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NPOV

The ideas which Lerner espouses are generally regarded as so outlandish by mainstream physicists that he is essentially ignored in that community.

Prove it.

-- Deleted it, it's completely unncessary in a discussion of his credentials (as the article now stands).

No actually its a perfectly necessary and relevant little tidbit when talking about (Personal attack removed) Lerner.--Deglr6328 21:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

gee, I thought there was some rule on wiki about personal attacks, but I gues thsi does not qualify , huh?Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I used Misplaced Pages:Remove personal attacks. Art LaPella 21:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. While it is true that in the previous (now removed) comment by me I did in fact refer to Eric Lerner, the subject of this page as "a fucking nutter", my comment expressed my opinion about this page's subject and NOT another editor on wikipedia. In fact Eric Lerner's first edit to wikipedia under the name Elerner would not occur until 4 days after I made the comment and therefore my comment did not in fact constitute a personal attack on another editor since he was not even present or editing Misplaced Pages at the time. I am fully aware of the personal attack rule on wiki and would not have made the comment if he had been present at the time of my post. --Deglr6328 01:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you think it would be ok to say on a talk page of an article about a living person that they are suspected of being involved in JFK's assasination? The talkpages are published and one should be careful with accusations, libel, and generally poisoning the atmosphere. Not to mention the idea that the subject of a biography can be expected to show up sooner or later. Civility is not about talking behind people's back then saying "sorry I didn't know you were listening". WAS 4.250 01:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in fact I do think it would be perfectly ok since talk pages are for expressing uncensored thoughts concerning the subject at hand and are not meant to be part of the actual article for precisely that reason. It also seems worth mentioning that the edit in question above was also made a month before the policy regarding "biographies of living persons" was instituted (apparently by yourself) which advocates removal of "unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons" from both the actual article AND the talk page (that last part being an absurdly draconian and unenforceable policy in my view). Anyway, I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth, who said I was sorry? The only reason I would not have used the terms I did on the 5th of Nov. '05 if I knew Lerner were present would be to NOT violate the no personal attack rule. Whatever, in any case I have no plans of continuing to edit this page anymore, there are plenty of other people watching it now who will prevent the usual whitewashing by Lerner et al. --Deglr6328 02:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No actually its a unnecessary and irrelevant little tidbit ... except to express a stance of hostility and intolerance ... and your comments "total f***ing nutter" exposes your POV (something that I hope you don't edit into articles). Sincerely, JDR 19:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think Lerner doesn't do himself any favors in the way he goes about things but I don't think he's a total nutter. His fusion technology is unproven, I know nothing about plasma so I'm not going to jump to conclusions (and that would be nonNPOV) so let's see what happens with that. Anyway you're probably calling him a nutter because of his BigBang views. I've noticed some people get very heated when the BigBang is questioned. I personally know cosmologists and they are quite open to discuss alternative models, so why Wikipedians and Slashdotters get so worked up is a mystery to me. Trious 00:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Most scientists are quite open ... it's the "fundementalist" that you have to worry about. Sincerely, JDR

Well, the hydrogen+boron combination is certainly a genuine fusion reaction, so in that respect Lerner is not a "total ****ing nutter". Neither is the 1 billion+ degree temperature achieved using DPF a mirage. As for his ideas about field confinement, well we will have to leave that to the plasma physicists to sort out. Suffice to say I am not about to condemn a bloke who is trying to bring about cheap, plentiful and environmentally-friendly energy for all.User: Anonym

http://photoman.bizland.com/lpp/eric_j_lerner.htm

President, Lawrenceville Plasma Physics,Inc. advanced technology research, consulting and communications firm.

Scientific research in plasma physics and desalination

Development of fusion energy and x-ray sources based on the dense plasma focus Originated plasma-based theories of quasars, large-scale structure and other phenomena of the Universe Author of "The Big Bang Never Happened" Development of Atomizing Desalination Process Writing and editing on high technology

Over 600 articles published

RESEARCH

1995-Present

Designed experiment to test hypothesis that Dense Plasma Focus could achieve temperatures needed for proton-boron fusion. Developed theoretical model, designed electrodes, designed diagnostic equipment, including x-ray detector and filters, Rogowski coil. Actively participated in experiment including selection of experimental parameters, construction of heating apparatus for decaborane functioning. Analyzed resulting data. Demonstrated achievement of 200keV energies. Developed theory of magnetic effects that show feasibility of proton-boron fusion. Work to develop intense x-ray source for infrastructure inspection. Continued development of plasma cosmology theories.

1992-1995

Designed experiment to test theory of heating in DPF. Designed electrodes, experimental plan, participated in carrying out experiment, analyzed data.

1986- 1991

Developed an original theory of quasars based on extrapolation from laboratory-scale plasma instabilities in the dense plasma focus. Developed detailed theory of function of DPF. Proposed a theory of the origin of the large scale structure of the universe, also from plasma instability theory and the role of force free fila­ments. This theory led to the prediction of supercluster complexes, shortly before their discovery by R. Brent Tully. Developed an original theory of the microwave background and the origin of light elements, accounting for both without need for a Big Bang. The microwave theory led to the prediction that there is absorp­tion of RF radia­tion by the intergalactic medium, a prediction confirmed by observation in 1990.

BOOK

The Big Bang Never Happened, Random House/Times Books, 1991.

ORIGINAL SCIENTIFIC PAPERS

Two World Systems Revisited: A Comparison of Plasma Cosmology and the Big Bang(to be published in IEEE Trans. On Plasma Sci.)

Prospects for p11B fusion with the Dense Plasma Focus : New Results (To be published in the Proceedings of the Fifth Symposium on Current Trends in International Fusion Research), 2002

Lerner, E.J., Peratt, A.L., Final Report, Jet Propulsion Laboratory contract 959962, 1995 (1995). "Intergalactic Radio Absorption and the COBE Data", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995, p.61-81 "On the Problem of Big Bang Nucleosynthesis", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995 p.145-149 "The Case Against the Big Bang" in Progress in New Cosmologies, Halton C. Arp et al, eds., Plenum Press (New York), 1993

"Confirmation of Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol 207,1993 p.17-26.

"Force-Free Magnetic Filaments and the Cosmic Background Radiation", IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol.20, no. 6, Dec. 1992, pp. 935-938.

"Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium," The Astro­physical Journal, Vol. 361, Sept. 20, 1990, pp. 63-68.

"Prediction of the Submillimeter Spectrum of the Cosmic Back­ground Radiation by a Plasma Model," IEEE Trans­actions on Plasma Science, Vol. 18, No. 1, Feb. 1990, pp. 43-48.

"Galactic Model of Element Formation," IEEE Transac­tions on Plasma Science, Vol. 17, No. 3, April 1989, pp. 259-263.

"Plasma Model of the Microwave Background," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 6, (1988), pp. 456-469.

"Magnetic Vortex Filaments, Universal Invariants and the Fundamental Constants," IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Special Issue on Cosmic Plasma, Vol. PS-14, No. 6, Dec. 1986, pp. 690-702.

"Magnetic Self-Compression in Laboratory Plasma, Quasars and Radio Galaxies," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 4, Pt. 2, (1986), pp. 193-222.

PATENT

Atomizing Desalination Process (US. Pat 5,207,928)

AWARDS

Aviation Space Writers Association 1993 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Trade Magazines/Space for "GOES NEXT Goes Astray" Aerospace America, May 1992.

Society for Technical Communication 1992 Award of Distinction: "Technology is Teaming", Bellcore Insight, Summer, 1991.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Special Interest/Trade Magazine Category for "Lessons of Flight 665," Aero­space America, April, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Galileo's Tortuous Journey to Jupiter," Aerospace America, August, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1988 National Journalism Award: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "FAA: An Agency Besieged", Aerospace America, February-April, 1987.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1985 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "SDI Series", Aerospace America, August-November, 1985.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1984 Journalism Award Northeast Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Mushrooming Vulnerability to EMP", Aerospace America, August 1984.

PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

IEEE, the American Physical Society and American Astronomical Society.

Basic biographical information

What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? Where is he currently employed? --Art Carlson 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? ... Appeal to academia, tsk tsk .... to wit, I ask ... what academic degree before does Heaviside hold (before 1890s that is ...)? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs had Heaviside held full-time academic employment? ... this is plainly an attempt to take a snipe at Lerner.

Where is he currently employed? Read the bio link ... appearantly you didn't ....

Sincerely, JDR 22:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying that he doesn't have any academic degree, from any university, and has never worked for any university? You seem to think that that is a point in his favor. Shouldn't we report that then? --Art Carlson 22:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you miss the point ... not only those individuals who have engaged in scholarship are deemed to have anything worthwhile to say, or do.

He may have an academic degree, from a university, and may have worked for a university ... but IF he didn't, that doesn't mean his research is any less valuable.

Get a reference Art and then report it.

Sincerely, JDR 15:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Reddi added that he didn't get a degree, not having done the course work. That was completely unsourced, and its really not clear how it could be sourced (pers comm?). Please indicate source if you want it re-entered. Its not in his biog, that I can see. I added some stuff from his biog.

As for "leading" critic of the big bang... I doubt this. Certainly not supported by his publication record, which is slight. William M. Connolley 18:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC).

How much of this is real?

Lawrenceville Plasma Physics
and
Focus Fusion Society
11 Calvin Terrace
West Orange, NJ 07052

is located in a residential district on the border of West Orange and Montclair, at the foot of Eagle Rock Reservation. Ten years ago, I walked all around that area. The adress is probably someone's residence. At best, an office. Do these companies exixt only on paper? With no actual current funding aren't they just venture-funding-bait? Shouldn't this article be deleted? Or at least remove what can't be verified as more than just what people are saying about themselves? The more I look into this , the more the whole thing looks fishy. WAS 4.250 19:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Sterling D. Allan appears to be promoting him. Google and see what I mean. Maybe this does deserve to be an article ... but a quite different one. WAS 4.250 19:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As near as I can tell everything personal we have is what he, his "companies", and Allan say about him and his "companies". How much is verifyable? Are these considered useable sources? If so why? WAS 4.250 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My, I do seem to get some people upset. Art Carslon, in particular, seems to have nothing better to do with his time than follow me from Wiki page to Wiki page--see "aneutronic fusion" and "plasma cosmology" and I am sure there must be others. I seem to be an obsession of his. Hate to toot my own horn, but I do need to correct those who say no one takes my work seriously. Generally, invitations to present your work at prestigious institutions, getting it reported in the scientific press, etc. is considered evidence that the work is taken seriously. (not of course that it is correct.)Elerner 03:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop editing your own page using IP sock puppets.--Deglr6328 05:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What an ego! I'm a professional plasma physicist who worked for many years in fusion and now works in cosmology. Where should I feel more at home than editing these articles, as I have been doing long before Eric Lerner showed up? Who's following whom around? --Art Carlson 08:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to continue with Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elerner. Include the new problems and make the page active on the list of current User-RfCs. --ScienceApologist 16:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Deglr6328,

• Changing Eric's status from "plasma physicist" and "plasma cosmologist" to "associated with plasma physics and plasma cosmology", is somewhat insulting. As a peer-reviewed author of nearly 50 articles, on subjects from cosmology to plasma phsysics, it is pretty clear, and verifiable that he is more than "associated" with the subjects. Alfvén trained as an engineer, but won the Nobel Prize for (plasma) physics... I guess he was just associated with plasma physic too?
• And as for designating his theories as "pseudoscience", I'm sure you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation... that's one of the factors that distinguishes science from pseudoscience --Iantresman 20:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not terribly concerned with how "insulting" it may seem not to refer to him directly as a physicist. The terms physicist and scientist are used most aptly (and frequently) by people to describe themselves when they actually have a PhD. i don't quite know what you're rambling on about with regard to pseudoscience and citations either. Lerner's plasma cosmology/anti-big bang/focus fusion theories are widely regarded as pseudoscientific. end of story. there is no real debate among scientists regarding those subjects.--Deglr6328 20:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Since when is a Ph.D a requirement for scientist status? This is elitist garbage. The Wiki article on "Scientist" doesn't mention Ph.D. once.
• If there is no debate regarding Lerner's work as pseudoscience, then you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation. Otherwise it is hearsay. --Iantresman 23:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with you debating whether or not plasma cosmology and wacky big bang denialism constitute pseudoscience.--Deglr6328 05:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not asking you to debate it, as I am sure neither one of us cares what the other one has to say. I'm asking you to substantiate YOUR statement that Lerner's material is pseudoscience, which should be easy to provide a verifiable citation if you are right.
• Deglr6328, there is no doubt that Lerner's theories are not accepted by the vast majority of scientists. I doubt whether the vast majority of scientists have even read it. Of those scientists that have read it, very few (if any) have submitted their criticisms to peer-review. None of this implies that Lerner's work is pseudoscience. Just like the Big Bang, Lerner's work may turn out to be wrong. Again, this means that the scientific method has done its job, but it does not imply pseudoscience. --Iantresman 09:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

How difficult is this for you to understand? incredibly, apparently. The sentance "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." does NOT state "lerner's theories are pseudoscience" it DOES state that the vast majority of scientists think this is the case however. There is a difference and the completely factual note will stay. --Deglr6328 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to sign in, sorry--I made the last edit to the page.

Deglr, whoever you are, it is purely your personal, unsourced, opinion that "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." It is that opinion of your that keeps getting deleted, as do the phrases and words that imply that various criticisms are fact. Just curious, but if what you said was true, how do you think I would get my stuff published in peer-reviewed journals, get invited to give presentations at various conferences and research instituions and get funded by various governments?Elerner 02:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentance refers to your preoccupation with theories such as plasma coslmology and anti-big bang fringe theories. It is not my opinion alone that these theories are pseudoscientific. That is a widely held belief among scientists and it is a statement which needs to be in the article. --Deglr6328 07:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth". So in talking about what should be in the article we should focus on what we can verify through reliable sources. But that aside, I honestly don't believe you. I agree that the mainstream community, largely, rejects Lerner's theory, and that some have criticized points in it. Generally speaking, scientists have not built on his work. However, the term "pseudoscience" is a lot more critical of the work than this. A real example of pseudoscience is creation science: that is, pretending that creationism is based on science rather than religion. For instance, I don't think Edward Wright thinks Lerner's work is pseudoscience (that is, that it's a disingenuous attempt at science), rather, he just thinks it's wrong. From Wright's tone, I get the feeling he thinks Lerner isn't a very good scientist and that his theories aren't good science, but "pseudoscience" goes a lot farther than that. And in any case, he's just one guy. Mangojuice 13:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I should probably steer clear of this subject, but .... I tend to agree with Mango. I think it is important to characterize the degree of Lerner's acceptance in the scientific community, but that is very hard to do in an objective way. I also think the term "pseudoscience" is so vague as to be practically useless and also practically impossible to define objectively. I'm not sure there is a clear difference between bad science and pseudoscience, but if forced to choose, I would call Lerner's work simply bad science. Can't we quote a few judgements from prominent (mainstream) scientists and leave it at that? --Art Carlson 14:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• As I suggested before, however we characterise Lerner's work, (a) it should be verifiable (b) attributable (c) should not infer this is the voice of "the scientific community".
• I can find published and peer reviewed criticism of, for example, the Big Bang without any problems. So if "the scientific community" are equally critical of Lerner's work, it shouldn't be too difficult to find peer reviewed criticism. --Iantresman 14:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Unsubstantiated/controversial comments require citations. If you can find reliable citable/notable sources that have been published saying "We think Lerner's work is pseudoscience, and we represent the whole or most of the science community" that is perfectly fine for inclusion. But an unsubstantiated claim that "XXYY believes LErner is engaging in pseudoscience" is hearsay sicne it's NOT backed up by anything but someone's opinion. I suggest that someone tag the statement, if it's recurrent, with the 'Fact' tag. If citatations aren't provided, revert it out, or otherwise remove it. Problem solved, yeah? This is how Misplaced Pages is SUPPOSED to operate. To some degree, controversial statements are subject to the "verify or die" clause. If it's NOT notable and it IS controversial, it shouldn't be included. As I've been foirced to improve my works lately, so should anyone else making unverified claims. Best way to do that is with 'fact' tags or some other way of marking it up and then either adding notable sources to back it or deleting it. See, "I learns gud!" (/end self-deprecating humor) Mgmirkin 00:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the template at the top of this page to "Biographies of living persons" which is a Misplaced Pages policy page, which reminds us that "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; .. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question" --Iantresman 17:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, I've never seen such bias in my life, your edits disgust me, and you have sunk to a new low. How can you remove verifiable quotes to publications such as the Chicago Tribune, while retaining criticism such as Wright's that has never appeared any publication whatsoever, and then have the audacity to remove the link to Lerner's own rebuttal. DIGUSTING. --Iantresman 18:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Chicago Tribune? What gives the Chicago tribune any weight in evaluating what anyone says about cosmology? Ned Wright is a respected astronomer whose website stands along with Gene Smith's as one of the most trusted and oldest web-based sources of cosmology information available. Just because something appears in print doesn't make it better. Evaulating sources themselves is important. Ned Wright is a notable figure in astronomy and cosmology. The Chicago Tribune is not. Rebuttals don't belong in a criticism section. If Lerner can stand up for himself, then report on it in the section that describes Lerner's work. --ScienceApologist 18:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

HYPOCRITIC. That's rich coming from someone using a creationist Web sites as source. And when will you learn the definition of POV pushing. Presenting points of view neutrally is not POV pushing. --Iantresman 18:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

For that matter what give YOU any authority in evaluting (a) anything on cosmologu (b) anything that the Chicago Tribune has to say. YOU are unverifiable. The Chicago Tribune stands on its reputation, and is verifiable. --Iantresman 18:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Careful, Ian. You're bordering on personal attacks. Take a breather. We're all editors here trying our best to make editorial decisions. --ScienceApologist 18:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Then learn the definition of POV pushing; removing ALL the positive criticism while leaving just the negative criticism is POV pushing, not providing a BALANCE of VERIFIABLE views. --Iantresman 19:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have restored ScienceApologist's HYPOCRTICAL removal of the link to Lerner's reply to Wright. If Wright's Web page is a good enough source (despite it not being peer reviewed) then so is Lerner's reply, and your one-sided editing still DISGUSTS me. --Iantresman 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I consider what you are doing to be POV pushing which "refers to the act (or attempt or intent) to evade, circumvent and undermine Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy". --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lerner's response is included with the Wright criticism. --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hypocritic! Demoting Lerner's repsonse to the small print in a footnote is not EQUALITY. Your bias is unbelievable. --Iantresman 19:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the Chicago Tribune quote, they're more notable and veriable than ScienceApologist. --Iantresman 19:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've restored Lerner's status a plasma cosmologist, not "an advocate of plasma cosmology". You might as well have made him "an advocate of plasma physics". --Iantresman 19:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

We've had this argument before Ian. Plasma cosmologist is a neologism. Period. --ScienceApologist 20:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I restored the comment on Stenger's critism to put it into context. It is all verifiable, and you can provide any example to show that it is incorrect. But to give the impression that Stenger's critism's are conclusive is BIAS in the extreme --Iantresman 19:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can understand Lerner not wanting his theories to be labeled as pseudoscience (obviously) and the concern Mango and Art voice about the word pseudoscience perhaps being too harsh is valid. However, its alternatives, which are equally true, that is that his theories are simply bad/wrong/crazy are even more intrinsically biased and thus I did not use those. I feel what is hampering progress here is Ian's insistance on using peer-reviewed statements to corroborate the statement here that Lerner's theories are considered wrong/bad/pseudoscience. This is an absurd and disingenuous requirement because Ian knows damn well that no one will ever find such peer reviewed statements. Is this because scientists have no disagreement with Lerner's theories as Ian apparently presupposes must be the case? No. In fact it is the exact opposite which is true. Lerner's theories are considered so nutty and out of the mainstream that no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense and submitting it for a peer-review. One quick look at his citation record shows that his papers are barely ever cited by others and when they are the majority of the time they are SELF-citations! The fact that mainstream scientists overwhlemingly believe Lerner's theories to be utterly worthless is not going to be found in any peer reviewed paper but can be found in several (some of which are already noted here) other non-peer reviewed verifiable statements. The reader of this article NEEDS to know how far out and disreputable Lerner's theories really are (widely) considered to be. --Deglr6328 19:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, and people need to be able to VERIFY what you suggest. From what I recall, one of the criticisms of pseudoscience is that results are not submitted to peer review. Lerner's done that, showing it is of sufficient standard to publish.
• I also recall that HUNDREDS of scientists and engineers are critical of the Big Bang, (that's VERIFIABLE in a reputable publication), so presumably you'd insist that readers should know?
• I also checked your statement that "no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense" which just goes to show that either you are wrong or Ned Wright is not legit? --Iantresman 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice try but I'm not getting dragged into that side debate with you. I know, I know, I need to EXPLICITLY spell things out for you lest you take and twist them around to some NEW absurdity; so the sentance should read, "what scientist would want to waste his time refuting such nonsense and taking the time and effort to submit it for peer review". The fact that you even think peer review would ever be used in such a way seems to betray a deep misunderstanding of how the process actually works. Most of the time, obviously wrong papers rife with bad science written by nobodies in a disreputable field are simply ignored. As such they probably should be.--Deglr6328 20:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• If you don't submit to peer review, it's pseudoscience. If you do, and it gets in, we won't bother to reply. And that's the scientific method? --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I see that ScienceApologist has now resorted to providing critical quotes from personal Blogs. Is that better than quoting from book reviews on Creationist Web sites?
• I am surprised that Lerner manages to get ANY work at all, and gets past so many peers with his articles. --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

That blog is written by an accredited physicist. That his ideas are expressed in blog venue is irrelevant.--Deglr6328 20:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist remove one of my citations just two days ago because it was not peer reviewed despite being written by accredited scientists, and has reminded me that as far as he is concerned, "Peer review != notability". But blogs are fine! Looks liked there is one standard for you guys, and another standard for the rest of us. --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lerner doesn't get much academic work. He spends a lot of his time self-aggrandizing and trying to drum up private donations. His anti-establishment message does gain some traction with a certain set of idealogues, but you won't find him doing controversial things where it will get him into trouble. He won't, for example, present his plasma cosmology ideas at AAS nor does he try to drum up support for his fusion flights-of-fancy at IEEE meetings. That's just sort of his way, you see. --ScienceApologist 20:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

1991 and 1992? Really au courant of you, Ian. --ScienceApologist 21:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Joshua--you're back from vacation! Or is this just another assignment from your graduate advisor? You evidently don't read the page you are editing, which contains my conferences in the past five years: the IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science, 2002: the American Physical Society, 2003 and the XI Latin American Workshop on Plasma Physics, 2005. Lerner was an invited speaker at both the Fifth (2003) and Sixth (2005) Symposia on Current Trends in International Fusion Research, which is sponsored by the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). And of course there are my seminars on plasma cosmology during that same period at University of Pavia, Goddard Space Flight Center and European Southern Observatory. Also, I notice you are diligently gathering critiques of my book from scientists in the field. But on the plasma cosmology page, you insist that my work is ignored by scientists in the field. Which is it? Or does the truth not matter that much?Elerner 23:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've put in a request for Page Protection. And would suggest no further editing until we talk through our differences. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
• And I will be away until Monday. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Mangojuice mediation?

Mangojuice, I wonder whether you'd help us mediate this article. Unfortunately I'm away until Monday, but I'm sure Eric can hold his own until then. I would like to see some kind advice on what is considered a suitable source, peer reivew, newspapers, magazines, blogs? And advice on how to word certain phrases neutrally. --Iantresman 00:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's see, Joshua (science apologist) sees fit to remove nearly all the favorable comments on my book, even those from James van Allen, who might perhaps be considered an expert. Very neutral!Elerner 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Joshua is still reverting without justification. He is also is eliminating the fact that I was a visiting astronomer at ESO--this really seems to need censoring, huh, Joshua? Do you really think I would have been there without getting invited by the invitation committee? Why don't you do some actual work rather than trying to cover up mine? Oh right, I forgot, this is your class assignment.Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm back from my short trip away, and would like to resolve the following issues:

1. Lerner's status as a plasma physicist and plasma cosmologist
2. Lerner was a "visiting astronomer", or was just "invited" to the European Southern Observatory in Chile
3. Selection of critical reviews: what sources are suitable? Chicago Tribune? Personal blogs?
4. Selection of critical quotes: positive and negative?
5. Comments on critical quotes?
6. The view on Lerner's work? Pseudoscience? Wholly rejected? By whom? Verifiability?
7. Removal of Lerner's awards and article contributions,
8. Use of general critical statements,
9. Moving of Lerner's reply to Wright, to footnotes.

--Iantresman 10:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, I think something that might help here is if we could get away from the current style of presenting quotes on BBNH. It's not informative, and it will never present the reception of the book in an appropriate light. On the quotes themselves, I think we can draw the conclusion that there was significant criticism of the book and its theories. I think we can draw the conclusion that the book was well-received by the lay community (cf the Chicago Tribune and the Sapp quote). I believe it's fair to state that Lerner has attempted to respond to any detailed criticism. Beyond that, I don't think there's much we can say. Mangojuice 14:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

(I numbered the points for ease of reference.) One approach is to identify quotes from sources that are considered useable as sources at wikipedia for the issues you just raised. Once it is agreed what the basis for the article is, the rest falls into place so much easier. Perhaps we could take point number one above, and work on it as a test case. Whatever works well for point number one can then be repeated for the following points. WAS 4.250 15:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The only reliable source is a verifiable, reliable citation. I've already noted that:

• Lerner is described as a "plasma physicist" by Amazon Editorial Reviews, twice,
• He is described as a "plasma cosmologist" (A) by H. Ratcliffe, in "The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference"PDF, (B) In a Randall Meyers film, (C) In a book by Rem B. Edwards, "What Caused the Big Bang?"

But I think this boils down to, what constiutes a verifiable, reliable source? --Iantresman 16:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Can I just point out that those two don't contradict each other? Surely, a "plasma cosmologist" is a subtype of "plasma physicist". Mangojuice 16:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, though "cosmologist" also denotes something to do with astronomy which "physicist" does not necessarily? --Iantresman 13:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to write this main article for average readers and put all the hair-splitting details in footnotes. For example, if I could edit the article, the first footnote would now read:

Lerner is described as a "plasma physicist" by Amazon Editorial Reviews, twice, He is described as a "plasma cosmologist" by H. Ratcliffe, in "The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference"PDF, in a Randall Meyers film, and in a book by Rem B. Edwards, "What Caused the Big Bang?"

And other editors could add sourced meaningful hair splitting to the footnote. Sources descibing him as a poor physicist or his theories as psuedoscience need to be in the article and not just footnotes, but being a poor fisherman or whatever doesn't mean you are not one. WAS 4.250 16:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Isn't this how the article is written now? It begins "Eric J. Lerner is a plasma physicist" and there is a footnote with more information.
• Are there any sources describing Lerner as a "poor physicist", and if so, do we base this on the sole judgement of an author?
• Are there any source describing any of Lerner's work as psuedoscience? --Iantresman 13:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

IBM says "Eric Lerner is a freelance science writer based in Lawrenceville, New Jersey." WAS 4.250 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he does appear to have many strings to his bow.

--Iantresman 18:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Let us be positive about the "many strings to his bow". The reader can draw their own conclusions when faced with his actual contributions and the response (or lack there-of). It is Misplaced Pages policy that we do not "spoon-feed" the reader. WAS 4.250 22:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

So are you suggesting that we do, or do not describe Lerner as a (a) plasma physicist (b) plasma cosmologist (c) science writer, and what do you base your answer on? --Iantresman 23:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest only that we present the evidence and let the reader decide. My preference is to give the readers quotes and sources but most wikipedians feel we must summarize the quotes. Screw the majority. WAS 4.250 01:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Amazon Editorial Reviews are necessarily the authorities on who is or is not a plasma physicist. I note that most American plasma physicists are members of the Division of Plasma Physics of the American Physical Society, whereas Eric Lerner is not even a member of the APS. Should we conclude that "physicist" is not an accurate description? I don't know, but you are going to have difficulties solving this one in a verifiable way. --Art Carlson 11:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This whole dispute seems really silly to me. If this were Albert Einstein, we could argue about whether to call Einstein a "scientist" or a "physicist", and we'd be able to pull up sources supporting either one, but in the end, both choices are perfectly okay. I say we stick with the first sentence we have. WP:NPOV does say "Let the facts speak for themselves" but this can't apply to the label we put on Lerner. Mangojuice 13:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I agree that the dispute is actually quite juvenile. I don't think there is any "official" confirmation of whether someone is a physicist or not, and formal education does not necessarily confer scientific status. What we do know, is that Lerner is President of a company that does research into plasma physics, and he has also published papers on plasma cosmology in the peer reviewed journal Transactions on Plasma Science.
• I don't know any other person on Misplaced Pages whose status is questioned in this way. But as far as I'm converned, if he's a in a job that pays him to do physics, then he's a physicist, and if he's published in peer reviewed journals on plasma cosmologist, then he's a plasma cosmologist. His qualifications are a separate issue. --Iantresman 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

WAS 4.250, can you point me to the policy page regarding not "spoon feeding" the reader, it sounds like a useful guides that I've missed. --Iantresman 17:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked for that too. What I found was Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves... but that really doesn't mean what WAS said it means. On the contrary, WP:1SP advocates "summary style" or "newspaper style" both of which sum up details for the reader's convenience. Mangojuice 18:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

See User:Kizzle/Spoon Feeding for what spoon feeding is and ] for what happened to that version and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves for the policy concerning it. When I said "It is Misplaced Pages policy that we do not "spoon-feed" the reader." I was refering to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves. It is standard to (as you say) use "summary style" or "newspaper style" both of which sum up details for the reader's convenience. But sometimes what is a proper summary is disputed. In those cases sometimes it helps to just present the evidence and let the reader make their own conclusion. Where there is no dispute, summarizing is good. WAS 4.250 18:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. What you're saying is quite appropriate for the whole "pseudoscience" discussion, but really quite impossible for the label (plasma physicist vs. plasma cosmologist) issue. In the lead, you simply have to sum things up; you need to give the context quickly and simply first before getting into it. BTW, Lerner is a member of the APS according to his resume . Mangojuice 18:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Which is why I suggested puting "all the hair-splitting details in footnotes". Someone reads he is a plasma physicist and if they think "says who" they can go to the footnote where all the sources and details that are relevant to making that judgement call are. It's not clear to me that I'm disagreeing with anyone. WAS 4.250 19:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think that is what we have now. There is more than enough evidence to support that he is a plasma physicst, with footnotes perhaps to APS membership, works in plasma physics, publishes in plasma physics journals.
• Whether he is an "advocate of plasma cosmology" or a "plasma cosmologist", I can see no difference. --Iantresman 19:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Moving on

I suggest we move on to the real meat of the disagreement, which is how to cover the response to Lerner's work. I for one am very much against quoting many different sources as the article does now; it makes it unreadable, and we could go on forever finding more and more quotes and it would be very hard to ever agree we'd reached a fair representation of the spectrum of opinions. We should try to find some statements we agree are supported by the criticisms. Thoughts? Mangojuice 19:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the quotes. Do we just says that "Lerner's book has received a number of mixed criticism ", on the grounds that this is a biography, not a criticism of his theories? Certainly half a dozen critics does not reprsent the entire "mainstream community", nor do any of them suggest pseudoscience, and nor do they criticise ALL of his work --Iantresman 19:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we can read into it a little more carefully than that. The positive reviews tend to be from laypeople, or at best laud the attempt to consider alternate theories. The negative reviews have a lot of specific scientific criticisms; most expert reviews are of this form. Mangojuice 20:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure?

• I don't know the credentials of Gregg Sapp (Science Library Head), nor the author of the Chicago Tribune's piece. The citations to The Big Bang Never Happened are neutral, in that they are not critical.
• So I don't think it is as clear-cut as suggested. I would guess that if you ask most mainstream astrophysicists about Lerner's book, they will not be too positive; I would also guess that most of them haven't read it. I would guess that if ask many of the plasma physicists, they will not be negative about the book, and again, I suspect that many of them haven't read it.
• The point of all this, is what can we say about Lerner's book that is also verifiable? I am sure that Lerner will also acknowledge that the book has received criticisms. Many scientists also share Lerner's cynicism of the Big Bang, and I would guess are not negative of his book. --Iantresman 22:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• A scientific critique of the book itself is not important anyway. It is for lay people and is thus going to be incorrect, just as QED (Richard Feynman) is inaccurate. I wouldn't even expect to see a critique of the writing style of a book in an encyclopaedic article on the book's author, let alone a critique of the models and theories that it explains - a statement of the writing style should also be relegated to an article on the book itself. There seems to be far too much of a religious influence on the editting and discussion of this article with all sides being desperate (to the point of ridicule - from the PoV of an onlooker) to convince all readers that their personal belief is the one true way - Tristan Wibberley 20:13, 6 August 2006

Pretty much what I suggest on 26 July 2006, above. This is a biogaphy, not a critique of Lerner's theories, which are discussed elsewhere. --Iantresman 19:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

"Science Library Head" implies the man is a librarian, not a physicist, and there's no reason to think the Chicago Tribune piece is written by an expert; it's a popular book, and that's a book review. The three "positives" you have under peer-reviewed publications don't seem to be papers about Lerner's book, but rather simply other papers about plasma cosmology. The Whitney one (the only one I could actually read the text of) barely makes mention of Lerner's book; the context is "The big bang theory is not without doubts (Lerner, 1992);" hardly a "reaction", but in any case as was in the article at one point, lack of peer-reviewed _criticism_ is more likely due to the book never having been taken seriously outside of the plasma physics community. I think a reasonably fair treatment, and one backed up by the reviews we have, is "Lerner's book, while well-received by the general public, has received little attention from scientists outside of the plasma physics community." We could go on to mention Van Allen's opinion (it's a notable exception). We can mention that there has been non-reviewed informal criticism, and responses from Lerner. In terms of whether the lack of peer-reviewed criticism implies a positive or negative reception, I think we should let the facts speak for themselves. Do we know of any peer reviewed papers outside of plasma cosmology/plasma physics that even cite Lerner's book? Mangojuice 01:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Lerner's articles have appeared in peer-reviewed non-plasma physics journals such as : Astrophysical Journal Astrophysics and Space Science
• Lerner's articles have been cited by peer-reviewed non-plasma physics journals such as: Physical Review A , Nature , Astronomy and Astrophysics , Astrophysics and Space Science

Again, this seems very far from the "pseudoscience" allegation. --Iantresman 10:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles, sure, I would expect that. What about his book? (BTW, I'm strongly against the "pseudoscience" term, I couldn't find any real substantiation for that.) Mangojuice 13:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope, only the ones in the plasma science citations provided above. --Iantresman 14:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to respond to "I for one am very much against quoting many different sources". I am very much against removing any source either pro or con (that is a subject of this debate) and would like to propose that any such source be moved to a footnote rather than deleted. WAS 4.250 23:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources, sure. But there's no need to keep the full quotes; even in references that's unnecessary. - unsigned Mangojuice

It is important whenever a source is provided to give the reader data on what is at the source that is relevant to the aricle. WAS 4.250 01:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really. Check out any featured article's references and you'll find very few where the reference is explained any more than simply providing the details of the source. Today's featured article, Mosque, includes quotes in (I think) 3 of 81 references, and of those, none are actually needed. Mangojuice 02:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sole reliable supporter of Eric's book

There is really only one legitimate supporter of Eric's work mentioned above. Not unsurprisingly, Van Allen, who Eric managed to get to favorably review his very dated book for his dust jacket, isn't exactly trumpeting the fortunes of Eric today. Why did this luminary favorably review Eric's work? It happens that Van Allen is one of the few remaining of a literally dying breed of old-school astrophysicists who were philosophical fans of the steady state model, and never quite got comfortable with what CMB observations were saying about the universe. When Eric's ideas first gained traction in the 1990s, some cosmologists were concerned that the CMB might have no anisotropies at all (which would have meant a terrible problem for the Big Bang model). So while the handwringing began, a lot of these old-time believers came out of the woodwork hoping to salve their wounds from being on the losing side in the great Hoyle v. Gammow bouts back in the 40s, 50s, and into the 60s. For some thirty years, few had been pursuing new leads in cosmological models. Hoyle was still around, but his ideas had grown archaic and weird. Then out of the small corner of people who studied Alfven, Eric emerged to champion a new hope with of all things electricity. Their hope unfortunately proved to be misplaced. First of all, Eric was pretty roundly panned in the astronmical community when he appeared at a few conferences in the early 90s to taunts and jeers. It was soon realized by even the more placating cosmologists nervous about the smoothness of the CMB that Eric's command of physics and astronomy belied that of a student couldn't pass qualifiers in graduate school. Eric had a rather embarassing encounter (sometimes termed a "debate") at Princeton University with David Spergel who put him to shame for his lack of rigor. When COBE discovered the anisotropies, the community breathed a collective sigh of relief and Eric attained official "flash in the pan" status.

What is left of Eric's brush with his great hope of Einstein-like greatness is a dead idea (from a research perpsective) that in no way keeps pace with current understandings of cosmology. Comparing Eric's work to that of Seljak or Hu is like comparing a nursery rhyme to James Joyce. Eric now publishes his work in second-rate astronomy journals from time-to-time claiming with shoddy techniques and innuendo that there are problems with the standard paradigm, but his pleas have fallen mainly on deaf ears. In the last 10 years, the only laudatory comments are from those not directly involved with cosmological research, a state of marginalization admitted to by Eric in his puff-piece "open letter" submitted to New Scientist magazine. The way to describe Eric's work is of brief fringe interest some 15 years ago and now completely dismissed for being no good alternative to the Big Bang.

--71.57.90.3 05:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• New Scientist published a letter indicating a couple of dozen scientists who might disagree with your summary,. Since then, several HUNDRED other scientists, engineers, and other researchers have added their names. Since then, there has also been an academic conference on "Alternative Cosmologies".
• Lerner's theories, based on the Alfvén's "Plasma Universe" continues to be investigated, see for example the "IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science" (IEEE TPS) (2003 Vol 31 No 6), a peer-reviewed publication of the IEEE Nuclear and Plasma Sciences Society which has some 30,000 members; the American Astronomy Society has but 6500 members,. Another special issue of the IEEE TPS on the Plasma Universe is due in 2007. --Iantresman 10:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
• Gary F Moring's book, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Theories of the Universe" was published in 2002. It includes a section on Plasma Cosmology, and doesn't seem to be as dismissive; I would suggest the description is exemplary in writing neutrally about controversial subjects. --Iantresman 10:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

1) By design, there is no way to judge the status of the "dozens of scientists" who were signors of the Open Letter. More than a few have no familiarity with physics. Some don't even have bachelors degrees in scientific disciplines. 2) Eric publishes in out-of-the-way and second-rate journals, yes. That does not make his ideas "investigated" by anyone but his own clique. Yes, he was one of the people at the "alternatice cosmology conference" which had no scientific society affiliation and suffers from the same status problems as the Open Letter. 3) Using an "Idiot's Guide" as a reference is idiotic. Don't do it. I know Moring personally. He is a teacher for University of Phoenix, an online for-profit university of questionable "diploma-mill" repute, and he is basically a science writer, like Lerner, who couldn't cut it in the field. The page linked has no fewer than six distinct errors I caught. The author is not qualified to write the book, it seems. Accuracy is important.

--71.57.90.3 06:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

And by the same reasoning:

• there is no way to judge that "There is really only one legitimate supporter of Eric's work mentioned above." Are you psychic?
• Surely you're not suggesting that The IEEE Transactions on Plasma Sciences is a second-rate, out-of-the-way journal? There are probably many astronomy journals that I haven't heard of, but I wouldn't dream of calling them second-rate.
• What do you mean that Moring is "basically a science writer"? Is your only form of criticism to denigrate other scientists? I don't know Moring, but it seems that he has an M.A. from John F. Kennedy University, a B.A. from the University of Wisconsin, and a Ph.D. Candidate at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, majoring in Cosmology. And it seems that he has time to write as well... and your assumption is that he "couldn't cut it in the field". I bow down to your superiour intellect and wisdom, and will make sure that all book publishers check with you first. --Iantresman 10:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The reference is to the only legitimate supporter verifiably mentioned. IEEE transactions is neither an astrophysics nor a physical cosmology journal (making it out-of-the-way). Eric has a habit of submitting his papers to every journal he can think of because his papers on plasma cosmology tend to be rejected more often than not because of his incompetence. He found modest success with IEEE only because their editors are not familiar with astronomy and one of them is a sincere fan of Alfvèn. California Institute of Integral Studies is not generally considered a reputable institution for astronomical study. Moring is a New Age guru who likes to believe that the "universe" can talk to him in a very esoteric/quasi religious fashion. He would fit right in at the cosmology article, but he is no scientist. --ScienceApologist 20:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

IEEE Transactions may well be out-of-the-way for astronomers; It's not for plasma physicists. The implication that "astronomers must no best" is an arrogant conceit. --Iantresman 20:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The assumption is that when someone writes about astronomy, astronomical journals are usually where one does it. --ScienceApologist 20:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

When someone writes about plasma, it seems equally valid to publish in a journal where people also know about the subject. As Alfvén himself recounted:

".. it gives me a possibility to approach the phenomena from another point than most astrophysicists do, and it is always fruitful to look at any phenomenon under two different points of view. On the other hand it has given me a serious disadvantage. When I describe the phenomena according to this formalism most referees do not understand what I say and turn down my papers. With the referee system which rules US science today, this means that my papers rarely are accepted by the leading US journals. Europe, including the Soviet Union, and Japan are more tolerant of dissidents." Memoirs of a Dissident Scientist, American Scientist, May - June 1988

Which is not to say that papers aren't published in astronomy journals too,; it's a shame you weren't there to advise them of their folley. --Iantresman 20:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

None of this speaks to the main point of this section. It's clear now that Eric is marginalized, derided, and not accepted by the astronomical community. The article should not pussyfoot around this fact. --ScienceApologist 20:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Certain people may deride Lerner's work, but they don't speak for anyone else but themselves. I'll agree that there is no acceptance by the astronomical community; but demonstrably, Lerner's work and extended theories are nevertheless STILL discussed in IEEE journals and elsewhere. --Iantresman 22:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

If Jonathan continues to vandalize this page, I will request that it again be protected in the version that it was last protected.Elerner 03:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages defines what vandalism is. My edits do not fall in line with that definition. I suggest you respond to the actual content of the edits themselves. Page protection is not meant to endorse any specific version of the article. You'll have to work with me to get to a consensus or use dispute resolution to get to the bottom of your issues. --ScienceApologist 04:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Having reviewed the article history, accusations of vandalism are clearly false, and a breach of WP:Civility. SA's contributions appear highly useful, and in many cases clearly backed up by Misplaced Pages policy. Jefffire 12:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see there is a conflict of interest from Elerner. I generaly regard it to be a bad idea for Wikipedians to edit there own articles. Jefffire 12:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• I object to ScienceApologist's removal of Lerner's status as an "astronomer" or "scientist", which is verifiable material:

• This Goddard Space Flight Center page says that Lerner "... was recently a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Santiago, Chile", as does "The Space Show" page . The ESO descibes Lerner as a "Visiting Scientist"
• That Riccardo Scarpa invited Lerner, is irrelevent in a biography on Lerner, and Scarpa's position on the Big Bang and MOND are also nothing to do with Lerner. --Iantresman 13:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Lerner's major research activity is his own independent work into fusion which is only obliquely related to his plasma cosmology anymore. There is a good argument to be made that his advocacy of plasma cosmology is done to boost his reputation and get funding for his lab. Lerner's credentials are also sorely lacking. --ScienceApologist 14:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the place to make arguments are debate. It describes verifiable information, and it is verifiable that he was considered a visiting astronomer. --Iantresman 15:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I suppose the question is: What makes someone a scientist or an astronomer? Jefffire 15:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Being invited by a friend to visit an observatory doesn't make someone necessarily an astronomer. Unless Ian has a source for such a claim. --ScienceApologist 15:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." . It is verifiable that Lerner was invited as a visiting astronomer and/or visiting scientist. --Iantresman 15:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

But is it verifiable that he is one? It's our own little demarkation problem. Jefffire 15:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not for us to decide. That he was visiting astronomer is verifiable, whether he is one or not --Iantresman 16:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Just because you are invited to visit an observatory doesn't mean that you are a professional astronomer. --ScienceApologist 16:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The sources don't say he was an invited professional astronomer. The sources say he was invited an "vistiting astronomer"; Lerner could be Santa Claus for all I care, but the sources say he was an invited astronomer. That is verifiable and meets Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion. --Iantresman 18:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It's also verifiable that he was invited to visit an observatory by a fellow signatory of the Open Letter. Why should we include that he was supposedly an invited "astronomer"? Seems arbitrary to me. --ScienceApologist 19:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Because the verifiable sources say that he's an invited astronomer. --Iantresman 19:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it -- especially if its misleading and there are other points that are verifiable about the same subject as well. --ScienceApologist 19:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

How is it misleading? --Iantresman 19:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Saying that I was invited by Riccardo Scarpa to visit ESO is very different than saying that ESO invited me to be a Visiting Astronomer. The latter is the truth. A five-person committee, of which Riccardo Scarpa is not a member, decided who is to be a Visiting Astronomer for a month, based on proposals from “inviting scientists” –in my case, Scarpa. On the basis of the invitation from ESO’s committee, the Visiting Astronomer is given an ESO stipend to cover their stay and is invited to give a seminar at ESO. All of these are organizational decisions by ESO. I was invited by ESO's committee, given the stipend and I presented the seminar.

To continually revert this information is to introduce false information on a biographical entry, which is not allowed. Also, reverting to eliminate that false information is not covered by the three-revert rule, but introducing it is. I have requested protection for this page, as the willful introduction of false information is not allowed by Misplaced Pages standards.Elerner 00:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Now Eric, that's not exactly what happens at ESO and you should know it considering you were invited there. The committee in question acts more of a rubber stamp as long as the astronomer requesting the visit hasn't been over-burdening the observatory with requested visitors. If Scarpa hadn't invited you, there is no way you would have been offered a visit. Can you point to a case where the committee turned down a prospective visitor due to a poor proposal? --ScienceApologist 13:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

How in the world would you know Joshua? Have you been invited there as a visiting astronomer?Of course you are 100% wrong. Since the invitations come with money attached and there is a finite pool of money, of course the committee has to decide who to invite and not act as a rubber stamp. The fact is it was ESO that invited me. Your behavior is completely unprofessional. Elerner 20:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The better question is, how in the world do we know whether you know, Eric? How can we nkow that you have seen the inner workings of this particular ESO committee? I happen to know personally because I have friends who were invited to ESO to work just like you. Of course, neither of our claims about the way this process happens are verifiable so therefore they cannot be used as evidence for this article. The fact is that you were invited to ESO by a Scarpa. This is all arguments based on hearsay (from both ends) and so all we have to go on is the evidence. The evidence clearly shows that you were invited to ESO by Scarpa. I have no problem reporting this. Why do you? --ScienceApologist 12:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

We know because it is verifiable, as provided by the TWO sources I gave earlier. The sources say that Lerner was a "visting astronomer", whether Lerner was actually a visiting astronomer, whether he really turned up, really is an astronomer, or anything else, is conjecture. --Iantresman 13:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be two issues here: 1) How to write about Eric Lerner being invited to ESO, 2) whether Lerner is an "astronomer" in the same sense that, for example, Martin Rees is an astronomer. The first issue involves whether or not to report that he was invited by Scarpa. Since this is verifiable fact, I see no reason why we should exclude it and it provides a good context for his invite (he was invited as a proponent of non-standard cosmologies). The second is a more tricky categorical controversy and doesn't lend itself to simple sourcing or verification. In theory, ESO can invite anybody they want, but simply inviting someone to an observatory with a stipend doesn't make that person an astronomer. However, we may not have a good criteria for what makes an astronomer. In any case, the two issues must be separated lest we confuse them. --ScienceApologist 14:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

One of the verifiable sources says "he was recently a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory". How he came to be invited is irrelevent. Is he an astronomer like Martin Rees, again is irrelevent. I have no doubt that there are probably different astronomers, those with telescopes, those without, those that have published papers, those that haven't, those with degrees, those without. One thing is for sure, it is not for you to decide, as ScienceApologist is not verifiable. --Iantresman 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ian tries to railroad ScienceApologist

ScienceApologist, I have reported you for what amounts to personal attacks on Eric Lerner, by attempting to discredit him in contravention of Misplaced Pages's official policy on No personal attacks. --Iantresman 15:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

An administrator's comments to ScienceApologist can be found here --Iantresman 11:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It is unforunate that Ian has continued in his old habits of supporting vexatious litigation against me. Fortunately, the evidence is all there that Ian's advocacy is based in his own personal vendetta and has no basis in fact. --ScienceApologist 12:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

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