Misplaced Pages

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• A request for adminship is open for discussion.
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• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
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Self taken Provocative Photos:

If the User:Publicgirluk stops uploading sexually charged photos of herself to Misplaced Pages, I have volunteered to start doing so myself. My boyfriend and I love to take sexy pics! We are thinking about making one to complement the Anal Sex article.

Also, User:Anchoress has also expressed interest in making photos for Misplaced Pages along those lines.

Thanks :)Courtney Akins 02:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You are hopefully aware that you might be tripping up WP:POINT. Hbdragon88 03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say, WP:TROLL. Blocked indefinitely for disruption. El_C 04:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't say that her edits have been wise... but is an indefinite block really appropriate? Based on the user's contribution history, she seems interested in a) decreasing the Myspace-ness of the Wiki (using a few measures that have been proposed by others, a few not) and b) increasing Misplaced Pages's coverage of sexuality, particularly borderline practices. For that matter, the behavior you've mentioned hardly seems to come close to WP:BLOCK's description of disruption, and an indefinite block of a user with a couple hundred edits (many of which have been productive) without a community ban is highly irregular. As an admin of long standing, you've earned community trust... but is there something that I'm not seeing here? Would it not have been more productive to raise your concerns with the editor before blocking? Captainktainer * Talk 08:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely - this block seems very irregular. El C, please reconsider it. -- ChrisO 08:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to clarify something - I think the editor was in the wrong with her proposal, and I think she was a little haughty and arrogant. But I don't feel that haughtiness and arrogance merit a complete and unilateral ban from the community. I think it might be helpful to talk to the user in question, warn her to spend more time in the community before making policy proposals - a very brief block to cool things off, if there was considerable disruption, I think might have been appropriate. She clearly has a lot to learn about Misplaced Pages policies. But, barring information that El_C has that I don't, I have to question the proportionality of the response. Captainktainer * Talk 08:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

While I have tried to mentor the above user, I feel that El C's block is pretty much in order. There were things that El C explained to me, via email, that gave me enough reason to believe the block was just. Sure, I tried to help Courtney out and gave her pointers and all of that stuff. But even with my advice, she is doing this, so I am not sure if in the long run if she will be a good contributor or I will be burned at the stake at some random RFAr. However, if this user is unblocked, I would still like to mentor her, but I need something with teeth, because I can admit that Courtney is a wild gal, I just need something to tame her. User:Zscout370 08:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay... I think there's something to be said for trust and respecting the long history of established admins in this matter. Perhaps ArbCom would be willing to place a temporary injunction on her, enjoining her not to make policy proposals until they can review her case? That way she can continue to edit while they consider her case. Alternatively, if she's willing to accept mediation, perhaps she could be talked into accepting that sort of remedy voluntarily. Maybe these ideas are farfetched... I just think that there might be ways to handle this situation that don't end in a block. Captainktainer * Talk 08:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There were things that El C explained to me, via email - how about it's explained to the rest of us - here? Misplaced Pages cannot have it both ways, yes THIS editor MIGHT be trying to make WP:POINT but as a general principle, if we don't have censorship here - then within the context set-up in the previous dicussions I have seen about this issue of people uploading pornography pictures of themselves, it seems entirely straightforward and reasonable for members to say "I see the scat article does not have a picture, do you want a picture of my girlfriend shitting on my face?". (I'm actually against pornography images on wikipedia but I bow to the community on the matter). --Charlesknight 09:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, real pictures are highly controversial. Even drawings of anal sex and other sexual poses have been somewhat contentious; real photos would be even more controversial. Misplaced Pages is not officially censored, but consensus dictates what goes into an article or not (like, for instance, whether the drawing in Missionary position should have the teddy bear or not). Hbdragon88 07:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

This person is talking about what they might do. How is that "disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point"? Not finding the word "troll" on WP:BP I am guessing this block is warranted under "exhausting the communitiy's patience" and I must admit to not being familiar with this editor's past but with only one block (this one) to her name I don't really see how the community's patience block applies here. Could someone spell out specifically which section of the blocking policy this block falls under? Thanks. (→Netscott) 09:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The commonsense part? Tyrenius 09:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a "common sense" clause in WP:BLOCK, for good reason; the blocking tool is powerful and can potentially cause great havoc, so all blocks should be done with care and forethought. The closest that comes is "Disruption," which has a 24-hour max for the first block. Captainktainer * Talk 09:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get everyone to look through all of this user's edits and then go for exhausting the community's patience. Tyrenius 09:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I am so glad someone's had the initiative to indef block this blatant troll. A few hours ago I went through all of this user's edits, and it was unmistakable. This is not a novice. This person knows their way round all the nooks and crannies of wikipedia. Within the first two days they had not only created their first article on "Throat gaggers" oral sex porn film, but had proposed it as a featured article, describing it as a work of "pure genius". That is just such a wind-up. Then as a new user in their first two days they put up a bit of Florida for AfD.. Also in this meteoric career, also in the first two days, they found their way to Categories for deletion on the Rouge Admins template. Day 3 sees our newbie placing a NPOV template on an article on Human rights in Brazil, saying it is "99% negative" and "not sourced" (sources are given), and then, before the day is out, nominating Gay rights in Brazil as an AfD. Need I go on? An extra worry is that this person was not female at all, and was not the subject in the photo. Seems par for the course. It would also be interesting to run Checkuser on this editor and the IP vandal that posted the sexual photos on the user page. Zscout370, I emailed you about this, but didn't get a reply. Did you get my email, or does the Foundation eat them or something? Tyrenius 09:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not recieve such email, go ahead and send again. If that doesn't work, my WP talk page should be fine. User:Zscout370 19:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked at some of the poster's track record, and I can see why someone might conclude that she is mainly here to take the piss engage in satire and merry japes. That said, she still has a way to go before it's a question of community patience being exhausted. I suggest she be unblocked soon on the basis that it's been long enough on this occasion. Metamagician3000 09:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

How exactly do you explain that this so-called newbie finds "her" way around with a competence that takes most people weeks or months to develop, and yet, despite this obvious sophistication, manages to come out with actions that use all the right words to purport to help wikipedia and yet are all perfectly inappropriate. I've looked at every one of the edits. I suggest you do the same. It's actually highly amusing, but I don't think wikipedia's purpose is to cater for that kind of amusement. Tyrenius 09:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

And if her edits continue to be mainly attempts (some moderately amusing, some not) at satirising Misplaced Pages, with attendant disruption, I'll probably support an indefinite block "next time". This is sort of like an RfA oppose in reverse. Metamagician3000 09:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

To respond to user Tyrenius' post, if this user is an abusive/disruptive sockpuppet then indeed an indefinite block is warranted in this case. (→Netscott) 09:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we should unblock "her" just to see what "she" does next. It's hilarious once you're in on it to see everyone take it so seriously. We could just keep it to ourselves. And watch. :) Tyrenius 09:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

(Strike - it's not very nice that this person is exploiting people's kindness and generosity. Tyrenius 09:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

I don't take offence at Courtney bringing me into this conversation, although she slightly misrepresented me, but personally I have felt that she was on a road to inevitable blocking from the first posts I saw of her. I think she is a troll, I think she is probably a sock (I have some opinions of who but won't smear anyone), and while I don't have an opinion on a permanent block I think she'll eventually get one, one way or another. A third of her edits are great, a third are blatant - at the very least useless to the project and at worst inappropriate - attention-seeking, and a third are subtle trolling. In my interactions with her I AGF, but my opinion is that s/he's like a kid who shoots spit balls at the teacher when her back is turned, then sits there with an innocent smile the rest of the time. Anchoress 09:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Bang on target. Tyrenius 09:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have time to read every single diff, but I looked at a few more, and it just confirms what a few of us have been saying: this user's career here is an elaborate piss-take. There may be some genuinely helpful edits somewhere, but if so they are hard to find.

I dunno. She's wasting a lot of our time, even if some of it is funny once you understand what she's up to. I suppose it's a question of whether there is any admin who is prepared to tell her that we got the joke and we'd now like to give her a chance to edit seriously. I'm not going to be that admin. Maybe someone else is more soft-hearted. If anyone does give her a second chance, I for one will watch her. If no one does, I guess that's the definition of a community ban. Either way, El_C made a good catch here. Metamagician3000 11:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I support an indef ban as the very first ban, for a user with a record, if that record includes productive edits. I'm inclined to agree with MM3K about the career so far but I do think someone ought to tell this user "we get the joke and here's your chance to edit seriously". So I'd give this user a second chance and watch carefully. I'm not seeing consensus either way yet though, and I'd like to hear from El C before I overturned his block, as I REALLY don't like to overturn other people's blocks. ++Lar: t/c 12:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Assume Good Faith" doesn't mean we have to act willfully stupid or credulous. I support El C's action, because this user smells like an obvious troll to me. Nandesuka 14:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as Lar is the one doing the watching, I'm with Lar here.(you did volunteer! ;-P) You will indef block if this person acts up again, right? Anybody strongly opposed? If not... good luck! Kim Bruning 15:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, if I overturn the block I'll keep an eye on this user to the best of my ability (but welcome help). Perhaps a notice to the user to that effect by me is in order as well. Maybe even a mentorship. And yes, if something does transpire that is unacceptable, I would block indefinitely, I've blocked indefinitely before and have no issues with the concept, just didn't think it was warranted yet in this case. El C, is this acceptable to you? ++Lar: t/c 17:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see any warning related to the reasoning behind the ban, this seems out of order, and perhaps inspired by other events unrelated to the user being banned. I recently looked through this users contributions, and I see that other reasons may have been involved with the ban, however those reasons were not made clear. HighInBC 15:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't say I support the block. Based on looking at a few diffs, the user seems naive (e.g. lack of appreciation of copyright), but not dangerous. I also hope we're not blocking people just because they offer to upload pictures of anal sex. If we prefer to stick with illustrations of sexual techniques as opposed to photographs (I've no opinion on this), we can tell the user this rather than blocking them outright. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 16:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Courtney doesn't seem to be an overly disruptive user to begin with. Considering this is her first block ever and she was blocked for disrupton, seems a little suspicious. I think she would need to be mentored for Misplaced Pages civility, if anything. Her message above was inappropriate, yes, but blockworthy, maybe not so much. I would have tried to talk to the user about her actions, and block (for maybe 48 hours) if she continued to be disruptive, but indefblocked.. never.. for the above message. I don't know if her block was very justified in the sense of disruption, because no warnings were ever used and there doesn't seem to be many comments on her talk page about her conduct prior to her block. — The Future 16:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done the look-at-every diff thing. Somebody said a third of her edits are great; they aren't. Of her edits, I counted six which seemed OK, and only one, this human experimentation business she agitated about on AN/I, which truly helped the encyclopedia. My opinion is that Courtney couldn't troll us any harder if she had came back in time from the future with a cybernetic trolling machine with which to troll us. She's completely disruptive, but in a slow, methodical way that has been shy of producing any blocks. Should she be indefed? Sigh, I guess not. I suggest reducing the block to a week and letting this episode stand as a warning. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the sole purpose of this account is disruption, and I commend El_C for acting on that basis. However, it was a BOLD move and he has properly posted it here for discussion. Some other users have raised various doubts and opinion is divided. I think it is right to make sure that people are happy with admin actions. One objection is that a warning was not given for what could be seen as naivete, rather than deliberateness. I propose that this block to date should serve as that warning, and now be lifted. It is not going to do a great deal of harm now that Courtney Atkins is going to be closely watched. It won't take long to confirm things one way or the other, and it should at the very least provide some amusement. Has there ever previously been an article simultaneously a Featured Article Candidate and an Article for Deletion, I wonder? I propose also that any user should feel free to revert any action by Courtney Atkins, if they feel it is not appropriate, provided they leave an explanation on Courtney Atkins' talk page as to why they have done so, for educational purposes. Also, bearing in mind the pranks, we should not allow the uploading of any photos, unless it can be proved that these are the copyright of Courtney Atkins. Tyrenius 20:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

That all seems reasonable to me. I'm not lifting unless 1) either I hear from El C or a clear consensus here develops, right now it's not clear to me yet, and 2) the user responds positively to my offer of mentorship. I note Zscout offered to help mentor as well. Others may choose differently but those are my criteria for lifting.++Lar: t/c 20:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I support Tyrenius' suggestion, upon hearing from El_C again. — The Future 20:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. My only fixed position is on the photos, which I feel otherwise could be a serious error. Tyrenius 21:19, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it could be. If she's unblocked, I think she should be allowed to upload Images as long as they aren't about the very pointy ones she expressed here about self-photos of her recieving anal sex. I would support of blocking of her is decided to post those Images. — The Future 23:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had encounters with Courtney, and I've read this post, and I'm stongly opposed to the unblocking of Courtney. She is a WP:Point troll in the worst sense of the term I kind of just made up. She is almost dilberately hypocritical in the sense she posts about Misplaced Pages becoming myspace, while she has a photo of herself plastered on her userpage and makes posts like these. I'll confess I haven't read the book, but I doubt this. Also, I find these posts just really odd. Also, it didn't help when she suggested a Stalinist system of maintaining user accounts. She has certainly exhausted my patience, demonstrates trollish behavior, and to be perfectly blunt is up to no good in my opinion. Yanksox 00:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm an outlier here, but when I contrast this user with other "exhausted our patience" users, I'm just not seeing that we're anywhere near that point yet. I think you guys know I think of myself as firm and intolerant of trolling (some of which I do definitely see here) but I'm not seeing the exhausted part yet. I expect typically to see a larger history here, or somewhere else, before I get to "exhausted my patience" state. You can count on me to mentor this user and if it's not working out, block, and block hard. But if the community doesn't agree, that's fine too. I'd like to get to a conclusion though, if possible. I wish El C would speak up again. ++Lar: t/c 00:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wholly agree with Courtney Akins's proposal. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

unblocked

After hearing from El C that he has no objections, I have unblocked this user. See: User_talk:Courtney_Akins#Unblocked. What I would ask from the rest of you is twofold, give me the space to mentor this user and see if they can reform and fly right... don't expect me to jump on every little thing. But on the other hand, DO please bring things to my attention, issues, advice, anything you feel I need to know. My email and talk are always open to my fellow admins. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 01:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, cool with me. Metamagician3000 01:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I will be happy to co-operate. Tyrenius 02:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

A victory for the trolls. Again, natch. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 09:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

So what Jeffrey? Lar has volunteered to bear the burden so you don't have to. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 09:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, every single person has to deal with "her" trolling. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 10:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Beyond that message she left on your talk page, it's been you who has decided to reply to everyone one of her threads with WP:TROLL links. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 00:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to mentor this user, and I'd ask if there are new issues that arise (unless they are extremely urgent), please bring them to my attention first and I'll deal with them... this ensures a consistent message. There are those that think I'm on a fools errand, and I may well be, but I'd like to give it a fair try. If Courtney can't improve I'll cut the communities losses to be sure, so please let me try, thanks! ++Lar: t/c 17:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to "exhaust the community's patience" to be blocked indefinitely

Catching the tail end of this on returning from a break, I just want to protest the notion that an account needs to "exhaust the community's patience" before they can be blocked indefinitely. El C clearly didn't place an "exhausted patience" block but an "all edits trolling" block. Such blocks can with perfect appropriateness be set on an account's first day. Why ever not? We frequently invoke "All edits vandalism" as a reason for pretty much immediate indefinite blocks; is there a significant difference between that and this? No. Not even if the editor was savvy enough to technically make one or two non-trolling edits just to spike our guns. Lar's wasting his time, but it's his choice. Bishonen | talk 12:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC).

Chiming in to point out that I've blocked a few accounts indef (see for yourself: Lar (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves) ) in some cases with just one edit (when that single edit was by an account with a bad username that was clearly vandalism) so it's not that an account NEEDS to have exhausted the community's patience. It's just that it was asserted (or felt to me like it was asserted) that this one had, and I'm not sure that's the case, as it hasn't yet exhausted mine and I think I'm part of the community (right? er, maybe don't answer that? :) ). Note also that I didn't unilaterally lift, I got El C's concurrance first... I could well be wasting my time, who knows, we shall see. (something you've suspected me of doing in the past in other contexts, mind you) Or maybe I have other motives, as I did those other times you thought I was wasting my time. ++Lar: t/c 12:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you weren't the one barking up the Exhausted Patience tree as if it was the only one in the forest. But several other users were. A metaphor of dogs, not monkeys. Bishonen | talk 12:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC).

No one objected when I indef blocked User:General Tojo without warning, for ex. Perhaps he lacked the promise of sexy pics! ;) El_C 20:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I was not aware of the fact that User:General Tojo was banned indefinitely without warning. Perhaps you are a bit too trigger happy with your ban button? Dionyseus 21:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Awareness is good! El_C 22:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Did his sockpuppeting come before or after the block of the original account? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 13:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh Samsara. Let's just say he was using Misplaced Pages as an experiment for trolling, but a more pro-Nazi than anti. Luckily, everything he said was in English, so it was —and remains— actually readable to us on the En-Wiki. El_C 13:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the debate you are referring to was posted in German and carried over onto the English Misplaced Pages was not by my choosing. If you wish to criticise the translation I provided, I invited everyone to do so when the discussion was still happening. I note that you chose not to do so. The only person to comment felt that the translation was accurate. If you wish to continue to make insinuations about my political orientation, one of us will have to take this up the administrative chain. Yours faithfully, Samsara (talk • contribs) 09:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My review of General Tojo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) suggests much more there to exhaust patience and I support the block. Note also that the indef was not the first block. Shorter blocks are a form of warning in my view. ++Lar: t/c 17:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Differential treatment for "I am an 18 year old hottie who wants you to see her body" accounts is a laughable constant on the Internet. You would think that Misplaced Pages would have enough folks with sufficient experience, or at least a sufficient number of "disinterested" people, to not fall for it. Courtny was one such. Publicgirluk may not have been. I did some research, and there is an account name by that handle very active in sex sites in the UK, but that doesn't confirm anything. Tojo was a troll who announced as much with his account name and then demonstrated it amply with his edits. Assuming good faith doesn't mean being a fool. Geogre 16:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You show an exemplary demonstration of AGF by accepting the user is indeed an "18 year old hottie". I must confess I have not found it possible to achieve the same standard. :) Tyrenius 18:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

Edipedia and his sockpuppet Editor 1 edit warring, removal of warnings, and vandalism

Edipedia has engaged in a long edit war on Han Chinese and other Chinese-ethnic-related articles such as Overseas Chinese, pushing his POV in apparent ignorance of Misplaced Pages policies. Attempts to discuss with him and to educate him in Misplaced Pages policies failed (see his talk page and the long discussion at Talk:Han Chinese); Edipedia edits regardless of talk page discussions, sometimes with abusive edit summaries . Edipedia does not seem to be fluent in English , which can be understood and is completely acceptable. However, any note or warning that went into his talk page was abruptly removed without any reason etc., despite continuous reminders not to do so. Attempts to discuss from about five established users in Misplaced Pages, including User:Sumple, User:Nat Krause, User:HongQiGong, User:Instantnood failed miserably as Edipedia refused to listen to any advice, making comments like "I do see a lot of Stuff and nonsense here" and commenting that he thinks Misplaced Pages is a 💕 and therefore he is free to edit anything . He also tried to correct what he see as grammatical mistakes , but most of the time it was he that was wrong, and he refused to listen to it and started to tell others to "study English grammer" . He then started to politically accuse others of being "Taiwanese" ; then, despite reminders of WP:NOT a soapbox he continued to accuse others of various political matters . In the meantime he continues to make POV or wrong edits around the article Han Chinese (in various parts of the article; all of the edits are reverted by separate contributors, to be added by him again). I requested the page Han Chinese (and later Overseas Chinese) to be fully-protected to try to make Edipedia discuss logically; however, Edipedia immediately requested the page for unprotection twice (second one using one of his sockpuppets, Epedia, as he was blocked for his third violation of 3RR), claiming that "edit war has died down". The second request succeeded. However, he immediately started an edit war, making 4 reverts under 40 minutes (without any discussion or edit summaries, to be reverted by User:Instantnood and User:HongQiGong). Any attempt to discuss with him failed; he then engaged in pure vandalism, including the placing of obvious illegitimate warnings . After being blocked 48 hours for the fourth violation of 3RR after three more reverts in Han Chinese (reverted by me and HongQiGong), he created a sockpuppet account, User:Editor 1 and continued edit warring and pure vandalism, including the disruption of Administrators' noticeboard (the particular case about Edipedia) . More evidence of sockpuppeting is here. User Edipedia continues to blank his talk page. Edipedia has another sockpuppet, User:Epedia, which he sometimes uses when he is blocked. Epedia is an obvious sockpuppet: see .Aran|heru|nar 03:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Without regard to this report, I blocked Editor 1 for 4 days for 3RR violations, disruption, and personal attacks (per this) alphaChimp 03:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia has made another obvious sockpuppet, Yepre. He is continuing his reckless edit warring in Chinese people, making four reverts under 24 hours with the account alone. Aran|heru|nar 02:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia is trying to remove the sockpuppeteer tag from his User page. He has removed it three times already, and will most likely keep going until an admin stops him. --- Hong Qi Gong 16:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. He illegitimately put a sockpuppeteer tag on my user page as retaliation for my edits. --- Hong Qi Gong 17:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Edipedia is once again removing warnings from his Talk page. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:DENY-driven deletion spree

Cyde has gone on a deletion spree of fifty-four vandalism-related pages; make note of the contents of his deletion log (copied here for ease of historical viewing, hidden for courtesy of the uninterested; yes I'm aware the Nav classes don't work in many browsers/skins):

02:19, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/CapnCrack" (Orphaned talk page)
02:19, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:CK" (CSD R1)
02:18, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:JOHNNY" (CSD R1)
02:18, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/CapnCrack" (WP:DENY)
02:18, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:JtV" (CSD R1)
02:17, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Johnny the Vandal" (Orphaned)
02:17, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Johnny the Vandal" (WP:DENY)
02:13, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:SQUID" (CSD R1)
02:08, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Kitten Vandal" (Orphaned)
02:08, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Kitten Vandal" (WP:DENY)
01:41, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template talk:BB" (Orphaned talk page)
01:41, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:BB" (Orphaned)
01:39, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:BOBBY" (CSD R1)
01:36, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Mr. Treason" (Orphaned)
01:36, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Mr. Treason" (Long-gone vandal)
01:28, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Loyola Vandal" (Orphaned)
01:28, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Loyola Vandal" (WP:DENY)
01:24, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:KV" (WP:DENY)
01:20, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template talk:NCV" (Orphaned)
01:20, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:NCV" (Orphaned)
01:17, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:NCV" (CSD R1)
01:16, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:NORTH" (content was: '#REDIRECT Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal' (and the only contributor was 'Nkcs'))
01:11, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal" (Orphaned)
01:11, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal" (Just another vandal)
01:10, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal/Appearences outside of English Misplaced Pages" (Not relevant to en-wiki.)
00:57, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Outoftuneviolin" (Orphaned)
00:57, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Outoftuneviolin" (Gone vandal)
00:46, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Ball of wax vandal" (Orphaned)
00:46, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Ball of wax vandal" (Dead vandal)
00:37, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:NCVChecked" (Orphaned)
00:31, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:Johnny the Vandal" (Orphaned)
00:30, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:JTV" (Orphaned)
00:30, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:JtV" (Orphaned)
00:12, 30 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:User CVU1-en" (Non-existent membership.)
19:56, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "CAT:WOW" (CSD R1)
19:56, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:WOW" (Insipid shortcut)
19:54, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/The Communism Vandal" (Orphaned)
19:54, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/The Communism Vandal" (Long-gone user)
19:53, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Wikipedia is Communism" (Orphaned)
19:53, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Wikipedia is Communism" (Long-gone user)
19:52, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of the Communism vandal" (Long-gone vandal)
19:48, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/Bobby Boulders" (Orphaned)
19:48, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Bobby Boulders" (No such person)
19:47, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages talk:Long term abuse/MilkMan" (Orphaned)
19:47, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:UsernameBlock-MilkMan" (Unused)
19:47, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Template:Unb-mm" (Unused)
19:44, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/MilkMan" (The "real" MilkMan hasn't been around for a long while.)
19:43, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "WP:MILK" (Bleagh)
19:43, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of MilkMan" (Bye bye MilkMan)
19:38, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/Willy on Wheels/Appearances outside of the English Misplaced Pages" (Per MFD)
05:35, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Category talk:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Willy on Wheels" (Orphaned)
05:34, 29 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Willy on Wheels" (No more Willy)
19:06, 28 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "User:TheA57Manchester" ({{Pageblankvandal}})
19:03, 28 August 2006 Cyde (Talk | contribs) deleted "User:TheM62Manchester" (Denying vandals userpages)

The Willy on Wheels' non-wiki appearances subpage was the result of a MfD, as the Outoftuneviolin subpage, and unless I'm missing some sort of major event, at the moment those seem to be the only deletions that had any sort of legitimate justifications under the official deletion policy. As Cyde has not made any sort of declaration or announcement of his actions (a quick contribs glance proves that easily), I highly suspect he will defend himself with claims that he has "full community backing" in the matter, and definitely "there is no controversy over WP:DENY" will come up many times (getting any deja-vu yet?).

I'm just starting to feel sick at the sheer, sheer, sheer disrespect for process occuring here. ~ PseudoSudo 14:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to interject, some of us are starting to feel sick at the worshipful attitude towards process which is infecting Misplaced Pages like a fungus. Why did you think WP:IAR was formulated in the first place? HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 15:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

IAR is about things for which we have no policy; it is cited by people who haven't good reasons for what they want to do. If I deleted that page, would it be a cute case of IAR, I wonder? Geogre 20:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

lol That's a good one. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The sooner we abandon it, the better. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You mean the worshipping process for its own sake, elevating it above the actual goals of the project, just so some people can get their jollies playing Junior-league Perry Mason? Hear hear! --Calton | Talk 17:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

When that occurs, we can deal with it. Until then, people who cite IAR are usually the ones playing to indifference and prejudice rather than reason. Geogre 20:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

TThe other relevent discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators noticeboard#Indef blocked userpages - new policy and Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion#Category:Misplaced Pages blocked imposters and all subcategories This is a coordinated effort to eventually get rid of all vandal pages and categories. Some of them can go, but some are useful (see ANI discussion above) however I feel that Doc and Cyde are ignoring that fact and will soon be pushing thier total deletion agenda on everything. Check their deletion logs. pschemp | talk 15:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh...that's disgusting. Such a gross level of out-of-process speedy deletions should be "rewareded" with immediate and permanant desysopping. jgp _C 15:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's as disgusting as it would ever get, worse even than out-of-process userbox deletions... -- Grafikm 15:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, but I don't believe the deletions were at all out of process. Put simply, vandals shouldn't be given their own pages on Misplaced Pages. All vandals want is attention and those pages were giving it to them. Those pages were just adding fuel to the fire, so to speak. hoopydink 15:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying these pages should not be deleted, I'm saying these deletions are out of process, which is not the same thing. Yes, WP:DENY is an interesting essay, but it has to mature for some time before being applied. -- Grafikm 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Let's desysop him at once. because you know, Misplaced Pages is all about process. Screw the encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 15:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

While these deletions are out of process Cyde's actions are understandable (if a bit too speedy). I agree with others that vandals shouldn't be "rewarded" by having more Misplaced Pages infrastructure than is necessary utilized to properly manage their disruptions. I'm guessing that if need be Cyde can as easily unspeedy these deletions for proper review but at first glance his motivations are surely in the right place. (→Netscott) 15:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that he's just doing it and not really discussing it with anyone else (which is his "thing" anyway, if we recall, for instance, his stable version on Elephant action), I'm not even sure if we can say his motivations are surely in the right place. It seems to be that he's motivated to make things the way he wants them, and deal with the lack of consequences later. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that his apparent motivation to reduce vandal "rewarding" is out of place Badlydrawnjeff? I do not concur if that is the case. (→Netscott) 15:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm making no judgement call on the value or lack thereof, it's irrelevant to this. Given his track record, healthy skepticism is a requirement in my mind. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Administrative actions regarding meta-material such as this really don't seem — to me — to be worth wailing, gnashing of teeth, and shirt-ripping. Can we turn down the drama knob a bit? Nandesuka 15:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If this were an isolated incident, it'd be one thing. This is one in a list w/Cyde, and a demonstration that certain members learned nothing from the userbox debacle. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Sigh* "out of process" the wors possible crime to humankind. We should tear down oen of the 5 pillars over which wikipedia is built. -- Drini 15:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • And what pillar is "ignore everyone and do whatever you feel is best?" --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
    • "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages's quality, ignore them." <-- actual policy. -- Drini 15:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Holy crap. IAR has never been policy until recently. Where was the discussion on this? That's absolutely absurd. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
        • IAR has never NOT been policy except for a brief lapse in attention that allowed it to be reclassified. Jimbo himself caught the change a couple weeks ago and had a fit. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
          • That's quite the extended "brief lapse." I don't think he knows the can of worms that opens. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
            • He may have opened the can, but you'll have to eat them worms. Mackensen (talk) 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

In which way these deletions improve WP's quality, I wonder... -- Grafikm 15:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Excercise left to the reader. submit before Monday 10:00 am. -- Drini 15:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation for those who don't get my point: Yes burn him!!!! 15:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Fine. You can have your damn pillar. Let's just allow corrupt admins to avoid doing pesky things such as "building consensus" (you know, the principle Misplaced Pages is supposed to be based on) before going off on massive deletion sprees. jgp _C 04:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The real concern I have is where will this stop? Some need to be deleted, yes, but some are useful and that fact is being ignored. There is a perfect example of that on ANI right now, yet no one is talking about where the limits of the deletions are. pschemp | talk 15:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. A bit of rational discussion produces better results than stomping off on a crusade, almost every time. Friday (talk) 15:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Rational calls for desysoppings are usually better. -- Drini 15:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

OK look. I don't really care one bit about whether these deletions are in or out of process. Honest, I don't. And arguments that they are out of process truly miss the point, which is that we are getting some things tossed that we need kept, things that admins working hard to counteract sock vandals need to get their work done. I'm prepared to restore items that got deleted by mistake, without regard to DrV, and take the heat for it, if the case is made to me (in whatever manner you choose) that they're needful. This is starting to verge on throwing the baby out with the bathwater and arguing about whether it is in or out of process is itself wankery. (from both camps!) ++Lar: t/c 15:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Process is a means for determining community consensus; so is just plain talking. Let's decide if people think some of these pages are useful and restore them. -- SCZenz 15:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll start. I looked through the deleted pages, and none of them look useful to me. Anyone else? -- SCZenz 15:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Lar here. While these items are useless, I'd be in full support of they're being restored "out-of-process" if someone can present a valid and useful reason. Bastique▼ _voir 15:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Because, you know, community input isn't one. Is that how I should interpret this? --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You need a reason that you wish them restored, sir. Not just an objection to how they were deleted in the first place. -- SCZenz 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We have ways we go about doing these things, sir. An objection to how it was done tdue to lack of community input is an absolutely valid objection. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it's disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. If you want the pages back, talk about the pages. -- SCZenz 16:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like the only disruption at this point was the out of process deletion. Too bad you're supporting such nonsense. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree with Friday. I've been open about what I'm doing all along - hense my post up above yesterday solicitating comments. I've been listening for any rational objections. I've sent the categories to CfD for a full debate. But changing things round here is always a matter of being bold and talking at the same time. Boldness only and you get backs up, talk only and you go in circles. I sense a consensus is emerging. Sure, it will need to be tweeked - a case for keeping some of the vandal-forensics may exist (I've yet to hear it tough). Nothing I've done is irreverable - although no-one has reversed anything yet.--Doc 15:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Doc, here is one Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/MascotGuy that *is* useful, right now. Why? Because the people fighting that vandal said they need it. It is covered by your proposal to delete all LTA pages. It's been pointed out to you multiple times I think, although maybe you missed it. If it gets deleted, in or out of process, I'll speedy restore it on request, and to the devil with process. I'm turning my process wonk badge in, I think. I say that and yet I am totally in agreement with losing memorialising things, we don't need them. ++Lar: t/c 16:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For my part I completely support the spirit of what Cyde and Doc are doing. There is absolutely no sense in keeping monuments to vandals around just because we can't muster a supermajority on MFD to delete them. Any pages that are of actual ongoing utility to people dealing with vandalism are another matter, but it is unclear to me that these monuments are in fact useful in this fashion. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The case discussed at AN right now is an LTA page that was recently useful in convincing some admins that a new editor was in fact an old vandal. That's an excellent use of the LTA concept. No one needs an LTA page for Willy any more, page move vandalism is obvious and doesn't require investigation. We also don't need to categorize vandals except in the cases of subtle vandals that require investigation, and we don't need vandal templates as long as a reasonable summary is included in the block log ("page move vandal", "attack user name", etc.) Too much of the anti-vandal tagging and categorizing is about scorekeeping, and obvious vandals don't need to be tracked or counted. Just block and move on. I support 90% of these deletions and I would recommend that if any LTA pages that are needed for the more subtle vandals are deleted, to undelete them and make a note on the page/talk page. Thatcher131 (talk) 16:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"There is absolutely no sense in keeping monuments to vandals around just because we can't muster a supermajority on MFD to delete them.".

I see. We can't get a consensus on MFD, so let's delete 'em with no consenus. I'm afraid the implications of such a logic are quite far-reaching - and a little bit terrifying to say the least. -- Grafikm 16:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is the MfD page where there is no consensus for deleting? Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Long term abuse/Willy on Wheels 2 was overwhelming consensus in favor of deleting. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Long term abuse/North Carolina vandal was closed keep because it was initiated by a troll, not based on the page itself. There are several CfDs in favor of deleting. Perhaps there could have been a few more MfDs to clarify the support of the matter, but there is no good reason to require posting all 54 of these pages to MfD. If any of them were deleted erroneously, they can be restored. —Centrx→talk • 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So take it upon your own shoulders to undelete the set and list it under one single, five-day MfD; no one has objections for multiple pages on a nom. ~ PseudoSudo 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as one who deals with sockpuppets, keeping these kinds of pages really isn't very helpful, and I wholly support removing them. The things that vandals do--page blanking, page moves, insertion of inappropriate material--are readily recognizable as things which are bad for the encyclopedia and should be reverted. We don't need these monuments and shrines. I wholly support getting rid of them. Badlydrawnjeff is laboring under the mistaken idea that vandal pages have something to do with encyclopedia and fall under the rules which govern content. They don't. They're cruft. The community exists to serve the encyclopedia. You're here to serve the encyclopedia. If it's good for the encyclopedia it stays. If it isn't then it goes. If you don't agree with these propositions then you'd better go too, because you're here for the wrong reasons. Now, there is space for a debate as to whether these are useful and should be kept. The recent CfD debates suggest a general consensus to delete most of them, to the horror of vandals. Cyde, as always, has perhaps been exuberant in his interpretation of events. He does that. He also might be right. Instead of quibbling over process, let's ask whether he's right that we should nuke these pages. Mackensen (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Save for the LTA pages etc. (as necessary) Doc and Cyde are right. Less vandal monumentalizing and more encyclopedic work. (→Netscott) 16:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's funny, if he didn't act so rashly, we'd not be "vandal monumentalizing" to begin with. If you want more "encyclopedic work," start restraining the people who drag us away from it with their unilateral actions. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I always giggle when I see someone call admin actions "unilateral" - as if some of us have a lil monkey on our shoulder that presses the delete button the same time we do :) FWIW, I have yet to see any argument for keeping the pages and I support the deletions. Shell 16:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, you've got, by far more comments on this topic than anyone. Nobody is dragging you from anything but yourself. Bastique▼ _voir 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Damn straight I do. I'm also not the one preaching about doing more "encyclopedic work." --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I for one support deletion of all vandal trophy-cabinets. They glorify wrongdoing, and very likely do more harm than good. Vandals are vermin and should be reverted, blocked, and otherwise ignored. I also agree with Mackensen that there may be a few cases where forensic information is useful, but it is in a small minority of vandal pages: we need to discuss which may be in this category. Antandrus (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Mackensen, the thing is, where is a new user going to find information about a "prominent" (for lack of a better word) vandal if he runs into one? For example, how was I going to find out, back when I was a newbie, to look for the tell-tale signs of WoW? Or better yet, if I hadn't had found the page where it was documented, wouldn't I have been a bit unprepared to be an admin? Where would we have written the IP information when it came to the Squidward vandal a while back? IIRC, someone used it to make some phone calls to the ISP. I do agree that sometimes these pages are created unnecesarily, but it feels like you're throwing the baby along with the bathwater, and that many of these pages should not have been deleted. At the same time, explosive and spectacular antics like those seen here just distracts those who are actually trying to edit articles for a while and run into the latest meta-turf war. Titoxd 16:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So, should we delete most of Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse, too? When subpages for individual vandals aren't useful, then nether are subsections for individual vandals on WP:LTA. --Conti|✉ 16:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, but this is exactly the threshold that needs to be debated. There's a difference in quality and scope: for example, some of the dedicated pages have their own logos and art work for specific vandals. This is the glorification that needs to go. Google also picks up these individual pages. Antandrus (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone want to take this to deletion review? --Ixfd64 07:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow (pun intended), lots of heat, some light emerging - dons asbestos suit and medium strength sunglasses. Let's keep it simple folks. Doc made a very sensible post further up the page seeking comments to help guage feeling on the matter, then lobbed Category:Wikipedia_blocked_imposters and all sub cats onto CfD. Cyde is now speedily deleting much of the vandal related LTA pages, citing WP:DENY. This has been decried as circumvention of process and has upset some people. That's the heat.

The light that's emerging seems to be a general recognition that the vandals should not be rewarded with immortalisation by whatever means (category, own LTA page, templates, specific logo's etc), but that some of the LTA pages are actually useful for dealing with the problems while still current. I would agree with that and suggest that a simplified heirarchy is adopted for the whole vandal fighting infrastructure:

• No "imposter of Vandal X on Wheels" categories and other vandal / sock / username block categories whatsoever. Just maintain a single indefblock category.
• A single template for indefblocked Users pages {{indefblockeduser}}. No "Sockpuppet of ...", "Impersonator of ..." templates etc. The block log should be explicit as to the reasons for the indef block, nothing more is needed, placing it in the single indefblock category.
• LTA pages should be created if required to deal with serious vandalism, but deleted when the immediate threat posed has clearly subsided.

Perhaps over simplistic, but the current infrastructure is out of control. I think we need to head back towards first principles, simplify the process and eliminate the free publicity which many of these juveniles seek and which keeps them coming back in their droves. Just my 50p worth :-) --Cactus.man ✍ 08:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm late to this discussion. I'm also not a fan of the vandal glorification pages and am quite pleased to see them gone. Process, however, would have been fairly easy to follow here by means of an MfD on the lot -- which would pretty much have been the discussion that eventually happened here, and seems to be in favour of the deletion of the pages? -- Samir धर्म 09:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

IAR

On Ignore All Rules: The concept is important to Misplaced Pages. The nature of the concept makes it fundamental to the working of Misplaced Pages. It has a long tradition, and deep and subtle meaning.

In other words, the capability of not doing everything by-the-process is fundamental to wikipedia. That's why it's a pillar. But again, that's only crazy jimbo opinion -- Drini 16:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not a pillar, per se, simply a Jimbo decree, and one that we'd hope taht the rest of us in the trenches would have grown out of. "Long deep tradition" doesn't mean it makes sense now, and perhaps a wider discussion is in order since people are interpreting things the way they are. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been a pillar for a long time. IT's the 5th pillar and has existed much before this (it was here when I joined a half and year ago). Jimbo just reinforced its policy status. I know you find it disturbing, but that's the way it is. You may want to make it stop being policy, go ahead and try. But now it IS policy. It is supported by jimbo (who's higher than even arbcomm), and we're following policy. Now, I think the discussion about the desysopping has ended, and if there are other topics, they can be discussed at proper places. -- Drini 16:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting the pillar for your own agenda here. We don't have firm rules because we come to decisions largely on consensus, have no binding decisions, and our policies are fluid with the times. Now, I don't think the discussion is over about desyssopping - at some point, the community's patience with Cyde is over, and we may be very close to that point. Hiding behind IAR doesn't address the overbearing situation. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

We're makign progress. YUou know acknoledge it's a pillar. And all policies MUST derive from the pillars. I think you're the one with the agenda, trying to mislead people thinking that IAR is not a pillar and it's not policy, and that was just recently added by jimbo, all of three claims being false. -- Drini 16:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, actually. I do not acknowledge that IAR is a pillar, I do not mislead anyone because IAR is not a pillar, and IAR was NOT a policy as listed until very recently. I was wrong about it not being a policy, absolutely, but that's because, well, it wasn't until it got snuck back in. I'll work to change that, but the other two, no, I do not agree with your interpretation one bit. I question your ability to administer with this in mind, knowing what I know now. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, I'm blocking you for 3 hours so you can calm down. When you return, please keep your rhetoric firmly in check, and maintain civility. Nandesuka 16:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this block. pschemp | talk 16:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this block. What has he done that wasn't civil? Disagreeing with popular opinion isn't auotmatically incivil. --W.marsh 16:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That is absolutely uncalled for; can you provide diffs of disruption? ~ PseudoSudo 16:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. He's (fairly civilly) expressing his disagreement; are we blocking people for merely that now? Kirill Lokshin 16:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff is getting on my nerves. I do not think, however, that is grounds for blocking and agree with W.marsh. Bastique▼ _voir 16:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The only thing annoying is this pushing for dysysoping Cyde bit (aren't RfC's and ArbCom for that sort of talk?) but I agree with others that he shouldn't be blocked. (→Netscott) 17:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

He's been unblocked, and of course I will not re-block him. I remind him, however, that he should be addressing arguments to topics, and not ad hominem. Nandesuka 17:03, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

(Quadruple Edit Conflict) WP:DENY is only an essay and it is treated by everyone as a policy. Anomo 16:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not. It is just a good idea. That's enough. --Doc 17:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So if it's a good idea, why don't we try to convince people of it and make it an acceptable policy guideline instead of forcing it? I have no issue with the idea, either, but, obviously, a lot of other people do. Didn't we learn anything from the userbox charade? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that some people spend far too much time on things that don't involve the encyclopedia. Mackensen (talk) 17:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am indeed starting to wonder what you did learn from that affair. I sure didn't learn that process takes precedence over all else. Rather, it demonstrated that both blind adherence to process and blind being-stupid are harmful, and can form the two sides of a wheel war. Common sense is what is called for, and it is never always process or always ignoring it. The proper way to carry on a discussion in our hopefully common sense-based community is to argue the merits, not the process, of the situation. Dmcdevit·t 17:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally? I saw that policy by fiat causes situations to be resolved in a matter of months, with lots of waiting and gnashing of teeth, regardless of its merits, while a rational discussion before action can often come to the same desired conclusion harmoniously. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, you saw in the userbox wars that a rational discussion before action can come to the desired conclusion harmoniously? Did I miss the part where that happened?

My non-facetious point, which I don't wish to lose in the tone there, is that the idea that policy can be hammered out in discussion without testing through bold application and vigorous participation in the resulting discussions, is an untested hypothesis, and one that I don't find at all compelling. Misplaced Pages is a little bit like laws and sausage - the squeamish ought not to watch them being made. -GTBacchus 19:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think rational discussion was ever seriously attempted, not that massive deletions would have helped the case. I do see many controversial policies work via discussion and consensus, however - for instance, CSD A7 is a great example. Even WP:BLP, which I'm not a huge fan of, didn't occur overnight. The policy was created as the issues were discussed and slowly implemente. There's absolutely no reason this couldn't have been handled the same way, especially given the amount of work people put in regarding combating vandalism. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the userbox situation wasn't handled all that well. I like to think that a few of us were attempting rational discussion, but there was enough noise to drown most of that out. I don't know much about the background of A7 or WP:BLP. I know Jimbo asked us, as a community, to discuss the reasons that userboxes are a bad idea, but most people couldn't be bothered to have those discussions, and many who tried found themselves sidetracked and running after red herring after red herring about censorship and disclosure of bias and everything else. I wish more people saw more value in more communication. -GTBacchus 20:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No one is forcing anything. I posted to this board and spelled out what I was doing and asked for any reasoned objections. I sent the categories to CSD, where an overwhelming consensus (almost unanimous) is agreeing with my analysis. I'm sorry if I didn't jump through whatever procedural hoop you think I ought to - but consensus is clearly with me. Otherwise, I'd have stopped, or been reverted. THat's how things work round here. That's policy and consensus in action. Don't tell me there's lack of debate - we're debating it everywhere, and we are clearly winning the arguments. You are in a minority here. I don't claim IAR as a justification - I claim common sense and consensus--Doc 17:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, some of us can't revert you, which is part of the problem. It's not really policy and consensus in action, but I know that you and I have fundamentally different ideas as to how things should go here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this discussion here should end. There is no malfeasiance here, by anyone, that is so clear-cut that it calls for quick administrative action; thus this is the wrong page. Discussions of whether WP:DENY is a good idea should take place at its talk page. Discussions of whether people should be desysopped should take place at Misplaced Pages:Requests for Arbitration. Discussions of the place of IAR, process, etc. should take place on the mailing list (per item 6 here). -- SCZenz 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. Except for the part about nandesuka blocking Badlydrawnjeff, that belongs here in any case. I find Jeff's comments in this matter not very helpful and swimming against the tide but I am not sure I support that block, and want to voice my opposition (even though it's been lifted). It feels like a block by someone involved in a content dispute to me. ++Lar: t/c 18:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the concern, but I was unblocked, he's not reblocking, and it happens. It got reversed easily, as I wish most wrong decisions would be, and it's a done deal on this end. I have no ill will toward him, and I don't intend to push that issue further - mistakes are made, and he's stated that he's not going to reblock. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Expressing disagreement with a policy or pseudo-policy is never a reason for a block, not even temporarily. I am both appalled and disappointed by this administrative action. At no time has badlydrawnjeff been uncivil throughout this thread. Silensor 18:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. It was an absolute shocker. But since an apology has been made and no hard feelings appear to be present, the debate moves on. Badgerpatrol 18:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this a User:General Tojo-related discussion? I never really saw much practical use for the vandal-tagging. I sometimes create redirects for some block-evading ips, mostly for my own memory. Why not just create redirects when needed? El_C 19:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

DRAMA!!! That's what we want to see! Nuke all worthless pages.--MONGO 20:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

(3X Edit Conflict) The problem is a lack of documentation. WP:DENY says it's a wikipedia essay. The only information about wikipedia essays is this tiny thing in the category that says, "Essays about Misplaced Pages and related topics. These are not policy and are primarily opinion pieces." I'm not speaking of whether this page deletion was right or not, I am saying the wikipedia essays need some more documentation, such as an agreed upon page describing when best to use them. Anomo 20:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Essays are used some decisions. I've seen WP:SNOW used as a justification to close an AFD early. Hbdragon88 04:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That should emphatically not be allowed. IMO, any deletion debate that's closed per WP:SNOW deserves an immediate DRV. jgp _C 04:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Some essays are interpretations or extrapolations of other policies and guidelines that are heavily contingent or tentative or not fast-fixed, and there is also a difference between a truly personal essay someone just posted, and a more general explanatory essay agreed by many people. —Centrx→talk • 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Criminy! I only have to write a persuasive essay to get my way? Cool! Why have I been waiting around trying to get people to agree with me, before? I have lots and lots and lots of ideas that I can turn into essays. One of them is "Those who cite IAR are out of arguments and afraid of discussion." I can expand on that for a full screen. This has made my day! Geogre 12:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Hehehe - kind of hit the nail on the head there Geogre ... --Cactus.man ✍ 22:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything offensive or harmful to the encyclopedia in what Cyde is doing. Metamagician3000 03:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

He is censoring. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly right, Geogre. I know you've done it before with varying amounts of success. If I were to really really disagree with your essay, I'd just write a counter-essay, but often you do write wise words. Did you know the "how to apply Ignore All Rules" and Bold Revert Discuss pages yet? If you hadn't, I suggest taking a look there before you start typing, perhaps they already cover much of what you're saying? That might save some time. :-) -- Kim Bruning 13:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ignore All Rules analysis

For an admin to ignore all rules, they need to provide a clear motivation and document why they are ignoring particular guidelines and following others.

In this case, that motivation and documentation was provided at Deny recognition. So it's not true that Cyde is trying to avoid explaining hir actions.

Deny recognition is not yet supported by everyone. That's ok, you are permitted to be bold and apply new guidelines anytime you like. You do have to expect to negotiate with people on the best way to apply them, and you do have to expect things won't go perfectly.

As per Bold revert discuss, "Out of process" is not a valid excuse to oppose any such action. You will have to provide solid logical arguments why your idea is superior to the solution chosen. Since we're talking about a process you're intimately familiar with, this should not be a problem. If you fail to logically argue your position (even with such a large advantage), then that process deserves to be overruled.

When you do have logical arguments for and/or against, please document them at WP:DENY and its talk page. What things did Cyde do right, what did he do wrong? Problems are inevitable when applying some new guideline. Try to help Cyde sort them out.

Of course, if the guideline is not viable at all, we'll find that out quickly enough too, and we document that, and people won't take this kind of action in future.

The bottom line is that if you think that following process is important, it still matters *which* process to be following right now, and how correct is that process? We have a process for things happening out of process. Follow it!

Kim Bruning 12:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

A round of applause please! Very nice analysis, AFAIC anyway. --kingboyk 13:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Except WP:BOLD deals with articles. Policy pages/guidelines aren't articles. Also, even if WP:BOLD dealt with policy and guideline pages, there's that little "don't be reckless" part. We're at a point where we, as a community, should be able to move away from "ignoring all rules," because there's plenty of input which wasn't necessarily there when IAR was incorporated. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Bold has often been applied to guidelines (Radiant used it there often). Bold Revert Discuss certainly applies to guidelines. I've already pointed out that Cyde was not reckless, because the reasons for his actions are well documented. Your concerns wrt Ignore All Rules itself may or may not be valid, but they're not relevant here and now. I'm certainly willing to discuss them with you elsewhere and/or later, of course! Please stick to discussing the logic of Cyde's actions right now. Kim Bruning 13:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Did someone throw some stuff out of the window? I haven't noticed a difference myself. --Alf 22:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

RfC

I think it would be more apporite to contiune this disscusion at RfC instead on the adimn notice board.---Scott3 _{Talk Contributions Count: 950+} 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Self identified underage user

While fixing move vandalism on Misplaced Pages pages today, I came across Meleh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). This user identifies as being six years old. Should this user be blocked under the continually written WP:CHILD? Ryūlóng 00:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What precisely does the user have to do with WP:CHILD? ~ PseudoSudo 00:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to be posting any personal information. What's the problem here? --Ryan Delaney 00:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-identifying at 6 may not be wise (and it might not hurt to say so) but, beyond perhaps putting the user's talk page on our watchlists, I see no reason to act. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 00:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:CHILD is only a propsed poicly and I agree watching his talk page but should we tell him that there is a concern about him being only 6 years old?---Scott3 _{Talk Contributions Count: 950+} 01:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My observations:

• User hasn't revealed her identity yet.
• Is creating semi-useless, but valid redirects (i.e. obscure scientific name for animal species -> common name)
• Lack of communication (has yet to respond to anything on her talk page)
• Does not provide meaningful edit summaries
• Most worrying, does not have a good grasp of spelling or punctuation. eg: Assinus (misspelling of Asinus) and "(moved Acinonyx rex to King cheetah: because that,s it,s name"

I say she should be blocked for 3-4 years (might as well be indef). At her age, the quality of her contributions are dubious at best and trying to convey any notion of "policies" to her would be a futile exercise. --  Netsnipe  ►  00:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Guys, let's think about this one for a few seconds. Not to sound evil or anything, but what are the chances that this user is 6? I have members of my kin older than that and members that are adults but are afraid of editing Misplaced Pages and are unsure about it. This just seems too strange to be actually true. Yanksox 00:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say that grasp of English and saying that "I'm 6 years old" is enough evidence for such a block. If this user is 37 and is saying he/she is six that is even worse. Ryūlóng 00:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This seems like as good as time as any to trot out my perennial complaint that WP:CHILD's directives are far too tame: I don't think underage persons should be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages at all. That's largely unenforceable, of course, but at least Misplaced Pages can point to that policy and say, at least in principle, kids aren't allowed here. We don't really need the editorial input of children anyway, do we? Not only is it a sane public-image policy (in these times more than ever), but it's good for the quality of the encyclopedia. wikipediatrix 00:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

How can you have a perennial complaint about a draft policy that is less than a week old? :) Thatcher131 (talk) 00:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I knew someone would jump on that :) I've been making the perennial complaint about children editing Misplaced Pages since long before the advent of WP:CHILD, but I was condensing things for brevity's sake. wikipediatrix 00:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're not serious, are you? We have several very capable administrators who are "underage" where I live... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 02:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm dead serious. What if one of the many editors who was flirting with User:Publicgirluk and begging her to email them more sperm-faced porn pics had turned out to be a child? What if she responded and did so? What if parents found out and went ballistic? What if it blew up into a very-bad-for-Misplaced Pages news story? Something like this IS going to happen, it's only a matter of time. It's not a matter of if, but when, and it will bring me no joy to be able to say "I told you so". wikipediatrix 13:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

They blocked Publicgirduk?! Oh my god, what is going on? Lapinmies 16:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, man, I cannot disagree more; the absolute, complete, total, 100% wrong way to go about this is to ban all "underage" users (and, given that Wiki is a global encyclopedia, there is no one "underage" threshold). The absolute, complete, total, 100% right way to go about this is to educate our users, particularly among the youngest, of the potential that Misplaced Pages and/or any website holds (within our purview, of course, Misplaced Pages is not your parents). Until the necessary technology is sufficiently widespread to make age restrictions effective, any attempt to implement your "solution" would, if taken to its logical conclusion, shut down the Worldwide Web altogether (and, no, I'm not exaggerating). RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This could be a bogus user identity, of course, but another possibility is that this is a precocious first- or second-grader who loves animals (the user's edits are all about animal species), sitting at the keyboard with Mom or Dad or older sibling doing the typing. No WP:CHILD issue here per lack of identifying information as noted above, but there may be other issues. There's no evidence that the user has ever noticed his/her talk page or the warnings on it. I disagree strongly with Wikipediatrix about excluding all "underage" (under what age??) persons from the project (though the strength of my opposition could depend on what age is meant), but this probably isn't the place for that discussion. Newyorkbrad 00:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing here seems to justify a block at this time. Just careful monitoring. If the user's spelling issues become more difficult or if some other issue (such as identifying information) crops up we should take action then. JoshuaZ 02:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Then there were the massive amounts of double redirects and the minor page move vandalism created over this user's joining at Misplaced Pages. At least now we know that there may be a six year old editor out there and we can help her, if need be. Ryūlóng 02:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• It may eventually be a problem if she fails to respond to things on her talk page when we need to talk to her, but for now, we should just keep an eye on her. As noted above, a number of editors are underage, and that's generally not a problem if they behave well (same standards as adults). We should be careful how we try to bring her into the community, but we should at least make a good effort. Imagine what kind of an editor she'll be in 10 years if she grows up with our culture (provided things work out, of course). --Improv 02:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• It would totally be inappropriate to block just because of this person's listed age. If they aren't giving out personal information and aren't causing lots of problems, leave them alone. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. - FrancisTyers · 19:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• We (Misplaced Pages) should all wait on voicing opinions on such matters until WP:OFFICE responds. COPPA is very serious legislation; it is is essential that the Foundation's lawyer address this issue. Teke 04:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

COPPA doesn't even come near what Misplaced Pages does. COPPA only applies if you're taking personal information from a user (and we're not; the optional e-mail address is not personal info anyway). Even if COPPA applied to a user's posts, Misplaced Pages's common carrier status would keep us exempt in the same way that if a child were to use e-mail to reveal personal info, the e-mail and internet providers would not be liable. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I frequently act like one online). Ral315 (talk) 05:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to contribute to this discussion if I may. This individual would not be the only young editor on WP. My daughter is also an editor, and she is 7. This was her own idea after reading a book that she liked and asking me to look it up to see if it was on WP (she sees me editing WP frequently). She is well-versed in not revealing personal information, due to an online game at some kid's site (Disney or something like it) that she has been playing for years. She started using a computer when she was 2 - logging herself in on my Linux system and using Netscape/Mozilla to visit a selection of kids sites I put on the menu bar. When I switched her to a Mac before she could read, she complained that it was harder to use as several things like logging out had to be done on menus which assume the user could read :-) In any case, she has agreed only to edit WP with supervision, and I've helped her with a bit of wording and use of a template, but basicly the article A Moose for Jessica is her work. —Hanuman Das 01:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again with the undiscussed page moves by Meleh (talk • contribs) again

1. 08:54, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Seal (moved Talk:Seal to Talk:Seal (disambiuguation): ?)
2. 08:54, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Seal (moved Seal to Seal (disambiuguation): ?)
3. 08:53, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Guanaco (moved Guanaco to Guanaco (disambiguation): ?)
4. 05:24, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Amphicyonidae (Redirecting to Amphicyonid) (top)
5. 00:49, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Talk:Biota (moved Talk:Biota to Talk:Biota (disambiguation): ?)
6. 00:49, 1 September 2006 (hist) (diff) m Biota (moved Biota to Biota (disambiguation): ?)

--  Netsnipe  ►  06:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I put a note on the User:Meleh page. They have edited it and thus are at least aware of its existence and may notice that message. I would suggest putting links to User talk:Meleh and/or the article talk page of edit summaries when reverting and otherwise trying to point them towards discussion. A minor dose of calm would not be out of order either. It isn't like we are dealing with thousands of page moves and massive disruption here. This is all minor stuff that can easily be set back if need be. --CBD 14:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I think this discussion has outlived its usefulness at this time. El_C 00:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Giano & WP:CIVIL

Please see current discussion timelines on User talk:Lar, User talk:Giano, User talk:Kylu & Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Carnildo 3. Giano opposes Carnildo's RfA (which I have no interest in) and harasses Lar for his support of Carnildo, then starts personal attacks against said user. I warn him for civility problems, he takes it personally, and continues, implying that I had no authority or reason to block him (even though I pointed out the civility concerns). I've blocked him for 48 hours in the sincere hope that he'll cool down and start reacting civilly in the future. It was suggested to me to post this so record my motives for said block, considering that Giano may decide that I'm biased against him somehow.

Fun, ne? ~Kylu (u|t) 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Fun, no. I did unblock, since the situation was, in my opinion, cooling down (I have been following it all too closely and if I had a stress meter it would be way up there) and this block was (and in all honestly still is) likely to reverse that. It is not policy to block as punishment for incivilty or not assuming good faith; blocks should be for preventing (further) disruption and I neither believe Giano's invective has risen to disruptive levels in the first place nor that this block was going to prevent more of the same. However, I am generally friendly with Giano, and thus admit I may be vulnerable to some bias here and will bite my lip and be quiet if anybody says I was wrong to unblock and overturns me. I am going to sleep now. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 05:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You've done the unblock, so I'm done with the situation. I don't block as punishment, since last I checked that wasn't policy (except possibly in the case of 3RR, where to me it seems that's part of the reason they made policy as such, not that I agree with it) and I am loathe to "punish" someone when admins are just "users with more buttons" anyway. Anyway, with the large number of attacks ongoing between my warning to Giano and when I logged back in, I felt the situation was escalating out of control. Again, I don't know Giano, Carnildo, you (nice to meet you, though!) and Lar only vaguely. As you've said you're friendly with Giano, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd keep an eye on the situation and do as needed: My hope was mostly to give Giano some cool-down time so he wouldn't spend it attacking others instead of being productive. C'est la vie. ~Kylu (u|t) 05:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Carnildo seriously wronged Giano and has never shown any contrition about it. Partly for that reason, I have opposed Carnildo's RFA. I strongly support the idea that something should be done to remove the damaging note placed by Carnildo in Giano's block log. That, however, does not give Giano a licence to address Lar, in particular, in the way he did (see the exchange on Lar's talk page). It went way beyond ordinary incivility into quite ugly attacks of a personal nature. A 48-hour block for that was entirely justified in my opinion. I fully support Kylu's action, and believe that this block by Kylu should not have been lifted, especially by someone who admits to being "friendly" with the person blocked. Lifting blocks in these circumstances sends the wrong message about what kind of behaviour is acceptable here. We should support, not undermine, fellow admins who are prepared to impose blocks for such behaviour. If the blocking policy is thought not to cover it, the blocking policy needs to be updated to reflect the reality that such conduct is unacceptable. Metamagician3000 09:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I add that I have not overturned Bunchofgrapes, in the spirit of not wheel warring, but part of me feels I should have. Metamagician3000 09:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned Giano's behaviour had already reached disruptive proportions, and a block was proper. Unblocking without discussion was not. --kingboyk 10:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur with kingboyk. Also, I have given Giano a {{civil2-n}} for his unacceptable message on Kylu's talk page, attacking this user's integrity and worthyness of adminship. I would normally have given a {{npa2-n}} or 3 (not sure which),but I felt that, given this user's previous incivility, this was a general problem related to respect of other editors, and as a result turned into a personal attack. If we can quell this user's breaches of the civility policy, I think that personal attacks like this would stop. Anyone who disagrees with my judgement of Giano's comment on Kylu's talk page, please discuss it here. I am more than happy to concur with concensus over this edit. Daniel.Bryant 10:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that Giano's comments warranted a block. Yes, he was ugly and over-the-top, but blocks should not be used lightly in these situations (this is exactly how the whole pedophile wheelwar started in the first place). Now the block's lifted all is well. The Land 11:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

With respect, the wheel warring problem was undoing other admins (including undoing Jimbo, if I recall correctly) without discussion. That's wheel warring. So, if there's any parallel in this case it's not the blocking it's the unblocking. --kingboyk 11:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The basic problem was trigger-happy use of admin powers, and this was borne out by the ArbCom judgement on the case. As I say, I am with Bunchofgrapes and think Kylu's block was borderline in policy and probably a bad idea in the circumstances. Handing out blocks to other users-in-good-faith because they are misbehaving somewhat is not what admins are here to do. The Land 11:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This limited-term block for egregiously insulting behaviour toward Lar and other respected users is not in any way analogous to the ... let's all agree ... outrageous indefinite blocks that were imposed by Carnildo and led to his desysopping. Being a good-faith user is not a licence to attack others. Repeated misbehaviour should have consequences, not as punishment but as a deterrent to further such misbehaviour.

Really, Kylu's decisive but relatively conservative action should have been supported, or even commended, by the rest of us. I've never encountered Kylu before, but from what I've seen here I have confidence in her. Metamagician3000 11:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLOCK does not state that users who misbehave should be blocked, nor users who are incivil. The proper procedure for drawing attention to these problems is raising discussion on ANI or alternatively opening an RFC. That is why blocking Giano in the circumstances was a borderline decision (though I can see the logic to it). I am also very unimpressed with people using formalistic language (e.g. 'User blocked' in comments directed at the blocked person) and by people saying they have 'given out' standard warning templates to established users. None of that is in the spirit of the community. The Land 11:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The written policy is too soft on incivility, IMHO, and I am not at all sure that it reflects actual good practice. Written policy follows good practice (such as we saw here from Kylu), not the other way around. There should be consequences to gross misbehaviour. Be that as it may, as has been said before, this went far beyond a one-off insult or sarcastic remark in the heat of the moment to ugly, gratuitous, premeditated, and repeated personal attacks. Giano arrived at Lar's talk page unannounced to insult him. That is clearly disruptive. I am very surprised and disappointed to see admins effectively condoning Giano's quite outrageous behaviour - there is now no incentive for him to stop it or desist in future - and undermining sound admin action by Kylu. It is quite obvious from the above discussion that there would have been no consensus to overturn the block if it had been discussed here first. Again, I believe Kylu should be commended for firm but relatively conservative action. Metamagician3000 12:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Well done Kylu. --kingboyk 12:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Finding this thread here is no surprise to me. In my conversations with Giano yesterday I got the impression that he wanted to keep a controversy going and wanted to push the envelope to see how far he could go. His edit to as user who had last conversed with him a full 20 hours earlier, is the clearest indication of this to me (why wait so long unless you need a new sparring partner?). I think much can be learned by how someone reacts when they are blocked. Do they ask for an unblock and apologize, or do they go on a personal attack spree? Even if one believes that 48 hours is too long, I think it would have been better to let Giano to have the first opportunity to request the unblock (he was offline the whole time), and proceed based on how he behaves when he does. NoSeptember 12:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I've tried my best to be unfaliling civil in this whole affair (feedback welcome), even soliciting further input after others warned Giano, but I do think he crossed the line. I did not ask anyone to block, I was just going to let him go on. That said, I am not sure I agree that unblocking him without discussion here first and also without an unblock request by him was the best approach. Needless to say, despite the fact that this might well earn me undying emnity from Giano (which point I think bears noting as something that's inappropriate) I support this block. But of course, I'm biased (and naiive, stupid, a fool, incompetent and devious as well, apparently, according to Giano). ++Lar: t/c 13:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I should remind all involved that Lar and Giano have interacted amicably for a long time. Further, WP:NPA is only a policy that says, "Be nice." There are no sanctions adherent. The point is that one of the things that Giano has been irritated about, if I may be so bold, is the way that people have been tossing out blocks and such for "not nice" and "I don't like that." The block is, to some degree, gasoline on a fire. Speaking for myself, I think a lot more talking folks down is necessary and a lot less blocking of well-established folks for getting angry. Geogre 13:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  I love Geogre like clotted cream loves scones, but I'm disturbed by this growing trend to treat Misplaced Pages as a tea party where we are supposed to pretend to have not heard when someone has acted like a complete prat, as Giano has in this case. A brief block for a cooling-off period is not only good for the encyclopedia, but good for the user, as it's letting them know where the boundaries are. My only criticism of the block in this case is that 2 days was, in my opinion, too long. But a few hours would have sent the message and given Giano a chance to reconsider his prattish behavior. I know we all want to be nice guys, mes amis, but it's truly OK to send someone outside of the room if they're throwing a temper tantrum. Take off the white gloves and be willing to get your hands a little dirty once in a while. Nandesuka 13:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  Sorry. I just thought 48 hr was long for cooling. 3 hr might do, but...look, what I wanted to wag my finger over wasn't any of that, and certainly not the fine point of what's cooling and what simmering. I just wanted to warn folks about incivility blocks with well established users. It's a tough and thick soup we ... drink or something... when we get into that. I'm glad Lar is ready to forgive, and I don't condone or support Giano's loss of temper, but I really hate NPA blocks. Geogre 15:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• I tried to do exactly that (talking him down) as did others, as can be seen on his talk page. Sometimes it doesn't work. NoSeptember 13:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The corollary being well-established editors should know when to step back from posting when they are angry. I understand Giano's anger, but if he cannot discuss matters without calling someone (who themselves is a well-established editor) the laundry list of slights he threw at Lar then he is being disruptive. I wouldn't have blocked for it personally, and I certainly wouldn't have unblocked without discussing it with Kylu (another well-established editor). Syrthiss 13:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC) note this was intended as a reply to geogre, but the vagaries of edit conflicts made it appear far below Syrthiss

To Geogre: (3x edit conflict!) We used to interact amicably. I would not characterise his interaction with me in this affair as "amicable" but the shoe is entirely on his foot I feel, as I have, in my view, remained civil and open to input (feedback welcome). I'm happy to forgive and forget though, if he returns to being amicable and stops behaving in a manner that I feel is incivil and uncalled for. Forgiveness is something that we could use more of around here. Giano's anger is based on his being wronged, the wrongee not apologising or showing any acknowledgement of wrongness and Giano's subsequent inability (justified or not) to forgive. Forgiveness even when you don't get an apology might be a good thing sometimes instead of holding grudges. My expectation here, unfortunately, is that Giano will add me to the list of those he holds grudges against, which is really too bad. Also I think there was a lot of trying to talk Giano down from several admins (and myself) before he got this block. I note his friends were notably absent in trying to talk him down though. Where were they? 13:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lar (talk • contribs)

Well, for my part, I knew nothing of it until I saw this. No kidding. I'm terribly uniformed, and usually about as helpful in a dispute as a bowling ball at a baseball game. Still.... Geogre 14:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Kingboyk and Syrthiss both seem to think I unblocked without discussing it with Kylu first, which is not the case. See User talk:Kylu, and especially "If anyone unblocks him, I have no problems with it, but I'd still encourage him to voluntarily not edit until he's finished introspection. If you're an admin, you're free to do so also." I'd also ask people to take a closer look at the timing of the block in relation to the height of the incilivity -- it was three hours after Giano's last post and more than 12 since his last post to User talk:Lar. That said, am I entirely confident I made the right decision? No. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, then I rescind that point. :) Syrthiss 15:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Captain Obvious here again with some perspective. We are involved in a rather radioactive Rfa now featuring a highly controversial candidate. A certain level of sparks should be expected and allowed for. Moreover, Giano was one of the main principles WRONGED by said candidate. He is entitled to express some anger, even if he wasnt one of the most prolific and best editors on this 'pedia (which to my mind means he is even more entitled to have his mild eccentricities indulged). What I truly find disturbing about this mess is, most of those harassing and threatening Giano, are from the opposite camp in Carnildo's Rfa. It is as if they are trying to bully and intimidate him into withdrawing his opposition and it looks as if they may have finally succeeded:. Here's another obvious fact, Kylu, who wasn't even a member of Misplaced Pages during Carni's last, failed, Rfa, decides to play the politeness police and charge into a situation she knows next to nothing about, pass judgement on my old nemesis and ban him for an excessive time period. In doing so she made an already bad situation, which was already starting to cool off, even worse. She should at the very least get a harsh scolding from the more experienced and (presumably) more fair minded admins. But this is not the case. I'm increasingly appalled by the way admins here mistreat not only new but veteran contributors. Without editors like Giano, Panairjdde, Sam Spade and even Ghirlandajo, this place would be a much bigger joke than it already is. I just spent the last several hours trying to improve one my my friend's articles...opppsie I meant one of the PROJECT's articles. I did so out of friendship, to keep a promise I made and because I believe that the Wiki (sub) project of which we are both members is one of the few things left here which still works and is worthwhile. I did not do it because I believe that I'm contributing to some bold new experiment in human knowledge nor to help make "Jimbo's dream" a reality. And I certainly did not do it because I still believe this is an enjoyable and encouraging environment in which to work or even to visit anymore. Especially when those who have little to do with actually BUILDING this place take such an active role in harassing, threatening and discouraging those few who still do. So much for making "the internet not suck". The "revolution" is dead...and this glorious, bold new experiment has become just another shitty website. I would be surprised if after the way he has been mistreated, Giano ever again contributes here in any meaningful way. Niz job gang. Admins need to see beyond the heat of the moment and take a user's contribution history and edit count into account, before they start handing down threats and disproportionate punishments, like circus clowns doling out cotton candy and balloons.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 21:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hiya! Just to clarify a couple points: I actually invited Bunchofgrapes to unblock if he felt it appropriate, so no wheel warring, and I certainly don't have any problems with the action. While I appreciate RDH's concern in the matter, I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a high edit count and numerous contributions, that they're immune from following policy like other users. That's a slope ripe for abuse, in my opinion. If it much matters, I did consult other admins on IRC before issuing the block, though as I'm the one responsible for the action, I'll not mention them by name. Ja mata ne. ~Kylu (u|t) 01:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo's RfA is so depressing; it really makes me question my involvement with this project. Maybe it's time to burn the bridges. El_C 04:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I just don't think Giano gets the point that civility is needed yet. See this revert. Characterising good faith suggestions and discussion as "sanctimonious claptrap" just really isn't very civil in my view. When I pointed that out, his (via edit summary reverting my comment) response missed the point, asking "what more must I do, support?" It's so NOT about support/oppose. It's about civility. Either he doesn't get that or he's being sarcastic... needs fixing in either case. I'm not advocating any blocking but if some of his friends could get to him and ask him to be civil, it would really be helpful. ++Lar: t/c 17:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Lar, I realize this may make some more guns swing round in my direction (as being Giano's friend), but to my eye this pursuit of having Giano "fixed" is beginning to look vengeful. Is it necessary to post on his page at all? To insist that he mustn't "remove discussion" from it? (He actually can remove stuff from his page, you know.) To demand that he "discuss things"? I recommend the section "reducing the impact" of WP:CIVIL to your wise consideration. "Do not answer offensive comments. Forget about them. Forgive the editor. Do not escalate the conflict... Walk away. Misplaced Pages is a very big place. Just go edit somewhere else for a while and return when tempers have cooled." Bishonen | talk 19:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC).

• Hey, everybody! One thing about this is that this situation is one of those rare ones where talking about it won't make it better. It seems to me that everyone has staked out a position, and we've all established that Giano is very upset, that Lar is affronted, that several people feel that the comments are too hot, one way or the other. Beyond that, there really isn't much of a way forward. Please, each of us be the better person, each of us lead the way by walking away. It would be great if, the next time an issue of high drama emerges, we again try not to be rattled. I aim this comment at everyone. The only way peace can occur, I think, is with all sides ignoring each other's barbs and baits for a bit. Geogre 19:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Strongly concur with Geogre. Newyorkbrad 19:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I'm affronted. I just don't think that "sanctimonious claptrap" has any place in an edit summary, especially when it was in a thread that was giving him useful and actionable advice about how to address his valid (and grevious) greviance. I note that Geogre and Bishie lecture me, but BoG had the good sense (without being asked, it happened while I was posting) to suggest to Giano that Giano needs to cool down a bit. He's the better friend if you ask me. (Giano unfortunately snapped back at his friend in turn) ++Lar: t/c 20:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I find the tone of this post unfortunately condescending, Lar :-( A bunch of people Giano was already clearly not wanting to hear from were posting on his page... indeed not a good idea right now. This "better friend" business sticks hard in my craw, as does the overfamiliar nickname for Bishonen in a post where you are taking her to task. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hunh. I thought I was lecturing everybody, including myself. <shrug> I'd guess that folks who are trying to calm down Giano would do it by e-mail, and that wouldn't be public. Also, I think Giano already knows that most of us want calm. Anyway, like I said, let's all go placid. Geogre 21:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Advice taken and agreed with, even if I screwed up earlier. :D Thanks for being a bastion of peace. :) ~Kylu (u|t) 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or has Giano (talk · contribs) been leaving a lot of vindictive messages with diffs showing others' edits? One of them criticized BoG's removal of the whole spate concerning Giano's actions on BoG's own talk page. Ryūlóng 23:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is just you, don't try and understand it now, it is all far too complicated. BoG will explain it to you, with infinite patience. Giano | talk 23:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To Geogre: Do you suggest we ignore comments he posts here too? Should we create a special class of user who is permitted to say whatever they want while we pretend not to see it? How do I sign up for this special right to abuse anyone I want without consequences? And if some people leave WP because nothing is done about the abuse they must endure, should we just say "Tough luck, sorry it happened"? I, for one, think the expectation of civility should apply to everyone. NoSeptember 23:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's what I was getting at here, though considering the amount of flak I'm getting over this (especially on irc and email) I'm just dropping it. The situation isn't worth me disrupting Misplaced Pages and getting blocked just to play "rules enforcer." I'm just afraid that eventually someone will do the "You know, Giano's really exhausted my patience" bit, and we'll be down one competent editor instead of getting to the problem early and teaching him to reconsider how he approaches others. :( ~Kylu (u|t) 23:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are teaching me a great deal Kylu, but what are you learning is the big question in all this nasty debacle Giano | talk 00:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Kylu, you didn't screw up earlier, and you still have my full confidence. Although I don't know you, I am deeply disappointed that you are having to take heat from colleagues who should be supporting you, when you've simply done your job. I still don't know why there is this feeling around among some admins that Giano has to be treated with kid gloves. His behaviour is unacceptable. He has responded badly to advice, warnings, and your totally justified block. Community patience with him should be running out by now - mine certainly is. However, I feel at the moment that my hands are tied by some of the comments above. Giano apparently has a licence to run riot and cause disruption, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. As NoSeptember says, he has become a member of a new class of untouchable users. I'm distressed that this is happening. Metamagician3000 00:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Giano: Simple question, help teach me: Do you feel that, due to your editcounts, contributions, or past situation, that you're exempt from WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:AGF? If a user was blocked previously and the admin who performed the block was desysopped, does that mean that the user in question is forever immune to obeying said rules? ~Kylu (u|t) 00:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• One quiet Sunday evening six months ago, I stumbled on a conversation on this very page - I made two comments here and here for which I was indefinitely banned by Carnildo. Carnildo still regards this as "Hate Speech". Since the moment he blocked me he has never contacted me publicly or privately. Lar has described Carnildo as "brave" and having "the sort of attitude we need among admins". I have described Lar as a "fool" and variations thereof. For which Kylu attempted to block me for 48 hours. I stand by every word I have said. Now get on a and block me if you want to. I will be happy to be blocked for such an offence. Giano | talk 00:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• See also my two comments at the bottom of this WP:AN section. El_C 00:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.

Searching for "Chamoux"

Yesterday I successfully put the article "Benoît Chamoux" into production but when I search on "Chamoux" the article is not listed. Is there something that I need to do to update the indexing for search? Thanks, CCC Cclauss 08:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Make a redirect. Create a page called "Chamoux" with the content only reading "#REDIRECT ]". Danny Lilithborne 08:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, that may not be the best advice for two reasons:

1. Chamoux isn't the rarest name - there's a Jean Chamoux, photographer, Matthieu Chamoux, some kind of producer, Chamoux-sur-Gelon canton... we'd need a complex disambiguation page rather than a simple redirect, which may be more work than Cclauss is signing up for.
2. And even that won't solve the "Search" issue Cclauss is asking about. The issue with that is that the Misplaced Pages Search database can take several days to be fully updated with new articles. The only real cure for that is patience. It will come, grasshopper, it will come. AnonEMouse 21:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • I've created a disambiguation page for the two main Chamoux articles (Benoît and Jean). I normally don't include pages that don't have the disambigued word in their title in the disambiguation pages I create (so no links to the producer etcetera), but everyone's free to add those if they feel it is necessary of course. Fram 08:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Oh, it's not so simple at all, I'm afraid. In the French WP, Chamoux is primarily the canton, not a disambiguation at all, and I guess they should know. Here's "what links here" for the English page - both for the canton (or are they different cantons?), neither for either Benoit or Jean. It looks like using it for a name disambiguation is inappropriate. And using the administrator's noticeboard/incidents to discuss the fate of a minor dab page is even less appropriate, now that I think about it...AnonEMouse 13:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
        • For the moment, seeing what other articles exist, the current disambig page is the correct solution. What would you do? Create a Chamoux page that redirects to Chamoux (disambiguation)? That's overkill. What you can do, if you think it is necessary, is add a link on the Chamoux page to Cantons of the Savoie département. The page is not intended for name disambiguation only, it is intended for all disambiguation, but as there are no other articles for some specific Chamoux for the moment, no other items were needed there. I think I have followed Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation completely, but nothing there prohibits the adding of more articles to the page. Also remember that while a French canton may be the logical first page for a search term on the French Misplaced Pages, it is not necessarily so on an international one. By the way, the village Chamoux (the main article on the French Misplaced Pages has a massive 83 inhabitants. I do agree with one thing though; if this discussion is necessary, it should be done at either the article Chamoux (for the specifics) or at the WP:disambig page (for a more general discussion). Fram 19:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:POINT violations by Polaron (talk · contribs), massive page moves

Polaron (talk · contribs) has unilaterally moved dozens of pages, in violation of WP:POINT. Japanese cities in the form cityname, prefecturename were massively moved to cityname City. Polaron is claiming WP:NC(CN) should override WP:MOS-JA, but many users oppose this, and discussion/polling is now taking place at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Polaron has started a similar poll in Talk:New Orleans, Louisiana and Talk:Seattle, Washington to drop state names from the cities, so he is on a personal crusade to drop state (and prefecture) names from ALL cities in the world. Please advise if this IS, in fact, a violation of WP:POINT. Also, how can we reverse his massive changes?--Endroit 12:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If the redirect page has not been edited, non-admins can simply reverse the redirect without any trouble. Hbdragon88 16:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

His moves are clearly against consensus on the Japanese MOS. I have reverted all of them. Please let me know if he attempts a massive page move episode like this again. Thanks. pschemp | talk 04:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting and fixing everything. I think everything is back to normal, and we are having a civil discussion now.--Endroit 17:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll point out that this person is a highway editor, and has mass moved there too. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 17:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Pagania

Reguest for Page Protection failed. User:Afrika paprika continously enforces his edits to the Pagania article and refuses to discuss as can be seen on Talk:Pagania. User_talk:Afrika paprika page agrees with my previous statements (open refusal to discuss and usage of personal attacks). I suggest that a 24h block will make the user discuss and stop the edit war. Thanks in advance to whoever helped stop this edit war! --HolyRomanEmperor 15:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I too request protection but from user 'HolyRomanEperor' who continues to push for his nationalistic version. Althought the consensus was reached and user 'Pannonian' wrote an excellent article the user'HRE' after being deblocked/unbanned returns again to start another flame/edit war. I suggest something to be done about this person, thank you. Afrika 04:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to Talk:Pagania and the history of Pagania and it will be seen who pushes what. I wasn't blocked at all, either. HolyRomanEmperor 15:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is you who should refer to the talk page instead of posting your nationalistic crap. I plead once again - please protect the Pagania article with Pannonian's version and remove this person from Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Afrika 18:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: while my account was temporarely disabled because I had fallen victim to a , this user has been blocked for 3RR and has been recently edit-warring a lot. I am not even a party in his edit war, I just came to save the article which I created. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Sexyafterdelivery@yahoo.com

I was gonna take this to WP:AIV, but I figured someone would contest it. Do we really want someone with this name showing up in the edit histories of articles? And, what is the policy regarding email usernames? The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No not really, I'd be happy to username block it. General policy on email usernames:

"E-mail addresses: Using your e-mail address as your username is not a good idea. Misplaced Pages content is extensively copied and the site itself is one of the most visited sites in the world. Any edit you make on Misplaced Pages will have your username attached to it, and using your email address will make you a tempting target for spammers. Additionally, usernames containing "____@wikipedia.org", etc. are blocked on sight, as such a name may misleadingly imply that a user is a member of the Wikimedia Foundation. There is no official policy regarding whether to block non-"wikipedia" email addresses, so it is left to the discretion of the blocking admin. Note to new user patrollers: you may use the template {{WelcomeEmail}} to recommend a username change to such users, or {{UsernameBlockedEmail}} to inform them of a block." (From WP:U). Petros471 22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone else beat me to it (block). Petros471 22:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You people are too sensitive. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've left the blocking admin the following:

Howdy! I see that you blocked User:Sexyafterdelivery@yahoo.com. I don't see a policy violation, and your block summary says that it's because you feel that it's a "possible bad faith account". It's a dumb account name, and probably just a one off that was abandoned right away, but I urge you to be easy on the block trigger. If an account name sets off your alert (but does not violate WP:USERNAME), I urge you to wait until you see an actual bad faith edit before blocking. To do otherwise is both failure to WP:AGF and a possible example of WP:BITE. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't work out why this fellow has been blocked. Could someone explain? --Tony Sidaway 01:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I would block such an account (with {{usernameblock}}) on sight. I think this would meet the "Inflammatory usernames" section of WP:U. Prodego 01:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How is it inflammatory? We have many FedEx folks who are quite sexy both before and after they make their rounds. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 02:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Main page spelling error

Could someone fix the spelling of "receives" on the featured article notice on the main page. Thanks. –Shoaler (talk) 00:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Fixed. Mackensen (talk) 01:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry and 3rr

Would like some eyes on the following problem: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Jessefriend; 3 editors and 2 IP's have made the same edit to the Jesse Macbeth article, reversing the meaning of the intro without discussion. Between the editors, the page has been identically reverted 14 times in the last 24 hours (3rr violations by 2 of the editors, 3rd blocked immediately as imposter). See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Deepthroat123_reported_by_User:Mmx1_(Result:24_hour_block). --Mmx1 01:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Article is now semi-protected. Naconkantari 01:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

List of reverters & actions

• 66.11.160.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) — blocked for 1 week by User:Cowman109 for abusive account creation
• 72.137.247.10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) — only two edits, both rv to Jesse Macbeth
• Jessefriend (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — blocked indefinitely by User:Cowman109 as vandalism only account
• Deepthroat123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — 24 hour block for 3RR violation by User:ERcheck; block changed to indefinite by User:Cowman109 for vandalism & sockpuppet of Jessefriend
• Nobunaga25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — impersonator of User:Nobunaga24 — perm block for impersonation by User:ERcheck.

— ERcheck (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Netscott

For weeks now User:Netscott has been agitating concerning this image uploaded by SlimVirgin. He kept insisting that the image be as "Anti-Semitic", against the objections of SlimVirgin and other editors. Netscott then tried to have it deleted as a derivative image; though the photographer had released it, Netscott claimed the poster in the photograph itself hadn't been properly released. Jkelly then proposed that the photograph be used under the photographer's release, and the poster image on the photograph itself under Fair Use. Netscott then objected, saying that we couldn't claim Fair Use on the poster unless we knew the name of the artist. SlimVirgin then went and discovered the name of the artist, and added it on the image page. Netscott then claimed it wasn't Fair Use based on "Counterexample 4". When this was shot down, he complained about the name of the image, insisting it was making claims of anti-Semitism. SlimVirgin then uploaded the image under a new "neutral" name that didn't mention anti-Semitism. Netscott then kept trying to attach the new image to the old name which contained the name anti-Semitism, trying again to make that linkage. When this was reverted, Netscott then tried to associate the name of the artist with ANSWER, a controversial group, and continually kept associating the poster creator's name with anti-Semitism on all sorts of Talk: pages and message boards, trying to get the image deleted again, ostensibly out of concerns about WP:BLP, but in actuality excacerbating any BLP concerns, since it was Netscott alone who kept making this connection, in a dozen different places. SlimVirgin then removed the name of the poster creater from the image page; at this point Netscott then insisted on listing the image as a Copyright violation, claiming the artist was no longer attributed.

The image itself is quite famous; it's been reproduced and discussed on a number of famous blogs and websites, and has been discussed in the media. Netscott's purpose here seems to be to troll as much as possible, agitating in any way possible to get the image deleted, while possibly endangering Misplaced Pages itself by deliberately associating an individual's name with anti-Semitism. In his relatively brief Misplaced Pages career Netscott has been blocked 8 times already. In fact he would still be under his last block, for a week, if not for the fact that an admin involved in a content dispute on Netscott's side unblocked him and re-blocked for a day instead. I'm suggesting a 1 week block at this point, though I'm open to the idea of an indefinite block as well. Thoughts? Jayjg 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Netscott was blocked for a week on August 25 by User:Blnguyen for persistent 3RR violations, but unfortunately user:Bastique, who was involved in that particular content dispute with Netscott, reduced the block to 24 hours. Otherwise none of this trolling would have happened. SlimVirgin 03:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Was mildly involved in some of the early issues, but would also support a week long block for persistent trolling and disruption. Given the user's other productive edits I do not think an indefinite block is called for at this point. JoshuaZ 03:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Total misrepresentation of the facts here. My efforts relative to this image has been to properly establish neutral point of view relative to it. This is what my first edit relative to this issue consisted of. Without any discussion whatsoever SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) reverted my addition. Because Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox we're not to be making statements about what a given piece of content is (this is clearly spelled out in WP:NOR). On every turn my efforts in this direction have been thwarted. I even went so far as to make a guide illustrative of how a caption needs to read in order for Misplaced Pages to meet neutral point of view. Unfortunately User:SlimVirgin and to a lesser extent User:Jayjg have demonstrated ownership on this article to the point that virtually all of my good faith edits were reverted. SlimVirgin even went so far as to say that SHE had to verify my edits. ???? With that image as the lead for new anti-Semitism and with no in article text about reliable and verifiable sources statements included Misplaced Pages is seriously in jeapordy of libel relative to branding this artist's work anti-Semitic and in consequence the artist himself. A good number of editors have been supportive of my efforts including User:AYArktos, User:Bastique, User:Gmaxwell, User:Fastfission (in WikiEn-i) , User:Liftarn, User:Geni to name a few. A number of responses to an RfC I started also were supportive of my suggestions. All of the editing I've done has been in good faith. I've made quite a few efforts to discuss this matter to try to come to a consensus and I've been shut down on all sides by these two editors. Here is the BLP discussion wherein I expressed the very real case that Misplaced Pages is in libel relative to the artist by publishing his work as the lead image and thereby implying that it is an example of new anti-Semitism (particularly when there's no sources cited in the article as saying that). Both SlimVirgin and Jayjg have themselves expressed concern about libel by contravening Misplaced Pages:Fair use policy #10 in removing the artist's name from the image page itself (for an image to qualify for fair use an artist or copyright holder must be attributed). I'll have more to say on this but I need to step out for a bit. (→Netscott) 03:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That is absolute nonsense. Geni, Gmaxwell, and FastFission did not support Netscott, and in fact several people questioned why he was posting to the mailing list about it. (Geni's position was that we needed the name of the copyright holder, and we now have it.) Liftarn did support Netscott, because Liftarn also wants the image gone at any cost. The image has been discussed with Jkelly and the matter settled.

The issue is not the image now, but the trolling. SlimVirgin 03:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are using the word "trolling" to discount my efforts (in a very propagandistic way). The reality is that I spent the better part of the day replacing deprecated templates and editing on the infrastructure of the WP:BLP/N (like that shortcut itself) noticeboard (and {{editabuselinks}} template). I even made an announcement about it. It was only when you didn't transfer the old image's talk page to the newly named image that a dispute arose. I even sought comments about that. (→Netscott) 04:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User's editing style appears disruptive and tendencious. El_C 04:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that such disruptive behavior should be stopped. ←Humus sapiens 04:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I just asked Netscott to walk away from the article and image in question. Waiting for his response.--MONGO 04:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I just blocked him for 48 hrs. He still should be able to edit his Talk page. Please LMK if you feel it was inappropriate. ←Humus sapiens 04:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Edit conflicted for the fifth time - I was the original blocker and was briefed about an IRC conversation which lead to the unblock after Netscott was unblocked. At no time was I informed that Bastique was himself involved in editing the part of the article in question let alone the general sphere of Jewish editing. I am quite unimpressed by the excessive levels of agitation which have been employed, in particular when he tags the pic as a copyvio of wikipedia. Leaning 1 week, definitely not indef, as Netscott is a serious contributor. Blnguyen | rant-line 04:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting an indef block, but I take issue with the serious contributor thing. Looking through his contribs, the signal-to-noise ratio isn't good. SlimVirgin 04:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree entirely with El_C and Blnguyen. The editing style emplyed by Netscott was overly aggressive, and he has been disruptive in this matter. I also note that I have asked Humus that Netscott be unblocked in the interim so that he can fairly address issues raised here. -- Samir धर्म 04:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir, if he is unblocked to discuss it, he'll just use this as the latest plaftorm for the disruption. SlimVirgin 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Should he disrupt here, SlimVirgin, he will be blocked. But I think it is only fair for him to get a chance to say his side civilly -- Samir धर्म 04:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It should not take a village to upload an image to Misplaced Pages. That Netscott has made it so troubles me. I support a week block. Netscott, you can email me with your concerns and ideas about the image and I will follow up. FloNight 04:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Humus sapiens for unblocking me. I will not post outside of this thread for the next 48 hours out of respect for you and Samir (the scope) (obviously it's other's perogative if I'm to be re-blocked). Seriously if I had not been treated with such disregard and lack of dignity when I first started editing on this article things probably wouldn't have come to this. At every turn my edits have been reverted first discussed second. How does that foster a good collaborative environment? (→Netscott) 04:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I see, so you tried to get the image deleted under 5 different bogus rationales because you were treated with "disregard and lack of dignity"? Thank you for comfirming your WP:POINT. Jayjg 05:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There's not much left for that image. Its not 'free', but its no longer tagged as such anymore anyways. Netscott tagging {{copyvio}} with the url point to a revision of the image page is a rather strange way to dispute the image, but only thing left is dispution of the fair use rationale. Kevin_b_er 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, is it improper to insist that images are in compliance with Fair use policy? Is it improper to insist that Misplaced Pages not defame an artist with poorly sourced statements about his art being "anti-Semitic" (particularly not including such statements in the article). When I came to the article there was virtually no relevant text in it's caption relative to the image. Here's what the caption read when I started to call for NPOV on it:

"A placard at a February 16, 2003, anti-war rally in San Francisco. Photograph by zombie of zombietime.com. "

Essentially the image was "there" as the perfect example of new anti-Semitism. Then after my efforts and comments by User:Gimmetrow about WP:CAP SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) added some text to at least establish the image's relevance to the rest of the article like so:

Photographed at an anti-war rally in San Francisco on February 16, 2003, this placard mixes anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, anti-Zionist and anti-globalization imagery with some classic anti-Semitic motifs. Photograph taken by zombie of zombietime.com.

But where are the reliable sources in that caption? This sets up negative details relative to the artist and as such reliable and verifiable sources need to be written into the article in support of such negative details. (→Netscott) 05:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's determined here that I'm to be reblocked for any length of time then I would just recommend indef. blocking me with the {{indefblock}} tag and all. I probably spend too much time on the project as it is and an indef. block would just motivate me to fully step away from it. I've put too much effort into this project to be treated so disrespectfully and with a lack of dignity the way that I have been in this circumstance particularly by User:SlimVirgin. The funny thing is that you almost can't go anywhere now on Misplaced Pages and not see an example my work in one of my creations. (→Netscott) 06:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

These are some of the so-called anti-imperialists we have today. "A war for Israel." So ignorant of the nature of imperialist-dependence, always up for the instant counterfeit Jew gratification. Netscott, you are editing tendenciously because you have some fundamental misunderstandings about Misplaced Pages policy. That caption does not need reliable sources, it highlights what the image evokes, and some interpretive leeway is afforded there. It's unrealistic to expect one to find a source which says these things about that image, which makes that line of reasoning tendencious. Similarly, invoking WP:BLP is also tendencious, as it was in Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. El_C 07:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

In reference to the above, I feel that Netscott has been editing in an escessively agitatory and diruptive manner unconducive to teh improvement and production of quality articles, so I have enacted a block of 7 days, as this has been exhibited previously in many 3RR blocks. Blnguyen | rant-line 07:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Netscott is also the hidden hand behind User:His excellency’s evidence against established editors in his case before the Arbitration Committee. Netscott has cynically encouraged and used His excellency to rid Misplaced Pages of Jewish and insufficiently anti-Jewish editors, who he claims are using “Misplaced Pages as a tool to spread propaganda.”.Postmonger 08:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Slim, did you really mean to revert to keep that disgusting allegation from an obvious sock on this page? And "Postmonger", nice work against a blocked editor who can't defend himself here. Haven't you been insisting that I'm that hidden hand, or don't you find that quite as safe? The same accusation against me has more substance, if anything (although please note that the arbcom seems rather strikingly far from endorsing it). Bishonen | talk 10:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC).

Hi Bish, I don't know either of the players. I only reverted an anon who was removing a post. SlimVirgin 21:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed this. Netscott gets blocked for 48 hours, and then you block him for 7 days without additional cause? This is extremely bad administative behavior on our part, and goes many lengths to support the claims that we are acting as a Cabal. You're being excessively punitive, and acting on mob mentality. Bastique▼ _voir 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Bastique, it was you who triggered this. You reduced Netscott's last block in violation of WP:BLOCK even though you were involved in the content dispute on his side. It's clear to anyone looking at this that Netscott has developed an unhealthy obsession and needs a substantial cooldown period. It was to be hoped he'd realize that on this own, but he didn't, and therefore the 7-day block was a very good idea. If you hadn't undone it, this latest situation wouldn't have occurred. SlimVirgin 21:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Slim, it was you who triggered this. Persistent goading of users with insults and threats, knowing that they won't take any action against you, because going up against you means going up against your gang. And any remarks about your own misuse of admin powers will certainly get a user blocked (like out of process oversight, etc.) Bastique▼ _voir 02:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Blame me. I should have blocked him for a week. ←Humus sapiens 00:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't be blocking anyone involved on those pages. Bastique▼ _voir 02:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what he's supposed to have done wrong. He was spot on that the image was originally incorrectly tagged as if it were a free image. His fair use concerns have been reasonable. He has been civil. I think he should be unblocked unless some solid evidence of misbehaviour is presented. Saying that he "is trolling" is too vague. He has certainly pursued the matter with determination but so have those on the other side of the argument. Haukur 00:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The civility bit is actually subject to debate, but regardless, the tendencious editing-style is a problem — see my comment directly above. El_C 01:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The users in question, the ones calling for Netscott's unwarrented ban, have a habit of distracting from the actual issues. Netscott behaved badly, but in response to other users behaving just as bad. Netscott wasn't warring with himself, unfortunately, he caught a throng of POV warriors who will not tolerate any page other than the way they say it. I actually am very neutral on the particular topics, and try to remain so when working on these pages.

Furthermore, when I was willing to offer a compromise, to try to come to a middle point, I am responded to within minutes with cacaphony of aggression and antagonism, as if there are users repeatedly refreshing their watchlists. How someone can respond within three minutes with such an incredible surge of energy is beyond me, unless they're doing exactly that. Note that I soon got off that article, which most sensible people will do, when faced with such an onslaught of animosity. Bastique▼ _voir 02:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are users who make it impossible to take a neutral side in their articles, to try and take a common ground to make the articles less POV and more encyclopedic. Bastique▼ _voir 02:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar's Repeated Personal Attacks

Mystar has violated wikipedia's policy against personal attacks several times and contines to do so despite tactful requests for him to alter his behavior, notification of the offical policy against it, warnings to stop in Talk:Terry Goodkind and several warning templates in his user talk page. This comes in the form of rude, hostile and unfounded accusations of misconduct, labeling others liars without proof, name calling and generaly aggresive and belligerent posts targeting specific editors. The majority of these incidents can be found at Talk:Terry Goodkind and Talk: Sword of Truth. His behavior is not only disruptive and rude but hey refuses to heed very patient warnings from other editors. NeoFreak 03:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to get an idea what this is all about. It's really quite difficult with all that history - lots of material archived, etc. Mystar does, indeed, often fail to assume good faith, and he has said a lot of things in the past that probably cross the line into personal attacks. Obviously, he shouldn't do that. It's also slightly concerning the extent to which he seems to be taking instructions from Terry Goodkind himself. All the same, I'm not sure that this is the right time for admins to intervene, unless something especially outrageous happens. We may just inflame the situation, right now, when there is some hope for it to cool down.

It's basically a content dispute, and it looks as if a number of you are prepared to try mediation. I think the mediation should go ahead if at all possible. Also, I'm getting a sense (perhaps I'm wrong about this; I haven't gone to enormous lengths to check the merits of the dispute) that Mystar isn't just being mad or bad here - that he has been provoked in part by some unencyclopedic attacks on Goodkind's literary reputation using inappropriate sources. I suggest that admins keep out of it for the moment, while we see if the mediation works. All the history will come out if it ever ends up with Arb.Com. For now, I'll watch developments. I just urge that everyone try to be civil and assume that other current editors are acting in good faith, and that everyone do their best to be understanding of other viewpoints in the mediation. Of course, you (or Mystar if it comes to that) can come back here if there are any urgent problems that I'm not seeing, or haven't yet come up, which might require warnings or page protection. Comments from anyone else? Metamagician3000 13:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to be some soigns of a deescalation without the need for any further outside help. I'm hopeful this will continue. Thanks for looking into it. NeoFreak 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

contentious user's edits and refusal to follow WP NPA

I have warned user Ruthfulbarbarity numerous times in the last few days about his personal attacks and incivility directed towards me - all violations of WP:NPA. Today this user - in an effort to inflame already-high tensions even more, erroneously corrected my spelling of the word 'né' to 'née' (he did this in MY text, section title, and comments) claimed that the word 'né' did not exist, see then personally attacked me again, violating WP:NPA. I pointed out that my usage was correct, and he was wrong, and asked, then demanded that he correct the improper and erroneous edits he made to MY text. Thus far, he has refused. I ask that he be give a much needed and deserved 48 hour (or more) block as remedy - so that he might reflect on his actions - and that we can get some work done. You will find his edit here Ruthfulbarbarity's edit of my text and the general talk page here Talk

NBGPWS 03:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

NBGPWS (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) was recently blocked for a few violations. This complaint might be considered a form of WP:POINT. I have never heard of anyone complaining about spelling correction as a personal attack. Regardless, spelling is a content argument, not a personal attack. --Tbeatty 04:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User Ruthfulbarbarity's WP:NPA violation "First of all, it's spelled "nee," not that you would actually know that. " NBGPWS 04:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You're requesting a 48 hours "or more" block for that? It's not a nice remark, but many people wouldn't call it a PA at all. Please note that in any case only extreme personal attacks are grounds for a block. Why not correct the edits to your text yourself? And remember to comment on content, not on the contributor. Calling an edit "contentious" is acceptable, calling the editor contentious is quite unnecessary. Avoid ascribing motives to other editors, especially bad motives, such as saying "in an effort to inflame already-high tensions even more". This good advice is all official policy. Bishonen | talk 16:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC).

Damn! Oh, well - thanks for weighing in. NBGPWS 17:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Cretanpride blocked for sockpuppetry

I have blocked Cretanpride (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for one month, since checkuser has confirmed that he has adopted yet another sockpuppet identity (MegasAllexandros (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)). Since I have become involved in the case (previously discussed here) I'm mentioning the block here, in case anyone disputes it or thinks that I have a conflict of interest. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Update: MegasAllexandros is contesting the block on his talk page; note that he doesn't exactly didn't immediately deny that he's Cretanpride. I'll let someone else respond to the unblock request. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note left. Mackensen (talk) 11:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good one. :-) . Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Cretanpride's seems to already back, this time with the name User:Heraklis, an account created this morning, that has concentrated his interests exactly where I thought his socks would strike, that is the few articles Cretanpride's socks had created or considerably edited. Just to be sure, I'll ask checkuser to make a control. If he's confirmed, what would you propose to do? Lengthen the block to three months, or ban him indefinitely?--Aldux 10:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent MySpace edits

A rash of IP user(s) from Australia have overtaken the edits on the MySpace article. Among some of their better edits, they continue to reinclude WP:OR and WP:NPOV sections. I marked these as vandalism because of the editor's (or editors') ignoring my edit summary pleas for discussion on the talk page and the lack of any citation on certain claims of criticism and so on. AlphaChimp sent me here claiming my WP:AIV was incorrect because the edits were not obvious vandalism. Can someone take a look at the past few hundred changes (these edits span only a few days but their style is to change 3 letters or a word and hit "Save Changes" making it insidiously difficult to differentiate between WP:OR or WP:NPOV violations and grammar correction). Thanks. ju66l3r 05:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

59% = consensus?

Misplaced Pages:State route naming conventions poll may have been set up as a majority-wins poll, but the ArbCom clearly encouraged consensus on the matter. There is a clear lack of consensus on the poll, and yet so far three of the "admin judges" are treating it as a majority-wins poll. --SPUI (T - C) 05:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait since you lost? 41% isn't consensus. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

With more discussion, perhaps a clearer result could ensue - perhaps for a better policy not discussed yet. Stephen B Streater 06:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You got it right first time. Consensus descisions are strongly non-zero sum. In a debate with only rational agents, nobody actually loses. (though some might not be perfectly happy, of course).

If you think that a majority vote is the only solution to resolving this particular dispute, well ... I don't know... but ok, I'll grant you that point for the sake of conversation today. I'm not going to argue with your actions.

But let's agree that it definately isn't consensus! :-)

Kim Bruning 12:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

On many issues, it doesn't matter in the end which decision is made as long as a decision is made. This applies especially to trivial matters. If you check the principles in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Highways, you'll see that this is exactly the tack taken by the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 09:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted an attempt to close that as "no consensus", since the admins in question appear to still be discussing it... For the record, my opinion is that consensus is a goal, not an absolute requirement; when something has come to a boil (as with the hint from arbcom) and we count heads on it, a clear majority is acceptable if it'll just stop the arguing. Shimgray | talk | 10:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've warned SPUI (User_talk:SPUI#State_route_naming_conventions_poll) about his try to close and he has replied with an interpretation of ArbCom's directives in this matter that I do not think is supported. If he reverts back to that "rejected" template, I will consider it disruption and will issue a block. His contributions throughout this matter have, in my view, attempted to stymie the functioning of the process to get to an outcome, any outcome so that this trivial matter can be put to bed. ++Lar: t/c 12:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Could the remainder of the page be locked from editing to prevent any future vandalism or unwanted editing? I don't think anymore discussion is needed on Part 1 until after the admins cast all of their votes. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 12:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

All I can say is that that page and proper wikipedia policymaking don't really have much correlation with each other.

Now as to achieving consensus, I wonder if the arbcom ever looked into King Solomon for ideas?

Well, whatever the case... as a start, I propose deletion of all highwaycruft. That'll end the situation swiftly. <looks innocent> Kim Bruning 12:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Per Arbcom, an arbitrary decision is better than no decision, and per common sense, 59% is better than arbitrary. Accept it, or get banned. Sorry. Thatcher131 (talk) 12:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Quote the relevant passage that says I'll be banned please! :-) Kim Bruning 13:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

SPUI is one of several Wikipedians who takes the tack that "It ain't a consensus unless it agrees with me!" *Dan T.* 12:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Also the only person ever blocked for successfully violating WP:IAR ;-) Kim Bruning 13:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Didn't Ed Poor get blocked for deleting AfD? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, as Angela suggested on Wikien-l, we ought to try consensus polling. --bainer (talk) 12:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a solution to this issue: Block anyone who isn't a highway expert. Block anyone who's ever named a highway article wrong. Block anyone who's ever gotten frustrated and made bad edits in the middle of a highway naming dispute. Block anyone who's part of the 59%. The reasoning? Anyone who's made mistakes in the past is likely to make mistakes again, and that constitutes disruption.

Yes, this may be an extreme viewpoint to take. I don't care -- this whole thing is frustrating. --Elkman - (Elkspeak) 12:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Relax, SPUI, it's just some non-binding poll. Right?

That's official policy for you, and a pretty good description of reality around here too. This has annoyed me often enough in the past, it's just about impossible to just make a decision and move on. Someone will always show up and say: "Hey! I wasn't a part of that 'consensus', it's utterly wrong - let's do things another way." Haukur 13:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Its supporters are treating it as fully binding, and plan to move all the highway pages once the details are hammered out. --SPUI (T - C) 13:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

SPUI: Perhaps if you (and to a lesser extent, others) had collegially worked with everyone else to reach a consensus prior to this, instead of having it have to go to ArbCom, it wouldn't have come to this. It certainly would have wasted far less time on everyone's part. But you and others did not and ArbCom acted. What I see here is disruptive wikilawyering on your part after the fact, trying to block implementation. You need to accept that this is how it's going to play out.

Note that one way to achieve consensus is to block or ban those who are disruptively interfering with the attempt to reach it, until only reasonable people remain. Your contributions to the encyclopedia are enormous. Yet, no less a personage than Jimbo himself has asked you to change your disruptive, contentious ways, remember? No one person is indispensible to this project and if the project has to get along without your positive contributions in order to also get along without your negative contributions, so be it. There are a number of admins who are prepared to block anyone who is contentiously and tendentiously disrupting this process. I suggest you internalise that and move on. ++Lar: t/c 14:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree emphatically with Lar here. This bloody stupid dispute keeps popping up on WP:AN, AN/I, RfC, and now RfArb. Pick one convention – any convention that's not patent nonsense will do – and get on with all your lives. (It seems that the ArbCom-imposed process has generated such a result. I haven't looked at the poll to see what that result is, but from previous exposure to this issue I know that both of the favoured alternatives were reasonable.) Please add me to the list of admins who are sick and tired of this, and who are likely to block any editors who are responsible for this utterly pointless fight returning to WP:AN or any of its subpages. There are lots of useful things to do on Misplaced Pages. Pick one of them and stop bothering the rest of us with this issue. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe it even made it this far. I'm sorry to say that, as a result of this naming mess, we have loss a great number of contributors to the highway projects because of edit warring, mass page renames, and attacks on character as a result of only one or two people on Misplaced Pages. It's very sad that these warring individuals spend so much time worrying about something so trivial that it devolves the quality of the encylopedia, through contributors leaving, rather than improve upon it. As a result, many articles are no longer being formed or created out of fear that their contributions will be made meaningless as a result of a shift in the page, or a renaming that makes it inaccessible, or whatever is their reason.

I am sick of this as well and would like to see a consensus made once and for all, even if it upsets one or two heavy contributors. These same opposers to this legitimate vote are also the most vocal, sadly, but they are merely editors as we are all. And as such, I will agree with Lar, that no one person is indispensible to the highway project (or editing on Misplaced Pages in general), that any disruption in the process of this vote, or disruption after a consensus has been reached (through edit warring) should be blocked and that this nightmare be put behind us. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 14:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the poll is 59/41 shows there is considerable support for SPUI's position and we shouldn't belittle him for that. However it is important to consider the Arbcom ruling (which seems to me common sense) that sometimes a decision has to be made and in those cases an arbitrary decision is better than no decision. Of course no decision is final but that does not mean continually fighting over it. To me it means accepting a decision, living with it for a few months, and then revisiting the issue. At this point the only viable options are to close as no decision, meaning the highways articles will remain at status quo ante and perpetuating the argument indefinitely, or closing as decided, resulting in a plausible solution that may nevertheless disappoint or even infuriate one editor. Thatcher131 (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I would have accepted a 59/41 had it gone the other way. We have a definite majority that while not quite 66% generally used for consensus, it is damn close. And it is definitely the clearest will ever expressed in the highway argument and probably the clearest there will ever be. There was nothing uncouth about the vote, it was performed fairly, there was discussion involved and a decision has been reached as arbcom demanded. This should put an end to it. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know SPUI and I don't know the long and horrid background, but is there a reason SPUI has not yet exhausted the community's patience? He's got a block log as long as your arm, and he seems to acting in an intentionally disruptive manner today. Friday (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Friday, I find myself asking that same question regularly. I think Misplaced Pages would be more credible and attract better writers if we dropped our bad habit of coddling and enabling sociopathic behavior. You can't blame SPUI - he hasn't been sent the message that disruptive behavior is actually uncacceptable. At least, that's how it looks from where I'm standing. -GTBacchus 19:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the bottom line here is that some admin (not already involved) needs to be bold, close the poll per Arbcom ruling that a plausible decision is better than none at all, and be prepared to back up the decision with blocks. SPUI will either accept the result or contest the page moves, in which case he should be blocked. Thatcher131 (talk) 19:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This is the process currently in effect. The poll is closed and admins are weighing in. Ashibaka tock 19:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Benefit to the project. Disruptiveness and stubbornness aside, most of us are extremely reluctant to lose his expertise on highway topics. Powers 19:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of us? Should we run a poll? I'm thoroughly fed up with this endless conflict over something so utterly trivial, all caused by SPUI refusing to accept that he could ever have to compromise about anything, that he has to work with others, and that he doesn't have unlimited licence to do whatever the hell he wants. I fully support Lar's block, and if SPUI persists in this sort of behaviour after the block expires, I'd support making it permanent. I see very little benefit to the project in keeping him around. --ajn (talk) 19:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

SPUI Blocked

I'm exhausted. I warned him and he argued about what the meaning of the warning is about. Blocked for 31 hours. I invite review of my actions. I assume this needs to go on the ArbCom case page too... I'm not ready for a permanent block at this time, I still hope this valuable contributor can be convinced to not be so abrasively tendentious. ++Lar: t/c 19:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should he? We keep making it abundantly clear that he can do anyting he wants, and it will all be accepted. Would you change? -GTBacchus 19:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

He won't. As you stated above, no one person is indispensible to this project. If that means SPUI must be blocked, even if temporairly, to gain some ground on this project and hopefully keep some editors from bailing ship, then by all means, go ahead and do it. I'm sick and tired of going on this merry-go-round of a chase to get SPUI to conform to policy, because it hasn't worked since day one. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ashibaka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) reduced the block to 5 hours saying "Block shortened to 5 hours out of consideration that you are engaged in a number of important discussions, but when you look at the sort of forest fire you tried to start I think it is pretty necessary. Ashibaka tock 19:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)". That's fine by me, but if when I get home late tonite, it hasn't worked and SPUI is back at it, I'm reblocking. For longer. ++Lar: t/c 19:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd support the next block being indefinite- I've no idea what his credentials are as a highway expert but it's blatantly obvious that he's been a very disruptive editor for a very long time. Friday (talk) 19:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No user is indispensible - Wik showed us that. SPUI is very similar to Wik, in both his disruptive abilities and the high quality of his many edits. It would be sad to see SPUI go - then again, it was sad to see Wik go, too. I hope things can be worked out. --Golbez 19:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

While SPUI has contributed much to the highway article system at Misplaced Pages, other users can fill his shoes. The amount of people that we have lost as a result of this debate, SPUI's edit warring, and general mess should tell you there are obvious trade-offs for keeping him on here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I won't shed any tears over SPUI's self-inflicted travails. But, you know, he does have at least a small point. That naming convention poll was vague and confusingly constructed and garnered a weak majority - it should in no way be taken as license to run rough-shod over any remaining objections. But despite my reservations about the actual poll, SPUI has proven time and again to be a real PITA. older ≠ wiser 19:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I second all of the above. I happen to largely agree with SPUI on the poll: it's confused as to its scope (started off as being on "US state routes", then wandered into Canada and US territories after the first round of voting), its process (is a non-consensus outcome on the first part binding on the options for the second part? are some states exceptions on the basis of having unique common names that contradict the part one majority, while other common names are precluded by it?), and its basic mandate (is it to determine the common name, or pick a naming convention that's able to override that principle? is there a consensus to accept a non-consensus? has arbcom mandated picking an NC, regardless of consensus? do the judging admins in fact determine if there's consensus?). But let's face it, SPUI has gotten away with murder in the past (industrial-scale incivility, rampant WP:POINT -- including nomination of deletion processes for deletion, signature-spamming campaigns against a certain Wikiproject, and doubtless much else I've blocked out of my mind), so it's hard to argue that he's being done a huge injustice if he's for the time being out of "community patience". Alai 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Blatant marketing at PA Consulting Group

What's the best approach to dealing with marketing puff at PA Consulting Group, it reads like it's been written by their marketing people and the contribution history by the individual who put it in seems to support that. ALR 09:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, a huge chunk of it is blatant plagiarism from PA's website. The company logo and infobox are fine and standard for a large corporation. However, the intro, 'Activities', and 'PA Ventures' sections contain verbatim lifts of their website content, while 'History' and 'Awards' seem to mostly contain original phrases. I've got to go right now, but in the meantime I changed your tags from {{POV}} and {{weasel}} to {{advert}}, which is what I think you intended to do in the first place. I'll check here when I get back and see what others suggest. I say leave the history and rewrite or cut the rest, but I'm kind of cranky right now. ;-) Baseball,Baby! 11:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The section 'PA Ventures' is a blantant copy past from ] I was about to insert the Copyvio template, but that is for the entire artilce and not just a section. Should it just be added to replace the section? or should it be added to replace the entire article? or not at all. - Angelbo 16:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The article has had vast chunks of non-GFDL web site content dumped into it. I've reverted the article to the latest non-infringing version, tagged the userspace page wherein this content was amalgamated (Userspace isn't for copyright violations, either.), and placed a prominent notice not to do this again (this not being the first time that this company's web site has been dumped into the article) on Talk:PA Consulting Group. Uncle G 19:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Talkpage at Tullece

I don't even know what's happened here, other than Folken de Fanel and I starting off on the wrong foot on a minor issue which degenerated into inflammatory comments. Attempted an apology as a form of mediation but was met with even more trouble. Honestly, I have no problem with him (up to this point) or the article, but he's set in thinking I'm trolling him in some way or fixated on being "right". Help here would be sincerely appreciated.

I apologize in advance if this is not the proper place for this kind of discussion, so feel free to move if it's any trouble. Thanks. Voice of Treason 12:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

So far neither of you are edit-warring over your differences, so this situation could be a lot worse. However when I looked at Talk:Tullece & the talk pages of both of you, I failed to find anything that I would consider an apology from you to Folken de Fanel -- unless your offer of an "online purple nurple" is some form of an apology I have never encountered. You might want to try apologizing again to him, in a more obvious manner. -- llywrch 18:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Large number of edits to the country infoboxes

I've noticed that User:V6g3h7 seems to have begun editing the articles on pretty much every single nation on the planet (he/she has made it to "E" so far) inserting empty lines with "Common language" everywhere but no content (except in the case of Japan). In my view this pretty much messes up the country templates, since e.g. the article on Russia could list a massive number of languages. Do anybody know if this has been proposed anywhere? Valentinian 12:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Not according to Template_talk:Infobox_Country. I'll block him for now, because those edits are moving way too fast. - 131.211.210.12 12:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• You didn't consider asking the user what they were doing first? --bainer (talk) 13:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Could someone take care of the unblock request in this case please? The guy has been blocked for almost an hour now (), and no warning, no contact from any admin on his talk page and no response to his unblock request. I do think he was making these edits in good faith. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll unblock him and let him know that he should discuss things before making such a widespread change. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• (cross-posted to his talk) Yeah, sorry about that. I should have left a note after blocking you. I couldn't find any evidence changes to this template had been discussed, so I was worried about the speed with which you were editing the over 200 articles involved. If you had used edit summaries as Golbez suggested above, I might've found out you suggested the field to begin with. Please consider the above suggestion of raising suggestions to change major templates on the related talk pages and I'm sure blocks like mine won't happen again. - Mgm| 20:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

linkspammer from yamourcom and User insisting on revealing personal information on wikipedia

Take a look at this curious case of linkspamming (search engine optimization): Misplaced Pages:Mirrors_and_forks/Vwxyz#yamour.com; watch for linkspamming particularly in the article "Misplaced Pages" or "wiki", and similar places in other language versions of Misplaced Pages. – Kaihsu 14:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

this user 5ko apparently does not understand that revealing personal infomations his documentare both against the law and against wikipedia rules. please note that this user has many faces (even some others like Петко ,....) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newww (talk • contribs)

Note that Newww is the same linkspammer as mentioned in the incident above. See the link provided there for the whole story. JoshuaZ 15:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry i forgot to sign , actually i am not the same person that added the link , but i am a member of the concerned site developping team , and i simply found it pure hypocrisy that my collegue be called spammer for adding a very imformative link, by someone (5ko) that is using anyway possible on wikipedia wikibooks and all the other projects to link to his site , this user under the name of 5ko(he has many other) has hundreds and hundreds of user profiles linking to his personal homepage .

while my collegue (who often removed spam and irrelivant links from wikipedia)
was banned  and was unable to access wikiedia by  his established personal profile 

(because his IP was blocked too) just because he insisted on his right on adding this informative link that is more relevant to the subject than many other. further more another collegue (overall admin) tried to contact 5ko and know why is he so focussing on removing the link , so the concerned user (5ko) publicly revealed the message in wikipedia (without any translation ) and the email address of my collegue , i then personally informed my collegue that sent him an email asking him to remove the email , so 5ko simply gave a link and said that the complete information can be found on this link , giving a link to the complete registration information that contain the email of the current admin (and the address of the original domain owner) Newww 16:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Whios information is publically viewable to anyone who cares to look. Misplaced Pages sites are copied multiple times en mass. The userpages are frequently copied. Do a search for my name and you will see multiple links to my website too, but I didn't put them all there. Adding likns to your website onto wikipedia articles is considered spam and will not be tolerated. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No-one has any "right" to add links to Misplaced Pages, informative or otherwise. Shimgray | talk | 17:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

there are 3 small details:

1- 5ko has hundreds of user profiles in different languages in wikipedia plus he has also used the same strategy (douzens of profiles in different douzens of languages) in wikibooks ,wikiquotes and every other wikimedia project. this is defenatly a SEO spammer

2- 5ko claims that the documment is SEO driven ,in other words it was made for the whole purpose of being put on wikipedia - my answer : what is the problem with that ? if it is informative and bringing something new there is no harm , if it can helps the average non computer skilled wikipedian then there is no harm in having it. from these 2 points we can sense the hypocrisy of 5ko Newww 17:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

3- 5ko is giving a link to the whois information and that is agaisnt the law , the information are public but to be exploited privately.

Someone might want to inform 5ko that all external links in userspace are rel="nofollow" and hence will be ignored by Google. Dragons flight 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The person's statements are not true: the only user profile pages that link to my homepage are here, and on :bg:. I have no ads, very few visitors and don't care about SEO. On the pictures' pages that I created for bg.Misplaced Pages, there is a ("nofollow") link to an information page on my site on how to update/modify the picture. --5ko 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Replying to each in turm

1) Userpages and pages not in the article space are set to have links no follow so your argument completely fails. 2)As I said before we will not tolerate you spamming us. Especially as your copyright claim on the page is downright bloody offensive to people who actually write wikipedia. 3)What law would that be. Why do you even care if people are encoraged to whois you? What are you trying to hide? I suppose he could delink it though. If that's what it takes to make a spammer go away I'll do it now. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 17:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I am involved here is that the person(s) posted a link on :bg:Misplaced Pages where I stay most of the time, I reported this at Misplaced Pages:Mirrors_and_forks/Vwxyz#yamour.com, then the person (wrongly believing that I was Kaihsu) sent me some funny threatening letters in French and I posted my replies here (summarized in English here). See also bg:User talk:83.214.15.96. Please do what you need to do, I cannot come to en.Misplaced Pages very often. --5ko 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Obvious from your attitude that you consider my friend the spammer and not 5ko

1) the first argument was to show you who is the real spammer , wether the no follow tag is used or not ,it is not the subject , the subject is that this 5ko guy is a professional spammer that have been spamming wikiprojects since years , in other words it is a major vandal not like those who add a link or 2 , this guy had added hundreds . it does not concern me , but when he pretends to be honnest and full of virtue he should think twice before commenting as he did ,it is plain hypocisy.

2)again i tell you , i had nothing to do with the link ,it was my collegue , having said so i think the link he provided is more informative than the majority of bull**it links that were on the page , but then it is up to you guys if you prefer that unless links are added by completly neutral editors (and i doubt it).

3)nothing to hide personally , but the email of my collegue is in public plus he already asked the guy to remove it,

i think we should find a way to defuse the tension instead of making it grow ... Newww 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

again 5ko is giving misleading information the french letters sent by my colleage are not threatening at all on the contrary , you can check it with google translator Newww 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear sir. The person who wrote me threatened me that he and his dozens of SEO experts will vandalize (again) my profile page and even my website if I remove your SEO link again. Then he made legal threats asking to remove his e-mail address. Which I did : his address is no longer on the page with my letters. Greetings and cool off. --5ko 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I insisted on my collegue to give me complete translation of the letters that were exchanged with the [multiface vandal 5ko , i wanted to present to for those that did not do the google translation of the document what was in these letters:

the 1st letter: sent by my collegue : sir we are noticed that you are focusing on the link we provided on wikipedia and that you are insisting on removing the link , your claim that it may have a relation with seo is true ,but you are forgetting the essence of wikipedia (that is to present usefull , understandable information) and the link that we provided has high informative value, higher than many links.

so when you pretend removing this link because it is a SEO it is dishonest and fishy. sir we have done our job to investigate your link to wikipedia and we were surprised to notice that you are a spammer of the biggest importance ,you have profiles in dozens of languages and in different wikimedia projects with links to your webpage hidden everywhere on wikipedia. (5ko answer here was that his page does not contain ads)

sir we are a team of 12 administrator , eventhough i often insist that they should never spam, many do not listen , but in this particular case the guys have done nothing wrong

i'm not telling you that my admins can behave like you are doing now and report every single spam link you have to administrators but i am telling you that SEO fighting is stupid and not constructive,

i noticed that you are from bulgaria and we do not have any developper for bulgare language , so if you are interesrted send me an email with your competence and CV...

This letter contain no threat , it is friendly and even offering a job .... again 5ko giving misleading infomations.

the 2nd letter: sent by my collegue after i informed him that 5ko is putting his email publicly : Sir i have many other things to do than try to resolve this problem between you and my admins , solve it on your owns between you and them. i was informed sir that you are displaying my email , i inform you sir that such actions are against the law and the rule of wikipedia (such issues have been known to lead to lawsuits)

5ko answer here was to present the whole whois info , adding to the previous infaction, the address of the domain seller and his info.

the problem is that my collegue 0T0 has his user/ip blocked so he can not have access to his main profile either and all this because of a spammer [multiface vandal that is being disonest in his arguments Newww 20:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny guy, I believe at least some administrators here understand French (for the others I added emphasis and translation on the page). What do you want me to do to stop your spamming Misplaced Pages and waisting everyone's time? Remove your e-mail address (I did it)? Remove the publicly available Whois search for your domain (Theresa did it)? Allow your irrelevant link on the article Misplaced Pages (won't happen)? --5ko 21:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually the main issue is still unresolved : 0T0 and his IP are still blocked .

furthermore i want to know why old spammers like you are not punished ? Newww 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because we never spam anybody, as our websites are ad-free and more importantly: seo-"experts"-free (unlike yamour.com MAKE EASY MONEY) . Before insulting Misplaced Pages editors, you should start by learning what is an encyclopedia, then do some contributions (at least one). --5ko 06:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Egnp mass tagging blocked users

I ran into a very unusual account just now. Egnp (talk · contribs) is a brand new account that is mass tagging all of the account names being blocked this morning by other admins. I'm not sure its exactly harmful but it's not at all productive and strikes me as quite strange. Anyone else care to look into it? Thatcher131 (talk) 16:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've seen this happen frequently (daily?) and mistakenly reported one to AIV. I'm guessing it's somebody volunteering to tag all the blocked vandals, but it seems each day it's a newly created user with no other history doing the tagging. Curious as to why. Fan-1967 16:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've suggested on Egny's talk page that he/she explain what was the purpose of these edits so perhaps someone can channel these efforts in a more productive direction. Newyorkbrad 17:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Which message may not even be seen. If this is a single purpose account, it was done 45 minutes ago, and may be abandoned until a new one shows up tomorrow. Fan-1967 17:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

We'll see. If I wasted 30 seconds trying to reach out to someone who wasn't there, I can live with that. Newyorkbrad 17:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I don't want to assume bad faith, but I've seen a lot of this. New users creating userpages for nil-edit blocked accounts, and often attributing them as sock puppets of some notorious vandal. In at least one case the user doing the tagging was revealed (by checkuser) to be a serial vandal himself. Personally, I think we need to stop people creating userpages for nil/low-edit accounts. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose, creates unneccessary pages, and draws attention to the vandal. --Doc 21:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Now there's an interesting point. A tagger turned out to be a vandal themselves? More fuel to the fire in the great WP:DENY debate. If it ever becomes a guideline/policy, perhaps accounts like this might be blocked on sight. I don't see that there's any way a legitimate new user would be doing this. Grandmasterka 21:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated the othr day, I've just been deleting the userpages. --Doc 21:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As part of WP:DENY that I agree with (I don't agree with seeing random LTA subpages deleted without forethought, especially certain ones), but they've been doing this for awhile, and seem to be quite decisive at knowing that certain accounts are certain vandals identities. For this, I think there's a small group of them organized from somewhere trying to see who can create the most offensive/annoying accounts to be blocked as possible. Their tagging should be considered part of the vandalism. Kevin_b_er 01:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:RyanGerbil10 abusing admin tools in vioaltion of clear WP policy

User:RyanGerbil10 has been engaged in a dispute content with me and other editors at Battle of Bint Jbeil. In clear violation of WP:PROTECT, which states that "Admins must not protect pages they are actively engaged in editing, except in the case of simple vandalism." - he has reverted an editors change to his preferred version (while admitting in his edit summary that he does not have a string case for his version) - and immediately protected the page from further editing. I ask that the page be unprotected, and that User:RyanGerbil10 be reminded of the relevant WP policy. Isarig 17:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not quite accurate to say he reverted and then protected; there were 4 edits by other users between his last edit and the protection.

You are corect. I misspoke. He waited until the page was reverted to his favored version, then blocked the page after he had edited it. Isarig 22:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

However, admins should in general avoid protecting articles when they have been involved in the edit/revert war, unless it is a case of simple and obvious vandalism. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is fairly complicated, so bear with me. I have been "involved" in the Bint Jbeil article as sort of a referee. I was asked, about a month ago, for my opinion on a possible 3RR violation on this article. After sorting that out, I decided that since the article was so controversial, rather than let it hit the admin noticeboards for 3RR, RFPP, etc. every three days or so, I would watchlist it and keep a lid on disputes which occurred. I have reverted a few times in the past month, mainly for vandalism or for edits which ran afoul of talk page consensus. I am not interested in this article as an author in any way. I am just doing my best to keep a contentious article from perpetually clogging admin noticeboards. That said, a revert war over sources has broken out in the past few days, and although no one broke 3RR, I decided that the revert war was severe enough to warrant protection. Unfortunately, it had to be full protection, as several users involved in the reverting would not be covered by semi-protection. The reason I reverted Isarig's edits before I protected is because Isarig is the only person advocating his particular side of the revert war. I have even read the news article cited in this dispute, and have decided that they do not corroborate Isarig's point of view. Therefore, I reverted before protection because I would rather have a page protected on the (seemingly) more correct version than the less correct version. In addition to all of this, I would add that protection not be removed from this page, as I have seen no evidence that the revert war will not continue should protection be removed. Sorry if I have flouted policy, I thought my actions have been for the best from the start, but if the community feels otherwise I will undo them and even recuse myself from further editing of this article if need be. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 19:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryan, the situation with this article may be as you describe it, but the Talk page & the edit summaries tell little more than this is a hotly contested subject, & people disagree with Isarig. (For everybody else, the Battle of Bint Jbeil was one of the incidents of the recent Israel military action in south Lebanon. Yes, another Israel/Palestine-related conflict.) The rest of us could use a bit more conversation on the Talk page in order to understand what is being disputed & why. Transparency is a good thing. -- llywrch 20:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryan, you are making things worse for yourself by engaging in a dishonest description of the situation. I am not the "only person advocating his particular side of the revert war" - the most recent revert to my version was by user:Threeafterthree, who in addition to me, is also the only editor who has discussed his change on the Talk page - something you have yet to do. Furthermore, you cannot claim on the one hand to be "not interested in this article as an author in any way", and in the next minute tell us that you "have even read the news article cited in this dispute, and have decided that they do not corroborate Isarig's point of view" - describing a clear content dispute. In any case, disinterested editor or content-disputing editor, WP policy is clear and unambigous on this: "Admins must not protect pages they are actively engaged in editing" - there are no exceptions for self-appointed "refrees", disinterested editors or any other editor. You have admitted above to flounting policy. you have been instructed on your Talk page by another admin not to block pages you are editing - undo this block now. Isarig 22:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The locus of the dispute is over whether or not a link should be included to an MSNBC on-line news article which states that there are still Hezbollah fighters in the area of Bint Jbeil, and whether or not Bint Jbeil remains a Hezbollah stronghold. Isarig continues to remove the link to the article, and the mention that Bint Jbeil remains a Hezbollah stronghold. Various editors have reverted him on this. After having read the article in question, I have reverted Isarig, considering his edits to be both disruptive and false. I hope this clears things up, but I will be happy to provide more information if required. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 22:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

What you are describing above is a content dispute you have with me over the interpretation of the articel. You are not allowed to block articles that you have a dispute over and have been actively editing. Policy is clear on that. You are out of line. Undo your block. Isarig 22:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As an editor and especially as an admin it is easy to find yourself engaged in disputes that you came to only to assist with the resolution of a constant dispute, to remove content spam, and etc. It can be somewhat confusing as to what should be done at this point, and have found myself in similar situations. If ryangerbil did just come to that article a month ago to help diffuse a constant conflict, i can't say that i'm opposed to what he did, and that this is the reason WP:IAR exists. (And this is the first time i've ever mentioned IAR in defense of anything . . . ) --heah 22:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Being in a "confusing" situation (of your own doing) is not reason enough to break well established policy. In this case, we have a simple content dispute. As an admin , RyanG could have chosen not to become involved, protect the page to stop the edit war, and move on. Or he could have chosen to become an active editor, partcipate in the content dispute, voice his opinion on Talk, and edit the page accordingly. But he can't have it both ways. The proper thing to do is for him (or another admin) to unprotect the page, and participate in the discussion on Talk, like every other editor. If the revert war does not die down, there are numerous admins who have by now seen what is going on, and unlike RyanG are truly uninvolved, and they may choose to protect the page. Total protection is a very extreme measure, to be taken in very limited cases, and this one does not even come close to it. WP:IAR is not a loophole by which every admin abuse can be excused. Isarig 22:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think m:The wrong version applies here. Kim Bruning 22:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Agreed Freepsbane 23:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Having been involved in the page edit war to a limited extent, it would be prudent for me to disclose all the related information I know and have observed on this case, first and foremost Administrator User:RyanGerbil10 did not revert before protecting the disputed page. He only protected the page after a barrage of reverts came in over the past two days and did what was necessary to prevent the sustained edit war from spilling over into related articles. As stated on the label protection does not amount to an endorsement of the extant version and was correctly done out of prudence. Further more User Isarig has been extremely active in the reversion of that article and has proven unwilling to compromise with other editors, and consistently reverts the article to his specific version; against the consensus of other editors and uses only a single ambiguous source (the source appears to say the opposite of his claims) to backup his position. Additionally Isarig often has taken a belligerent attitude towards other editors, and has engaged in numerous revert wars. Often employing what may border on character assassination against other users along with intimidation, due to these reasons he has been blocked in the past for what has been called “utterly uncivil behavior” a thorough check by an administrator of his User contributions and Talk archive will show that this is little more than the same type of bullying he normally employs against Junior editors. This time however it has been directed against one of the most respected members of the Misplaced Pages community. And is unlikely to work; a good thing as I consider User:RyanGerbil10 to be one of the most helpful administrators in Misplaced Pages. Respectfully Freepsbane 23:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect in your description of the events. As shows, on 19:37, 31 August 2006 User:RyanGerbil10 reverted my edits, well before he protected the page on 13:18, 1 September 2006. As to your description of my actions as "unwilling to compromise with other editors" - I point you, yet agian to the undeniable fact that neither you, nor User:RyanGerbil10 nor any of the anonymous editors who revrted my change have ever bothered trying to explain your edits on the Talk page. User:Threeafterthree and myselfare the only ones who did so. User:RyanGerbil10 may be one of the most helpful administrators in Misplaced Pages, but that does not earn him an exception from clear cut WP policy. Isarig 23:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Tahirih Justice Center edited by son of fundraiser volunteer

I don't know how to report vandalism and abuse but at the Tahirih Justice Center article, the son of a volunteer/benefactor of Tahirih has been building blatant advertising for weeks. He will not back away even when caught. His name is UberCryxic on this board and Egand Kolosi in real life. His mother is Roza Kolosi, a benefactor of the Tahirih Justice Center. His job is to advertise for their coming fundraiser ball on September 27th in Washington DC.

Worse, he has reverted twice and will show no sign of being reasonable. He is acting like he owns the entire article.

I can almost see no action possible except to ask you to investigate or report this blatant manipulation by an organization to the media in a press release.

I am referring to UberCryxic.

This 19 year old man thinks that a Misplaced Pages article belongs to its namesake and, since the Tahirih Justice Center asked him to be their Misplaced Pages Webmaster, this young man who recently moved here from Albania just assumes he can revert, revert, revert when another tries to make a reasonable change.EnglishGarden 18:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to administrators: I am the person in question. However, I have told this user that my mother does not work at the Tahirih Justice Center. Furthermore, the article is Featured and will likely be on the Main Page this month. This user is being disruptive and has been accused of sockpuppetry by someone, though admittedly I don't know how well-founded the allegations are.UberCryxic 17:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, my name is Erald Kolasi and my mother's name is Roza Kolasi. Please do not make this personal. Thank you.UberCryxic 17:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please go here to find out what this user has posted about me. The material is highly personal and unnecessary.UberCryxic 18:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Erald's mother is a fundraiser volunteer for the Tahirih Justice Center. He has written a blatant fundraiser advertisement. Please check the changes I made. Here is the proof that she is a fundraiser/volunteer Mrs. Kolasi

Misplaced Pages should not allow this 19 year old to dominate an article that his mother is a fundraiser for. The press could be alerted to this. It is immoral. This young man needs to be banned or we need to start working together reasonably. EnglishGarden 18:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing could be more frightening than to see a 19 year old say that his blatant, one-sided article is featured and will be on the main page this month...and then watch him get away with this.EnglishGarden 18:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, I am trying to keep this as much away from the personal side of things as possible. I don't specifically know what my mother's involvement at the Benefit on the 27th will be (although I'll call her up and give you a multi-page report on it tomorrow), but I do know that your claim that she works at the organization is false. You stated that she works there. She does not.UberCryxic 18:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are still not disclosing whether there is financial remuneration in this for yourself. A 19 year old male isn't going to work hard as the webmaster of a Misplaced Pages article on a women's political organization in the Washington area whom his mother is a fundraiser/volunteer for...without some kind of interest. You were never harmed by an American male dating a foreign woman. Your interest is military history, etc. There is no reasonable explanation for your interest in the subject matter of this women's organization, except that you are getting financial remuneration from your mother who is a fundraiser for the organization. You are guarding the article like a lion. This shows that you fear that your webmaster job is at risk. You do not want to fail. You want to be congratulated. I'll bet you are planning to go to the fundraiser. - This is not funny Erald. This law is serious business and there is a lot of media attention about to come its way. The article must reflect that Tahirih is deeply involved in two lawsuits and that at least one newspaper article per week comes out critical of what Tahirih is doing. You must cease and desist acting like the article belongs to you as the webmaster. EnglishGarden 18:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I would be wary of editing articles where a conflict of interests might be presented. On one hand, you're a Misplaced Pages editor and must maintain NPOV when editing. On the other, it is your job, or a family member's job, to promote this organization. I would steer clear of the article if you're unable to be neutral. Furthermore, it is incorrect for you to assume bad faith in the complaining editor. He may have been accused of sock puppetry in the past, but that is niether here nor there. Please remain on topic. Regards to both, Shazbot85 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note The edits look more like User:EnglishGarden is trying to put his own brand of spin on the page. I'm not an administrator though, but that's as it appears to me, a fellow editor. Shazbot85 18:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Shazbot, your points are well taken, and I can certainly address them, but the main priority as of now should be to get EnglishGarden to stop making all of these personal allegations and references. That is completely unnecessary and contravenes the spirit of Misplaced Pages. It is also frankly making me irritated.UberCryxic 18:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand, but take it in good faith and brush it off, you'll be better off afterwards for it. If someone is making personal allegations that seem inflammatory to you, don't react to them as if they were or the goal of such hypothetical inflammatory statements has been reached, i.e. pissing you off. I'm not saying that is EnglishGarden's aim, I'm just providing some advice on how to deal with allegations. Refute what evidence is provided politely and civily, and the rest will take care of itself. The more banter taking place, the more muddled things get, and the more emotional people become. Regards, Shazbot85 18:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I would advise all concerned here to concentrate on the content, not the personalities. Maligning User:UberCryxic's motivations for editing the article gets nowhere. He certainly does not have to have a financial motive for editing it. In general we frown on 'outing' Misplaced Pages editors' real-world identities; to the degree that anyone is doing it, stop it.

Address the content issues and the behaviour issues, not the personalities. There are established dispute resolution procedures; if necessary, take further steps along those lines, but bear in mind that your own behaviour will also be at issue.

Wikipedians will be more persuaded by showing them what happened, rather than complaining. We will also be much happier if we see more evidence of trying to sort this out in non-combative ways. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well ultimately, I want personal information about me removed from that website. Otherwise, I don't see how this user, or whoever posted those things, should have any credibility.UberCryxic 18:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If there is additional criticism that is relevant, then it should be mentioned in the article. The problem that I have seen from looking at the article's history is the tone of the criticism, its placement and citations. Those things need to be fixed before they go into the article. It should be worked out on the talk page rather than reverting one another. Excluding the ill-placed criticisms, the article overall seems to be slightly biased in favor of the organization, but not irrepairably. -- Kjkolb 23:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible attack page on Drini.

Hello this users page User:ShortJason is calling for Drini to be desysoped. This page was also transcluded into drini's page in order to vandalise it (by User:Preserve Policy). I'm not sure of AN/I is correct for this or not. I have politely asked several times for the user to remove the material from his userspace and informed him it could be considered an attack page now. I feel that having such a page may cause additional and needless problems. I will of course understnad if you all feel that this is not the right place to list this. If so let me know so I will nto make such a mistake in the future. Æon _EA! 21:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into it. Prodego 21:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou. Belatedly I figured out that it is an personal attack on Drini not an Attack Page by policy. Æon _EA! 21:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. ;-) I have blanked the user page, and Tony Sidaway conflicted with my deleting the subpage. It is gone either way though. Prodego 21:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced the page constituted a personal attack. If the user had made the comment at ANI for instence or filed an RfC we would have little objection to the wording. It isn't clear to me why it should therefore be considered a personal attack when it is on his user page. Saying an admin made a mistake is not a personal attack, nor is saying that the admin should be desysoped for the mistake a personal attack by itself. I think the user is wrong and not focusing on the encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean his page needs to be removed. JoshuaZ 21:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your help Prodego! Æon _EA! 21:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No, but creating a userbox saying "This user supports the removal of Drini" is certainly a personal attack. With that in mind I decided the intention of the user page was the same. Prodego 21:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Which was how I felt about it as well. Reason I asked him to removed the content. And after several attempts to convince him I requested SYSOP support. Æon _EA! 21:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Understood. Consider my objections withdrawn. JoshuaZ 21:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

He's also editing from an open proxy () -- \ \ \ \ Antandrus (talk) 22:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

...which I just blocked. Hm, sockpuppetry and vandalism in order to complain about the deletion of a counter-vandalism page. Antandrus (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't see how calling for the removal of an admin is "certainly a personal attack". Making a userbox was probably dumb and counter-productive but not a personal attack. As for the accusations of sock-puppetry and vandalism, what evidence is there that User:Preserve Policy is User:ShortJason? --Nscheffey 23:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't need any. If a user's first edit is vandalism of a userpage, and is also an edit through an open proxy, there's two reasons for immediate indefinite block. No good-faith newbie does those things. Antandrus (talk) 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Antandrus is right- either a vandalism-only account or editing thru an open proxy is bad enough, but both at once is just too much. No problem at all with a block-on-sight for that. However it's also worth noting as above that calling for the removal of admin is not a personal attack, it's criticism, and we'd all do well to remember the difference. Friday (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I understand that User:Preserve Policy should have certainly been blocked, but the use of pronouns above ("He's also editing from an open proxy," right after "I asked him to remove the content,") seemed to imply Preserve Policy and ShortJason were one and the same. If that wasn't the implication, I withdraw my concern. And, Friday, couldn't have said it better. Criticism of an admin is not a personal attack, and labeling it so confuses and inflames the discussion. --Nscheffey 00:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Also I didn't mean to imply that User:Preserve Policy and User:ShortJason are the same (don't have any evidence either way, just a hunch they're not). The sockpuppet is just a garden-variety troublemaker, imho. Antandrus (talk) 00:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree with those who have noted that calling for an admin's desysopping is not – in and of itself – a personal attack, nor is the simple request or desire blockworthy. However, the manner in which it is done is very important. The right way is to employ some or all of the steps at WP:DR, remaining calm civil at all times. Approaching the admin first is important, as is discussing the matter in an appropriate forum (RfC or WP:AN/I) if polite one-to-one conversation fails. If those steps fail to resolve the issue, Arbitration is typically the last step.

Note that none of those steps involve the creation of a let's-rassle-up-a-posse-and-string-'em-up userbox. Recruiting a lynch mob is never an acceptable method of dispute resolution, and is blockworthy as eminently disruptive behaviour that runs counter to our goals here. That the editor has started creating sockpuppets and editing from open proxies to continue his crusade adds weight and merit to the initial decision to block. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. There are appropriate dispute resolution mechanisms available, but trying to propagate a userbox like that goes far beyond the limits of acceptable attempts at resolving disputes. -- Samir धर्म 02:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, where is the evidence that ShortJason is "creating sockpuppets and editing from open proxies,"? --Nscheffey 02:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible image copyright problems

Not vandalism, but User:JoeDestructive seems to be uploading a lot of images that appear to be movie stills, and marking them as self-created, public domain. Can someone please take a look at this? -- The Anome 00:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

(On review) Yes, all the images seem to have similar problems. -- The Anome 00:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible WP:USERNAME??

Margaret Choad has been (apparently) vandalizing Cracker (pejorative) (according to users Treebark and Wandering Star, anyway); has deleted one such warning from their userpage (with a contemptuous edit summary), and edits the article on Margaret Cho, which additionally brings up concerns re: the username. I'm not too conversant with the policy on this. I notice that there is a ban on names of well-known living people, as well a ban on using "creative substitutions" to abuse the above rule, as well as "defamatory" usernames. (Note that "choad" is a vulgar epithet meaning "a penis".)

I am curious as to whether the username constitutes a violation of WP:USERNAME. Thanks, Kasreyn 02:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, go ahead and block it under the username policy. User:Zscout370 02:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It's an obvious unfunny pun on a very vulgar Hindi word. The Margaret Cho joke has been made many times by those who speak Hindi. I've blocked indefinitely -- Samir धर्म 02:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I'm flattered by your confidence in me, but I am not an administrator. ^_^;; Kasreyn 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI: I just blocked User:Margaret Chode for the same reason - GIen 03:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be justifiable to conclude that a sockpuppeteer is at work? Kasreyn 03:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

User:PEAR

Anyone remember that thread about this editor about a month ago? He just transformed into a full-blown vandal account: PEAR (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log). I only blocked for 24 hours, since he has a history of some good work, but... what's up with this person? Antandrus (talk) 02:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Old thread is here ]. Antandrus (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You got your block in about 5 seconds before I could. I was going for a 1 week block. Redirecting Israel to Nazi is not something you do by accident, especially given his string of edits today. He started going off the rails a couple of days ago. My guess is this is a "sleeper" acount, trying to build up a good reputation in the hope we'd deal with him less harshly when he started his vandalism spree. Gwernol 02:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Could well be ... (my first guess was it was Friday night and he's had a couple too many). Feel free to change the block length if you feel it's appropriate (you or anyone else). Antandrus (talk) 02:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to leave the current block and see what happens tomorrow. If he starts up with the same sort of vandalism again I'd go for a significnatly longer block on sight. There's always a chance he's a little worse for wear (that was my second choice of explanation) and will regret it in the morning. Gwernol 02:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Think At Least Twice is a sockpuppet of Zen-master

Think At Least Twice (talk · contribs · count) is a sockpuppet of Zen-master (talk · contribs · count). obvious connection based on new account, behavior, comments. --Rikurzhen 02:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of such. Old TI-89 02:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the user was created, then went straight to Talk:Race and intelligence and commented with the exact same ideal, and manner of converstation, as Zen-master would be enough for me. Daniel.Bryant 03:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's it. Please block. --Rikurzhen 04:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:Giano & WP:CIVIL Redux

I just read through the archived User: Gianot & WP:Civil section above and feel a tad compelled to say something. As a fairly new user who is still baffled and bewildered by the workings and nonworkings of Misplaced Pages, I feel as if I just read the transcript of a grade school yard dispute. "He said blah. Yeah, but she called me blah first. No, she didn't. Did too!" Excuse me. Has everyone here forgotten what your saintly mothers told you? Sticks and stones can break your bones, but personal attacks will NEVER hurt you. Kids, grow up. Worry more about the falsehoods and George Bush-quality English that's pooring into Misplaced Pages like water over the dikes of the New Orleans. That's what can really hurts us. Askolnick 03:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I imagine you mean "pouring". ;) Metamagician3000 05:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, best to leave it there. Metamagician3000 06:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Bogus Sprotect Tags Posted by Vandal

132.241.246.111 (listed amongst suspected sockpuppets of Grazon) has inserted a bogus “{{sprotect}}” into the article on Madge Oberholtzer:

attack

and another into that on D. C. Stephenson:

attack

and yet another to that on Timothy_McVeigh:

attack

This comes as part of a more general programme of prowling around Misplaced Pages to remove facts that are unfortunate for the party that he favors, and to spin or falsify other articles to disparage opposing political groups.

He has also tried to confuse the situation by adding my present IP number to the list of suspected sockpuppets of Grazon.

If you will examine his history of edits and his block log, then you'll see that he has been treated with great indulgence for a long time. —75.13.99.82 03:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I don't know what the drill is for removing that “suspected sock puppet” thing. If an administrator could examine the charge and (on the presumption that I'm found innocent) remove the thing, then I'd appreciate it. —75.13.99.82 04:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Move page war on Kitty Pryde

Page has been moved back and forth three times in the past day. Request move protection to stop the war and would like to reopen the debate, as only three people said to move it. Hbdragon88 04:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll add more on this later (as time permits), but the proper name should be used. In this case, Katherine Pryde would be approperiate, with Shadowcat and "Kitty" Pryde redirecting to Katherine Pryde. Katherine Pryde is the name of the character as stated in the biography. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 05:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

With some reluctance, I've protected the page. I'm not going to leave it like that forever, but you guys really need to sort it out on the talk page rather than moving the page back and forth ... so you're stuck with it as I found it until the dispute calms down a bit. If someone wants to re-open the debate, do it there on the talk page. Although I simply protected the version I found, rather than deciding what I think is the "right" version, this one does seem to have most support at the moment. Those wanting something different really should try to persuade others rather than reverting and conveying their reasons in edit summaries, as has been happening. Metamagician3000 07:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that the discussion (started on August 12) was closed on August 18 by a non-sysop, who then proceded to do a cut-and-paste move to Kitty Pryde. This was reverted, and the page was not properly moved until August 27, where it was reverted; and then for the recent move page war on September 1 and September 2. Hbdragon88 07:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

new vulag personal attack

once again there is a personal attack on me, see (reverted) Reconcilee, where Koukal is my real name; it was posted by User:Židák Koukal where Židák is a very vulgar expression for Jews. See also Thanks, -jkb- 08:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked -- Samir धर्म 10:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

thx, -jkb- 10:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

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