages accounts are for one individual person, so no, the institution should not have an account. Since you are editing in connection with your job duties, our Terms of use require you to disclose your employer.

I have attended lots of edit-a-thons. I recommend that new articles be written in draft or user sandbox pages, and only moved to main space when they are developed a bit, and have several references. Otherwise, the risk of speedy deletion is high, and that can be disheartening for new editors. Cullen Let's discuss it 22:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

world's richest country in 1900

Why Has the British empire depleted it's monetary to become one of the poorest country's in the list of richest today as they were in the 1900 2.24.72.227 (talk) 20:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, IP editor, and welcome to the Teahouse. The Teahouse is a place to learn and ask questions about editing Misplaced Pages. Could you please explain the issue you have in a bit more detail, such as whether your comment relates to a specific article? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

If you have a general question like that which is not about editing articles, you should ask it at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Humanities and they will try to answer it for you. Liz 21:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Want to Create a personal-info page

I am an actor and I likely to create one here on Wiki like other actors do. Plz help me. https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Upasanamohanty/sandbox Upasanamohanty 18:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Upasanamohanty (talk • contribs)

Hello Upasanamohanty, Misplaced Pages doesn't have "personal-info pages". It has articles, about notable subjects, that include information derived from reliable sources. It strongly discourages autobiography and other articles where the contributor has a conflict of interest. If you have been covered at some length in newspapers, magazines, or comparable web publications, then an article could be written, but User:Upasanamohanty/sandbox isn't even a good start for such an article, I'm afraid. For one thing, an actual article about an actor would give the actor's real name, or stage name, or most likely both. What you have linked might be appropriate for a facebook page, or some other personal site, but not, I'm afraid, for Misplaced Pages. See WP:NOTWEBHOST. DES 18:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. You have obviously misunderstood what Misplaced Pages is. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. It is not here as a website which you can use for advertising and promotion. Please read the advice, and various links, on your user talk page. I see that you have told another editor that you want to advertise yourself as an actor. You therefore need to read Misplaced Pages's views of autobiography and of conflict of interest. --David Biddulph (talk) 18:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit to correctness.

How do I correct a narrative with a source that is not commonly known but historically accurate. There has been extensive Edit wars with the Blue Lantern Wiki page and all I have asked is correct citations as to the origibnal artist and narrative as Geoff did NOT draw or wriote this name or character first as I was both the author as an early comic aficianado. I know it was a bit part and not a national publication but ACCURATE. Can you review and have citations locked when there is vandalism and edit wars by thise who are stubbiorn and IGNORE the truth and accuracy. I just ask the three publications be noted and not ciited to an erroneous source in the interest of accuracy. It is not about legal rights as it is the truth or the name and drawing that does morror the Comic character of the 1960's/ Please help as I would like this to stop and those who choose to ignore the issue and waste my time reverting improperly blocked and the narration frozen to a correct narrative, Thanks. Dan H (Spiffiest)Spiffiest (talk) 16:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Spiffiest, and welcome to the Teahouse. There are several issues here. Foremost, it is not clear from the source you have been trying to introduce to Blue Lantern Corps that the comic strip published under the Dan Hatem byline in 1980 dealt with the same Blue Lantern Corps that is a DC Comics property; since only a small preview of the page is shown, it's impossible to determine whether the same organization was depicted as in the later DC Comics publications, or if it is a mere coincidence of name. (If it is the same organization, then Dan Hatem — who may or may not be you; we have no way of knowing — may have violated DC Comics trademarks, which are distinct from copyright, in creating the strip.) Another issue is that Boston Heights newspaper, as a college rather than a community newspaper, may not be considered a reliable source for Misplaced Pages sourcing. Even if it was, the link in question is to the comic strip itself, which makes it a primary source, and for any information which may be contentious, Misplaced Pages generally requires secondary sourcing — something like an article in an independent newspaper or magazine, or a chapter in a book, stating that Blue Lantern was first published in 1980. So while the actual proof of publication may be of the utmost value in proving a claim as to who originated character(s) in a legal setting, on Misplaced Pages, it's pretty much beside the point. I hope this clarifies the situation for you. Feel free to ask any further questions you may have. —GrammarFascist _contribs 19:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

(copied from GrammarFascist's talk page by GrammarFascist _contribs 05:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC) )

I see the link referencing the publication being discussed and am glad that you have taken the time to review the dispute. Your reference to require a secondary source is patently absurd as even DC comics published once and is done for characters. Their own reference does not make the reference any more valuable for historic references. Both DC publication and the Heights are referenced in the Library of Congress, so publications both have secondary sources unlike high school papers. IT IS this reference you yourself seem to think makes it inclusive to Wikipaedea. For this reason there should be an inclusion of this character and timeline as the sources are supported for both and origination as stated as the earlier date referenced. Not every book is referenced by its source and even the Bible that has been republished almost an uncountable amount of times does not require the original author to be referenced by a secondary source. I consider your guide like the Overstreet guide as a reference to only commercial publications but not all publications of character or storyline. Spiffiest (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

(copied from GrammarFascist's talk page by GrammarFascist _contribs 05:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC) )

Spiffiest, I have moved this conversation back here from my talk page for two reasons: first, to keep the discussion all in one place, and second, to make it easier for other Teahouse volunteers to help explain Misplaced Pages policies to you so that there's no mistaking what I say for merely one editor's opinion. Requiring a secondary source is not "patently absurd"; it's how things are done at Misplaced Pages. Whether a periodical is referenced by the Library of Congress is also not a deciding factor as to whether it is considered a reliable source as Misplaced Pages defines that term. (Tangentially, the Bible was a poor choice of example, since in fact the vast majority of its authors are agreed to be not merely unknown but unidentifiable.) You're free to hold any opinion you like, but the information you want included in the Blue Lantern Corps article will continue to be removed by other editors unless and until you provide a source that is both reliable and secondary by Misplaced Pages's definitions of those terms — I bolded the links to the relevant policies this time in the hope that you would read them. There is no amount of arguing with me or anyone else that is going to change these policies, so I recommend you study them, and either find an appropriate source to use on this site, or take the source you have elsewhere. Another policy you might benefit by perusing states that "You might think that is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that's not the case." I'm sorry if this is disappointing, but I would be doing you no favors to hold out false hope. —GrammarFascist _contribs 05:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Spiffiest - Hi, please take time to review GrammarFascist's well-provided links. There are some pretty good reasons why Misplaced Pages has its guidelines in place, and this is one of the best, to require reliable, secondary sources when something contentious is added. Grammar's analysis of the sources is pretty spot on. If the information you have is accurate, it must be out there somewhere in a reliable independent source. If not, it probably will continue to be deleted. Hope this gives you a better understanding of Misplaced Pages's guidelines and procedures. Take it easy. Onel5969 15:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Spiffiest I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by a secondary source, and why it is needed. I think you are also misunderstanding what constitutes an acceptable reference. For example, "Heights Boston College 1980", which you inserted as a citation in this edit is not an acceptable source, as a) it is not a publication, and b) does not give such details as volume, number or date of publication, nor any author. Misplaced Pages is not the place to do original research which includes analysis of conflicting sources. Instead, we cite secondary sources who have already done such analysis, and who are not directly connected with the topics being written about. This helps provide a level of objectivity and distance (although it is surely true that some secondary sources are biased). Misplaced Pages only uses primary sources with care and for limited purposes, and not to support controversial or contested statements. The demand for secondary sources is made on every article on Misplaced Pages, this article is not being singled out.

I gather that you are claiming that the original version of the Blue Lanterns was drawn in a college newspaper as a comic strip, and only later appeared in the publications of DC comics. This is a somewhat extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence. At a minimum, we would need a critical review or analysis published in a reliable source that is independent of the creators of the comic, saying both that a comic by the name of "Blue Lantern" had been published at that time and place, and that the characters or content was recognizably the same or similar to the later DC publication. It is especially that last conclusion that Misplaced Pages must not draw without a source. It is not for you or I or any editor here to decide that the earlier comic is the same as the later, better known, DC publication; even if we had the entire run in front of us. We need a published reliable source that says so, and a proper citation to that source.

I also note that you, and someone editing without logging in, who may well be you, have been Edit warring to insert this content, and to insist on particular details of format and wording, at least one of which seems to be an error of grammar. ("he Blue Lantern Corps ... is an organization appeared in the Heights , a Boston College Newspaper...") Please do not engage in any further edit warring on this (or indeed any other) article. Edit warring is disruptive to the project, and can be a reason for an editor to be blocked from further editing for a period, or indeed indefinitely should the editor persist in warring. Instead follow the Bold, REvert, Discuss cycle, and once there is a known conflict, use the article talk page to discuss the matter and, I hope, reach consensus. If consensus cannot be reached through such discussions, then please use the avenues of dispute resolution.

If I or other experienced editors can be of help, feel free to post on the Teahouse, or to use {{help me}} to attract assistance to a particular talk page. DES 16:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Creating an article

I wish to create an article on the physicist René Wurmser. However, I do not know whether this article is needed or not. Is there a place where I can discuss this with other Wikipedians? The Pokémon Fan (talk) 14:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

You could ask at WP:WikiProject Physics. However, in searching Misplaced Pages, I see that several articles refer to him. If you have reliable sources to construct a biography, please create it via Articles for Creation and, if it is good, it will probably be approved. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hello, The Pokémon Fan, and welcome to the Teahouse. Whether René Wurmser is an appropriate candidate for a Misplaced Pages article depends on whether he met Misplaced Pages's Golden Rule — that is, whether articles and/or books by reliable publishers have discussed him and his work in some detail. A quick look in Google showed several possible sources, but most of them are in French, which I can't read. The good news is that references cited on English Misplaced Pages can be in any language so long as they are both relevant and reliable sources.

If M. Wurmer was indeed notable enough (as Misplaced Pages defines notability), then you can create an article so long as you cite sources which demonstrate his notability. I see that the French Misplaced Pages already has an article on René Wurmser; if you understand French well enough, you're welcome to translate some or all of the content of that article for an article here at English Misplaced Pages, though you would have to attribute translated content properly. Misplaced Pages:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Translating from other language Wikimedia projects explains how to do this. There are only two sources cited in the French article, which is generally not enough at English Misplaced Pages unless one of the sources is a book entirely devoted to the subject of the article. But those sources may be useful, if you can access them (there are no links to them at French Misplaced Pages, so they may not be available online; offline sources are also allowed, though online sources and sources in English are preferred). Thank you for your interest in improving Misplaced Pages, and feel free to return with any futher questions you have. —GrammarFascist _contribs 15:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The Pokémon Fan, A quick books.google.com search suggests a definite likelihood that there are enough sources even in English that discuss him to merit an article and if one has access to French sources, too ... well! In addition to the Articles for Creation mentioned earlier, see also Misplaced Pages:Your first article -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

from what I see in the previews, it looks like he might be more of a physiologist than a physicist so you might want to try at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biology as well. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:50, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Colourful names

Some editors have colourful names in Talk Pages. Eden's Apple (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Eden's Apple, you can get a colorful name yourself by going to Special:Preferences and changing your signature there. Be sure to check the box that says "treat the above as Wikimarkup", or it won't work. For a full description of what's allowed and disallowed in signatures, see WP:SIG--some colors, particularly very light ones, are not allowed because they are too hard for others to read. Hope that helped you. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 14:36, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Eden's Apple and welcome to the Teahouse. For customizing your signature you will find information at Misplaced Pages:Signatures#Customizing your signature, there is also this page: Misplaced Pages:Smurrayinchester's signature tutorial on how it's done and where you can find examples of signatures. When you have entered the new signature at "Preferences → User profile", the four tildes will automatically create the signature when you type them and click on save. w.carter-Talk 14:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

What is "hasten the day" in Wikiculture?

I have heard this phrase a few times "hasten the day" most recently in that one candidate for Arbitrator was called a "hasten the day" candidate. What is the meaning of this phrase? SageRad (talk) 13:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi SageRad, welcome to the Teahouse. "hasten the day" is an English expression and doesn't have a more specific meaning in wikiculture. wiktionary:hasten#Verb means to make something happen quicker, and "hasten the day" means to make it happen on an earlier day. I think it's usually used by people who consider the anticipated event to be revolutionary, whether in a good or bad way. At Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/Candidates/Gamaliel/Questions#Question from DoggySoup, the poster indicated what they meant in the next sentence. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer, but i guess i don't understand your answer because i don't see the explanation of what was meant there in the poster's question. Hmm... i have surely heard this term around within Misplaced Pages recently, a couple times. Thanks for the try. SageRad (talk) 14:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

SageRad, as I've seen it used, it's a philosophy that the arbitration committee needs to come to an end--perhaps to be replaced by something else, perhaps not--and so their preferred candidates are the ones they believe would be most disruptive to the committee either because they are viewed as opinionated, intransigent or because they wouldn't work well with other members of the committee. It's an approach you can see in the essay WP:DYNAMITE. Liz 17:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@SageRad: I saw the talkback on your talk page, and came here from that. Actually, the answer is a little different from what other editors here have said. There is a very specific meaning that has arisen in Wiki-culture, but it mostly arose at other websites, not here. (Poor me, I've been on Misplaced Pages so long that I know about this.) It is primarily a slogan that used to be used on forum board discussions at Misplaced Pages Review and continues to be used at Wikipediocracy. It is used there, often by people who have become very alienated from past experiences as Misplaced Pages editors, to denote "the day" when the English Misplaced Pages and all the Wikimedia projects (and not just ArbCom) go out of business, when the websites go dark. It is used pejoratively with respect to Misplaced Pages. One typical usage would be that when someone trolls on Misplaced Pages, they are doing something good, because by harming Misplaced Pages, they are "hastening the day". Another would be, that if so-and-so gets elected to ArbCom or becomes an administrator, or if some particularly odious decision is made by ArbCom, that it will contribute to the downfall of the project, proving that the critics of Misplaced Pages were right all along. If you look closely at the GMO PD talk page, you will see that one editor made a post, lambasting the PD, and referring to "hasten the day" in the sense that the editor thinks a bad decision will hasten the downfall of the project. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

should i create this article ?

Xiamen university Xiang'an campus .It is second campus of xiamen university.Its quiet big and there is no information about it on wikipedia.Dr. Pankaj Sharma (talk) 12:25, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello Dr. Pankaj Sharma, and welcome to the Teahouse. Please read Misplaced Pages's Golden Rule and consider, has this campus been written about in several published independent reliable sources that are not merely local, with significant coverage, say at least several paragraphs, in each? This means not blogs, not publications of the university itself, not directory entries, and not purely local newspapers. It means publications with editorial control and a reputation for accuracy. In other words, is this topic notable? If and only if the answer is "yes" should you consider an article. In which case please also read Your First Article and Referencing for Beginners. Alternatively, the campus could be included in the existing article about the university. DES 12:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion Tag

My first submission was tagged - Speedy Deletion. No understanding of why. Not sure it was submitted correctly in total or whether references were adequate or correctly inserted.

Subject matter Chadwick Mobile Digital Mall explains new patented mobile digital technology. Can someone help with 2nd attempt? Robertson Drew (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Robertson Drew, I'm not sure that you have correctly understood what a reference is in this context. The references section of Chadwick Mobile Digital Mall contains a list of e-mail addresses. References should list the details of sources for the material in the article, such as newspaper articles, books, etc. While the article you created has not yet been deleted, I would suggest having a read of Misplaced Pages:Your first article and perhaps following the procesdure for creating an article that is outlined there. That will take you via the drafts process, where you can get feedback on your proposed article and not have to worry about speedy deletion. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding this question, Robertson Drew, to remove the e-mail references, you just need to edit the article and delete that content from the edit window. Instructions on how to insert proper references are given at Help:Referencing for beginners. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

That said, a Google search returns no results for "Chadwick Mobile Digital Mall", apart from pages related to the Misplaced Pages article. That doesn't bode well for the availability of references, Robertson Drew, unless a different name is being used? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, Robertson Drew, but I have deleted this as being excessively promotional. It also violated WP:CRYSTAL in that it was about a product not yet released, without any evidence of significant outside discussion on the planned release. In fact, it read like a press release. If you want to try again, I urge you to first read Misplaced Pages's Golden Rule and Your First Article, then if you think the article can establish notability of its topic, assemble a list of independent reliable sources that have covered the topic in some detail. Then and only then, use the article wizard to create a draft under the Articles for Creation project. This allows the draft to be improved without being subject to all the deletion criteria until it is reviewed and accepted by an experienced editor. DES 12:46, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft Lleyson Hopkin Davy v2

Added a couple extra references here. Comments/ constructive edit welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davymi (talk • contribs) 09:22, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

For reference, the draft is Draft:Lleyson Hopkin Davy. —teb728 t c 09:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse Davymi. Without getting to your draft yet, let me give you some mechanical advice:

• To start a new section at the Teahouse please click the blue "Ask a question" button at the top. This will post your question at the top of the page. At the Teahouse the questions at the bottom of the page are old questions. I moved your question to the top for you.
• Please enter a link the page you are asking about: That will save hosts from having to look up your contributions. I linked it for you above but entering ].

—teb728 t c 09:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Davymi, there are a couple of newspapers/journals cited - the South Australian Register and the London Mining Journal. Is it possible to add article titles and page numbers to these? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, yes I am in the process of tracking these down. . bit tricky being so old, but the Mining Journal still exists and I have made enquiries. Fingers crossed they will be added shortly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davymi (talk • contribs) 08:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, but can I ask how you know what the sources say if you haven't seen them, Davymi? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I have digital screenshots of the txt excerpts (several contempory newspapers) referencing the information, but not the page numbers from the original journal entry. As you say I need to go back to the original journal to get the page no.s etc. to cite correctly - this is in train. Cheers davymi. 20.25pm 24/11/15 std. East. Time Aust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davymi (talk • contribs) 09:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Captcha

I have opened an account, still i have to enter captcha while editing. This is time waste.Eden's Apple (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse Eden's Apple. Your account is a little under two days old. When it is four days old, you will be Misplaced Pages:Autoconfirmed and will not have to enter captchas. —teb728 t c 08:22, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello @Eden's Apple:, As teb728 says your account is a little new. When your account will be four days old and have at least 10 edits you will not have to enter captchas again in future. Please read more about Autoconfirmed users here. Have a great time on Misplaced Pages Happy editing. Regards Singh 15:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Is there a place for help on leads?

Hey guys! Name's DannyMusicEditor. I mostly edit articles strictly related to music, mostly rock and metal at that, but there are exceptions. Recently, I have been wanting to help Thirty Seconds to Mars' third album, This Is War, become a GA article. However, it has a very poor lead, and I would like to know how to get some help to fix that (I'm just as poor at writing them). dannymusiceditor 19:34, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

@DannyMusicEditor: welcome to the teahouse!

The guidance for lead sections is at WP:LEAD. Essentially the first sentence should provide the Who/what/Where/When essentials about the subject of the article (not necessarily the Why because that can get too complicated to work into a simple sentence), and then the rest of the lead should summarize the rest of the article (The Why can be detailed here). Often times the content we have for singles and albums does not necessitate anything other than a "lead" - artificially creating a "body" that merely is section bloat. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome indeed, DannyMusicEditor. There is a good summary essay on creating leads here: WP:CREATELEAD initially created by a Misplaced Pages editor BullRangifer to help other editors cut through the more official MOSLEAD guidelines. It has a handy table for creating a lead too. A lead is supposed to include elements of each section of an article in summary form. Encyclopedia sentences are easy to write: e.g.- John Smith drove his car to the store. No need to get flowerly. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 22:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Checkingfax for the WP:CREATELEAD mention above. I updated the Misplaced Pages:Tip of the day/November 24 tip accordingly. Cheers! JoeHebda (talk) 17:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Moving an image to Commons

Hi, in the article Oliver! is an image, that I would like to use in another language Misplaced Pages (File:Oliver Theatre Royal Bill Board.JPG). For over a year this image is marked for transfer to Commons, but it still hasn't transferred and I don't know how to do this (all my tries went wrong). Is there any person who would be so kind, to do that, so that it can be used in other language Wikipedias? 84.188.73.33 (talk) 08:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I am working on it now. I'll give a holler when done.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:12, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

All done. I tweaked the name slightly to lowercase the JPG. It's at File:Oliver Theatre Royal Bill Board.jpg. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I'm in a hurry at the moment, but tomorror I will use it in the German Misplaced Pages. Thank you! 84.188.77.150 (talk) 20:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I have integrated it into the corresponding article in the German Misplaced Pages now. Thank you very much again. 79.224.78.84 (talk) 18:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Glad to help.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:03, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Making an article live in search engines.

Dear Representatives, I'm Trying to write a information flowing article of my Idol (Local Actor/director) from Nepal. And i guess, i made it up with good contents too, but when i search it in search engines like Google or Yahoo i couldn't find the listing of the particular article. Hope you will guide me in a ease way, Misplaced Pages Article name : Arpan Thapa Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/Arpan_Thapa

regards, Nikhil AkhilThakuri (talk) 07:00, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, AkhilThakuri. Misplaced Pages has no direct influence on how Google or Yahoo will display search results. They determine that with their own algorithms. In my experience, a Misplaced Pages article will usually display high in an online search. The most likely way to make a specific Misplaced Pages article display higher in search engine results is to improve and expand the article.

I live in California, and when I search Google for "Arpan Thapa", the Misplaced Pages article about him is #7 on the search list. That isn't bad. Cullen Let's discuss it 08:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse. The way to link to a Misplaced Pages page is to provide a wikilink; ] renders as Arpan Thapa. Your question about Google and Yahoo needs to be addressed to Google and to Yahoo, not to Misplaced Pages, but you may find that it will take a little while for their databases to be updated. --David Biddulph (talk) 08:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi AkhilThakuri, when I search with Google for Arpan Thapa from Sweden the article is right there on the first page. As Cullen328 points out, the time it takes before the servers in a country pick up on a new article varies. I'm sure it will pop up in Nepal soon. Also, when David Biddulph wrote about a Wikilink, that link has nothing to do with Google or Yahoo. It should not be in the article itself (I have removed it now) it is the way other articles in the Misplaced Pages links to the article. w.carter-Talk 10:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi AkhilThakuri, when I want to find something quick on Misplaced Pages I go to Google or Bing and type in:

Arpan Thapa Misplaced Pages, or if I'm feeling lazy I type in: arpan thapa wiki

Your actor shows up #2 on Google this way. Arpan Thapa is indexed. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 01:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Wikipedians for all the suggestion and effort that you have made to lead my article with a proper guidelines.

Hope for future talks, regards, AkhilThakuri (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

But let's not forget that we don't really care about search engine rankings. We are here to build an encyclopedia.--ukexpat (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Mike "Greeny" Green (again)

I reviewed the eighth submission of this draft. It had already been declined seven times. I declined it an eighth time, on notability grounds (as usual). I observed that, in response to a request to insert wikilinks to other articles, the author had single-bracketed them rather than double-bracketing them. This resubmission cycle has been going on for more than two months. I nominated it for Miscellany for deletion. The author, User:Aagreeny4, then posted the following to my talk page: "I have taken this paper to the writing center at my school, Eckerd College 4 times. Each time with the comments and suggestions after my declines. They are professionals and have written Misplaced Pages pages, and they can not see what the problem is and why I am being declined. I would like to talk to your supervisor to see why I am being declined and to discuss with them why you are treating me so rudely with your remarks."

First, we are all volunteers here, and no volunteer editor has a supervisor, but you are welcome to discuss with my peers. Second, as to the advice that you are getting at Eckerd College, I assume that when you say that they are professionals, you mean that they are professional writers and faculty members. The fact that they have written Misplaced Pages pages doesn't mean that they are experienced Misplaced Pages editors or how familiar they are with Misplaced Pages, only that they are Misplaced Pages editors. Maybe the pages that they have written have had to do with literary criticism or language, topics for which many reliable sources are available. They may not be familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies as to biographies of living persons. You have been declined by multiple volunteer editors, so that presumably your question is addressed to multiple volunteer editors, not just to me. (I agree that I drew a line in the sand that they hadn't drawn by requesting deletion.) Some of them had commented that you weren't addressing the comments of other reviewers.

I welcome the comments of other editors (who, as noted, are my peers).

Robert McClenon (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to know if you went to college? Where did you graduate from what was your degree in and was it a PH.D. ? I would like to be contacted by one the cofounder of Misplaced Pages, if Jimmy Whales is available I would like to talk to him about this.

Aagreeny4 (talk) 04:55, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Robert's educational background has no bearing on whether or not the article you are trying to write is based on writing which already exists in substantial, independent sources. If it is not, it will be declined again. If such sources do not exist, the article will not exist. --Jayron32 05:42, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Aagreeny4, any editor may contact Jimmy Wales - he gives details at User:Jimbo Wales#Contacting me. Your particular question seems to fall into the category of "General Misplaced Pages questions" there. --Gronk Oz (talk) 07:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

First, as Jimmy Wales says, for General Misplaced Pages questions, go to the Help Desk or the Teahouse. We are here at the Teahouse. You can post to the talk page of User talk: Jimbo Wales, and you will definitely get an answer, but it may or may not be from Jimmy Wales, and it may or may not be useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Robert, I understand your frustration. I find it hard to understand why some new editors ignore the advice they are given and continue submitting their drafts without correcting the issues pointed out to them. All the same, I'm not entirely certain that deleting the draft is the optimal outcome here.

It's a shame that the Chronicle of Higher Education source doesn't seem to be online; it might at least begin to establish notability, but unless someone who volunteers here has access to back issues, I don't think it would be appropriate to AGF that there is substantial coverage in this case. I've never heard of Scholatic Coach before, and I don't know whether it counts as WP:RS; several Misplaced Pages articles reference the magazine, but it does not have an article about it here.

I did some Googling for sources. Using newspaper search, I found a couple of articles in The Michigan Daily, which is a university paper but may be one of the few of those which counts as a reliable source; I encourage other Teahouse volunteers to share their opinions about that. The Michigan Daily - Nov 11, 1996 and The Michigan Daily - Nov 19, 1998 are the articles in question.

I'm not sure about this source, either: Virginia Medical Monthly – 1990 It's published by The Medical Society of Virginia, but I can't tell how much fact-checking or editorial control are in place.

I also found Toledo Blade - Oct 28, 1989, which is more than a mere mention, and the Blade is indisputably RS. It's not as meaty a source as would be ideal, but it does get us started establishing "Greeny"'s notability.

I think that if other editors consider at least one of the sources I found other than the Toledo Blade article usable for notability purposes, that would tend to indicate that there's a decent chance of there being additional usable offline sources. The draft creator's poor compliance with Misplaced Pages standards of behavior shouldn't lead to the draft's deletion if other, more experienced editors can establish the subject's notability.

So, I ask you, Teahouse colleagues: Do any of you have access to the offline sources already cited in the draft, and what do you make of the sources I found and listed above? Thanks in advance for your input. —GrammarFascist _contribs 07:44, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Second, I agree that deleting the draft is not the optimal outcome. However, the optimal outcome is not one that we, the Teahouse editors, can achieve. The optimal outcome would have been for the original poster to accept advice from multiple reviewers and make improvements to the draft. It is obvious that the original poster is not paying attention to advice, and is resorting to arguments from authority, and is otherwise being tendentious. The question is whether deleting the draft is the least sub-optimal option available to use. Since I don't want to spend hours essentially blowing up the draft and starting over, which is what some of us are willing to do, it was at least a way to decide where to go from here. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Third, the issue where some editors are willing to go above and beyond the call of duty is finding reliable sources. There are several problems with the draft. One of them is the sources. Another is the cruft (such as the Awards section). Another is the (recently introduced) need for copy-editing of malformed links (introduced because the original poster apparently didn't view the revised draft after adding the malformed links). As a result, the real question is whether we, the Teahouse volunteers, should essentially write a new article, because that is essentially what we have to do, since the original poster isn't responding to advice. I thank anyone who is willing to write the new article, but that is beyond the call of duty. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

"They are professionals and have written Misplaced Pages pages, and they can not see what the problem is." Ask for their Misplaced Pages account names, so you can discuss the draft with them directly. Or ask for them to discuss on your talk page. Maproom (talk) 09:52, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Fourth, or ask them to discuss here at the Teahouse. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I am not convinced that "blowing up and starting over" is needed here, although some additional work would be. I have determined that the Chronicle of Higher Education is held by a university library near me, and I am arranging to view or obtain a photocopy of the cited article. That will be a start. DES 17:53, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I have electronic access to the Chronicle of Higher Education via ProQuest, but unfortunately only from 1988 onwards (the article is from 1987). Thanks to DES for his efforts to get a copy. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:29, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Tone of Discourse

On the one hand, I would like to thank those editors who are making a special effort to find the needed sources for this draft. On the other hand, there is a tangentially related topic that I would also like to mention. I think that the original poster approached the repeated declines of his article with a non-collaborative attitude, coming to my talk page and demanding to speak to my supervisor and complaining about rude treatment, after having ignored our comments, preferring to seek advice from professors and then use them for an argument from authority. If an editor comes to Misplaced Pages to participate in Misplaced Pages as an electronic workplace, they will do well to work collaboratively with other editors. Editors who treat other editors with respect are likely also to be treated with respect, while editors who show that they do not want to listen often are not listened to, or acquire reputations as difficult editors. I would like to know whether other editors agree that Aagreeny4 started off with a non-collaborative attitude. I would ask AAgreeny4 to consider how their tone of discourse (and habit of ignoring suggestions) is likely to be received. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, Robert McClenon. Asking to speak to your supervisor and asking whether you have a PhD is not the way to engage with other editors. It seems that Aagreeny4 has some fundamental misunderstandings about how Misplaced Pages works (and specifically its collaborative nature as a project). I would suggest that you do some reading about the project, Aagreeny4, perhaps starting with Misplaced Pages:Introduction and Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I note that Aagreeny4 had not received a welcome message, so I've posted one that contains lots of links to help new editors learn about Misplaced Pages. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, Aagreeny4's user name suggests a possible conflict of interest. Has that been enquired about anywhere? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:33, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I asked whether the article was an autobiography, and was told that it is not. However, I did not ask whether he had a close connection to the subject. Does Aagreeny4 have a close connection to the subject that would constitute a conflict of interest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 16:14, 22 November 2015 (UTC)‎

First I want to thank those who are willing to help me with my page, especially GrammarFascist, DES, and Cordless Lary. Thank you fro the welcome not also. Thank you for going to research the Chronicle of Higher Education and for asking about others views on the sources you found to seek notability.

Robert, I have collaborated with everyone, who has declined my page. I have gone to their talk page and asked for advice, suggestions, and help or to clarify any questions I had. I have taken all of their advice except for one reviewer, who I thought contradicted others suggestion and advice. Each draft has changed significantly since the original. I have rephrased my wording, added many sources, cut out many of the primary sources, added more secondary notably sources, cut out more primary sources, and finally i trimmed down each section of the article almost in half. Can you tell me how any of this is not showing improvement, ignoring comments, and not collaborative? Also I tried the wikilinks, which are a type of citing I have never seen before. I made one small error that you keep fixating on, a simple mistake not putting in 2 brackets and only using one. You should have just stated it was wrong and how to correct it instead of insulting me and my writing by stating "you don't review why you are submitting". I would assume this mistake is common for new users. I feel you have not reviewed all my drafts and the changes I have made from each draft submitted, and how much of a change there has been from the beginning to this latest draft. Your comments to me have been rude, disrespectful, and unprofessional. If you want to talk about tone of discourse, I think you should look at yourself also. You have insulted me, my writing, and my college. That is the reason that I asked to speak to your supervisor. I have called Jimmy Whales and left a message and am waiting to talk to him about you. I also asked you a question on your educational background, which you ignored. Can you answer that question? And it does have bearing on the article, if you are going to make these comments and the way you make them I want to know your credibility to make them. Additionally you wanted to talk about conflict of interest. I think you have a conflict of interest with my article and should excuse yourself from commenting or reviewing my article, because each time someone has commented on this talk page stating they don't think it should be nominated for deletion, you come back and attack me. They make other suggestions and are willing to help with article and sources, you again tell them not to do this and attack me. And then you write about my discourse after the fact that others are willing to help. Without looking at your own discourse towards me.

Thank you to everyone for giving me advice that I will use in revising, and for your willingness to help me.

My father stayed up late last night and into the early morning talking with someone who had an alcohol problem. This is above and beyond his job, but that is the type of person that he is. He is the most notable person in his profession and had saved countless lives with his message. I want others to know about him and how much of an impact he has on others lives.

I have worked very hard. made changes, and taken advice from editors. I don't want to be deleted. I really want to create this page, that I have worked so hard on.

Thank you all for the help. I look forward to hearing what others think of the mentioned articles from Grammerfascist, and the others who are trying to access the article in the Chronicle of Higher Education. Thank you for helping, being nice, and respectful to my questions and concerns.

Aagreeny4 (talk) 22:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Aagreeny4 You need to understand some things about how Misplaced Pages works. First of all, all of us are volunteers, and none of us has a "supervisor", not even Jimmy Whales is a supervisor. Secondly, Misplaced Pages runs on displayed editing skill and citations provided, not on credentials. The academic degrees or qualifications an editor may have (or claim to have) are pretty much ignored, and it is generally seen as hostile to demand statements of such qualifications. Such demands are routinely ignored. Thirdly, while I have sometimes disagreed with Robert McClenon, including about the draft you started, he is a respected editor who puts in a great deal of time and effort reviewing AfC submissions (among other tasks), a generally thankless job. He sees a great many hopeless submissions, and a great many new editors who seem determined to get those hopeless submissions into Misplaced Pages.

Also, you were asked about your connection, if any, with Mike Green. You have stated that you are not Green. Do you have any connection with him? If you do, what is it, (in general terms) please? DES 22:59, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

He answered that question, although not intending to answer it, and that answers that. He wrote: "My father stayed up late last night and into the early morning talking with someone who had an alcohol problem. This is above and beyond his job, but that is the type of person that he is. He is the most notable person in his profession and had saved countless lives with his message. I want others to know about him and how much of an impact he has on others lives." He is writing this biography of a living person for his father. It is not an autobiography, but it has the same flaws as an autobiography. I will note that, just as your father often went above and beyond the call of duty, some of the editors here have gone above and beyond the call of duty to try to help you (when you will not help yourself) to establish notability for your father. Give them a great deal of respect. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, conflict of interest has a very specific meaning in Misplaced Pages. Please read the conflict of interest policy. AAgreeny4 wrote: "Additionally you wanted to talk about conflict of interest. I think you have a conflict of interest with my article and should excuse yourself from commenting or reviewing my article, because each time someone has commented on this talk page stating they don't think it should be nominated for deletion, you come back and attack me." I do not have a conflict of interest, and Aagreeny4 does have a conflict of interest, but I will recuse myself from further reviews on the grounds of having become involved. Is that satisfactory? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I will not review your draft again. I do reserve the right to comment, and will probably do so. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Aagreeny4, it may be that you haven't understood what "conflict of interest" refers to in the Misplaced Pages meaning of the term, but please refrain from accusing other editors of having a conflict of interest without providing evidence - particularly in cases such as this, where you have an acknowledged family relationship to the article subject, and hence a conflict of interest yourself. On the qualifications point, Robert McClenon does not need a PhD to interpret Misplaced Pages:Notability (people). In general, it is not considered acceptable on Misplaced Pages to ask other editors to reveal personal details about themselves. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:01, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

DES, I understand that you all are volunteers and that no one has a supervisor. I learned that after Robert told me in the beginning. The only reason I mentioned supervisor after that is because he brought it up again, and I was explaining my actions. But thank you fro explaining that to me. I understand that the job requires a lot of time and effort that goes thankless. I do thank everyone who has helped me and for all their effort. Especially everyone who has treated me with respect, and have commented with suggestions, and put in care to help me. I have realized that editors don't like sharing their educational background and don't think it is necessary to be provided. However I think that should be changed to at least show that editor have some type of college degree or attaining it now, to show that they are knowledgeable on the subject and can critique others work. It just I don't know everyone's background what credibility they have, or if they are just a random person trying to make comments. Thank you for your responses to my statements and help.

Robert, i would like to state that I am a She, and I did intend to answer that in my response. I do give other editor a great deal of respect as long as they are respectful to me, which everyone else is. I have helped myself to establish notability, and others are adding additional notability, so I don't know what you are talking about. i think you do have a conflict of interest with my article, why else would you attack me and my work so many times? Even if you do not know me or my father it is still a conflict with way you respond so negatively toward me and repetitively. It is satisfactory that you will no linger review my drafts, but I do wish that you stop commenting also, unless you do it in a respectful manner. I would also like an apology from you for the way you have treated me and attacked me.

Cordless Lary, I did provide the evidence of Roberts conflict of interest, how he negates what others are say, and attacks my work and me. He clearly has some type of deep involvement in my work, or my article, that he needs to stay away from. I do recognize that I am related to the subject as he is my father. But I have had several neutral parties read my work so I can keep my own personal sides out. I have realized that editors don't like sharing their educational background and don't think it is necessary to be provided. However I think that should be changed to at least show that editor have some type of college degree or attaining it now, to show that they are knowledgeable on the subject and can critique others work. It just I don't know everyone's background what credibility they have, or if they are just a random person trying to make comments. Thank you for your time and i will take your comments into account when editing my article.

Thank yo to everyone who has commented, offered suggestions, and for treating me and my work with respect. I will use your advice in my articles. I look forward to hearing others views on the articles that GrammerFascist kindly found, and if others agree with their notability. And i look forward to hearing about finding the Chronicle of Higher Education in a library by DES.

Aagreeny4 (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Aagreeny4, the reason why Robert McClenon has made so many comments on your draft article is that he commits a significant portion of his time on Misplaced Pages to reviewing drafts. On your conflict of interest, it is not sufficient to say that you have asked some neutral parties to read your edits and that you will take our concerns into account. You need to follow the guidance at WP:COI. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It is clear to me that User:Aagreeny4, in accusing me of conflict of interest, doesn't know what conflict of interest is, since she has one and I do not, and there is no way that she can claim that I have one. Her willingness to go on with this claim after she is corrected implies that she doesn't really want to know about Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. I will interpret her argument as meaning that I am involved, and I have already agreed to recuse from any further reviews. If she really thinks that I have a personal non-Misplaced Pages interest against her, she is free to present it, but she should first read the boomerang essay and realize that idle allegations of conflict of interest, when she just means involvement, are personal attacks. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

There are several reasons why people edit Misplaced Pages. Most of us do so out of some sort of commitment to the concept of Misplaced Pages as a free source of knowledge. All of the regular editors here at the Teahouse fall into that class, even if we disagree on details. There are a few editors who want to cause trouble, vandals and trolls. User:Aagreeny4 is neither. She isn't trying to cause trouble, but she isn't trying to enhance Misplaced Pages. She is what is known as a single purpose account. Her only agenda is to get an article about her father accepted. As the Misplaced Pages policy on single-purpose accounts explains, single-purpose accounts are not prohibited, but are likely to be viewed unfavorably. I would like to thank those editors who are going beyond the call of duty to help an editor who won't help herself. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay Robert, by Misplaced Pages's definition it would not be classified as a Conflict of interest on your part. However in real life it would, something is obstructing the proper judgement of me and my writing. I don't know your reasoning, but it is clear in the way you have negatively commented, negate what others are saying, constantly try to offend me, and treat me rudely. Involvement is closely related to conflict of interest, as shown by the Misplaced Pages definition. "This is because involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute". Saying that these are not personal attacks are wrong. Saying "do you even read your articles before submitting", claiming that I am lazy, or dumb. Fixating on my bracket error. Creating a section on my tone of discourse, that I am non-collaborative, again attacking me. Being at a college I know how to collaborate and work with others, taking their advice, which I have also done here and on my page. You stated "Editors who treat other editors with respect are likely also to be treated with respect", I have never felt respect from you whatsoever. You also attacked my school by saying that those helping with the article probably have not written this type and don't know anything. Finally you keep claiming that I won't help myself. Another attack on me, I have asked numerous users for help and take everything they say into consideration and use in my article. I have revised many times, and am constantly working on the paper, and always welcome others input that is said respectfully. Finally I am trying to enhance Misplaced Pages with this article. How do you know that I am a single-person account? You have no proof. I will work on other articles after this one is accepted.

Aagreeny4 (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

But will you work on other articles even if this one does not get approved? Having one's own article deleted or not approved from the draft status are quite common and normal things for new users. Getting fixated on this article will not help you, if you want to keep contributing in the future. Many of the Misplaced Pages's common terms like "notability" and "conflict of interest" may seem rude at first but they do not mean same thing as in the common real life language. I think you should calm down a bit. These fine folks have been trying to help, and have even been trying to get their hands on the references you cited to check if your father is notable within Misplaced Pages's standards. Ceosad (talk) 23:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ceosad. Possibly. I don't think those terms are rude, that wasn't the problem for me. I know I have to find sources that show notability. I agree that they have all been trying to help and I really appreciate that, and am taking all their advice in working on my article. I think it is so nice that they are taking the time to help and even finding sources. The only person I have not taken into consideration is Robert because of his attitude toward me. I thank everyone again, and thank you for commenting and helping.

Aagreeny4 (talk) 23:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Aagreeny4, the term is single-purpose account, not "single-person". I hope that there is only one person operating your account, as sharing of accounts is not allowed. Robert says that you are a single-purpose account based on your contribution history. If you plan to edit other articles, why don't you consider doing that now? It would show a commitment to the aims of Misplaced Pages and demonstrate that you aren't just here to promote your father. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Article title incorrect

How do I change an article title? My article about SAP S/4HANA recently went live but with an incorrect title of "4HANA". So the “S/” is missing from the title, the "S/" is important because it signifies that it is a “suite” of software. Some where along the editing, someone removed the "S/". The page should be called "SAP S/4HANA" (you will see the rest of the info in the text refers to it as SAP S/4HANA too). I contacted the editor (SwisterTwister) last week but still no response/edit, can you help make change it from 4HANA to SAP S/4HANA? Many thanks! Olivia0452 (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)Olivia0452

You will have to move it, Olivia0452. (Click here for more information) Frank (User Page) (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

But she won't be able to move it yet, as she needs more edits to become autoconfirmed. Note also that with a slash in the article name there might be slight confusion in regard to the talk page, see WP:NC-SLASH (in that Talk:SAP S/4HANA, if it existed, would presumably have a link to the non-existent page Talk:SAP S). David Biddulph (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I suggest that we instead move it ot the "full" name of "SAP Business Suite 4 SAP HANA" which avoids the issues with a name containing a slash, and is less cryptic as well. Olivia0452, would you object to this? If not, I will do the move. DES 23:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

@Imfrankliu, David Biddulph, and DESiegel: What if we try to cover all bases and do the following as the title: SAP Business Suite 4 SAP HANA (SAP S/4HANA) . Would that work too? Olivia0452 (talk) 09:18, 20 November 2015 (UTC)Olivia0452

The key question is what is its WP:COMMONNAME? That's what should be used as the article's title per guidelines.--ukexpat (talk) 13:58, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

@Olivia0452: That would have the same problem of containing a slash. --David Biddulph (talk) 14:01, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly, I see that the article has been moved and Talk:SAP S/4HANA does now exist, but it doesn't have the spurious link to Talk:SAP S which WP:NC-SLASH suggests it would have. Does anyone understand why? - David Biddulph (talk) 14:09, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:NC-SLASH says that "if an article has a forward slash in its name, its corresponding talk page may display a redundant subpage level-up link at the top". I'm not sure why it's may and what that depends on, but it seems that it's not the case here. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

@David Biddulph:, so now that Talk:SAP S/4HANA exists the page has been corrected to have the correct SAP S/4HANA title? Am I understanding that correctly? Otherwise, I guess the name "SAP Business Suite 4 SAP HANA" would also be OK as a page title (although "SAP S/4HANA" is more commonly used but if it causes problems... then "SAP Business Suite 4 SAP HANA" is fine). Thanks for all the help trying to sort this out, appreciate it. Olivia0452 (talk) 06:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)Olivia0452

The article has been moved to SAP S/4HANA as you originally requested, and there don't appear to be any consequential problems, so there is no need to look for any less commonly used name. - David Biddulph (talk) 08:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

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