Misplaced Pages talk:Vandalism

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Editor problem?

There is someone going around deleting content from articles that mentions a ranking on a list (linked to another article about the ranking), because they feel the list is biased. I'm of the opinion, that if they think that, they should bring it up and discuss it on the list's talk page. The fact that these things were ranked by this list (which is clearly stated in each article - this isn't the definative list, it's just one ranking) is a fact, not opinion. The articles don't purport to say that the one ranking is the true ranking, it's merely a note of interest. Anyhoo, this person is going around deleting any mention of this ranking in every article. I mentioned it on their talk page, and they went about reverting the one re-add I did (at the time I only knew of one article they were doing it to). I then posted again in their talk page, and they again reverted the article. I've posted a 'please do not delete' vandalism warning tag, but I fear that this person is going to continue to ignore it.

Their other edits on wikipedia seem to be fine and even constructive, but they are ignoring their talk page and continue to revert these edits (also demanding 'do not readd' in the comment for these edits, even before anyone has attempted to). I don't think that someone who's doing good editing on other articles deserves to be treated like someone who just goes around vandalizing every article they can find, but this person is ignoring attempts to communicate with them. I'm not sure what to do about it. I wouldn't have called this vandalism initially, but after ignoring two talk page attempts to contact them and ignoring the points I made in comment of re-adding the material, (and basically insulting me in the latest), I posted the mild vandalism warning. I'm guessing they will continue to ignore it, and may likely repeat deleting the comments. Thoughts? TheHYPO 11:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Sneaky vandalism

It seems like there are allot of page rewriting by some users here, who wanna claim things to a pro-Norwegian point of view with no sources. I'm pretty new here and don't know how things work like yet and deal with this kind of vandalism here on wikipedia. But on the article Normans the two Norwegian users Barend and Inge keep putting Norway in from no where. I have asked like 5 times in the discussion, what the sources are. I haven't got any answer, since there is no sources for it. Here the fake claiming started. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Normans&diff=27008966&oldid=26282705 Thanks --Comanche cph 13:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is slander at best. I view this entry as a personal attack as it is not based on facts and is made in order to discredit two editors trying to resolve the problems caused by User:Comanche cph. This user has been causing problems in articles which might not be considered main stream so a small number of wikipedians have been forced to face this users malicious behaviour. Any long term involvement by anyone is welcome (short peeps and comments have proven not to be effective)Inge 02:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not slander. Please stop talking about anything else than the subject. What is it you don't understand with this wikipedia. YOU NEED sources if you make edit's. And it seems like you don't have any. Since i have asked you two about them 10 times now. And that is called vandalism. --Comanche cph 07:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed section

I removed the following from the list of types of vandalism;

Bad faith reverts: Reverting most or all of a legitimate edit to an older version without explanation in the edit summary or anywhere else. An example is reverted by . This has a similar effect to partial blanking, but is much harder to detect on a diff to previous revision. It can go undetected for months, and there can be many intervening edits when it is detected, making it more time-consuming to reintegrate the affected edit. Editors are expected to explain reverts, and reverts with no edit summary, especially by new or anonymous users, are suspicious. (Even automated reverting tools, such as popups and the admins' rollback links, produce a default edit summary.)

This section was added by NeonMerlin and announced on this talk page about a month ago, but it seems to me to be in direct contradiction of the 'What vandalism is NOT' section. For instance, the example does not look like vandalism to me at all... it looks like a content dispute. Yes, people should use edit summaries... but not doing so isn't vandalism. Are we ready to say that any revert without an edit summary/explanation is vandalism and may be freely reverted in turn? Look for a vast increase in edit warring if we do. If we are going to say that edits without summaries are vandalism then we should just change the software to require edit summaries. --CBD 10:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I mostly agree with your edit, with the caveat that I think it waffles a bit too much about spam. We do need to be careful about what we call "vandalism", not just to avoid WP:BITE, but also because this page defines what WP:3RR exemptions are. Jkelly 17:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to word the spam one. As an example of what I was trying to avoid; suppose a user adds an external link to their 'Foobar Wiki' on the Misplaced Pages 'Foobar' article. As the policy was written, if someone felt such a link was "inappropriate" they could claim that it was vandalism and they should be able to revert at will. Yet the person adding it could very well legitimitely think that their Wiki's more extensive coverage of Foobar is something which should be mentioned... they might even be right. I guess it is the ambiguity of 'inappropriate' that bothers me. I've seen similar problems with interpretations of "provocative" on the 'image vandalism' section... users who don't like a particular picture of Ann Coulter (cover of Time as I recall) label it 'provocative' and thus claim reverting it is immune to 3RR limits. I was trying to get more precisely to the intent of the policy to avoid these 'interpretations'. What kind of things are "inappropriate" or "provocative" in reference to this policy. --CBD 11:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Unsure vandalism to Teresa Palmer

Looking at this page I am reasonable sure that there is some vandalism but I really am not certain what point the page should be reverted to. At the very least the External Link to "Misplaced Pages" site has been tampered with - I would do it bu I might merely complicate reverts of a more experienced editor. Cheers -- Nigel 11:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Besides the unfortunately typical lack of reliable sources for much of the article, I see no vandalism. I did see a bad IMDB link, which I fixed. Crum375 14:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

OK - I guess I looked at the pattern of editing from the IP address. First "afraid of moths" went in then "afraid of cats" in place of moths, that sort of thing combined with a number of changes to the "Quotes" bit made me suspicious. Thanks and regards -- Nigel 14:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Unvicil: minor edit

Spelling error on this page. "unvicil" should be changed to "uncivil". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wlmh65 (talk • contribs) .

Good eye, thanks for fixing it! --TeaDrinker 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me. Thanks. --CBD 18:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Repeated NPOV violation as vandalism

According to test5 template: "...and repeated and blatant violation of WP:NPOV are considered vandalism". I cannot find such a criterion for vandalism under WP:VAN#Types_of_vandalism. If we consider repeated NPOV violation as vandalism it should be added to the list, otherwise the template should be fixed, or the discrepancy explained. Thanks, Crum375 18:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the established policy that NPOV edits are not vandalism takes precedence and thus have edited the template. --CBD 18:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Removal of language stating that removing legitimate warnings from talk pages is prohibited and proposed reintroduction of such language

As I stated on Misplaced Pages talk:Removing warnings

There is supermajority support on this page for the belief that removing legitimate vandalism warnings either constitutes vandalism or a non-vandalism policy violation. With 6 established users supporting "Removing warnings is Vandalism", 13 established users supporting "Removing warnings is against policy but not Vandalism", 7 established users supporting "Removing warnings is discouraged but not against policy", and 1 established user supporting "Removing warnings is Great" we have 19 comments in favor of the removal of legitimate warnings being characterized as some type of policy violation, but only 8 comments opposed to characterizing such removals as policy violations.

I believe that 19 comments in favor of prohibiting the removal of legitimate warnings, but only 8 comments in favor of allow such removals indicates supermajority support for characterizing such removals as against policy, whether they are actually vandalism or not. Note that my edit did not actually characterize such removals as vandalism:

The above does not apply to the user's own Talk page, where users generally are permitted to remove and archive comments at their discretion, except in cases of legitimate warnings, which they are generally prohibited from removing, especially where the intention of the removal is to mislead other editors.

It is necessary to indicate that the removal of legitimate warnings is against policy since the preceding language "The above does not apply to the user's own Talk page, where users generally are permitted to remove and archive comments at their discretion" would otherwise provide express permission for such removals. John254 18:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The 'poll' you cite was closed / superceded by Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll and does not include the opinions of many others who have stated opposition on that page. In any case, a 21 to 6 majority (by your own numbers) saying that removing warnings is not vandalism seems to me an ironclad reason for not listing it on this page in the 'types of vandalism' section. Addendum: Also, please note that MANY things are 'against policy' without being vandalism or blockable. Policy requires NPOV and civility, but we don't block users for any infraction of those issues... and repeatedly reverting them is considered edit warring. Thus, the fact that a large number of people felt 'removing warnings' should be 'against policy' does not mean that such should be blockable... or infinitely revertable as per vandalism. --CBD 18:56, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Removing_warnings is the talk page for an active proposal. Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll is a poll that was never opened for comments. Since Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll contains only headers under which users would have submitted comments, but no actual comments, the statement that "The 'poll' you cite was closed / superceded by Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll and does not include the opinions of many others who have stated opposition on that page." is false. In marking Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll as rejected, Kim Bruning states that the proposal itself was not actually rejected (as the poll was never opened) in this edit summary. I do not believe that it is appropriate to cite literal falsehoods in defense of changes made to policy pages. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism presently contains language that characterizes certain non-vandalism misconduct as against policy:

However, note that removing comments without responding may be considered uncivil or become an issue for arbitration, especially where the intention of the removal is to conceal information (e.g. previous warnings) or mislead other editors.

Consequently, the argument that "a 21 to 6 majority (by your own numbers) saying that removing warnings is not vandalism seems to me an ironclad reason for not listing it on this page in the 'types of vandalism' section." is specious. John254 19:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The users who started the 'poll' you cite agreed to close it in favor of the other and said so... among other places in the box with the big 'i' at the top of THIS page. To me "closed / superceded" seems like an entirely accurate description of those facts rather than the 'literal falsehood' you call it. As to the, equally charming, "specious" comment... the 21 to 6 split on whether or not removing warnings is vandalism is simply a fact. Nothing specious about it. Further, 'against policy' is not the same as 'vandalism'. Vandalism is a blockable offense which may be reverted at whim. Making NPOV edits is "against policy" but is not blockable and reverting such will eventually result in a block on the person repeatedly removing the NPOV text. It is inappropriate to include removing warnings in the "Types of vandalism" given the absence of any consensus for that position. --CBD 19:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually the claim that "Making NPOV edits is 'against policy'" is quite literally false, as well. "Making POV edits is 'against policy'" would, in my opinion, be a far more accurate summary of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Indeed, the claim that "Making NPOV edits is 'against policy'" is a complete inversion of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, which in fact requires adherence to a neutral point of view, rather than prohibiting it. Furthermore, the statement "the 21 to 6 split on whether or not removing warnings is vandalism is simply a fact. Nothing specious about it." misrepresents my comments, in which I have argued that the claim that if removing legitimate warnings isn't actually vandalism, this would be an "ironclad reason for not listing it on this page in the 'types of vandalism' section" is specious since Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism includes language concerning other non-vandalism policy violations for clarification purposes. Finally, the relevant portion of the information box

The Talk about removing warnings is spread out over this page and getting hard to follow. It has been suggested to move the conversation about this issue to Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings and to eventually vote on Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll.

provides little, if any, support for the statement that "The users who started the 'poll' you cite agreed to close it in favor of the other and said so.", especially since Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll has yet to be opened for comments. John254 20:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed reintroduction of language stating that the removal of legitimate warnings from talk pages is prohibited

In light of the fact that no tenable arguments were made above against reintroduction of language stating that the removal of legitimate warnings from talk pages is prohibited, I am once again proposing that such language be reintroduced into the policy. John254 21:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It is reasonable that this be something that is wrong to do and opposed to at least SOME policy. I would prefer a separate policy on removing warnings, but since that policy does not exist, this policy is "ok". I am absolutely opposed to the idea that removing warnings quickly by the user is right. --Blue Tie 21:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with BlueTie, a separate policy would clarify this. The strongest argument against splitting it out is probably that it would be instruction creep. However in this case the overall amount of instruction would probably stay about the same? Until we agree to do that, I don't see any justification for anyone unilaterally changing the Vandalism policy that has been serving us well for a while. Gwernol 21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that it was originally added without discussion or consensus and has been disputed back and forth for 8 months? At the very least the issue of whether removing warnings is vandalism is controversial. Dragons flight 22:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

PS. There are people who dispute that it has served us well. Edit wars over warnings can itself be very disruptive. Dragons flight 22:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well it appears that the one data point we do have towards a consensus is 21:6 in favor of retaining it, so I'd argue that removing it requires some significant evidence of strong opposition, not just one editor deciding it should go. That said, I would welcome a proper debate on this to clarify it once and for all. Until we get that we're going to keep having this problem. Does anyone know why Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll stalled? Can it be restarted? The poll and (most importantly) its associated debate seems like what we need. Gwernol 22:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The poll, which I started by the way, stalled because I had to travel for work and was unavailable to do anything for about a month, and no one else took it up. When I got back, I was busy enough that I wasn't prepared to put time into what had largely become a defunct poll. I agree though that a definitive resolution to this issue is needed. Dragons flight 22:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Note that the 21:6 figure is in favour of not labelling it vandalism, so it doesn't belong here. It may belong elsewhere. JYolkowski // talk 22:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I misread the discussion. My apologies. In that case I agree it should not be included in the definition of vandalism until a consensus of editors here agree that it should. In this case I suggest there's an urgent need to start debating a new policy that prohibits the removal of legitimate talk page warnings. Gwernol 23:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'd argue instead that adding something to the policy in the face of strong opposition requires some sort of consensus... which does not exist for this change. Personally, I consider the repeated re-instatement of warnings a rather nasty form of edit-warring and harassment. It has certainly been used that way in several cases. The only 'benefit' to the practice is 'making it easier to see that the user has been warned before'... is the extra click required to check the talk page history really such a burden? If you want this then get the change proposal up and running again. I don't think it will pass consensus, and it shouldn't be part of the policy until it does. --CBD 23:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that since at least some version of this has been policy for 8 months it should not be just deleted immediately. I also think that this is important. The record of warnings needs to sit so that repeat offenders may be appropriately identified. --Blue Tie 00:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this concept was first introduced in February, and it has been removed repeatedly since then. And again, why can't you identify repeat offenders by clicking 'page history' to see if they have blanked out warnings? Especially if the edit summary says 'Warning - <whatever>'. We shouldn't be aggravating/harassing users to save ourselves a little effort. --CBD 00:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

As a user, I must say wouldn't feel 'aggravated/harassed' if I read that warnings must remain on the Talk page. And while looking at potential vandals and/or disruptive users' Talk pages, which unfortunately I am forced to do all too often, having the warnings displayed intact on their Talk page is an immense help. Yes, I could research their history, and often I do, but it would increase the workload. I prefer to spend that saved time and energy working on content or fighting more vandals. Thanks, Crum375 00:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue at stake on this page is whether the behaviour is vandalism. The definition of vandalism is something done in bad faith that harms the encyclopedia. Removing warnings, while it could be discouraged in some other policy, is neither. When people remove warnings, they are not trying to do something bad, nor do their actions actually harm the encyclopedia in any substantive way. As mentioned below, this probably should be taken to some other policy discussion page. JYolkowski // talk 02:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that 'vandalism' is not the best description. Maybe 'disruption' is better, and disruption is grounds for a block. But the bottom line is that it should not be acceptable for a user to remove a warning from his/her Talk page, as it would be misleading. Crum375 02:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ever? Whatever happened to forgive and forget? And do we treat newbie errors the same as intentional vandalism? What if the warning is itself given in error (or even maliciously)? It is not exactly a simple issue. Dragons flight 02:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - 'ever' is too long. Erroneous or malicious warnings can be easily reverted by any admin, maybe even any other neutral editor, so that should not be an issue. I would agree to a clemency rule that old warnings can be removed - open to suggestions - 1 year comes to mind. Crum375 03:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Undent. I am strongly opposed to the proposal. But whether or not this discussion moves on, it should be taken to the appropriate talk board. It doesn't belong on vandalism. Wjhonson 01:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree that it doesn't belong here. Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines (a guideline, not policy) is probably a better place. -- nae'blis 02:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There are two reason why it DOES belong here on this POLICY page:

It should be a policy not a guideline.
Warnings are given chiefly for vandalism and this pages talks about these warnings.

I am at a loss as to why anyone would object to this. Why give vandals such an advantage? However, I think 1 year is too long. I think 4 months or 6 months is enough, unless directed by an admin to preserve it for a longer time, up to a year, due to extenuating circumstances. --Blue Tie 07:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I object because vandals are the least of it. Seriously... most vandals don't bother to remove warnings from their page at all because they are just trying to do as much damage as they can before being blocked or casually messing things up. Many of them are actually seeking attention... they get a reaction and display it proudly. Those who do remove warnings inevitably get caught at it. What's the worst that can happen? They get away with one or two 'extra' incidents of vandalism because someone didn't check the talk page history?

On the other hand, contributing users are very likely to remove warnings because they are inherently embarassing/annoying to people who care about their positive image... especially in the case of biased and/or false warnings, which are entirely too common - the moreso since this new philosophy was introduced. I've seen too many cases of people placing false 'vandalism' warnings for things which are clearly content disputes, edit warring when the user tries to remove them, and then seeking (or personally enacting) a block for 'removing warnings'. It is harassment of the worst kind and ought to be a bannable offense rather than something endorsed by policy.

A minor convenience for vandal-fighters... which is also a major avenue for harassment of contributing users. Which makes it a huge net negative in my opinion. A possible compromise might be to make removal of warnings a blockable offense only for warnings about blatant vandalism... and making the placement of such for things which aren't blatant vandalism an equally blockable offense. Any way the impact could be restricted to true vandals would be fine with me, but to date it has been consistently used against contributors that various people disagreed with as an 'allowed' means of harassing them. --CBD 17:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with much of what you say, I feel that that having users remove warnings at will would vastly reduce our ability to keep poor behavior at bay. I include in 'poor behavior' anything from blatant vandalism to just plain rudeness. I see no major problem with getting an admin to remove an improperly issued warning from a user's talk page (with a corresponding warning to the originator of that improper warning). Perhaps we should specifically allow (or maybe we already do?) any neutral established editor to remove clear-cut inappropriate warnings, with an appropriate entry in the user's Talk page explaining the rationale for the removal. I fully agree that warnings in general will probably only tickle rather than impede real hardcore vandals, but there are a lot of editors for whom leaving the warnings in, at least for a defined period, will act as a useful deterrent, for the exact reasons you cite above. Crum375 17:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it can be a source of annoyance. Nevertheless, I think it is a good tool. I think that a petition to an admin should be appropriate to remove a warning before 4 or 6 months. I also think that spurious warnings should, in themselves, be considered disruption and if an admin finds that such a warning was used for that purpose, should take action against that perpetrator. On net, I do not think that it is a good idea to clear warnings off of user pages too quickbly by the user.--Blue Tie 18:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the CBDunkerson's statements that

I've seen too many cases of people placing false 'vandalism' warnings for things which are clearly content disputes, edit warring when the user tries to remove them, and then seeking (or personally enacting) a block for 'removing warnings'.

the policy as it is currently written clearly states that

removing legitimate warnings, especially with the intention of misleading other editors, can be disruptive and inappropriate behavior...

The removal of illegitimate warnings from talk pages, even by users from their own talk pages, does not violate the policy. Necessarily, users should exercise caution as to when they take it upon themselves to remove warnings from their own talk pages, as they must assume the risk that the warnings will later be found to be legitimate. In any case, "placing false 'vandalism' warnings for things which are clearly content disputes" is disruptive behavior, as is reapplying such warnings after a user removes them -- and the policy as currently written clearly does not endorse such disruption. I highly doubt that Misplaced Pages administrators actually "personally enact... block for removing vandalism warnings" to any significant extent. The fact that countervandalism tools, such as vandalism warnings, the policy against removing legitimate warnings, etc. can and have been misused for the purpose of disruption does not justify eliminating these tools, and thereby obstructing countervandalism efforts. John254 19:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Problem is that there'll often be disagreement as to whether a warning is legitimate or not. I have done quite a lot of vandal fighting in the past, and I have found that very few users will actually remove warning messages. I assume this is because most hardcore vandals are just trying to cause as much damage before they're blocked, and it doesn't usually occur to people who are just playing around to remove them. In the few cases in which people do, I think it makes sense to assume good faith that they're just trying to remove that record before moving on to more productive ventures. The few times in which I have attempted to enforce leaving such warnings on, it has just exacerbated the problem and has likely "actually damag the encyclopedia by driving away potential editors." (from this page). I think that checking talk page history is a small price to pay compared with turning off potential contributors. Realistically, vandalism is not such a huge problem that we need to emphasise countervandalism efforts at the expense of turning off new contributors. JYolkowski // talk 00:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. People insist all the time that things they perceive as NPOV and/or simple edit warring over phrasing are 'vandalism'. Saying, 'they are illegitimate so they can be removed' doesn't help the new user being harassed based on this policy who doesn't know that. In most cases they are just going to leave... or be so insulted that they become vandals. And even when attempts to keep warnings on talk pages are done in legitimate cases with the best of intentions it is inherently going to be insulting / aggravating for anyone who really wants to improve the encyclopedia. The benefits of it being easier to see past warnings are vastly outweighed by the drawbacks. --CBD 11:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Four Strikes?

Why does it take at least four warnings to ban someone? If the first two don't work, much less three, there usually are no constructive posts, and no reason to ask the person to stop a fourth time. Why not have three warnings, then a 24-hour ban, and then a permanent ban? Axeman89 18:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've seen plenty of cases where vandalism has continued past two warnings but stopped later. Can I prove this is because of the third and fourth warnings? No I can't, any more than you can prove that "if the first two don't work...there is no reason to ask a person to stop a fourth time". The basis of the four warnings is assume good faith. For all the pain of vandal hunting, I'd rather be in an environment where we err on the side of AGF. Many users start out by testing out their ability to edit - we encourage them to do this. After a few warnings they realize that's not productive and settle down to be good solid editors. Gwernol 18:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, it's very important to assume good faith in dealing with new contributors. Another reason why we typically give four warnings is that we (generally) don't block people punitively; we only block to prevent further problems. Based on my experiences, it's fairly common for someone to vandalize three or four pages and then give up. So, if someone's only vandalized three or four pages, it's certainly not clear whether they are going to cause further damage and hence warrant blocking. For the typical run-of-the-mill vandal, only after vandalizing five or six pages or so is it clear that they are both acting in bad faith and are likely going to continue vandalizing, thus warranting a block at that point. JYolkowski // talk 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

User talk pages

User:Paul Cyr has just used the following section to "warn" me not to remove material from my own talk page. The material I archived was a "warning" from User:Gnetwerker, posting as an anon IP, who is harassing me because I blocked some of his sockpuppet accounts. The section says:

"However, removing legitimate warnings especially with the intention of misleading other editors, can be disruptive and inappropriate behavior even though it is not specifically a form of vandalism. Removing comments without responding may be considered uncivil or become an issue for arbitration."

I think this section opens up opportunities for trolls to post "warnings," and then try to make trouble when the user removes them, and so I have moved it here, with a view to removing it entirely. Users are given a lot of leeway regarding what they have on their talk pages. Rare exceptions are when admins leave warnings that others admins need to see e.g. during a block, or because of abusive sockpuppetry. But these are the exceptions, not the rule. By and large, users are allowed to control the contents of their talk pages. SlimVirgin 04:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

See the sections three above and two above this one where this issue was recently discussed at length. The text you removed was actually a 'watered down' version of this 'do not remove warnings' philosophy. Removing it entirely works for me though. --CBD 00:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Reinsertion of removing legitimate warnings prohibition

The language removed from the policy by SlimVirgin, by its own terms, only prohibits "removing legitimate warnings". The removal of frivolous, disruptive warnings, is not prohibited by this language. The relevant edit by User:Paul Cyr appears to be based on an old version of Misplaced Pages:Vandalism which, at least when read literally, prohibited the removal of all warnings, whether legitimate, or not -- though I don't believe the removal of frivolous warnings was ever really vandalism, even under the old policy. Since User:Paul Cyr's actions are clearly not supported by the language removed from the policy by SlimVirgin, I fail to see how the removal of this language from the policy will dissuade either User:Paul Cyr or anyone else from engaging in the disruptive practice of issuing frivolous warnings.

Additionally, I note that Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_9#Template:wr.2C_wr2.2C_wr3.2C_wr4 indicates a clear consensus to keep the warning removal templates, and, by implication, the policy language that authorizes their use. John254 05:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, most of the people who oppose this process did not comment on that TfD. I didn't even know those templates existed... while the people who support them obviously do. If you had mentioned that TfD while it was still running (concurrent with our discussions above) I, and likely others, certainly would have opposed. There obviously is not a consensus for the philosophy behind the templates, so no... there is not "a clear consensus" for the templates - just a previous lack of knowledge that they existed. As to 'legitimate warnings'... User:Paul Cyr doubtless felt the warnings were 'legitimate'. It's a 'weasel word' which can be interpreted any way someone wants to. --CBD 11:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

TYPO

There's a grammatical error:

careful attention needs to be given to whether the new data or information is right or whether it is vandalism.

THE new data or information? I think the article is unnecessary here. Thanks! 202.156.6.54 08:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I checked the article again and it is actually correct. Sorry for the inconvenience... 202.156.6.54 09:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Example of misuse of 'removing warnings'

User:Dwain has for a long time routinely blanked his talk page rather than archiving it. Recently someone noticed this and declared it vandalism... which, of course, wasn't true. While blanking one's user talk page is not the 'preferred' method of cleaning up, it also is not vandalism or in and of itself a blockable offense. Note, there weren't even any 'warnings' on the page, just standard discussion. However, Dwain then also removed the 'warning' about the 'vandalism' of blanking his page... which led to a revert and a new warning about how 'removing warnings is vandalism' (which... also isn't true)... followed by a full scale edit war until Dwain got pissed off at this blatant harassment and became uncivil. This was not a vandal. This was a regular user who has never committed any vandalism, never been blocked, et cetera. Yet someone repeatedly made false accusations of vandalism against him and tried to enforce the display of those insults on his user talk page. That's harassment and abuse. and if people keep using this 'removing warnings' schtick in this way I'm gonna start handing down blocks. --CBD 11:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Another example... a user who had previously been welcomed removes a {{welcomenpov}} template from their page and gets hit with removing warnings. So now 'welcome' messages are warnings which have to be displayed (for at least a year according to some)... even if you have two of them. Again, this practice has minimal impact on vandals and hugely detrimental impact on contributors. Heck, I'd go so far as to say it probably increases vandalism. --CBD 12:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks CBD for pointing this out. I'm not proud that I got angry over this fiasco, but I couldn't believe things got so crazy at Misplaced Pages to make that policy as it was being suggested. I hope that yours is the official opinion on this subject. People can check my previous talk messages I'm not trying to hide anything but I don't care to archive every single message on the page either. Thanks for you opinion. Dwain 14:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about official, but there's a lot of discussion up-page about the inappropriateness of a blanket "you may not remove warnings" codicil to the vandalism policy. Consensus seems to be that it's not vandalism, isn't always a bad thing, and can be handled pretty much as in the past, on a case-by-case basis. -- nae'blis 14:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings, which appears to have been rejected. -- nae'blis 17:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is supermajority support on Misplaced Pages talk:Removing warnings for the belief that removing legitimate vandalism warnings either constitutes vandalism or a non-vandalism policy violation. With 7 established users supporting "Removing warnings is Vandalism", 14 established users supporting "Removing warnings is against policy but not Vandalism", 7 established users supporting "Removing warnings is discouraged but not against policy", and 1 established user supporting "Removing warnings is Great" we have 21 comments in favor of the removal of legitimate warnings being characterized as some type of policy violation, but only 8 comments opposed to characterizing such removals as policy violations. In light of these circumstances, it doesn't appear that Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings was actually rejected. John254 22:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

It certainly does not have consensus yet, either. -- nae'blis 04:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, there is absolute consensus that incivility is against policy... but that doesn't mean you can revert it at will or harass people who do it. You keep trying to say that people who felt it was 'against policy' to remove warnings should be counted with those who think that it should be treated as vandalism. That's not the case. More people were against treating removal of warnings as vandalism than were for it. The large group in the middle didn't really say one way or the other. And the proposal wasn't so much rejected as abandoned. Again... if you want this to be policy I'd suggest restarting the proposal or making a new one... because it isn't policy currently. --CBD 14:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it true that though most were against calling it vandalism, most were also against allowing them to be removed? If the vandalism policy is not the place for this restriction, what policy is the right policy? I would argue that removing them is NOT vandalism, but it is part of the vandalism policy that vandalism warnings should not be quickly removed. --Blue Tie 16:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Restoration of language prohibiting the removal of legitimate warnings

Every time this issue has been considered, there has been a consensus to prohibit the removal of legitimate warnings. Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_9#Template:wr.2C_wr2.2C_wr3.2C_wr4 shows such a consensus, as does Misplaced Pages talk:Removing warnings, as explained above. If Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_9#Template:wr.2C_wr2.2C_wr3.2C_wr4 was sufficiently publicized to retain the templates, then it was sufficiently publicized to retain the policy language that authorizes their use. Unless the closure of the TFD nomination of the warning removal templates is going to be reverted, it seems inconsistent to, on the one hand, retain the warning removal templates, but then to rewrite Misplaced Pages:Vandalism to prohibit the use of these very templates. Furthermore, since some comments in the poll contained in Misplaced Pages talk:Removing warnings are quite recent, it doesn't appear to be the case that "the proposal wasn't so much rejected as abandoned." Additionally, the current language prohibiting the removal of legitimate warnings specifically states that such removals are considered to be disruption, not vandalism. While I have opened Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll to provide more information about this issue, the best evidence currently available indicates that there is a consensus to prohibit the removal of legitimate warnings. John254 17:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above, it doesn't sound like there's consensus for the discussion of removing warnings on this specific page. As for the templates, they can be rewritten too. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings still seems to be in development stages, so it doesn't make sense to have something firm on a policy page such as this one. Finally, the word "legitimate" in the last sentence of your post is very problematic, as explained above. JYolkowski // talk 19:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Per your statement that "it doesn't sound like there's consensus for the discussion of removing warnings on this specific page." I am inserting the following clarifying language to avoid the implication that this policy grants express permission for the removal of legitimate warnings:

This policy does not discuss the question of whether users are permitted to remove legitimate warnings from their talk pages.

John254 19:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

You made national press

Misplaced Pages:Vandalism is reported in this Norwegian article in Dagbladet. Apparently "vandals have struck Misplaced Pages again", and the Misplaced Pages administration have decided to put a little lock icon on it so vandals cannot edit it. Or something. That's what you get from bored journalists who read The Inquirer on slow newsdays. Haakon 10:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The article tries to point out the irony of semiprotecting WP:VANDAL. -- Ec5618 10:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should point out the irony of journalists who try to create news, instead of just reporting it? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sprotected

This has been protected since July 2nd. Is this page to be permanently sprotected? If not, then perhaps it is time to unprotect it. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Keep semi-protected -- the danger of vandalism to the vandalism policy is high, and the value of allowing unregistered users to directly edit policy pages is minimal. John254 23:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- This is not a poll, but my question stands: is this to be a permanently semiprotected page? If so, then having a notice at the top that this is temporarily protected is not accurate. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be unprotected (maybe not right now though as I think it's attracted outside attention of late). If someone vandalizes it, just roll it back, no big deal. JYolkowski // talk 02:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with unprotection is that an unprotected vandalism policy would attract large quantities of vandalism, which would flood the page history with vandalism and reversions, thereby seriously reducing the value of the page history for other purposes. Additionally, high levels of vandalism would lead to numerous edit conflicts, the destruction of many legitimate edits in the course of reverting vandalism, and the display of the policy in vandalized states for significant portions of time. Furthermore, JYolkowski has offered no explanation whatsoever as to why unregistered users are likely to make legitimate contributions to this policy page. Indeed, a strong argument could be made that only established users who have achieved a certain level of familiarity with Misplaced Pages should directly edit policy pages. John254 14:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

~~Yes, this argument against IPs editing policy gets made quite a bit. It gets rejected. I think you can find it under perennial proposals on the village pump. 192.75.48.150 19:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)~~

It isn't under perennial proposals. I'm sure I've heard this before though, but I might be on drugs. 192.75.48.150 19:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You might be thinking of User:Kaiwen1/Vote to prohibit anonymous edits? -- nae'blis 20:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

That vote concerned whether all unregistered editing should be prohibited, not whether unregistered users should be permitted to edit the vandalism policy. John254 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I've unsprotected the page (but turned move protect on). Personally, I don't see vandalism on this page as a problem, because (1) it means that people aren't messing up the article space and (2) it makes it pretty obvious that they're acting in bad faith, so they can be blocked. Of course, if vandalism levels become huge, feel free to re-evaluate whether protection is needed. JYolkowski // talk 01:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I do "see vandalism on this page as a problem" because official policy pages are intended to provide guidance to users on the current consensus as to acceptable standards of conduct, not to serve as decoy pages that we can let vandals attack so "that people aren't messing up the article space... it pretty obvious that they're acting in bad faith, so they can be blocked". Should I create Misplaced Pages:Vandalism policy permanent semi-protection poll in order to show the consensus for re-semi-protecting this page? John254 05:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't create policy by polling. JYolkowski // talk 01:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Reinsertion of language concerning the removal of legitimate vandalism warnings

The results of Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll so far show a consensus for this language, as does Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_9#Template:wr.2C_wr2.2C_wr3.2C_wr4, as a result of which there was a strong consensus to retain the warning removal templates. A difficulty associated with waiting until Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll is closed to modify the policy is that there is no clear standard for determining when closure of the poll is permissible, and by whom it may be closed. Consequently, delaying the policy changes until the poll is closed could allow the language concerning the removal of legitimate vandalism warnings to be filibustered indefinitely, despite the existence of a clear consensus for its adoption. Note that Misplaced Pages:Voting is evil, which has been relied upon extensively in support of the claim that polls are a deficient means by which to determine consensus, is an essay, not a policy, and thus provides no policy support for the claim that a consensus cannot be recognized from a poll, and has Misplaced Pages:Voting is not evil as a counterpoint. Furthermore, there is no policy support for the claim that a currently existing consensus cannot be recognized from an open poll. In the event that the outcome of Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll shifts to undermine the current consensus, the policy can be updated in an appropriate manner. Finally, writing the current consensus on the removal of legitimate vandalism warnings into policy provides a clear statement of the current consensus, rather than entirely avoiding the question, thereby making the policy more informative. John254 15:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You are modifying existing policy based on an unfinished straw poll that shows no such consensus as yet. I do not support that, as the notice on the page clearly says that consensus must be reached before policy is changed. -- nae'blis 16:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

To characterize Misplaced Pages:Vandalism's current lack of language relating to the removal of legitimate vandalism warnings as "existing policy" stretches the term. To quote from Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll:

In January, a user added
Removing warnings: Removing vandalism warnings from one's talk page is also considered vandalism.
to WP:VAND. This statement and ones like it have subsequently been added, removed, and modified many times in the last several months to both WP:VAND and WP:TALK.

Explanation of removing warnings language

Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll does show a consensus for the inclusion of the following language in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism:

The removal of legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month is prohibited. If users remove legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month from their talk pages, the warnings may be restored and additional warnings about removing warnings added. Such restorations are an exception to the three revert rule. Users who repeatedly remove legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month from their talk pages may be blocked and may have their talk pages protected.

Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll currently contains 25 comments in favor of "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is always wrong", and 19 comments in favor of "Deleting valid, recently given vandalism warnings is wrong", which gives us 44 comments in favor of at least prohibiting the prohibiting the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings. By contrast "Deleting valid vandalism warnings related to ongoing disputes is wrong" currently only has two comments, "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is discouraged but should be tolerated" only has 4 comments, and "Deleting valid vandalism warnings is acceptable after reading said warning" has only 1 comment, which gives us only 7 comments in favor of allowing the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings under at least some circumstances. Thus, at least prohibiting the prohibiting the removal of valid, recently given vandalism warnings has the support of 86.3...% of the established users who have commented at Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this prohibition. Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll currently contains 28 comments in favor of "The warning should always be restored and an additional warning about removing warnings added" (in the case of inappropriate warning removal), and only 6 comments in favor of "Issue additional warnings when and if appropriate, but do not try to restore warnings that a user has deleted" with respect to vandalism warnings (there is one comment in this category that only applies to non-vandalism warnings.) Thus, "The warning should always be restored and an additional warning about removing warnings added" (in the case of inappropriate vandalism warning removal) has the support of 82.4...% of the established users who have commented at Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this language. With respect to the removal of vandalism warnings, Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll currently contains 20 comments in favor of "Repeatedly removing warnings should lead to blocks and/or talk page protection, even in the absence of other ongoing disputes". By contrast, with respect to vandalism warnings, the other categories on this topic only contain 6 comments. Thus, "Repeatedly removing warnings should lead to blocks and/or talk page protection, even in the absence of other ongoing disputes" (in the case of vandalism warnings) has the supoort of 76.9...% of the established users who have commented at Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll, which results in a consensus for this language. There is currently a clear consensus for including the above quoted language in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism, and the current removal of such language is against consensus. John254 20:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I also object to using a straw poll like this. Incidentally, the poll also shows an opinion that the poll itself is either evil or confusing. 192.75.48.150 19:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The statement "I also object to using a straw poll like this" does not show policy support for refusing to recognize the existence of any consensus in Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll. Moreover, most of the users who commented in the main sections of the poll did not comment in the "m:Polls are evil or Misplaced Pages:Voting is not evil?" section, so the outcome of this last section should not be construed to invalidate the consensus demonstrated in the previous sections. John254 05:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You can consider "poll evil" and "poll confusing" to be a global option applied to all setions, if you like. Or did you mean you are just going to discount me completely unless I can quote something at you telling you that this not the way to use a straw poll? 192.75.48.150 15:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Every time this issue has been considered, the result has been a consensus to prohibit the removal of legitimate warnings. The poll on Wikipedia_talk:Removing_warnings shows such a consensus, as does Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_9#Template:wr.2C_wr2.2C_wr3.2C_wr4, in which a strong consensus was reached to retain the warning removal templates (note that the templates for deletion discussion was not organized as a "poll"). Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll merely confirms this consensus, and refines the details. Of course, one could characterize all of the polls as "straw", and the templates for deletion discussion as irrelevant to the policy that authorizes the use of the warning removal templates -- but there would be no policy support for any of this. Creating specious reasons to reject every single piece of evidence that exists with respect to the consensus, and continuing to remove the language prohibiting the removal of legitimate, recently given vandalism warnings from Misplaced Pages:Vandalism would be editing a policy page against consensus. John254 15:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Restoration of consensus version of warning removal language

I have explained in great detail in the above section why the insertion of this warning removal language is supported by the clear consensus found in the poll conducted on Wikipedia_talk:Removing_warnings, the templates for deletion discussion for the warning removal templates, and Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll. Now, consider the following rewriting of the warning removal language

However, the removal from talk pages of legitimate warnings given within a recent time frame is discouraged. Users who remove such messages disruptively may be blocked and have their talk pages protected.

The use of the term "discouraged" instead of "prohibited" eviscerates the force and effect of the policy, by implying that we may not appreciate the removal of legitimate warnings, but that such removals don't actually violate the policy. The use of the term "within a recent time frame" instead of "within the last month" further divests the policy of ascertainable meaning and enforceable effect. Deleting the sentences "If users remove legitimate vandalism warnings given within the last month from their talk pages, the warnings may be restored and additional warnings about removing warnings added. Such restorations are an exception to the three revert rule." ignores the fact that Misplaced Pages:Removing warnings poll found a consensus for allowing the restoration of legitimate vandalism warnings. Finally, the use of "disruptively" in "Users who remove such messages disruptively may be blocked..." renders the sentence meaningless -- disruptive actions are, by definition, already blockable offenses. In essence, the rewritten warning removal language has been rendered almost completely meaningless, ineffective, and unenforceable. Modifying the consensus version of the warning removal language so as to render it meaningless and ineffective has the same practical effect as removing the consensus version. Now, considering that some of this rewriting of the language occurred in edits whose summaries did not refer to consensus at all, but merely advanced a position as to the claimed merits of the policy change , this rewriting of the policy veers perilously close to official policy vandalism, which the current policy still describes as follows:

Deleting or altering part of a Misplaced Pages official policy with which the vandal disagrees, without any attempt to seek consensus or recognize an existing consensus. Improving or clarifying policy wording in line with the clear existing consensus is not vandalism...

Please stop. John254 22:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Given that multiple people are removing the language and you're the only one restoring it, it certainly doesn't seem like there's a consensus. JYolkowski // talk 01:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the only contributor restoring the consensus language . John254 19:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

John, would that have anything to do with your appeal at CVU for backup, less than an hour earlier? I'm trying to assume good faith here but you're really railroading the issue... -- nae'blis 20:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that members of the Counter-Vandalism Unit want to see this policy reflect consensus just as much as I do. Please stop changing the policy language against consensus. John254 21:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the issue of whether your poll demonstrated a consensus, which I don't believe it did, the wording that you added also includes several things that were not mentioned in the poll at all, such as an exemption from the 3RR for editwarring on other users' talk pages. JYolkowski // talk 01:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll get all my thoughts together one day (-: but looking at Misplaced Pages talk:Removing warnings poll, it would seem that most of the people commenting there are against considering removing warnings to be generally wrong. Discussion is how we create policy, not by polling, so based on that I believe that the consensus is that removing warnings is acceptable. JYolkowski // talk 01:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no policy basis for the claim that a poll cannot indicate consensus or be used to make policy. John254 19:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:Similar

I created this template to serve as an alternative to Template:Imposter. It is more appropriate for use in cases when a username is created that is too similar to one of an existing user, but is not a blatant imposter or attack, as it is not accusatory.--Lorrainier 17:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I'm understanding your intent, but you might want to start off with "This username was blocked..." instead, if the intention is not to taint the user/editor/person behind the screen for a username they didn't know was going to be a problem. -- nae'blis 18:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A suggestion

I feel that two more vandal messages should be explicitly stated on the project page. For example, templates test 3a and test 4a do exist, but it is not being stated there. Only template test 2a is being stated. However, I acknowledge that some editors would find this a bit redundent as well. Any comments about this would be appreciated. --S iva1979 03:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Removing warnings

Given that there's a dispute as to whether the previous poll represents consensus, I think that we need to discuss this issue some more, since policy is created through discussion, not voting. Please discuss at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Removing warnings ... not here, the page is full enough already. JYolkowski // talk 22:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

spam-induced vandalism? how to deal with it?

I've stumbled on an IP address ( Special:Contributions/221.146.173.143 ) which tries to remove content from articles and paste some spam HTML. To me that seems to be vandalism but I couldn't find anything special in the vandalism article on how to deal with those characters. The talk page of that IP already lists a warning but that IP was responsible for subsequent edits.

What should be done in this case? Is there any policy which us, wikipedians, could use as a template? --Mecanismo | Talk 15:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the time edits like these are from open proxies and warnings are futile. See . List it at WP:OP (I have added this one). -- zzuuzz 15:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the above but use the "warn" templates in sequence (either spam or vandal) and report if they keep on. It solves the problem short term tho not long term. If warnings aren't left any following editor can only issue a first warning I guess (tho if I see a recent history I may go to second level or blatant vandal). Regards --Nigel 15:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

template:Spam4im might work. John254 18:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Not noticed that one (yes I know I should read it all!) - thanks John - --Nigel 18:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing "infamous examples"

This page lists "infamous examples" of vandals such as Willy on Wheels, Pelican shit etc. They should be removed per WP:DENY. If somebody moves pages to nonsense names it should be obvious and we don't need to glorify their names. That just encourages other vandals to become "infamous". Considering that many vandal pages have been deleted, this should be the next step. 195.188.152.12 10:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Making Mistakes

I think a section that would be of value, but I couldn't find, would be one containing the approach to handling mistakes. We all make them. A few "I'm sorry" templates, and a suggested method of retracting your "warnings" would be helpful.

For me personally, I just wrap my original warning in 'strikeout' tags and beg forgiveness.

Typically the best thing to do in these circumstances is to write something personalized, so IMHO I don't think a template would be of much help here. JYolkowski // talk 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point... good enough for inclusion in the article, no? I just would have found an paragraph along the lines of "If you make a mistake, that happens. Leave a personal appology on the users talk page. Everyone makes mistakes.

It's not that I'm in grade 3 and need a hug, it just would have saved me looking for the policy/templates myself. Fracture

01:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure, seems kind of like m:Instruction creep to me. JYolkowski // talk 01:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed policy changes

I Inappropriate content vandalism: placing irrelevant or barely-relevant images or templates on a page is vandalism. For instance, placing photos of elephants or dogs on a cat page is vandalism. Elephants are irrelevant to cats. Dogs are relevant only in a section about dog-cat relations. (these are not described in the current policy examples)

II Corrolary: Series Templates with language saying "part of the series on X" with a list of articles should only be applied to articles in said list. Other application is vandalism.

This will clarify a few cases that are currently not well covered. Thoughts?

Justforasecond 23:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Justfor, you can't just modify policies you don't like. We know you don't want the Christianity template on the J4J article and you want its placement to be declared vandalism. However, multiple editors have already tried to explain to you that the template is used on many Christianity articles not just those explicitly on the template and that even the word "series" on the template linked to the general Christianity category. Now please cut it out. JoshuaZ 01:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree Your attitude should change to conform to policies, not the other way around. drseudo (t) 01:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please don't personalize this. Misplaced Pages is a great project, but from time to time the policies need to evolve. After all, that's the point of a wiki vs a static website. I doubt many users would deny that placing photographs of elephants on pages about cats is vandalism. Justforasecond 02:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not "personalizing", it's pointing out to any new readers your utterly transparent motivation for your sudden concern, with enough of a hint so anyone unacquainted with your track record can look it up and be enlightened. --Calton | Talk 16:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Misplaced Pages." These issues sound more like content disputes than inarguably explicit bad-faith edits. There may be many situations where an image's relevance is disputable. Any argument, no matter how poor, that could be made that the image improves the article makes it non-vandalism. The second issue is even more contentious - for example, the list on the template may only list the most notable items. Many would argue, in full belief that they are improving the encyclopedia, that articles that were not considered notable enough to be on the list should still include the template. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 00:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, well certainly some images don't belong. Shouldn't this be noted as vandalism? If I include a template saying "Part of the series on Elephants" on the tiger page, shouldn't that be vandalism as well? Justforasecond 00:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism isn't so much about what edit you make, as is has to do with your intentions. Are you trying, in good faith, to improve the encyclopedia? Making absurd edits, like calling elephants tigers, probably not, but you may just be confused, which is why you get a {{test1}} warning instead of being labelled a vandal immediately, unless you get caught by someone with too much of a hair trigger. Adding a page that isn't on some specific list to a template? That doesn't seem to me to make its bad-faith nature inarguably explicit, at all, even if it's done repeatedly against opposition. -GTBacchus 00:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There are other explanations. Some contributors do not have English as their first language. Some may actually be contributing using a machine translator, which often deliver poor results. I remember seeing one online translator that allowed users to add to its dictionary database, making the online translator itself susceptible to vandalism. (This is not the fault of those using the translator and getting bad results.) Perhaps their brain glitched, and they forgot the difference between elephants and tigers. Or perhaps they were thinking of the predator-prey relationship between tigers and elephants. Unintentional nonsense is not vandalism. If they labelled a piece of porn as a tiger, that would probably be vandalism. (However, there is still a small chance of this confusion being based on some machine translation error. In that case, the true vandal might be someone who added a false entry to a user-contributed translation database, and never contributed to Misplaced Pages.) Or perhaps all they wanted to do was find out if they could really edit Misplaced Pages. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 02:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Widening the scope of what is considered vandalism is a Bad Idea. We don't need more editors accusing one another of vandalism for good faith attempts to make the encyclopedia better, no matter how wrong or misguided those attempts may be. Please see Misplaced Pages:On assuming good faith. -GTBacchus 00:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Compulsory registration proposal

I have come to the conclusion that only registered users should be able to edit Misplaced Pages, I'm sure this will help to reduce this irritating problem as most vandals are unregistered users. Does anyone agree? --Dovea 18:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Currently, that is absolutely not going to happen. Also, IPs do make substantial contributions to articles, and vandals can and do create accounts, which are more problematic than the easily identified and easily reverted IP vandalism that is mostly "I rule, gay" pranks. —Centrx→talk • 23:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That has been proposed many times, however, like Centrx says, its much easier to deal with vandals that are unregistered. Fresheneesz 00:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Most edits made by unregistered users are good edits; some even revert vandalism. I estimate that only around 20% of anonymous edits are vandalism, and those are easy enough to correct that there's no need to shut out the other 80%. -GTBacchus 01:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Add Template:policylist

I'd like to add Template:policylist to this page. I played with it, and it goes best if it is put in place of the vandalism template, and if that template is moved to right above the first header. Comments? Fresheneesz 22:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I have a problem with it, but why does it need to go here at all? --Blue Tie 23:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't go here or on any of the pages you are adding it to, except where there is a specific reason explained for certain few pages. —Centrx→talk • 00:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't it? -GTBacchus 00:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Users come here to find out what vandalism is and what to do about it. Verifiability and the other policies listed in the Article standards section of that template are useless for that purpose. The civility ones on first thought could be helpful, but on second thought they may actually make it appear that civility violations, or even POV pushing and the others in the content policies, is the same thing as vandalism and warrants dealing in the same way. Regardless, the proper place to inform users about how to distinguish vandalism is how it is currently done: In the text of this page with specific application to its distinction from vandalism. Users looking up policy do not need to be uselessly redirected everywhere else. We could put the dispute resolution template on here on WP:VAND, on WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, and on all the other pages currently in {{policylist}}, but it just complicates it for no purpose. If you look at where {{policylist}} is used, it is mostly used in user pages, for them to have a quick navigation to refer to important policies. It is also useful on Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment for example, where the content and civility policies are highly relevant to the users going there. It is not useful to have here on Misplaced Pages:Vandalism or on every policy page. —Centrx→talk • 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The policy list template should, ideally, be a good way of navigating all policy. I had absolutely no idea that there were anywhere near 42 different policies on wikipedia - and i've been editing for a year and a half. Policy and guideline organization have been a problem, as it is difficult for newer users to find the list of all the policies. Fresheneesz 00:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You might be interested in the proposal: Misplaced Pages:Policy council. -GTBacchus 01:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Users don't need to find all the policies. They need to edit encyclopedia articles. If they rub against policies, they will be told about them. If they want to find the policies, they are easy to find. If there are too many policies to navigate easily, it means they need to be reduced and merged; creating an indiscriminate, convoluted map for them does not actually help navigation at all. —Centrx→talk • 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's nice to group related policies together (e.g. WP:PROT and WP:SEMP and WP:RPP although the latter is a process). For the remainder, it's easiest to find the lot via CAT:P. I have no opinion either way on the template. >Radiant< 16:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What if you're a moron.

Hi, I think I'm smarter than most people but got left out of this wikipeida meme. Is it still vandalisim if you're just an idiot when you edit a page and can't spell or format things or figure out what to put in an article. I think all of this is very confusing. Template:Fasdl

No, mistakes aren't vandalism. In fact, they're the best way to learn. -GTBacchus 06:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

FlatOut aticle problem

I did found an article that the Vehicle List was removed and that is not all. I recently found that they replaced from "T" rated to "M" rated. That is not true. The game is never been rated "M". Someone is messing up the FlatOut article. Luckily, I managed to repair it. I don't know why would anyone edit so illegal. It is not right. Someone tell me what is going on. Best Gamer 13 September 2006

Talk Pages and Removal of Warnings

I agree with people who are concerned about this... in both directions. Many discussions taking place have not produced an agreed upon change. Until then, this should not be changed. I personally believe that warnings should be removable...after some period of time, but not right away. However, that perspective does not have concensus sufficient to change the policy.

There needs to be a better way to make policies. --Blue Tie 04:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We have an excellent way to make policies... first you get consensus that something is the right way to do things then you update the policy to say that. Not vice versa. As has been done here. There has never been consensus in favor of this 'harassment is ok if you can come up with some pretext to 'warn' the person about' concept. It was inserted into the policy without consensus and has been maintained there solely by edit warring. It isn't policy no matter how many times people keep re-adding it without consensus. And removing the facts that edit warring and harassment can get you blocked doesn't change them... those are long standing principles which do have consensus. --CBD 10:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems that there are some problems:

What is concensus? Does everyone agree? Everyone but one person? Everyone but two? Who is "everyone"?
Who decides when a concensus has been achieved?
How many people need to participate for a concensus to be achieved?
Are things grandfathered in and if later "generations" of wikipedians disagree it is really hard to change?

I also see that many elements of policy are added without discussion. And I have now read multiple methods for creating and updating policies - and it was admins who gave these descriptions. Some of them contradict each other. Some contradict the history of how things are on wikipedia:

If you do something and see others generally doing it, then write it up and record it.
Boldly edit and if no one disagrees, it becomes policy
The longer things have been established as policy, the less they should be altered
Hold a discussion on the talk page for the policy and get concensus
Hold a discussion on a separate page and get concensus
Take the discussion through the major public arenas for discussion
Do not vote

With regard to the history of this policy and concensus:

I do not see any discussion that led to concensus regarding the adoption of this document as a policy. Maybe its there, but I have looked and do not see it. Yet here it is, a policy.
I have looked for a discussion regarding a concensus on the existance and use of warnings or the inclusions of warnings in this policy. Maybe it is there, but I do not see it. Yet they are here, included and policy.
I observe most changes to this policy being simply added by one editor without discussion. This policy does not seem to be different from others in that regard. Yet one part of the policy added that way is invalid to you while the others are valid.
There is an on-going discussion regarding changing this element of the policy. It may have run out of steam without concensus but that has not been declared. (I am not sure it can ever declare concensus, as I have said previously).

So I think that the methods ... both described and historical, are not so clear.

In addition with these problems about making and changing policy, I feel you make wrong claims about this one:

You clalim that there was never concensus. I accept that you feel that way, but it depends upon how you define concensus. By my view, there has been a concensus. Not that it is exactly the same thing, but several polls taken showed support for prohibition from between 67% and 82% of the respondants.
You claim this policy is harrassment. I do not think so. I do believe that harassment may occur, and that would include harrassment through the misuse of this and other policies.
You claim it was maintained here solely by edit warring. I am convinced it was maintained here a long time without any edit warring. We have discussed this elsewhere.
You claim that things are not policy even though they are in the "official policy". To me, that is a nonsensical statement.
Yes, there are long standing principles that edit warring will get you banned, BUT reverts -- even multiple reverts -- are not always edit warring. You are trying to connect two things for which, in this context, there is no concensus for connection.

As an aside, isn't part of the problem, that warnings have been developed but no policy on their use and application has been developed? --Blue Tie 15:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Getting pages locked

How do you go about getting a page locked due to persistant vandalism? Sam Hayes 23:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Redirects

Why the hell does WP:DWV Redirect here? And furthermore, what's with the WP:-( ?--Koji Dude 00:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:DWV probably stands for "Dealing with vandalism". No comment on the sadface... -GTBacchus 00:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I guess that explains why Misplaced Pages:Dealing with vandalism also redirects here.--Koji Dude 00:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

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