Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SPUI (talk | contribs) at 03:46, 11 September 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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I have commented out the style guide box and put the shortcut template in for now, so teh shortcut still shows but this is not a style guide yet, and won't be unless it is widely accepted. I note a small revert struggle just happened, and I'd warn both parties to discuss here rather than revert again. Make the case that it should be a guide even when unaccepted, if you think you can. ++Lar: t/c 03:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny, wide acceptance wasn't necessary for principle I. But my intent here was never to call it a guideline but a proposed guideline - I see the proposed tag as modifying whatever's below it. --SPUI (T - C) 05:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This is indeed a slight issue with the "proposal" template. It might perhaps be cloned or parameterised so as to make explicit "proposed policy", "proposed guidelines", etc. Or as a brutal hack, subst: it, and edit the text down by hand. Alai 05:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, this is basically what CBD suggested. --SPUI (T - C) 05:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Diff? I don't see it in that link. He said a lot of things in there. I have no problem with this existing, and with it capturing the final result but it's proposed, not a style guide yet. putting it in the style guide category is disruptive and you should know better. Don't do it again. ++Lar: t/c 05:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Right at the top, in the numbered list. --SPUI (T - C) 05:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

and what is this : if you KNEW this was PROPOSED why on earth would you put it in the guide to centralised discussion??? Out it goes. Dont' add it again. ++Lar: t/c 05:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Centralized discussion is for proposals. Misplaced Pages:German de-adminship solution is marked as proposed but is clearly listed there. --SPUI (T - C) 05:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you arguing whether or not it is proposed or final? The difference between the two, is that the former indicates that the article (in this case) is being formed through a centralized idea based on a consensus, and the latter indicates that the article (in this case) has solid standing. The final version is not complete and will not be until the voting ends for all the parts. Therefore, it is still proposed, and since it is cut short and is incomplete, I can't even see how this can even be considered a done-deal. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 06:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I know this is proposed - I marked it as such. Lar removed it from {{cent}}, claiming that is not for proposals. --SPUI (T - C) 06:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflict. I hate edit conflicts. Get me a decent wiki-engine, this one is broken.) The criticism in this case seems to be one of "venue-shopping". I agree that it's addressing a technically different area of concern, but since the fur's still flying at the first poll, perhaps let things lie there for a while before going into high gear on the "damage limitation exercise". Alai 06:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, after edit conflicts half the time I just give up and don't post. I wish there was some way you could get an auto conflict resolver where when two people comment in different places the wiki automatically fixes it. But anyway... yeah let's let this one lie until Part 3 or so. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, and for example pmwiki for one thing does exactly this, without problems. (Ironically enough I run a pm-powered wiki that sees so little use that this is never an issue, and meanwhile people are tearing their hair out by the dozen over these things here....) Even semi-automated ("I've tried to fix your ec, this look OK to you? fix by hand if not") would be something. Alai 06:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is inevitable that we will have a page documenting how roads should be named, but generally I think it should wait until that has been fully worked out. And while I appreciate the irony in SPUI not parenthetically disambiguating, this page should probably follow the precedent of the other sub-pages of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions like Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books), Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (identity), and so forth. The title seems to imply more a 'manual of style' type guide than strictly a naming guide... which would also make sense if there are going to be significant issues beyond the names. If it's just how the names are linked to then I think that could probably be incorporated into a naming convention document. --CBD 07:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a manual of style-type page, not a naming convention, though I could see it merged into a naming convention. --SPUI (T - C) 07:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and it would probably be at Misplaced Pages:U.S. state highway naming conventions :P --SPUI (T - C) 07:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Would or should this page include every state's/territory's/district's decided convention (when part 2 is finished)? It would seem beneficial to compile all that here instead of all over Misplaced Pages at individual WikiProjects... if that wasn't the plan already. --TinMan 07:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it should, this page should be a guide to all of US state highway writing, and that's definitely a part of it. --Rory096 16:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

One thing that we need on this page is a good reason for our choice of principle 1 - something we can point people to when they ask why highways don't follow use common names and are not located at the place they are easiest to link to. I haven't seen one yet. --SPUI (T - C) 16:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that a significant number of people for some reason just can't stand parentheses in the title. The reason for choosing principle 1 is probably related to why we have city articles like Fukuoka, Fukuoka instead of Fukuoka (city). A lot of reasons are "for consistency" or "that's the current naming style" or "people might get confused if you don't include the containing place". --Polaron | Talk 16:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

We include the containing place in both examples here. It basically boils down to "parentheses are ugly" plus a few other lightweight arguments that have their match on the other side. --SPUI (T - C) 17:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. But the rigid format of Principle I was the one that was chosen. Let's try and make the most of it for now and work on the style guide and see how it goes. --Polaron | Talk 17:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Just adding that almost all the articles for US cities also do not conform to WP:NC(CN) because of the comma convention so naming conventions that don't conform to common names are not unusual. I think the only way for people to follow common names more is to elevate that to a policy. --Polaron | Talk 17:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

City, State is a pretty common name - kind of like State Route vs. Route in some states - Route is more common but State Route is still somewhat common. --SPUI (T - C) 17:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You might want to use the reasons listed at Misplaced Pages talk:State route naming conventions poll#Problems with Principle II. --Rory096 17:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

None of which are good reasons. "We" need something to convince people not to come back later and argue this again. Is there such a thing? I haven't seen it. --SPUI (T - C) 17:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that'd be something like "Everyone is agreed that this convention is imperfect, but after numerous contentious debates, it's been accepted as the best we can do." Powers 21:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't "we need a good reason to explain this and I haven't seen one" just another form of "I don't like this idea and I am going to resist it at every turn in every way I can?" I think "we decided to do it this way" is a good enough reason. Or alternatively "after a long and contentious struggle over what is ultimately a pointless question, in which certain elemeents resisted at every turn, we decided to do it this way since there was no other choice" might be the way to go. But do we want to expose our dirty laundry that much? ++Lar: t/c 21:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I knew this would happen; the people who didn't win are pissed and the people who won are bragging. <sarcasm>Isn't this fun?</sarcasm> Now as for the good reason... I don't care if you make a list or not; all I know is that I don't have time to go searching for every argument. Wouldn't a link to WP:SRNC suffice? --TinMan 06:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to be picky, we don't have to justify "why highways don't follow use common names", since we seem to have no idea at this point what the common names actually are, so this is only going to happen if the questioner comes armed with such evidence him/herself. (I certainly won't be voting for any "part two" options (SPUI-style or otherwise) unless there's actual evidence as to the common name.) City names in the US are a bad counterexample to NC(CN), because it appears to me to follow it perfectly well. Hoboken, New Jersey is, if not a "more complete name" as such, then at least a rather common reference to it. If someone can argue as much for "California State Route 12", or its various siblings, then (CN) is perfectly happy, and That Poll hasn't overridden it, it's merely exercised a systematic preference between its various clauses. Alai 01:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Too bad you can't "vote" for P2-type names. --SPUI (T - C) 04:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

<sarcasm> Yeah... too bad. </sarcasm>. As I said earlier, I would say "California State Route 12" so someone would know which state I was talking about... but I am an individual. Now if I could make a website and put that on there, then would I be credible? Or what about if I flew to California and added an extension to the sign? Heck, the California shields have "Califonria" written on them half the time; I just need to spray paint "State Route" under thate in small letters, right? Face it, nobody really knows what they're doing, but everyone thinks they do. Just make the best of it and quit with the attitude if you would please, all of ya. =) --TinMan 06:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Alai 22:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

POV in a style guide

This section:

"Note that most disambiguation is not done in the standard parenthetical manner; the only current exceptions are Kansas and Michigan. This is because of the state route naming conventions poll, which was seen as the resolution of a long-standing naming dispute. Despite the disputed lack of consensus by the traditional definition, with only 59% in favor of this style, enough people agreed to accept this rather than a continued standoff."

ought to be struck in mhy view (along with the footnote) as it's highly POV, presenting a rather biased and disruptive view of why this sorry mess exists in the first place. ++Lar: t/c 19:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree with this. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I tried to make it say "alleged lack of consensus" but was reverted. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The "parenthetical manner" is perhaps "usual" but not "standard", per ArbCom ruling, and violating it not unusual enough to require commentary. Powers 14:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There hasn't been much activity here

Hopefully that means people agree with this - since this is part of the naming conventions poll. Are there any objections, or should I upgrade it to a style guide once we get at least placeholder standards lists? --SPUI (T - C) 03:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)