Talk:Mahmoud Abbas - Misplaced Pages

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shahid and martyr

Since the words shahid and martyr are interchangable an alternate translation might be "I present this victory to the soul of brother Yassir Arafat and to our other martyrs," instead of: "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids,"

I've removed the following text:

Recently, Abbas was the target of a al-Fatah attack. During a celebration where he figured, a large number of masked males appeared. They appearently fired in the air. It is unclear to me, but the incident ended with the death of two bodyguards. Abbas himself had been wisked away before the firing started. Later, Abbas has recented the incident as an assasination attempt, but rather as a clash between two security forces that had gone awry. Palestinian security officials later supported this view.

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A friend points out that he is called "Mahmoud Abbas" in the American press, and "Abu Mazen" everywhere else. Anyone have a more complete story on where his name comes from? This might help us decide what the "official" page should be. Graft 19:25, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Mahmoud Abbas is his actual name, while "Abu Mazen" is an adopted nom-de-guerre. I'm not sure what "Abu" means, but it's very common as a nom-de-guerre for Palestinians -- Yassir Arafat, for example, adopted the name Abu Amr, though he rarely uses it anymore, and there are quite a few other examples. --Delirium 19:29, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

Here in Germany he's called "Mahmud Abbas" as well. But, as I have heard, arabians tend to like changing their names all the time. A friend of mine, an attorney, told me how difficult that makes prosecuting arabian terrorists (or suspects) here, because it's also fairly common among rightous people... By the way, as far as I know "abu" means father. --malbi

For the record, this was originally at ], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When used like this, "Abu" means "Father of" or "Man of" in Arabic. Many Arab nationalists adopt this kind of nom de guerre, e.g. Abu Nidal (father of the struggle), Abu Mazen, Abu Jihad (father of jihad), Abu Sayaff (father of the sword), etc. Interestingly, a similar thing occurs with Jewish nationalists, who upon entering Israeli society typically leave their diaspora names behind them. Chadloder 15:42, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Title of Yasser Arafat

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

When Chairman Arafat enters the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, he will use the title 'Chairman (Ra'ees in Arabic) of the Palestinian Authority' or 'Chairman of the PLO', and will not use the title 'President of Palestine.'

Since then, Arafats official title in all international documents has been "Chairman" - either of the PLO or the PA. The PA was established, and its structure was formed, as part of an international agreement. Arafat can call himself whatever he likes on his website - his official title will still be "Chairman of the PA".

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the basic document of the PA? The letter by Rabin does not carry any legal standing, I believe. Is this an issue like with the FYROM, where the international community does not recognize the legal/domestic name? --Jiang 08:43, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not find the document you requested. However, here is an example of an international statement from 2000 which Arafat is a side to, and which referrs to him as "Palestinian Authority Chairman": .

This is perhaps somewhat like the issue with FYROM - except that Macedonia is an independent state (this is not disputed) - and therefore has more autonomy in deciding on its own name, whereas the PA is merely an "authority" - a product of international agreements - and is bound more strictly by those agreements.

The fact that the term "President of the PA" is never used in any official document to which the US (or Israel) is a side to - even when the PA is a side to the document - serves as an evidence that this title is not internationally recognized.

Since this seems to be a disputed issue (I did find some non-Palestinian references to "President Arafat", alongside references to Arafat as "Chairman of the PA") - I suggest that we remove his title completely from this article, and explain the situation in the Yasser Arafat article.

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Re Abu Mazen, the name is not a nom-de-guerre. It is a real name, meaning father of Mazen. Many Arabs change their name on the birth of their first son to Abu 'name of son' . Irish people followed a similar custom but linked to the father's name. Conor Ó Brien, meant Conor, son of Brien. Conor's son Sorley would be called Sorley Ó Connor, his son Padraic in turn would be called Padraic MacSorley, etc. However the tradition of changing names to link with a father's name has long since died out, but words like Ó (O'), Mc (Mac), etc symbolise that old link. Calling Abu Mazen a nom-de-guerre is misleading, as it is a real name adopted following Arab custom. A nom-de-guerre is a different thing entirely. Some Arab leaders do have Abu - xxx nom-de-guerres, but Mazen isn't one of them. FearÉIREANN 18:55, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it indicates that they may or may not be true. If multiple people had said the same thing, or it came from a neutral source, that'd be one thing. But it comes from a single source who is known to have a rivalry with the PA, so that makes it somewhat suspect. --Delirium 23:23, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...the timing does not fit well. Daoud published in 1999 (could have been written earlier) Abbas had a promient role then that would cause Daoud to target him for a false allegation? What role? OneVoice 12:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better if we could find a reply from Abbas and replace the "not corroborated by others" line with something like "Abbas denies the charges, saying '...'" (since I assume he denies the charges)? I'll do some searching in a bit. The main thing I objected to was presenting Daoud's charges as unopposed fact, when they're not generally considered such (I don't think even the US accepted them, or at least it didn't say much about them). --Delirium 21:48, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

New Material

The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.

"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11.

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Baha'i?

I've heard a rumor about Mahmoud Abbas that he's a Baha'i, this should be researched and confirmed, if so, we should add him to the list of Baha'is. :) Any comments? --Agari 14:36, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

I've heard that this was a rumour put about by Mossad in order to discredit him, and I recall people posting (on usenet Baha'i sites I regularly read) articles where he denies this. So, no he shouldn't be added to lists of Baha'is. I can try to look up those posts if anyone is interested. PaulHammond 22:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Abu Mazen has repeatedly denied this, but it has repeatedly been used against him (e.g. by Osama Bin Laden and the ex Shin Bet chief)

I have done quite a bit of research into this question (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BahaiMonitor/message/2)

I think this is an interesting question and relevant to Abu Mazen so it should be included. Any comments? User:AndrewRT 62.7.148.208 14:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Two points to settle the matter:

1) One of the twelve fundamental principles of the Bahá'í Faith is obedience to government and non-involvement in politics. This would mean that, if Abu Mazen were Baha'i, he has spent the last fifty years of his life blatantly disregarding one of the fundamental precepts of his prophet and church.

2) Not only is the Universal House of Justice (that is, the physical center of the Baha'i faith), located in Haifa, Israel, but the Baha'i have never challenged the establishment of Israel. Abu Mazen was nominally opposed to its existence until 1974.

Of course, Abu Mazen could have had an interest in Baha'i theology... but he would never have been accepted as active member in the church because of his political activities. End of story. --(Mingus ah um 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC))

No, not end of story, how many politicians do you know who have defied their religous beliefs? are you telling me ever baha'i, christian, muslim jew etc follow all aspects of their religion? Hardly. Furthermore, Hamas recognise Mahmoud Abbas as a Baha'i so there you go. (Truth 06 08:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

Never heard about this, very interesting if true, though it would put the Bahai faith into "some shame" (though it's not their fault) because like said they're real respectful of Israel and of other beliefs, and are peaceful people, while Abu Mazen atleast throughout most of his life wasn't. Amoruso 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

He's not a Baha'i. The rumours were started by those who were opposed to him and wanted to discredit him (much the same way people in Iran are discredited by starting rumours that they are Baha'is). Mahmoud Abbas has stated that he's a practising Muslim. See . Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Charged?

"He has been charged with involvement in terrorism" - has he actually been charged in a court of law, or merely accused? If it is a mere accusation, the wording should make that clear. Does anyone know more detail about this? --Smoddy 14:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Charged?

I've removed the following text:

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

For the record, this was originally at ], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Title of Yasser Arafat

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New Material

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed non NPOV sentence

I've taken this out:

Analysts in accurately predicted that these remarks might have harmed his prospects in the then-upcoming election, perhaps neglecting the popular impact of his physical and political embrace of representatives of Hamas, a terrorist group.

Which analyst predicted that? How does the writer know what considerations may or may not have influenced the voting of electors? Who says Hamas are terrorists, and who says Mazen supports them politically, despite his calls for moderation?

Anyway, this article will need a rewrite since Abu Mazen appear to have become the President of the PA today 1 PaulHammond 22:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Missing sources

The following statements seem suspicious and need sources or explanations:

"However, he refused to disarm Palestinian militants and use force to act against groups that Israel, the United States, and the European Union designated as "terrorist organizations"."

"Upon acceptance, confusion over his position suddenly emerged after statements made to the crowd chanting "a million shahids". Abbas stated, "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids," then promised to protect the "strugglers" wanted by Israel for "terrorist" attacks, and that "the little jihad has ended and now the big jihad is beginning"."

The last paragraph is taking the naughty bits and interpreting them in a non-objective way even if it has a source. It's a shame, because the rest of the article is close to feature status (IMHO). I would remove it myself but I don't want to start an edit war. Palestine-info 06:24, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Satiany should not remove "unreferenced" quotes just because they disagree with his point of view; Misplaced Pages intends to be NPOV. One of my "unreferenced" quotes had a reference CLEARLY STATED after it. Interestingly, Satiany left in a pro-Abbas quote that had NO references. Nevertheless, I have added a reference to the unferenced quote before readding both quotes.

Reverting the quote

Hmm. I think that you need to do things to include that quote. First, you need to source it to the book not to an extremely biased website. It's an unreliable source. You need to acquire the book really and see that Abbas did actually say it. I don't doubt he did -- holocaust denial is an ugly and unfortunate part of many Arabs' understanding of the world -- but I think you need to more carefully source. Second, you need to recognise that the accusation of holocaust denial is given prominence earlier in the article and that to then quote him saying exactly that in a "Quotes" section -- which would normally be memorable things that people have said (like the jihad thing, maybe), rather than pointscoring quotes from either side -- rather unbalances the article. Were you to put the reference in the earlier section, that would be much more NPOV. I won't be watching this page and I'm not interested in edit warring but I hope you will give my reasons for removing the quote due consideration. Happy editing, guys.Grace Note 03:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Holocaust Denial is Anti-Semitism

From Mahmoud Abbas: "His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, which, following his appointment as Palestinian Prime Minister in 2003, was heavily criticized as an example of Holocaust denial. In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were used for the extermination of Jews, and suggested that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was "less than a million." "

From another Talk page: Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic. Jayjg 04:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, this person should be in the category Anti-Semitism, no?--68.211.197.252 06:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. In my mind, two questions need to be resolved before he should be labeled: 1) When was his thesis written?; and, 2) Is there any indication that he has changed his tune since then? You may ask: why do these questions matter? Well... Thirty years ago, Abbas agreed to accept the existence of Israel... Perhaps he has publicly agreed to accept the tragic reality of the Holocaust as well. If he has, I think his essay should be forgiven but not forgotten.

--(Mingus ah um 02:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

Well, here's a quote from him that's in the article: "The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and nobody can claim I denied it." I'd say that's pretty unambiguous. --Delirium 20:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Him thinking that the Holocaust is terrible has nothing to do with him also believing that 'Zionists inflated Holocaust victim counts'. Holocaust denial encompasses revision of the number of victims as well, and you have not shown that he has retracted that position. What is strange about that? Tewfik 06:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You claim that he is currently a Holocaust denier. If that is true, please cite a reliable source corroborating that claim. For example, does the Anti-Defamation League consider him a Holocaust denier? Does anyone except some Misplaced Pages editors accuse him of, at the present time, being a Holocaust denier? Your personal conclusions do not constitute sufficient evidence under WP:BLP to include a potentially libelous claim in the article. --Delirium 08:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I need not claim that he is currently a holocaust denier - that he was once prominently and notably one would be sufficient, just as he will remain categorised as a Palestinian and politician even if he renounces his nationality and occupation, since he was significantly both. Regarding what the ADL, they specifically address the 2003 interview saying "no clear statement was forthcoming", while he is still included in Wyman Institute's 2004 Global Survey of Holocaust Denial (multiple mentions). I don't grant Norman Finkelstein very much weight, but on Democracy Now! he said "Abbas is an authentic Holocaust denier". Tewfik 19:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Is Raul Hilberg a Holocaust denier for tossing an (low) estimate of 5.1 million around? I too find Abbas's first statement both repugnant and factually inaccurate, but I think it cheapens the seriousness of the charge to collapse Abbas's stance with (say) Ahmadinejad's. To me, Holocaust denial is denial of the historicity of the implementation of the "Final Solution," from Wannsee to Auschwitz. Billbrock 04:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I just glanced at the Finkelstein interview on Democracy Now cited above. I'll retract my remark re Abbas--denial of the camps would make one a Holocaust denier.... Billbrock 04:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blessed martyrs

Wasn't Abu Mazen the name of the palestinian kamikaze warrior who rammed the US Marine HQ in Beirut 1983 with a bomb truck killing circa 200 gringo soldiers? 195.70.32.136 09:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but this would only mean that both Mahmoud Abbas and said individual both named their first-born son Mazen (Abu Mazen = "Father of Mazen"). Such coincidences are common in the Middle East. For more information, check Arabic name. --(Mingus ah um 01:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

"His reputation in the West"

I'm not too happy with this sentence in the introduction. It seems to be trying to reflect common assumptions in the Anglo-saxon media. I would prefer to see it removed or replaced by something more factual and sourced. Any comments? Palmiro | Talk 19:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I took a quick shot at revising the sentence, but it could still use some work. Here's the original sentence: His reputation in the West is that of a moderating influence in the Palestinian Authority.

...and here's the new one: With Hamas now in control of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas is frequently portrayed as the face of Palestinian moderation.

Perhaps we should also include something about the internal turmoil within Fatah (that is, compare Abbas to some the more radical popular leaders within his own political movement). --(Mingus ah um 02:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

Wow... Is Abbas like a member of the Bush family or WHAT?

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or step on any toes here, but it just occurred to me that even though there is only ONE mention of U.S. President George W. Bush in the entire article, there are THREE PHOTOS OF HIM here! I am not trying to be anti-Bush or pro-anyone-else here, but I think this somewhat underscores the subtle but ever-present U.S. bias in English Misplaced Pages. Abbas has met a slew of other world leaders, and talked peace with a lot of them... to photographically portray Bush as being at the forefront of this process is misleading and unnecessary. 68.12.110.233 (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

End of Abbas' Term as President?

The article says that Hamas considers Abbas' term to have ended on January 9. Does any one dispute that Abbas' term has ended on January 9, and if so, what are their views? That it ends on some other day (which one?), or that it extends indefinitely until the election of his successor (which may not happen for quite a while)? CuriousOliver (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I found some references that elaborate on the situation and edited the article accordingly. I find it interesting that so far no one responded to my question, suggesting that most find Abbas already irrelevant. CuriousOliver (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think maybe we need to distinguish between his elected term and his self-appointed term. I don't know if that'll end the slow edit war over the infobox, but that's my latest thought. -- Kendrick7 05:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it really a war? I tried to reform it as much as possible to show the disputed claims a unbiased as I could. I think we shouldn't say put 9 January 2009 as his term end because he is still in office. Even if some consider it illegal, no one can argue that he's definitely still executing his powers as president. We have several current world leaders who's terms have expired but continue as president/prime minister. I think we need to add more emphasis to the fact his term's ended in the article itself, both in a detailed section and the introductory paragraph. However, until he actually does leave office, he remains (at least in the West Bank and the eyes of the West and its allies) the incumbent president. Therequiembellishere (talk) 05:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not really a war: I only meant "edit war" as a term of art. To your points: Abbas doesn't still execute his powers over half the country (I know the West Bank looks bigger than Gaza on the map, but it is ~75% under Israeli military control, not Abbas's, so I think saying "half" is more or less a wash). If there was a royal scepter involved or something this would be an easier call -- whoever had it would be the guy in charge -- but this is a legal question and as far as I can tell the Supreme Court is out to lunch here. No surprise -- they are so low key I can't find our article about them. Israel rounded up and arrested a fair portion of the parliament so that body is paralyzed as well. But in the meantime, I don't believe Misplaced Pages should coddle dictators as a general rule (insomuchas Abbas is only still president because he has dictated it to be so). -- Kendrick7 06:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

But he has the recognition. And Duwaik certainly isn't executing any powers at all, but he's still considered president as well. And as much as I agree that dictators are abhorrent, it isn't the our job to say that. The encyclopedia is supposed to just state the facts as unbiased as we can, which comes with a large sense of detachment. Therequiembellishere (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

He doesn't have recognition under the law. I'm not sure how you are defining "powers" and in any case, former Speaker Duwaik's term expires next month anyway -- it's not like parliament is sending him any bills to sign in the meantime. Palestine has no army or navy. I agree that we should not take a POV here, but declaring Abbas as "incumbent" is doing just that. If you want to say that he is the incumbent self-appointed president since 9 January I suppose that's about right. -- Kendrick7 06:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that positioning both as incumbents and explaining the situation is NPOV enough. I think we should get other opinions on this, though. Otherwise, someone may come through the page a week or so from now and say that the two of us don't know what we're talking about. And I meant recognition by other governments in that they only deal with Fatah. Although, I'm largely unaware of Hamas' international support base. Therequiembellishere (talk) 07:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Third party opinion via RfC - Let's try and stick with reality, even if it sucks! Ask most people (except Hamas) who's the head of the PA and they'll say Abbas. I'm guessing he's also the guy who shows up the Arab League, the UN and whatnot. The lead makes it clear about how his term was renewed, the infobox should mark him as incumbent, which for better or worse is true. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Is that enough to close the discussion? Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Abu Mazen

The article doesn't explain Abbas' monicker. Thanks, Maikel (talk) 11:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

It says in the first line that its a (somestrange word), with a link to a wikipedia page that explains it. Like someone calling himself Father of Our Country. ( Martin | talk • contribs 04:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC))

Holocaust denial

Holocaust denial doesn't just consist of saying that no Jews at all died. It also includes minimizing the number of people killed. Andjam (talk) 04:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

This comes up probably once or twice a year since 2004 or so. The consensus years ago was not to add the category, because derogatory categories (like "holocaust denier" or "criminal" or "terrorist" or "murderer") should only be added for clear, unequivocal cases, where the vast majority of 3rd-party reliable sources would support inclusion and few to no sources dispute the inclusion. The article itself, of course, can provide a discussion in ways that categories, as black/white entities, can't. As for whether he should be in Category:Historians of the Holocaust, that's a closer call, but as he isn't known as a historian, I'd probably say no; I would reserve that category for full-time historians who are known for their work in the field of Holocaust history, not everyone who has ever written anything on the subject. --Delirium (talk) 05:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Where did this consensus arise? Was it on this talk page, or somewhere else? Andjam (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What does name mean?

What does "Abu Mazen" mean? This should be added to the article. Badagnani (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

why the gap between 1961-1990? What was he doing for those years?

Other than the lack of mentioning his holocaust denial (he claimed fewer than 1 million died!), There are 2 shady things about the locked article:

Why is there an obvious gap in abu mazen's biography between the 1960s & 1990's?

Wasn't he involved in the 1972 Munich massacre of Israelis & American David Berger? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.61.218.70 (talk) 07:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

proposal to add facts of Abbas' involvement in Munich massacre

This is from the Misplaced Pages page on the 1972 Munich massacre. It should be added to fill the large 3 decade gap in the abbas biography:

Abu Daoud, now in his seventies, writes that funds for Munich were provided by Mahmoud Abbas. Though he claims he didn’t know what the money was being spent for, longtime Fatah official Mahmoud Abbas, aka Abu Mazen, was responsible for the financing of the Munich attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.236.83.144 (talk) 00:01, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

BLP violations

WND is not a reliable source and repeatedly reinserting it, while removing information about the incident from an actual reliable source, is not acceptable in a BLP. nableezy - 01:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Other sources currently cited in the article which do not meet the criteria for statement of fact in BLP:

Arutz Sheva/Israel National News:- current citations No.22, No.24(dead link).
Memri:- citation No. 21

Dlv999 (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The mandate as expired long ago

The last date proposed for the next presidential elections (June 28th) is about to pass by without notice... is it correct from now on to call Abass a de facto president? Againme (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The Abductions of Jaweed Al-Ghussein

Jaweed Al-Ghussein former elected Chairman of the Palestine National Fund (PNF) was kidnapped from Abu Dhabi with the collusion of Mahmoud Abbas and illegally held hostage for 16 months in Gaza. Al Ghussein Minister of Justice Freh Abu Mediane resigned and publicly protested at this illegal incarceration and it was denounced by the late Haider Abdel Shafi as a blatant abuse of power. Al Ghussein had been calling for transparency accountability and rule of law. The case was taken up by the Palestinian commission on Citizens Rights (PCCR) were Attorney General Soranai conceded that there was no legitimate reason for Al-Ghusseins house arrest. The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary detention appointed a Special Rapporteur on torture requested the immediate release of Al-Ghussein and placed him in their highest category Mounting international pressure and the mediation of Canon Andrew White, Special envoy of the middle East to Lord George Carey Archbishop of Canterbury.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/2236709/Jaweed-al-Ghussein.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/11/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast http://www.ncfpeace.org/drupal/node/310

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/7B874EAB39CFFE5D85256E6F004B90D3

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/wgad/31-2001.html http://services.parliament.uk/hansard/Lords/ByDate/20091110/mainchamberdebates/contents.html

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=310704&sectioncode=26 Unsigned by: 11:58, May 31, 2011 User:Namiba

Let's update

Watching his speech at UN beginning, I took a quick look here and can see this article needs updating, among other things... CarolMooreDC 16:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

"I will never allow a single Israeli to live among us on Palestinian land"

This quote, which has been making the rounds at pro-Israel rallies and all over pro-Israel blogs and websites (albeit in different words depending on the source) is currently sourced to Arutz Sheva a.k.a. Israel National News. A7 is a far-right news agency run by religious West Bank settlers, its target audience being the same. I wouldn't regard A7 as a "reliable source". By contrast, I would regard as reliable anything from Ha'aretz, the Jerusalem Post, Maariv, etc. -- Yedioth Ahronoth is somewhere between the Post and A7 in my view. I've been looking for the original source for this quote for a while. Allegedly, Abbas said something along the lines of the attributed quote in Cairo on July 28 2010, according to the A7 article and to an opinion piece at the Jewish Chronicle, though Caroline Glick, in an op-ed for the Jerusalem Post, has him saying it at an Arab League summit in Qatar on May 28 2011. Geoffrey Alderman, in his Jewish Chronicle column, sources the quote to Wafa, the official PA news agency, but says that Wafa removed it, and I can't find it on the English-language Wafa either. Alderman also claims that he "understand that, in any case, some Arabic newspapers, such as Al-Quds" also quoted Abbas saying something similar, but there is no evidence of this given either. In my opinion, this is looking more and more like a fabricated quote, but my opinion about its authenticity doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it should be in this Misplaced Pages article. I am concerned about the lack of a reliable source, however. I'd appreciate some help in tracing the claim that Abbas said something to the effect that, in his vision, a Palestinian state should not allow Jews to live in it. If an RS can't be found, I'm inclined to remove the quote from this article. Conversely, if people believe that Arutz Sheva meets the requirements of a "reliable source", then we should discuss that here. BostonFenian (talk) 05:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Netanyahu: Abbas speech on Jerusalem was 'incitement'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-abbas-speech-on-jerusalem-was-incitement-1.414941?localLinksEnabled=false

Do we have a better source on this? Hcobb (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Abbas' work for Palestinians

There isn't a single section on this article or on Abbas about his work head of Palestinian Authority for the Palestinians. The only sections about his work as Palestinian leader focus on relations with Israel and foreign relations. Abbas also has to manage a population - his job doesn't just deal with the peace process or foreign relations. I strongly believe we should work together on adding such a section, and otherwise creating articles for the information or adding to existing articles (many articles on these subjects haven't been created yet, which takes time, and some just don't seem to fit in another article or to create one). The section can include:

Improvements he made for Palestinians
Fatah-Hamas reconcilation (briefly, I believe there is another article on it)
Support for Abbas vs Hamas vs Barghouti in the polls
Criticism by Palestinians
Handling of crises such as financial crisis, fuel crisis
Corruption, threats against other Palestinians
Prison sentences, law enforcement (such as a recent crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank)
Recent anti-Oslo rallies which grew into anti-police brutality and anti-P.A. rallies

Let me know how others feel about this. --Activism1234 22:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Nothing controversial about this, you should feel free to expand on the subject. Be BOLD! I don't have much interest in this article in particular as I've set my sights elsewhere for the time being, but I might lend a hand sometime in the future. Just to note, there should also be a bit about the recent proposal set in the Doha Agreement that Abbas head the proposed technocrat-based government in addition to the presidency until new parliamentary and presidential elections are held. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I'm going to give it some more time to give people a chance to respond, and then I'll start working on it gradually (and anyone else who wants to help). If anyone wants to add more info or items we should include, as Al Ameer did, feel free to do so. What I listed is just a general guideline of what such a section can include. --Activism1234 23:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

BLP violation

Shrike, that last edit you made is a BLP violation as it distorts what Abbas actually said. The full interview is here (uploaded by the TV station, not a copyvio). The editing that MEMRI performed so blatantly takes what Abbas said out of context that I cannot believe that anybody can, in good faith, claim what was written faithfully represents what he said. Yes, he did say he will not recognize a "Jewish state". He also said "I recognize Israel", and he said that it isnt his business what Israel calls itself and that Netanyahu is free to say what he wishes. I translated the relevant portion of the interview (from around the 7 minute mark to 9:13), and I'll post it when I get home. But that edit should be reverted, and I may do so later tonight. nableezy - 17:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is the translation, without the highly selective editing brought to us by MEMRI:

Mona: But what I know is that Netanyahu's speach at the UN, which came right after your speech, did not have any indication of any hope or even probability for any negotiotion. I also know that you have left right after you finished your speech, and you did not wait for his speech, and you even left New York a few hours after that.

Abbas: I heard the speach

Mona: The whole world has heard it, Abu Mazen . And everything in his speech did not indicate that Israel will fulfill any of its promises to you or to any international agreements that they signed. The man used one expression, and said it openly: "the Jewish state, and I emphasize the Jewish state". He said "we offer peace, and they reject it. 63 years", instead of occupation, he says "63 years of offering peace". He accused everyone, Palestinians and the rest of the world, as being the enemies of peace. And he said that Israel is the only one that seeks peace. This is a speech that does not indicate any hope or indication of negotations.

Abbas (8:10): First, to remove from the table, the story of the Jewish state. The Jewish state was proposed to me only two years ago. And they discussed this with me in every place and every occasion I go to. They ask me, are there Jews or not? They also asked me what is my opinion on the "Jewish state". And I said my opinion, and I am repeating here. I will not accept the idea of a Jewish state, or a state that is Jewish.

Mona: He said it twice.

Abbas: This is my opinion, but he can say what he wants to. But I will not accept it. I recognize the state of Israel, and this recognition is based on the mutual exchange between Arafat and Rabin, and God bless both their souls. Other than this, I have nothing to say. I will not accept more than recognizing the state of Israel. And they have to recognize the PLO, the only representative of the Palestinian people. And that is enough. And they say this on more than one occasion, the Palestinian state, and some times they deny it, and some times they acknowledge it.

nableezy - 05:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The interview was reported by WP:RS so it make it notable if there other translations that WP:RS report you welcome to add it to the article.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

That doesnt, in any way, address the BLP violation of taking a phrase completely out of context to give it a more radical meaning that it actually has. This isnt a game of acronyms prepended by WP:. He said, immediately following the out of context quote you chose to highlight, I recognize the state of Israel. He later says, effectively, that Netanyahu can call it a Jewish state if he wants to, but that he recognizes Israel and that as far as is necessary. He has also said, on other occasions, that it isnt the issue of Israel calling itself a "Jewish state" has nothing to do with him. You cant take out of context quotes to distort a persons stated views. Thats what your edit did. nableezy - 07:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't distort anything I report only what WP:RS report with proper attribution according per WP:NPOV--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 07:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I just gave you the translation of, and a link to, the actual interview. Are you really going to say that the snippet quoted adequately expresses his views on the subject? nableezy - 07:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not about your version WP:TRUTH but about verifiability more over his refusal to recognize jewish nature of Israel is well documented --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 08:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I think cases like this are interesting and probably worth taking to BLPN because they seem to be within scope of Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use, Section 4 "Refraining from Certain Activities" which sets out what is not allowed (see here). One of those things is "Engaging in False Statements" i.e. we are obliged to carefully avoid deceiving readers. It's not always clear how to do that. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

But even in Nableezy translation he said that he will not recognize so I don't understand what the problem really?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 09:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the issue is that while sources are free to use the half-truth propaganda technique, we are not because we are writing an encyclopedia. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Could you please explain what is the half truth?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 09:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you see the difference between the following 2 pieces of information in terms of the extent of the facts, Abbas' truth, they both contain ?

MEMRI - "I will never recognize the Jewishness of the state, or a 'Jewish state.'"
nableezy's transcript - "I will not accept the idea of a Jewish state, or a state that is Jewish." + "I recognize the state of Israel, and this recognition is based on the mutual exchange between Arafat and Rabin" + "I will not accept more than recognizing the state of Israel."

One in effect says, "I will not recognize X as an ethnoreligious based state", while the other says "I will not recognize X as an ethnoreligious based state but I do recognize X as a sovereign state as mutually agreed". They are quite different in terms of the information the convey about Abbas' view. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

We can add this to the article and link youtube interview as user translation are allowed too.Then the problem could be solved?

Could you also translate the part about Gilad Shalit? Because the sections have two parts.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 08:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Why should I spend my time on that? That should be removed on the basis that it has nothing to do with his "relations with Israel". nableezy - 16:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Kidnapping Israeli soldiers has nothing to do with "relations with Israel"?--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 16:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Mahmoud Abbas "kidnapped" any soldiers. He said it was a good thing that Hamas captured the soldier, but that doesnt change that armed resistance will not liberate Palestine as the Palestinians do not have the capabilities to compete with Israel in strength of arms. In that section of the interview (and this is from memory, so not word-for-word) he is remarking about how the Palestinian cannot win their freedom with force. He said something like We are always with peaceful, popular resistance. But the armed resistance will not accomplish our goals. I can translate it later, I just dont see the point of spending the time necessary to do that when it shouldnt even be a part of the article. nableezy - 16:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

This should be removed as a relatively straight forward distortion of what Abbas actually said. But there are so many problems with that section that I dont even know where to start. Half of it has nothing to do with his relations with Israel, and the other half is based on sources that dont actually discuss his relations with Israel. Using secondary sources to write an article doesnt just mean finding a newspaper that carried a quote, it means finding sources that discuss what you are writing about. The thought of fixing the problems honestly isnt all that appealing to me, given the rather obvious obstacles that will invariably be thrown up. nableezy - 04:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nableezy, not getting into the actual BLP stuff but the other aspects of "Relations with Israel," stuff like "On 16 January 2006, Abbas said that he would not run for office again at the end of his current term" definitely aren't relevant to the section, and should be moved (not deleted) to another section (either existing or a new one). I don't find those types of edits to be controversial and don't expect they will be (but other types of edits will definitely be controversial). --Activism1234 05:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Clarification: Whether you want to do this or not is up to you, if I get a chance I'd do as much as I can, since stuff like that really is a mess and makes it tough to find what you need in the article. But I can see, just based on how so many edits get talk discussions and back-and-forth arguments, how other types of edits would be considered controversial and objected to. --Activism1234 05:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

How on earth does adding links to places that copy MEMRI's claim make that claim more reliable? It is ridiculous. Nableezy's case that this is BLP violation is watertight. And this is yet another reason why MEMRI should not be treated as a reliable source. What Abbas said is exactly the same thing as he has been saying for several years, for example here. Deleting the clear distinction between "Jewish State" and "Israel" is the sort of trick MEMRI gets up to, but we have no excuse. Zero 13:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The material was restored on the basis that MEMRI is an RS which misses the point. I removed it again. It can stay out until BLP concerns are addressed properly. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of which, editors are reminded of WP:BLP#Restoring deleted content: When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Misplaced Pages's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. nableezy - 19:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Would you accept in that he willing to "recognize Israel but not the its Jewish character" based on Haaretz source--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

No, because that implies that Israel has a "Jewish character". nableezy - 20:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

And he isnt "willing" to recognize Israel, he has recognized Israel. nableezy - 20:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

UN non-member state status for Palestine. Vote expected in November 2012

I don't see this 2012 United Nations info linked below discussed in the article. Nor do I see the 2011 efforts by Abbas at the UN to get full membership discussed in the article. See: Palestine 194.

See:

Palestine to seek UN non-Member State status, Abbas tells General Assembly debate. United Nations News Centre. Sept. 27, 2012 article.
Palestine seeks UN non-member status. September 27, 2012. By SAPA (South African Press Association). --Timeshifter (talk) 04:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 April 2013

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Since 27 april 2013 he has the honorary citizen by the city of Naples. 95.239.50.207 (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: I don't believe this recognition is notable enough to be included in the article. There are a great many famous people out there who have been made honorary members of organizations, honorary citizens of their hometowns or other cities, etc, etc. All such articles would be quickly overloaded. --ElHef (Meep ?) 03:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 September 2013

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President of State of Palestine is not a real position as there is not currently a state of Palestine. I don't think Wiki represents (intentionally) the spread of misleading information. I have made the edit two times and someone has continuously tried to start a debate which is not what the article is for. Avi1231 (talk) 08:21, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Content isn't going to be changed based on what you personally believe is real/unreal/existent/nonexistent. Perhaps you should read the State of Palestine article. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2013

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Formatting "Relations with Israel" and "Relations with foreign leaders" should be their own sections and not a subsection of "Corruption allegations" 98.255.2.193 (talk) 02:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Done Thanks for spotting that. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:05, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Improve "Relations with Israel" subheading

I am new to editing wikipedia, and up to now have limited myself to copy-editing, but I was wondering what the procedure is to actively add to articles. One thing I have noticed is that in the "Relations with Israel" sub-heading, there are several one-sentence paragraphs that do not seem to indicate why they are relevant to the overall narrative of Abbas's relationship with Israel. The sentence/paragraph, "On 25 May, Abbas gave Hamas a ten-day deadline to accept the 1967 ceasefire lines," is an especially good example of this. Since I'm not that knowledgable on the subject matter, I'm hesitant to add things myself, but I was wondering if anyone else felt like this needed some clarification and if they would be willing to make these changes. If people think it's a valid addition but don't want to do it themselves, I am happy to do some research and clarify a little. Michael.holper628 (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Confusion with another Abbas

In May, Averroes1 removed a paragraph from here as it was about Muhammad Zaidan (Abu Abbas or Muhammad Abbas). Now Averysoda has restored a part about that. Don't you see it is about another person who was Palestinian and called Muhammad Abbas? What did you think was solved by keeping (though rewording one word) that Mahmoud Abbas "In 1985, he temporarily went into hiding in Yugoslavia upon avoiding international justice mechanisms in Rome, Italy" but removing "which arose from his alleged involvement with the Achille Lauro hijacking"? --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If the source was talking about Muhammad Zaidan, I made a mistake. I didn't know that. Some Arabic war names look alike.--Averysoda (talk) 20:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If you look in the article, it is clear who it is about. Why return sensitive text in a WP:BLP in a hotly disputed topic like Israel and Palestine when you are not sure? It is also remarkable that you didn't revert yourself now that you have gotten another answer that this is a confusion with another Abbas. --IRISZOOM (talk) 07:09, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I have removed it now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:00, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

President of what?

Surely the opening statement "Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the State of Palestine" is grossly propagandist? Firstly because there is no "state of Palestine," secondly because he was elected in 2005 as President of the PA, not "president of Palestine," and thirdly because since 2009 he has had no mandate to be president of anything. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 04:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

As head of the PLO he also holds the office of President of the state declared in 1988 and recognized as a state by well over 100 other states. nableezy - 15:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

"Palestine" is not a sovereign state and its institutions of government exist only by courtesy of the Olso Accords, which created the position of "President of the PA", not "President of Palestine." Abbas was elected to that position in 2005, and his term ended in 2009. He is therefore at best a de facto President of the PA. The article should state the facts, not propaganda. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 23:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Even Chairman of the PNA :) --Igorp_lj (talk) 15:45, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Ahmed Manasra

The incident about Ahmed Manasra is a bit of historical trivia that fails WP:UNDUE by a large margin. Abbas had his facts wrong and Bibi scored a propaganda point from it. It had no lasting significance whatever and does not belong in this article. Zero 00:01, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

No archive?

This talk page needs cleaning up. --Qualitatis (talk) 10:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Abbas and Olmert

Compare the report of the disreputable Arutz 7 settler newspaper and the report of the reputable news organization Jewish Telegraphic News, and the report of the international news agency Associated Press. A7 does not even mention the explanation that Abbas gave for rejecting Olmert's offer. Abbas said that Olmert refused to give him a copy of the map, but A7 wrote "Olmert presented him with a map". This is yet one more proof that A7 is unreliable, to add to the dozens of previous proofs. Zero 08:00, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

So what? Both accounts (the JTA report is based on the AP one, no need to list it as if it was a separate story) agree on the basic news elements of the story - Olmert made an unprecedented offer, Abbas rejected it, and this is the first time Abbas admits it. The AP chose to highlight Abbas' excuse- that he wasn't given a copy of the map to keep, while A7 chose to emphasis the "out of hand" rejection (which exposes the excuse for what it was - an excuse). The stories do not contradict each other, and there's no reason not to include both sources, with both aspects that were ignored, respectively in each story. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 03:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It is not about what they chose to emphasize. Arutz Sheva didn't mention at all why Abbas rejected the offer. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I saw that and just by looking at Arutz Sheva's title, you know something is missing if you have read reports from other media sources about this. Reading the article makes it clear they are leaving out Abbas' explanation and his explanation has actually been known for years.

There is no understandable reason to use this source when there are several good sources writing about Ehud Olmert's and Mahmoud Abbas' interview. Of course, if you want to make it look like the Palestinians are not interested in peace, like this settler newspaper does, then the article is perfect. --IRISZOOM (talk) 02:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

You're funny. The AP report you cite so approvingly says this is the first time Abbas has said that - but you think it was supposedly " been known for years.". So either you don;t know what you are talking about, or the AP story is not quite as credible as you make it to be. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

All I am saying is that unlike Arutz Sheva, good media sources like AP gives the very relevant explanation from Mahmoud Abbas. Yes, it has been known for years, though it is in the news once again after the recent interview with Olmert and Abbas about their peace negotiations. So yes, AP is very credible and in a whole other class than the settler newspaper, and what I said is true. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

You think it's relevant, others (e.g A7) think it is an irrelevant excuse, since he admitted he rejected it "out of hand" (Something that the AP story omits). I don;t know if you are right or A7 is right, what's the problem with including the complete story? And no, it can't be both that you are right, and Abbas's story has been known for years, and at the same time the AP story which said this is the first time he's given that explanation is credible. It's one or the other. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 04:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It is not a choice between what I and Arutz Sheva think is relevant. They choose to ignore Abbas' explanation, which credible media organizations like AP don't. Combining one worthless source and one good source doesn't give the "complete story".

I really don't care about your personal opinions. AP is a serious organization unlike the settler newspaper Arutz Sheva and this is another clear example of that. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:25, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Your reasoning here is circular. There are two stories: AP and A7. They agree on the basic facts, but A7 omits one detail (Abbas' excuse for why he rejected the offer) and AP omits another detail (that before offering the excuse, Abbas admitted he rejected the offer "out of hand") . You use the difference as "proof" that AP is reliable and A7 is not, when the argument could be flipped around to show AP is not reliable. And none of this has "my opinion" in it. Three's no reason to use both sources to get the full picture. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

You say so because Abbas' explanation is just an "excuse" for you, which is more clearly seen at your comment above about "which exposes the excuse for what it was - an excuse". --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)\

Here is the coverage of the story from Council on Foreign Relations- , which is essentially the same as the A7 story (emphasis on the rejection out of hand, no mention of the 'wasn't given the map' excuse) . So what now? Is CoFR also an unreliable source? Or maybe it's time to admit that no source is unbiased - including AP - and if we want to get the full picture, we need to use both? That's Misplaced Pages policy , by the way. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 04:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, it wasn't about what AP and Arutz Sheva chose to "emphasize" but rather that Abbas' explanation was omitted in A7's article. There are hundreds of articles about the interview and I'm not arguing about using other sources, just that A7 is unreliable and there is no reason to include them (especially when there are many other sources about the negotiations). By the way, several years ago Saeb Erekat said the Palestinians made a counter-offer to Olmert. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

and the AP story omitted Abbas' statement that he rejected the story out of hand. and both a7 and AP omitted his other explanations (that he is not an expert on maps, or that Olmert was going to be convicted of corruption) as given by this JC story (http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/149618/abbas-admits-rejecting-ehud-olmerts-peace-offer). The point is, you can't use a newspaper's omission of this detail or that detail as a measure of its reliability . When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 03:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Arutz Sheva isnt a reliable source, all this other noise is irrelevant. nableezy - 04:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

~~well thank you for that assertion. Now, do you have something that actually backs it up with Misplaced Pages policy? When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)~~

Arutz 7 seems to have quite a large staff. Where was it decided they are not a RS? Debresser (talk) 16:51, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

West Bank

As the lead for the Ramallah article says, "Ramallah ... is a Palestinian city in the central West Bank." Misplaced Pages's voice should not say that it is in the State of Palestine in Abbas's infobox. I intend on restoring the words "West Bank" unless somebody comes up with a reasonable argument why I should not. --GHcool (talk) 19:52, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

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WP:RECENTISM

This is a biography of somebody, it is not a repository for anything that is recently in the news. If and when this one speech becomes an important part of Mr Abbas' life then we should include it. Otherwise we should avoid adding the flavor of the day to the article. nableezy - 16:37, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I think you got the wrong idea here. Misplaced Pages isn't about what is important in Abbas' life, but what reliable sources say about him.

I agree that there is always the danger of recentism when writing about living people. However, as you can see at WP:RECENTISM, that is not a bad thing, and many interesting section and articles have come out of it.

Removing this paragraph is too extreme a measure IMHO. I think that one paragraph is fine for the moment. Perhaps in a few years it will turn out to be worth only one sentence, perhaps not, but removing it altogether is not the correct path of action, in my opinion. A {{Recentism}} tag can be added, if authors so like. Debresser (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

This is a biography, right? This isnt an article on Abbas' views on Rabbis, wells, poisoning, well-poisoning, or blood libel, right? You would have a single speech he gave in a political career spanning some 60 years now take up about 10% of this article? Every little thing that gets picked up in the news does not belong in a biography. If this turns out to be an important event then we can always include it. But as of now, it is a news coverage blip that doesnt merit any mention at all. nableezy - 21:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Wrong again. An article about a politician should definitely include a section on his views, a section on controversies, and the like. Debresser (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Please try to stick to the conversation which is, should every news article about a politician be added to their articles? The answer is no. Sepsis II (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Don't be stupid. That is not the issue. That is not an issue at all, as a matter of fact. The issue is much more specific. Should the statement made by Abbas in front of the EU parliament be part of this article? I think it should, as being part of his views or as being a controversy related to him. I am not blind to recentism arguments, but think this is part of the process of writing a balanced article. Debresser (talk) 12:50, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

It should not be included because not every news article about a politician should be added to their articles. Don't call editors stupid or assholes, even indirectly. Sepsis II (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

It might not be the issue to you, it very obviously is the issue to others. So, try not to be stupid and assume you know how others think. nableezy - 14:38, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I will call stupid any editor who tries do deflect the conversation from the issue to try and made a point. The issue is not general, because there is no disagreement on the general issue. The only disagreement is regarding this specific case, and attempts to deflect from it are only disruptive, and will simply be archived as not pertaining to the discussion. Debresser (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Where exactly do you get off deciding to hide an editors response to you? Don't do that again, it's incredibly disrespectful to hide away somebody's response to you as unrelated. You don't set the terms of discussion here, sorry. You want to ignore something that's fine, calling them stupid and collapsing their comments is not however something you can do, or at least it's not something you can do without being reverted and if it is repeated reported. nableezy - 21:05, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

It is equally disrespectful to try to move the discussion into unimportant directions, claiming the issue is what it isn't. Debresser (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

In view of the block imposed by 2 editors, and the evasion of the underlying real issue, I have asked for dispute resolution at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Mahmoud_Abbas.23WP:RECENTISM. Debresser (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I saw this listed at DRN and, though I work there I don't want to become involved in a drawn-out mediation of this issue. I will, however, give you what amounts to a neutral Third Opinion on the matter. Like many things here, I don't think that there's a black or white answer to this one. I do think that the length and detail at which this matter was treated in its most recent version gives it undue weight in an article about the entire life of Abbas, especially when set off in its own section and having a "further information" link. It also gives me some concern about original research by implication, i.e. being included to invite readers to draw conclusions about Abbas which aren't expressly stated in the sources, though that concern is somewhat cured by the inclusion of the blood libel statement. In short, if this was restricted to one or, at the most, two sentences and included at the foot of some other section (most likely the "Relations with Israel" section) with no further information link, I probably wouldn't have much objection to it. Here's a suggestion, "On June 26, 2016, Abbas retracted as unfounded a statement he had made on June 23 in a speech before the European Parliament that rabbis in Israel were calling on the Israeli government to poison the wells of Palestinians. Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Abbas' statement spread a blood libel. " Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Not opposed to that. I dont think it merits coverage but thats fine by me. nableezy - 03:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

That is acceptable to me as well. Debresser (talk) 11:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there is a need for the second sentence, the first is enough. Sepsis II (talk) 17:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Since the attempt at moderation failed, and since the information is well sourced, relevant, notable, etc., I have restored it. The claim that it is undue is incorrect, since it is only a rather short paragraph, not 10% of the article at all without the sources. The claim that it is recentism is not a sufficient reason to remove text, apart from the fact that I believe it to be incorrect. Rather the information sheds light on certain controversial opinions of this politician. Attempts to censor Misplaced Pages should not be condoned. Debresser (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

The one outside opinion offered agreed this was undue weight. But you get to just say thats incorrect and ignore it? Im reverting the revert that you know full well you dont have consensus for and what several editors have faulted as a policy violation. nableezy - 23:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

You have reverted, and will be reverted again. The only outside opinion suggested that something a bit shorter might be appropriate. Your main objection is recentism, which opinion was not shared by that outside opinion, and in any case is not in itself a reason to remove information (especially well-sourced). You need more than the concurring opinions of two editors who want to censor this article about their beloved leader to remove sourced and relevant information. Feel free to tag is as undue and get consensus for the need to shorten it, or even shorten it yourself, but you are not allowed to remove it altogether. That is against guidelines, see WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM. Debresser (talk) 16:23, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Not allowed? Funny. You dont make the rules here, and WP:ONUS is fairly clear on who is not allowed to revert to include disputed material. My beloved leader? Are you off your meds or something? I dont even like Abbas, Im not Palestinian, and I dont live in the Palestinian territories. He is not my, beloved, or leader. You are required to get consensus for disputed material, not the other way around. Revert again and to AE we go. 3-1 opposed to your massively undue separate section with 10% of an article dedicated to one speech, and everybody else is the problem. Get off it. nableezy - 17:07, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

When I offer a third opinion, I generally just walk away from any further discussion and absolutely do not edit the article so as to avoid being seen as partisan. But things here seem to have fallen apart after everyone agreed on a solution. I will, therefore, be happy to implement the solution I suggested above if it will end this. I'll have to go back to pick out the sources — one will be the New York Times source, but I will have to decide whether another and, if so, which one is needed — but I will only do this if you will both agree here to allow me to do so and stop the back and forth. No discussion, please, just an "I agree" or "I disagree" from each of you. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree. At least for the time being. With no promise that I won't add more information or details if sources will continue to discuss this information and its ramifications. Debresser (talk) 16:49, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Not with the above comment. Debresser has a habit of attempting to sneak an edit in and then claiming that it has consensus a day later. If Debresser agrees to leave it as you suggested Im fine, but with the above comment no from me. nableezy - 17:08, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear that Nableezy is not willing to reach a compromise based on his own lies. Debresser (talk) 17:42, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Lies? Exactly that happened here, where you claimed an edit you made two days past was consensus and any change to it violated consensus. You routinely do that, sneak an edit in and when it is objected to claim it has consensus. You can call that a lie if you want, I just call it the unpleasurable and mundane experience of working with you. Im fine with the compromise, but if you intend to just use that to restore your mess of undue section as your comment makes apparent then no I dont support it. None of that is a lie. Toodles, nableezy - 17:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to join this pissing contest, but I'll aim straight at TransporterMan's proposal and suggest a modification. To recall, it was: "On June 26, 2016, Abbas retracted as unfounded a statement he had made on June 23 in a speech before the European Parliament that rabbis in Israel were calling on the Israeli government to poison the wells of Palestinians. Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Abbas' statement spread a blood libel." I comment: (1) The second sentence doesn't add anything, as everyone knows that Netanyahu will say that. (2) The first sentence leaves readers to infer that Abbas made up the claim himself, but actually he was repeating a false press report. There is no reason to doubt that Abbas retracted the statement as soon as he knew it was not true. (Note that a counterclaim that it wasn't true doesn't count as a disproof since such counterclaims would be made whether it was true or not.) So I propose text as follows, with one or two high-quality references: "On June 23, 2016, Abbas repeated to the European Parliament a false press report that rabbis in Israel were calling for Palestinian wells to be poisoned. Abbas retracted the statement three days later, acknowledging that the claim was not true and stating that he 'didn't intend to do harm to Judaism or to offend Jewish people around the world'." Zero 04:06, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Zero0000's suggestion seems reasonable Drsmoo (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Debresser, do you have any idea what Misplaced Pages's policy on living persons is? Why are you restoring sources such as an editorial in American Thinker or some random person on The Commentator (I dont even know what that site is supposed to be)? Are you even a little bit familiar with the quality of those sources? nableezy - 23:03, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

And if you will pay attention to the articles you are editing you can see that you for some mystical reason inserted disjointedly in the middle of the material that covers properly what youre trying to include. It says his thesis (1982 not 1983) said at most 800k or so Jews died. Why are inserting crap editorials in crap publications to say exactly the same thing except in a crappier way? nableezy - 23:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There were 3 sources: http://nationalinterest.org/, The American Thinker and thecommentator.com. The American Thinker seems to have an editorial board. The other two websites seem to be one or two-man initiatives, so I agree they are not the best of sources.

If he says 800k that means he denies 6m. So what is wrong with that statement?

The following impeccable source quotes the book as saying "only a few hundred thousand".

The following source quotes his book "the number of Jewish victims numbered in the hundreds of thousands". I am not sure how reliable they are, but I think that for a simple quote they can be relied on.

So why do you say he said 800k?

The statement that according to his dissertation the Holocaust was a fantasy and a lie, and that only 890k Jews were killed can be reliable sourced as well. And this book by historian and journalist Jeremy Havardi.

In short, there are good sources, and I will add them, and you will stop censoring this article. Debresser (talk) 16:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

It already covered genius. What dont you get about that? It already says what you want it to say, just not so hysterically that it repeats itself every two sentences. Why do you insist on making articles utter crap? And if you want to make directives, try this one on for size. WP:ONUS. You need consensus to add disputed material, and if you continue to violate that, in a BLP of all places, I will seek sanctions against you. nableezy - 17:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I can not be blamed if you removed sourced material without good reason. That is disruption. I comply with the onus by providing sources and using neutral language. Good luck in seeking sanctions, if you must. It am waiting for the day they will boomerang against you and your POV will finally be condemned by this community. Debresser (talk) 17:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Click on the link and read WP:ONUS. Then try to consider whether or not your comment has absolutely anything to do with it. My POV, lol. Sure. nableezy - 17:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

You can play your games in ARBPIA, but BLP is more serious, keep away from any questionable sources, opinion pieces, etc. Sepsis II (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Instead of calling me "genius" or accusing me of "playing games", please be so kind to state precisely what sources you think should be removed and what statements have been repeated and where. Out of hand reverts will be reported. WP:DISCUSS, don't WP:EDITWAR. Debresser (talk) 23:05, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Noticeboard

Please see Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Mahmoud_Abbas. Debresser (talk) 23:21, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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