Talk:Cary Grant - Misplaced Pages

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Cary Grant has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 15, 2016. (Reviewed version).

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Infobox

Aww jeez, not this again
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why should we not put an info box?Thenabster126 (talk) 23:30, 25 August 2016 (UTC) consensus re: no infobox We hope (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC) What Consensus are you referring to? Seems that there was support for restoring it.--JOJ 00:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC) While sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader". I disagree with including an infobox in this article because: (1) The box emphasizes unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, in competition with the WP:LEAD section, which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points in the article are already discussed in the Lead, or adequately discussed in the body of the article, the box is redundant. (3) It takes up valuable space at the top of the article and hampers the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, as updates are made to the articles but not reflected in the redundant info in the box, and they tend to draw more vandalism and fancruft than other parts of articles. (5) The infobox template creates a block of code at the top of the edit screen that discourages new editors from editing the article. (6) It discourages readers from reading the article. (7) It distracts editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. See also WP:DISINFOBOX. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC) To throw in my two cents, I think infoboxes are an important aspect of an article, and Grant seems to (randomly) be the only famous, impactful person on this entire site without one. I like looking at an infobox and instantly seeing age/spouses/etc instead of having to scroll through the entire article looking for one basic piece of information, which I know "discourages reading entire page" but people will read an article if they want, regardless of condensed info. TropicAces (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC) I don't wish to start a war here, but I agree that of all the well-developed articles on influential, well-known people I've seen on here, this seems to be the only one where the infobox was deliberately removed, and it just looks weird. The infoboxes have become a recognizable feature of Misplaced Pages, and while they do repeat some info from the main body of the article, they are also really helpful for giving a summary of the main points about a person (birth, death, birthplace, etc.) I hope this isn't the start of some movement to remove them all from articles of famous people who aren't in sports or politics, as doing this would discourage me from using Misplaced Pages because I don't want to have to read walls of text to get a short summary of a person with a lengthy article. TheBlinkster (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2017 (UTC) For your information, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, not to mention the many more articles listed at WP:FA that don't use infoboxes. But on behalf of other content creators everywhere, I do apologise for making you read the "walls of text" we have sweated blood and tears over. Cassianto 22:41, 27 January 2017 (UTC) Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a useful tool to obtain information, and a feature that makes it easier and quicker to find basic information should be welcomed, not disparaged because then people don't read all the content. Many users of traditional encyclopedias for reference have used them to search for a particular fact or two, with the reading of the longer article an option if you wanted more in-depth information. Encyclopedias aren't about the reader appreciating the hard work of the content creator, but about presenting useful information in the forms in which it will be most useful, in my opinion. TheBlinkster (talk) 22:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC) Then maybe we should not bother at all then? Let's have a sodding infobox and be done with it. Cassianto 23:18, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Aww jeez, not this again

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Why should we not put an info box?Thenabster126 (talk) 23:30, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

consensus re: no infobox We hope (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

What Consensus are you referring to? Seems that there was support for restoring it.--JOJ 00:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

While sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader". I disagree with including an infobox in this article because: (1) The box emphasizes unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, in competition with the WP:LEAD section, which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points in the article are already discussed in the Lead, or adequately discussed in the body of the article, the box is redundant. (3) It takes up valuable space at the top of the article and hampers the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, as updates are made to the articles but not reflected in the redundant info in the box, and they tend to draw more vandalism and fancruft than other parts of articles. (5) The infobox template creates a block of code at the top of the edit screen that discourages new editors from editing the article. (6) It discourages readers from reading the article. (7) It distracts editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. See also WP:DISINFOBOX. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

To throw in my two cents, I think infoboxes are an important aspect of an article, and Grant seems to (randomly) be the only famous, impactful person on this entire site without one. I like looking at an infobox and instantly seeing age/spouses/etc instead of having to scroll through the entire article looking for one basic piece of information, which I know "discourages reading entire page" but people will read an article if they want, regardless of condensed info. TropicAces (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't wish to start a war here, but I agree that of all the well-developed articles on influential, well-known people I've seen on here, this seems to be the only one where the infobox was deliberately removed, and it just looks weird. The infoboxes have become a recognizable feature of Misplaced Pages, and while they do repeat some info from the main body of the article, they are also really helpful for giving a summary of the main points about a person (birth, death, birthplace, etc.) I hope this isn't the start of some movement to remove them all from articles of famous people who aren't in sports or politics, as doing this would discourage me from using Misplaced Pages because I don't want to have to read walls of text to get a short summary of a person with a lengthy article. TheBlinkster (talk) 22:09, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

For your information, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, not to mention the many more articles listed at WP:FA that don't use infoboxes. But on behalf of other content creators everywhere, I do apologise for making you read the "walls of text" we have sweated blood and tears over. Cassianto 22:41, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a useful tool to obtain information, and a feature that makes it easier and quicker to find basic information should be welcomed, not disparaged because then people don't read all the content. Many users of traditional encyclopedias for reference have used them to search for a particular fact or two, with the reading of the longer article an option if you wanted more in-depth information. Encyclopedias aren't about the reader appreciating the hard work of the content creator, but about presenting useful information in the forms in which it will be most useful, in my opinion. TheBlinkster (talk) 22:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Then maybe we should not bother at all then? Let's have a sodding infobox and be done with it. Cassianto 23:18, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Gay or bisexual

The article states that, "Grant lived with actor Randolph Scott off and on for 12 years, which several authors have claimed was a gay or bisexual relationship". The language is inappropriate. A relationship between two men may be a gay relationship, but because both participants are men it is by definition not a "bisexual" relationship. Ssven2, who reverted my correction of the article's language, mentions that "Women visited the place they were staying", but that fact is irrelevant, as the (alleged) relationship in question was between Grant and Scott, not the women. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:42, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that there is no such thing as a "bisexual relationship", unless, of course, it involves three people of mixed gender. The case here, I suspect, was that as well as sleeping with each other (allegedly) they were also intimate with people of the opposite sex. Cassianto 23:03, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

His clothing donated to charity after death

Both New York magazine and The Wall Street Journal reported that his clothing was donated discreetly to the poor and homeless after his death, which is in line with Jennifer working on homeless issues at a law firm before becoming an actress. The article currently says something different, that it went to celebrities and others. I think the article should be corrected on this point, as these are two very high quality sources. I will leave this to regular editors here to decide what to do. Thanks. 5Q5 (talk) 18:49, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Done. I decided to make the edit myself, adding a new sourced line. 5Q5 (talk) 13:20, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, but I've removed it because in my opinion, it adds nothing of value. Feel free to discuss, though, should you feel it particularly important to mention where Grant's clothes went to after his death. Cassianto 17:29, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Disagree My edit in the article providing high quality news media sources stating that Cary Grant's clothes were donated to the poor and homeless after his death was reverted by editor Cassianto who called it an "Uninteresting factoid not worthy of inclusion." I therefore wish to store the deleted line and reference here in protest because the line contradicts and corrects the claim currently in the article that is sourced to third party 1997 biographer Graham McCann (the book's copyright actually says 1996, Cary Grant: A Class Apart), who never communicated with Grant's daughter or wife when writing his book and who, according to this Misplaced Pages article, says his clothes were donated to "Frank Sinatra, Roderick Mann, Stanley Donen, Kirk Kerkorian and others." I could not verify this claim searching for these names in the book on books.google. Here is the "uninteresting" deleted line "not worthy of inclusion" (it could have been tweaked by any editor if necessary, as opposed to deletion):

The Wall Street Journal reported on August 24, 2016 in an interview with Jennifer Grant that she donated her father's clothing to charitable organizations and the homeless.

Binkley, Christina (24 August 2016). "The Strange Journey of Cary Grant's Suits". wsj.com. The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 18 January 2017. Today the clothing of celebrities goes to auction; the actor's daughter gave away his famously stylish wardrobe without anyone realizing. Excerpted also in New York magazine August 26, 2016.

Finally, I wish to express my position that this article currently suffers from a lack of credibility due its preference for poor quality sources, those being biographies by strangers and fan websites over mainstream news media interviews with Grant's daughter and wife. It therefore isn't worth my time to attempt future edits. The article simply cannot be trusted. Good day. 5Q5 (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

You can throw a tantrum as much as you like, your edit was not an improvement. It's as simple as that. Cassianto 18:49, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Citizenship date source reference

My edit in the article yesterday providing a high quality news media source for the year of 1942 was reverted by editor Ian Rose, who by said action prefers instead to use the unofficial fan website CaryGrant.net as the date source. I am therefore storing my reference here for the talk page archive in case anyone else questions the reliability of the fan website reference currently being used.

"Barbara Grant Jaynes and Robert Trachtenberg - Live Q&As transcript". washingtonpost.com. Washington Post. 26 May 2005. Retrieved 17 January 2017. Barbara Grant Jaynes: He lived in this country from when he was 16 years old. . . . He also became an American citizen in 1942. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) (Online Q&A session with Grant's wife and filmmaker Trachtenberg after the airing of the PBS American Masters documentary Cary Grant: A Class Apart.

Thanks. 5Q5 (talk) 12:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

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