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Lawn maintenance

-- putting this old thread back on my talk page to remind myself to work on this SemanticMantis (talk) 19:09, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Please express your thoughts on the disadvantages of lawn care as it is practiced in the United States. My request is a response to your invitation at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Lawn maintenance at 16:48, 4 June 2014. (I am adding your talk page to my watchlist.)
—Wavelength (talk) 19:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Wavelength, thanks for your interest! I am an ecologist, specializing in theoretical plant ecology, and turf lawns are something I've thought about quite a bit. I don't usually appeal to my own authority on WP, but I thought it would save time to let you know that I know what I'm talking about. Of course I'll be happy supply refs for any subclaims if you'd like. So, without much organization, I'll throw out my thoughts, and see what parts you're interested in.

• Most people on the USA that own houses have turf lawns, mostly because that's what it came with, and that's all they know. Many of them spend money on fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides. Fertilizers take an enormous amount of energy to produce, through the Haber process. Then, they are often over applied, and runoff fertilizer is very bad for all of our natural ecosystems, but especially for streams, e.g. eutrophication. Herbicides applied to lawns are usually selective, in that they don't kill turf grass, but they also have their own ecological problems Herbicide#Ecological_effects.

• Ok, but what about people who don't use fertilizers and herbicides? They still usually have a monoculture of grass, often a type that is an invasive species, or of a type that is not well adapted to local conditions. For example Kentucky bluegrass is beautiful, but it is silly to grow it in most states, because it needs extra water that native species don't. In the south, there are many bermuda grass lawns, which don't provide any resources for the local fauna. So, monocultures are generally bad, and we've replaced huge swaths of our formerly diverse suburban and rural acreage with one type of plant. Insects, birds, amphibians, and many other animals are thus displaced.

• What if I don't care about insects and birds? (I'll even ignore how human society depends upon biodiversity and ecosystem services) Well, huge chunks of the country are naturally arid, (CA, TX, AZ, NV, etc) and simply cannot support a turf lawn without irrigation. Using potable water on grass is just silly, but millions do it anyway, even when they live in deserts, and are facing water shortages in the near future.

• But I don't irrigate my lawn-- well, then we come to gas mowers, which in my opinion totally ruin my weekends. Even if I don't have to mess around with an expensive machine and breath its exhaust in the hot sun, I'm annoyed by all my neighbors doing it. And of course in addition to noise pollution, there are lots of other pollutants they emit as well. 4-stroke mowers aren't all that terrible, but 2-stroke weed wackers are amazingly polluting, as are most leaf blowers. By some measures, they are worse than an SUV, see e.g. String_trimmer#Power_and_emissions. So I use a Fiskars push reel mower, which I'm rather happy with.

• After all this, I conclude the prevalence of massive turf lawns in the USA is just bad for our society. Especially the way they are commonly cared for, and in many cases, they are not even used much! I feel totally different about it if e.g. someone has many children, or grandchildren who need space to play, or if one wants space for a game of croquet or badminton. I spend tons of time in my yard... but I have many neighbors with giant lawns that never seem to use them! But we keep them, just because of a sort of cultural momentum, and thinking it's "normal", and fearing what our neighbors would think, and not knowing what else to do.

• So, what are the alternatives? There are several, depending on the biome you live in, and what needs you have for the yard. E.g. if I lived in the band from eastern CO to western PA, and I didn't have much need for lawn play, I'd install a prairie. If I lived in CA or AZ, I'd do some sort of xeriscaping. Another key thing is that many nice urban/suburban neighborhoods have nice big trees. And here's a key concept: Trees and grasses generally don't live together, they require different environmental conditions. So, trying to get trees and grass to coexist is just ecologically unsound in a household setting (it can happen in nature, but it usually needs a frequent fire regime). So for big chunks of the USA, having a nice tree canopy, with shade-tolerant groundcover underneath is a nice solution: It takes no water, mowing or fertilizers, and will tolerate a bit of foot traffic. Of course, none of the alternatives are truly maintenance free, but they can be much lower maintenance than turf lawns, and are almost always ecologically superior if you do a little research.

Anyway, there's some of the key points that I'm happy to proselytize on :) As for my personal life, I can't practice everything I preach. I rent in TX, so I can't just convert my whole yard to non-turf. But I do use the push mower, and I've removed lots of turf around trees, and turned them into ornamental beds. This way, at least I have less grass to tend to, and use less water than if it were all grass. If you'd like some specific information on turf alternatives that might be good for your needs, just tell me roughly where you live and how much traffic/play you expect. Cheers, SemanticMantis (talk) 21:10, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your generous reply, which I have read in its entirety. All of it interests me, and I propose that the information be covered in Misplaced Pages, if it is not already. Of course, it would be with a neutral presentation of views. Here is a link to Category:Landscape. Here is a link to http://www.dmoz.org/Home/Gardening/Landscaping/.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Coverage on WP is a good idea! I'm sure a some of it is on WP (e.g. some of the links above), but it is scattered about in many places. It is hard to be neutral while still proposing that certain things are "better", especially in such a complex area. I don't really think "Why lawns should be minimized in modern society" is a very good candidate for an article :) Also, I usually only make small corrections to article space, and spend most of my WP time on the ref desk, because those are tasks I can handle in ~10-15 minute work breaks. Anyway, do you have any specific articles in mind that could use this info? I could probably find various sources to scientific publications for many of my claims above, but I'm not sure where they would fit. If you have some suggestions of what/where I should include some of the ideas, I'll listen and at least give it 15 minutes a day :) SemanticMantis (talk) 23:20, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

There could be a new article called "Alternative lawns" or "Alternatives to lawns" or "Lawn alternatives"; there could be a new article called "Anti-lawn movement". In searching for online sources, I found some dissenting views.

• Why the anti-lawn movement bugs me a little
• Turf War : The New Yorker (July 21, 2008) (mentioning many of the same points that you mentioned)
• Anti-Lawn Nazis Should Call Off the Blitzkrieg | Garden Rant

Do your work breaks allow you to develop articles gradually in a "sandbox"?

—Wavelength (talk) 20:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I think Lawn alternatives would be a good place to start. Sure, I can work on a sandbox article in small chunks. Do you want to start one in your space, or should I start one here? SemanticMantis (talk) 20:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I prefer that you start one in your user space. Later, I might improve it, preferably in article space because I prefer to avoid editing in user spaces of other editors, except their talk pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll get a rough copy started and maybe ask a few others to take a look once it's presentable. Thanks for your help and encouragement! SemanticMantis (talk) 17:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The original discussion has been archived.

• Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 June 3#Lawn maintenance

Here is another external resource.

• Lawn Reform Coalition | The Lawn Reform Coalition is all about reducing or replacing lawn, water-wise lawn species and eco-friendly care for all lawns.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Here are a few reports like the one from which I quoted at the beginning of the discussion archived at Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2014 June 5#Lawn prohibition: Turf War : The New Yorker (July 21, 2008).

• Lenoir City woman sent to jail for having a messy yard (October 21, 2014)
• Brown lawn means jail time | Tampa Bay Times (October 8, 2008)
• Mow or Go to Jail! Local City Cracks Down on Lawn Care | fox8.com (May 15, 2014)

—Wavelength (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

"Food Not Lawns" is a new Misplaced Pages article.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is a news report about lawn maintenance for an elderly woman in Texas.

• Brothers Mow Lawn To Keep Woman From Going To Jail—KWTX (June 12, 2015)

—Wavelength (talk) 20:14, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

"Tapestry lawn" is a new Misplaced Pages article.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

-- putting this old thread back on my talk page to remind myself to work on this SemanticMantis (talk) 19:09, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

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consider edit

would you consider removing the word "important" from your closure comment title? I'm being a stickler but of course your comment along these lines isn't more or less important than anyone else's..it seems to be suggesting a kind of authority too..I partly state this as I do disagree with the interpretation of policy contained within the post (see my response there) so don't like the authoritative suggestion implied by the bold. Don't take this as a disrespect or a criticism of you (I'm actually a fan of your presence over at the reference desk)..68.48.241.158 (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence. I think it's important because there were two bolded requests for closure when I came in. I have changed it to "somewhat" important, and also changed the bolding. I do dislike even an accidental and unintended inference of appeal to authority ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 17:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

thanks for taking the time.68.48.241.158 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

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Some stroopwafels for you!

Thanks for your comments on the RefDesk. After reading the answers about floating ants I spent 2 days on Google learning new stuff! (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 16:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

User:The Quixotic Potato Hey thanks! I spent a year or so hanging around an ant lab at UIUC, sometimes I wish I would/could have stayed there, because ants are just so awesome :)SemanticMantis (talk) 17:35, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Personal attacks really not necessary

I suppose I must have stepped on your puppy at some point, Semantic Mantis. But I can't apologize for something I am unaware of.

You seem to hold an unswerving grudge of incivility against me, for example I know a bit of Greek, but I also don't bother spelling user names correctly when said user has been rude and unhelpful to me. Given that you are advocating incivilty rather than dialog and process (I have never intentionally misspelt your name) and make vague accusations and call names, I can only see this type of behavior as a personal attack.

If you don't feel like discussing a perceived slight on my talk page, go to ANI, because that's where I will go if you continue to slur me without reason.

In the meantime, I don't hold grudges and usually find your biology and linguistics spot on, so very often don't bother to comment once I have read you've answered the question. So I hope this note let's us put an end to this. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Medeis:, thanks for your comment. The bit you quoted - I was speaking conceptually, on behalf of Russel.mo. I think you were rude and unhelpful to him for no reason. He's a sweet kid, and lots of people treat him like some sort of idiot troll, and that bugs me. So I wanted to point out that, if someone is rude to me online, I often don't bother too much getting their name right. I guess I didn't explain very well, but I was hypothesizing a bit about his motives/feelings, not giving my own.

I'm a bit confused by your general confusion. How many years have we been bumping into each other here? How many times have I talked to you about WP:BITE and WP:AGF? Maybe not enough, but I do recall mentioning those to you on many occasions. I don't think you've ever done anything specifically awful to me in particular, but I think you have a long and consistent pattern of failing to AGF and biting IPs/newbies. Not horribly mean, but "low-level hostility toward OP or other respondents" is a phrase that I think describes a lot of your comments. At some point, I gave up asking you to be nice to our users, and instead decided I would treat you how I saw you treating others. A bit petty, indeed. But if you look at my comments, you'll see that they are not strictly personal in nature. For example when someone said you were being rude and unhelpful, I said something about how a lot of your recent posts were that way. That is a comment about your responses, not about you as a person.

I like many of your answers on biology and linguistics too - that's part of why your bitey behavior bugs me: the benefit of you good answers is undermined by your comments that push people away. Anyway, I don't really bear grudges either, that's why I usually put in good faith efforts to help you when you post questions. Funny story: a while back I noted that I hadn't seen you around the ref desks. I almost dropped a line on your talk page, along the lines of "Hey medeis, haven't seen you around, what's up, did you ever make that hooch?" But then I didn't, and a few days later I saw you show up again, doing something rude and unhelpful, so I dropped it.

But now hopefully I've cleared it up: TLDR: I think you're often rude and unhelpful to IPs and new users, and that that behavior reflects poorly on our ref desk. I think you're also often helpful and positive, but sometimes the former is easier to see.

I understand some of your frustration, but think it is counterproductive. It is far easier, I think, to ignore a post you don't like, than it is to ignore hostility when it comes to you online. There's all kinds of crap I see on the ref desk I don't like, but, with the exception of a few snide comments (mostly to Stu and Bugs, but some recently about you), I try to not say anything unless I think I can directly help. And honestly, even when I make snide comments, I think that can sometimes help. For example I went on a campaign where I told Stu several times, repeatedly, to not just type up the first thing that springs into his head. A little rude and brusque, but that's what he was doing, and I think at some level he didn't even know it. And it's hard to say for sure but I think he's gotten better. So maybe I should have been more direct with you, because the main thing is I think that your help at the desks is undermined by the bitiness. If you were a little nicer, I think you'd be a great asset.

BTW, I won't be around much for a while, I'm leaving on a trip. So rather than discuss this at length, let's make a deal: I'll try to be nicer to you, and you try to be nicer to IPs. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:45, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

P.S. on spelling: the Greek sig you use has a lowercase mu (${\displaystyle \mu }$), not an upper case mu (${\displaystyle \mathrm {M} }$) so I assumed the "correct" spelling in English was "medeis", but I see now your actual username is "Medeis", so if I gave offense by improper spelling or lack of capitalization, I assure you it was entirely accidental, I have never personally intended to slight you by misspelling your name.

The mipselling is a side issue, except for the fact that you defended it as deserved. The central point of disagreement between us is that you tell me I can ignore posts I "don't like". I do not attack posts because I dislike them. I object because they are obvious violations of policy or the disclaimer. The next time you see me abuse a newbie for posting something I don't like (but which is cromulent per policy), bring it to me directly, please. Talking about me negatively in the third person when I am in the room is not normally considered polite. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not talking about your "policy" issues. Though I think you're often wrong on those, I can simply revert/change and treat that as a professional difference of opinion. But the very thing you linked above has you saying

"User:Russell.mo, is accessing google illegal where you live? μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)"

Full context here That is no difference of opinion on policy, that is you being bitey and rude. The question was 100% cromulent and your comment 100% WP:BITE. So to reiterate, I'm not giving you a hard time because we disagree on policy, I'm giving you hard time because you're mean to people. As I said before, I can try to be more polite to you, but it will be far easier if you try to be polite to others. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:02, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

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Ping issue

Hola!

Did you mean, @SemanticMantis: or SemanticMantis? Which one do you/others prefer anyway? Does both work btw? Note:I think ping word has a computer literature meaning i.e. not good. There is also another one i.e. @SemanticMantis: I know of. -- Apostle (talk) 04:02, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Russell.mo: I don't care which form you use, and they both work. I think there might be a slight preference for the ping template, but I'm not sure. One thing to be careful about-- look at this:

Here is a comment. Russell.mo

--Someone reading quickly might think that comment was written by you, and that doesn't happen with the ping template. So that's one reason people might prefer ping. If you leave it like this -- User:Russell.mo -- then there is also no confusion.

As for ping itself. I think that word originally comes from SONAR usage, and it's an example of Onomatopoeia, because the sound going out sounds a little bit like person saying "ping!". Or at least, sometimes. Here is an example of a real-world sonar ping and sweep. That doesn't sound like "ping" to me. But this is an example of a sound effect that is what most people would imagine a ping sounds like, and it does sound a little bit like "ping" (maybe old sonar used to sound like that? This might make an interesting question for the ref desk, I bet Nimur and some others might know a little about this :)

Anyway, in computer terms, Ping is also the name of a program that checks to see if another computer is responsive - Ping_(networking_utility). In both cases, ping is neutral, and not bad. It is perfectly polite to use in any context, so don't worry about that. The Misplaced Pages ping template is named by analogy to the computer term I think - it sends out a little message and if the the user is responsive or available they will get back to you. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay thanks. -- Apostle (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2016 (UTC)