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Archives phasis added]. If that is the case you will need to provide citations that this was the case, and the sentence that states that 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure "' will need to be removed as it does not cite an authoritative source. 'Murlis' on an ex-BK website do not constitute reliable sources when the topic at hand is the BK organisation itself. If it cannot be proved either way, it should be omitted from the article. Anything else would be siding with the version of the article before my edit simply because it was the ----

November 2005 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006

Some inaccuracies in the article

Some of the information which has remained here is inaccurate. Hopefully, I can make a more accurate edit, which is what wikipedia is all about.

• 1. 'Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as "impure"'

This is not true. If it is the case that non-BK money is considered 'impure', why would any be accepted? Yet here the article states non-BK donations are generally not accepted. This is a contradiction within the sentence. Also, even if this were to be true, how is it to be enacted? Donation boxes in centres are simply boxes with a slit in them like a post/mail box. How would the BKs know what were 'impure' and 'pure' donations? Rather, in demonstratable fact, anyone can walk into a BK centre and make a donation.

• 2. Also, various parts of the article do not cite their sources, e.g. on how many centres worldwide there are and how many students, or on the claim that the BKs have only once in 70 years donated outside of its own operations etc.
• 3. Also(!), there is biased and unnecessary wording throughout the article such as 'Under the inspiration of their "God" businessman Lekraj Kriplani...' Using the word businessman in this context is evident bias and not an encyclopaediac entry...! Furthermore there is no BK that will claim that Brahma Baba is 'God'. Rather, he achieved perfection. The only distinguishing feature between God and every other soul is that God does not reincarnate or take rebirth. This particular section of the article is written very poorly, often not even in complete sentences. Hopefully by a few edits I can clarify the article.
• 4. Reading through this article more I've found some misleading parts in the article. Under the section 'The founder Brahma Baba', its said that "Also that Lekhraj Kirpalani's soul will reincarnate as Hindu god Krishna in his next birth". This gives the misleading impression that Brahma Baba's soul will reincarnate into the body of what is traditionally seen as that of krishna - a purple skinned deity. Considering that this is untrue to BK teachings, and this section attempts to outline BK teachings, it should not be included.
• 5. There is inconsistency in the name used when talking about Brahma Baba throughout the article. Sometimes it is Brahma Baba, other times it is Lekraj Kriplani.

To the user 'TalkAbout': Why did you revert the edit? What changes do you disagree with? 26th August 2006. - 89.240.131.11 19:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

84.13.147.13 / 89.240.131.11,

Please indicate if you are part of the Technology Team under BKSimonb or if you are followers. Presently awaiting a response from BKSimonb a he is representing the Brahma Kumaris here. If you are not I will address the points above. Please lable each point for clarity in the process. Please place 4 ~ after each entry if you want a response in due time.

- TalkAbout 19:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm only one person; my IP address appears to change somewhat each time I connect to the internet. But I'll sign every 'post' with 89.240.131.11 19:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC) from now on so hopefully there won't be any confusion. I don't know BKSimonb and I'm not in any Technology Team. I'm not a 'follower' per se. I go to class/centre once a week (not morning class though). I would call myself a BK, although I follow the different directions to different degrees. Would you mind if I ask similar questions about yourself? What contact have you had with the BKs etc etc.?

- 89.240.131.11 19:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear 89.240.131.11,

Out of respect to BKSimonb (who has requested that no personal information of individuals be posted...i.e. him and others I presume) of the Official technology team. I will sooth your curiosity being that you are a junior (just starting out). My contact (informal contact is close to two decades) is on the Freedom of Information point of view. If once, all the relevant information is presented and you decide to pursue this, than my full blessings to you on your spiritual quest. I have to research all the material and on occasion receive a reprimand (when I do a fast check) from ExBKs with a long history with the BKs. So, I thank you for the reply and will reply as stated above. So, rest assured that the BK Official Team is doing their job. Please review the BK Official links provided on the article for any related BK information you may find of interest to you and for citation in the process.

- TalkAbout 20:28, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that that last post of yours didn't make much sense to me. What contact (in person, or a person?)have you had with the BKs etc.? And by 'junior' I take it you mean to wikipedia, which is true. But hopefully I can make some valuable contributions to this article. Other than that I have the same questions posted before; Why did you revert the edit? What changes do you disagree with?

- 89.240.131.11 20:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

89.240.131.11,

• First point: 1. Donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as "impure". This is correct as per the teachings, if they have changed this please cite (give a link) and providing references. This goes right along the lines of not eating food prepared by non-BKs because it too is impure. Have you not had this basic teaching yet? Last time I was at a BK event, all the food was prepared by BKs only. Do you still eat your mother’s cooking?

89.240.131.11 wrote:“also, even if this were to be true, how is it to be enacted?” Please spend some more time at the centre investigating these questions or join an ExBK chat forum or the “Official BK Chat froum”. Come prepared with citations to discuss the points. Until then please don’t vandalise the page.

- TalkAbout 22:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Myself, yourself and anyone else can walk into a centre and put money into the donation box. This can be easily demonstrated, in practice or simply by going into a centre and asking this very question: 'Are donations from non-BKs welcome?'. Here is a link . Right at the bottom it says voluntary contributions are welcome. This is not exclusive to the Global Retreat Centre.

I have been a BK for just over 11 years. I have been to many centres, in the UK and abroad. I don't see how it would be possible, even if it were to be the policy, to enact this division of donations from BKs and non-BKs, when all there is is a simply donation box.

The food issue is an important one, but that is going off on a tangent from the original points. Hopefully in time this can be addressed adequately, but if we do that now the conversation will become too chaotic.

Without wanting to sound redundant by asking the question a third time, can you state what has been your contact with the BKs? Whilst no-one needs to qualify themselves to be able to make an edit, it would be only appropriate for you to answer the same question that you put towards me. As said, your response didn't make much sense to me, so can you please clarify. Also, the question still stands: what do you disagree with about my edit?

- 89.241.54.33 15:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

89.241.54.33,

Are you Jesselp? I noticed he cleared out his discussion page...deleting all discussions.

• 1. 'Are donations from non-BKs welcome? ‘voluntary contributions are welcome' " This is not exclusive to the Global Retreat Centre.” End Quote. If this is not exclusive to the Global Retreat Centres than PLEASE provide a link to the Official policy on the matter. As to the Global Retreat Centres they appear to be catering to a more PR VIP Retreat...effort. Therefore, the above statement "voluntary contributions are welcome" could be a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy at the Retreat Centres as you well know orthodox tenets are not provided to those just starting out or visiting. Just as impure food would influence one, so too would impure (non-BKs/shudras) money influence one. Basic teaching let us be honest here. I have checked and double-checked this. Therefore, unless you provide a Press Release to state otherwise, I would say all is still the same.

As to what my contact with the BKs is or was...? I don't think that has any relevance here except to say that I do the research and therefore I am not just pulling the information out of my hat. I have respect for individuals such as BKSimonb, and if you noticed, I never once questioned if he had authorisation. Think about that. As you know the ones (most) fully surrendered are by their nature not hostile and so thereby, I offer full respect to them. Perhaps you may want to engage others here as I only did the revert because I came upon it first, the others would have too. Please consider discussing this in the Forum so you can discuss this further there.

- TalkAbout 17:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No I am not Jesselp. I have not made any edits here before now.

It says here, , that the The University and its centres are supported financially by the voluntary contributions of its teachers and students who live and work in the local community. Whilst it says nothing about outside contributions that I can find, it is something that can be easily demonstrated how non-BKs can make donations. If it were the case that non-BKs' donations shouldn't be accepted because they are 'impure', why is it that Oxford GRC does this? Why is it that other centres do this?

Rather, it is the process and not the person that is important here. Someone may be 'impure', to use that term, but that does not mean that their donation is an impure act. Intention is what matters. Even then, there would be no practical way to distinguish between donations that were made by BKs and non-BKs, when all there is is an anonymous donation box.

I'm sorry this is not the press release that would satisfy you, but I believe it is clear enough that outsider donations are accepted. If it is not enough for you to agree with an edit that says outsider donations are accepted, hopefully it is enough for the sentence that says 'donations are generally not accepted from non-B.K.s as their money is considered as " impure"', to be removed. Also, was my edit reverted simply because it was an edit? I am to assume good faith, but that is what your last post implies. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, so can you please clarify exactly why my edit was reverted?

Also, do you not agree on points 2,3 and 4?

- 89.240.177.41 18:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome 89.241.54.33, please have a look at the message left on your user page, and learn a little bit more about the Wiki and how it works. Although I am not responsible for all the content, nor all the mistakes, I have been one of the main contributor to this topic. I came into Gyan over 20 years ago and am a Wiki Sith. Please excuse me for formating your discussion thread so that it was easy for myself and others to follow. If you have a dynamic IP address, it is better that you register a User name.

From a general point of view, I do not think that you can call yourself a BK if you do not follow the Maryadas. At the very best, you might be a Brahmin soul but a very lowly one, perhaps worth of a few births in the Silver Age, perhaps not even that. How do we know if you are a Deity soul with full realisation of the Knowledge at all or just a Bhagat soul? You are probably under the influence of Brahma and Dadi Bhagats and also have a similar problem to BK Simon in that you came into Gyan after the period of the great re-write and transition to PR based service. You also see only one face of the BKWSU, the British Zone. What passes for BK Raja Yoga in the UK and what passes for BK Raja Yoga in the villages of India is entirely different. Which is the accurate path for us to document here? I would argue India, through its majority, takes precedence.

Brahmin life aside, the Wiki has its own requirements of easily verifiable facts. If you wish to revise the topic, you must be able to supply verifiable sources to counter the statements made. In the case of any relating the BKWSU, this would mean primarily original Murli points. Unfortunately, on one hand the BKWSU is engaged in both a re-writing of its history and the indeed the Murlis, so it is increasingly difficult to validate its claims; on the other, it keeps "God's Word" and video broadcasts of God speaking locked behind password protected webpages and PGP encryption, so how is a third party supposed to validate its claims. One must also be clear in one's mind what are facts and what is PR whitewash.Largely, on the basis of the secrecy and documented re-writing, we have to accept that the cult's own webpages are PR. If there is any doubt, please take Shrimat from a Senior Sister or write to Madhuban. Where there have been changes to Shrimat, then a signed and dated letter from a Senior Sister documenting the changes and conditions for their change would be acceptable. You will find that what is documented here was and is widely accurate.

OK. Let's address your issues briefly.

• 1. Donations from non-BKs.

Global Retreat Centre is unique in that it is a BK centre but also used for private business and for general seminars. I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now. The Senior sisters will qualify this for you. Money from Shudra, i.e. non-Brahmin souls was not used for service as it was impure like they are. If Shrimat has changed, I'll like to see it in writing. I used to be a Raja Yoga teacher. One of the problems here is the BKWSU is changing Raja Yoga to the extent that it is hardly Raja Yoga any more.

• 2. How many centres ... how many students - good point. Please make the effort to find accurate estimates from the organisation. Any figures I have quoted have been taken from BKWSU website BUT there are widespread discrepancies between varying national website. In quantifying the number of students, as the BKWSU is not a real university with fees and enrolement, we hit another problem of what constitutes "a student" - Ultimately BKWSU claims have to taken with a pinch of salt as more PR. Dadi Janki predicts there will be 900,000 by this year.

• 2 a. The BKs have only once in 70 years donated outside of its own operations ... - fair point. Actually, we need better documentation that the BKWSU has ever donated money outside of its own operations at all and how much. This point was added in response to claims made - but not supported - that the BKWSU was involved in relief after the recent Asian Tsunami. I, for one, would like to know the details of what role and what funds they actually put to this end. Most spectators pressume this involvement was largely for the PR benefit, or at least to avoid the negative PR benefit if they were seen not to. But, you are right, we neeed facts and figures or else the quotation should be removed. It is easier to look at the UK accounts which are easily accessible via the internet.

These accounts state the BKWSU have £ 15 Million in the bank but no note ever of external funding depsite the charity being registered "to alleviate poverty". Perhaps we should amend this point to state that the British BKWSU has never donated money or alleviate any poverty except for its own ... unless figure can be shown to contradict this.

But I can state without any fear of contradiction that for a large part of the organisation, at least the first 50 or 60 years, Baba's Shrimat was that BKs did not do social work or ordinary charity work and certainly did not give money to impure Shudras, arguably for the fear of encouraging their vices and incurring more karma. All charitable funds were given to Baba and all service was promting the BKWSU. I can without any fear of contradiction state that this was taught by both Senior BKs such as Jayanti Kirpalani and local sisters-in-charge. If given access to original Murlis, I am confident that I can pull quotes out for you. Please check with your sister-in-charge.

• 3. A minor point here is accurate, young Jedi, and it has been corrected. There was missing punctuation and the defining comma has been added between " under the inspiration of their god" - comma - "businessman Lehkraj Kripalani". Businessman is accurate and in no way derrogatory. It is important to clarify that Lehkraj Kripalani was a businessman and not a priest or authentic caste Brahmin. Why would you pressume reporting someone was in trade is biased?

You are, of course, correct to state Lekhraj was not God. The BKWSU teach that he alone becomes equal to God.

n.b. the spelling of Dada Lehkraj's name is not consistent through the article either and needs corrected.

• 4 gives the misleading impression that Brahma Baba's soul will reincarnate into the body of what is traditionally seen as that of krishna ... . Firstly, ShivBaba refers to Krishna as god Krishna, e.g. Sakar_Murli 2003/03/25 Revised " Baba says: Achcha, even if you think that it is God Krishna that speaks, he too is number-one. You should accept what he says." . Secondly, the BKWSU DEFINITELY teach that Lekhraj will become Krishna and that Krishna will become Narayan in approximately 30 years time. In the above quotation, we see reference to both Krishna, Lekhraj's ascendancy to Number One human soul as "God Krishna". I am afraid that Shiva Baba is a higher authority of BK Raja Yoga than you.

• 5 There is inconsistency in the name used when talking about Brahma Baba.

Personally, I would say that there is inconsistency in the name used when talking about Lekhraj Kirpalani. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Brahma Bhagats in the BKWSU how are ignoring Shrimat and Murlis creating their own religion for next the Kalpa. Brahma Baba is spiritual name for Lekhraj Kirpalani. He is being re-invented as a kind of guru figure that he would have abhorred. Indeed, Shiva Baba is the Murlis was very clear with his Shirmat that the BKs should not keep pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani and yet the BKWSU promotes it. "The Father says: You must not remember the pictures of any subtle, corporeal or Incorporeal beings ... Baba says: Stop looking at pictures. That is the path of devotion" . Sakar Murli 24/2/2004. Give me time, or go ask Dadi Janki, and I will provide better references. A good source of Murlis in the public domain is here, ]. Consequently, from a Wiki point of view, either works.

• 6 My guess your edits were revised because you did not provide citations.

• 7 "Different directions" equates to manmat. You are not a BK, I am not sure what access you have to BK source material. To make a valuable contribution, you will have to access original or reliably referencable material rather than copy and paste websites.

• 8 " process and not the person that is important here ... ". This is agyani, non-BK. The issue of "purity" within the BK world relates to body consciousness and soul consciousness. BKs are pure and "soul consciousness", Shudras are impure and "body consciousness".

195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel the need to qualify myself as a BK, in real life or on wikipedia. You may believe about me what you will, but either way that does not disqualify me from making edits. My edits should be judged for what they, and not who they were done by, as with anyone else. Out of interest, have you been in gyan for 20 years or is it that you came into gyan 20 years ago and left some years after? How the Knowledge is taught in India and abroad is obviously going to be different due to a different audience with different cultures, traditional beliefs etc. I believe you have some bias against the BKs. The wording of your posts suggests so, as does your linking to an organisation made up of ex-BKs which would be inherently biased against the BKs. Please attempt keep your bias in check. I will attempt the same with mine.

• 1. 'I can certainly say that it was Shrimat for BKs not to court or accept donations from Shudra souls. It still is largely in India where bribery and corruption are rife but I cannot state if this is still true for the West now.' [emearlier version. Also, the process is what is important here and not the person, as 'impure' souls are capable of doing 'pure' acts. After all, most BKs aren't at a karmateet stage and so are still 'impure' so to say.

• 2. a. Even if the BK estimates are seen as unreliable, then the article will have to reflect that. But at the moment that section does not cite a source.

b. 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' That is not even a proper sentence. It definitely does not belong under a section entitled 'Global Expansion'. What it lacks in form it also lacks in content. It is misleading in that it gives the impression that the BKs are hoarding money, and if it is to be said that the BKs have only ever once donated outside of its operations, then it will also need to be said exactly where this money is going instead.

• 3. 'Their god' is not neutral wording. Again, Brahma Baba is not seen as God. Yes, the word 'businessman' is accurate, but not in this context! He was a diamond jeweller but this was not continued once the BKs were established. This is misleading and derragotory, implying he became a spiritual leader because of the business prospects! Also it does not need to state that he was a 'priest or authentic caste Brahmin.' This section especially is full of fragments and needs to be edited.

• 4. Again, you would need to a cite a reliable and authoritative source. Also, any reference the BKs make to 'Krishna' is not what is typically seen as Krishna - with the latter being purple skinned, an avatar of Vishnu etc. This is inaccurate and misleading, and this sentence needs to be changed to avoid this, seeing as this sections attempts to outline the core philosophy and beliefs of the BKs.

I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. I apologize for the forthrightness but let us take this point by point using sources acceptable to the Misplaced Pages to check your neutrality, competance and integrity as a Wiki researcher. Unfortunately, the NPOV tag is all too often used by individuals or organizations that have something to hide, to discredit objective and documented reviews of their activities. A Wiki topic is not intended as PR for the BKWSU. That is what its own websites are for. Let us work together to provide citable sources.

• 2 b.Donations and the Multi-Millions. Let us look at the British BKWSU zone as you are under its influence. Hopefully, you will be able to produce accounts internationally and from the Indian headquarters to disprove the assertion made at present on the basis of the folowing.

According the English Charity's stated object, it was set up on 18 July 1975 to:

• (I) TO PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION AND OTHER RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD.
• (II) TO PROMOTE STUDIES OF AND RESEARCH IN THE FIELD OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, YOGA (VARIOUS TECHNIQUES OF CONCENTRATION AS DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES) AND TO MAKE KNOWN THE RESULTS OF SUCH STUDIES AND RESEARCH.
• (III) TO RELIEVE POVERTY, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL SICKNESS AND DISTRESS.

Source:

According to accounts held in the public domain at the Charitable Commission here; , over the last 5 years it has had a income of £1,200,000 to £2,800,000 and holds in excess of £15,000,000 in the bank taken in donations from its followers. It has spent approximately £1,000,000 on a new meditation centre and accounts state that its policy is" to invest in bank deposits".

Show me, via the accounts where or when it has ever acted to alleviate poverty from the period of 1975 onwards and how it spent money alleviating poverty. Perhaps once you have done so, we can also address as an additional point, whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES". Your statements regarding Krishna would seem to contradict this.

Please note, Chief administrator, Dadi Janki Kripalani is on her own website reported to be a "a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur", here and elsewhere through the media. It would not therefore appear that the correlation between business and spirituality is contradictory to the organization's activities.

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 14:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

195.82.106.244, had a look at the Charitable commission accounts link that you cited. Got to say it all looks entirely reasonable to me. Most of the £15 million is tied up in buildings and other essential service facilities.

So how do they address poverty? Couple of things I might mention. When I first ran into the bk about 5 years ago now, I noticed discreet little boxes with “Indian Earthquake” Appeal on them. No hard sell, no obligation, but if you inquired you were welcome to make a donation, casual visitors included.

As to how they do it in the West. Happy enough to speak from experience. You’re encouraged to develop a spiritual perspective which not only improves mental and physical health, gotta tell you bud, the day to day basics become a whole heap more affordable when you finally draw the line on the 30 fags a day and pub every night after work habit. More too, much of the infantile keeping up with the Jones’s led consumerism goes as well, so even more hard earned cash stays in your bank account.

As to your query on “whether the BKWSU was actually set up to "PROMOTE THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE HINDU RELIGION" and whether it is based on beliefs "DEFINED AND DISCUSSED IN HINDU SCRIPTURES".”

Well, I’m no real student of the core teachings, but I've had a look at one of the more balanced references on this site. Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam. " Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion? " , 1999. Might shed some light for you.

--searchin man 00:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• As far as the core teachings go, I prefer the core teachings which are easily verifiable by Misplaced Pages standards and so therfore citable. You can read some of them here. . The BKWSU generally keep them locked up with passwords and PGP encryption on the internet but some BKs are sick of that - or support the PBKs - and have released them to the public domain. A number of non-orthodox BKs are also publishing them, so we do not have to rely on hearsay or front of house PR any more. Failing these, you can go to a BK Raja Yoga Centre and request to be read them.
• Donations. Just show us the bottomline. How much, where, when.
• Raja Yoga is not based on Hindu scriptures - any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? BKs believe that the Hindu Scriptures are based on BKWSU teachings. I can provide citations.
• "Baba says is the Murlis" - which is something that you will hear the BKs say all the time - that BK don't perform Bhakti, don't go to Temples, worship statues, follow Gurus etc. What they are told is that they belong to their own BK Brahmin Religion that will then become the 900,000 strong Deity religion in the future heavenly Golden Age and then in about 2,500 years reincarnate again as Hindus worshipping themselves. The only argument for "advancing the Hindu religion" is essentially destroying it or leading its followers out of "impurity" and "ignorance". Which are the words they use. - any BK care to disagree and provide citable references ? 195.82.106.244 04:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I state "BK Brahmin" and "BK Raja Yoga" so as not to confuse between the BKs and proper caste Brahmins and traditional Raja Yoga.

BTW, 89.240.134.193, Shamsunder Krishna is blue not purple. It is symbolic.

Would it be possible to keep the entire discussion of 'Some inaccuracies within the article' on one page, and not in two archives? It would be a lot easier to see the whole discussion that way and will also provide the necessary context for what we are discussing now.

Seeing as though we agree about the article needing citable reliable and authoritative sources, should a warning not be put up in the meantime showing readers that this article does not cite its sources?

On the point of donations, 2b, your summary of the BK accounts in the UK is misleading. It does not 'hold in excess of £15m in the bank taken from donations', rather it has £15,942,517 in 'tangible fixed assets'. This is an important distinction, one which the user searchin man has also highlighted. Once depreciation is taken into account, tangible fixed assets total £12,194,930 (all figures are those at 31st December 2004). This can be found on page 12 of the annual financial report which is in that link you provided . Furthermore, 'cash in hand at bank' totalled £3,626,426 at the end of 2004. Whilst it is true that the 'Investment policy' on page 3 states the 'current policy is to invest in bank deposits', page 14 indicates exactly why the BKs are putting money into their bank account; 'the excess cash revenue is earmarked for further expansion of the BKWSU activites by aquiring land and property in areas where it has less presence'.

Unfortunately it would require someone with more expertise on non-UK equivalents of the Charity Commission to find the relevant documents, with the language barrier standing as it is. Many BKs will be able to testify that the organisation raised money to donate to the Asian Earthquake and the South East Asian Tsunami appeals, and it remains to be seen whether these efforts were noted in official documents. Hopefully, with time, they will appear. However, this does not mean that the fragment 'A multi-million dollar registered "educational" charity that in 70 years has only been known once to distribute aid outside of its operations.' does not also need to cite a source. Whilst you cannot prove a negative, a source here would serve both purposes. Until then it should either be re-written, deleted or a will need to be put there.

Also, I believe common sense dictates that the use of the phrase 'spiritual entrepreneur' is not meant to denote a link between business and spirituality.

I apologise for mistaking the colour of Krishna's skin. Even if it is symbolic it must be noted that the BK use of the word Krishna differs greatly from the traditional use of the term. It is misleading, inaccurate and will need to be edited.

I take it you are agreement with points 1, 3 and 4? If not, please state why following my previous post. PEACE 84.13.205.142 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

"I believe this article needs to be flagged as NPOV and a warning needs to be up saying that it does not cite its sources. PEACE 89.240.134.193 09:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)"

It is evident that the authors of this page have a clear dislike with BK. User .244 has his own web site brahmakumaris.info where he clearly edits, changes and does wahtever is necessary to fit his beliefs, it is not surprising that he wants to do the same here. Any serious "encyclopedia" must have a non-biased approach when informing the public. How many votes do we need to get the NPOV tag and a very strong warning? What is the policy on this? So far 2 votes.

Last but no least, Talkabout. still waiting for the "computer glitch" in the brahmakumaris.info to be resolved. My membership there has not been reinstated. I am being blamed for calling "Ex-l" as "195.82.106.244" and that was considered a personal attack. Hopefully he will not edit this out.

As always Best Wishes, avyakt7 21:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

OK Avyakt Bud, sound enough, but I can see no reference to this on the brahmakumaris.info forum, so I guess it must have been censured as well? What say you .244? Tell you what Bud, if you are Ex-l, then from what I’ve seen of your postings, I wouldn’t say you’ve a clear dislike for the bk, more the mother of all clear dislikes for not only them but pretty much anyone else you can find on the web with any hint of association with them.

Guess we better make that 3 votes for the NPOV tag then hadn’t we? Sincerely searchin man 23:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

avyakt7,

I must say to you that your sensitivity here is lacking. As stated before there was no issue until your membership was at risk. Play nice and maybe others will play with you.

• First, as you know many Ex BK suffer from trauma once they leave due to the constant talk of destruction.
• Secondly, the forums serve as a place where they (ExBks) do not have fear, where they have an outlet to discuss all these tenents that the Organisation wants kept secret and which they are trying to sort out.
• Thirdly, I see that the PBKs act with more tact and sensitivity in being able to play nice in the sandbox with both BKs and ExBKs. Your skills (computer/flash) are good, artistic and I am sure you can elicit some interaction from other active BKs. So, if you can't play nice, start your own party. MY VOTE IS NO NPOV.

Riveros 11 avyakt7 = searchin man? Are we having a duality moment here?

TalkAbout 01:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Bhais,

a) If you want to use the Misplaced Pages, read the rules. " Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes. "

That is the official policy.

b) 89.240.134.193 if you want citations, place one of the following citation request at the point where it is required by using the following markup ;

{{cn}} or {{Cite needed}}

and allow us time to provide them. Be warned, it is a two way process and the BKWSU will equally have to provide its citations where requested and I would like to request now overall Global financial statements detailing how much money and what proportion of donations it has actually given to alleviate poverty, when it started to do so and so on. If you can request this from your Zone-in-Charge then we will make for a very neutral and accurate report.

c) If you have answers, and citable sources, let us see them and reach that consensus. You have not provided any to support your positions to date. I am perfectly willing to provide mine.

d) Avyakt7, honestly, if you got kicked off a webforum for attacking someone else, go fix it with the owners. You are a BK teacher in Florida. That was obvious back in March of this year. What Shrimat have your taken to act in the manner that you are acting? Tell us the whole story. More personal attacks?

OK, so I voted against your "Cycle of Time" topic but the overwhelming consensus was against you. I am sure you love Baba but science is another game.

d) Transformation versus Destruction. Avyakt7 again. Yes, I also removed your Transformation re-writes. We all know that the concept of "Destruction" is and has been key to the BKWSU teachings. OK. I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. But if the BKWSU have stated there is going to be no Destruction, no death of 6 Billion human beings, no Confluence Age, therefore no Golden Age - provide the citations.

So, of course, it does not require a NPOV. What it requires is dialogue and citable evidence. Honestly, you BKs are becoming more like the Scientologists every day! 195.82.106.244 04:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Real disappointed with you there Talkabout. When I first looked in on this discussion, you had raised Avyakt7’s complaint on the user Brahmakumaris.info talk page and I took it as some indication of impartiality. Now I see all trace of that has been removed and Avyakt7 still locked out. Can’t see any further communication between yourself and user Brahamkumaris.info on the matter either, so whatever your offline communication was, seems the hostile mockery in your above response to Avyakt7 means you’re now pretty satisfied his banishment was justified. Let me tell you Bud, I ain’t satisfied, and let me tell you just why his complaint is just dead relevant to the NPOV request on this Wiki discussion.

In the main BrahmaKumaris.info discussion thread Avyakt7 was involved in, Ex-l typically starts muck raking through the web and mocking the guy with a link to a poker site he has contributed to. No censure there it seems, yet Avyakt7 tells us he got censured because he addressed Ex-l as 195.82.106.244 in a subsequent post.

Now to me that’s just pointing out that he reckons he knows Ex-l from another site under another annonymous id. No identity threat there, not even insult. But what happens, the guy not only gets his post censored, he gets barred completely. Talkabout bud, your alarm bells otta be ringing loud and clear, there’s an urgent need for an NPOV and very strong warning on this site now. If you’re still not getting it, let me tell you just why.

Avykat7 was bang on with 195.82.106.244 = Ex-l.

The censure and barring that followed means that 195.82.106.244 was lying to BKSimonb about his connection with Brahamkumaris.info.

There is a very pretty cosy connection between Ex-l and his forum administrator, who you Talkabout bud, seem to think is the user Brahmakumaris.info on this wiki discussion.

Anyone can see from Ex-l’s posts that he spends most of his waking life looking for ways to discredit the bk/anyone associated with the bk.

See you’re real concerned about identity’s being legitimate in this discussion group. So you just go right ahead and check out avyakt7=searchin man with the wiki’s sockpuppet detection guys and if you’ve really no connection with the BrahmaKumaris.info site, then do us all favour and get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked same time.

Sincerely --searchin man 17:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Godly Intellectual Property.

In order to illustrate the Misplaced Pages article on the BKWSU, we propose to reference original teaching posters as inspired and authenticated by God Shiva and Brahma Baba.

We have listed the following images but these require a correct copyright to be assigned to them. This raises an interesting dilemma ;

• Who owns the copyright to God's works or God's versions? Are they covered by limited, proprietory licenses or are they open and unlimited?

To our minds, the answer has to be no one. They must surely be in the public domain, or Copyleft, as they have been given freely by God, and Prajapita, to humanity in order that eacha nd every individuall may use them to earn their own inheritance. In a sense, God Shiva appears to support the GNU 'General Public License' principle.

Following on from this ;

• What is the accredited creation date for The Cycle, The Ladder, The Trimurti, and the Lakshmi and Narayan concepts?

Presumably the individual artists gave over their personal rights to the images, as the ideas were not theirs in the first place, but perhaps you can clarify what rights Shiva Baba - or the BKWSU - exert over Godly Intellectual Property in your role in the Global IT Team.

• Lastly, if possible, we would like to give proper credit to the original artists.

We await your advises with concern.

Thank you.

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bklandn_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkcycle_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bkladder_A4.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bktree_A4.jpg

Brahmakumaris.info 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Anonymity, Cults and personal attacks.

User Riveros11 or Avyakt7 enters into this discussion have been allegedly kicked off a discussion forum. He had allegedly been attempting to reveal personal information about another person he had dug off the internet in a menacing manner, presumably intended to win an argument.

As a cult member of this group we are documenting, immediately he commences exactly the strategy attacking me and attempting to connect me with this other individual. Obviously, a strategy of intimidation used by Cults like the Scientologist to frighten individuals off from revealing their truths to the public eye, he now engages a 'buddy' to help him.

The Misplaced Pages protects individuals and encourages discussion. Its official policy is "no personal attacks" and within personal attacks is stated, "Threats or actions which expose other Misplaced Pages editors to political, religious or other persecution by government, their employer or any others. Violations of this sort may result in a block for an extended period of time which may be applied immediately by any sysop upon discovery". So, in line with policy, I am formaly requesting you to decist from personal attacks and to remove any smears, allegations or confusions you are attacking me with.

As an example of which, I would like to illustrate. Riveros11 or Avyakt7 has an issue with Destruction and Transformation. If we take his user names, those subjects and his known affiliation with this cult and put them into Google, within a few steps it reveals

• his proper name
• his place of work
• his department and position
• his professional qualifications
• two telephones
• work email address
• his degree of involvement with the BKWSU

Within a few steps, one is about 70% on the way to identity theft.

Now, given the current state of tension, fear and security paranoia within the USA; BKWSU teacher Avyakt7 writes on more than on forum, "We, will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the bombs. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used". Now, it is also policy that, "membership of an organization does not prohibit an indivdual from contributing". But from this, we could easily say Avyakt7 to be;

• a recruiting leader of an extremist Eastern cult involved in psychic channelling and mind control
• a cult that believes in the destruction of free society and that it is agent to destroying free society
• a leader who demands total surrender of mnd, body and wealth
• a leader that teaches that "the world is a haystack ... it will burn" to "make Heaven on Earth" for his 900,000 virgin followers
• a group that operates numerous fronts and is infiltrating politics and power internationally
• cult members of whom chop and change representing these various fronts in public

You can see how a malicious individual could use such easily gleaned personal information in a personal attack. Now, obviously, I have deliberately constructed an extreme scenario here - even if the citations are there to support it - but what does the general public really know about what is going on inside the mind of Raja Yoga / BKWSU? What even do the neophyte followers know?

I suggest that if we meet in the Misplaced Pages, we observe the Wiki's policies. When in Rome ... and all that. 195.82.106.244 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)