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Revision as of 04:01, 21 August 2006 by Moby Dick~enwiki (talk | contribs) (keep)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)Kurdish celebration of Newroz
We already have a Norouz article explaining the topic. I do not see the reason we need a seperate article for the kurds since its the same holiday for them just like the other god knows how many countries listed on Norouz. Article is more of a link-o-rama with random links that dont provide additional info. Links are often vaiguely relate to the topic such as news reports. Some of them only have a sigle referance to the holiday while not providing any info about the holdiay itself. --Cat out 00:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Merge, salvage what you can, dump the rest. --Cat out 00:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - the creation of this page, and the summary style of the main Norouz page was done after much discussion which led to consensus. See Talk:Norouz#Peace_settlement and Talk:Newroz -- Jeff3000 00:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry wikipedia is not a warzone and everyone is expected to be at peace. Same holiday, single article. We dont have seperate Christmas article for every eurpoean country or ethnicity as it is celebrated mostly in an identical manner. I recognise one of the participants of that discussion who was blocked for a year: Diyako. --Cat out 01:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Are you positive we don have these articles: Christmas customs in the Philippines, Christmas customs in Poland and Christmas customs in Romania? Bertilvidet 09:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- No I am not. None of those have anything to do with politics though. And yes we dont have seperate Christmas article for every eurpoean country or ethnicity as it is celebrated mostly in an identical manner. --Cat out 10:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Aha, if Christmas celebration in some place where Christians constitute a minority gets political implentation it would be a reason for deleting the article on Misplaced Pages. I see. Bertilvidet 10:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Ah! My Conspiracy!
- Seriously though, dont change the subject. We aren't discussing those articles. If your objective is writing about politics involving kurds do it in its own article, not like this. Content forking is not allowed.
- --Cat out 10:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Aha, if Christmas celebration in some place where Christians constitute a minority gets political implentation it would be a reason for deleting the article on Misplaced Pages. I see. Bertilvidet 10:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- No I am not. None of those have anything to do with politics though. And yes we dont have seperate Christmas article for every eurpoean country or ethnicity as it is celebrated mostly in an identical manner. --Cat out 10:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Putting all that information in the Norouz article would make it too long and detailed. So we are invoking the Misplaced Pages:Summary style, and moving the information to a daughter article. It is done for a lot of general pages in Misplaced Pages. The Kurdish celebration stuff is verifiable, but too detailed, thus it goes in a daughter article. Plus bringing in the comment about Diyako is an Ad hominem and is besides the point. -- Jeff3000 01:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Norouz + Kurdish celebration of Newroz dont get all that large after a merger. They both present similar info. Kurdish one has some info on contravercies and etc as an extra. It doesnt get all that large. We have much larger articles.
- I am merely pointing the arbitration hearing. Diyako is banned for a year. His comments should be viewed in the light of that arbcom hearing.
- --Cat out 01:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe not that large, but too much emphasis on one type of celebration (which is quite different than the others) in the main page (i.e. not in the proportion to the prominence of each). The current set-up allows the proportion of discussion of the different celebrations on the main page to be relatively well in proportion, but the detail that exists and is verifibale is not just eliminated. -- Jeff3000 01:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Quite different? How? Kurdish article is mostly about the political stuff full of weasle words and plently of irrelevant external links. Ah! The poem can go to wikisource or wikihell (if copyvio). --Cat out 01:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes indeed, because of the tensions Kurdish Newroz celebrations have often turned quite political (in demanding cultural rights) - which have simply made the celebrations more notable and thus relevant to deal with in an encyclopedia. Bertilvidet 07:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Is that a fact? Are you suggesting that every kurd is required to have a political motive in order to celebrate Newroz/Nourz (whatever)? Is it a requirement? Simplifying a holiday into a political raley is over generalization, factualy inacurate, and a POV fork attempt. --Cat out 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- It is a fact that the celebrations at several occasions has been politicized, is an important expression of Kurdish culture and thus has gained quite a lot of attention. Thus it would be strange not to have an article explaining the bacground and implications of the celebration on Misplaced Pages. Bertilvidet 08:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Riots are an expression of Kurdish culture? Sure it gets a lot of attention, but the average kurd I met was certainly not breaking windows, burning cars, and throwing pavement peices at local law enforcment personel. Some of those political self expression was quite violent. Newroz wasnt the only time such events have occured. If the riots/political ralleys are a part of kurdish culture feel free to write about that (with proper citation). But that has nothing to do with the spring holiday. --Cat out 08:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see any relevance of discussing riots in relation with Newroz. It is a yearly celebration, that gathers millions of participants in Turkey alone. So riots or not, I cannot see how the celebration can be deemed not notable enough for Misplaced Pages (even though some celebrations sadly enough have resulted in clases with the security forces). Bertilvidet 09:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Just like I do not see why article is relevant for political purposes. Its celebrated in millions in Iran as well as many other places just like christmas (according to the wikipedia article). Many other social gatherings in Turkey such as may holiday (workers holiday) end up with simmilar political issues as some kurdish politicians and political organisations have had frequently abused such gatherings. I do not think the political stuff, riots and clashes with the security forces are in no way relevant to the spring holiday. If you are looking for an article about Kurdish civil rights movement, this isn't the right title. --Cat out 10:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, I am not looking for identity or civil rights. I am specifally looking for Kurdish celebration of Newroz, in order to understand the background and implications of this even, which gets huge amounts of attention (at least in Turkey) every year. You are free to like or to dislike the celebrations, but they are present, and there is no reason not to let people get the possibility to gather information about it on Wiki. Bertilvidet 10:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I am not following you. Then why is there a picture of Abdlullah Ocalan in this article (according to the caption at least). Thats like cultural celebrations in Washington DC with binladen flags and etc. Not exactly your average cultural spring holiday. All that stuff is irrelevant to the holiday. Kurdish tradition does not include political ralleying and violence, does it? --Cat out 10:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- You are so right, not exactly an average cultural spring holiday. The article should adress these issues. Bertilvidet 10:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Which makes it a POV fork. These issues have nothing to do with the holdiay as you agree. --Cat out 10:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- You are so right, not exactly an average cultural spring holiday. The article should adress these issues. Bertilvidet 10:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I am not following you. Then why is there a picture of Abdlullah Ocalan in this article (according to the caption at least). Thats like cultural celebrations in Washington DC with binladen flags and etc. Not exactly your average cultural spring holiday. All that stuff is irrelevant to the holiday. Kurdish tradition does not include political ralleying and violence, does it? --Cat out 10:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, I am not looking for identity or civil rights. I am specifally looking for Kurdish celebration of Newroz, in order to understand the background and implications of this even, which gets huge amounts of attention (at least in Turkey) every year. You are free to like or to dislike the celebrations, but they are present, and there is no reason not to let people get the possibility to gather information about it on Wiki. Bertilvidet 10:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Just like I do not see why article is relevant for political purposes. Its celebrated in millions in Iran as well as many other places just like christmas (according to the wikipedia article). Many other social gatherings in Turkey such as may holiday (workers holiday) end up with simmilar political issues as some kurdish politicians and political organisations have had frequently abused such gatherings. I do not think the political stuff, riots and clashes with the security forces are in no way relevant to the spring holiday. If you are looking for an article about Kurdish civil rights movement, this isn't the right title. --Cat out 10:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see any relevance of discussing riots in relation with Newroz. It is a yearly celebration, that gathers millions of participants in Turkey alone. So riots or not, I cannot see how the celebration can be deemed not notable enough for Misplaced Pages (even though some celebrations sadly enough have resulted in clases with the security forces). Bertilvidet 09:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Riots are an expression of Kurdish culture? Sure it gets a lot of attention, but the average kurd I met was certainly not breaking windows, burning cars, and throwing pavement peices at local law enforcment personel. Some of those political self expression was quite violent. Newroz wasnt the only time such events have occured. If the riots/political ralleys are a part of kurdish culture feel free to write about that (with proper citation). But that has nothing to do with the spring holiday. --Cat out 08:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- It is a fact that the celebrations at several occasions has been politicized, is an important expression of Kurdish culture and thus has gained quite a lot of attention. Thus it would be strange not to have an article explaining the bacground and implications of the celebration on Misplaced Pages. Bertilvidet 08:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Is that a fact? Are you suggesting that every kurd is required to have a political motive in order to celebrate Newroz/Nourz (whatever)? Is it a requirement? Simplifying a holiday into a political raley is over generalization, factualy inacurate, and a POV fork attempt. --Cat out 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes indeed, because of the tensions Kurdish Newroz celebrations have often turned quite political (in demanding cultural rights) - which have simply made the celebrations more notable and thus relevant to deal with in an encyclopedia. Bertilvidet 07:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Quite different? How? Kurdish article is mostly about the political stuff full of weasle words and plently of irrelevant external links. Ah! The poem can go to wikisource or wikihell (if copyvio). --Cat out 01:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe not that large, but too much emphasis on one type of celebration (which is quite different than the others) in the main page (i.e. not in the proportion to the prominence of each). The current set-up allows the proportion of discussion of the different celebrations on the main page to be relatively well in proportion, but the detail that exists and is verifibale is not just eliminated. -- Jeff3000 01:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Are you positive we don have these articles: Christmas customs in the Philippines, Christmas customs in Poland and Christmas customs in Romania? Bertilvidet 09:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry wikipedia is not a warzone and everyone is expected to be at peace. Same holiday, single article. We dont have seperate Christmas article for every eurpoean country or ethnicity as it is celebrated mostly in an identical manner. I recognise one of the participants of that discussion who was blocked for a year: Diyako. --Cat out 01:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep per Jeff. Also it is undeniable that Newroz celebrations play an important role for the Kurdish self identity. Bertilvidet 06:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, the article had many irrelevant links. I have just cleanep up in them. Bertilvidet 06:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Remove the poem (how does that explain the celebration?) and you end up with text small enough to fit the main article.
- A holiday by definition is a part of "self identity" I suppose, that would explain why Norouz is notable, but does not explain this article. You might want to start a Kurdish self identity (whatever that is) for that purpose. You just made it sound like content forking...
- --Cat out 07:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep per Jeff. Based on skimming both articles, the Kurdish version of the holiday seems significant enough to warrant a separate article. The article is referenced, albeit mostly with external links that probably ought to be turned into endnotes. Were the Kurdish section merged, it would either dominate the head article, or information would be lost. Per WP:BIAS, if we have separate articles on ethnic Winter Solstice observations, we can have separate articles on ethnic Vernal Equinox observations also. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - per Jeff3000 and Smerdis of Tlön above. Also per Bertilvidet. There are many distinct ethnic populations in this area of the world with their own equally valid ethnic histories, customs, etc. Mattisse(talk) 14:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes and they have a common holiday which strangely enough has two articles about it. --Cat out 16:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - per Jeff3000. --Mais oui! 23:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Merge - Same reason for celebrating it no need to make it a new article of the way Kurds or Persians celebrate it this could all be in one article. Ozgur Gerilla 18:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep Why does everyone feel so threatened by the Kurds? --Xrblsnggt 18:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thats not a deletion criteria. And this article makes kurds look evil implying as if kurds riot to celebrate the spring holiday... Frankly I was expecting to be flaged as 'pro-kurdish' for this nom, not the conrary. --Cat out 19:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - per Jeff3000.--DieWeibeRose 01:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep per Bertilvidet and others; legit article.--Moby 04:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)