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Talk:Same-sex marriage

Probably could use some uninvolved folks to evaluate the discussion occurring at SSM, before things escalate into a full on ANI crap show. TimothyJosephWood 22:21, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Considering how entrenched the positions seem to be, an "ANI crap show" might actually be the best solution here, assuming certain editors keep up their antics rather than continuing the DR process.74.70.146.1 (talk) 02:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood: There's quite a wall of text there. Are you up for summarizing the basics of the dispute you're referring to? — Rhododendrites \\ 18:07, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hey thanks for the ping. I guess I didn't watch the page. We hashed out a rewrite of the religious views section after an RfC overcame intransigence. The user then went off on a bit of a tangent, insisting that there are two distinct forms of same sex marriage: civil and religious, and this requires a significant rewrite of the section, or (in the case of three attempts made by the user), the section should be deleted until their standards are met.

This distinction seemed to make sense intuitively on some level, but repeated (I think seven or eight) requests for sources eventually ended up with them admitting there are none, and basically, everyone would accept their personal taxonomy if we just weren't so darned dumb.

Pages if IDHT later they've apparently resolved to do as they please (their words). Changes based on their personal preferences are apparently incoming. TimothyJosephWood 18:28, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The very first sentence of the article does say "Same-sex marriage, also known as gay marriage, is marriage between people of the same sex, either as a secular civil ceremony or in a religious setting." That does lend itself to drawing a distinction, but sources about specific positions would have to draw that distinction, too, to include in that context. More often than not the issue of "same-sex marriage" tends to assume a single concept that one is for/against. If someone wants to get into the details of positions of particular religions, we have entire articles about that. This shouldn't do anything other than summarize what those articles (or just religious views of same-sex marriage).

But all of this seems like it might be beside the point. If the problem is a single user edit warring and repeatedly inserting original research, ANI might be the better venue, but it looks like things have died down a bit in the last few days? — Rhododendrites \\ 19:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's a sporadic user. They don't operate in real time. They also don't seem to edit anything but this article, at least not lately, so it seems unlikely they've forgotten or moved on.

What's actually going on, is that the user wants the section deleted entirely. That's not an assumption of bad faith; they've argued for it repeatedly, and done it repeatedly. The lead refers to a difference in ceremony, which is plenty backed up by sources and common sense. This does not seem to be the distinction the user is pushing. TimothyJosephWood 19:20, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Rhododendrites, And there we go. TimothyJosephWood 12:16, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Jill Stein political positions

Article: Jill Stein#GMOs and pesticides

Sources: Green Party Platform, "Anti-science claims dog Green Party's Jill Stein," CNN

Which of the following phrasing is preferable:

1. Stein supports GMO labeling and a moratorium on new GMOs until they are proven safe, and would "phase out" GMO foods currently being grown, as well as the pesticides used on them.

2. Stein's official platform calls for a "a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe."...Stein later clarified that her moratorium proposal would apply to "new" GMOs until they are proven safe (though her official platform calling for "a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides" remains unchanged) and that the US should "phase out" GMO foods currently being grown.

I prefer the first, which states the position Stein says she supports. In my opinion, the second version wanders into OR by implying that Stein is misrepresenting her own platform or has revised it rather than merely clarifying it. We should not make that judgment, per "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources": "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Misplaced Pages, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation."

TFD (talk) 03:01, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I prefer the second phrasing. A compromise that fits all sources and avoids OR is to say:

• "Stein's official platform calls for "a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe" (cite: her platform + this Washington Post story). She later clarified that her proposal would entail a moratorium on "new" GMOs and that she would "phase out" GMO foods currently being grown (cite the CNN source)".

When candidates propose vague and contradictory policies, and later modify them while retaining some ambiguity, we should note both. Imagine if Clinton's official platform up until July 2016 stated that she "favored a $15 minimum wage" but later in an August 2016 interview she clarified that she only "favored a $15 minimum wage in select cities and regions". Wouldn't it be reasonable to phrase her position on the minimum wage as "Clinton's official platform calls for a $15 minimum wage. Clinton later clarified that she supported favored a $15 minimum wage in select cities and regions."? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:13, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

If external observers say that in reliable sources then we can report it, otherwise it is synthesis. "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.... If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here." Your conclusion is that Stein proposed "vague and contradictory policies," but that is specifically prohibited by policy. TFD (talk) 10:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

(i) The sources are not combined to imply a conclusion that is not mentioned by either of the sources (WaPo cites the platform, CNN cites her old claims and then her recent clarifications); (ii) I'm not proposing to say that she proposed "vague and contradictory policies." Please address the substance. I'm as clear as can be about what the third proposal is: "Stein's official platform calls for "a moratorium on GMOs and pesticides until they are proven safe" (cite: her platform + this Washington Post story). She later clarified that her proposal would entail a moratorium on "new" GMOs and that she would "phase out" GMO foods currently being grown (cite the CNN source)". Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

"When candidates propose vague and contradictory policies, and later modify them while retaining some ambiguity, we should note both....I'm not proposing to say that she proposed "vague and contradictory policies." Well you just said it. You want the article to imply that her positions are vague and contradictory, which is why you want to note that she "clarified her position." That is implied synthesis.

Correct me if I am wrong. You think that Stein's clarification is actually a change in her position. You think the article should, if not actually say that, at least present the two versions and let the reader decide. Certainly that is fair and informative. But that is not how policy says articles should be written. And while your judgment may be correct, the policy prevents the injection of incorrect judgments as well. For example, Clinton is reported to have said, "We're Going to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class". We could add that to her political positions to imply they are vague and contradictory. Fortunately we have reliable secondary sources that have addressed the apparent contradiction, something we lack in Stein's case.

TFD (talk) 20:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't see either phrasing being an OR problem, they both would be acceptable, however I prefer the first because it is more succinct. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Cross-step waltz history

Cross-step_waltz The history of the dance here is referenced only to primary sources (19th-early 20th century books). The whole article seems to be copied from the book co-authored by the original author of the article Link to google books This book seems to be self-published. I suppose that all the history section here is OR and should be removed or referenced as opinion of certain authors.

Is this a synth violation

There ia s policy contention here, which requires external third party review to clarify a point. The guidebook writes:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.

At Black Sunday, 1937, I introduced a source, and added a further source later on. The page deals with a moment in the Arab Revolt in Palestine, 1936-1939, when from autumn 1937 the Zionist group Irgun decided to adopt terrorist tactics, by ignoring the policy of restraint (havlagah) and killing civilians, a turning point in Zionism's history marked by that event and in its immediate aftermaths.

(A) source Benny Morris,Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1998, Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group, 2011 pp.145f

Now for the first time, massive bombs were placed in crowded Arab centers, and dozens of people were indiscriminately murdered and maimed, for the first time more or less matching the numbers of Jews murdered in the Arab pogroms and rioting of 1929 and 1936. This “innovation” soon found Arab imitators and became something of a “tradition”; during the coming decades Palestine’s (and, later, Israel’s) marketplaces, bus stations, movie theaters, and other public buildings became routine targets lending a particularly brutal flavour to the conflict.’

(B) source David Hirst, Beware of Small States: Lebanon, Battleground of the Middle East, Nation Books, 2010 p.34

the Arabs may have begun the violence, but they (Zionists) imitated and, with their much improved techniques, far outdid them. All of them – not just the ‘terrorist’ undergrounds, the Irgun and the Stern Gang of future prime ministers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, but the official, mainstream, Hagana – abandoned ‘self-restraint’, if they had ever really practiced it. A policy of indiscriminate ‘reprisals’ took its place. These, wrote the official historian of the Irgun, ‘did not aim at those who had perpetrated acts of violence against Jews, and had no geographic connection with the places where they had done so. The principal consideration in the choice of target was first accessibility, and then the (maximum) number of Arabs that could be hit.’ At the climax of their anti-Arab rampage, with bombs in market-places or mosques, grenades hurled into buses or the machine gunning of trains, they killed more Palestinians, 140, in the space of three weeks than the Palestinians had killed Jews in the year and a half since the Rebellion began, an achievement over which the Irgun’s National Bulletin openly exulted.’

I wrote from these 2 sources:

(C)One practice adopted by the Irgun in particular at the time, and subsequently by the Lehi gang, according to Benny Morris, introduced an innovation to the armed conflict: for the first time, grenades were thrown at, and powerful bombs were planted in, places like markets, mosques and bus stations where crowds of Arabs thronged in order to maximize the impact of indiscriminate killings. This technique formed a precedent, and was picked up soon after by Arabs. In the following decades, the method became a tradition in Palestine, and later in Israel. According to David Hirst, this approach resulted in the death of some 140 Palestinians in a three week period, a figure exceeding the total number of Jews killed in the one and a half years from the start of the Arab revolt. In July 1938 alone two such Irgun bombs planted in Haifa’s central market accounted for 74 Arab dead and 129 wounded, leading to a generalized cycle of reprisal between the two groups.

It is this that was denounced as WP:SYNTH. Both mention the Great Arab Revolt, both on these pages note the breaking of the 'restraint policy'; both deal with the aftermath set by this precedent. For those who see my introduction of Hirst as WP:SYNTH, the error would be that Morris mentions the specific date and incident marking the turn, whereas Hirst makes a general comment on the adoption of the terrorist tactic at that period and illustrates it with several instances that are elsewhere attested in the sources on Black Sunday already used, without challenge, on the page. I cannot see where I have joined Morris and Hirst to make a conclusion that is not in either source, which is what a WP:SYNTH specifically identifies as an abuse.Nishidani (talk) 08:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

It is not only clear WP:SYNTH (Hirst does not mention the event or the dates that are the topic of the article, but is talking in general about the Arab revolt), but source misrepresentation. Hirst says it was the Zionists who imitated the Arabs, you changed the meaning completely, and claimed it was the Arabs who imitated the Zionists. Epson Salts (talk) 13:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I've asked for external input. Your failure to grasp the distinction between 'imitate' and 'innovate' which are antonyms, not, as you think in your complaint, synonyms, means I' m not getting much sense there. See the talk page. If such basic errors are being made, evidently third opinions are requires, not a quarrel repeated here.Nishidani (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I understand the difference, your pompous condescending notwithstanding, but it doesn't look like you do.. The two soruces say opposite things with regards to who imitated who. Morris says the Zionists innovated and the Arabs later copied them, Hirst says the Zionists imitated the Arabs. These are two opposite things. If you don't understand that, then you lack the basic competence to edit Misplaced Pages. Epson Salts (talk) 00:30, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You are taking two sources, SYNTHesizing one sentence that is not supported directly by either, and attributing it to Morris. If you bothered to quote a sentence or two prior to where you started, you'd even see that Morris specifically says grenades were already used and doesn't include it in the "innovation" part, but after SYNTHing with Hirst it looks like Morris said it was. That's just one easy to see example. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

You asserted that on the talk page. I have given the primary texts (without included Gannon, and Caplan, which you don't object to), and my paraphrase. All neutral thirty parties need do is examine the 2 secondary sources, analyse what I did with them, and determine whether I ' reach(ed) or impl(ied) a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.' So let's leave it to the WP:SYNTH experts, rather than bury the sincere desire for clarification under a WP:TLDR wall of text repeating what is already on the talk page. Thanks.Nishidani (talk) 20:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

By all means. But you didn't bother to correctly describe the objection, so I did. Calling my two sentences of explanation a "TLDR wall of text" when it's not even 10% of what you posted is ridiculous. For future reference, there would have been less text for uninvolved editors to read if you just let my clarification sit there and didn't respond (telling me not to respond). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Well right off the bat there seems to be problems. The quote you've supplied from Morris doesn't mention anything about Irgun or the Lehi gang. It also doesn't mention anything about grenades. Also, Morris says dozens of people were indiscriminately murdered, but doesn't say the using of bombs was to maximize indiscriminate killing. Morris also doesn't say anything about precedent, which seems to be an extrapolation from the word "tradition". So already we have multiple violations of WP:Reliable, regardless of whether it's specifically synthesis. I understand that your source doesn't include the page prior to the quote you've used, but without a source that can verify that Morris was speaking about the Irgun or the Lehi gang, then these shouldn't be included. It's also clear you took the word "grenade" from Hirst and attributed it to Morris which is an example of synthesis. I also don't see where Hirst mentioned anything about a reprisal between the two groups. So there are multiple liberties that you've taken in writing this paragraph from these two sources...or at least from the quotes you've provided from these sources. A lot of work needs to be done and it's probably better to just quote directly from the source if you're having difficulty representing them accurately.Scoobydunk (talk) 02:09, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I combined two sources describing the same event, each supplementing the other (Morris doesn't mention grenades and mosques, Hirst does,etc.) I originally had the paragraph written with all 4 sources at the end, and only put Hirst sourced to grenade and mosque when I thought (apparently incorrectly), NMMGG wanted that done, forgetting to remove the attribution to Morris. The whole issue has since been fixed by a rewrite by another editor. We are obliged to paraphrase not to plagiarize, and 'precedent' means 'innovation' ('It is dangerous to make a precedent, an innovation'. John Pratt). NMMGG questioned Hirst, not the three other sources. The text above, which I wrote, was based on, other than Morris and Hurst, Gannon and Neil Caplan,who mentions a spiral of a spiral reprisal between the two groups, consequent on the events of Fall 1937. I can't see where drew a conclusion not in the sources, which is what, despite popular misprisions, the policy diagnoses as the problem of synthing.Nishidani (talk) 12:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You just got done lecturing us that you came here to get uninvolved expert input. now you got it, kindly stop arguing with the uninvolved experts. Epson Salts (talk) 13:41, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not concerned with issues other contributors might have had. I listed numerous problems with verifiability and synth. Precedent does not mean innovation. There are many innovations that don't set precedent for their industry, and using a quote from Pratt to try and justify Morris claiming "precedent" is another example of synthesizing. Paraphrasing does not allow you to include thoughts or text not supported by an individual source. This are the things I pointed out as problems and Misplaced Pages does not give editors an artistic license to combine sources to create your own narrative. No, sources must be neutrally and accurately represented and you have not done that with your "paraphrasing". You wanted an outside opinion, now you have one.Scoobydunk (talk) 13:44, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Scoobydunk: I have made another stab at the prose. Perhaps you can take a look at it and see if all SYNTH concerns are addressed?

One practice, adopted by the Irgun in particular, introduced an innovation to the armed conflict: the use of massive bombs in crowded areas, indiscriminately killing and maiming dozens of people.(cite Morris) The targets were chosen based on accessibility and so that the maximum number of Arabs could be hit.(cite Hirst) This technique was soon picked up by Arabs: in the following decades, the targeting of public buildings became a tradition in Palestine, and later in Israel.(cite Morris) According to David Hirst, this approach resulted in the death of some 140 Palestinians in a three week period, which is more than the number of Jews killed in the previous year and a half of the uprising.(cite Hirst) Morris states that the numbers of Arabs killed in these discriminate attacks matched the number of Jews killed by Arabs in the 1929 and 1936 uprisings.(cite Morris) In July 1938 alone two such Irgun bombs planted in Haifa’s central market accounted for 74 Arab dead and 129 wounded, leading to a generalized cycle of reprisal between the two groups.(cite Caplan)

The only assumption being made in the passage, as a whole, is that all sources (Morris, Hirst, Caplan) are talking about the same time period. This is easily checked from the sources, using the times and the descriptions. All the sentences in the passage are cited to single sources - no two sources are combined for any assertion.

I'll also quote the Caplan source, the part which I'm using:

In July 1938, two Irgun bombings killed 74 Arabs and wounded 129 in Haifa's main market, unleashing a cycle of reprisal attacks targeting Jewish and Arab civilians.

Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:00, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Querying databases

Lfstevens and I are having a friendly disagreement at Talk:PPACA about whether the following passage (about health insurance statistics) is original research:

Premiums were the same for everyone of a given age, regardless of preexisting conditions. Premiums were allowed to vary by enrollee age, but those for the oldest enrollees (age 45-64 average expenses $5,542) could only be three times as large as those for adults (18-24 $1,836).

References

1. "Medicare Expenditure Panel Survey". Agency for Healthcare Research Quality. 2009. Retrieved August, 2016. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help) (Retrieval steps: Click Start MEPSNet/HC. Select 2007. Click Variable Selection. Click Demographic variables. Select Age. Click Utilization, Expenditure and SOP Variables. Click All Types of Service. Select TOTEXP07. Click Descriptive statistics. Click Minimums, maximums, sums, means and mediums. For Variable, select TOTEXP07. Select Mean. In the left of the three dropdowns, select Age. Click Show statistics.)

My concern is that we're querying a primary source database of statistics whileapplying our own judgment to decide on what parameters to use, e.g. which year, which variables, etc, and then drawing conclusions from the results. Choosing different parameters would yield different results. Isn't this the essence of original research? Thoughts? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

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