This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 69.196.164.190 (talk) at 17:47, 30 August 2006 (→Maps of Persian empires). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Urgent articles in need of expansion

For now, I think we should be working on the 10-12 provinces that are need of expansion. Ive listed them on the main page here.--Zereshk 00:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Im also thinking that Afghanistan's provincial pages also need help. After all, Afghanistan, Azarbaijan, and the Central Asian Republics are all cultural satellites of Iran.--Zereshk 23:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Economy of Iran

The Economy of Iran article needs to be formatted and then expanded. Any help would be appreciated. Aucaman 20:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Persian vs. Iranian

Could you, if you will, please have a look into the following dispute on the Zoroastrian talk page.

Talk:Zoroastrianism#Persian_vs._Iranian

Thanks in advance. Str1977 10:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Iran featured?

Could we set a goal of this project as getting Iran to featured status? The original FAC nomination mentioned this WikiProject, and the article being featured on the main page would be a huge boon to Iran-related topics and certainly make Misplaced Pages a "premier resource" on Iran. (I am currently soliciting feedback; if there are no significant objections I will add it to the project page.) --Wikiacc (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Wikiacc (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Fazlollah Zahedi

Could somebody please take a look at Fazlollah Zahedi, as the story of the coup appears to be at odds with what is said elsewhere (see Talk:Fazlollah Zahedi). Also, I'm surprised there isn't an article on the coup itself (I suppose Operation Ajax comes close). Rd232 10:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Im not competent to write on that topic. I know nothing about it. Unfortunately.--Zereshk 22:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Iran on IDRIVE

I'm considering putting Iran on the Article Improvement Drive to help get it featured in a more timely fashion--plus it'll be improved by editors who may not usually be around the Iran corner of Misplaced Pages. Soliciting feedback… --Wikiacc ¶ 22:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Good idea to me.--Zereshk 04:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Empty sections in Portal:Iran

Here are a few ideas for filling up empty sections on the portal:

• Life in Iran (article on culture,arts,cuisine, etc.)
• Selected Iranian
• Quote
• "In the spotlight" <- article about something in news

Let's try and make it a featured portal. deeptrivia (talk) 00:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Template:History of Iran

Islamic republic of Iran is listed under 'Empires of Iran'! this was pointed out when the Persian empire article was put up for 'featured articles'.. I think it needs a little fixing. --Kash 15:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

What needs to be done?

I'm willing to participate in this project and currently I'm disambiguating links to ] . Could someone let me know what needs to be done in this project? Mahanchian 19:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Getting Iran featured

Should we address all the issues and try again? deeptrivia (talk) 23:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think user:wikiacc is working on that one.--Zereshk 01:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

History stub

Do we need another page for Iran history stubs? I found a number of them which I addedd to {{iran-stub}}. Mahanchian 23:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Heja Helweda, Diyako, Aucaman

These three users are on some sort of anti-Iranian crusade vandalizing all the Iranian and Persian related articles. We need to keep an eye on their " edit activities" as their intentions is not sincere but merely for the purpose of propagating false information.

Al-Khwarizmi

Someone please check this out: Talk:Al-Khwarizmi#Persian_again.2C_huh.3F. An editor is insisting on removing all statements pointing to the Persian origin of Al-Khwarizmi, who he claims is an Arab in every way. Can someone cite a good reference? Thanks! deeptrivia (talk) 15:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Your comments would be appreciated

Systematic vandalism on Iran-related articles reported: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Aucaman_and_User:Heja_helweda_and_User:Diyako

Your comments would be appreciated

Rumi is being peer reviewed

Please go through the article, and suggest how it can be improved further to raise it to featured status. I've put it on peer review: Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi. Thanks! deeptrivia (talk) 18:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Persian Empire

Please be aware that the article Persian Empire is being regulary vandalized by an unregistered user (see the various ip addresses). The edits appear to be designed to undermine the idea of Iran being a continuous nation or civilization. Here is an example of one of the edits:

Successive states in ancient Iran are collectively mislabeled the Persian Empire by some Western historians regardless of the fact that succesive states had little of the continuity that would be ascribed to a singular state; the language, forms of government, state religion, military culture, capital city and economic system changed every time a new centralizing authority arose upon the Iranian plateau.'

The editor is most likely attempting to create a pretext for seperatism. --Houshyar 04:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on the edits, I believe that the ip vandal is Bockspur. --Houshyar 05:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Help!

Can someone write this in text (Farsi script) for me? I am assuming it reads:

Mun tu shudam tu mun shudi,mun tun shudam tu jaan shudi

Taakas na guyad baad azeen, mun deegaram tu deegari

If not, please transliterate the above into Farsi script. Thanks! deeptrivia (talk) 05:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Greater Iran

Please show your support on the Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Greater_Iran page. --Houshyar 18:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Heja and Diyako's attacks

In light of the above and recent occurences, the way to deal with these people is to take them to ArbCom. I think we have a case to ban them from Iranian articles based on their obsession with dismantling Iranian articles. We did this once with another user. He was banned permanently from editing specific articles.--Zereshk 00:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Heja and Diyako must be banned

I agree with the decision to refer them to ArbCom. They must not be allowed to continue their lies and propoganda. They have never posted anything factual. They just post their own opinions and that is unacceptable.

Iranian Wikipedians' Notice Board (WatchDog)

Please bookmark this page, for daily updates on the status of the Iran-related articles. Read notices posted by others or add your own notice by updating "Urgent view". --ManiF 15:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Today the Change definitions and set the Grounds for Tommrows attack on Iran and the Middle East

All Iranian related articles are being attacked by user:Acuman, user:Diyako, and others with objectives very similar to the Israeli governments. Saying Kurds and Jews are one!? Saying Iranian is not an ethnic group!? Saying Khuzistan wants independence!? Saying Balouch are not Iranian!? Saying Kurds are ashamed to be called Iranian!?

Protect the truth becuase today the attack defintions to set the grounds for tommrows wars and problems. 69.196.139.250 02:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Conversation on Nowruz and User: Diyakos claims that Nowruz is not Iranian

Exactly, it shouldn't all be about the Persians. That's why I changed the introduction at Norouz to make it acceptable to all groups, including the Kurds. I got it from here. Let me know what you think. --Khoikhoi 21:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Would you like to do the merge? I feel that if I do it I'll mess it up. What do you think of the new intro? --Khoikhoi 21:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think the Iranian editors will agree with you on this. I changed the intro to include the Kurds, so what makes the Kurdish version so different that it needs its own article? The Russian version of Christmas doesn't have it's own article. --Khoikhoi 21:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The russion version of christmas has not its own article has nothing to with the Kurdish Newroz article. Kurdish Newroz is different than Farsi Norouz and deserves its own article. also farsi users have their own pov who may claim Adam and Eve were farsi or as they say Iranian. If you still think the POV of some farsis is more important for you then you can nominate the Kurdish Newroz for deletion. Sure there are more neutral wikipedians than you farsis.Diyako Talk + 21:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

But you haven't explained to me what makes the Kurdish version so different. Please do. And why do you keep calling them Farsis? Are you aware that this term is deprecated because it has Arab origins? It seems that you're doing it to provoke them. Have you seen the website No more "FARSI" !!! ? --Khoikhoi 21:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the article and I couldn't find it. Secondly, in the English language we use "Persians" to refer to them, not "Farsis". And what do you mean you know me? --Khoikhoi 21:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

There was a warning issued about the use of "Farsi" and I think you are trying to be disrespectual and provactive with the term Farsi and Farsi Noruz. COnsider this a warning. Secondly there is no such thing as Farsi Noruz. There is only one Noruz which is celebrated by all Iranian people and people of Iranian culture. You stated Nevruz was similar to Noruz. NO IT IS NORUZ, just in another language. 69.196.139.250 21:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm neither Turkmen nor Kazak, I do not knwo much on the turkic nevruz but that turkish cultural source states shows how they are different. their only similarity is that they are on beging of spring.

Also the word Farsi is more accurate than Persian. Farsi is the name of modern persians i provided a dzen of sources in the talk page of Persian people.Diyako Talk + 22:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC).Diyako Talk + 21:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Who am I then? Send me an email. --Khoikhoi 21:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Nevruz is Noruz just a different langauge. And all the states you cliamed have registered to have it recognized along with Iran and Iraq (representing Kurdistan) as one clebration under the name Nowruz to UNESCO. There is no need for this article. Becuase the subject people's official governments recognize it as being the one and same as Nowruz, which it is in relaity, and have made join motions with Iran on the issue.

Here are your verifications.

• http://www.payvand.com/news/05/apr/1107.html

69.196.139.250 22:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

User Deyako is further attacking Iranian articles

See his webpage about his Farsi comments. Someone get Admin involved with him. Also he is vandalising the Kurdish article saying the Kurdish flag is criminal in Iran and using random/fake webpages. They say nothing about flags. See his talk page and also the Kurdistan article. I clearly warned the editors on the fake sources and fabrication. ADMIN NEEDED. 69.196.139.250 02:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Watch Dog: All Editors if you wan this anti-Iranian cartel busted read my talk page

Read my talk user:Manik666 page and the Kurdistan talk page and archieves and you will have user:Diyako busted and proof that Heja and Acuman are biased have an anti-Iranian agenda. Go to my talk page and read Harassment. Manik666 05:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles on ziyarat and ziyaret

MPatel and I have been working on articles on ziyarat and ziyaret, or Muslim pilgrimage and places of pilgrimage. Help is requested on ziyarat, to explain the usual procedures at shrines, especially Shi'a shrines, and on ziyaret to get a list of pilgrimage sites in Iran. PD and CC pictures would be particularily welcome. This is a chance to educate people in the beauties of Islamic and Persian architecture and gardens. Zora 13:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Acuman trying to create edit wars between Iranians and Arab editors

Here is a direct quote: Watchlist this article and follow some of the things in the discussion page. Same with Persian Gulf naming dispute. AucamanTalk 06:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also here quotes by user:Ahwaz

If you get into any dispute with the Persian chauvinist gang over content, they will not compromise and start making allegations, the favourite being: anti-Iranian, anti-Persian, Jew, Israeli, separatist, terrorist, "want to break up Iran", and all that crap. They are free to say this without any admin interference. When I tell someone to blow their nose, there is a big furore and the admins take action. Misplaced Pages is a pile of rubbish and the people that run it are donkeys. The code of conduct is there for powerful gangs to impose their agendas. If five people are against two or three, it does not matter how many times you revert they will always have their point of view imposed on articles. Why spend time on this nonsense? Even the media is now showing up Misplaced Pages's failings. No serious academic is involved (oh, there's the "genius" Zereshk, who knows everything about nuclear engineering, quantum physics, architecture, philosophy, poetry, religion, linguistics, medicine - you name it, he is the self-appointed expert - and he still finds time to run edit wars and insult people). Ask yourself why. Because no serious academic takes it seriously. It is rubbish.--Ahwaz 11:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

69.196.139.250 00:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-American Forces and Israel are fostering these artificual problems in Iran

All the beheadings, murder of foreign reporters, mosque bombings, and terrorist activities in Iraq are committed or sanctioned by Anglo-American occupation forces or Israel. Israel is very much so involved in North Iraq that is why there is new claims that Kurds and Jews are one and the same race by Israelis. This has resulte din an alliance between a very small minority of Iraqi Kurds and Israelis. Connect the dots with what is happening from Iraq to Iran.

Here is proof:

British Special Forces Caught Carrying Out Staged Terror In Iraq?: Media Blackout Shadows Why Black Op Soldiers Were Arrested: USA, Information Liberation ]

Britain "apologizes" for terrorist act in Basra; Rescue of SAS men who were planning to place bombs in Basra City Square: Global Research.ca, Center for Research on Globalization ]

The next link is photographic evidence taken by Iraqi Police, before British Military attacked police station and freed the British terrorist operatives. ]

Caught red-handed: The Raw Story, North America ]

Troops free SAS men from jail: The Telegraph, United Kingdom ]

Iran accuses UK of bombing link: BBC, United Kingdom ]

Basra council severs relations with British: Daily Star, Lebanon ]

Basra Council Cutting Ties with British: China Radio International (CRI), China ]

69.196.139.250 04:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

What I wrote to user:Aucman in concerns to manifest indication of his anti-Iranian objectives

It is sad but Iranians and other Middle Easters are being targeted by editors supporting an aggresive Israeli drive and policy of creating war in the Middle East and region. User:Acuman tried to repress and hide what I said because it exposed the ugly nature of his objectives.The following is a series of messages I posted to this user who is editing facts about Iranian leaders and clerics and Iranian culture and Iranian history. Trying to paint a picture of Iran in the worst way and cause discord between Iranians. He has claimed that Kurds are not Iranians or that Aryan is a fictional and un-academic term. Anways please read;

I notice that you everything you work on is related to Persians and other groups problems with those issues

May I ask you how you are an expert on such topics as scholars from the Middle East and their biographies or the Persian Gulf, and Kurds? 69.196.139.250 22:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, ya I also cited your statments about the fact that you wanted to cite that certain Muslim clerics have okayed sex with animals and children. How do you justify this statement and thought and even treat it like it could be true?69.196.139.250 22:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

IN reply to you this is what I observe, alongside others....

These are your direct quotes on the Khoemini discussion page ;

I had seen some literature out there suggesting that Khomenini approved of sex with children and animals. Now someone has added some of these claims into this article. I'm not going to take them out, but the article is going to receive a dispute tag until these information are verified. AucamanTalk 04:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is a direct quote from you to user:Pecher; I've added some stuff about Khomeini's views on non-Muslims, but people might try to take them out. Could you keep an eye on that article as well? AucamanTalk 14:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC) This is verified on user:Pecher's talk page.

What is all the interest you and Pecher have on Khoeimini and other Iranian clerics. Also your articles on Ahmadenajid all show a disturbing trend that you are trying to paint some sort of picture. It is like connect the dots.

Here are a list of articles you have worked on;

• Human rights abuses by the Iraqi insurgency
• Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel
• Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
• International reactions to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy
• Opinions on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy
• Greater Middle East
• Turkish Kurdistan

Major contributions

These are the pages you have made major edits to (or am working on right now):

• People of Turkey
• Kurdish people
• Turkish people
• Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
• Ayatollah Khomeini
• Ayatollah Khamenei
• Middle East

Wow human rights abuses in the Iraqi insurgency! Very odd and specific topic! Ahmadinejad and Israel! The Mohammed cartoons. All your edits really benefit in making Israel look good compared to the rest of the Middle East. Answer me this are you an Israeli citizen too? I think you are on an agenda. All your edits against Iranians (from Kurds to Persians,etc.) since Iran is seen as the biggest threat to Israel and all your other edits in the Arab fields. Also trying being a force in tension between Arab and Iranian and Turkish editors. All at the benefit of Israel.

69.196.139.250 02:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

==Watch this user he is mobilizing Arabs, Iranians, Turks, and others against each other. Anyway that he can demean Iran and the Middle East he does.

69.196.139.250 04:12, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes

Made these three userboxes, don't really know what to do with them, i use them in my own page, feel free to use them as well. --Darkred 22:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

This user is interested in Ancient Persia

Nevermind these 3, i put the boxes in the article page, achaemenid and parthian --Darkred 11:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

UFO Incident

I was wondering if there is a article on Misplaced Pages regarding the 1976 Tehran F-4 UFO incident.

01:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)~~User: Eagle The Great 6:31, 1 May 2006 (Pacific)

No, but there is an article about it in the

"Here is scientific proof that says Azeris are not Turks: You can argue with people but not science"

Azeris are mixed of Armeno-Iranian heritage:

Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome

Nasidze I, Sarkisian T, Kerimov A, Stoneking M.

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Inselstrasse 22, 04103, Leipzig, Germany. nasidze@eva.mpg.de

A previous analysis of mtDNA variation in the Caucasus found that Indo-European-speaking Armenians and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanians were more closely related genetically to other Caucasus populations (who speak Caucasian languages) than to other Indo-European or Turkic groups, respectively. Armenian and Azerbaijanian therefore represent language replacements, possibly via elite dominance involving primarily male migrants, in which case genetic relationships of Armenians and Azerbaijanians based on the Y-chromosome should more closely reflect their linguistic relationships. We therefore analyzed 11 bi-allelic Y-chromosome markers in 389 males from eight populations, representing all major linguistic groups in the Caucasus. As with the mtDNA study, based on the Y-chromosome Armenians and Azerbaijanians are more closely-related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic neighbors elsewhere.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12596050

So, both the mtDNA (female line) and the Y-chromosomes (from father to son) seem to prove the fact, that modern Azeris are predominantly Turkic-speaking Armenians and Iranians. Their DNA has Europeana and Middle Eastern traces, but not Eastern Asian ones , which one would assume if they really were Turks. 72.57.230.179

I have placed the Azari Article under the Iranian Wiki Project

Please take a look at it and work on it.Azaris are an important part of Iran/Persia. 72.57.230.179 21:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolute Proof that the claims from the Republic Of Azarbaijan's Revisionists are FALSE

Azaris are culturally, ethnically and historically Iranian; that said here is acadmeic fact.... Here are more sources that prove a lot of what you are saying is misinformation. http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/PARTIIAzar.html

The pan-Turanian theories discussed in Part I represent only a part of the picture. There is a whole set of beliefs being narrated about Iranian Azerbaijan in both the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Turkish Republic. They are using the Turkish language as an instrument to differentiate Iranian Turcophones from the rest of Iran. Some of the pan-Turanian claims to Iranian Azerbaijan can be summarized into the following:

(1) Greater Azerbaijan was divided between Russia and Persia.

(2) Azerbaijanis have spoken Turkish since the advent of History.

(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years.

(4) The Safavid Empire was Turkish.

(5) Sattar Khan was a pan-Turanian separatist.

(6) Babak Khorramdin was a Turk who fought against Persia.

(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.

Before discussing these items, an important point must be revisited. Pan-Turanian claims to Azerbaijan are supported by a very powerful western lobby in the form of multinational and geopolitical petroleum interests. These hope to access and dominate the lucrative oil bonanza looming in the energy deposits of the Caucasus and Central Asia (see Part VI, items 1-3).

(d) Mr. Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh. A leading proponent of Arran’s name change was Mohammad Amin Rasulzadeh (1884-1955), the first leader of the newly created Republic of Azerbaijan (see photo below). Rasulzadeh was of Iranian origin from Baku, and was in fact heavily involved in the constitutional democratic movement of Iran during the early 1900s (see Sattar Khan in item 5). Rasulzadeh was in fact the editor of the newspaper Iran-e-Now (The New Iran). Russian influence and coercion finally forced the Iranian government to expel Rasulzadeh from Iran in 1909 (?); he was exiled to Ottoman Turkey, where the Young Turk movement had gained power.

By the 1930s, Rasulzadeh’s writings revealed his full conversion to pan-Turanianism:

(a) At first he admitted that “Azerbaijan” (Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran?) was an ancient Iranian province that had been linguistically Turcified since at least the 13th century.

(b) He then rejected his previous writings and declared that Azerbaijan (both Arran and Azerbaijan in Iran) had always been “Turkish” and was never historically an integral part of Persia

Rasulzadeh had betrayed his Iranian heritage in two ways. First, he failed to fulfill his promises to Iranian Azerbaijanis to rectify the name change he had bought for Arran (at pan-Turanian behest). Second, Rasulzadeh adopted a false, divisive, and racist ideology. Rasulzadeh’s legacy continues to haunt the Caucasus and Iran to this day. That legacy has also provided an excellent tool for geopolitical manipulation.

After his arrest and expulsion from Russia, Rasulzadeh settled in Turkey, where he died in 1954 (see his funeral in Turkey below). Rasulzadeh established the “Azerbaijan National Centre” in Turkey, a movement which at the time was organized for the purpose of opposing Soviet rule in Arran (modern Republic of Azerbaijan).

c) Linguistic Turkification. The process of linguistic Turkification was reinforced with the arrival of the Mongols in the 1200s, and their Il-Khanid dynasty in Persia. Tamerlane’s descendants, the Qara/Kara-Qoyunlu (Black Sheep) and Ak/Aq-Qoyunlu (White Sheep) also ruled Iran. It must be noted that the Turkish migrants became absorbed into mainstream Persia, and they greatly patronized Persian, arts, culture and literature. Turks as whole have been tremendously influenced by Iranian culture – a prime example is the Moghul Dynasty of India, of Turkmen-Mongol descent. The Moghuls promoted Persian culture in India, a legacy which lasts to this day in modern India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

By the early 16th century (see Safavids item 4), Azerbaijani Turkish had largely replaced the indigenous Iranian Azeri in Azerbaijan and had also spread to Arran. The Turkish language however, did not alter the thousands year long Iranian character and legacy of Arran and Azerbaijan. As noted in item 4, the Safavid dynasty, whose members spoke Turkish in court and introduced much Turkish vocabulary to Iran, considered themselves as the heirs of Persia and bitterly fought the Ottoman Turks throughout their reign.

In Persia, identity has never been delineated by singular, simplistic and narrow concepts such as “race”, “mother language” or even “religion”. Consider the following examples:

SafavidsThe aforementioned Nader Shah was an ethnic Turcomen and adhered to the Sunni branch of Islam. Karim Khan Zand (1705-1779) (see illustration below) and his partisans spoke Luri, a west Iranian language distinct from Persian and Kurdish. The Zands (like Nader Shah before them) were essential in preserving Persia’s territorial integrity after the fall of the Safavids.

(3) Turks have been in the Caucasus for over 5000 Years. FALSE

This is at best, a grandiose exaggeration. The real influence of the Turks begins with the Seljuks and Ottomans, and even then, the Turks are only one more layer upon an ancient region that has seen a rich and varied legacy. If anything, it is the Persian and (to a lesser extent), the Greco-Roman legacies that remain in the Caucasus. The Turks, like the Russians and Ukrainians certainly have their legacy in the Caucasus. The issue in question is the exaggeration of the Turkish role, now proposed by pan-Turanian ideologues.

The Caucasus is one of the oldest cradles of human civilization – a prime example being the proto-Kartvelian Hurrian empire (2500-1270 BC) which at one time ruled much of northwest Iran and contemporary Kurdistan. The Hurrian legacy is still evident among the Kurds who use the ergative feature in their speech – a phenomenon seen in modern Georgian. While the Caucasus has certainly seen its share of Persian, Greek, Turkish and Russian influence, she has in turn vigorously and profoundly influenced all of these cultures in turn.

“The oldest outside influence in Trans-Caucasia is that of Persia (p.203)…many of its populations, including Armenians and Georgians, as well as Persians and Kurds, the Transcaucasus had much closer ties with the former Sassanian world to its south and east than with the world to the west (p.204)”..

'(7) Azerbaijanis and all who speak Turkish are Turkish by race.'FALSE

(a) Ziya Gokalp. The notion of Azeris being Turkish because of language is based on the late Ziya Gokalp (1876-1924) who equated language with racial and ethnic membership: you are racially Turkish if you speak Turkish. This is a standard argument of characters like Mr. Chehreganli and his western geopolitical supporters. Gokalp was in fact a Kurd born in Diyarbakr. He is one of a long line of non-Turks who helped build pan-Turanian ideology (Part I, item 1).

By no means is the discussion in this item attempting to simplistically outline the complex (and anthropolically interwoven) Iranian and Turkish national, ethnic, and linguistic identities. Such a Herculean task would require volumes of text. Instead, we are clearly confining the discussion to the linear and (in my opinion) divisive concept of “race” – in the purely anthological sense.

The main weakness of Gokalp’s simplistic premise is his oversimplification of the complex interrelationships between ethnicity, nationality, language and historical migrations. His logic is that speakers of a language “X” must also be racially members of “X”.

Likewise, being a Turcophone does not mean that one is automatically Turkish or Turkic by race. National identity is based on a number of domains, only one of which is defined by language. Nevertheless, this simplistic logic (language = race) is being used to attack the Iranian heritage of the people of Azerbaijan and Iran in general.

National identity is multi-faceted. A Belgian could be either a Francophone (Walloon) or Dutch dialect speaker (Flemish). A Frenchman can be Basque (Eskuri) or speak an Italian dialect (e.g. Provencal, Corsican, etc.). In northern France, many of the inhabitants lay claim to a proud Celtic tradition (Brittany).

Many modern Turks hail from Bosnian, Georgian, Iranian (Persian, Kurdish, Azeri) Greek, Arab, Venetian, Slavic and Armenian backgrounds. Arabs are just as diverse – in the eastern Arab world, many have Iranian ancestry (Persian and Kurdish) – the Levant has seen multitudes of Hittite, Mittani, etc. settlers in its history. In the Western Arab world one finds a plethora of Christians (Greek Orthodox, Coptic, etc.). One can also trace much of the ancestry of modern Arabs to the earlier Semitic peoples such as the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians (Aramaic-speakers), Syriacs, etc.

The Iranian ethnic mosaic is far too complex to even begin attempting to define it in the confines of this commentary. If we extend timelines back to pre-Aryan arrivals, we witness proto-Elamites in the Southwest and Southeast, and Hurrian arrivals from the Caucasus. We then have a long period of Iranian Aryan migrations onto the Iranian plateau and eastern Anatolia (many areas of western Iran and modern Kurdistan was already settled by Assyrian peoples). Arab settlers also arrived during Sassanian and post-Sassanian eras (a number of their descendants survive in Khorrassan and Tajikestan)– these are then eclipsed by subsequent Turkic and Mongol arrivals. The very overall sketch just outlined highlights how complex definitions such as “race” and “language” are.

Gokalp was not entirely wrong about Iran – there are a plethora of Turkic settlers who can trace their ancestry to the original Oghuzz (the aforementioned Nader Shah was a Turkmen). But even the identity of the Turkmen (meaning “very Turk”) is hotly disputed. There are claims of strong Iranic admixture within them. This is not surprising as Turkic and Iranic peoples have been intertwined in Central Asia for thousands of years. Even the Mongols who invaded Persia are said to have had some Iranian (North Iranic?) ancestry (see Turnbull in references).

The genetic ancestry of modern Turks is highly varied, mainly as a result of multiple migrations, wars and empires. While modern Turks (and a growing number of Hungarians) stress their genetic connection to Central Asia, scientific evidence fails to corroborate their beliefs. True, there are Turkmen Turks of Central Asian stock in eastern Turkey, however a large proportion of modern Turks have Balkan, Persian, Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, Azeri, Georgian, Varangian, and even some Celtic ancestry. The latter seems surprising; however the term “Ankara” may be derived from the Celtic “Ankyra”. The Galatian Celts appear in Anatolia’s interior after the Greeks defeated them in 230 BC. The original Turkic stock from Central Asia (some of whom live in northeast Iran today) have little or no connection to the European-type U5 cluster.

(c) The Analyses of Colin Renfrew.

Professor Colin Renfrew (see 1994 References) notes how Turkic languages spread by Elite Dominance:

“…incoming minorities…conquer other populations and…impose their languages on them. The Altaic family spread in this fashion…”

Genetic alteration can only occur as a result of one of more of the following:

Sustained migrations across a long period of time

Population dispersals by farming,

Dispersals forced by climactic changes.

In general, the Turks did not arrive peacefully but as conquering elites who imposed their languages upon indigenous populations (Azeris, Arranis, etc.). Conquering elites provide very modest genetic changes to the indigenous populations that they conquer. However, they can alter the population’s language as result of their elite military and political dominance.

(d) The Cavalli-Sforza et al. Genetic Studies.

Renfrew’s studies have been corroborated by Professor Luigi Cavalli-Sforza (see photo below) and his colleagues, who have concluded the following after decades of genetic research:

“Around the third century B.C., groups speaking Turkish languages…threatened empires in China, Tibet, India, Central Asia, before eventually arriving in Turkey…genetic traces of their movement can sometimes be found, but they are often diluted, since the numbers of conquerors were always much smaller than the populations they conquered…(p.125)…Turks…conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453..replacement of Greek with Turkish ..Genetic effects of invasion were modest in Turkey. Their armies had few soldiers…invading Turkish populations would be small relative to the subject populations that had a long civilization and history…(p.152).”

Hungarians are considered to be Magyar speaking Europeans – not an Asiatic Turkic people. In like manner, why are the Azerbaijanis (of Iran in particular) being forcibly re-defined as “Turanian” simply because they speak Seljuk Oghuzz Turkish? How can a single index (Turkish language) be used to virtually erase Azerbaijan’s mighty civilizational identity in Persia? Azerbaijan has been of vital importance in the development of Persian civilization, just as Hungary has been a vital element in the development of European civilization.

It is here were the barbaric aspects of “race criteria” break down. In Afghanistan we have the Mongol descended “Hazara” (lit. “The Thousand” in Persian) who now speak Persian, or the many people of Khazar Turkish-Jewish descent in Dagestan (next to Chechniya) who speak Persian. Conversely, Azerbaijanis are an essentially Iranic people who mainly speak Turkish. A branch of the Turcophone Azeris are believed to have been settled in Iran’s Fars province by the Safavids– they are today known as the Qashqai’s (note photo of Qashaqi girl by Shahyar Mahabadi).

.....with all this criteria many of the Azari articles will have to refurbished. 72.57.230.179

Barmakids

Hello! I've just been working on improving the Barmakids article, and created the pages for some members of that family: Khalid ibn Barmak, Yahya ibn Khalid, and Ja'far ibn Yahya.

If someone here could go over those articles and see if there's anything that needs fixing, it'd be swell. I'm particularly thinking of the question of Persian names and transliteration. Any kind of feedback welcome :) flammifer 13:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Help needed

Following are lyrics of Shakila's song Yegaaneh, which I completely love. It would be *awesome* if someone can translate it for me. Thanks a ton!

تا کی به تمنای وصال تو یگانه
اشکم شود از هر مژه چون سیل روانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
خواهد به سرآیدشب هجران تو یا نه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه
هر در که زنم صاحب آن خانه تویی تو
هر جا که شدم پرتو کاشانه تویی تو
در کعبه و در دیر چو جانانه تویی تو
منظور من از کعبه و بتخانه تویی تو مقصود تویی ...کعبه و بتخانه بهانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
بلبل به چمن زار گل رخسار نشان دید
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه
عاقل به قوانین خرد راه تو جوید
دیوانه برون از همه آئین تو پوید
تا غنچهء نشکفتهء این باغ که بوید
هر کس به زبانی صفت حمد تو گوید
بلبل به غزل خوانی و قمری به ترانه
رفتم به در صومعه زاهد و عابد
دیدم همه را پیش رخت راکع و ساجد
در بتکده رهبانم و در صومعه زاهد
گه معتکف دیرم و گه ساکن مسجد
یعنی که تو را می طلبم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
بلبل به چمن زان گل رخسار نشان دید
پروانه در آتش شد و اسرار نهان دید
عارف صفت حمد تو از پیر و جوان دید
یعنی همه جا عکس رخ یار توان دید
دیوانه منم ..من که روم خانه به خانه
ای تیره غمت را دل عشاق نشانه
جمعی به تو مشغول و تو فارغ ز میانه

deeptrivia (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Look at the Disfigurement of Iranian History

Are these okay edits on the part of this user?

The Azari-related articles are all massivly being deviated. Everyone should get proactive. 72.57.230.179

The Seeds of Discord are Being Planted

Iranians, Editors, People of Rational Minds, Academics... The seeds of propaganda are bieng planted: reports of the massacres of Azaris are being doctored. Look at what is weing said by editors from the Republic of Azarbaijan about Azaris, . They are really trying to forment biased articles. They have created to alternative articles about Shah Ismail I, one being a mythical Turk king. WE should merge the article and get rid of the Pan-Turkist fiction! 72.57.230.179

Request for expertise

On a lighter note... there is an article on Muhammad Iqbal that is currently up for an FA. Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Muhammad Iqbal

In the event that the usual FA reviewers lack the appropriate expertise, it would be of great help if someone familar with this person could participate in the article evaluation. Many thanks WikiProject Iran! --P-Chan 01:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

How do i become a member of wikiproject iran

How and what would i have to do? thanks in advance. Iranian Patriot 19:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sassanid Church

due to the sassanid fear of christians durign their wars with christian rome/byzantium, they created a seperate church for the christians of their empire, which would make them more loyal. this church was seperate from that of the one in rome and the eastern orthodox church in byantium. i typed in persian church in wikipedia and it took me to the assyrian church page. should i create an article about the sassanid church?Iranian Patriot 15:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Personally I have not heard of this until now and I'll try to find some info so I can help too. --(Aytakin) | Talk 04:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

ok, i created it: http://en.wikipedia.org/Sassanid_church#Bibliography

I would appreciate it if someone could create redirects to that page when someone types in Persian Chruch or Iranian Church, etc...Iranian Patriot 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

DONE! I made the redirects. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Grammer problems section

i would appreciate it if someone created a grammer problems section. that way i, as well as others, could find those articles easily and corret the mistakes in them, so that they look more professional. thanks in advance. also, with that new section, people can add on articles that they find, so they can be fixed. so far, i have corrected a number of articles, andi have no doubt that there are plenty more out there with a lot of grammatical mistakes in them.Iranian Patriot 16:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Don’t Kurds have a place on Wiki Iran?

Why there is nothing about the Kurds on the Open Tasks? Kiumars 14:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Because some self proclaimed Kurdish users insist that Kurds must be separate, and are not Iranian.--Zereshk 16:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

well, considering that most kurds do live outside of iran, it does makes sense that they have their own wikiproject. however, iranian kurdistan should also be represented in wikiproject iran.Iranian Patriot 16:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Certain members of Wikiproject Azeri are Raping the Iranian articles

Here is an example; on the Safavid talk page that was made by Iranian Editors, the label of this group is missing, but the Wikiproject Azeri label has been placed instead as shown here ]. In other articles they try and erase any trace of Azarbaijani links with Iran and try and push an agenda where Azaris are disciminated against in Iran. They will attack other editors if they say that Shah Ismail I is an Iranian. They say that Azarbaijanis want to seperate from Iran and so on. I have tried to take this in good faith, but they are now disrupting numerous Iranian articles. 69.196.164.190

Khorramshahr

The Khorramshahr page has been vandalized. An important city like this needs a more correct and respectful page. Nokhodi 04:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me. I have corrected it and moved the page back to khorramshahr, where it belongs.Khosrow II 05:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Cities and towns in Iran

The related Category:Cities and towns in Iran has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page.

Basically, we need somebody experienced that knows about the incorporation status of cities and towns. Are they mingled (nearly the same)? That's what it looks like at Geography of Iran. Or are they separate, as in many eastern countries?

--William Allen Simpson 01:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Maps of Persian empires

Hello Members of Wikiproject Iran !

I'm making some maps of persian empires for the french WP, and i'd like to have a little help from you to translate those maps in english so you could use them in you articles too. So far, I've made 3 of them (sassanids, achaemenids and persia circa AD 1000), and I'm planning to do timurids, safavids, and qajars. All those maps are inspired from the world historical Atlas of G. DUBY (ISBN 2-03-521227-8), which is a reference here in france. For now, you can find them on commons: commons:Category:Maps of the Persian Empire. I've posted that help message without answer to Zereshk (but I don't know if is gone from WP or not) and Arad. Maybe it could be simpler if I tell more people about my project. You can join me on my Fabienkhan on the english WP, but I'm more active on the french WP here. If some of you could work too to translate the maps in persian, we could propose at least 3 languages for those maps on commons.

Felan tâ badan. Fabienkhan | talk page 19:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

News about Iran

British troops are mobilizing on the Iranian border http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060830&articleId=3097