Misplaced Pages

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Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon _EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon _EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon _EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon _EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Misplaced Pages as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Misplaced Pages? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon _EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You know that she's going to make a new account anyway! What's the point for all of this hassle? This is a complete waste of our time! If we just give her a second chance on Misplaced Pages, less time for us working on her case, and one more volunteer Wikipedian.--Ed 02:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u welcomed Starcare, who is likely a puppet of Publicola, who is likely a puppet of Pepsidrinka. Hard punt. Lots of socks involved here.--Scribner 03:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You see? The situation's getting worse. The only solution is to back off or get more admin power.--Ed 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Scribner obviously has something against Pepsidrinka, so I'm taking his comments with more than a pinch of salt. – Chacor 03:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much of a stretch. Ed, sorry, but Cute 1 4 u has just done too much. Yeah, she'll keep coming back, and she'll continue to contact you, and we'll continue to deal with her. If she realizes that she's not helping, then we'll stop blocking, but as long as she continues to contact you and admit that she's who she is, then we have to block her. Ryūlóng 04:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm not the only one she might want to contact. Do you even realize that she could be lurking around Misplaced Pages right this moment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

75.34.12.156 is another one. Posted on my talk page Æon _EA! 07:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about this IP you found, but I think we should wait until she does something else before we take action against this IP.--Ed 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked it was her (The post admited it) Æon _EA! 00:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How long is the block? --Ed 00:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible one Prple space mnky@hotmail.com edited with the summary Got to keep it real on edit summary (Dif ) a phrase that she used many many times as her qoute. Caught this one while monitoring recent changes Æon _EA! 00:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Cute 1 4 u. If I had any socks, I'd admit them. I already told you all of them. But Ed is right, I'm trying to prove my point. --75.33.230.133 02:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Prple space mnky@hotmail.com , User:Starcare, or User:Publicola. I swear, I don't even know them. However, to prove my point, all i can say is that i have a new account and I am much nicer on that account. Ed is right. --75.33.230.133 02:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have found another sock and I requested a check user (Came up again on Recent changes, edits article that were created by other socks with teh same grammer an such) Æon _EA! 02:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More or less confrimed the sockpuppet. Autoblock got it (See TV Lover) Æon _EA! 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Cute 1 4 u (or whatever) is going to get me a headache. I tried asking her why she's doing this on her talk page, but she said she's "going to commit 'suiside' ," or something. I don't know... I know this may sound stupid, but can't we block her IP address, so she stops creating these annoying sockpuppets? Cheers! The RSJ - 03:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She's on a dynamic IP, SBC, I believe (according to the WHOIS reports). There's not much we can do but keep blocking her new accounts. She's not committing suiside any time soon. Ryūlóng 05:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please clarify your statement? "Committing suicide"? Is it literal or figurative? --physicq210 05:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Prob Figurative she is 11 years old and has a history of being overly dramatic. Æon _EA! 05:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She'll be back tomorrow, probably recreating that article of hers. Ryūlóng 05:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any way to protect the page from being created, say, creating a blank article then fully protecting it? Shadow1 17:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the article she keeps creating? Æon _EA! 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This situation is getting nowhere. In fact, it's getting worse. She will keep making new accounts, and you know that. We must find a permanent solution to this.--Ed 00:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The soulition is simple keep blocking her. We can't block her IP with out cuasing other issues. Æon _EA! 08:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone contacted SBC about this user? Letting them know that the misbehavior of one 11-year-old kid might lead to Misplaced Pages blocking their entire DHCP range could be an incentive for them to listen. -- llywrch 19:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I must tell you something. I live in the same area as Cute 1 4 u (not the same suburban area, we don't live close together or anything, we both in Metropolitan Chicago, which is in the United States). Anyway, SBC changed to AT&T in Chicago. AT&T bought SBC, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about.--Ed 22:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me get my facts straight. Take a look at SBC Communications, which says that SBC was the one who bought AT&T. They then changed their name. --Ed 22:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism of Utonagan page

There have been repeated occurences of vandalism on the Utonagan page within Misplaced Pages. These have implied that Utonagan have wolf content or are related to other wolf-look-a-likes who have wolf content. They have also mentioned behavioral problems which do not exist in the breed, and have even gone to the extent as to imply that they originated from alaskan dogs with wolf content.

As the foremost breeder of Utonagan in the country, these have become more than irritating.

The TCP/IP address of the user known to make these changes is: 212.36.181.65

With thanks

Nadia Carlyle

www.twatha-utonagan.com

User:BADMINton

Can someone review his behaviour please? He has been giving people vandalism tags in content disputes, and when I asked him about this, he became rather hostile User_talk:Blnguyen#Personal_attacks.3F, so I would like someone else to have a look in case that I am too involved to act impartially, or at least give the impression of partiality. His posts since then leave me wondering about whether he is serious about editing here. In one edit summary he refers to User:Hornplease as "Horny", for instance. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir issued a final warning. Guy 09:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Despite explaining WP:3RR and WP:BLP to him, he continuosly broke 3RR by adding unreferenced and potentially libelous commentry. I've reported him to WP:AN/3RR. --Ragib 09:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The ban is unjustified and User:Ragib should peruse the policy (written in English) once again. Which text was "unreferenced"? Good Bloke 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

CheckUser shows that this new user is BADMINton using a sockpuppet to evade his block. Dmcdevit·t 01:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Though the jibes at Hornplease were quite unwarranted, the trouble with User:Ikonoblast (formerly User:Holywarrior are not unique to Badminton. At least 6 users have been insulted, cheated, and affected negatively by Ikonoklast's actions. Soft discipline should be given to Badminton.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, here is what this user has been doing, since emerging from his block:

• Opened a sockpuppet account Good Bloke (talk · contribs) to evade the block.

No comments on such a statement. Does this call for a ban? ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Nazi user box, claims in his user box page to be a Nazi, with a swastika image

The Swastika is sacred. The Nazis lost the war and Germans still love them. Plus, it's MY sandbox.♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Also, in the same page, claims to be a Misplaced Pages lawyer in an userbox.

Hilarious! I can try anything in my sandbox. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Added fake gfdl-self tags to an image taken from a website, and upon being notified of the copyvio, retorted that he is the original source though (even the low res image's pixel sizes match exactly).
• Copypasted huge amounts of text from a website, reverted the copyvio reversion, (claiming he material is NOT copyrighted. It appeared in the Pioneer and it is freely distributed. Several websites are using it."),
• For reverting these copyvios, attacked me in my talk page, saying "Please do not dissuade other users if you yourself cannot contribute a word to this encyclopedia. ", and even worse, accused me of "racism".

Who accused you of racism? ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Engaged in incivility towards other users.

How can I comment on a baseless comment? Back your claims. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that, this user has been redirected to the appropriate policies countless times, so lack of knowledge of policies does not seem to be an issue here.

An RFCU has been filed, but regardless of the result of that, I think some other admin should take a look into the above behavior, and act accordingly. Thanks. --Ragib 22:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If I block this account for the copyright infringement until they commit to not doing any more of it, is someone going to object? Jkelly 22:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is something which should be done immediately. Even after a lengthy discussion and advice thread on his talk page, he just uploaded the same image under a different spelling. See this. Even worse, the user continues to claim this to be "gfdl-self" while the image is clearly taken from a website (low res, exact pixel/file sizes). --Ragib 22:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked, noting that the user can be unblocked when they commit to not engaging in further plagiarism or copyright infringement. Jkelly 22:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

They've commited to this, so I've unblocked. Any other problems should be handled through normal dispute resolution. Jkelly 23:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is worth note that User:Ragib pays more attention to what I am doing than contributing anything to the Misplaced Pages. ♔BADMIN♛ (आओ✍) 23:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggest community ban of User:Mccready from editing Pseudoscience articles for one month

Mccready (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has exhausted the patience of many editors of many pseudoscience articles. I suggest a one month ban from editing any pseudoscience article. The ban can be enforced by any administrator with a 31 hour block. Mccready is encouraged to use the talk pages of these articles to make suggestions about ways to improve the article. Many editors of these articles recognize his knowledge on the topics but can not deal with his insistence on editing the article precisely his way. This includes many editors that share his skeptical view about these topics. The other alternatives are a longer block to try and make him understand the need for consensus editing or an arbitration case. The community needs to act now because these articles are losing good editors out of frustration with having to deal with Mccready. I'm encouraging Mccready and the editors of these articles to comment here. Thoughts and other suggestions welcome? FloNight 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some backstory if I am not mistaken between FloNight and this user and with SlimVirgin. Seems FloNight supported a block that Mccready was unhappy with at one point. --User:Zer0faults 16:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify; Flo's proposal here followed a request from me on her Talk page that she review Mccready's edits on one particular day; I approached her because I judged that she would be cool and knowledgeable in this matter.Gleng 15:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been somewhat involved in the article and while I agree with a fair bit of Mccready is trying to do he has been stubborn and uncivil. However the article that is the focus of this (Pseudoscience) as a whole is such a complete mess with so much edit warring that I'm not sure Mccready is any worse than many others. No strong attitude either way. JoshuaZ 16:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please ask him, if no penalty is laid out, to stop using popups for reverting. Its creating a page where it looks like he is just reverting to revert, there are no edit summaries in most cases stating what he is objecting to, that kind of reverting may bother other users. --User:Zer0faults 16:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of reverting on all the pseudoscience and related articles for a long time now. Lots of disputed tagging of Category:Psudoscience on various articles, see for example Category:Alternative medicine. This is one of those simmering disputes and I don't think a block of one editor will resolve it. If anything is to be done it should go through RfC at least. --Salix alba (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Using popup for revering non-vandalism isn't a good idea. But this hint is even missing from Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation popups. --Pjacobi 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reversion is clearly warned against in WP:DR, however, which Mccready has been made aware of repeatedly. --Jim Butler 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not the point. It's the question, whether popups reverting should be restricted to vandalism reverts, as are admin button reverts. --Pjacobi 18:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. My point is that reverting is generally discouraged except in the case of vandalism (see also Help:Reverting), so the specific case of popups is no different. WP:ES talks about the need for leaving some sort of edit summary that's helpful to other editors. Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation_popups describes an option that lets the user be prompted to add an edit summary under popupRevertSummaryPrompt. Mccready's edit history for 11 Sept. 2006 does show a number of reverts using popups, some (not all) of which closely follow discussion on the talk page; edit summaries in such cases would help casual readers understand that you are indeed discusssing. Mccready, if you adjust your monobook.js file you should be able to use popups and leave an informative edit summary, which will improve others' assumption of your good faith. --Jim Butler 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with this ban - I have tried to reason with Mccready in the past over pseudoscience categorisation and it is not easy to do, but since his previous ban he has not caused any conflict over this particular issue. I hope such a ban will help him to change his attitude to other editors. --apers0n 17:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I support the ban too. I had a similar problem with McCready some months ago, and I'm disappointed to see it has continued with other editors. People have been very patient with McCready, and FloNight and Friday have both tried to help him, so I feel we should trust their judgment about how to proceed. SlimVirgin 17:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. I reviewed a sample of recent edits and found a mix of good and indifferent. For example, removing "Reflexology Works - Case Studies As To Why It Works" from reflexology is perfectly acceptable by me. Perhaps we should instead ban all the fans of these pseudosciences who keep inserting special pleading? Guy 17:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's exhausted the patience of many there. I support it as well. FeloniousMonk 18:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support, though a "community ban" of one month in a specific subject matter isn't really a community ban, IMO. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I don't recall any personal run-in with McCready... I only know of him based on his edits, his comments and other people's comments about him. I just took the time to read through all of McCready's talk pages (including the archived ones). I see a lot of complaints lodged against him by a great deal of frustrated editors. I also took a look at his recent edits and took note of when he was recently blocked. In each recent instance of being blocked, McCready was warned against using pop-ups to do mass reverts. Despite these warnings, he went right back to doing mass reverts with the pop-up tool. He was also warned about making personal attacks or as we call them here ad hominem. Yet, McCready ignores these pleadings and continues to insult other editors and push his POV at the expense of civility. There have been many attempts to see if he would change his ways, but each time he disappoints us. I think we are done testing him to see if he will learn. It's time for the rest of us to learn. We can try this 10-day ban, but personally I don't think it's enough. TheDoctorIsIn 18:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support. I still perceive some uncivility and uncollaborativeness. He's trending positive lately, using Talk pages to discuss more popup reverts than in the past, but still not all. (He says he uses popups to compensate for a slow dialup connection, but as I noted above, Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation_popups shows how to leave an edit summary when using popups). Smart editor, underestimates others' intelligence and good faith, needs to work on collaborating. --Jim Butler 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support with the chance for mediation. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative environment and he has repeatedly decided not to collaborate. You can tell by his edit history that he trolls for places to tag his opinions, mostly by deletions or adding pseudoscience to the category section. I can’t recall anytime he has added to the quality of a topic. The way he uses WP is not constructive and is disruptive to the whole process. I don’t care what he adds or detracts from the topic pseudoscience. That page is nonsense and full of unneeded negativity. A ban from that page by itself would be counterproductive. If he isn’t willing to change his editing, by contributing instead of “trolling and tagging” than I suppose a ban from the site, and not just a topic, would be in order. The admin needs to also make sure there aren’t any sock puppets coming from his IP address. Thanks for asking for my input. --Travisthurston 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inlined to support as well, although not all of Mccready's edits have been bad. However, he is quite disruptive, so a ban of some length is warranted. •Jim62sch• 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Uncivil. No Discussion. However I agree with the general argument that it would be useful to come to a categorisation of many of the articles selected by Mccready. Sholto Maud 21:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Support One month. Is that all? His long history of polarizing articles and editors has wasted the time of many good editors. He has used heavy-handed edits and reverts with no discussion resorting to uncivil edit summaries. I have personal history with this editor and he already has been blocked several times. This list would be shorter if instead we listed those editors who haven't had problems with him. Steth 00:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Mccready is always spot on with his targeted edits and I appreciate the heads-up for a weak spot, but his correction edit is usually just as POV in the opposite direction. His POV is important as it keeps everythng honest, but having to continually revert is disruptive and we can spend days on one sentence to get consensus then Mccready will come back and start it all over again with the same edit. Again the process comes to a stop. As long as his talk page comments remain civil and he is able to avoid ad hominem language, I would apprectiate his help. Maybe this way he can actually develop a rapport with editors that will be constructive. --Dematt 17:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. I find him to be stubborn, uncivil, uncooperative and a bully. Aside from attacking and stalking editors, he also makes wild claims such as he is the only one in all of Misplaced Pages who is responsible enough to decide what constitutes a good edit. Another editor frustrated with him said he has an intractable sense of Know-It-All-ism. I can't speak for all of his edits, but on the topics which I edit, I can certainly affirm that he doesn't know it all. None of us do. What he is good at is "wikilawyering" his way out of the many blocks and warnings which he has received in his short time here. I believe that he has insulted and bullied several Wikipedians and Admins to the point where they give up on WP entirely. I have pointed out to him that there are a great deal of editors who are annoyed with him... hoping that realizing this would cause him to reform his ways. It has not. I have gone through the trouble of listing out all of the pop up reverts that he did in one 24-hour period, hoping that laying it out for him would help he realize the havoc he creates. That didn't work apparently. I had also hoped that his 1, 3, and 5 day blocks would help him see the light. Clearly these haven't had any effect on him either. It's high time we send a much stronger message by way of much stonger penalty. A one month block from WP across the board seems entirely warranted here. Call me a bleeding-heart, but I think McCready is still capable of reform. Levine2112 17:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Okay Levine2112, you're "a bleeding-heart" .....;-) I am not as optimistic. -- Fyslee 21:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support And if issues keep going make it longer. This editor has exhausted the community patience. Æon _EA! 15:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell Kinney's block of ScienceApologist

I would like to question the block of ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The block reason was "POV pishing, removal of sourced information", neither of which are objective or valid block reasons. As far as I can ascertain ScienceApologist was simply editing an article on one of those fringe scientists to be more in line with mainstream scientific thought; rather than being "POV-pushing", this appears to me to be more "NPOV-pushing". As for "removal of sourced information", just because something is sourced doesn't automatically mean that it indefinitely merits inclusion in an article. Articles grow too long, they need to be trimmed, or maybe better information can be found ... regardless, removing some information is a natural part of the editing process, and does not appear to me to be a reason why someone should be blocked. Unless there are some objections I would like to go ahead and unblock ScienceApologist, as it appears to me that this block was inappropriate. I would also caution Shell Kinney to use more care in the future with her admin tools rather than simply blocking someone because she disagrees with him. Your thoughts? --Cyde Weys 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A Misplaced Pages:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard#ScienceApologist_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29 came through the personal attack intervention noticeboard - it wasn't really in the right place, but after a day of looking into the issue it appeared there was a real problem with ScienceApologist pushing a POV on the article, up to and including removed sourced info and even replacing it with negative information from a dubious source. He's continued to edit war insisting on these changes and talk page discussion hasn't done much to help - in addition to incivil edit summaries, gems like Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it when presented with information verifying the subject is a working "visting astronomer" at an observatory as opposed to his preferred "went on a visit to" said observatory. Unfortunately, the pattern outlined at the report, noted in the RfC and evident on the discussion page is that ScienceApologist is after the truth and discarding verifiability in the process. I left a note asking him to stop the behavior - he responded with a straw man on my talk and promptly continued his crusade.

So, in short, I've blocked him for 24 hours for tendentious editing, disrupting the article to push a POV and consistently violating WP:V on the article. His response was a fairly typical "heavy-handed" admin "ignorant" of the situation.... In any case, block here for review/adjustment/comment. Thanks. Shell 17:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You should have put that in the block reason then. As I currently see it, we have some people with strong beliefs on either side of this issue, and they need to meet somewhere in the middle through discussion and consensus. That can't be done if we simply block one side. However, if ScienceApologist is repeatedly reverting back to his preferred version and refuses to discuss, that obviously is an issue, and that should have been in the block reason and if it continues it should go to arbitration. --Cyde Weys 18:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely screwed the pooch on the blocking summary - I'll be more careful with it in the future. In my defense, I was writing this up here before the block was questioned, but that doens't excuse a sloppy summary. For the record, I'm not involved in the dispute and these folks seriously need to be using dispute resolution. Shell 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to unblock now ... it does sound like it was deserved. Glad I decided to discuss first rather than revert another admin's actions :-D Cyde Weys 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Which specific edits does shell consider POV here? Considering that the filing was made by an established pseudoscience POV pusher, I have to question it's validity. I've reviewed SA's recent edits presented there and though he's been blunt, I see no evidence of "blantant" POV pushing or personal attacks. I consider this block questionable and too late (over 24 hrs after reported at WP:) to be anything other than punitive (blocking is not meant as punishment) and therefore am unblocking him. Please look a little deeper into those making the filings first next time. FeloniousMonk 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, the removal of sourced content he disagrees with and the addition of criticism based on a highly dubious comment on a blog entry - note that one of the statements he removed was from the Chicago Tribune of which he says "Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source." ; you might also note the heading change. If this is pseudoscience, it should be easy to come up with reliable sources to dispute the theories; there shouldn't be any need for underhanded tactics. Or despite two references to the contrary, continuing to insist "visiting astrologer" (connotation priviledges at the observatory) be replaced with "was asked to visit"? Or maybe removing background information calling it "cruft"? .

Basically, there's a wealth of things to choose from and attacking the character of the person reporting the problem isn't solving anything. The block was for his most recent complete reversion to his preferred version, not about the report on the noticeboard - please read the ongoing discussion linked above. If you disagree with the block, that's fine, but please, don't pretend this is acceptable behavior.Shell 19:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

In science, avoid citing the popular press (from WP:RS). SA stating that Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source is totally in line with policy and precedents. --Pjacobi 19:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Wouldn't this also make a comment on a blog a similarly poor source? Shell 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Lerner doesn't look to be a mainstream scientist, I don't see the issue with saying as much. That the person who filed the report has a long history of promoting pseudoscience at the expense of actual science is relevant, particularly when WP processes are misused to gain the upper hand over his opponents in simple content disputes, as his subsequent comments indicate . FeloniousMonk 19:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You're skirting the issue - this isn't about whether or not someone is a mainstream scientist. Again, I ask that you read the information provided. I reviewed the dispute for 24 hours before issuing a warning on the situation - my response had nothing to do with who initiated the report and everything to do with the actual behavior involved. Both parties should be involved in more dispute resolution. Its worth noting that the RfC I pointed out earlier had several people coming to the same conclusion about ScienceApologist's edits that I did. He pushes a mainstream POV and actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe - in and of itself, not so much of a problem, but when it leads to constant reverting, removing verified information and being forced to support your opinion with some random comment on a blog, then it becomes an issue. Hopefully everyone involved can work on developing a consensus and remember that verifiability doens't equal truth. Shell 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Learner's work is viewed as pseudoscience. Thus SA when "He pushes a mainstream POV" is simply applying WP:NPOV. Again, where's the blockable offense? That SA "actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe" is an assumption on your part. Much of the debate on fringe science takes place on blogs, as with intelligent design. FeloniousMonk 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As FeloniousMonk and this additional caveat:

Whereas we are guided by WP:BLP to stay on the safe side in biographies, at Eric Lerner (and rather typical for not-so-mainstream-scientists) there is not only biography proper to be found, but also his scientific views and theories. I'd say that such sections have to take as much (of course sourced) criticisms by as a sepaarte article would do.

Pjacobi 18:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm totally surprised that ScienceApologist has been blocked. I know him as probably the best editor of articles on physics we have on Misplaced Pages. It's possible that he went too far fighting over scientific truth (but even here I can understand his zeal as a scientist myself) but after looking into the article, I can confirm that he was as right as one can be. Whatever Eric Lerner does, it's not mainstream science. Friendly Neighbour 19:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Iantresman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research, and is not above wikilawyering or sailing close to WP:NPA himsef. Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist and should be congratulated for remaining relatively calm in the face of such nonsense. — Dunc|☺ 19:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can not believe some of the comments here. ScienceApologist consistently removed positive verifiable information from the article, as I described, and has done so before .

• If the Chicago Tribune comment was removed because it is "not a decent critical source", why did ScienceApologist insist on including (a) information in another article sourced from Creationist Web sites (self published) (b) Add the "David Spergel" criticism,, whose only source appears to be a comment on someone's blog which fails Misplaced Pages's standards on reliable sources.
• It is irrelevent whether Lerner is a mainstream scientists or not, he still deserves respect and an NPOV write-up.
• I do not have "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics". Just because a subject is not mainstream does not make it pseudophysics, and nor is mentioning such subjects POV pushing as described therein.
• And what do you mean that "Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist". ScienceApologist is an anonymous, unaccountable editor. Eric Lerner has about 50 peer reviwed papers to his credit.

So we have one Admin (FeloniousMonk) calling me a "well-known pseudoscience POV pusher", and someone else (above) accusing me of "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research". Surely not discrediting comments? Thank goodness I didn't contribute to the ariticles on Gay/Black rights or Communism. --Iantresman 19:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A few points. First, Iantresman's history is not intrinsically relevant to the matter at hand. If there is a general problem with Ian's behavior an RfC should be filed or some similar behavior attempted. That said, from reading the above, the only thing I can see from SA's behavior that is at all problematic is including a blog entry. Note that in some cases we have considered blogs to be acceptable when they are written by people in the relevant field whose names and associations are clear and publically acknowledge the blogs as their's. While, I don't think the blog in question obviously meets that standard the attempted citation of a source which does not meet WP:RS hardly seems block worthy. Now as a separate matter-Ian's report- I don't see any strong issues of personal attack problems. Ian should bear in mind that WP:NPA applies against Misplaced Pages editors. Calling the subject of an article a "woo-woo" does not as far as I can see even lead to a WP:BLP problem. The only other issue here might therefore be some minor civility concerns. None of this however is block worthy. Furthermore, the only remaining matter of concern-the blog entry-is not a matter for a personal attack report. If FM is correct that Iantres has a history of these sorts of erroneous reports then I would strongly caution him not to do so again. JoshuaZ 20:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please compare Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Reddi 2. (If I remember everything right) in relation to that issue, SA got blocked by User:Ed Poor and User:Jossi, nearly left the project and stopped contributing under his real name. RfAr result completely cleared SA. --Pjacobi 20:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Trying to come back from very far afield and all the attempts to twist this around, the block was about completely discarding WP:V and sustained edit warring over a ridiculously long period of time. I asked very, very nicely for him to stop with the edit warring and was on my way to ask the same of the other major party (who, by the way, I would have blocked too if he wholesale reverted again). To clarify, there's no concern about mainstream POV being the prominent POV in the article. I can't see why ScienceApologist is insisting on a crap source just to get one more criticism in there (at 7, the article is hardly bankrupt of mainstream opinions). I don't understand why he's falling back on original research (his opinion of what a log means) to get a certain turn of phrase he wants. Above all, I'm not sure why this is worth constant edit warring instead of using the dispute resolution process. The aim, admirable - the methods, sloppy. If someone felt it wasn't block worthy, that's fine and why I offered other admins to change it at will but can we please stop pretending there's some moral high ground just because he has good intentions? Shell 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't argue with that, and I wouldn't - because I agree with it. --Crimsone 21:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• JoshuaZ, I would humbly like to note the context. I agree that a blog-sourced entry by itself is no reason to block a user. This is about bias. To claim that a positive comment sourced to the Chicago Times is "not descent", AND, then to replace it with a negative comment which is either unsourced, or sourced to a blog, is surely more than just an issue of reliable sources.
• In this context, of removing positive information (other examples ), to further remove the NASA-verifiable statement that Lerner was a "visiting astronomer" should be taken how? Where is the ambiguity, where is the contention? --Iantresman 21:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with JoshuaZ and FeloniousMonk. Nothing warranting a block. Also I suggest that in the future when you plan to block well established editors that you note it on AN/I for review before you block. This gives the community a chance to provide background information and context before the block. FloNight 21:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Flo, I did talk to other administrators about the issue - in fact, it came up twice in the past 24 hours. Even though other's felt that SAs behavior was getting a bit over the top, I still posted it here for even more opinions. You can look back through this board and see there's only been one other time I've blocked for disruption -- I don't use the tools lightly. I checked and cross-checked; people obviously disagree. It happens sometimes and its why I invite people to recind/change the block if they feel strongly different. Not once have I suggested SA should be reblocked or that FM can't view the situation differently, all I've said is that this was about breaking policies, not some arbitrary reasoning I pulled out of thing air. Shell 22:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell, blocking a well established editor with many good edits should be a very last resort. There needs to be wide community support. I'm suggesting that a full discussion with the community that includes the editor needs to occur before the block. Editors decide to leave the project or take prolonged breaks due to controversial blocks. If that happens in this case it will be a great loss to the project. FloNight 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Several editors have pointed out a misunderstanding of my comments here, so I wanted to clear it up. I am not defending the block - other administrators felt it wasn't warranted and it was reversed - done deal. The only thing I have a problem with is being accused of blocking because of bias, to gain the upperhand in a content dispute or out of some kind of malice. I also disagree with some editor's interpretation of SA's edits - I don't believe that unsourced edits or original research should be used for the "good" of any article. But again, other administrators felt this wasn't block worthy and reversed it and I have absolutely no problem with that. Shell 10:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

---

This dispute is created by the self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV in lacking clear and useable definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV. And in the absence of clear definitions of "bias," POV, and NPOV, packs of editors roam, ripping from Misplaced Pages whatever cited NPOV their dogma does not like. No administrator should have to justify blocking someone for deleting cited NPOV from a Misplaced Pages page. The explicit policy text of WP:NPOV should state that deleting cited NPOV from a page is wrong without replacing that scholar's POV with some clearer, cited, and published statement of another similarly partial scholar. After all, our job here is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias" against any significant view. The murky and self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV must be rewritten to support NPOV--which is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias." --Rednblu 22:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a point to this trolling, Rednblu? KillerChihuahua 00:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that you cut the above ad hominem and this response to my TalkPage where I would be glad to discuss that topic with you when I have time, my friend. And the question remains: What shall we do to rewrite the WP:NPOV page to have clear and useful definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV? --Rednblu 02:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So there is no point to your trolling? Trying to avoid the question by accusing me of a personal attack where there was none is not an answer. KillerChihuahua 09:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The self-contradictory text of the WP:NPOV page supports both of the opposing actions of Shell and SA.

• On the one hand, the WP:NPOV page requires that: To be NPOV, the Eric Lerner page "must represent all significant views fairly and without bias." Shell supported this wording by preventing the bias against the POV of the cited NASA announcement that SA deleted. SA violated this wording by biasing the page by removing the significant POV of the cited NASA announcement and inserting in its place the differing POV of the ESO list of visiting parties and inviters.

• On the other hand, the WP:NPOV page also contains the wrongly worded statement that "When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed." SA supported this wording by removing the bias he detected in the NASA announcement and fixing it with the citation to the ESO visitor list. Shell violated this wording by preventing the fix that suited SA's detection of bias.

The underlying difficulty is that no significant portion of the Misplaced Pages community wants to clarify the definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV in the WP:NPOV page. This is like a community not wanting clear and self-consistent definitions for what red, yellow, and green mean on the traffic lights at the intersections; they would rather enforce their own definitions at their own favorite intersections. Consequently in the absence of clear and self-consistent definitions, at any intersection and Misplaced Pages page where there are extreme POV biases among the editors, there is an on-going power struggle among whoever is there at the time over what red, yellow, green, "bias," POV, and NPOV mean. In the ensuing mêlée, rather than good and clear encyclopedia pages, the results are pages in the unclear, mangled, and POV state of New anti-semitism, ..., .... In these early days, the Eric Lerner page has not grown to the New anti-semitism length yet. But all the necessary power-struggles over the unclear and self-contradictory text in the WP:NPOV page are there already with enough energy to make it blossom into another sorry page if every POV and bias does its duty under "When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed," which is the duty to fix the bias that bias detects. For all of the above, reasons, we need to work together to develop clear and self-consistent definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV in the text of the WP:NPOV page. What do you think would be a good first step? --Rednblu 18:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist responds

There's a few things I'd like to get straight:

1. Shell Kinney came into this situation very dictatorially and did not discuss her actions civilly with the other editors.
2. She did not try to ascertain what the conflict was and did no research into the history of the conflict.
3. She unilaterally blocked me for what she now admits was a different offense than the one in her blocking summary.
4. She did not follow the procedures outlined on the Misplaced Pages page that describes what to do if a block is controversial.
5. She did not get any input from any other editors or administrators before unilaterally blocking.
6. She did not warn me specifically that I was going to be blocked on my talkpage before she blocked me, despite my explanation on her talkpage regarding the matter.
7. She has made up false accusations about me (such as that I've been a consistent edit warrior in this article for a year)
8. Right now it seems that the entire issue is based on anger over a single sourced blog as a poor source? I'm not sure what blog in question we are dealing with, but if it is the preposterous universe blog, this is a well-respected blog by a rather prominent astronomer at the University of Chicago.

Furthermore:

1. There is no indication that she looked at talkpage/archives of the affected article.
2. There is no indication that she looked at the links I made on her talkpage about this conflict.
3. There is no indication that she considered whether or not this was a content dispute and whether it was appropriate to block over such a dispute.

As such, I think that Shell Kinney needs to take a good hard look at her shoot-first-ask-questions-later administration tactics. This does not look to me like the actions of an administrator who is working to defuse conflicts. Right now I'm just about as upset as I was back in the Ed Poor days, and we're still dealing with the fallout of that nonsense nearly one year later. I feel very disrepsected by this Wikipedian.

I would like an apology from Shell Kinney for executing this action without doing the proper legwork or research to justify it. Or at the very least an explanation of the points I outlined above. I hope she understands the gravity of these issues.

--ScienceApologist 21:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

1. I left a very civil message in which I explicitly stated that you might be blocked and pointed you to a list of the exact edits that were a concern.
2. There were more than 12 hours from the initial report erroneously filed on WP:PAIN and my note on your talk page during which time I researched the dispute.
3. My fault on the block summary; I was trying to write a better explanation here and should have done better in the block summary. It was not different, just horribly unclear.
4. I'd like to know which of the points about controversial blocks I failed to follow.
5. Yes, actually, I talked to administrators about it last night and again this morning.
6. See answer to #1
7. You said it had been a year . If you were referring to the extended dispute on other articles and not just this one, I apologize for misunderstanding the remark.
8. This is about the blog, the original research and the edit warring.

You did leave me a note and yet 10 minutes later, you blanketly reverted yet again which forced the issue. You rightly pointed out that you were not guilty of personal attacks; I had already made this point when the report was originally made and the note I left you certainly wasn't about personal attacks but the policy problems in some of your changes. I understand where you're trying to get with the article and its an admirable goal. I've mentioned elsewhere that your work keeping junk from becoming respectable by virtue of being listed here is remarkable. However, all the good work in the world doesn't entitle you to take shortcuts - you shouldn't use poor sources, you shouldn't use original research to justify wording changings and edit warring never gets anyone anywhere. If it wasn't block worthy, then it wasn't - that's preceisly why I posted here with the request for other admins to review and change at will.

Sadly, it seems that people are assuming an incredible amount of bad faith on my part. Shell 22:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You left a "very civil message"?! Sorry, you come across as incredibly condescending. You may not think that you are, but that's how you come across.

One wishes you would consider this

• Us scientists, we have put a fair amount of work into our degrees. Please respect the dedication
• Most everyone who has edited any science article will have come across a kook and his theory. The kook hasn't done got half the clue the bona-fide scientist has. We all have a very very short fuse as a result. Note: this isn't advocating against NPOV; this is saying that only with appropiate training one can put the kooky theory into proper context.
• Next time you bump into such a conflict do get help from someone familiar with this issus. None of us are paid to edit here. Dr Zak 23:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Dr Zak, then perhaps you'd appreciate more than most, that having put in a fair amount of work into degrees and research, that to have one specific editor (ScienceApologiest) remove your status as a physicist removed , to have your awards removed , to have your positive criticisms removed AND replaced with negative ones , taken TOGETHER, at the very least appear to be biased, if not bordering on an attempt to discredit certain individuals.
• These particular edits do not require any knowledge as a scientists, just the ability to read sources. --Iantresman 09:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you didn't respond to my points in turn, I'll bullet the list with my response:

• Your "civil message" was responded by me in turn on your talkpage offering my opinion on the matter. The next correspondence I received from you was a block. No discussion, no attempt to figure out what my editting was about, you just simply blocked me. Warning that a user might be blocked should be accompanied by a reason. The reason you provided was incorrect as you later admitted and it is still nebulous yet as you will say on other points on this list.
• Your actions leading up to the block amounted to you making a unilateral decision based on a list of links User:Iantresman provided. If you had asked around about this user, you would have found a number of administrators who would have cautioned you against taking him at face-value. I even referred you to a mediation cabal case to illustrate the point. As far as I can ascertain you did not research this user at all, nor did you look for the context of the edits he wrote down on the wrong page.
• You did not engage in discussion with me, nor, it seems, did you do your homework in regards to this conflict. You simply preached and made pronouncements. This is not conduct becoming of an administrator.
• Please show me where you talked to administrators about this before the block and where another administrator looked at the controversy and recommended you block me.
• The dispute with Iantresman was ongoing for more than a year, but it was not about the Eric Lerner article. Check the links I made on your talkpage for more. This is illustrative of the problems I have with your advocacy. You are not careful in your characterizations of history. It's very easy to check because everything at Misplaced Pages is logged.
• I reiterate that the blog in question is a perfectly legitimate source which you could have read about on the talkpage. The Preposterous Universe is written by a well-respected research astronomer at the University of Chicago. It is not an inappropriate inclusion especially because the scientific community basically ignores Eric otherwise (by his own admission according to a letter he signed).
• There is no original research on Eric Lerner's page. Absolutely none. I challenge you to point to some.
• If you wanted, I would have gladly provided you with the context for the links that Ian made. With context, none of the edits are evidence of POV-pushing, original research (I have no idea where that came from), nor edit-warring beyond the scope of this particular content dispute (see next bullet point).
• For edit warring, there is a strict 3RR policy meant to address it as well as dispute resolution processes. You did not refer the conflict to any of these before blocking. I take this to be a punative action then targetted specifically against me.
• I believe that "Edit warring" is in this case, strongly in the eye of the beholder. The conflict between myself, User:Iantresman and User:Elerner to me is a content dispute and I regard the edits by User:Elerner to be in conflict with WP:AUTO (an issue totally ignored by you). You'll also note that Iantresman hasn't offered an edit to the article since 19 July.
• I see no attempt by you to discuss what the dispute was about on the talkpage of the article in question.

I am saddened that you will not offer an apology. This is beginning to remind me a lot of the Ed Poor case.

--ScienceApologist 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

On the surface, this block appears questionable; I would'nt have imposed it myself. That said, I am concerned by SA's seeming mission to discredit Plasma cosmology (in general) in favour of the Hot Big Bang Model. Last I've heard, Hannes Alfvén was not a psuedoscientist, and HBB Modelers are still struggling to account for Dark Matter. Perhaps I missed crucial new findings that would work toward diminishing from the criticisms waged by many PCs that it remains yet another convinient HBBM deus ex machina, one ostensibly in service of deus... El_C 23:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hannes Alfvén is most certainly not the issue. Eric Lerner is the issue. I don't know where exactly El C is getting his sources from, but dark matter is a feature, not a problem to account for in the Big Bang. Most of the PC criticisms stem from the early 1990s (as outlined in the non-standard cosmology page) before precision measurements, redshift surveys, and supernovae observations honed us in on ΛCDM. But this is hardly the point. Discrediting PC is only done using verifiable, well-cited, and reliable sources. It isn't done by myself or any other editor. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

DM (cold or otherwise) appears to remain a pretty convinient presuppository feature of the Model, a feature which, since it dosen't interact with anything in the material universe, cannot (yet?) be conclusively proven to exist, but just happens to fit perfectly with HBBM, accounting for the vast majority of mass in the universe. Criticisms of theistic-driven agenda have no basis, you're saying? El_C 00:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

El C, you're out of contact with the workings of science. Physics will setup models giving formula which are in agreement with current observations and hopefully predict future observerations. ΛCDM has an excellent score in this disciplines. The question of "why" is left to theists, kooks and popular science journalists. Newton started this trend, you know? --06:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That dosen't really respond to anything that I say. Regardless, I do think that it is too early stage of human development to speak so confidently about the history/origin of the universe, as gospel truth. El_C 07:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No scientific theory is gospel truth, that's your misunderstanding. But it has to be usefull. That's the difference between successfull theories and the trash heap of refuted oned. --Pjacobi 07:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You confuse how I nuance the manner in which the model is pushed (i.e. you won't get any grant money if you don't pledge to it) to a fundamental misunderstanding of how scientific models work. That is a misunderstanding. Many models can have useful applications but that does not mean that the theory should override all other attempts at explanation. Discounting the ideological impetus behind the HBBM strikes me as rather naive. El_C 19:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Getting back to the point

Why is this thread about content? This is supposed to be about administrator actions on the basis of the information available at the time. Shell's actions were entirely reasonable when s/he had an editor (who it turns out is experienced enough to have known better) casting aside his/her express concerns and plunging on regardless.

As it happens, I entirely agree with ScienceApologist's arguments about why the blogger is worth listening to and why a generalist book review is not a guide to good science. And I can understand that he was heavily engaged in the article and annoyed by being asked to justify his actions. None of which makes it OK to blow off an admin trying to deal with a legitimate concern. If SA had paused in his editing while explaining to Shell: or, better, elucidated the arguments in the article for the benefit of Jo Reader (I follow the blog link and see "Posted by Sean". Great, who he?), we'd all be winners. In fact, maybe the article can still have such an elucidation. So can we all stop yelling and go home now? And have the content dispute on the article talk page? Y'all drive safely, now :-) JackyR | Talk 15:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Law of unintended consequences

User:Elerner is back rewriting his biography here at Misplaced Pages. I tried to illustrate the conundrum here. The actions of this administrator has definitely made the conflict more complicated and protracted, in my opinion. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply by Eric Lerner

As the subject of this attack by Science Apologist(Joshua Schroeder), I think I need to comment. I am also requesting that SA not only be blocked from my article, but that the article is again protected in the same version that it was formerly protected...

The issue here is that SA is accusing me of lying and using false information to do it. I was a Visiting Astronomer at ESO in February 2006. I have so stated in several places. Not a big deal, but a fact.

SA has repeatedly reverted this fact on my wiki entry to state that I was invited by a friend to visit ESO, a completely different thing. If that were true, which someone relying on Misplaced Pages would believe, then my claiming that I was a Visiting Astronomer is a lie. In science, faking credentials is a particularly bad thing to do. But that is what anyone using Misplaced Pages will conclude about me, if SA’s edits are allowed to stand.

Of course this is just the most glaring example. As Shell points out, a lot of SA’s edits are extremely biased and, as on many, many other entries, he defends them by having seemingly unlimited time to revert continuously. This includes eliminating the views of James Van Allen, who I assume you all are familiar with.

SA’s behavior toward me is not exceptional. If you look at his user page he has been involved in a vast number of revert wars, all with the aim of purging Misplaced Pages of anything he deems unorthodox, including the views of scientists as distinguished as Halton Arp. (If you don’t know who he is, just consult any galactic atlas and see all the galaxies named Arp220 or Arp- some- other- number).

Here is just one random example:

'Comment by User:DavidRussell'

ScienceApologist consistently deletes any passages that refer to alternative interpretations of redshift. He then falsely claims that the redshift articles which already exist cover concepts that he has in fact deleted in previous attempts.

"Another critique of cosmological redshift also came from Halton C. Arp, who continues to find empirical support in the existence of apparently connected objects with very different redshifts. Arp has interpreted these connections to mean that these objects are in fact physically connected. He has further hypothesized that the higher redshift objects are ejected from the lower redshift objects - which are usually active galactic nuclei (AGN)- and that the large observed redshifts of these "ejected" objects is dominated by a non-cosmological (intrinsic) component. Conventional cosmological models regard these as chance alignments and Arp's hypothesis has very few supporters within the research community."

ScienceApologist (as Joshua Schroeder) saw fit to delete this passage claiming that it was not NPOV.

Comment by Jon

The infuriatingly stubborn and irrational behaviour of Joshua Schroeder is pretty much the principal reason I can't be bothered participating in Misplaced Pages much these days.

A random example from SA’s talk page

Uncivil

This edit: "People who parade about pseudoscience in place of actual science are irrational" is insulting and degrading. Please have some civility and stop reverting this article in contrast to the talk page. Bastique▼parler voir 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, SA’s behavior is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages .Elerner 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

And in Misplaced Pages's opinion, you should not be editing/edit-warring an article about you. See WP:AUTO. Guettarda 00:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he was not aware of WP:AUTO. Clearly, it's best that he restricts himself to the talk page (though he could appeal to Office, I suppose). The "visiting astronomer" issue does seem to merit a closer look. El_C 00:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Good grief, a member of Arbcom thinks blocking Giano for mild incivility to a major troll is a good idea last month, and now SA has been blocked for his usual diligent thankless work on science articles, on the word of a known POV pusher and this is supported by someone violating AUTO, and we're supposed to think this makes it legit? No wonder good editors are sometimes scarce around here. Minor apologies for the ascerbic tone... One puppy's opinion, your mileage may vary. KillerChihuahua 00:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since when is Lar a "major troll"? Metamagician3000 10:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Truth be known, I'm a science apologist, triumphalist, erm, supporter, too! Go science! Still, this dosen't seem so clear-cut yet. El_C 00:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite agree, El_C, but this was surely not a case for blocking. KillerChihuahua 01:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Shell appears to have had some reservations and offered other admins to unblock if they so choose. FM felt it warranted unblocking and I take no issue with his decision as I trust his judgment. The blocking is in the past, I hope. El_C 01:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

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