Misplaced Pages

Just so it's clear to third parties who has the credible sources on their side, you now think JAMA is part of the conspiracy, and therefore isn't credible either? -- Cri du canard 09:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Separately, I'm curious why you manipulated the section title on the talk page. -- Cri du canard 09:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Although JAMA is considered a reliable source in Wiki, it has a checkered career, has had less stature amongst many MDs (wrt to other certain jounals), and at times has been considered weak, lighterweight. This is a historical reminder. As for the asterisk - a qualifying footnote. And yes, I see much of conventional medicine's actions in terms of defensive, self-serving economics & politics, pretty much an outgrowth of normal human behavior when too much power and money are involved w/o true freedom of choice (including competition). Many will maintain that Science can be much different than the institutional creature spawned by regulated (less competitive) medicine. I am not favorable to monolithic conspiracy theories. You continue to ignore the effect of the most recent SCIENTIFIC work i.e. BCCA's execrable little piss piece filled with misrepresention & error out the ying yang in preference to the PNAS, NIH and Finnish Public Health dissertation 2005-6. Your statements of "no benefit" & "ps" are simply counterfactual, and confutes less than authoritatively proven with unscientific, when conventional medicine often has NO (zero) corresponding data (level or amount), and when it does, the tests frequently have multiple errors that suggest a pattern. Your unfair POV warring needs to stop. You simply have the benefit of the residual of trillions of dollars expenditures & then demand equal resources from orthomed in a POV war of attrition.--TheNautilus 11:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Sir, I solely seek NPOV on the page. The "war of attrition" line strikes me as ironic, because, as I read through the archive and edit history, for the last several months you've treated the page as your personal fiefdom (back in your anonymous 69.... identity), blizzarding anyone who attempted to address what used to be some pretty awful POV problems with article through edit-warring and wikistalking people who dared to suggest that the page had POV problems. As with other pseudoscience pages, public-choice theory comes into play; skeptics don't have the same interest in watchdogging a page that the proponents do, so the proponents have the benefit of staking out a page near and dear to them and bullying away casual editors through persistence. The snake-oil sellers have the incentive to create thousands of web pages trumpeting false claims, while mainstream medical personnel are busy treating real patients, so the number of full-time skeptics taking on the unrewarding task of playing Whack-A-Mole refutation games is small.

You say Your statements of "no benefit" & "ps" are simply counterfactual But I say that your statements of benefit and science for orthomolecular medicine qua orthomolecular medicine are counterfactual. Fortunately, the miracle of NPOV is that the standard for inclusion in the article is verifiability, rather than platonic truth, so we need not resolve the question conclusively on this talk page. Proponents get to make their claims and cite their evidence, and mainstream medicine supporters get to make their claims and cite their evidence, and the readership can decide whether JAMA and QuackWatch and the Canadian government and the NIMH or orthomed.org better approximates reality. -- Cri du canard 11:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Thought experiment

The fictional pseudoscience of fromagalogy argues that the moon is made of cheese, and states that their theory predicts that there will be lots of craters on the moon through analogy to the pock-marks on Muenster cheese or holes in Swiss cheese. Samantha Scurvy, a prominent mainstream astronomer, publishes a paper observing the heights and depths of numerous moon craters. Can we say that Professor Scurvy's paper provides support for fromagalogy because it acknowledges the existence of moon craters? (Just asking.) -- Cri du canard 11:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Bad analogy. --Michael C. Price 11:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Progress

I'm glad see that a tag has been used instead of a mindless revert. Perhaps we can start making progress. --Michael C. Price 12:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Please help me! Probably it is my fault, but after reading the whole article, fixing some references, I can't see why the neutrality is disputed so much. Nearly every statement is referenced. NCurse _work 15:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, but some editors think they're on a crusade to cleanse Misplaced Pages of all things orthomolecular and that the ends justify the means. --Michael C. Price 16:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi NCurse, the lead paragraph was disputed and has recently been significantly altered. Presently, I am not sure whether the current version is going to be an acceptable compromise, so I wasn't planning to remove the tag just yet. Addhoc 17:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Addhoc is correct. I added the tag to this version of the page, which failed to note the full extent of mainstream opposition to orthomolecular medicine. The page is considerably better now than it was a week ago, but because it's still in flux, we're keeping the tag to highlight to other editors that there is a dispute. I frankly worry that there will be reversions if I leave the page alone for a week; Nautilus has repeatedly restored POV bias and removed the POV tag when he thought no one was watching. -- Cri du canard 22:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I really would like to help. It seems I'm neutral here in the dispute. Please tell me which parts you disapprove and we'll see. NCurse _work 17:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The discussion foccussed on the paragraph containing the phrase "a minority view held by a small number of medical practitioners" and whether according to WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV, this should be the second paragraph. Addhoc 17:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It also focussed on the blantly false but apparently sourced statement "Scientific research has found no benefit from orthomolecular therapy for any disease." --Michael C. Price 18:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think skeptics would prefer to define OM as the pseudoscientific belief that food nutrients have the capability to cure all disease. While proponents want to present OM as partially in the mainstream, linking to research showing that vitamin levels above minimum amounts can have some beneficial effects for example. Addhoc 19:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Ames claim

The sentence It is this broader use of the term orthomolecular, as originally defined, that defines its usage by mainstream researchers such as Bruce Ames is not supported by the cited reference, which does not use the term orthomolecular at all. -- Cri du canard 21:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Weasel wording issues

MichaelCPrice protested the weasel wording, so I made the following sentence quite concrete:

The orthomolecular field, although viewed by its supporters as science-based, remains controversial among every mainstream medical organization that has opined on the issue, including the American Cancer Society, the American Psychiatric Association, the National Institute of Mental Health, the American Academy of Pediatrics, CHAMPUS, and the Canadian Paediatric Society, because of unsubstantiated claims, lack of proven benefits, and serious toxic effects.

I believe to the best of my knowledge that this statement is correct. But the statement is certainly falsifiable: if the claim is incorrect, then I have no doubt that MichaelCPrice or Nautilus can find a mainstream medical organization that has studied OM with a task force and released a statement endorsing it. Until an OM supporter finds such a statement, then this should be the NPOV text, because it is a statement of verified fact, whereas the insertion of the qualifier "some" creates a false POV impression that violates WP:AWW.

Are there other claims of weasel wording? If not, I'll remove the tag. -- Cri du canard 07:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Your use of the "every" is unsupported and misleading: "some" is more neutral and verifiable; "every" is not verifiable or verified. To pretend that it is is just twisting the meaning of words for your own ends. You know it to be misinformation. It is therefore sneaky vandalism and will be reported unless you stop pushing it into the article. --Michael C. Price 07:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't see why: "every mainstream medical organization that has opined on the issue" - it's correct like that. Or how else would you say the same? NCurse _work 07:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It's like seeing some black swans and assuming all swans are black. Basic logic. Should I post some positive studies (as I have) and assume that all studies are positive? --Michael C. Price 08:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Canard's edit summary comment "WP:AWW: If both critics and supporters note this, then there's no need to qualify the statement" is another example of his double standards and weasel words. Canard inserted the comment about OM citations from the mainstream literature with the "Critics note" appelation. I changed this to "Both critics and supporters " since supporters see this as a strength of OM (that it is backed up by mainstream studies). Canard, realising that his attempt to poison the well has spectacularly backfired attempts to remove it -- too late, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. --Michael C. Price 08:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It makes no sense to have a sentence that begins "Critics and supporters both say X." If it's not controversial, and everyone agrees that it's correct, then just have a sentence that says X. That's just good writing, no conspiracy there. Where's the problem, much less the need for these personal attacks? -- Cri du canard 13:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, then, what do you think about : "many mainstream medical organizations including..."? NCurse _work 08:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Many" is fine with me. --Michael C. Price 09:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Many" is a weasel word that falsely implies that there are others who feel otherwise. I'll concede to "Many" when MichaelCPrice cites a reliable source that "all" is incorrect. I've left the text at "many" as a place-holder to stop Price's edit-warring, but "every mainstream medical organization that has opined on the issue" is a verified and absolutely correct statement of fact, rather than a characterization. I don't think I'm wrong, but all it takes is one counterexample to prove me wrong. Where is it? -- Cri du canard 13:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not how WP works. If a statement is challenged refs have to be provided, or tagged. You can't keep a challenged statement in until it is disproven. --Michael C. Price 22:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

My opinion:

I show my opinion with these statements:

• Orthomolecular medicine is a minority view held by under one percent of medical practitioners. The citation doesn't show any statistics for example, it is about OM only. Even if it is true, it's more than brave to write something like that in an encyclopedia. Like that (in case of any citation) it will never be neutral.

• The majority are often dismissive: "Scientific research has found no benefit from orthomolecular therapy for any disease." I think there is no problem. This is not the article that says this statement, this is the majority (an other uncitable word) and there are plenty of references.

• Sometimes proponents claim partisan politics, pharmaceutical industry influence, and competitive considerations to be significant factors; on the other hand, prominent orthomolecular proponents sell lines of orthomolecular products, orthomolecular practitioners sell expensive tests of questionable benefit such as hair analysis, It says proponents and the citation shows a Quackwatch article written by only one doctor. There is no pubmed research paper, publication... And Weasel :sometimes...

Anyway what is the reason for Criticism and relation to mainstream medicine not being neutral? Sorry for not giving specific solutions, I'm thinking. NCurse _work 07:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

OM proponents, in an effort to keep the main page from being POV-tagged, kept moving the tag to the criticism section, reflecting a misunderstanding of what the tag means. (One editor told me that, because he didn't think the page had a POV problem, he was entitled to unilaterally remove the POV-tag.) The old page did have a problem in that the "criticism" section was really a polemic against the critics, but the page as a whole is balanced now. -- Cri du canard 21:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead paragraphs

The lead paragraphs were overstuffed with too much information. Per WP:NPOV, they should be a short summary highlighting what the article is about, and noting the major controversies. I have done that. No substantive information from the previous version has been deleted. Rather, the detailed material (both pro and con) has been moved to the appropriate sections within the article. I think we're approaching something NPOV now. -- Cri du canard 13:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Fish-oil

I don't think the fish-oil studies are "clearly" orthomolecular. Again, this is a fromagalogy problem, where orthomolecular medicine tries to claim legitimate nutritional science as their own, and then leverage the unproven orthomolecular-specific claims on the backs of legitimate medicine.Cri du canard 13:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, what YOU believe about what orthomolecular people believe, is irrelevant. The most narcissisitic thing in the world is to try to define other people's beliefs for them. If you want to find out what scientologists consider scientology, ask THEM, not their critics. The same for Mormons, Roman Catholics, and whatever. Do not tell the AMA what it believes. Do not tell the AHA what it believes. To find out what orthomolecular practitioners believe, read their publications. Here's an orthomolecular archive which contains many reviews of omega-3 therapy , which is certainly consistant with the definitions of orthomolecular medicine given in the Wiki. These long chain w-3 are naturally found in the body.SBHarris 20:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

None of these studies mention "orthomolecular." I've kept the cite and moved it in with the niacin materials. The commentary that Cassileth is "wrong" was uncited original research, and was not retained. -- Cri du canard 13:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Again it's irrelevant whether or not the studies supporting an orthomolecular POV call themselves orthomolecular or not. Mass fortification of flour with folate to prevent birth defect is an orthomolecular solution to a problem, even if nobody wants to say the word.

Don't be a wikilawyer regarding WP:NOR, or you won't have any article left, or any Misplaced Pages left, either. Putting two sentences with referenced statements together constitute OR, since a point of view is thereby advanced. Alas, it's also inescapable, since if you separate conflicting facts so the contradiction is not noticed, this also advances a POV and is OR. In writing where there are multiple POV, we do POV summation. In a field with multiple POVs to summarize, it's impossible to avoid NOR on a small scale, if you want to summarize larger works. Thus, we break NOR in doing original summaries (which is what encylopedia writing is all about), in order to uphold NPOV globally. You can keep Cassileth's statement, and I'll just copy it and quote him later, alongside the research showing he's wrong, and the reader can draw their own conclusions. One problem is you quote Cassileth, but you don't know what HE means when he says "orthomolecular." So he might not EVEN be wrong, but just beating a straw man.SBHarris 20:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of Othomolecular views on efficacy

The article made it sound as if practioners of orthomolecular medicine had just thought up a list of ailments and offered these to the public. Everything I have read suggests claims are based on clinical experience. Lumos3 10:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Then find a cite for that claim and add it, rather than deleting information. The original text was a verified statement from reliable sources. Your claim appears nowhere in the cited references. -- Cri du canard 12:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the text, and added the Lumos3 claim with a tag. -- Cri du canard 13:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have added references showing general practise experience of orthomolecular medicine has existed for 50 to 60 years. Lumos3 17:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal experience is nice, but it doesn't justify making claims in the medical arena. (There happens to be a phenomenon known as a "confounder" .....;-) See below: Evidence-based CAM?

Clinical experience has historically played a major part in building medical knowledge. It cannot all be dismissed as a confounder. It does not carry the same weight as a double blind controlled experiment but neither can it be dismissed out of hand. The first such experiment was only conducted in the 1950s. Before that medical science progressed by the observation and experiment by skilled practitioners. See theTimeline of the history of scientific method.Lumos3 16:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Evidence-based CAM"?

This bit of not very original thinking (extremely common among believers in sCAM) is a gem:

"Much of the criticism stemes from two reasons : (1) much of it has a factual basis but has not been thoroughly and scientifically researched, (2) Many physicians are not familiar with it."

How can one really be certain that something is a fact without the research? One can certainly experience "something" and believe in that anecdotal moment, but when it comes to medicine, treatment methods for others, and the selling of products, the bar is set much higher. Without good evidence the claims may end up amounting to quackery.

Evidence-based CAM?

All this begs the question - is there such a thing as "evidence-based CAM?"

You see, to me and other skeptics, the idea that there is such a thing as evidence-based CAM is an oxymoron.

Following are some of the thoughts and quotes that reveal and influence my thinking. I'll start with something from here at Misplaced Pages:

Alternative Definition

The terms "alternative medicine", "complementary medicine" and "CAM" are generally understood in terms of their relationship to mainstream Western medicine, as described above. Richard Dawkins, Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford, argues for a different definition of alternative medicine, based not on sphere of usage but on evidence: "alternative medicine is defined as that set of practices which cannot be tested, refuse to be tested, or consistently fail tests. If a healing technique is demonstrated to have curative properties in properly controlled double-blind trials, it ceases to be alternative. It simply...becomes medicine." He also states that "There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine that works and medicine that doesn't work."

Well-known proponents of evidence-based medicine who study CAM, such as the Cochrane Collaboration and Edzard Ernst, Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter, have retained CAM's generally-accepted definition and do not define CAM as Dawkins does. In their view, there can be "good CAM" or "bad CAM" based on evidentiary support.

This touches on what I call a "dividing line" and definitional problem as to what we should label as CAM (indeed a problematic term!), and what we should label as EBM. Strictly speaking, from the skeptic viewpoint, "evidence-based CAM" is an oxymoron.....

According to skeptics and physicians like Dawkins, Sagan, Randi, Angell, Fontanarosa, Lundberg, and Barrett, the concept of "alternative" is often being misused in a misleading form of marketing, implying something that is far from the case. Barrett puts it this way:

"Alternative has two possible meanings. Correctly employed, it refers to methods that have equal value for a particular purpose. (An example would be two antibiotics capable of killing a particular organism.) When applied to unproven methods, however, the term can be misleading because methods that are unsafe or ineffective are not reasonable alternatives to proven treatment. To emphasize this fact, we place the word "alternative" in quotation marks throughout this book whenever it is applied to methods that are not based on established scientific knowledge." - Stephen Barrett, MD

Although NCCAM funds research, I don't see it proclaiming any "alternative" method as disproven. This situation needs to stop. How many years should a nonsensical method divert funds into wasteful and pointless research, after multiple quality experiments have shown no promise, and proven that the emperor has no clothes? At what point does one proclaim that (for example) homeopathy is dead?

Some relevant quotes:

• "There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted." - Angell M, Kassirer JP, "Alternative medicine--the risks of untested and unregulated remedies." N Engl J Med 1998;339:839.

• "There is no alternative medicine. There is only scientifically proven, evidence-based medicine supported by solid data or unproven medicine, for which scientific evidence is lacking. Whether a therapeutic practice is 'Eastern' or 'Western,' is unconventional or mainstream, or involves mind-body techniques or molecular genetics is largely irrelevant except for historical purposes and cultural interest. As believers in science and evidence, we must focus on fundamental issues-namely, the patient, the target disease or condition, the proposed or practiced treatment, and the need for convincing data on safety and therapeutic efficacy." - Fontanarosa P.B., and Lundberg G.D. "Alternative medicine meets science" JAMA. 1998; 280: 1618-1619.

• "The "alternative" folks have had their way with the language. Treatments are "alternative" and "complementary" and "integrative" but the fact is that they're not a legitimate alternative if they don't do anything, they're not "complementary" if they don't add to anything but expense and they don't need to be "integrated" if they're just a waste of time and money." - David Ramey, DVM

I see it as problematic that while the established health care system is actively trying to weed out ineffective methods, the CAM system is searching through the garbage heap of discarded and disproven methods, in an attempt to revive and invent methods for which proof is not only lacking, but for which there is often adequate proof of lack of effect.

Here are a few of my articles that directly address these issues:

• Is CAM a UFO?

• A Consumer Advocate's Dilemma: Should CAM be Researched?

• Freedom of Informed Choice

From "Is CAM a UFO?":

Evidence-based methods are effective, and effective methods should be evidence-based. If a method appears to be effective, then it should be possible to prove it. If the research has not been done yet, it should be. We must remember that "Absence of proof is not the same as the absence of fact; it simply demonstrates the lack of adequate research. - Robert Sydenham. "Lack of evidence in the literature is not evidence of lack of effectiveness."

This is often misunderstood, since it contains two poorly understood elements. The first is that effectiveness exists, in and of itself, regardless of proof, or rather, "before" proof is provided by proper research. The second is that lack of proof doesn't justify the marketing of methods based solely on claims of effectiveness, which are hoped to be proven in the future.

It is one thing to say: "I believe it's effective, but have no proof as yet." It's quite another to say: "I believe it's effective, and my experience with it is enough proof for me and my customers."

I don't know if you are familiar with this book (I am not), but the book review title deserves a comment:

> Is Evidence-Based Medicine Evidence Based?

> http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/24/2/562

It's a straw man argument, because it's asking the wrong question. I assume it means something like this:

"Is Modern Medicine Evidence Based?"

Well, I'd say it's on its way....;-) The EBM "movement" or paradigm is an attempt to take what the medical system has developed through experimentation, what it has gained from experience, and what it has inherited from its pretty much quackery-filled past, and sort through it to weed out the junk. The idea is quality control, and the job is far from finished. It's a battle fought on several fronts, and not always very well:

1. Weeding out the junk that is in what we have inherited;
2. Constantly reevaluating earlier findings in light of newer findings;
3. Seeking to measure the difference between real effects and the placebo illusion;
4. Attempting to ensure that laboratory results are relevant to clinical practice;
5. Preventing junk from sneaking in the back door. (NCCAM is doing a great job - to sneak it in.)
6. other points?

Shouldn't scientists and Misplaced Pages editors attempt to alert the public to the problem regarding the misuse of the term "alternative" medicine, and shouldn't they openly adopt Dawkins' (and other skeptics') interpretation regarding the decisive difference between alt med and EBM - evidence of effect? If it's proven to be effective, then it ceases to be alternative medicine, and becomes EBM. Thus, based on the evidence, it is possible for a method to change categories in either direction, based on increased knowledge of its effectiveness or lack thereof.

Just a few thoughts to ponder....IMHO. -- Fyslee 17:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree in principle, but it's a semantic and political battle that has already been lost. "Alternative" is a misnomer, but it's also the standard term. The place for that discussion is in the alternative medicine article to the extent the cited sources meet WP:RS. -- Cri du canard 21:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Ames

The Bruce Ames section appears to be a secondary, instead of tertiary source of information. Addhoc 18:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what's meant by "secondary" and "tertiary" in this comment. The section needs a lot of work. I agree that the Ames paper is a questionable source of "support" for OM, but we need to find better sources than Misplaced Pages articles, per WP:RS. Just as we should not include the original-research opinion "Cassileth is wrong," we should not include the original-research opinion "Ames does not support OM" unless we find an explicit rejection. Of course, we should not include the opinion "Ames supports OM" unless we find a cite of Ames supporting OM, and the AmJClinNutr cite doesn't do that, as you correctly point out. And it doesn't merit its own section; perhaps move it into the "relation" section. -- Cri du canard 21:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies, I meant in terms of WP:RS:

• "A primary source is a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs; in other words, a source very close to the situation you are writing about. The term most often refers to a document produced by a participant in an event or an observer of that event."
• "A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources. Secondary sources produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses are carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative."
• "A tertiary source usually summarizes secondary sources. Encyclopedias, for instance, are tertiary sources."

Addhoc 22:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's an excellent article on Ames's views on vitamins. He thinks they're important, is worried RDA levels are too low, and sells his own supplement, but doesn't endorse megadosing. The word "orthomolecular" also doesn't appear on the site advertising Ames's supplement.

You can find lots of articles on Ames' views. He thinks that 1 in 3 mutations affects nutrient handling, and notes that 20% of people have defects in handling folate and B2. So we're not talking about a handful of kids with "Uncomable Hair Syndrome" (which actually exists). Ames thinks that the abundance of 50 and 100 mg B vitamins in health food stores might not be coincidence, and that they may be there because many people feel a difference with them. . His 50 genetically modifiable diseases aren't things you never heard of like the hair thing, but common mutations which affect risk of heart disease and cancer. As for Ames' supplement, it's far more ALC and alpha-lipoate than you'll ever get in YOUR diet, (and it's a human version of a rodent treatment to boot) so why is "megadose" inappropriate? Truthfully, because "megadose" is a loaded word, sort of like "overdose" or "promiscuity". It means somebody's doing more than YOU are, and you're gunna look down on them. Ames is on the board of a company that does a lot of vitamin tests in blood, and it takes large doses to normalize levels in some clients of these labs. Does that do them any good? Who knows? Good topic for future research. But if you found out you had folate levels a quarter of the population average, and it took 1600 mcg to keep you up to average, would you take that much? SBHarris 23:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not surprising that OM'ers want to adopt Ames as one of their own, but the difference is that he's performing hypothesis-testing, while substantial portions of the OM crowd (including some of its leading lights) reject the idea of medicine based on evidence. (That list of "notable OM doctors" is a sad catalog of anti-vaccination cranks and snake-oil salesmen.)-- Cri du canard 22:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hypothesis testing while selling commercial products. Hmmm. Sounds a lot like the rest of modern medicine. SBHarris 23:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't split talk page comments without refactoring signatures. -- Cri du canard 23:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

For better or worse, Ames has no personal financial interest in the company and receives no compensation. -- Cri du canard 14:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Within Misplaced Pages, the question is how best to convey all this about Ames in a concise NPOV way. There's already a section of mainstream medicine studies that OM claims supports it. Perhaps the place for this is a bullet-point mentioning Ames and the AmJClinNutr study, i.e.,

• Bruce Ames's studies on the effects of vitamins on genetic diseases and biochemical aging processes, and his advocacy of one-a-day multivitamins in cancer prevention.

I would suggest placing that bullet-point in the "Relation to mainstream medicine" bullet-point list and then deleting the Ames subsection under "Criticism." Does anyone object to this proposed solution? -- Cri du canard 22:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That would definately be an improvement. Addhoc 22:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the Bruce Ames section. His research is now sourced from the mainstream journals. Corrected many misleading or incorrect statements. --Michael C. Price 22:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This is far too much detail for a Misplaced Pages article, and isn't useful to a Misplaced Pages reader. We can add the references to the bullet point, but even the Bruce Ames article doesn't go into that much detail about his research. -- Cri du canard 22:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny isn't it, that as soon as a detailed expansion of an issue shows support for OM that Cri du canard suddenly decides it is no longer needed. This level of detail is required to prevent the twisting and distortion of facts that Cri du canards engages in. The level of detail at Bruce Ames is irrelevant. If Cri du canard and others stopped twisting and poisoning the well then perhaps less detail would be appropriate but until then it will have to stay. --Michael C. Price 23:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Michael, stop with the personal attacks and conspiracy theories. I criticized this section before you added cites when it was first written by skeptic Fyslee and had no pro-OM material in it. -- Cri du canard 23:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

In addition, the main text appears to mischaracterize some of the papers, in particular the AmJClNutr study. And the entire abstract doesn't belong in the article, not even in the notes, when the word "orthomolecular" appears nowhere in the article. -- Cri du canard 22:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Explain the mischaracterisation. --Michael C. Price 23:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This edit incorrectly stated that "every human suffers from" "50 defective co-enzyme binding affinities", something the paper does not claim. -- Cri du canard 23:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't you mention this this edit which subsequently corrected the issue? Since your revision was in error I shall revert it. --Michael C. Price 23:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Because (1) that edit is also wrong, and (2) I made my comment (as part of a longer discussion) before you made the change at 22:54, and just didn't save the entire lengthy discussion until 22:56. If you revert, you will be in violation of 3RR. -- Cri du canard 23:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

(1) How was it wrong? (2) If wrong correct it, don't delete. --Michael C. Price 00:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

How's this?

• Bruce Ames's studies on the effects of vitamins on genetic diseases and biochemical aging processes, and his advocacy of one-a-day multivitamins in cancer prevention.

-- Cri du canard 22:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

A significant improvement. Original research based on Google searches have no place in an encyclopedia. Addhoc 23:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Not good enough. We need to explain the relevance of the studies, how they relate to Paulings orginal work, why healthy humans are impacted, etc etc. All this has been lost. How very convenient. --Michael C. Price 23:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be too much detail for a Misplaced Pages article even if these studies explicitly endorsed orthomolecular medicine. Given that the term does not even appear in the papers, and it's disputed whether Ames is really doing orthomolecular work, it's certainly far too much detail in the orthomolecular medicine article. In any event, it's far better under NPOV to simply state the facts rather than characterize them. And google searches do not belong in a Misplaced Pages article. -- Cri du canard 23:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

(Preserving old version of now-deleted Bruce Ames section in case further discussion needed)

Here it is: -- Cri du canard 23:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Old version

Nutrition researcher Bruce Ames is often associated with orthomolecular research although he does not use the term itself. However his research deals with nutrition and specific genetic disease conditions (as indeed did Pauling's article which defined the term "orthomolecular""). Ames' research includes investigating the effects of large doses of, for example, the nutrients alpha-lipoic acid (a coenzyme precursor) and the carnitine (an amino acid complex) on restoring metabolic health, and in particular mitochondrial function, in animal models Ames has also investigated the role of high dose B-vitamin therapy in alleviating in approximately 50 defective co-enzyme binding affinities, of which one, at least, every human suffers from (example of one genetic disease condition: Over 40% of the population is hetro- or homo-zygous with the thermolabile variant of 5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase and as a result requires extra riboflavin ).

"About 50 human genetic dis-eases due to defective enzymes can be remedied or ameliorated by the administration of high doses of the vitamin component of the corresponding coenzyme, which at least partially restores enzymatic activity."

A search of his website fails to show a single use of the term "orthomolecular." yet he has, based on his research, developed a supplement for human use.

RFC Discussion on Bruce Ames text

Price simply readded the text without discussion. I continue to believe that "Over 40% of the population is hetro- or homo-zygous with the thermolabile variant of 5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase" has no place in a Misplaced Pages article just as a matter of style. I further believe that it has no place in an "orthomolecular medicine" article (much less "development of OM" section) when the cited study makes no reference to orthomolecular medicine. What are other editors' views? -- Cri du canard 18:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Your stylistic point has no basis in WP policy. As for its relevance, the statement is needed to prevent the reinsertion of the claim that OM is of no benefit to "normal" people. The statement demonstrates that -- given the number of different genetic conditions we are all subject to -- that there is probably not a single person alive who doesn't suffer from some sort of coenzyme binding deficiency that would not benefit from micronutrient supplementation. --Michael C. Price 23:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No one ever inserted that claim, so your "need" for the statement doesn't exist. Moreover, since the article makes no mention of orthomolecular medicine, and the author himself does not claim to support orthomolecular medicine, such detail is inappropriate for an article about orthomolecular medicine. -- Cri du canard 00:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ames evidently thinks such details are important, and recommends daily multivitamins for all on the basis of such details. --Michael C. Price 00:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I also hadn't previously noticed the POV violation in Price's change of the text from the NPOV (if poorly phrased and cited) "Nutrition researcher Bruce Ames is often associated with orthomolecular research" to the POV-pushing "An example of a modern researcher is Bruce Ames." The latter statement violates NPOV, because it's disputed whether Ames is really within orthomolecular medicine (cf. "Principles of Orthomolecular Medicine"), or just doing mainstream nutrition work. -- Cri du canard 00:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Vitamin E

I added some additional information reflecting the consensus, at least in the medical community, about the lack of benefit of vitamin E supplementation for preventing coronary heart disease. Andrew73 04:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. It's a lot more time-consuming to debunk than to parrot pro-OM webpages already compiled by supplement-pushers. -- Cri du canard 12:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Profound errors and misrepresentations

1. "Orthomolecular medicine and optimum nutrition is the theory that mental diseases or abnormalities result from various chemical imbalances or deficiencies and can be cured by restoring proper levels of chemical substances, such as vitamins and minerals, in the body.Orthomolecular medicine and optimum nutrition is the theory that mental diseases or abnormalities result from various chemical imbalances or deficiencies and can be cured by restoring proper levels of chemical substances, such as vitamins and minerals, in the body." This confuses and attacks orthomolecular psychiatry as the entire subject of orthomolecular medicine. Psychiatry is an especially controversial subject in its own right, going through more recent era of Freud, electroshock & lobotomies. It is now missing basic supplement categories (vitamins, minerals,...) in the introduction. A good example of erroneous, radical skeptism hijacking the first sentence, poisoning the well.--TheNautilus 11:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)