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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Amoruso (talk | contribs) at 22:01, 2 September 2006 (→Charges against Moyne). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Removed here for now:

One act that most enraged those who would later plan his death was his alleged role in an obscure negotiation with German diplomats during the war to trade non-armament military supplies to the Nazis in exchange for ten thousand Jewish refugees. The Baron ridiculed the offer, and reportedly was quoted as asking his counterparts: "But what would I do with 10 thousand Jews?"

This story (usually told about "one million Jews") is probably apocryphal. Supposedly this was said to Joel Brand, with no other witnesses, but there is an article of Yehuda Bauer where he shows that Brand changed the story over time and once even told it of someone other than Moyne. There's also the question of whether this story was known at all before the Moyne assassination. --Zero 15:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

It was a million Jews ,not ten thousand. Regardless of whether or not you believe that Moyne said it, it did not bring about his assassination. It was simply not known to those who killed him and was made public years later. F1list 12:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

the statements at the time do confirm that the main reason for the assassination was Moyne's persistent refusal to help Jews fleeing from Europe. Amoruso 01:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Source request

Can we have a source, please, for "Brand's associations both with Eichmann and the Lehi raise some doubts about his credibility"? Cheers, SlimVirgin 12:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

added sources

I expanded on the allegations of his anti-zionism and brought the citation from the book of Bell. I asked for tags on the other side allegations. Amoruso 02:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Category:Anti-Semitic people

Can we source that this guy belongs in this category? I removed it until we get sources calling/listing him as belonging. Thanks --Tom 18:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi. the reason for his assassination was that he was an alleged anti semite. I think the whole article suggests this theory very very strongly. Amoruso 20:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Ok, alleged. OK, theory. Ok, suggests. Again, sources? The article says he was anti-Zionist. Anyways, until we can properly source this....--Tom 21:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Lehi, including the assassins themselves, said that Lord Moyne is responsible for the killing of thousands of Jews. He was accused for having anti jewish sentiments, for them being jews - that's also the only interpretation one can make of the alleged line by moyne - "what should I do with a million jews".... if there ever was an anti semite remark it will be this, and this was also said by Brand as for the anti jewish sentiments. Few people would call themselves anti-semites and this is probably true for any "deragatory" category. Perhaps these categories shouldn't exist but as for alleged people fitting in that category, none fit better than Lord Moyne, and the readers can read the article for themselves and decide. Amoruso 16:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, thats my point above. Nobody should be deciding anything, thats original research. Just provide sources that label/call him an anti-semite. Its not up to editors to read an article and then say yeah that guy belongs in this or that category. Look at Mel Gibson and Richard Nixon. Should they be added to that category? Their comments would sure seem like they belong?..Anyways...--Tom 18:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It should definitely apply to Mel Gibson. In fact, I would add it, but the topic seems very controversial at the moment and we should wait for developments. As for sources, claiming Lord Moyne was an anti-semite, I really don't know what else you're looking for. If somebody murders/kills someone, do you need someone to call him a "killer/murderer" or is he a killer/murderer by what he did ? Moyne is quoted as saying the above and that the Jews are a mixture of races and not pure race like the arabs and that his anti jewish sentiments were the reason for assassination like quoted above. anti jewish = anti semite... Amoruso 18:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

(moved back to right side) Hi Amoruso, funny you mention the killer/murderer reference. To answer your question, YES, we do need him to be labeled as such. Look at Baruch Goldstein Should he be labeled a murder victim? What I am looking for is reliable sources that LABEL/CALL this guy an anti-semite, period. Not what he said, not what he did, not what is obvious to everybody. I don't know if this guy is a scumbag or not. If he said the things he has supposidely said, sure, scumbag. I'm not here to figure that out. I'm here to make sure that people added to lists or categories belong there based on reliable sources saying so and not original research. I am not saying he shouldn't be added, just that it should be sourced...--Tom 19:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

As of matter of historical fact, Baruch Goldstein should probably also be named as a murder victim, yes. It's controversial because of the circumstances, but you can see that in the article that that's how it's reported and verified, that he was killed afterwards... it's simply very sensitive in the context. But that's not the case here. Reliable sources said that he said those things, is that not enough ? Do they need to actually use the word "anti semite" ? they did use the word anti jewish. Amoruso 20:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say yes, reliable sources should say he is an anti-semite. I looked over the article and saw that he was said to be anti-Zionist. Was he also said to be anti-Jewish? Anyways...I'm pooped, can we continue this tomorrow? :) Have a good evening! --Tom 23:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I've decided that you are correct. Most observers will name him as "anti zionist" and not "anti semite". I guess that in some perverted sense of the term he might not have been an anti semite. Leave the category out. good night and thanks for the discussion. Amoruso 01:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This sort of labelling is pathetic. Actually he was no worse than the average British politician of the time, take that however you like. --Zero 00:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually even the "anti-Zionist" label needs qualification. Contrary to his image, Moyne supported the creation of a Jewish state after the war. I'll bring a source for this. I'll also bring an academic source that discounts (or considers unlikely) the claimed "million Jews" quip. --Zero 12:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC) It turns out that the British government had just secretly decided to partition Palestine after the war between Jewish and Arab states, with Moyne's active support. The Moyne assassination caused them to drop the plan, according to quite a few historians (I'll bring cites). So the possibility exists that Lehi actually delayed the creation of Israel for a few years. --Zero 16:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Ben Hecht is on the borderline as far as reliable sources go. He writes very much from the Revisionist point of view. --Zero 16:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

that's a ridicilous accusation. Moyne was self declared anti zionist, if it was up to him Jews would have gone to Madagascar. And he was justly held responsible for the outcome of the struma and the patria and other ships. His refusal to help the Hungarian Jews is the peak of all this. There are hundreds of historians who back this up (any new citations brought will be refuted). Amoruso 16:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Those who consider Moyne to be an anti-Semite should remember that in 1940 he was instrumental in arranging for Churchill's government to imprison his former daughter-in-law (née Diana Mitford), who had remarried to Sir Oswald Mosley. When in Cairo as resident minister he had to deal with the imam of Jersusalem who supported Hitler at a distance. It is fairer to say that he was pig-in-the-middle between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Moderate Jews thought highly of him. He was also threatened by Arabs. Has anyone considered how, in practical terms, 1 million Jews were going to be moved during a war across the front lines? The trucks offer was a wind-up on the part of the Germans, and was not sanctioned by their leadership. Those who describe him as 'anti-semitic' cannot have read his book 'Atlantic Circle' (1932) with its sensitive descriptions of many cultures. Likewise his report on the West Indies (1938-39) was sensitive compared to most. PDG

If Moyne was an anti-semite, and was in charge of the whole Middle East when he was killed, why did he assent to the increase of the Notrim, a police force that developed into the Haganah? It seems that the embarrassment of his assassination can only be dealt with by some people calling him anti-semitic; which Weizmann himself never did. Anti-zionist is quite different from anti-semitic. If he suggested that Madagascar was the ideal Jewish home, it may have been crazy and unworkable but that does not make him an anti-semite; the heading here is 'anti-semitic people'. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Notrim

Thank you, but whoever you are, I'm afraid you're too late. The anti-semite category was dropped. What's embarassing, if we're getting into it, is Weizmann's statements of him, and the collboration of the yishuv with the atrocious acts made by the British and Moyne in regard to the Hungarian Jews. But this is not a discussion board. Amoruso

I see a lot of 'discussion' above that is based on hearsay. 'alleged role...obscure negotiations' is not good enough for me. My grandfather died at Auschwitz in late 1944 after 5 years at Terezin, and I am interested in Moyne but I don't hold a grudge. Let's look at the facts. Hearsay that Lehi wanted to believe, plus their need to do something spectacular, caused Moyne's death. He was a figurehead. Let's not be naive, there was no real trucks deal and no offer to free anyone. Himmler tried an angle as he knew the war was lost. Hitler would never have agreed to it.

I have introduced some new points above that are not on Moyne's pages. I also mind when people use other peoples' miseries in the Holocaust to try to score points without examining the whole picture. Moyne supported Churchill's anti-Nazi position before the 1939 war. Moyne didn't take part in the Holocaust and didn't kill anyone except Germans in the First World War. My grandfather who died in 1944 was a native Berliner who won an iron cross in that same war. In Egypt when Moyne started there, the main threat was from Rommel. He seems more interesting than the caricature English colonial ruler. We would love that raids on the camps on Poland could have been made by the allies, but it didn't happen. Are we saying that all anti-semites deserve to die? I have Hasidic friends who are anti-Zionist. Or that Chaim Weizmann was not a good judge of humanity? In the 1940s he was a hero to most Jews; fact. CW may be 'embarrassing' to you, fine, you have a view, this is a page about Moyne and not CW, but many of us think CW was a good man. Enough.

• 1) Please sign your comments.
• 2) Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. You need to understand the way WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:V work. The deal of Eichmann with Kastner and Brand is all very fully documented , and there are numerous historians who refer to this at utmost importance. It was a very real and serious deal.
• 3) The fact you're holding a differnet POV is your prerogative on this.
• 4) Remember that this is not a discussion board. We're all good persons, I was just referring to the specific issue at hand. It's not a place to expand on zionist-anti zionist debates and so on. Amoruso 18:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool it you two. If the main source is J. Bowyer Bell, he wrote 6 books on the IRA, who would never have liked the idea of an Irishman like Mr. Guinness being a part of the British Establishment. Yes, the same IRA who were armed by the USSR and Libya in the 1970-80s and appreciated Arafat and Castro. They finally disarmed in the last year or so. Small quote from their 2003 obit: 'Bowyer Bell's work on Ireland is head and shoulders above other writers on the conflict here. His scholarly work stands out, especially when compared to the shelves of Irish bookstores filled with the tawdry ramblings of informers, disgruntled British agents and journalistic rush jobs.' Source: http://republican-news.org/archive/2003/August28/28bowy.html wikiman

Bowyer Bell's style was to interview lots of people but to stay away from archives. His personal access to members of the Jewish underground groups, and to British officials, was rather spectacular and this makes his books fascinating to read and full of lively personal anecdotes. However, one should always compare his accounts to that of academic historians who have dug out the original documents, since personal accounts are very often (I'd say "usually") self-serving adjustments of reality. --Zero 02:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

ridicilous POV based on a minority of historians, perhaps only one

it now looks like a tribute to Moyne the martyr, even though his personal responsiblity in the fate of the hungarian jews and other european refugees is fully documented. this was the main reason for the assassination. Amoruso 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to attempt to bring back the whole sections being deleted for no reasons without reverting to the old version. It may require complete clean up. Amoruso 20:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Many of your additions are destructive. Btw, I looked at Katz's book today for the first time in years and was disgusted. It is just a collection of standard myths listed one after the other. I'll go further: the treatment of Arabs is grotesque and racist. --Zero 22:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

this is not a discussion board and your strange alleged opinion over Katz's history book is irrelevant. I can assure you I have stronger (and obviously more reality based) emotions about Khalidy or Morris fantasy books etc. My additions were severely needed to make the article in high standard again, like it was. The edits made to the previously balanced and perfected article were destructive. Amoruso 00:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with amoruso that some editing has happened, e.g. some Bowyer Bell quotes. I don't agree 100% with Bell, but the references should not have been removed. Also I put in a reference to the Casablanca Conference that was removed. By whom? Why? It was the rules of engagement with the enemy. There was a war on, as far as the top brass in Cairo knew.

I did some (unpublished) work on Moyne in relation to the 'Other Club' in the 1930s. I also divided up his early life but have left the last sections as Israeli historiography is not my area. But consider that his early career went up to age 62. He was an over-achiever, I don't think he was a saint, but it is a bigger story overall than was here last week.

I added in Churchill's and Channon's views at the end to give a British perspective, if that's all right with everyone. They sent one of their best guys to Cairo and he still got it wrong.

I came to this at the weekend and thought that the page would be full of anthropology in Indonesia etc. I brought his three books, which is what wikipedia is all about.

The above comments on antisemitic etc. - everyone will have their view and none should be edited. Moyne was friends with Philip Sassoon and a lover of Ida Rubenstein who were both Jewish. I suspect (my POV) that he liked clever people and if they were Jewish he didn't mind; but he didn't seek out Jewish company. I'm not at all defending him there to do with the Struma and Hungarians, just my POV. So it's not on the article page.

There is one aspect that I would like us all to agree on, that is not mentioned. Just before Moyne was killed, Weizmann and Churchill had some meeting of minds and Weizmann was on his way from England to see Moyne. Some say that Moyne was killed then to stop a deal, others that the deal wasn't great. Moyne had no protection force, perhaps because he was meeting Weizmann and didn't feel threatened. How is that to be presented? Where? Suggestions here please?

A few days before Moyne was killed, Churchill informed Weizmann about the partition plan that had been tabled in the Cabinet. Churchill suggested that Weizmann should go to Cairo to discuss it with Moyne (who was a supporter of the plan). However, nothing I read suggests that this planned meeting had anything to do with the assassination. By the time of the Churchill-Weizmann meeting, the assassination was already scheduled. --Zero 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for that..Wikiman 11:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Brand was clearly a hero (my POV) and Moyne was not a martyr, but there is a lot on him in many areas and it is all verifiable. I'd like to add more on his parliamentary interests in 1910-1930, but not much. I don't seek to annoy anyone. Wikiman 09:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, one more point. Could someone add when Brand was brought to Cairo and when he left? I've found some variety and it's not my area. But a date or month should be in there somewhere. Wikiman 09:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a serious error to charge Moyne with blocking the "Jews for Trucks" scheme. In fact there is no cause to discuss that proposal in this article except to introduce the alleged "million jews" remark. Moyne did not have the authority to agree or disagree to Eichmann's scheme. The only thing he could do was to send reports to London, which he did repeatedly. --Zero 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Moyne did not suggest in the House of Lords that the Jews should be sent to Madagascar. I have his whole speech right here. Actually he proposed Transjordan, Syria and Lebanon. --Zero 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The political decisions about Palestine and what could be done for Holocaust refugees in 1943-44 must also be considered in the light of the doctrine of Cabinet collective responsibility, and so if Moyne is considered by some today to be a type of war criminal, then by the same standard so are Churchill and his other ministers. Moyne was a full member of that cabinet from January to November 1944.Wikiman 13:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

no problem to add more sources, but sources from bell, katz and others should not be deleted by zero's vandalism. Bell talks about the madagascar speech, and tha'ts mentioned. Amoruso 20:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

are we off the NPOV situation, as far as you are concerned, or what?Wikiman 21:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

it's fine like this, as long as it stays this way... Amoruso 21:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

clean up of intro

I let the rest of you fight over the quotes and who is a reliable historian, ect. I am just trying to clean up the intro. Lehi has its own entry so it doesn't seem necessary to define and explain their actions. Also removed long and interesting life fluff. Anyways...--Tom 21:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

looks fine to me , thanks. Amoruso 21:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

who removed this?

I put in the 'blood for trucks' section this referenced item.

Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis."

What is objectionable about this? Who removed it and why? Lots of attention given to Brand and Moyne 'did he say it or not' - all good stuff - but you need to have another view of the situation. Thinking about it, they had a one month window to save the last Hungarian Jews, if they got onto it straight away, and shipping them perhaps to the frontline in Italy might have helped some. But obviously the nazis weren't waiting around, and had already killed most of the unfortunates. Do we need two articles, 'Moyne's first 62 years before Cairo' and 'Moyne's last two years in Cairo'?Wikiman 22:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

it was removed by accident because of the vandalism made on earlier versions. Amoruso 23:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

this all should be added :

Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis."

Those weeks proved to be crucial. Between mid-May and early July, about 437,000 Hungarian Jews boarded the "resettlement trains" that carried them to the Auschwitz death camps, where most were immediately gassed. The first transport of Hungarian Jews to the Auschwitz death camp was on April 29,1944 (Yehuda Bauer ,Freikauf von Juden). Mass transports of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz began on May 14, 1944. The last mass transport of 14,491 Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz was on July 9, 1944 where they were gassed upon arrival (Franciszek Piper, Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz).

No problem there. If someone turns up in a war on foot, with a message from the 'other side', it always has to be checked out, which takes time. The Venlo incident early in WW2 caused the British to be cautious. Supposing Moyne and his officials had said yes-OK in mid-June, and somehow Brand was able to get that back to the SS, how many might actually have been saved thru Italy? Not the whole 437,000 obviously? 20,000? Let us all know what you think.Wikiman 07:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Eichmann was ready not to send any Hungarian jews to the death camps. Personally I'd think that when someone knows that his lack of action will result in the horrible death of thousands of people including small children, he would send the goods ASAP with no delay and without arresting the guy which was sent to save them. Amoruso 08:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely, and in hindsight it is very obvious to us today, but there was a war on. The 'Venlo incident' in 1940 occurred on the Dutch border, where some British agents were kidnapped and tortured by the Germans, following just such a lead. Very unsporting of the Germans, to say the least, and it affected all such contacts later in the war. Most were disbelieved. That's why the first mentions of the Holocaust in 1942 from Poles were not believed. It was a war to the death. Because we know that Brand was genuine, we can say now that he should have been believed at once, but in 1944 it wasn't so obvious. He had to be 'processed' through lesser officials, and if his story stayed the same they might think he was genuine. By the time he was allowed into Moyne's presence it was too late for most of the victims; Eichmann didn't wait.

Let me suppose - hypothetically - that today a man comes off the street, perhaps an Iranian saying he has nuclear secrets, and wants to see PM Olmert or Pres. Bush at once without being searched or interrogated, would he be allowed to see him just like that? I don't think so. To the British officials in 1944 Brand was an enemy alien, given that Hungary was at war with Britain. It took a month of processing, and that is terrible, but the British could never take the word of an emissary from the SS on day one. That is why Brand says he was questioned repeatedly.

When they did meet, naturally Brand was hugely upset at the delays, but he also said in one account that in a group of 15-20 people around a table, Moyne came and sat beside him. That does not indicate support, but it does indicate that Moyne wanted to hear directly from the man himself once he had passed thru the wartime 'system'. Crossed wires all round?Wikiman 09:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It could be that the British intentions and interests were geniune. Many of the books on this issue put a lot of blame on them and in the historical context they assume that really they didn't care much of the Hungarian Jews. And I think you'd agree that they really didn't. It's not because they were evil, but consider this an equation. If there's 100% chance that Brand's mission was fraud then of course they'd refuse right ? Though this assertion also needs work... a humnatirian approach would still argue to try to save Jews - even one soul. But the basic accusation against the british from the holocaust scholars is that even if the british had 1% belief that this was a fraudelent deal, then they'd still ignore Brand and imprison him, because saving Jews was really not a priority. On the contrary, saving Jews was a burden. This falls in line with the reasons for not bombing concentration camps, train roads and other targets which could have helped the Jews. As for the British specifically, this falls in line with closing down the gates of Israel for ships, ships which would have to return to the carnage in Europe, because they won't have the cetificate and the ridicilous quotas enforced by the White paper were filled.... if you really look at it at that context, then that Iranian (someone who announced something about Iranians perhaps as a better example as Brand was not a nazi was he) would come and say that hundred of thousands of people are walking into gas chambers, then one would believe that the person in question is talking about a serious enough issue that prompts immediate investigation and relief. He won't sit in prison for weeks while his people are being genocided in the final days of the war for no reason. You'd think that if there was no anti-semitism and a general humanitarian care, something would have been done regardless of a cold calculation of what's the best tactic currently in the war, it would have been an issue which transcends those considerations. Regardless, I think it's clear that the ALLEGATIONS and ACCUSATIONS were based enough which motivated the assassination. The RESULT is what mattered to the Jewish who wished to avenge the Hungarian Jews Genocide... the result clearly put much of the culprit at the British (and also at the Haganah as Brand would testify) who could have saved the Jews had they really put their efforts into it, and even if it was an error of judgement - well, it was a GROSS and one would say CRIMINAL error of judgement. Amoruso 13:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not defending any errors of judgement by Britain or Moyne. My Iranian analogy was imperfect; there is no comparison for someone in Brand's shoes, but in wartime a stranger is not believed at once. The ship numbers were very small and would not have made a difference. How long would it take to deliver 10,000 trucks? I can't say. How long to entrain the Hungarian Jews to the Italian front (at least the Italians were not in a position to object). The overall policy was a cause for the assassination, and Moyne was following orders. He was also targeted by extreme Arabs. I understand both Lehi's view and the British view, I don't agree with either 100%, but wikipedia should have a place for both. But we should guard against repetition?Wikiman 14:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed both sides should be brought, it's just the background as seen by lehi should be detailed. "Following orders" is also what Eichmann claimed and in both cases from their positions I wouldn't accept this definition. You're talking about the plausibility of the trucks deal, a deal Brand himself was skeptical of the success. But the offer was real since Eichmann halted transfers for two weeks. Eichmann then promised to release 100,000 Jews for a principled acceptment of the deal. Why couldn't the British just say they agree and release atleast those 100,000 ? It's because they didn't want them jewish refugees, especially not in Palestine... this is why Moyne's remark also makes so much sense. He had nowhere to put the Jews since he didn't want them in Palestine according to the White Paper and no european country (nor the U.S) wanted such influx of Jews either. By the way, Ehud Avriel was a very dubious person who promised Brand that he won't be arrested, and then abandoned him... I also think that this proposal in its totality wasn't feasible, but it's the moral issue that hurt so much - it's that indifference and the total subordination to the White Paper which outlawed further jewish immigration. Blood for goods proposal also contradicted the allies laws, but the "justification" for keeping a strict policy when 12,000 people are being gassed every day can blow your mind. Moyne's assassination was a symbolic romantic revenge for the genocide of the Jewish people... Lehi said it explicitly. Amoruso 16:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Moyne was in reach and the Germans were not.Wikiman 17:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I mostly agree with you. We have to remember that Brand was brought to Cairo only one week after D-Day. I certainly think that Brand was an honest guy and his reports on Eichmann's offer were accurate to his ability. However, it wasn't just a matter of the British believing Brand; more importantly they had to believe Eichmann. Why should they? Did Eichmann have a reputation for integrity? The stuff I've read about the British reaction did not focus only on whether Brand was telling the truth, but also whether Eichmann's offer could be taken seriously. Actually they were certain that it must be some sort of trick, either aimed at disrupting the Allied war effort, or aimed at a settlement with the West that excluded the Russians (which was certainly the mission of Grosz). Nobody believed that the offer was as straightforward as it looked, and that question remains open today. I've been reading the journal literature on this and I don't think I have found any argument that the plan was plausible. Most writers consider it to have been completely impossible. Incidentally, there was also a plan hatched to convince the Nazis to accept cash instead of trucks. This originated with the Jewish Agency but was supported by the US rep in Turkey and also by Moyne (Friling, Holocaust and Genocide Studies, V13 N3, Winter 1999, pp. 405-436). --Zero 12:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Details

• Moyne's speech in Lords in 1942 does not say that the Jews should go to Madagascar. It doesn't matter who later claimed that it did when the Hansard verbatim transcript is available in hundreds of libraries. --Zero 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

he probably mentioned it in that speech, before or after the transcript. but it's no longer there for a long time now. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have not found a single mainstream historian who denies that Churchill was the Zionists' main supporter in the UK government in 1944. I cited a ridiculous number of academic historians who state this quite explicitly. The mainstream Zionists of the time had the same opinion. Of course the Revisionists disagreed, as they considered as an enemy anyone who supported less than a vast Jewish state on both sides of the Jordan River. We don't use fringe opinions in our main narrative. We can add a sentence like "(Lehi and the Zionist right-wing did not regard Churchill as a supporter anyway.)" but we can't suppress the consensus view. --Zero 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether Churchill was a Zionist or not is not related to this article. Most sources agree that Chrurcill vastly changed his views over time. The article says that the incident subdued his support further, which is what sources say. His general opinion is irrelevant. It's a stretch to say that the person who decided unialtrely to cut Transjordan from the Jewish national home is a great zionist supporter anyway. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Brand did not positively identify Moyne in his testimony in the Eichmann trial. What he did was repeat his earlier story that someone he could not identify said something to him and later someone else told him it was Moyne. We should give a precise report, as my text does, and not color it with our own wishes. --Zero 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

wrong, he was asked about Moyne specifically. You can read it, and he said he was sure of him. That's why he was questioned in the stand. In fact, he never said it wasn't Moyne, despite your wishes. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

He said "as I was leaving, I was told that the person I had spoken to was Lord Moyne", just like I reported. That was his explanation for why he believed it was Moyne. He gave no other explanation. And, yes, his autobiography DOES say that he had learned that he was wrong. Didn't you read it? --Zero 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who linked to the trial's transcript. He confirmed that it was Moyne. His autobiography doesn't say that, I don't know why you're lying since it's in the article. Someone told him it might have been someone else and apparently that someone was wrong. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Exact quotation from Brand's autobiography: "I afterwards heard that the man with whom I spoke was not, in fact, Lord Moyne, but another British statesman. Unfortunately I have no means of verifying this." I had it beside me, sorry you don't like it. --Zero 13:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is what I said. But you lied by saying : "his autobiography DOES say that he had learned that he was wrong". You're actually refuting yourself. Amoruso 13:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Why not tell us where you got the Reitlinger and Poliakov citations from? This is a serious matter. I accuse you of copying these citations from "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews" published by the Institute for Historical Review, available several places such as here. Proof: (1) Both your citations are there using the same editions, though both books were published in many editions. (2) Even stranger that you should both choose the Italian edition of Reitlinger's German book. (3) Your Reitlinger citation has the same two typos in the name: "it tentativo" instead of "il tentativo" and "1939- 1945" with a spurious space. (4) Your English translation of Poliakov's French text is word for word the same. (5) You make the same choices in giving the English translation of the title: ( ) in one case and in the other. Why should we take you seriously when you copy stuff from Holocaust deniers? --Zero 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

do you dispute the quotes or not ? If not, it really doesn't matter who used them for what purpose as long as they're accurate. It has nothing to do with holocaust denial. They were used in numerous place. I took them from my own material. IHR must have copy pasted from that. But I fail to see why it matters or what you accuse. You're being ridicilous. They're historians who wrote somethings in relevant in their history books, your original research in trying to find out who got what information is bordering on insanity. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on Reitinger or Poliakov because I only give opinions on sources I have checked. You never checked them either and you got caught. I'm disappointed that you couldn't think of a better alibi. While you are copy-pasting from Neo-Nazi web sites, I am in the library. You should try it. --Zero 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't caught at anything, and you further embarrass yourself by talking about irrelevant issues. Obviously IHR quoted Reitinger and Poliakov too, and that has nothing to do with anything. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Your claim about what Reitlinger said is from the text of the Holcaust denier, not from the quotation they give. I have not checked what Reitlinger really wrote about Brand, but since his book came out in the same year as Brand published his retraction (source: Library of Congress), it doesn't add anything. --Zero 07:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

That's even more ludricous. Reitlinger is a WP:RS source and it's pertinent to the article. We can also take out the whole Wasserstein quotations out and say they don't add anyhting. You have a peculiar habit of deeming WP:RS which you don't like for your political reasons as either unreliable, irrelevant or adding nothing. Please take your WP:POV wars out of wikipedia. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is why I suggest two pages / articles on Moyne. Before 1942-1944 he had no overt views on Jews or Arabs, yet the bulk of this debate is about Jewish politics and identity. I don't mind that - it should be be set down somewhere - that is why he died. Why not link the Holocaust angle to Churchill's article as well? But considering pre-1940 British political studies and Moyne's part in that era, there is no record that he had strong views either way. If there was any proof, I would be the first to add it in. I hope nobody minds a focus also on his life before Cairo; I am a British historian. Clearly Britain did not belong in Palestine and should have pulled out in about 1930, IMHO.Wikiman 08:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you expanded nicely about his general biography before, but since he's known for his assassination, like you mention, obviously large part of the article should be connected to the reason he was killed - which by the accounts relate to his role in not saving the hungarian jews and by obstructing refugee ships (and his other comments). also his specifc role was based as a target of course. Amoruso 08:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The story around assassination is his most famous 'contribution' to Israeli history, but if he had never been sent to Cairo the first 62 years of his life was of interest to us British. Personally, I very much wish that his death was the last in the conflict over (what was then) mandated Palestine. Of itself it didn't solve the whole problem in one stroke.Wikiman 09:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

you're right... I don't object the creation of two articles of course though I believe it's not customary. The conflict will probably never be solved, much due to blatant lies by obssesed propogandists like Zero. Not everybody acts on good faith alas... Amoruso 11:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikiman, your work is excellent. Sorry that it is hard to work amidst this conflict. Unfortunately we have here a representative of the extreeeeeme Israeli right wing who has never read a book more serious than Battleground by Shmuel Katz, who was the Irgun's main propagandist and a Greater Israel proponent. To illustrate Katz's place in the political spectrum, he had a big fight with Menachem Begin when the latter agreed to use the phrase "Palestine Arab" in English communications with the Americans. --Zero 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Zero, your trying to suck up here is truly awful. You are in constant violation of Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks so there you have it... you only show your ignorance all the time... honestly I don't know what you're doing in wikipedia except pushing your WP:POV. You're a notrious Arab propogandist who only read sources that are confirmed with the Hamas Charter, and then blame others for POV , LOL. Don't pretend as if you actually read books. Amoruso 11:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Brand's last word on Blood for Trucks

New York Times, May 21, 1964.
Allied Rift Called Aim of '44 Nazi Ransom Plan
FRANKFURT, Germany, May 20 - Joel Brand, whom the Nazis used as an envoy in their unsuccessful plan to trade the lives of a million Jews for 10,000 trucks, said today that the plan was actually aimed at splitting the Soviet-Western Alliance. Mr. Brand, a former Budapest resident and now an Israeli citizen, gave a detailed account of the origin and failure of the plan at the trial here of Hermann Krumey and Otto Hunsche, two of Adolf Eichmann's closest collaborators in the extermination of Hungarian Jews, in 1944. He testified "that though the deal was suggested by Eichmann" it must have originated in the mind of Himmler as one of his desperate attempts at driving a wedge between the Allies." ... "I made a terrible mistake in passing this on to the British," Mr. Brand said. "It is now clear to me that Himmler sought to sow suspicion among the Allies as a preparation for his much desired Nazi-Western coalition against Moscow," he said.

do we need 2 pages?

You see why I suggested 2 pages? If mandated Palestine had been empty in the 1920s I don't think the British would have objected in the least bit to any number of Jewish immigrants, and setting up a state, but there were some people living there already and there had been some riots etc. by 1939. The wartime policy was designed to stop further killings in mandated Palestine, and was unpopular with both the more extreme Arabs and Jews. It may not have been flexible or imaginative, but it was designed to preserve the lives of all or most Jews and Arabs living there.

Clearly by 1944 Jews-in-Palestine and Jews-in-Axis-countries had a unique bond with all other Jews. But from Cairo's point of view, only the Jews-in-Palestine were their subjects (horrible word, but that was the word) and responsibility, and they wanted to avoid provoking the Arabs. These 'subjects' had to be protected, as it were, from themselves. A parent-child relationship that we can say was silly, but typical of all empires. 'Mandated' meant impermanent. Iraq had been turned over to a friendly king; Palestine would be turned over when a solution acceptable to most Jews and Arabs had been worked out. You've gathered by now that my POV is anti-empire and Moyne was very much pro-empire; but that was usual for his background and time.

At least the extra detail I've put in can allow Israeli and Jewish-interest researchers to understand more about Lord M, as up to now he might as well have been a wooden gatepost. When I said (somewhere above) that London had sent out one of the best guys for the job, of course I meant 'best' in Churchill's mind; in light of their 20-year friendship, which became very personal from 1934. When Britain linked its pound to gold again in 1925, Churchill was Chancellor and Moyne was his Secretary at the Treasury. They had been political enemies in 1907-1921. I know that this earlier stuff is of no interest to Holocaust studies, but it is to the country that these men came from (and which wikipedia came from), and so I ask from a practical aspect, with no disrespect to any of your views: what about 2 pages, linked of course but separate? I don't want to post Moyne's views on Turkey in 1913, or about the Irish situation in 1916-21, or his comment on Indonesia in the 1930s, or his view of Australians at Gallipoli, if someone with a 1940s focus is going to edit the whole lot out.Wikiman 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm about to post the early political stuff and am done. Nothing unusual except that he said in 1918 “Since the days of Mahomet no prophet has been listened to with more superstitious respect than has President Wilson” - which would be odd if he were an Arabist? It seems he was pro-Ataturk in the 1920s, and by 1922 the Turks and Arabs had split. He went from Beirut to (Trans)Jordan with Churchill in 1934, but to classical Petra, not to Amman.Wikiman 18:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Charges against Moyne

We have this sentence, which I will assume is an accurate report of what Bell writes:

"Bell writes that, according to Gurion, a former Irgunist, Moyne had also opposed the formation of a Jewish Army, refused to allow the Struma to land in Palestine, sent another ship (the Atlantic) to Mauritius, and had ordered the Patria there as well before it was blown up."

• "opposed the formation of a Jewish Army" - in Cohen, Retreat from the Mandate, we can find a detailed description of the argument within the British government about a Jewish Army, and we can see that in fact Moyne had a moderate position, neither a strong supporter like Churchill (who nearly always supported Weizmann's proposals) nor a strong opponent like Eden.
• "refused to allow the Struma to land in Palestine" - the Struma was incapable of landing in Palestine so this makes no literal sense. However Moyne was certainly involved in the decision making about the passengers on the Struma and some historians assign him a big share of the blame for the disaster.
• "sent another ship (the Atlantic) to Mauritius" - makes no sense since the Atlantic never went to Mauritius. More importantly for this article, the Atlantic affair occurred late in 1940 when Moyne was Joint Secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture and had nothing to do with the Middle East.
• "had ordered the Patria there as well before it was blown up" - this was also before Moyne had any Middle East responsibilities so he had nothing to do with it.

Of course Bell may be completely correct that "Gurion, a former Irgunist" made these claims, but why is it noteworthy that some non-famous person from an organization that was not involved in the assassination is able to get the dates all wrong? --McKay 02:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

this report of Bell is actually 100% accurate. As to the Atlantic, in Semptember 1940 3 ships went from Romania to Israel - Milos, Pacific and Atlantic. They were all caught by the British. In the end, the Atlantic refugees, around 1750, were boarded on another ship and sent to Mauritius where they spent the next 5 years. What the quote means is that he ordered the transport of the ship there, effectively the ship. Moyne's "responsibilities" had nothing to do with it. According to the reports, he intervened with the Turkish and demanded these ship sending away. If you have other WP:RS about other issues you can add them. Amoruso 12:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso, I just added a comment about Bell which you seem to have edited out. Wiki is all about differing opinions, fully referenced. I say include Bell, and consider his views with it. Healthy debate is better than editing, no?Wikiman 12:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly Moyne was in the Dept. of Agriculture when the Patria was blown up (by Haganah); Bell didn't look that up. I'm coming to think that Bell's interest in the IRA (6 books) and Israel included an anti-imperial-British POV. I hadn't thought to link Moyne's Irish interest before; he was anti-Sinn Fein, the party of the IRA. Bell was Irish-American, pro-IRA and seemingly of the 'MOPE' persuasion (most oppressed people ever). Struma; the Turks and a Russian torpedo share some of the blame? Brand was genuine; not the whole 437,000 Hungarians could be saved, but was that murder or neglect or harsh policy? That's all still very arguable. At the end of the day, Jews in the Middle East could join the British army to fight nazism any time after 1939 if they wanted to do something about it.Wikiman 12:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Amoruso, please explain how the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries had the power to deport people from Palestine. Alternatively, you can provide a source that explains it. All you gave so far is a report that some former Irgun member claimed it. That's not good enough. The internal records of the British government relating to the Atlantic/Patria affair have been examined at length by several historians who published their findings in easily-accessible places. Did they confirm your claim? --Zero 13:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The background to this is that Lehi did not kill Moyne just for his personal actions. He was killed as a representative of the British government. That's why Lehi cited events like Patria, which Moyne had nothing to do with personally, amongst their reasons. The distinction has been confused. Even Gerold Frank, who later wrote the book "The Deed" about the assassination, made the mistake of writing (first isssue of Commentary magazine in 1945) that Moyne was Colonial Secretary when the Patria was sunk; in fact the Colonial Secretary then was George Lloyd, 1st Baron Lloyd. We should try to use good modern sources and get the facts right. Erroneous claims from older sources are only of interest if the claims themselves were part of the story. --Zero 13:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

the sourced claim is that Moyne approached the Turkish personally on this. Being the anti-Jewish person that he allegdly was this makes sense. His current "job" is irrelevant. Amoruso 15:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You could well be right but we need more sources. Consider also Ida Rubenstein and tell us how antiJewish he must have felt during their long affair (the source is White Mischief, by Fox, 2nd edition; which was made into a film). Their Ritz Hotel suite floor all covered in lilies...very nice. Why would he spend time over the years with ultra-civilised Philip Sassoon if he had a constant problem with antisemitic urges? They enjoyed his company and neither of them needed to waste one second of their time with an antiJewish bore. Why didn't Weizmann, a leader of Zionism over decades, criticize him for being antizionist? All very peculierr. He had an affinity with the Turks in 1913-22, but lost interest after that. Anyway, I've also learnt a lot and thank you all very much.Wikiman 21:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What you're doing right now is WP:OR. His relationship with Jews really has very little to it. He was assassinated because he was conceived as anti Jewish from the point of view of people with the ideology with Lehi. Notice that I wrote "allegdly". You fail to notice that Weizmann has very little to do with it, since Weizmann was too perceived in the same way at the 1940's. This is exactly why Brand blames Weizmann as well, and why the Jewish leadership at the time had everything to do with Brand being detained. Brand was betrayed and deceived by the same people who made a pact with the British to begin with and who accepted the whole system beginning with the white paper in the name of helping the struggle against the Nazis. Lehi did not accept this way of thinking and for them this entire scope of thinking was anti Jewish. Moyne obstructed the landing of Struma, Patria and more, but Ben Gurion was guilty of even harsher events like the Altalena affair. They're all in the same "boat" so to speak. So yes, he wasn't anti Jewish to Weizmann but it's not something Weizmann should be proud of. What's important here is why he was assissnated and how he was perceived by those who assassinated him and to what means. We have WP:RS who cited this as reasons, and I think that's what we need. We also don't need to go in a quest for the truth or go in vendetta to vindicate Moyne as an angel - that's not part of what an encyclopedia is, it's about citing sources. Wassertein was quoted extensively and bell has a few relevant quotes too. I think that more sources are always welcome. This way is appropriate and will suffice. Amoruso 21:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

1. D. Wilson, Dark and Light (Weidenfeld 1998) p238.