Misplaced Pages

Overestimates my importance? Nah, I don't think so. But if anyone thoroughly examines what I've pointed to regarding you, they should see that you continuously engage reckless behavior, especially by disregarding the WP:Preserve policy. It's easy to see that you take removal of primary sources to the extreme. You also edit in ways that are clearly POV-motivated. Your WP:Edit warring and trying to WP:OWN articles is also tiresome. There is no advocacy going on at the Vegetarianism and Veganism articles, unless it's your advocacy. The Veganism article was mostly written by SlimVirgin, and she knows what she's doing. As for following me, do not insult my or others' intelligence by stating that you are randomly appearing at articles that I significantly edit. We both know that it's not true. The Human brain matter was certainly no coincidence. You were bitter that I highlighted your poor editing. You clearly stalked me to the Human brain article.

So I am stating it right now: If I see you pop up at yet another article that I significantly edit (like the Vagina article, for example), I will be starting a thread here specifically about your WP:Hounding. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

And given how we feel about each other, there is no logical reason for you to show up and start editing an article that I told you that am I working on. Unless, of course, that reason is to cause me distress (which WP:Hounding forbids). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Show me some talk page discussion where changes are explained, or when they are not. El_C 22:46, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Nothing? That's the thing about posting here (if you're lucky enough to get someone to listen), you have to do the legwork, or it doesn't work for neither of you. El_C 23:14, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

El_C, I pointed to talk page discussions above. In the Psychopathy discussions, for example, there are invalid claims of WP:Fringe. In the Vegetarianism discussion, there is indication that Petergstrom does not have a good grasp on sourcing issues. In that discussion, I also pointed to where he had misrepresented a source at the Veganism article. At the Insomnia talk page, I pointed out that he had recklessly removed relevant material. Jytdog restored some of it with better sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I've already commented at Talk:Psychopathy, Talk:Vegetarianism and Talk:Human brain. El_C 00:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Petergstom, stop calling Flyer22 "he/she/it". I shouldn't have to explain why calling a person "it" is demeaning. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

So far as I can see, he only did that in the first post, and has since then been correctly referring to her as "she". John Carter (talk) 23:29, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Still quite inappropriate and ideally would be struck. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It was done in this edit, this edit, this edit, and this edit. Some of these were additions to existing edits, but I don't care that much. Changing your post so that it adds "it" as a pronoun to refer to someone is pretty obnoxious. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:07, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree that that is needlessly inflammatory. If there's doubt, use s/he. El_C 00:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I personally prefer they. It's more formal when in doubt. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 00:16, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages allows users to report their gender in their preferences. A editor's gender is available by using (or simply checking in preview) the {{gender}} template and is shown on hover with Navigastion Popups. The fact that Flyer22 has declared her gendrer this way and mentions it in her user space ("I am female and was born in Florida.") makes Petergstrom's "he/she/it" jab that much more grating. Rebbing 01:55, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, they. You ask for evidence of harassment, and I gave it in the first post, if that is not sufficient "legwork" I am compiling more. The psychopathy discussion of fringe, was not supported by recent secondary sources, so yes it was an incorrect claim. The edits, however, were good. The removal of outdated crappy sources, and duplicates, were justified and still stand today. The veganism article, nothing was misrepresented. That would imply malicious and intentionally manipulating something to support a point-which was not done. I used "vegan population" instead of "vegan population in hong kong and india"(or some region like that). The rest of the dozens of edits were totally justified and still stand. The insomnia article is a different matter. Jytdog added NOTHING back with better sourcing, he wrote something COMPLETELY NEW. Not in the pathophysiology section, where I removed piles of garbage-in the CAUSE section, where he added a sentence that menopause may be associated with insomnia. Now onto the WP:OWN. If Flyers statement above on the vagina wikipedia page is anything, it is evidence of s/he attempting to WP:OWN a page. Flyer22 still has this mentality that everything I do is dictated by her actions-that is plain wrong. S/he needs to understand, that his/her impact on my life in nearly zero. Until today, I barely gave him/her a thought(except for the sock puppet accusation, which was quite rude). The bottomline is, that the following

1. sock puppetry accusations-WP:NPA Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence.
2. unnecessary removal-Unnecessary to remove a multi decade old, primary source? WP:MEDRS
3. incredibly self centered behavior-Borderline fanaticism, WP:CIVIL, WP:OWN
4. removal of relevant well sourced material-Vindictive behavior, WP:CIVIL

Are behaviors that don't seem to follow wiki policy on behavior. Together the accusations constitute some form of harassment, Petergstrom (talk) 00:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The only NPA mention is 1st link, which doesn't work for me. El_C 01:30, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The problem with you removing material is that you never keep the WP:Preserve policy in mind. Often, what you remove can be easily supported by tertiary and/or secondary sources. When you remove content like that, valuable content is lost. It is not the usual case that editors go searching through an article's edit history to see what was removed. Therefore, valuable content is commonly lost with removals like yours. I explained this to you at the Insomnia talk page.

You did misrepresent data at the Veganism article. Whether or not the misrepresentation was intentional, I explained how you did so at the Vegetarianism talk page.

I am not trying to WP:OWN any articles. I am trying to keep you from editing them recklessly. And I do not like to be followed to articles by editors who currently have a tempestuous relationship with me. See the distress part of WP:Hounding. I wanted to edit the Human brain article in peace. It is clearly a main article that I am focusing on. And yet you somehow thought it would be good to focus on it too? It makes no sense for you to pop up at the Vagina article either, especially since that article is put together quite well and will be nominated for WP:GA status soon enough. The only reason you would have for popping up at that article is because I pointed it out above and made it clear to you that I would not tolerate you following me to articles I am significantly working on.

I wish that I didn't have to continuously deal with people stalking me, especially after they've felt disgruntled because of some argument. But it is something I often have to deal with because of my stance on following rules like WP:NPOV accurately, and because the articles I edit tend to be contentious, and because I have busted so many socks. Yes, quite a few socks stalk me, whether as IPs or as new accounts. This is not paranoia on my part, as such stalkers or socks tend to claim. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:25, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

• The Editor Interaction Analyser is very useful here. Here you can see that the two editors have mutually edited 29 articles, and in practically all - 26 - cases Flyer22 Reborn has edited the article first. These include some very obscure articles. I can only assume from this data that Petergstrom (who let's not forget has only 1,495 articlespace edits in total) is indeed stalking Flyer22 Reborn to articles she has edited, and this needs to stop - NOW. Therefore (a) I suggest a one-way interaction ban (i.e. that Petergstrom cannot edit articles that Flyer22 Reborn has edited, including talk pages), and (b) Petergstrom may be subject to immediate blocking by any administrator if he should again follow her to an unrelated article. Black Kite (talk) 00:45, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Sweet, sweet legwork. I'm referring to Black Kite, with whom I tend to agree. 26 of 29 is, indeed, quite a disconcerting ratio(!). El_C 00:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Wow that is just ridiculous. I have edited hundreds of articles in neuroscience, psychology, and popular media. I like the walking dead. I like game of thrones. I'm interested in psychology, and neuroscience-particularly in the influence that prenatal hormones has on gendered behavior. I have edited many many articles in neuroscience and psychiatry area, particularly mood disorders, monoamines, and there is bound to be overlap, given the extent to which she edits. The fact that we have edited the same 29 articles(many of which he/she made only one or two edits a long time ago, that I would not have known about, and don't care about) does not indicate stalking. The fact that he/she has been on WP for years before me is also an explanation. An editor, who hangs out around a lot of the science/social science articles, and over a couple of years has made over a hundred thousand edits, is bound to have overlap with an editor with 1400 edits highly focused on the science/social science section. Petergstrom (talk) 00:53, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

• That is indeed a possibility (if it had not been, an administrator may have blocked you already). I am simply pointing out that following Flyer22 Reborn to any further pages that you have not previously edited may be looked upon very dimly indeed. Black Kite (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

(multiple e-c) I kind of have to agree with Petergstrom about the nature of the "interactions" here. It looks to me at least 13 of the articles listed are ones where the time difference between the two editors is over a year. If he were really stalking Flyer22Reborn, it would be really easy to spend a lot less work checking her edit history and making staling edits to articles she had edited more recently. Having said that, Petergstrom, you've already been advised about using "he/she" and told that Flyer is, in fact, a female. Try not to fall into the same problem so frequently, OK? I imagine Lassie got really fed up with that blasted Timmy brat for falling in the well as often as he apparently did, too, and repeating that mistake doesn't help your cause at all. John Carter (talk) 01:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a fair point. If the edits were months or years ago and then you show up recently, that can make sense. The question, then, is how closely to the actual edits overlap. El_C 01:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Am I stalking Jytdog (talk · contribs) here? Perhaps I am notoriously stalking Doc James (talk · contribs) too? If this tool is at all EVEN AN INDICATOR of harassment behavior, then I have literally stalked every prominent WP editor in the sciences area of WP, to an even more severe extent than my terribly atrocious stalking of flyer22 reborn. Ridiculous. I am really disappointed in WP right now. If this is what passes as "legwork".....this is sad. If you take note of this, and don't even comment on the actual evidence I presented, I have no idea what this board is forPetergstrom (talk) 01:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

We are still investigating. Best keep it relaxed as you can and avoid characterizations like "poor poor flyer22 reborn." El_C 01:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I've also made it clear that I've been through this many times.

If Petergstrom shows up at more articles I significantly edit (like the Vagina article), including articles that I have brought to WP:GA status, will that be a coincidence too? I think not. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

How soon after the dispute started picking up momentum did he show up at those articles? El_C 01:37, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

He waits a bit, like a week or two or so. I think he waits in order to divert attention from having followed me. But the following is clear to me either way. After I addressed him on his talk page about editing with a previous account, I knew that it would not be long before he started showing up to articles I have a significant interest in. After I pointed out that I was working on the Human brain article, I knew it would not be long before he started editing it. The predictability was easy because I've been through this type of thing countless times before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Let's be careful about basing conclusions about this editor's conduct upon what you have experienced with entirely different persons. Unless the person you suspect Petergstrom of being a sock of is one of those stalkers, your previous experiences really have no useful predictive power for this individual, and it's unfair to saddle him with a presumption of bad faith on that basis alone.

That said, there's some pretty compelling evidence here, considering his showing up at articles you have edited consistently after you have. But it's still all a little circumstantial; all of the articles I've seen mentioned here are pretty major articles and the fact that you edited them first could simply be a product of you having been on the project much longer. I come from a biopsychology background myself, for example and have edited most of those articles myself, if memory serves. So we need to parse this a little more cleanly. You say that Petergstrom has shown up on more than one occasion at certain articles about a week or two after engaging with you elsewhere. How many of these instances involve him undoing your work or otherwise putting himself in a position to engage with you directly, and has there even been a time where he was doing so on multiple articles concurrently? I'm highly suspicious here and I'm looking for the smoking gun that will let me support a 1-way IBAN, but I just need a little more. Snow 03:20, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Are you actually taking Flyer22's allegations(with no actual evidence) seriously, while blatantly ignoring the harassment she has posed, with her sock puppet allegation, and now this allegation? A user, with 240,000 edits, in the english wiki of 2 million articles, is going to have edited some major pages before a newer editor with 1400 edits, concentrated in the biopsychology, neuroscience, health area etc etc. I don't know how many times I have to say this:'I do not care about what flyer22 edits, or what she thinks, but I do care about being harassed. The only time where I have given her a second of thought, is due to her ridiculous allegations, which quite frankly, are annoying as hell. I want her behavior to be reigned in, so I can go back to making helpful contributions.Petergstrom (talk) 03:37, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't think anyone questions necessarily the problematic nature of some of the more recent edits, Flyer22Reborn, just indicating that some of the "interactions" with over a year lag time between them might not necessarily count for much. And I think that if there were broadened interactions hereafter, that would definitely be very credible evidence. John Carter (talk) 01:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, John Carter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I sincerely hope that this statement "And, yes, Petergstrom has been following Jytdog and Doc James too. But I think he's been following them more so to learn and to get their approval." is an attempt at being obnoxious, and not a reflection of your own thought process-something that would be very, very, very disturbing. The edits to the human brain article occurred after I went to the article in hopes of finding a quality, complete section, discussing the functions of the brain. I hoped to find the immediate functions, as well as from an evolutionary perspective. Instead I found the current sad section. The edits to the vegan and vegetarian articles were both after googling them to fact check a meme I was(no kidding) curious about. This is really getting to a ridiculous point. Flyer22 needs to reign in her behavior, which I clearly demonstrated above violates multiple wiki policies. Petergstrom (talk) 01:42, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Actually, speaking strictly for myself, I don't find much obnoxious in the comment at all. It would certainly be not unreasonable for a comparatively new editor (you've been here since October?) to try to edit in such a way as to generate negative reaction if such was required from senior editors. Kind of an informal "mentoring," maybe. There might be better ways to do it, admittedly, but I think I have seen a few other editors here do the same sort of thing. John Carter (talk) 01:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I began editing the vegan article on the 16th of january, long after the (regrettable) first encounter I had with Flyer22 on the psychopathy article at the beginning of december, after joining in late october, after spending most of november hanging around the PED/Adaptogen/MDD/CFS area. Petergstrom (talk) 01:46, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Your explanations are the similar to others claiming that they weren't stalking. In a short of amount of time, you showed up at the Psychopathy, Vegetarianism, Veganism and Human brain articles. No matter what you state, that is not a coincidence. And if you show up at more, I will have even more evidence of your stalking. As for my supposed violations, you do not understand the rules well; so I don't put much stock into your assertions of having violated the rules. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

You're only three days apart with the first one though; as for the second, that was quite a bit of (seemingly-pertinent) content you removed with your first edit... El_C 02:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

El_C, your reply is meant for Petergstrom, right? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes. El_C 03:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

If you cant accept the fact that psychopathy, edits, along with ASPD edits were due to the fact that I am interested in psychiatry(as evidenced by my hundreds of edits in that area), and that the veganism/vegetarian edits(to the cardiovascular effects of the diets nonetheless...hmmmmm what does that sound like? Stalking or perhaps the editing of an editor interested in that area of science....hmmmmm) were due to the finding of very biased statements of benefits, then I would have doubts about your WP:COMPETENCE, in particular the way you place such an importance of yourself in other peoples decision making----you have to understand that you aren't that important. I literally never gave you a second thought, after skimming over whatever you said to me. Petergstrom (talk) 01:59, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The title of this thread is "Harassment by User:Flyer22 Reborn", and yet, so far, what this thread shows is stalking by you. It has yet to show that I have been stalking or harassing you. So your understanding of the WP:Competence essay is also flawed. Follow me to more articles I am working on, and there will be a thread here on you in the future. Mostly likely, the near future. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Don't make me refer both of you to WP:DR, because I would do it. I am that bleeping crazy! El_C 02:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

El_C, conflict resolution relies on the flexibility of the persons involved in the conflict-if Flyer22's self importance refuses to be flexible, no amount of conflict resolution would help. Petergstrom (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

But it's fast becoming your only hope. El_C 03:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

No it has not shown any "stalking by me", it has shown nothing. I have, however, demonstrated the violating of multiple wiki policies by you. Petergstrom (talk) 02:10, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Let me give a more in depth example. Sepi333 and I edit the same obscure pages-due to overlapping interests, such as Dopaminergic pathways, motivation, Reward system etc etc. However, given that he has a healthy ego, he understands that this is not "stalking", but is rather an overlap of interests. However, he does throw out accusations of sock puppetry ("because he is frequently right" hurr durr durr), or stalking, because he has a healthy sense of ego. Petergstrom (talk) 02:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

What does any of this has to do with it fast becoming your only hope. You've been repeatedly asked to indent correctly here. El_C 23:45, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Since it's clear that you intend to keep following me to articles I am working on, we will see just what editors state in that future WP:ANI thread. Your WP:ANI thread is a bust.

And as for self-importance, nowhere do I assert my importance here. Others have stated that I am important to this site, and I could point to diff-links showing that. I do not let such compliments go to my head. Yes, I have contributed to many important areas on this site. Yes, many Wikipedians feel that I'm important to this site, as indicated by past comments on my talk page and emails. I accept that. You should too. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't even know how to feel...if anyone wants to know what its like to be laughing, disgusted and annoyed at the same time...hmu. Let's break this down

• Since it's clear that you intend to keep following me to articles I am working on, we will see just what editors state in that future WP:ANI thread.

• Clear from what? Clear from the mental gymnastics done by you, and your grandiose ego that just needs a stalker to feel good?

• Your WP:ANI thread is a bust.

• I wasn't aware it was over, but if it is, it seems that you might stop harassing me now

• And as for self-importance, nowhere do I assert my importance here.

• You are not wrong, you don't explicitly say it. However your behavior, does as I have pointed out many times.

• Others have stated that I am important to this site, and I could point to diff-links showing that. I do not let such compliments go to my head. Yes, I have contributed to many important areas on this site. Yes, many Wikipedians feel that I'm important to this site, as indicated by past comments on my talk page and emails. I accept that. You should too.

• This is not the self importance I am talking about. You are overestimating your impact on others. Way. Too. Much.

• I think he waits in order to divert attention from having followed me

• This screams to me the words "delusional", "obsessive", "paranoid", "grandiose". If you think anyone actually cares THAT much about you, your edits, and what you think of them, that is disturbing. No after I first interacted with you, I did not spend 6 hours straight thinking about you, reading your edit history, compiling a profile, in my room in my basement with tin foil over the windows, and a triple padlocked steel door. No, I did not spend the next week sitting in that room, with a whiteboard, and yarn linking edits and wikipages, thinking about the most effective strategy for subverting, and obfuscating. I did not set up thousands of dollars of computers, calculating my sinister plot, waiting to strike-waiting for the moment when....wait for it....I COULD DISRUPT SOME RANDOM EDITORS WIKIEDITING *maniacal laughter ensues*. Hell, I didn't even give you a second thought after skimming over whatever it was you wrote.Petergstrom (talk) 02:36, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

And yet more nonsense and personal attacks from you. Stating that you should accept that others find me important to this site is because of your constant need to state how unimportant you find me to be. Your talk page response about the hounding matter and your above commentary shows just how obsessed you are with stating how unimportant I supposedly am. And such comments could be categorized as coming from a place of insecurity or inferiority regarding your own edits. Some might even state that they come from a place of jealousy. And if they understand psychology like I do, they just might be right. Your comments also indicate that you are indeed the past editor I believe you to be. No matter. I've stated what I need to state. You have been warned. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:43, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Trolling and harassment (both of which Flyer22 has been a victim of) of editors doesn't take hours to plan, it takes minutes. Less if you've done it before. --NeilN 02:47, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

It cannot be that easy to do what you do. All I want, is for your behavior to stop. For your reckless accusations to stop. For you to understand that, no, I don't care about you, BUT I DO CARE ABOUT BEING HARASSED.' Petergstrom (talk) 02:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@NeilN: That is not what she indicated when she said "he waits in order to diver attention from having followed me". The belief that someone, a troll nonetheless, would take a week to avoid detection in their trolling, is crazy.Petergstrom (talk) 02:51, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

No, I can quite emphatically state that that notion is not "crazy". --NeilN 02:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

So you are telling me, NeilN, that you have met people...real human beings...that seriously have nothing better in their lives to do, than to single out a random editor of wikipedia pages, and to make disruptive edits to the pages, but doing so very slowly, and very secretively in an attempt to troll/stalk/harass them. That is sad. I enjoy editing wikipedia. I enjoy editing pages I have interest in. My edit history is evidence that I am here to edit, and until today, none of my editing was AT ALL influenced by Flyer22. However, her accusations of me being a sockpupper(unsubstantiated, which I have brought up many times, but has been ignored) as well as the unsubstantiated claims that I follow Flyer to articles, are annoying, and need to stop. If the admins agree that accusations of sock puppetry and harassment by flyer are ok, then until the annoyance outweighs the good of WP, I can just ignore it.Petergstrom (talk) 03:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I have witnessed the behavior you're describing more than once. I've even seen someone put significant effort into making a credible back-story so he could say wide-eyed: "But I'm obviously not a troll! Just look at my {comments,posts,edits}! I can't believe anyone would actually have nothing better to do with his life than to scheme against someone on the Internet!" Rebbing 03:11, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@Rebbing:, Really?? this was just a "backstory", so that I could get to my real intent of trolling? I read hundreds of papers so that I could "troll"? Really??? Really???? I cant even believe wikipedia right now. This is actually one of the saddest things...a website I had so much respect for....Really???? Really? There is not a a single SHRED, of evidence that suggests I give two damns about what Flyer edits or thinks. But I give real, tangible, credible evidence of harassment and it gets blown off? Really? I can't even express who ridiculous the whole thing is getting.Petergstrom (talk) 03:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

You misread my comment: I did not say you were a troll or that your contribution history was a sham. I merely voiced my observation—in rebuttal to your skepticism—that many have gone to extraordinary lengths to exact petty revenge. Please stifle your outrage; it is not adding any light to this situation. Rebbing 03:27, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

As can I. It doesn't even take any effort: one could flip through an editor's week-old contributions, watchlist an article with the intent of editing it the next time it pops up, or bookmark the page in a date folder. Trolls are anything but lazy. Rebbing 03:11, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Not an admin, although I've played with one on tv. One of the most main points between Misplaced Pages editors is to help make everyone's experience enjoyable, and not to try to make it less enjoyable. The recent edit, screaming the words, is pretty offensive, and probably should be walked back. Flyer22 Reborn is important to the site, and in some areas, very important. This is fact, not her boasting. So please, Petergrstrom, maybe rethink the pressure of defending your case if it goes into name calling to that extent. Misplaced Pages is a polite place, although I have been impolite to a couple of grandiose self-important complete azzwipe editors fine gentlemen of the realm. Let's make everyone's experience here a little better and wind-down some of this stuff before it flips into the really nasty get-up-and-go. Peace, love, and singing stuff about cats or sunrise's or something. Randy Kryn 02:57, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Well in one of my first encounters with a fine gentle(wo)man of the realm, I had to bold the point because nobody seemed to get it.Petergstrom (talk) 03:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Best we tone down the accusatory language and just see what can be worked out one article talk page at a time. El_C 03:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that the behaviour of either editor here has been stellar in any sense of the word. The "policy violations" are numerous on both sides; the multiple accusations of sockpuppetry but no diffs (not here at least) to link Petergstrom to any other editor by Flyer22reborn (ASPERSIONS) and the near-constant accusations of quite serious behavioural (not bad behaviour, but, the issues of self-aggrandizement, delusions, etc) problems from Petergstrom (NPA, CIVIL). This is cause enough for civility blocks to be handed out, though if I'm being direct, I am far more concerned with the near abusive nature of some of Peter's comments than I am with Flyer's sockpuppetry accusations. No more "you're mental" style comments, Peter, you've made quite enough of them. I am mildly surprised you haven't received at least a warning for them. The stalking claims, Flyer, are both difficult to prove and evidence is circumstantial at best; Peter makes a good point regarding the editor interaction anaylzer, it alone is evidence of jack diddly squat. You need to look at the pages concerned, the times of editing, a log of the page history, and individual edits themselves. The individual edit themselves are the best indicator for stalking because they alone form the basis of a pattern. The return claims of harassment by Peter are relatively unsubstantiated beyond referring to the concurrent stalking claim by Flyer. Other than that, I see zero harassment going in the direction of Peter. I want her behavior to be reigned in, so I can go back to making helpful contributions, there is a simple solution for this, just go do something productive and forget Flyer22 until or unless further issues arise. This thread is rapidly generating more heat than light. There is, however, no simple resolution for any competency issues that may exist and I profer no opinion on that point because ·I have limited competency myself on the topic areas of medicine, the human body and its functions, and psychology. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

(ec) I just want to point out that Flyer22 Reborn has indeed been very accurate in their detection of sockpuppetry. No one is perfect, of course, but Flyer22 has an extremely good batting average. I think that they perhaps might have waited to make an accusation until they had more evidence, but, given their record, their suspicions should afforded some weight, given the behavior of Petergstrom as described in this thread, especially the Editor Interaction Analyser data pointed out by Black Kite. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:16, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

So I've read above Beyond My Ken. My personal stance on an issue such as this is; if you don't have evidence, don't make accusations. I personally don't afford 'suspicions' any weight without a reason to do so. That reason doesn't have to be proof of sockpuppetry per se, but, it does have to be something more than a flat accusation. I agree, however, on the topic of Peter's behaviour being uncollaborative and uncivil. As for the EIA, as I said above, it alone is evidence of jack diddly squat. If a new editor and an old editor hold similar interests and edit within the same topic area they will overlap. Yes, there is a significant amount of overlap and yes, Flyer has been first to edit 26/29 pages. Of those however only 10 have less than one months time separating her and his edit, and of those all three of the pages he was first to edit are included; Gender inequality, gender inequality in the U.S. and Antisocial personality disorder. Now, basically that means that he's followed her to 7 out of 10 pages, and she's followed him to the other 3 - note; I do not mean followed as in stalked, but, as in came there after. So either he's seeking out pages she hasn't edited in months by going through her contributions history, or, alternatively, he's just happened across them at a later date. I'm going to AGF and say he's not sitting around wading through Flyer's contributions for hours just to make her miserable. If this is actually what's happening, then that's simply pitiful ... I have other adjectives for it as well, but, NPA/CIVIL. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:34, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Addendum; I should add, that the EIA is useful in stalking/hounding cases for raising red flags and directing a person where to look and perhaps identify obvious patterns. In this instance, however, I've found nothing unusual even outside of the medicine/human anatomy/human pyschology topic areas. I should also add that this has also come to my mind as well. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Mr rnddude, without addressing everything that you have stated since I feel that I have stated enough in this thread (both above and below), I am taking the time to note that it is usually the case that I do have evidence, but it may be that the evidence is not strong enough. WP:CheckUser wouldn't work in this case since the previous account is stale. It is not unusual for me to wait until I have more evidence. Like many editors have done, including administrators, I gave Petergstrom a chance to acknowledge that he has edited Misplaced Pages under a different account. When he denied it and started focusing on my block log (mischaracterizing it), I moved on, knowing full well that he would likely start to appear at articles that I significantly edit because of that sockpuppet inquiry on his talk page. I know that you likely feel that I should not have addressed the sock matter at all, but there have been cases where addressing a sock about his or her previous account resulted in the sock acknowledging that they are a sock. This includes cases I've been involved in. And I reiterate that I have been stalked a number of times before, and the stalking patterns are generally the same. They are the same so often that I currently make it clear on my user page that I won't even list my WP:GAs and WP:FAs there on my user page. When it comes to the Gender inequality and Antisocial personality disorder articles, I edited those first, as seen here and here. I did not significantly edit them, but they remained on my watchlist. I know that you state that you do not see a stalking pattern, and I accept that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:46, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

To shorten that - you had no evidence, you accused someone of being a sock without evidence, you accused them of stalking despite the fact they have a fairly small defined area of editing which overlaps yours (which could be seen *at the time* you accused them of being a sock) and think that because they eventually show up at an article (within their area of editing) you edited sometime in the past its evidence they are a sock/stalking you? This is not a case of 'not having enough evidence' this is a case of you being so far from being in possession of anything resembling evidence that its laughable. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

And that is an inaccurate characterization, for reasons I and others in this thread have made clear. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm... EIA must have gotten those two wrong in this case. I wonder why it lists Petergstrom as the first editor when it obviously has you editing it years ago... probably the timeline of the latest edits but it's still wrong. My apologies there Flyer22 Reborn, it would have done me well to dig that bit deeper. I looked at the thread on Peter's page where you; gave Petergstrom a chance to acknowledge that he has edited Misplaced Pages under a different account. I'm not going to harp on this because I've never had wikistalkers that harrassed me or been in any particularly difficult disputes, but, your approach is ... not one I'd recommend to anyone. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Just to follow up on my comment above: many people who edit Misplaced Pages for a long time develop a nose for sockpuppetry. Some have OK noses, some have good noses, and some have very good noses. Flyer22's nose for sockpuppetry happens to be very, very good. That doesn't mean that she is correct in this case - everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes - but it does mean that admins should (and some do) pay some attention when she voices a suspicion. I'd very much like to see the CU policy loosened up somewhat, so that editors with a good track record regarding sniffing out socks are given enough credence to allow a CU scan to be done (even without a named puppetmaster) without the "no fishing expeditions" rule being trotted out. If the editor starts being wrong a lot, that credence can be lost, but in the meantime we'll have retired some socks. Further, I think an exception should be made for CUing editors who exhibit general sock-like behavior, something that many users can detect. All of that can be done totally within WMF policies - it's the en.wiki community which has chosen to fetter CUs, not the Foundation, which is ironic since, as the biggest and most read of all the WMF encyclopedias, we're the one which needs the tools to crack down on socking, while other wikis are the ones with the more liberal rules. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:09, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe summarizing this will help. I come to the board, asking for help, due to harassment from Flyer22 Reborn. I notified her on her talk page, and provided evidence. I used he/she/it, and was reprimanded. She responded with allegations that I have been maliciously planning, and subverting attention in order to troll her. I state that that is ridiculously self centered, paranoid, and ridiculous. She accuses me of following her to the following articles

• Veganism
• Vegetarianism
• Psychopathy
• Insomnia

These articles receive thousands of views a day, and are relevant in the health and neuroscience area, that I have been editing significantly in since I started. We first encountered each other in the psychopathy article talk page-I removed poorly sourced material, and then asked about changing the article to reflect its fringe status, however I realized I did not have a quality secondary source, and that it would be OR, so I backed off. I continued to edit in areas related to neuroscience, psychology, etc etc. For some reason, Flyer22 accuses me of sock puppetry, a serious, rude and unsubstantiated claim. I move on. In my editing of fibromyalgia, the creation of functional somatic syndrome page, and edits to he biology of depression, I came across a link to insomnia. I had quite a bit of research, so I checked the insomnia page, and saw that the pathophysiology section was poorly outdated. I updated it. I saw something claiming major benefits from vegetarian diets, so I went to check if it was true, on the WP article I saw some pretty crazy claims too. So I did some research, found secondary sources, published recently in quality journals, and updated the article to reflect current consensus. While browsing in neuroscience, I find the human brain page to be terribly deficient in the "functions" section. I edit it. And then I get accused of following Flyer22 to articles. Her behavioral pattern of seeing malicious intent in everyday goings on is ridiculous, and even more so is the audacity she has to threaten someone with it. What is even worse, is that instead of finding an objective admin board, objective like I experienced with the fantastic editors(mostly) in the medicine section, I find Dark Kite showing "fantastic legwork", showing how Flyer22, with 240,000 edits, and I with 1500 overlap on some articles in my region of interest. Woah. Crazy? Not really. It is not even INDICATIVE of me giving two damns about what she edits(which I demonstrated by showing my overlap with other prolific editors in that area). However, nobody takes seriously the harassment posed by her, but they do take seriously her crazy claims, not based in reality. Summarized.Petergstrom (talk) 04:09, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps it's time the OP familiarize himself with the First Rule of Holes? John from Idegon (talk) 04:25, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Newcomer User:Soli58 has arrived on the scene (Contribs). El_C 04:55, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

{@El C: So is that it? Is this report done? So the harassment by Flyer22 I should just ignore? That can be done. And is there a consensus about Flyer22's allegations(with zero evidence)?Petergstrom (talk) 05:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

You failed to respond when I asked you about your non-working claimed-NPA link — and that question remains unanswered. No, you've failed to establish a clear pattern of harassment to my satisfaction. El_C 05:24, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh my god. I thought that it didn't work as in it was insufficient evidence! All this time??? Oh my god. I will fix it. Wow.Petergstrom (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

here it should work now. Now what about the counter allegations?Petergstrom (talk) 05:47, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

What is the personal attack? Asking if you're a sock? It's not the most goodfaith-assuming question, but I don't know if that rises to that level. El_C 05:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

• i've been pinged a few times and have been thinking. Thoughts:
  • if you look at Petergstrom's first edits from Oct 2016, they are not really a newbie's. (see here). and they were warned about edit warning almost right of the gate.
  • I encountered Petergstrom first at articles about health (their articles in that arena have been about neuro and psych topics) and their edits on each article have been extensive (big flurries of rewriting) and generally poor in sourcing and summarizing. Clearly has a strong interest in neuro/psych so I (and others) put a bunch of time into trying to teach them how to edit correctly on health topics... and at the rate they were editing this was essential. (you can see the dialogue in this old version of their talk page) Their initial responses were dismissive like this:: The content was sourced!! What are you talking about? and this: I did read it. I am not ignoring it, the sources are totally valid, stop reverting the edits.. And kept insisting that their extensive use of old/primary sources was fine. (diff, diff) They finally kinda sorta got it. Kinda. I have remained cautiously hopeful they would turn out to be solid members of the community.
  • Around that time they did some aggressive and badly reasoned editing at Performance-enhancing substance as you can see from its history -- aggressive reverts. There was an equally aggressive advocate on the other side who self-destructed finally. I happened to agree (mostly) with the direction Petergstrom wanted the article to go, but the behavior and reasoning were bad and aggressive (you can see that on the article talk page too) and got them their first block for edit warring.
  • their editing at MDMA and its talk page was so aggressive and unreasonable that I brought them to EWN, leading to a block: case is here. If you review their comments in that case, you can see that they misrepresented their own edits (and behavior) at that board, which was doubly troubling.
  • as is evident in the history of the Chronic pain article here, as recently as a couple of days ago they added a slew of COPYVIO content that had to be revdelled.

And their aggressive effort to prosecute this ANI and ignoring of feedback they are getting, is par for their WP history to date, and not promising. I am not too hopeful about their long term prospects to be productive. Which is what led me to post here.

All that said, I can't support Flyer's claim of stalking. Petergstrom has been editing religion and neuro/psych pretty consistently from the beginning and edits to the Brain article do not seem stalkerish to me.

Flyer tends to be accurate about socking but i have no real comments on that issue other than my initial one above, and that based on their behavior i wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

Petergstrom fwiw I recommend you walk away from this ANI case - you are not going to get the satisfaction you want - and instead concentrate on building high quality content (great MEDRS sources, summarized and not copied, accurately) and working better with others. Your hands are way too dirty for this case to get any traction. Jytdog (talk) 06:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Yea sounds fine to me. I will ignore Flyer22 for now.Petergstrom (talk) 06:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Great. please keep in mind the " and working better with others" part of what i wrote :) Jytdog (talk) 06:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I am currently focusing on patrolling and editing article content, and am no longer interested in this thread, but I wanted to go ahead and note that I did not state that Petergstrom followed me to the Insomnia article, which is an article I had only edited a few times. I mentioned the Insomnia article to explain why I view Petergstrom's style of editing to be problematic and my belief that he followed me to the Human brain article. I specifically mentioned the Human brain article on the Insomnia talk page when criticizing Petergstrom's deletion style. I did not mention it as an example of a good or great article. I mentioned that it is an article I am working on, and an example of an article that no one should hastily take a hacksaw to. It needs to be edited with care. I mentioned this despite knowing the likelihood that Petergstrom would follow me there. There are few Misplaced Pages articles of significant interest to me that I can edit without worrying about a lot of conflict. Editing that article was something that gave me peace because there were no big disputes going on there and I knew that I could focus on bringing the article to WP:GA level, like I had been meaning to do. The article is currently full-protected, and I hope to edit it with little conflict in the future. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I hear you. Jytdog (talk) 06:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

One more thing: When it comes to considering whether or not I am being stalked, I do carefully examine the matter; I don't solely base it on past experiences. The past experiences do, however, significantly aid my deductions. I have an overlap with Doc James and Jytdog too, but Doc James rarely gets involved with articles like Vegetarianism or Veganism, or sexual and gender topics, and Jytdog is editing some of the articles that I edit because either I asked him to or he saw past stalking matters related to me and decided to get involved. In addition to the aforementioned articles I noted that I significantly edit, I just noticed that Petergstrom has also recently focused on the Gender article. I have significant history with that article, and with other gender topics. Having some overlap with me is understandable, but when it's articles that I significantly edit, and across a number of different fields, I think I have a valid reason to be concerned. History shows that I do. I take being hounded very seriously and will not hesitate to bring the matter to WP:ANI if I feel that I have compelling evidence of being hounded. All that stated, I am looking to resolve the Human brain article dispute and will try not to inflame matters involving Petergstrom in the future. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I too do not want to escalate things anymore. I dont think there is anything more that I can say, other than I truly do not care about what you edit, and have no intent to hound or harass. Buuuuuuut.....all the stuff is in one field-gender is relavent in neuroscience and psychology. But that is beside the point. Bottom line is, I truly have never had, and never will have the desire to hound anyone. Petergstrom (talk) 08:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Experience shows that mature people who are interested in collaboration and the development of the encyclopedia are able to make complaints without the level of indignation seen in this case. If you are really interested in building content it might be an idea to focus on that, while engaging in any discussions on article talk pages in a constructive manner. And stop posting here unless it is to post new evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 09:20, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I would like to concur with others that User:Petergstrom's edits in the areas of medicine and religion have been extremely problematic. One can see that User:Petergstrom edits with an agenda, promoting a non-neutral point of view; for exaxmple, he attempted to add information to our articles about Jesus and Moses, saying that they both had paranoid schizophrenia (see Example 1, Example 2). On our article about Religiosity and intelligence, User:Petergstrom has inappropriately censored content that he just didn't like, possibly because it called into question his own POV--what's more troublesome is that he tried to conceal the nature of his edit by using a benign edit summary. This is part of a deeper problem concerning User:Petergstrom and their editing behaviour. At this time, a topic ban on articles relating to medicine and religion, broadly construed, is warranted.--Jobas (talk) 23:27, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I have no involvement in this particular situation but I should probably mention that the last time that I saw Flyer22 get accused of "Wikihounding with false sock puppetry accusations", her sock accusations were very much correct. DarkKnight2149 23:36, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Darkknight2149 by this you mean that Flyer's accusations were correct, no that the accusations against Flyer were. I'm asking because it's not 100% clear to me which one you mean. I'm guessing the former since you've linked an LTA case in which Flyer was significantly involved. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:15, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Mr rnddude I meant that the accusations that Flyer made were true, not the accusations against her. Sorry about the unintentional ambiguity in my statement. DarkKnight2149 02:35, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Still no response from User:Soli58. El_C 23:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Topic Ban for User:Petergstrom on articles pertaining to medicine and religion, broadly construed

• Support As mentioned by multiple editors above, User:Petergstrom has failed to adhere to WP:NPOV in the areas of medicine and religion, which is demonstrated by edits such as attempting to add false information to articles about historical religious figures, e.g. stating that Jesus and Moses had paranoid schizophrenia (see Example 1, Example 2). He has also censored information that might not support his personal POV, e.g. recent diff), he also ignored the Pew research source and decide to put a POV on atheism (see here recent diff). These issues, coupled with User:Petergstrom's hounding of User:Flyer22 Reborn warrant a topic ban on all articles pertaining to medicine and religion, broadly construed.--Jobas (talk) 23:39, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Jobas, the religion additions were when I first started--one source was not enough for what I wrote. They additions weren't "false". Secondly, the recent edits on the religion and intelligence articles are actually being pushed in the direction I was attempting to push it in before your edit war( relavent info, quality sourcing).Petergstrom (talk) 00:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support This user's edit history is very troublesome. Mistercontributer (talk) 00:57, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
• I'm not sure that religion needs to be included here, but I've been watching the medicine issues from afar for a while, and I'm leaning towards supporting a topic ban there. I'd like to hear from a few more editors before making up my mind. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:46, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Seeing that Petergstrom does seem to be seeking to do better, perhaps through mentoring, and that the SPI appears to have come up negative (alleged master and sock on different continents), I am now leaning oppose to a topic ban, with a strict understanding that WP:ROPE now applies. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for medicine only. I don't think we have a demonstration of contentious editing in on religion. I'm troubled by what I have read in this thread. The indignation and battle ground mentality exhibited by the OP is not encouraging.--Adam in MO Talk 04:31, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Adam in MO this user's editing in on religion is very troublesome as well, (see /search/?title=Jesus&diff=prev&oldid=747047573 Example 1, Example 2), (Example 3). Have a nice day.--Jobas (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I have viewed those links and I don't think that Peter is at the level of a topic ban yet. Bad edits don't warrant a topic ban. Bad edits and battle ground behavior certainly do. Do you have any evidence of the latter?--Adam in MO Talk 16:34, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Adam in MO I think it's bad edits and battle ground behavior, for example see here in Jesus article: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), and the user demonstrates here that they are aware of the consequences of edit warring. anther example is Ignatius of Loyola article, see here (1), (2), (3). also here in Moses article (1), (2), (3). It's just some examples.--Jobas (talk) 16:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

JobasThose are misguided edits from a new users. No one has presented any indication that the contentious editing is ongoing. Thanks for your input. I respectfully disagree.--Adam in MO Talk 22:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Adam in MO, no problems, Thanks and Have a nice day.--Jobas (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I would like to point out that, although early on I pretty much interpreted the policies in a way the community did not generally interpret them, I have actually made some pretty decent contributions in the neuro/psych area. I understand the my lack of desire to engage with other editors has been troublesome, but I am curious as to whether my past behavior is really indicative of a future where the pros are outweighed by the cons. Petergstrom (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support for ban on religion and likely medicine. Unfortunately, I had to intervene as a mediator on a few recent edit wars on the Religiosity and Intelligence page and was a bit disturbed by some of the recent edits the editor used such as when some compromise would have been the better choice during the edit war. I also found troubling that after being warned about violating the 3RR, the user deleted that information from their talk page . Also, when discussing a source on atheism and religion if it was acceptable, the language seemed quite aggressive and dismissive to others when it could have been charitable including remarks telling other editors that they should not edit religious pages because of them identifying with religion was POV pushing and conflict of interest on religious pages. On the 3RR noticeborad one of the edits even said "Thats 3RR, there is obviously a COI, given you user page. I don't want to have to talk this to admin board" , as reported by another editor User:Renzoy16. No editor should ever say to another editor those kinds of things. For medicine, it seems that the editor has been blocked twice for edit warring there too despite being on Misplaced Pages for only a few months. Perhaps this can be remedied if the behavior changes significantly, but it need not get this hot over religion topics.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 08:24, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - for all the troubling history, some of which I agree is extremely troubling, the editor in question hasn't even been here a full six months yet, at least under this name. If someone were willing to mentor him as per WP:MENTOR, it might be possible that his conduct might improve. Having said that, there does seem to be a very real issue of perhaps excessively high self-opinion regarding this editor, and if that were true it might well be that mentoring might be ineffective. John Carter (talk) 14:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

A CU was just performed and confirmed that I am unrelated to any of the accounts I was accused of operating. The behavioral "evidence" is weak at best.Petergstrom (talk) 16:50, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

"The behavioral evidence is weak at best" You don't talk like a newbie. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:13, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

And it is also, I think, hard to imagine a relatively new user so frequently expressing outrage regarding the conduct of others, as Petergstrom has repeatedly done here. Most newer editors I've encountered are much less familiar with all the details of our policies and guidelines, and on that basis have been much less likely to indulge in such expressions of outrage. And I think most newbies would be a lot less likely to use the abbreviation "CU' as Peter does above as opposed the full term. Most wouldn't be as familiar with the abbreviations, although a person with a history of sockpuppetry would probably know it all too well. John Carter (talk) 17:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I just came from viewing the CU page...that was how Jytdog abbreviated it, so that is how I abbreviate it....I can't believe I thought this would clear things up. Looks like no amount of evidence can change the preconceived opinions you guys have. I'm so done. Whatever.Petergstrom (talk) 17:55, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@Petergstrom: you will notice that I have actually indicated that I thought mentoring you might be useful as an alternative to sanctions. And thereafter you, on no basis whatsoever so far as I can see, accuse me of having preconceived notions. Your comment, if anything, demonstrates your own biases and apparent unwillingness to deal with criticism. While I thank you for your clarification, I also believe it reasonable to note that what may well be one of your most substantial problems, an unfortunately high opinion of yourself and your regularly making at best unwarranted incivil comments to others, seems to be continuing unabated, and that cannot reflect well for you. John Carter (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@John Carter: I am willing to be mentored. I am willing to work better with editors. But I currently don't see that happening right now, if, with very very limited evidence, the accusations of sock puppetry continue-with the constant threat of a ban looming, it is hard to work effectively. Petergstrom (talk) 18:59, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not actually sure I see "accusations of sockpuppetry." I see a statement from her that she might be collecting evidence for a sockpuppet investigation, which is rather a different matter entirely. There isn't a great deal anyone can do about editors doing such off-wiki - trust me on this as someone who has repeatedly been advised of collection of information against him by others. ;) On that basis, the "constant threat of a ban looming" also seems to be at least a bit of an overstatement. The best way to minimize any such risks might be to try to focus at least in the short term on some non-controversial articles and/or make a point of proposing changes on talk pages and getting support there before making them. There are a lot of WP:GNOME-like tasks which one could easily do to help make him more familiar with a broader range of content and other pages, which also might give that person a better grasp of "standard procedures" of a sort. And there are, presumably, a massive number of articles on books or authors in almost all topics which meet notability requirements but don't exist yet. Any such actions might be useful and probably less likely to lead to controversy. John Carter (talk) 00:54, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Bearing in mind that "CU is not magic pixie dust", I simply don't believe this is a new editor, which is the only argument that seemed acceptable to me for not imposing a topic ban. Given that, a topic ban is quite a reasonable sanction. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:13, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I actually see two proposed topic bans here, medicine and religion. Could you be a bit more specific about which proposal(s) you are supporting? John Carter (talk) 17:44, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I disagree, I see one topic ban in the proposal, "a topic ban on all articles pertaining to medicine and religion, broadly construed." Now some people may object to one part of it or the other, and if I had wanted to do so, I would have, but my !vote was on the proposal as originally stated. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:51, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

You're right, and my apologies. John Carter (talk) 18:52, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

No problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose ban - (conditional) *If* Petergstrom was sincere when he said "I am willing to be mentored. I am willing to work better with editors., and *if* both sockpuppet investigations are closed without showing abusive socking (it now appears that will be the result), and *if* a volunteer can be found to mentor him on behavioral and interaction issues raised above, then a ban should be postponed. Xenophrenic (talk) 21:13, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Tryptofish, Xenophrenic, and anyone else reading, the Petergstrom account being in a different continent does not mean that he is not Pass a Method. Keep in mind that Pass a Method was last identified in a sock investigation in 2014 and that it is now 2017. Because of statements by Pass a Method in the past, I considered that he had moved, which is why I noted that Petergstrom might be interested in having a CheckUser confirm that he is no longer in the United Kingdom. Sock investigations are not solely based on the CheckUser data; they are also based on the behavioral data. Sometimes solely on the behavioral data. See Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jdogno5/Archive for an example of a case where the CheckUser data was put ahead of the behavioral data and I then had to compile more behavioral data just to get the sock blocked. All that stated, if you believe that Petergstrom can be reformed, and it seems that you do, I hope that you are right. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Flyer22 – I hear you. I don't feel like I have really made up my mind about this, but I tend to think that this is a matter of WP:ROPE. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support limited-time topic bans while noting that I am WP:Involved with the blocked user whose sock Petergstorm is accused of being. I'm not convinced Flyer22 got the right master, but the user's claims to be a newbie haven't convinced me either. I support the medical topic ban based on Jytdog's report of interactions above, and the religion topic ban based on this edit war in which the user uses a tabloid source to add a new section immediately after the Lead retroactively diagnosing a Catholic saint with a psychotic disorder. (The material could have been appropriate with secondary sourcing further down in the article, but not in it's own "Mental health" section without lots of high quality sources.) Also per similar bizarre edit wars on Jesus and Moses ~Awilley (talk) 16:29, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
• Comment While User:Petergstrom is facing a topic ban on articles related to medicine and religion, broadly construed, he just continued edit warring on one of the same articles that brought him here! I think this demonstrates that he is unwilling to change and seek guidance. I therefore support a topic ban (and probably a block) because I think it's necessary for him to slow down.--Jobas (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• Just wanted to show the complete list of recent aggressive edits that were made by User:Petergstrom on the Religiosity and intelligence page (from February 2 2017 mainly and up to February 14 2017) . On February 2 2017, User:Petergstrom disregarded the warnings, by at least 2 editors, that he had violated the 3RR. When User:Renzoy16 made the following edit summary "Removed information is relevant; User:Petergstrom has crossed WP:3RR" User:Petergstrom reverted with the following edit summary "I took it to talk, nobody cares. In actuality you have crossed 3RR" and continued to revert despite being notified by User:Renzoy16 and User:Jobas already.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 03:15, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support my impression from what I find in this huge time-sink/thread is that this editor's behavior, if permitted to continue unchecked, will lead to more huge time-sink/threads on this page. I'm seeing far too much WP:IDHT and POV-pushing, and far too little respect for the viewpoints of others. Lepricavark (talk) 23:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
• Support based on recent history of remarkably unilateral changes to the Religiosity and intelligence page, a pattern of behavior which I seem to remember was also characteristic of PaM. John Carter (talk) 21:06, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
• Note: Further to Flyer's response to the Oppose (Conditional) above. this also appears to be a case where CU was taken over Behavioural.

• Support: Alongside the note above, Peter's response about taking it to talk and nobody caring? Rubbish. Why's he getting reverted if it's the case that nobody cares? Besides, why can't you move onto something else related to the topic while you wait for responses, I know pages that can take months for replies and don't complain! I think a Boomerang is in order. MM ('"HURRRR?) 19:25, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Sock investigation

For those wondering why I have called Petergstrom a sock or what evidence I have, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pass a Method. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:38, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I must give you props for the compilation of information on all of this. I am sure it took lots of time to collect. I also looked at Jytdog's comments on another sockpuppet investigation. I agree with Jytdog that the initial edits show some familiarity with how Misplaced Pages is used. Also the familiarity with some WP policy, including sort of frequent use of noticeborads - which most Wikipedians never really use, strikes me as not dealing with a someone new to wikipiedia. The edits mentioned by Flyer22 Reborn do show some similarity in style to some other past accounts such as the outlining style and similar interests in medicine and religion. I am inclining to agree that some sort of sockpuppetry may be at play. Normally, new editors learn some lesson after being blocked, but the recurrent blocking and alerting that has occurred from other editors seems to show experience with the process and also how to make a defense for it.Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 07:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

POV Investigation for Page, Massive Edits by Inlinetext, Possible COI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm requesting an investigation into significant, possible WP:COI edits made by user Inlinetext on the WP:BLP page Swami Nithyananda. This user has deleted significant portions of the article over the past month including properly sourced awards and publications sections, while leaving only a controversial Finance and Management section that sources Indian tabloid articles like this one. When discussing this with him on his personal talk page, he was initially accusatory, told me to "continue your edits to improve toxicology articles..." and then deleted my reply without proper response. He has now added "e-commerce site" to the primary description of the WP:BLP Swami Nithyananda article without a source. The summation of these factors, 1) significant content deletion 2) Talk issue 3) addition of his latest "e-commerce" edit, has lead me to believe that this user has possible WP:COI, and that the Swami Nithyananda article is now a WP:POV issue. DocTox (talk) 01:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Please evaluate (see WP:DUCK) the edits and user pages of User:Rurban23, User:Insight2010 and this user who are all interested in the BLP (and also toxicology). The "e-commerce site" description was already sourced in the body of the article to source and the reference doesn't need to be cited again in the lead section. There is already significant talk page consensue on the article's talk page about the content of the article concerning the removals which were mainly self sourced promotional puff like this. Inlinetext (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

What a way to make sure your edits prevail - by raising legitimacy questions on everyone speaking against you? It's a mighty convenient coincidence you found, but you can't side-step your own WP:COI by finger pointing. There is not even a working store on Swami Nithyananda's , and by "mostly self-sourced", you must mean that you deleted quality content as well? Your malicious intent is clear, and your logic is flawed and see-through. DocTox (talk) 04:03, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I see you have also not notified the above users on their talk page so that they are aware of the situation. Misplaced Pages has clear rules for tagging users on this page, as they do with citing sources. DocTox (talk) 22:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

There is a lot of other questionable conduct by this user. One of the first things he did was delete more than half of the well-written, properly sourced and non-controversial article Geodesics on an ellipsoid. He kept accusing the primary author of copyright violations, and eventually put a copyright violations tag on the article (making it unreadable). Just today he deleted more than half of another well-sourced, non-controversial article: Stanton Foundation. I opened a sock-puppet investigation of this user on January 28 because his choice of articles and editing style (for example, falsely claiming both original research and copyright violation) is very similar to banned users Crapscourge and Turnitinpro. Jrheller1 (talk) 02:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! And just to clarify, Jrheller1 is talking about User:Inlinetext. (To avoid confusion since Inlinetext accused ME of the WP:DUCK). My next concern is the complete destruction Inlinetext has done to the WP:BLP Swami Nithyananda article. Look at the 1 month history and you'll see he's done the same. Near complete deletion... and now addition of highly controversial opinions.

• It is not enough to disclose one's affiliations.

• COI editing is strongly discouraged on Misplaced Pages. It undermines public confidence, and it risks causing public embarrassment to the individuals being promoted. Editors with a COI cannot know whether or how much it has influenced their editing

• In addition, COI editors are generally advised not to edit affected articles directly, and to propose changes on talk pages instead.

• When large amounts of text are added by or on behalf of the article subject, the article has, in effect, been ghostwritten by the subject without the readers' knowledge. Responding volunteers should therefore carefully check the proposed text and sources. That an article has been expanded does not necessarily mean that it is better.

Needless to say the WMF Terms of Use require that community COI policies are to be invariably complied with in addition to ToU terms and conditions deprecating paid editing. Inlinetext (talk) 06:14, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@DocTox: As far as I can see you have made zero effort to engage in discussion on the article talk pages. This is a simple content dispute and it should go to the relevant talkpages. Inlinetext has followed the generally accepted edit procedures. As a side note, I really don't understand why people come here and do this type of stuff time and time again. Promotional editing is so easy to spot.--Adam in MO Talk 22:35, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Did you notice the very first interaction Inlinetext had with another user (Friyman)? Inlinetext accused Friyman of wanting to become an admin for profit. I linked a diff at the sockpuppet investigation page (I'll add it here too ). I think DocTox was wise to not try to discuss the article with Inlinetext after their initial conversation (in which Inlinetext told DocTox to not edit the Swami Nithyananda article). Is the "generally accepted edit procedure" going around and deleting more than half of well-written, well-sourced, non-controversial articles? I don't think that is what "bold" really means. Jrheller1 (talk) 03:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I have already rebutted your deliberate misinterpretaion of my remark over (here) because that user carried out 12 edits in 1 minute and when I queried him about it he rep(lied) that I had blanked the page. These are not well sourced articles but poorly sourced. In the case of Stanton Foundation where 'Jrheller1' repeatedly reverted me, the non-WP:RS citation technique used by the SPA was for "X" (a prominent donor agency) to pay money to "Y", then "Y" would self publish "X has indeed paid Y", and then "X" would cite "Y" on Misplaced Pages as proof that "X has paid Y". In any event, 'Jrheller1' could clarifiy how many other accounts he has/had before his first edit. Inlinetext (talk) 05:57, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Adamfinmo:I tried discussing it with Inlinetext on his talk page. He effectively told me to do something else with my time and then deleted the conversation without further reply. In any case, since he will not discuss, I will simply revert the edits he's made right now, since this seems to be the solution you suggest. DocTox (talk) 04:05, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@DocTox: You should discuss it on the article page. You won't be around here long if you continue to blatantly lie about other people's position like you did to me. I'm sure your edit warring block will come soon enough. Quack, quack, my friend.--Adam in MO Talk 04:07, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Adamfinmo: You can clearly see on Inlinetext talk page that I messaged him about it. You can also see that I also posted on the articles talk page as well. Where is the blatant lie? DocTox (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@DocTox: "...I will simply revert the edits he's made right now, since this seems to be the solution you suggest." I made no such suggestion, implicitly or otherwise. Your statement is simply a fabrication and a declaration to edit war. You simply lied. --Adam in MO Talk 05:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Conduct of Inlinetext is questionable, he just reverted a redirect to a WP:NOTNEWS article and never appearing on the talk. Despite the article has been redirected by multiple editors. I am sure he need to tone down a bit. D4iNa4 (talk) 06:11, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• Reply : The "multiple editor" not unsurprisingly being the subject of multiple sock-puppet investigations naming you ? Inlinetext (talk) 06:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
• Comment : Also, the redirect was incorrect RfD link and wrongly applied. Inlinetext (talk) 07:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

You must be WP:Gaming the system enough that you linked to a senseless SPI, makes me further enforce that you are simply disruptive with your regular edit warring and COI editing. D4iNa4 (talk) 08:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Athena1326 WP:NOTHERE

Athena1326 (already warned ) has repeatedly removed a cited criticism from the Noel Gallagher article (). On top of this, he/she has gutted from Oasis album article (What's the Story) Morning Glory? a well-referenced mention of the Gallagher brothers' celebrity wives helping to increase their public profiles (), and chopped cited text from the Slade article mentioning their influence on Oasis (). Basically, Athena1326's only purpose on Misplaced Pages is to deify Oasis and bandleader Noel Gallagher by removing material that suggests they were bolstered/influenced by others or have musical weaknesses.

Also, an IP (probable sock) continued Athena1326's agenda at Noel Gallagher today (). 2A02:C7F:8E16:8300:1194:4FC:48AD:A32E (talk) 15:09, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

"NOTHERE" is jargon that should be used sparingly.

There seems to be a content dispute here. Please discuss it at Talk:Noel_Gallagher#One_of_the_most_overrated.3F, which I have started up for you for this purpose. -- Hoary (talk) 09:09, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Exactly what I was about to say. "NOTHERE" means that someone does not intend to contribute constructively to Misplaced Pages; they're "not here" to build an encyclopedia. It carries negative connotations about an editor's intentions, not unlike labeling someone's edits vandalism or trolling. This is a content dispute, and when you have a disagreement with somebody, the best thing you can do is talk to them about it. Kurtis 11:01, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, although you say Athena1326 is "already warned", you did not warn this user that there was a discussion here. Neither did you warn the IP. (That's despite "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page" in bold lettering on an orange background when you edit here.) I've warned them both. -- Hoary (talk) 09:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Impersonation of User:BethNaught

User:Cfgvhbj is actively impersonating BethNaught at AfD. This could be a real doppleganger account, but it looks most unlikely. I have put a note on BethNaught's talk page.  Velella    01:32, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Reported to WP:AIV. Impersonation is something Nsmutte does often. Sro23 (talk) 01:42, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Indeffed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:59, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Addendum: Qwertyufg (talk · contribs) indeffed, same MO. —C.Fred (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I reverted my close, because of the new one. Is there any way to set an edit filter to catch these? Or is NPP (does NPP look at userpages?) or Recent Changes going to be enough? Softlavender (talk) 04:24, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm less than knowledgeable about edit filters, but a filter that catches replication of userpages might be interesting... GAB 04:41, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

NPP does not normally patrol user pages, despite the fact that there is, for some reason, a running log of unreviewed pages in user space. TimothyJosephWood 14:51, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Timothyjosephwood, when you say "log", do you mean they are actually logged somewhere, and if so, can you post the link? Or by "a running log" do you simply mean "an amount of" or "a number of"? Softlavender (talk) 06:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

They're here, possibly other places as well. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. It appears none of them are unpatrolled, so I'm assuming there were no more impersonators, and this thread may be closed. Softlavender (talk) 03:44, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

That's odd. I posted the link from a bookmark without examining it. I doubt that even half have been patrolled. Before NPP was a separate user group, I occasionally patrolled new user pages. It may be that since the change user pages are no longer marked as unpatrolled. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 08:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Almost all of them show up as yellow and unpatrolled in the list just now... Anyway, this particular troll's activities shift - impersonating BethNaught and other editors is only one of their pastimes, and they seem to be having a lot of time on their hands right now to vandalise Misplaced Pages. But many of us keep an eye out for this individual (who is easy enough to spot once you've seen them a few times, and who has been community banned for some time). --bonadea contributions talk 10:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I don't see any yellow on that page no matter which browser I use, but I don't do NPP so maybe only NPPers see the yellow. Softlavender (talk) 06:32, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Is this the wrong forum?

I am not sure but my computer may have been hijacked (I might have sorted it out but am not sure), so can admins keep an eye on my account just in case. You will able to tell if it's not me, they can spell.Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, what the hell? this was started with "new section" and yet appears to be being places in another threads area, why?Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

The previous section was missing a {{abot}}, so it got confused. Κσυπ Cyp   13:28, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

LOL, well at least it was nothing to do with my paranoia.Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: - might be a good idea to change your password for your Misplaced Pages account, just to be on the safe side. Mjroots (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

My concern is not that my account has been hacked, but that some kind of key logger is in place. Changing the password would not help.Slatersteven (talk) 22:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Rogers Toronto Date/EngVar Vandal

I have been spotting and reverting this vandal for years, but recently vandalism has intensified so much that I finally have to report here.

All the IPs this vandal has used can be seen here: Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of 99.254.158.227.

This vandal is from the Greater Toronto Area, apparently a Chinese speaker, but goes around Misplaced Pages changing "centre" to "center", "colour" to "color" and DMY dates to MDY dates wherever the US spelling/style would be inappropriate. Finding many articles protected, this vandal has moved onto articles like Pinctada maxima to change between "mollusk" and "mollusc".

This user has never registered for an account (to my knowledge), but recently has become daily in finding either new IP or new articles to vandalize, so much so that my contributions are now more than 50% reverting this vandal.

A long-term range block of Rogers Hi-Speed Internet IPs in the Toronto area (now apparently in the 2607:FEA8 range) seems appropriate to encourage this vandal to find a new hobby. HkCaGu (talk) 06:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe an edit filter would be a better defence against this? ϢereSpielChequers 07:21, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Since the disruption is still ongoing while we discuss this, I've performed a 1 week range block on the latest range, 2607:fea8:235f:ff8f::/64. Is there an edit filter that could easily catch this? You'd have to check for every variation in spelling, wouldn't you? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:55, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

User replacing images with his own lower-quality ones

• Hemant banswal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Hemant banswal is an amateur photographer keen on introducing his own work into articles. A few are useful angles on local architecture which Misplaced Pages was lacking, but a lot of his edits are adding redundant photos that don't particularly illustrate anything and replacing useful and/or high-quality images with unclear, lower-resolution ones from his own camera. User:Pocketthis mentioned "a number of us chasing this guy" for this behaviour back in January; after I took the time to offer Hemant some talk page advice, and to patiently deal out warnings up to level-4 when reverting his edits, he's still replacing photos with his own less-illustrative ones and has not attempted to discuss these edits with anyone. Not sure where else to go from here. --McGeddon (talk) 12:51, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

It is my view that an editor who has taken or has found a photo which could improve a article should be bold and just do it (recognizing that a consensus of editors might conclude the article has too many or that this one isn't suitable. However, when it comes to replacing one photo with another one, absent situations where it is clear that the replacement is materially better, the editor should open a discussion on the talk page, ideally to get support, but at a minimum to identify lack of opposition, before replacing the photo.

I don't pretend to have invented this process, it is one I've seen used by editors I respect, but AFAIK, it isn't codified as a guideline {or maybe it has and I just haven't seen it). If it is a sensible rule, we might codify it as a guideline, then we would have a better ability to deal with situations such as thins, and could revert per a guideline, rather than having to create an ANI incident.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:43, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• What McGeddon failed to mention here is that this user, who claims to speak English on his user page, has NEVER replied to one of us. His talk page looks like a Rand McNally map of problems. Many posts of help offered, much advice offered by many. Replies from the user in question: ZERO. He is either suffering from mental issues, or just doesn't give a damn, and he just continues to run from article to article exchanging high res quality photos with amateur low res cell phone photos with no composition. He is trouble and needs a BOOT. Do what you will, I am personally tired of chasing him around. Respectfully, Pocketthis (talk) 16:12, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• Blocked. @Pocketthis: (hello there, I remember your great pictures!). I understand your frustration, but we have seen many cases of users who simply aren't aware they have a talkpage, or what it's for. On the assumption that that's what's the problem here, I have blocked the user for two weeks, simply to get their attention. They have certainly been warned enough, and reached-out-to enough. Bishonen | talk 21:22, 13 February 2017 (UTC).

• Oh dear, McGeddon and Pocketthis, I forgot to actually place the block (being used to Twinkle doing it for me), and the user immediately came to my page, to give me a pie and have a chat. Some irony there. I told him to get back to his own page — I gave him a link to it and everything — and chat to the people who have taken so much trouble to reach out to him. Seriously. Now he's blocked. Bishonen | talk 21:36, 13 February 2017 (UTC).
• Lol...I got a good laugh at your post. It fixed a simply horrid day...:-) How did he end up on your page?? He finally replied when he was blocked?? I don't get it, but if this is heading toward some resolution with the problem: Bravo. Oh...thanks for the photography compliment, it certainly caught me off guard, as I don't remember speaking with you previously. Thanks Pocketthis (talk) 00:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
• WAIT!! of course! You were the lovely lady that came to my talk page regarding the UFO incident. I still have that on my page in fact. I kept it because it was such a nice gesture for you to make by coming to my page and discussing the images we see in the clouds. Nice to see you again..really.  :-) - Pocketthis (talk) 00:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• I merely told him he had been blocked, I forgot to actually block him. (Twinkle does both together.) So he had no problem coming to my page. Which conveniently made me realize I hadn't blocked him... or I might never have noticed. I certainly remember your cloud pictures, Pocketthis. This sky is absolutely insane. Bishonen | talk 09:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC).

• On the 'downside', he still hasn't addressed any issues on his talk page, and it certainly isn't because he doesn't know where his talk page is. On the 'upside', at least you got a pie out of the deal! →Pocketthis (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
• Also, to end any speculation re: 'he may not know where his talk page is', I did a little investigating, and discovered that he blanked his Talk Page of 8,000 characters on February 10th, 2015. So much for that notion. Now my bigger concern is: What happens after the 2 week Ban? Thanks - Pocketthis (talk) 17:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Looking for broader community input

Good evening ladies and gentlemen.
There has been a recent discussion on my talk page which I would appreciate if you could go take a look at (User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi#Second eye..) for the full picture. But in summary, we have User:MilenaGlebova1989 who has created 154 short articles on individual Yoga positions (or 'asanas'). Winged Blades of Godric and Cyphoidbomb are doubtful they are notable, are poorly sourced- mostly WP:PRIMARY- and ought to be redirected to our List of asanas article. There being so many qualifies them, I suggest, for this single, centralised discussion to take place.
So in the interest of wider discussion, in appreciation of the benefits that 'the intervention of administrators and experienced editors' can bring (and hoping someone will know of a means of mass-redirecting if that is indeed the conclusion), here we are. No particular administrative action is requested- except, again, if there are tools available to redirect en masse- although it is probably worth noting that if this had been replied to, something could have been worked out earlier and we may not have to be here now. Cheers, O Fortuna! 16:32, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• Redirect - As I noted on Fortuna's talk page, if this were a single article, I would have redirected to the List of asanas article on the basis that independent notability had not been properly established, but given that we're talking about 154 or so cookie-cutter stubs, it seems a massive undertaking to perform without discussion--and frankly, without help. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:44, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
• Redirect--As the iniator of the discussion, I find zero-notability in these standgalone stubs and propose an en-masse redirect to List of asanas. Winged Blades 18:10, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: These articles contain images with promotional watermarks that were originally published under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License (CC BY-SA 4.0). If I understand correctly we cannot (yet) re-license them under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License (CC BY-SA 3.0).

Creative commons says: "The 3.0 Attribution-ShareAlike allows contributions to be licensed under under a “Creative Commons Compatible License,” defined to mean licenses approved by CC as essentially equivalent to the 3.0 Attribution-ShareAlike license. To date, CC has not approved any other licenses as compatible. However, CC will develop a compatibility process shortly following launch of the 4.0 licenses." Also see:. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:58, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

• Redirect, absolutely. Having spot checked a dozen of the articles I didn't find a single one that did more than mention the name of the pose, as well as some WP:NOTHOWTO violating advice and a list of titles (with amazon.com links for refs) of books that describe it - no indication of notability, and the articles look like spam magnets for various publications that mention them. It may even be the case that they were created in order to name-drop the author of the book and website that the images were taken from, given that all the images appear to have the same source - the same user has created articles about both the author and the book, in addition to all the asanas. (If so, we should be grateful that there are only 154 articles, given that the book apparently lists more than 2000 of them...) --bonadea contributions talk 21:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah, that's a good note about the spam potential, Bonadea. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:55, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thanks very much Bonadea: does this kind of thing increase google hits, or something, d'you think? O Fortuna! 07:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I think it is likely that some SEO people believe that it does, anyway - I have very little idea of how google's rankings work, but spamming the name of a person or product to various pages is something I see happen occasionally. That's not a reason in itself to delete the pages I guess, but it makes my spam spider senses go all tingly... --bonadea contributions talk 21:04, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Eddaido and WP:OWNership

This has to be one of the stranger cases of WP:OWN I've come across. I made a change to the date formatting (among some other edits) on George Wylde. Wylde died on 15 January 1650. As was the convention in England at the time, the death was recorded in at least one of the older sources used in the article as occurring on 15 January 1649/1650 (see Lady Day and Old Style and New Style dates#Start of the year in the historical records of Britain and its colonies and possessions for why). Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers instructs that "In writing about historical events, however, years should be assumed to have begun on 1 January." Of the sources used in this article Williams simply uses "15 Jan. 1650" and

This seems to be a WP:content dispute. As both parties are engaged in the discussion even if not perfectly, the solution when there are only 2 if you and you can't come to an agreement is some form of WP:dispute resolution which does not include ANI. If there is existing site wide consensus on this it should be trivial to establish that visa discussion and the other party will have no choice but to accept. Nil Einne (talk) 00:29, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Removal of other undisputed corrections is problematic but realistically no one is going to sanction over one instance. If they continue to block the improvements when introduced without the disputed content and without any discussion despite attempts then there may be a case. Nil Einne (talk) 00:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

The suggestion at MoS is not disputed but it should be remembered: "This guideline is a part of the English Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." This subject is not Mr Pepys. Anyone interested in more research is thrown by the use of a death year which is not the year recorded. See Will etc.

The editor was asked to either leave the date as it was or add New Style. The whole of the original edit was reverted just to get the attention of an IP editor otherwise unlikely to react (the nature of IPs) and currently amending many similar articles. Sorry to the IP if I bumped a genuine improvement. Nice if its all over. Happiness, Eddaido (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It's inappropriate to revert proper edits to get "attention". It also makes little sense, since there's no reason why you can't simply revert but leave the good edits in or revert the reintroduce the changes after reverting. In addition, the IP has clearly been around a long time as you yourself seemed to acknowledge but their talk page is still a red link so you have zero reason to think it was needed, please remember to WP:AGF and treat IPs as WP:HUMAN.

Finally your defence is even more flawed because the first time around you reintroduced most of the changes . It was only the second time around, after the IP had already started discussion on the talk page that you simply reverted without reintroducing the good , so you could have gotten attention simply by replying on the talk page (i.e. even ignoring the fact you made no attempt to discuss the first time around so couldn't resonably assume the IP wouldn't have responded if you initiated the discussion). I'm not sure if you disagree with the category, you didn't reintroduce it the first time and although our article does claim with a reference he's buried there, George Wilde isn't listed in Burials and memorials in Westminster Abbey so there may be valid disagreement. But there's no way preserving "WIlliams" is a good edit. Perhaps per WP:BRD the IP shouldn't have reintroduced the year change when it was clearly disputed (although it's complicated by the fact the reason for the dispute wasn't clear and they provided good reason for it the second time around). But that's not a good enough reason to leave out clearly good edits. It's clearly not a case where the edits are so complicated that it's difficult to sort the good from the bad so yo have to wholesale revert. So no, there's no justification for your editing regardless of the rights and wrongs of the content dispute.

Please remember it's not just the IP that are affected but the whole community when you preserve flaws in our articles which someone has attempted to correct, simply to get attention. As I said, you're unlikely to be sanctioned for a single instance (well multiple instances as part of one) but if you do repeat this crap in the future, don't be surprised if you're blocked. So no, no happiness and the only reason the flaw in our article is "all over" is because I reintroduced the IP's correction (after your comment above).

Nil Einne (talk) 05:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

There seems to be a big misunderstanding here. Shall I go into it? Eddaido (talk) 06:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

That's up to you. The more important thing is that you don't preserve errors because you wish to wholesale revert to get attention in the future (as you implied with your first comment). Note if preserving the error was a mistake (e.g. you missed it when reverting and would have fixed it if you'd noticed or you did notice and intended to fix it but forgot), that's slightly more acceptable but it's still an important reminder to take great care when reverting. And ultimately whatever the reason preserving errors is not acceptable. So while there may be some more tolerance for the occasional honest mistake, it's still something you need to prevent. One option would be simply to avoid wholesale reverting when only simple parts of the edit are disputed. Nil Einne (talk) 07:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

IanB2 and Vikings (TV series)

• IanB2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Vikings (TV series) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

A discussion began at Talk:Vikings (TV series) § links from the cast list section by IanB2 on the validity of linking character from the television series Vikings to the historical figures that the characters are inspired by. After a discussion of intermediate length and an initial edit, later reverted, I gave a suggestion as to the linking, and that was to link to the historical figures, but for characters with entries only at List of Vikings characters, to not link them. IanB2 then took this discussion the wrong way, and did link the figures to the article of the historical figures, but specifically to the subsections of "Portrayals in fiction", or similar titles: the edit, and then a revert by Sandstein, of which IanB2 reverted again. This was disagreed upon in the discussion by multiple editors, but the editor has forced this version multiple times, claiming STATUSQUO, while the status quo is the version without the "Portrayals in fiction" links, which had stood for many years, with no other editor supporting their edits, and no consensus whatsoever. I removed the links earlier this month, over a month after the discussion, which IanB2 reverted. I then reverted again in good faith, which is when IanB2 reverted with no explanation or edit summary. When taken to their talk page after they reverted my removal with no reason, they gave no indication that they wished to contribute to a fair discussion while leaving the proper status quo in place. I attempted to remove them again today, with the flow of no consensus for the links to the subsections, but I was reverted thrice- this is where IanB2 claimed STATUSQUO incorrectly; I have since ceased to revert to prevent edit-warring. These actions well and truly fall under WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, specifically the fourth point as described below, and also the second point: An unrelated editor added link to another historical figure, which IanB2 accused me of adding "uncited links" in their revert of my edits, while not even removing the link. They then even restored the link after I removed it (noted that they later removed it after it was brought to their attention). However, these actions definitely comply with the fourth point of OWNBEHAVIOR. If the editor wishes to take part in this discussion, they would do well to note that this is a discussion about their actions, not the content. Alex|The|Whovian 08:29, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I am disappointed with both the tone and the content of the above. This issue arose originally from a point that I raised on the talk page of the relevant article, on 31 December. Arising from this discussion, Alex proposed a solution ("links can be directed to the reference to the television series in the historical figure's article - e.g., link "Ragnar Lothbrok" to Ragnar Lodbrok#In popular culture") which I implemented as he proposed. Alex subsequently changed his mind and has several times (twice on 2 February, three times this morning) returned to the page to revert the change, without providing any explanation as to why his own proposal should be reversed. Alex made these five deletions/reverts without contributing further to the talk page on the relevant article - until this morning the last contribution was mine of 3 January in which I say I am happy to discuss further. The appropriate way for Alex to have proceded was to have responded to my invitation and set out whatever are the concerns he may now have with his own earlier suggestion, not to repeatedly edit the page without offering any justification, and then bring the matter here. I feel that the WP:OWN allegation is inappropriate, since the proposal at issue was his own suggestion to begin with, and his recent emotional behaviour in the discussion on the television manual of style (culminating in his edits of 3 February, and multiple complaints from other editors about Alex's disruptive approach) indicate that this is a policy he might usefully himself review. Finally I note that Alex's three edits of the page today each revert my original change of 31 December, and I have returned the page to status quo each time, so for disclosure we would both appear to be in breach of 3RR IanB2 (talk) 09:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

And as I have mentioned time and time again, I revoked my stance on the decision, and found it to not be applicable to the article. I have provided plenty of explanation, which you seem to ignore, and that is that you have no consensus or supported for your edits. No other editor has agreed with the edits since you implemented them. I contributed to the discussion on your talk page, which you made it extremely clear that you did not plan to make any attempt at a civilized and fair discussion, and hence I left it. I brought the matter here due to the fact that I was concerned with your severe breaches of OWNBEHAVIOR, which are not just allegations, given that proof was provided in my original post. I would recommend that you begin immediate action to rectify what has been listed. I am not some angsty teenage that allows particular discussions to affect my contributions to other ones - I reverted my disruptive edits regarding the MoS changes, and withdrew from it. This does not affect my ability to discuss the issues regarding the cast list, and that you would assume it does shows that you think very little, if at all, of other editors on this site. I would also recommend that you actually read up on 3RR - your statements are false. This is not the status quo. The status quo is the version without the links, that the page stood with for multiple years, and the disruptive edits are the ones that were reverted by two editors, not just myself. For a version to be a status quo is, after all, a version that does not contain the edits being disputed. The edits being disputed? Those are the section links. Alex|The|Whovian 12:05, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Since no other editor has contributed to the discussion, or amended the edit to the article, for some weeks, Alex's references to "consensus" don't actually amount to any more than himself disagreeing with his earlier proposal that resolved the original disagreement. He has offered no explanation in relation to the substantive issue to explain his change of view or support his multiple reversions, for which the proper place is the article talk page. I have made no comment on Alex's maturity or judgement, but believe my positive attempt to resolve the dispute he created (by his own admission) within the MOSTV review speaks for itself (and may well be why Alex has chosen to escalate a relatively trivial disagreement to this administrators' page). Alex's three edits to the Vikings series page this morning each reverse my edit of 31 December, which in my view falls foul of 3RR, but I am happy to be guided by more experienced editors if I have misread this policy. IanB2 (talk) 15:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Why not hold a request for comments? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

IP hopper deleting content from India articles

A person is removing content and sources from Indian articles. After a number of reverts, the person switches IPs and repeats with similar ES. The IPs geolocate to San Francisco, Japan, and S. Korea.

• 69.167.30.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 59.146.190.114 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 27.100.20.16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 117.247.253.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Some of the articles being edited include:

• Ministry of Agriculture & Farmers Welfare (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Ministry of Textiles (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• INS Dweeprakshak (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Ministry of Skill Development and Entrepreneurship (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of government space agencies (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Not sure what the person's agenda is, but the removals don't match the explanation. 09:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• @Jim1138: please sign with four tildes, not five. I'll try to look at this later. Bishonen | talk 09:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC).

• 103.27.223.240 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Just started. Jim1138 (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Reverting: (note, not showing up as an "undo". No alerts from the reverts.

• Madras Regiment (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Indian Navy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• INS Kamorta (P28) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Kalvari-class submarine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• List of active Indian military aircraft (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Robin K. Dhowan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Jim1138 (talk) 10:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• 45.120.200.122 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Now active Jim1138 (talk) 10:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It's been quiet for awhile. Jim1138 (talk) 11:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, I'm sure it's quiet right now, Jim1138. 59.146.190.114, 103.27.223.240 and 45.120.200.122 have all been blocked for 31 hours recently, and the other two haven't been active for some time. I'm sorry to say I hardly think the problem is over, though; the blocks will soon expire and apparently the individual (as I take it to be) has no trouble accessing new IPs. Semi is always a possibility, but so many articles are affected! :-( Bishonen | talk 15:41, 14 February 2017 (UTC).

Adding: It's all a matter of fiddly small-scale adminning, I'm afraid, Jim. Materialscientist has done quite a bit of blocking and semiprotection. I've now added a couple of weeks' semi to List of government space agencies, List of active Indian military aircraft and Robin K. Dhowan. Bishonen | talk 15:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC).

Dispute over removed material

A few days ago I've started editing Tourism in Georgia (country) article, I study tourism in university and thanks to that background tried to find every useful material what is in connection with Georgian Tourism. You can see how the article enlarged after my updates and new materials before and after. Working on the article I decided that it will also useful to include UNWTO classification for Georgia, in a tourism industry and reports this classification is wide used since UNWTO is the main tourism international organization. In that classification, you can see tourist arrivals, receipts, annual change and many other things. In general, the classification shows how strong or weak is a country in comparison to its neighbors or world countries. Here you can see about what material is the dispute ►. After some time appeared User:Chipmunkdavis and made some improvements but he also removed that material about UNWTO classification. As I understood from his summaries he underestimates that international organization's role (maybe mostly because of incompetence in tourism). I restored his remove and opened discussion on his talk page. You can see that discussion's result. Instead of cooperating with me and having good faith he 3 times reverted (1, 2, 3) that material violating WP:3RR, he could ask me for more explanations but his only goal was revert and remove. Also, he thinks that this material is there only for Georgia's promotion as the European country, and he also said that is why I removed Asian category, but I wrote why I did so because according to the WTO classification Georgian tourism industry is a part of European tourism. You can see that in the end, I tried luck to solve the dispute without a third party but his answer convinced me that further discussions will not have a result and will be only edit-wars. One thing that really irritates is his position that he is master of wiki content and his the only truth and others have no rights or importance, you can place tons of arguments but none will be heard. He claimed that UNWTO classification is not used and it is not important (why?). In favor of me, I have my tourism study background and this excel file of Georgian National Tourism Administration's report where countries are classified under the UNWTO classification what once more proves that this classification is important and Chipmunkdavis is wrong. All in all what does wrong the material? it gives more information about particular country's positions in its tourism region, I think a problem is when we have a lack of information than information in details.--g. balaxaZe★ 13:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze, content disputes are not resolved here. See WP:DR for your options. --NeilN 14:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

User:NeilN yes I tried it first but they redirected me here because the case is not only about pure edits. Please do not close so fast.--g. balaxaZe★ 16:27, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze, you have zero posts on the article's talk page and opened a totally inappropriate DRN case solely accusing the other editor of wikihounding. You need to actually follow the dispute resolution process. --NeilN 16:33, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

NeilN see here my first discussion at WP:DR: Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_147#User_talk:Chipmunkdavis.23WP:WIKIHOUNDING. That wikihounding was said because of a lot of past patterns when the user was appearing after my edits (even archiving his talk page at the same time as me) and was changing them in his manner. The rest is said above.--g. balaxaZe★ 17:00, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

So where to go? I just want to settle this case.--g. balaxaZe★ 17:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze: I've highlighted the relevant portions of the comment to you: " Report harassment or hounding at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. If there is a content issue, discuss it on an article talk page." --NeilN 17:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

NeilN how to discuss the content issue with an involvement of other experienced editors? That article is not so popular. Anyway I want to discuss this case with admins to prevent future repeats. I am sure without this there will be a lot of similar cases.--g. balaxaZe★ 17:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze: Admins have no more authority in resolving disputes than any other editor. They have to abide by the exact same rules, so discussing it here first won't help anything. Please discuss it at the article talk first, and feel free to post a neutral invitation to come participate on the talk page of any relevant WikiProject. That should attract enough other editors to get things handled. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze:, how to discuss the content issue with an involvement of other experienced editors? Not by using ANI for that purpose. The WP:DR link gives you the proper options. Start by using the article's talk page. Ask for a WP:30. Open a WP:RFC or go to WP:DRN if those options prove fruitless. --NeilN 17:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay I will try your suggestions. Just to mention I've used that user's talk page to solve the problem, the issue is caused not mainly by material but by his attitude.--g. balaxaZe★ 17:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• @Giorgi Balakhadze: Here are your options: You can go back to DRN and focus on content, not contributors. Any accusations of misconduct must be left out of it, but you can focus on the actual content dispute there. Otherwise, we can look into your allegations of Wikihounding here. Wikihounding is a form of harassment and, of course, we would never expect a user who is actually being stalked and harassed to engage in good faith dispute resolution with someone who's distressing them. However, you must provide evidence about the Wikihounding. You'd need to at least show us examples of how this editor is following you. If you can substantiate those concerns, of course we will help you. However coming to ANI and making bad faith accusations against an established editor in good standing with no evidence to back it up will not result in a warm welcome. Swarm ♠ 18:14, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Swarm I do not like to make reports about other people because they cause negative and I try to not make personally negative things. I had many confrontations with that user and he is "like controling" my edits. Of course I can start digging in histories and can find many examples of when he was appearing just after my edits but I hope this personal warning will make him stop such behaviour. --g. balaxaZe★ 18:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze has opened an RfC at Talk:Tourism in Georgia (country)#User Chipmunkdavis' dispute about UNWTO classification. In my view, it does not evidence a good reading of WP:RFC, and nor does it "focus on content, not contributors". I do think there are behavioural problems here. This is part of a continuous trend of misunderstanding or ignoring Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines (despite lecturing others on them), an unwillingness or inability to improve on that, and an unhelpful repetitive comments on contributors and appeals to authority (both in evidence here) that are not conducive to discussion. Tellingly, their participation in discussions rarely seems to last long. This has been going on for years now, and it would be nice to have some action taken on it. CMD (talk) 08:54, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Giorgi Balakhadze: I have closed that completely inappropriately worded RFC. Your misuse or incorrect use of various processes is now bordering on becoming disruptive editing. It is expected that editors read the all the instructions for implementing a process. You don't have to get all the little details right, but in this case "include a brief, neutral statement of or question about the issue" is in bold, simply written, and is expanded in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief. You are welcome to open a new RFC if you can follow these instructions. Chipmunkdavis, do you have any diffs to show this is an ongoing issue with Giorgi Balakhadze? --NeilN 14:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

What diffs are you looking for, and how far back? There have been various reports in different noticeboards (searched here), which contain relevant diffs, and I hope to some extent the posts in this latest series of events speaks for themselves somewhat.

The last time they posted on my talkpage it was a similar aggressive statement and a demand to use the talkpage when they hadn't touched it themselves (), followed by an apparent threat to involve a wider audience(). Similarly relevant to this discussion, they've accused other users of wikihounding before(). The wider pattern is that they are extremely confrontational. They regularly accuse others of POV editing or similar (), say others are lying (), and call edits they disagree with vandalism ((->)). This takes place while they regularly change things to fit their POV (here's a dif where they call it "minor changes"), and say things like "In Armenian literature you can find many things that are far from truth". They also like to accuse others of edit warring, an interesting example being where they told someone off for edit warring with them () and then denied edit warring themselves (). All this while telling others things such as that they don't understand Misplaced Pages policy (). Complementing all this, as well as in their comments on other editors (such as in this discussion), there's a lot of WP:POT. The general tone of their contributions is easily seen by looking through their contributions. These diffs were all taken from their last 1000 edits, however warnings noting to not edit war and use the article talkpage go back to 2013 (). CMD (talk) 16:25, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Putting many diffs without context isn't fair thing, I can defend all of the diffs and answer for all of them if one will have special questions. But here is one thing, your diff-readdines clrearly shows that you are wikihourding me even for me would be hard to find all my past edits and to show them is such way, I guess you are collecting and bookmarking all of them. Once more I will repeat what you show to users is a complete misrepresentation. Also what means 2013? That time I was new in wiki and had no idea about rules. Maybe better to speak about your violation of rules?He behaves very unfriendly and unfair. CMD you can revert other users but if I revert vandalism that is bad thing? I will repeat I can answer separately for each diff if someone will be interested.--g. balaxaZe★ 18:58, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Also if you involve Louisaragon here let me tell to the audience that you both were making intrigues against me and I wasn't tagged it was an intrigue of two users against third one, is it normal here?--g. balaxaZe★ 19:11, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

When I add some new materials or update existing you simply reverting it and will revert them once twice until other part will not stop but not you, you alwas push your view as the most right and correct and think that other users have no rights. That tourism classificaiton issue clearly shows that you reverted them just because you want like that and you can remove sourced contribution with a summary similar to "In my mind it is inappropriate" and that's all. This is very irritative and causes all of this.--g. balaxaZe★ 19:26, 15 February 2017 (UTC)\

Your first summary when reverting: Rv map which conveys little if anything, and rv ridiculous overrepresentation of one organisation's administrative divisions. Yep, those are well written and cast-iron arguments.--g. balaxaZe★ 19:49, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I would have to say, having "endured" Giorgi Balakhadze's editorial pattern for a decent amount of time now, that its marked by extreme hostility, hot-headedness, no control over temper, and, perhaps most importantly (I'd say this is the root of the whole story) clear IRL grievances related to the political situation surrounding the country of Georgia, which he imports into Wiki. Its so apparant, there's simply no doubt about it. I will add that this is something that's going on for quite some time now as well. Everyone who disagrees with said user, will receive the full load from him at some point. These diffs are still pretty recent for example;

• "(...) maybe before your shameless intrigues you first talk to me a?"
• "(...) so please have more dignity"
• "(...) he tries to show me from the negative side and he lies ".
• "Be sure Aragon if you continue behaving like this (POV based intrigues) and "throwing" to me dirty I will ask admins to review this case, to make special efforts and to call down your appetite in attempts to block me."

Earlier examples, alike content;

• "You are lying".
• "THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT GEORGIA IN ITS INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS AND EVERYONE MUST ADMIT THIS."
• "Sorry but you need more knowledge to understand what means imagined lines".
• "You won't afraid no one with this cheap pathos about sanctions and my "POV".

- LouisAragon (talk) 03:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Of course LouisAragon has appeared here, it would be pitty to miss such a chance right? As I said above those two users were involved in intrigue to blame to me that I am a sock-puppet (idea was LouisAragon's) and to achive a goal to see me blocked (because I cause trouble to them). Here you can see whole discussion without cuting some parts from a context as above mentioned users do . This made me very angry and I answered to them after that LouisAragon even reportd me (because they like to report other users) but his misrepresentations and intrigues were ignored (when something isn't true and one does it to fool people semantic meaning of this action is "a lie").
• Also, now I will start diging in history and will show to people that this is not a battle of a devil and angels. There is nothing new that all talks are around Georgia because I edit mainly about Georgia. Those two users have some kind of agenda towards it and do to Georgian-connected artilces biased edits but not with Russia, Iran, Armenia, Abkhazia or South Ossetia. The first big collision with them appeared when they removed sockpuppet's useful materials from the article Georgia (before sockpuppet was not blocked they had some disputes with some parts of material, but after his block they reverted everything and everywhere dispite that many of the contribution was useful), removed material was measured in thousands of bytes. I was against remove of so many useful materials and opened disscussion here ► where admins clearly said Edits by a sock or a blocked user don't have to be reverted.

• Regarding LouisAragon's copy-paste of my comments about conflict regions I can put his POV when he says "Abhkazia and South Ossetia being a part of Georgia" which clearly shows that he is not neutral. Even by wiki standards they are conflict or disputed regions but LouisAragon considers them sovereing as Turkey, US or Germany.
• Also, I said LouisAragon has its agenda to show Georgia as non-European as possible (notice: CMD's revert about tourism was also about the same issue)

• Regarding CMD in the article of Georgia he uses every wiki rule what exists but do not use them with other articles for example with Abkhazia or South Ossetia, see here filling of the article with "citation needed" templates (only Georgia) , of course I am not against citations but this is also some kind of biased editing, many "citation needed" make article worse (dispite that material was true and after I've found sources for many on them). Here I found that other users also had same example of CMD's censorship like I have now.--g. balaxaZe★ 11:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Giorgi, providing diffs when being asked for diffs is not removing context. Nor is it a matter of any great hardship for editors to scroll down to read the conversation leading up to particular diffs. In fact if they do so in the case you mention, they'll note that despite your assertions neither LouisAragon nor myself thought you were a sock-puppet. The mention of the sockpuppet edit conversation is demonstrates a another continued lack of understanding of policies and guidelines, focusing on a single line instead of understanding relevant context. And this really shouldn't have to be said, but here's me adding cn tags to the Abkhazia article (). CMD (talk) 12:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

CMD I was impressed with so many cn templates with Georgia and comparing two cn templates with Abkhazia gives nothing, even now I can fill Abkhazia or South Ossetia with cn templates there is still enough empty spaces but in Georgia nothing was left.--g. balaxaZe★ 14:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

That sockpuppet edit conversation clearly shows that what I was saying was proved by other editors (and it is not lack of understanding), it was not only my view that you both didn't have to remove all materials. My main idea was to keep useful materials, because I see wikipedia as a place of knowledge but not bureaucratic machine.--g. balaxaZe★ 14:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Objectionable edit summary

Could an admin please have a quick look at the edit summary here. I don't think it is intended to be racist, but I'm not sure it's the type of language we want in edit summaries. DrChrissy 18:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

At first, it just seemed like garden-variety trash talk. However, this has apparently been a long-term problem with this IP user. That block log is really quite impressive. Following a homophobic outburst in February 2016, the IP user was blocked for a year. It seems like the disruptive behavior has started up once again days after that block ended. I blocked for two years. I have no doubt we'll be dealing with this again on February 14, 2019. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Crikey - I did not even look into their history. Thanks for looking into it. DrChrissy 21:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Good block - Hell must have frozen over, I agree with DrChrissy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

In all this friendly chatter, did anyone look at the edit summary? I don't think it warrants revdeletion. I did revert those Shark fin soup edits. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I could see squeezing it into the realm of "purely disruptive material" but policy discourages using revdel for ordinary vandalism. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I figured it wasn't disruptive enough to fit the criteria, but I'm still pretty new at this admin stuff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Request to enforce breach of agreement

I am coming here following a small peregrination to ask to just enforce a breach of agreement by editor Asilah1981, much in accordance with his incident history and long-running incongruous/erratic behaviour. After I posted a report here, my request was turned down for not being the right place, and was referred here by Peacemaker67.

The editor in question was given the opportunity to avoid an incremental block by accepting an alternative, more constructive sanction, 3 month mentoring (see incident below) for which me and Wee Curry Monster, familiar with his activity showed an scepticism, in a way that the mentoring agreement has been equally breached eventually by the editor, as detailed by the voluntary mentor User:Irondome, here and here . This arrangement resulted after a very long, unpleasant Incident for personal attacks, while at the same time he was being indefinitely blocked for WP:OUTING, ultimately lifted after the administrator trusted the editor. He has lately blanked his personal page.

Other editors involved are shown in the latest ANI. User:Iryna Harpy is now busy off wiki and has been notified, she may not turn up. I should also ping Wee Curry Monster and Kahastok, although they may consider they have said all they had to say by now.

I should ask for a termination to the account as the only solution to continuous disruption to the Misplaced Pages. Thanks Iñaki LL (talk) 23:48, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I have to tell that you've done a terrible job of explaining the problem. Could you please provide links demonstrating a current problem with this user's editing? Beeblebrox (talk) 02:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Beeblebrox and anyone else You are all welcome to carefully examine my editing history over the past couple of months here https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Asilah1981. For the record, I have had three unsubstantiated sockpuppetry accusations launched by this editor against me linking me to random editors and have lost counts of his ANIs and attempts to get me permanently blocked, most recently a few days ago. I'm not particularly concerned by this fixation but if WP:BOOMERANG doesn't apply here, I don't know when it does. Asilah1981 (talk) 06:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I actually did have a quick look at some of your recent edits, in an effort to understand the basis of this report, but didn't find any "smoking gun". From what I can tell, the idea here is that because your mentorship didn't work out, Iñaki LL thinks that automatically means you get blocked. While it's a shame that it didn't work out, WP:NOTBURO would seem to apply, you don't currently seem to be causing any real problems so there's no reason to block. Unless Iñaki LL can clarify why this is needed right now, I would advise them to just leave you alone and find soemthing more productive to do with their time. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

It would help Iñaki LL's editing experience if they did not continually assume that a disagreement is a personal attack. A recent revert on their userpage has the edit summary "unconstructive, gratuituous personal attack" when it was clearly nothing of the sort. Saying does not make it so. Basically, the lesson here is not to try and use dramahboardz and edit summaries as weapons of war. O Fortuna! 08:01, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox: I do not have the loads of time Asilah1981 seems to collect all the evidence, or dedicate as he does to litigation and removal of content on the WP in key topics related to present-day Spanish politics and history. The agreement was an alternative to a block, enforcement applies when someone skips sanction. I was suggested I add the link of the previous ANI, where there is lots of information, and came here for enforcement. The editor in question adapts continually, brings up the same parroting (I was accused...), and it has had consequences if you check his history. Other times there were technicalities involved, and I talked previously about my disappointment with the use of Checkuser for sockpuppeting.

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: Please be fair with me and the evidence, compare us both's history and collect all the data. That aggressive, gratuitous edit in my talk page suggesting some kind of collusion with the Nazis (apart from being disgusting) came just after litigation with Asilah, in his former confrontational manners, when it could just have been posted on the talk page of the topic in question. It is funny that you say it was a disagreement, it was an attack, check also this with Asilah1981's similar citing of the Nazis. or this (here, "libel" as discussed in the previous ANI does not refer to anything legal). By the way, I consider the latest editor's tone in his talk page to be sarcastic , seeming to use all the mild tone he has learned lately, since he said he would have to "change his strategy" (cannot find the diff since he blanked his page at different stages), does not sound very reassuring. Now after being strongly recommended by Irondome to stay out of contentious topics, now he breaches the agreement, he comes back with an attempt to remove an article he does not like from WP, so not having consequences for personal attacks (see latest ANI link above) seems to be playing perfect for him. Iñaki LL (talk) 09:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that their behavior actually has improved, but for the wrong reason. Even if you are correct, it doesn't matter. Also, the diffs you are providing are old. Either provide evidence that there is a problem now that merits a block, or let it go. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

As Asilah1981's former mentor, all I can say here is that a call to sanction A in some way at this stage is unwise. It may well be that A has indeed modified his behaviours in the light of the events of dec-jan, and that the mentoring in some way focussed A's mind. (My withdrawal of mentorship was primarily due to the terms requiring liaison with myself being sloppily and poorly maintained, which in my view made the mechanics of the mentoring untenable). It may be for other reasons. Who knows? The major outcome is that Asilah's behaviour has become less of an issue than two months before. Unless Asilah's behaviours rapidly deteriorate in the future, I think we have nothing to discuss here, apart from revisiting old threads and living in the past. Let events take their course. Being an optimist, I would like to think that Asilah has indeed finally taken advice and the threat of severe sanctions seriously, and has acted accordingly on how they edit and interact. Irondome (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, no, let me disagree here, your outlook is overall a positive one for the WP as I see it, but sorry in this case it is doing no good. A quick look to his recent history says it all. (Going through this at the bottom of this edit) Re Wee Curry Monster, that is what I thought for a period, but does that really work out when the editor in question is left to continue for months or years? The thing is that in exchange of this imaginative alternative to a block, as I was fearing, and I think you WCM also were thinking so, the punished has been me (us, the community), in that the breach of sanction goes unpunished, and I happened to detect further irregular editing early on (below). He has also seen a free rein to get into the contentious topics he was discouraged from and does what he wants, basically, while I am now spending hours involved in this negativity that two years ago was infrequent rather than common, and is dampening the spirits of not only me but droves of other productive editors.

Just a quick note on the link above brought up by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi. I perceived immediately the animosity in the intervention of that editor, out of the blue I should say, but decided to WP:LETITGO with a short talk on the article's talk page, in a way that now that editor's version is the one that remains in the article...

Some evidence of irregular editing by Asilah1981 (with his new milder tone) I happened to find lately, e.g. in Basque conflict: altering content of sources when nothing is said of the claimed statement in the reference, just after ending the latest Incident in January. In Basque National Liberation Movement: adding POV/OR comment, going in the talk page that “I will add the sources” (well, do it! WP:BURDEN, plus WP:FORUM), when he is claiming to be an 'experienced' editor, for which he was quick to remove a notice to his talk page, added by WMC, off the top of my head (check history anyway). Well that does not look to me a proper experienced editor if his behaviour is anything to go by, after months of discussions, notices and warnings to him in article talk pages and his own talk page, as well as ANI Incidents. It reveals, as I pointed before, a total, recurrent inability to take responsibility for his own actions, and emphasis on POV.

Very recently in Bullfighting, he tests the patience of editors to the limit, recurrently, time and again, see here lately (when he was breaching agreement with the community and Irondome). I seems to thrive in litigation and discussions, and needs to bring attention. See also clear removal of accurate verified content with misleading edit summary in this article, looking rather WP:JDLI, or breach of WP:CENSOR. Sorry this is far from proper editing after all. I should ping Cyphoidbomb and Joefromrandb who have an experience lately with Asilah1981 if they think they can also add something. Iñaki LL (talk) 00:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

My only observation on the editor's recent behavior (at Bullfighting) was that they launched into an edit war after being encouraged to discuss their changes. "There is no real need to take to talk. It is not even a question for debate." Clearly it was a questino for debate, if there was another editor (Joefromrandb) who disagreed. Protecting the article got the editor onto the talk page for discussion and that seemed to go okay, although with a few bumps from both parties. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This complaint seems ridiculous to me. I found Cyphoidbomb editing an article and then locking it to be far worse than anything Asilah did. Whatever problems Asilah may have caused at the bullfighting article, the end result was a better article. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:57, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Bobsanders1991 compromised?

Bobsanders1991 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Appears to be a genuine contributor but an abrupt change of article topic is seen in two incidents of apparent vandalism at Visigoths (egregious and questionable). Wanted to bring this up before any more damage occurs. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree, it looks very odd for someone who has been editing for a year would suddenly start introducing deliberate errors. I've blocked them, we'll see what reaction that draws. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe a CU could take a look to see if the technical data could indicate that the account was compromised? --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 16:48, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

 CheckUser is not for fishing and would not necessarily be of any help. In many cases of of WP:COMPROMISED the account wasn't hacked, the user in question was just careless and left their account logged in on a shared machine, allowing a malicious this party to abuse their account. Unless another user knows them personally, there is no way to verify that they are back in control of the account. So unless they decide to own those edits and admit to vandalizing, this account is probably a done deal and they will need to start a new one. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of alternate accounts, if you check Th3Rea$on, you can see Wikipediaupload (talk · contribs) recreated it several hours after Bobsanders1991 created it. Wikiupload1991 (talk · contribs) also looks related; all three accounts have edited Anna Faith. Seems a bit fishy to me. Maybe this isn't such an innocent contributor? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's not good. Pretty clear socking, rotating the accounts to edit the same article. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Apparent personal attacks & conflict of interest Rod Culleton

Faroutyouaregood1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaging in what appear to me to be personal attacks, in relation to The Drover's Wife on Talk:Rod Culleton in this post, this post and on User talk:The Drover's Wife in this post. What appears to be a further personal attack was made in relation to User:Wikiain in this post.

The personal attacks, emotive language used in the main article edits that were reverted, 1 2 3 4 5 6, the original research in this comment, and the threat to create a sockpuppet in this comment all suggest that User:Faroutyouaregood1 may have a conflict of interest in relation to the subject of the article Rod Culleton. Find bruce (talk) 05:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The last four sprays on Talk:Rod_Culleton were after my polite request to read WP:NPA on his/her talk page. Perhaps I was too subtle as I didn't have much time. -- 07:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I've protected the page and issued a final warning. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Scott Davis I thought your polite request was an appropriate way to put it for a new editor & I made a similar comment on Talk:Rod Culleton. It is only when behaviour continues that the comments need to be more direct. While the initial response was sub-optimal, the warning issued by Beeblebrox has elicited an appropriately contrite response on User talk:Faroutyouaregood1. Coupled with the couple of days protection to allow emotions to cool will hopefully be the end of it. -- Find bruce (talk) 00:27, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Procedural closes?

An IP editor is creating disruption by making a string of requested moves on tropical-storm articles, generally going against established guidelines. The three IPs look like socks of User:N-C16, and I have filed a report at SPI. (All the details are there.)

User:George Ho and I were hoping these twelve requested moves (most have been relisted now) could just be closed because of the socking. — Gorthian (talk) 07:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@George Ho and Gorthian: I agree these IPs are socks of N-16. You can either close (or remove if there are no responses) the move discussions yourself, pointing to this thread in the edit summary, or point to a list of these articles. --NeilN 14:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@NeilN: Here is the list of hurricane- and storm-related articles at RM. There are so many. I think "procedural close" would do best. --George Ho (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

All mopped up. Template:Mop --NeilN 18:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

What about Talk:Tropical Storm Dorothy (1970) then? There are two supports. The IP is not yet blocked, but most likely a sock. George Ho (talk) 18:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

And Talk:Hurricane Kathleen (1976)? George Ho (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

NeilN, thank you for your help. George Ho, I think those two will just have to work their way to consensus, since other editors are involved now. — Gorthian (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

OVERLINKING and redirect problems

Fmadd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Fmadd is a (relatively) new user on Misplaced Pages, but has already created quite a big stir. In the past two weeks alone they have created over 250 redirects and DAB pages (and a total of 942 redirs since joining). While clearly they are not all bad, the majority are somewhat nonsensical (such as thermomagnetic, Scattering_event, and a couple of not-actually-DAB pages that have already been deleted). From looking down their creation list, it almost appears as if they say "I don't know what this means", put a wikilink, and then attempts to shoehorn in a redirect to something that is vaguely related.

I was going to drop this and walk away, but after seeing three subsequent similar posts at the user's page I feel obligated to bring it up here. In the last two months there have been 5 threads on their talk page regarding overlinking and a half-dozen notices left for pages listed for deletion. They have displayed a rather alarming NOTLISTENING attitude, brushing off attempts at correction to things like "Misplaced Pages should be a...resource for AI training", "the more links the better", and finishing it all up with "I am utterly amazed that this is controversial" (hint: when a dozen different editors say it's problematic, it might just be problematic). A similar discussion at WT:PHYS has also been started, with similar results. Minutes after I nominated Organic dye for deletion (it had zero incoming links) they created 50 incoming links in a clearly POINTY response. Similarly, they brushed off being told that linking to dab pages like stellar explosion was not overly helpful.

Fmadd is clearly not getting the point, which is why we're here. The overlinking needs to stop, and the wanton creation of barely-usable redirects needs to stop. While we shouldn't just delete every redirect they've created, there are a bunch of them that could use some serious scrutiny and a ton of overlinking that needs to be looked at. Primefac (talk) 13:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I have had conversations as well. To be fair: Fmadd is a relatively new user and has not yet fully grasped that Misplaced Pages is a community project that works by consensus. He thinks Misplaced Pages should operate the way he wants it to, not the way it does. I do not believe any sanction is warranted at the present time, but what is required is someone with a bit more clout than us humble users to firmly explain how things work around here. With any luck, that should solve the problem. 86.186.169.144 (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that being relatively new is a good reason to avoid sanctions here. 10 months isn't that new, especially with 10,000 edits (I've been on here for a little over 10 months and 11,000 edits, and I understand consensus, it's a fairly easy thing to understand). 1/3 of his edits were in the past month, but you should have a general idea on how Misplaced Pages works with that number of edits. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 14:45, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that although User:Fmadd has commented on their talk page about the discussion here, and has been very busy editing, they haven't responded here. Doug Weller talk 17:16, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I thought this was a discussion between admins. Fmadd (talk) 17:29, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

All this fretting about over-linking, when it turns out there's already a script that can change the colour of links (e.g. .. controversial pages can be marked and they no longer 'compete for the users attention'). I said I was amazed it was contraversial, because I can imagine there are technical solutions. With whats there now you can indeed de-highlight 'contraversial' articles. I bet the script or server side software could be further modified to mark certain types of page 'trivial' within a domain (hence blanked out by default) (e.g. all physics articles dont highlight trivial physics terms, all ) etc. I got the impression this is more about a 'priestly cult' mindset. It's only by arguing I managed to discover the highlighting script (several days in, he knew about it all along..) Fmadd (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Fmadd/linkclassifier.css there's an example, I was able to modify that link-highlighter script to display 'articles marked for deletion' blanked out. Fmadd (talk) 17:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Fmadd, has made other kinds of problematic edits as well, see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mathematics#User:Fmadd and destruction of article leads. Paul August ☎ 17:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Seems like there might be some competency issues lurking about. If someone informs you that you are causing a problem, it's not a normal response to search for a technical solution that allows you to continue to cause the problem it's meant to solve. TimothyJosephWood 17:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

lol. as I thought, priestly cult mentality. Instead of improving a system, some people prefer to nit-pick, criticise others and so on. Thats why it was only many days into the discussion that someone finally told me there *is* actually already a way to colour code links by category. It would be easy to have a category of 'exploratory links', invisible by default, which are only visible if a user goes out of their way to highlight them with a custom colour scheme. Thats the first step, but imagine if wikipedia had a concept of 'prerequisites', where you could flag content according to what knowledge is pre-requisite, and dynamically blank content depending on what a user has clarified they already know. Fmadd (talk) 18:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Fmadd, you're missing the forest for the trees. We're telling you that per the Manual of Style, the overlinking guidelines, and (based on other conversations) SURPRISE and LEAD conventions, you should not be creating all of these redirects, and you are saying we need to start colour-coding our links better. In other words, you're missing the bloody point. Primefac (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

missing the point... there's already a facility for colour coding. My intuition was, "it is surprising that we fret about overlinking". There must be a way to improve the system such that contributing information is never a problem. Fmadd (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

No Primefac, I think you're the one missing the point. If we wrote a script that flipped all our articles around for us, then we could write everything backwards, and it would automatically fix it. But instead you want to be close minded and demand that we conform to your cult of directionality. TimothyJosephWood 19:06, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

nice straw man there. I'm talking about colour coding (which already exists) not writing articles backwards. Fmadd (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

You sure are. TimothyJosephWood 19:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

• Fmadd, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the central point here, which has nothing whatsoever to do with color coding. The concern is that redirects you are creating should not exist at all and you are adding unnecessary links in articles. You may be surprised that this is a real concern, but it is, and brushing it off by suggesting the rest of us use a script or whatever to mitigate it is not the correct response. You don't have to agree with the concern, but you are expected to respect the established policy and consensus on this issue. If you'd like to change the overlinking policy you are welcome to try, but unless and until such an effort is succesful you should abide by it. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Fmadd, I agree with Beeblebrox. I'm going to ask you to stop adding links and creating redirects against current policy. You are very welcome to argue for changes in those policies, and to propose changes to the software to allow multi coloured links to facilitate those changes. But until you achieve a consensus that those policies should change, you must comply with them. Deliberately editing in contravention of policies just because you don't agree with them is disruptive. If you continue to do so, you will blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. WJBscribe (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I also think Fmadd just needs to slow it way down in general. They are editing so fast it is impossible to conceive that they are really thinking things through. I see formatting errors and creation of double redirects in just their last few edits, with no sign that they are even aware of them. There's no rush, and it's always better to think about what you are doing before you do it. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox: I rather fear that the double redirects are intentional, not accidental creations - see my comment below... WJBscribe (talk) 01:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I've left them a warning. Regardless of if they're right or wrong (though they're wrong) editing practices should be checked until a resolution is reached. Primefac (talk) 00:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's another example of the sort of problem this is creating - see Remote_control_(general). This appears to have been created by Fmadd on the basis that it will one day be a page with content (despite the fact that the disambiguator "(general)" is not used). See incoming links: Numerous articles have had their links changed to point to Remote_control_(general). In addition several redirects have been changed to point to that page, apparently to deliberately create double redirects. This seems to be part of a master plan to restructure our articles about Remote controls and related topics. But instead of getting consensus to change that structure first, Fmadd has created a "web of redirects" to accommodate his vision of how the articles should be structured. WJBscribe (talk) 01:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

As a note, I reinstated the declined speedy and cleaned up that mess. Triple redirects! WTF. Primefac (talk) 01:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• A thought regarding this incredibly disruptive editing - their edits have to be undone individually; we can't just unlink all links to their silly redirects because they used to point to valid targets... what a friggin nightmare. Primefac (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

  I've read some (not all) of the discussions with Fmadd, and my take is that this is a user who not only doesn't get it, he doesn't want to get it. He's even trotted out that old saw, the cabal of admins, in the form of a "priestly cult". Frankly, I don't believe more argumentation with him is going to stop him doing what he intends to do, so I think it's time for admins to consider a sanction of some sort to stop him. My first choice would be an indef block that would not be lifted until he promised to undo the mess he made, but more kind-hearted souls might prefer a topic ban on creating redirects and making wikilinks - I just feel it's likely that he wouldn't follow it, and we'd be back at an indef block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) see below. Primefac (talk) 02:20, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Question 1: block or no?

Slight edit conflict with BMK above, but good timing I guess. First question is easy - if Fmadd refuses to accept the requests made here to alter their behaviour, do we block, or just impose a tban on creating redirects (i.e. a page-creation ban)? Primefac (talk) 02:20, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• tban on page creation. I think a while actually making productive edits will allow Fmadd to see why we do things the way we do. After six months or so they're welcome to request the return of their page-creation abilities. Primefac (talk) 02:22, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Blocked per their replies here. If this discussion "destroyed their faith in humanity" Misplaced Pages probably isn't for them. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Question 2: all those pesky redirects

Fmadd has made a pretty big mess. The question becomes what to do about their past editing history. I see two main options.

Proposal 1 (slap on the wrist)

Fmadd's past redirect actions are (mostly) overlooked. Interested parties are welcome to comb through them and RFD/delete/edit/restructure as desired, but no "official" action takes place.

Proposal 2 (more involved response)

Fmadd's edits are all looked over by some sort of task force. Unnecessary redirects (such as Particle physics experiment and India gained independence) are deleted and the pages that linked to them are reverted to their pre-redirect status.

• Support and willing to help out. There are just too many ridiculous redirects to tie up at RFD. I think a well-documented task force page (similar to the SvG case) would allow for transparency and some measure of REFUND should a reasonable redirect be deleted. Primefac (talk) 02:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• This is pretty much where we are at. Their stubborn refusal to even try and see the issue has now earned them a block, but there's still a mess to clean up. Beeblebrox (talk)
• I will freely admit that I don't understand Fmadd's master plan, so I'd be useless in trying to help undo it - but let me ask this: is it not possible to simply run down his edits in the opposite order from which they were made, and arrive at a state before Fmass started his work? Yes, surely we would lose some edits which were actual improvements, but that seems like a small price to pay. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:02, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Beyond My Ken, I wanted to propose a "nuclear" Proposal 3 wherein we do just that - roll back everything, delete everything, and pick up the pieces afterwards. I wasn't sure how well that would be taken, so I didn't propose it. I suppose the worst that can happen is it isn't acceptable, so I'll do so now. Primefac (talk) 12:26, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 3 (nuclear option)

Roll back all edits, delete all pages. Small team to go through and undelete the few pages that might have been useful.

• I would support this if it was changed a little bit:

1. List all created pages in userspace

2. Roll back all edits that were not on pages this user created

3. Review all pages in the userspace

4. Delete all unapproved pages in the userspace

We did the same thing with wp:x1 (with the exception of number 2), and it worked well, I think the same approach will work here. Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 14:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

That would work. I've already started compiling a list at User:Primefac/Fmadd. I completely agree with rolling back all of their mainspace edits, since 99% of the time it appears all they were doing was creating a link to an odd redirect. Primefac (talk) 14:30, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

In relation to point 2, I should note that Fmadd is sometimes correct that the links should be changed. The problem is that many did not need changing or, if they did, he often made the problem worse. We will lose some useful work if we mass revert his edits instead of reviewing each of them, but I estimate only about 10% based on what I've looked at in relation to Remote control. For example, there were some instances in which he changed articles that linked to that page when they would more naturally refer to Teleoperation (i.e. the process of controlling electronics from a distance, not the device that enables someone to do it). However, instead of linking directly to Teleoperation, he redirected Remote controlled to Teleoperation (which probably makes sense and shouldn't be reverted), and linked to that redirect (which doesn't). WJBscribe (talk) 14:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

WJBscribe, I concur that there is a small proportion of their edits that were actually useful, but given that I spent an hour untangling the "remote control" issue last night and ended up only keeping four edits out of about 100, I'd say in this case we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, if only for the sanity of those draining the tub. Primefac (talk) 14:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I concur with Primfac, Gamebuster19901, and WJBscribe. This is the best option. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 15:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, I support the nuclear option, given the downside seems so low. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Discussion on the above questions and proposals

Fmadd, I guess this is the part where I ask you if you're willing to take into consideration the views expressed in this discussion as well as on the various talk pages you've been involved with. To summarize a few of the points:

• Decrease the number of redirects you create. Start discussions to see if they're necessary. Pipe otherwise.
• Slow down on the editing. Thing don't need to happen immediately. Finding out an idea isn't the best after two days is a lot easier to deal with if you then don't have to go back and fix fifty pages afterwards.
• Start discussions. Yes, I mentioned this above, but this goes for things like moving remote control unilaterally. Consider all page moves to be potentially contentious, and ask if it's a good idea first.

There are other points mentioned above, but these are the major ones. Does this sound reasonable? Primefac (talk) 02:29, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

well I can take a break from this, and amuse myself somewhere else for a while. I'm not going to stay focussed on making major changes if it takes several days of discussion.. I just wont bother. thats why I liked blasting my way through one issue at a time. If you dont like redirects then my workflow can't be used here. I might as well give up. Thanks for destroying what little faith in humanity I had.. they're just redirects.. and you have to get all "priestly-cult"/"control freak" over it. The point of redirects (or any other abstractions) is breaking problems down into smaller pieces, at which point solutions crystallise out more easily. Tension in "the plan" or ambiguity is just a sign of something else to fix. I've seen this situation many times before. Some people have more to gain from problems, than solutions. Fmadd (talk) 02:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, that's enough. Deploying block hammer. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:46, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) If Fmadd hasn't been here before under another name, I'll eat my aussie hat. Flat Out (talk) 02:53, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

He seems fond of the "priestly cult" meme - anyone recall another editor using that? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

"Easier to make mass changes and argue later" seems to be a hallmark, this is their work too Flat Out (talk) 03:29, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• As much as I've been opposed to similar solutions in the past, I'm really leaning toward the nuclear option, at least on anything that's purely a redirect. Looking through several pages of their creations, they seems to be an attempt to...I guess...manually create a search function? Probably fully a quarter of them are created as questions e.g., "should X redirect to Y?" or "is A the proper term for B?" I'm just not seeing much in the way of harmful collateral damage that would in any way outweigh the inordinate amount of time it would take to sort through these individually. TimothyJosephWood 13:20, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

We could expand wp:x1 to include redirects created by this user. Just an idea I thought should be mentioned. Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 13:37, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. The main question in my mind, and I really don't know precisely how this works with the admin bit, but if all article creations are nuke-able with the click of a button, is there anything worth saving in the ~9% of their article creations that are not redirects, which would justify having to tag and delete 950 redirects. TimothyJosephWood 13:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I won't support or oppose nuking everything outright without a review, but if it comes to it, I wouldn't get upset about it. I've added a different proposal under the Nuke proposal. Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 14:13, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

New Speedy Deletion Criteria in Response

Since there seems to be consensus at this time to revert these edits, and issues VERY similar to this have happened before (see wp:X1) I am proposing a new speedy deletion criteria.

X3: Pages created en-masse by a single user, where the community has established broad consensus that the pages are harmful to the encyclopedia, would create significant backlogs in their deletion discussion areas, and the reviewing admin believes that it will not survive a deletion discussion. Once the community establishes that the backlog is cleared, normal procedures resume.

It is similar to wp:x1, except it can be applied to more situations so we don't have to keep creating new X criteria. X1 would be merged into X3.

Deletions reasons made under this criteria should contain a link to the discussion where consensus was established, and say "TYPE OF PAGE" created by "USER", to distinguish what situation the pages were deleted in. A list of situations where this criteria has been used should be created.

Example of deletion message: "Redirects created by User:Example, see discussion.

Gamebuster19901 (Talk║Contributions) 18:10, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd support that. I should have the full list of redirects soon, which would give an indication of how much this criteria would be needed. Primefac (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This is more of a procedural point, but wouldn't this really be an expansion of X1 rather than the creation of a new criteria? TimothyJosephWood 18:26, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support the creation of a X3 criteria for his redirects, and DAB pages. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Help Wanted- Close of contentious RfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A third uninvolved admin or experienced editor is needed to help close the Secondary School RfC. Please go to this discussion at WP:AN to volunteer. Anyone should feel free to close this thread as soon as we have the close team filled. Thanks... -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:43, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Slow-mo edit-warring/gaming the system on Shotgun slug

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For about three weeks now Winged Brick has been edit-warring against multiple other editors on Shotgun slug to get their own personal interpretation of a source into the article, in spite of a discussion on the article talk page clearly showing that other editors do not support the edit. Having made dozens of reverts so far (see page history, which shows the extent of it better than a few diffs), and gaming the system by always making sure they don't exceed the three reverts per 24 hours rule, a rule they're well aware of since there are multiple edit-warring warnings on their talk page.

Since they never exceed the magical three reverts per 24 hours there's no point in reporting them at WP:AN3, but the behaviour is unacceptable and needs to stop. - Tom | Thomas.W 21:20, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

This was reported at ANEW: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive336#User:Winged_Brick_reported_by_User:Andy_Dingley_.28Result:_.29 but was ignored. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:26, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Note: You can most definitely be engaged in edit warring without breaking the three-revert rule. They are not the same. I JethroBT 21:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Three reverts per 24 hours isn't so magical. Blocked for 48 hours for slow edit warring against multiple editors, with no indication that they'll ever stop. Bishonen | talk 21:40, 15 February 2017 (UTC).

@I JethroBT: I know, the chance of action being taken at the edit-warring noticeboard is very slim, though, when reporting someone who hasn't exceeded the magical three reverts (see Andy's comment above), which is why I reported it here and not there. (Thanks for swift action, Bish!) - Tom | Thomas.W 21:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

MarekValenti

User:MarekValenti has recently made edits to Talk:Neutral country and Talk:Battle of Singapore that appear to be similar to banned user User:HarveyCarter. In the case of the Battle of Singapore they appear to be purely provocative, as he states that Japan ended European colonialism and that Britain had abandoned colonialism in 1941. My apologies if this is the wrong forum.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This link MarekValenti (talk · contribs) will make it a little easier to check on this. MarnetteD|Talk 04:13, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Definitely looks like Harvey. Writing style is similar too. 2600:1017:B020:6C63:E94A:120F:7491:7663 (talk) 06:02, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps opening an WP:SPI would be a better place for this? See here for the sockpuppet page. TheMagikCow (talk) 12:37, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

archive.is refspamming

For previous see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Archive.is RFC.

172.94.3.46 , , , , , etc.

An IP has linkspamming archive.is into Greene's Tutorial College. All links in the references had been replaced. Live links are being replaced as well as dead ones. Examples of live links that were replaced include , , , . duffbeerforme (talk) 04:29, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I think we should revisit the idea of a blacklist, because it doesn't seem like this has ever gone away. --Tarage (talk) 04:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Categories that supposedly do not help foster encyclopedic collaboration

VegaDark has nominated a swathe of supposedly unencyclopedic categories for deletion at the little-trafficked Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion, see Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 February 8, all with the rationale "Violates WP:USERCAT in that this category does not help foster encyclopedic collaboration" and some further remarks. Examples: Category:Users who donate blood plasma ("Additionally, this uses the incorrect "users" instead of "Wikipedians""), Category:Wikipedians who are "out to get you" and/or your garage band ("Seems to be some sort of joke category"), Category:Wikipedians interested in fighting unemployment ("Users who are serious about actually collaborating on improving content can create and join Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to unemployment"), and Category:Wikipedians who wish LHvU would come back ("I don't know what LHvU is, but it's completely irrelevant"). Apparently users who have these categories on their own pages don't get alerted that the cat is being proposed for deletion, at least Bishzilla wasn't told about the "wish LHvU would come back". Oh, and I now see they're definitely not: VegaDark resented it as "disruptive canvassing" when a user undertook to ping the six members of the category Wikipedians who support a Federal Europe: "We should be polling community consensus, not the consensus of those who already self-selected to be in the category, which is not representative of the community as a whole". VegaDark certainly makes a reasonable point about the self-selection, but on the other hand: is it a group "representative of the community as a whole" that patrols the CfD board? I'm not sure. Maybe I caught it on a bad day, but it looks to me like there's a preponderence of people who're against social interaction between Wikipedians, on principle, and for the deletion of all categories that merely foster that.

I want to lodge a protest in this, more widely read, forum, because I believe social interaction between content writers is good for the project. I resent VegaDarks broad hint that people who have a few more-or-less jokey cats on their userpage are not serious about actually collaborating on improving content ("Users who are serious about actually collaborating on improving content can create and join Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to unemployment"). We are! Drmies put it more eloquently than I can, in the discussion of "Wikipedians who wish LHvU would come back": "I would argue that this does, indeed, foster collaboration, if only because it unites us in our yearning for a more innocent past when we all sat down, smoked the herb together, and wrote up a ton of articles. In other words, keep." So does LessHeard vanU himself, who, now that he's able to say exactly what he thinks, expresses himself fruitily, and also points out that "People who live in the real world understand that shared foolishness fosters feelings of companionablism (damn you spellcheck) and shared experience - which is most useful when faced with the cloying baggage of bean counters and self appointed guardians of the soul-less compendium that this project was never intended to be." I endorse that. I wish some more of us would watch CfD. Bishonen | talk 11:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC).

• There are two aspects to this- the questions being, do these catagories it help or hinder the encyclopaedia? Briefly, as to helping, it could be argued that they do. Not necessarilly in the material sense; but, if (as Drmies touched on, above) they foster a sense of collegiality or, dare I say- pace WP:NOTWEBHOST- a sense of collaboration and comradeship, then that can only be beneficial to the project. Then, do they hurt the project? Clearly not. And the only editors they exclude are those- as in every other catagory- who wish to be excluded. I think this is a casebook for WP:IAR. O Fortuna! 12:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• I think the proposed deletions are a misguided attempt to make WP more professional. The point that is missed is that in even the most rigorous workplaces we still bring in cookies for our coworkers, celebrate birthdays and babies, stand and talk for a few minutes about our kids, pets, former colleagues we miss, the cold that's going around the office ... These categories fall under the getting-to-know-your-colleagues process that fosters loyalty, cooperation, compassion and camaraderie. If people didn't do that at my company I'd be worried. We can't adopt a grim humorless "why aren't you people at your desks working!?" attitude - we're all volunteers. Acroterion (talk) 13:13, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Acroterion, I did indeed bring cookies...hold on...I have Lemonades, Peanut Butter Patties, Caramel Delites, and a box of Thin Mints. $4, and I accept transfers to my off-shore Misplaced Pages account. Drmies (talk) 16:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks, I'll check in the break room when I finish with this afternoon's project submission. I'll take the Thin Mints, please. Acroterion (talk) 18:28, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• This seems sad and although I don't like being rude, a bit ridiculous. Acroterion may well be right about it being an attempt to make userpages more professional, but let's face it, those are the last things readers will see, and people have enough fun, silly, sometimes annoying stuff at the top of their user pages. As Bish says, we need shared foolishness - this place can be difficult enough at times, sometimes damn depressing, and if these categories get a chuckle, more power to them I say! To argue that they do "not help foster encyclopedic collaboration" or are "not useful for fostering cooperation" misses the point completely. And if they are "joke categories", a term used as a reason to delete, what's wrong with a joke? Another reason given for deletion is just plain wrong: "no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia." Seriously? No one is going to look at these categories and say "that person looks interesting, I might want to work with them". IAR! IAR! IAR!. Doug Weller talk 15:11, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• I too am against deletion of any of them, unless they're overtly polemic (which none of the examples above are.) I also think this is another one of these things where we're really over-estimating how much the general reader looks into these things. Almost all of these sorts of things (categories on user pages) are going to go unnoticed by the vast majority of editors even, let alone your casual readers. We need to focus on much bigger issues on the encyclopedia, not minor harmless instances of navel gazing like this... Sergecross73 msg me 15:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Seconding Doug Weller's comments. Allowing non-harmful (even if non-helpful) material for users' pages like these categories or like userboxes encourages community involvement, sense of belonging, and hopefully increase user retention. It's like being able to personalize your cubical at work. Minimal harm, likely benefits, overall net positive to the project. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:27, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Wow, nearly a decade on and we're still fighting the same battles - see the various Wikipedian category redirects deleted at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/User/Archive/October 2007 (where I note VegaDark features heavily). I am mostly depressed by the lost time spend debating, deleting, (re)creating and (re?)debating these categories. They are harmless and there are clearly a lot of contributors who would like to keep them. @VegaDark: Have you really spent a decade crusading against Wikipedian categories? Please can we end this timesink and leave them alone? WJBscribe (talk) 15:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• I think Category:Wikipedians who are "out to get you" and/or your garage band is genuinely funny. Obviously should not be deleted. Bus stop (talk) 15:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Is this related to the recent attempts to get rid of redlinked usercats? There was a long discussion about it somewhere. If the cat people want to make Misplaced Pages look more professional, they could perhaps start by putting their heads together to see if there is a better way of notifying affected people/articles when cats are proposed for deletion. The current system is fairly underhand.

  As for the point directly raised here, keep them for the reasons others have already said. - Sitush (talk) 15:43, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I don't really see how this is necessarily an incident, as much as it is a larger discussion regarding these categories. I can certainly see the reasoning behind nominating them. DarkKnight2149 15:43, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• I am beginning to feel better already. The categories are indeed harmless, and, all in all, create a positive "work-environment" (at least imho). One might even think of a Halo effect by this so-called silliness. Lectonar (talk) 15:46, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• No breaks! Coffee is for closers! If you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean! Do more with less! Give 110% every day! Seriously, I don't think anyone would want to be a volunteer in a work environment where all fun and humor is totally eliminated.--WaltCip (talk) 15:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• I'm not surprised that a small group of editors trying to set and then implement policy as to what any user can put on their userpage has ended up here. I first came across this at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 December 16#Category:Wikipedians who don't GAF when the category turned pink on my userpage. I've been following the subsequent discussion; it seems there is a feeling among some editors that allowing users to categorize themselves however they feel makes it difficult to maintain the category system (e.g. , ), although I haven't seen a convincing explanation as to why. I asked what "lists of categories" this supposedly disrupts but I did not get a response. Personally I don't care what categories a user decides to place their userpage in nor whether or not those categories actually exist, so long as those categories aren't deliberately harmful. I'm not at all opposed to insisting on a structure for these categories (they should perhaps all be children of Category:Wikipedians or whatever) but I don't like the idea of any small group of users opining on what is or is not beneficial to encyclopedic collaboration, nor imposing that opinion on the entire project. I'm also pro-foolishness, in case anyone didn't already know that, and yes, I will enjoy your observation about having an opinion in a discussion about not giving a fuck.

Side note: Cydebot deleted this category with a link to the incorrect day's log. Bug? Ivanvector (/_Edits) 15:50, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• I facepalmed when I saw people nominating these categories for deletion with the rationale that they don't help the encyclopedia. I literally facepalmed. Because -not to put anyone on blast but it needs to be said- that is one of the most phenomenally ignorant rationales. Anything that makes WP more fun helps the encyclopedia, end of. This isn't an opinion or a judgement; this is a fact which can be confirmed by 99.9% of the population in general, and by 99.99% of all psychologists, sociologist and psychiatrists in detail. What about that remaining 0.1% and 0.01%? They're the ones !voting to delete these categories.

Anyone who cannot recognize that should read robot and human and write up a 5000 word report comparing and contrasting the two, because I strongly suspect you don't appreciate the difference fully. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Alternative proposal - Create Category:Categories that supposedly do not help foster encyclopedic collaboration, add the whole lot to it, give OP a barnstar for giving us a good inside joke, and call it a day. TimothyJosephWood 17:31, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - Wow, an AN/I post about this? Fist I get attacked out of the blue for a good faith nomination, now this? One need only look through my deleted contributions to see I've been making similar nominations for years, and I'm very proud of the user category work that I've done. I'm trying to follow our very own guideline over at WP:USERCAT in order to foster a more encyclopedic environment, similar to why we implemented Misplaced Pages:Userbox migration for templates. In the userspace, however, there is no "User category" namespace. Many of those above seem to think I am trying to stifle your views - that's completely incorrect. This has nothing to do with that - you are free to scream you wish a particular Wikipedian comes back all day long on your userpage - the only issue I have is doing so by way of a user category which violates our guidelines, a guideline I happen to be in full support of. Those who are annoyed with this should focus on changing the guideline that I'm attempting to enforce rather than take issue with me. And for the majority of those commenting above, there is currently an ongoing RfC (although about to be closed) that presented the option that several of you are encouraging (i.e. not directly requiring that user categories need to improve the encyclopedia). That option had virtually zero support. Based on that, the majority of positions so far expressed here represent a minority viewpoint as to what our policy on user categories should be, unless everyone above is simply arguing WP:IAR (IAR only applies when the result improves the encyclopedia, so I would strongly disagree that is the case here or with any of the user categories I nominate). If you want to open up a wider discussion about changing our policies on user categories, great! Again, I will stress that this should be taken up with changing policy rather than taking it up with me personally. That's like attacking the district attorney who prosecutes a case where the current law has been violated and you're a group suggesting that the law should be changed. Take it up with the legislature, please. VegaDark (talk) 17:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• A guideline is not policy. And if people haven't picked up on your years of work on usercats that might say more for how the notification system (doesn't) work well and the ghetto-like nature of those interested in cats than it does about the WP community at large. - Sitush (talk) 18:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
• Did someone mention userboxes? I thought they were all deleted back in 2005. Thincat (talk) 18:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Single-purpose account promoting geocentrist and paleo-Catholic Robert Sungenis

Joe6Pack (talk · contribs) is a single-purpose account whose sole purpose on Misplaced Pages has been to advocate for Robert Sungenis's peculiar beliefs. He has been doing this in contravention of many different Misplaced Pages policies in spite of having them explained to them continues to insist that he should be able to whitewash and include only promotional material at the articles related to his pet subject.

I submit literally his entire contribution history as evidence of this. As a flavor for his promotionalism, see, e.g., this.

jps I do not think this user's activities are conducive to WP:ENC.

If a movie about the Copernican Principle is characterized a a movie about geoicentrism, I would argue that that isnot conducive to WP:ENC. Encyclopedias should be factual.16:31, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

jps (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Joe6Pack (talk · contribs) Appears to have been editing Robert Sungenis's page since the 9th of this month, his accounts first edit was 4 years ago, nor has he only edited geocentrist and paleo-Catholic Robert Sungenis as far as I can tell. It may be the bilk of his edits (I will let others look into that) but that does not make his account a sole purpose one.Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

That is not true. I participate in other articles also. I made changes due to BP:WLP issues, and have an open case on the WP:BLP noticeboard for the Robert Sungenis article. Joe6Pack (talk) 16:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Here is the link to the noticeboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Robert_Sungenis Joe6Pack (talk) 16:28, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Correcting false statements (in the case of your statement that The Principle is a film about geocentrism when in fact it is about The Copernican Principle) is not "whitewashing". I allowed the statement that it considers geocentrism because in fact geocentrists were interviewed (as were standard model scientists). 16:28, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This is just the same-old bullshit from people who are deep in rabbit holes of their own pet theories. "It's not geocentrism, it's rejecting the Copernican Principle!" might as well be the new, "It's not creationism; it's intelligent design!" Only with people who think the Sun revolves around the Earth. In any case, not conducive to effective encyclopedia editing. jps (talk) 16:32, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Can you just stick the the accusation of a SPA and not move the content dispute here? I think both users interaction with each other needs looking into.Slatersteven (talk) 16:33, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Am I not permitted to defend against charges? His accusation is based on the dispute, which just started today. He did not even try discussing with me. Joe6Pack (talk) 16:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Of course you are allowed to, but it is not the best tack to take. You are better of arguing against (and providing evidence) that his assertions you are an SPa and that he has (literally) provided your whole edit history are false.Slatersteven (talk) 16:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

M+By the way, the charge is being a SPASlatersteven (talk) 16:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Joe6Pack would have great difficulty demonstrating that he is not a SPA. He doesn't have to edit only the Sungenis article to be a SPA. His editing history shows that he edits related articles and related topics and has been on a crusade since he started editing here. He's pretty much WP:NOTHERE. Rather, he is here to pursue his own personal agenda.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe, I just found it interesting (and maybe telling) that he has not only edited pages on this subject (and for awhile (well a day) seemed obsessed with the woman's march (over 10 edits in one day). I think it is more a sign of an edd who gets bee's in his bonnet. It is clear he has a special interest in the Copernican Principle film yes. I am not sure that adds up to a SPA.Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

NOTE: Slatersteven (talk · contribs) and I don't get along because I consider him to be too incompetent to make meaningful contributions. He generally follows me from place to place making a nuisance of himself. jps (talk) 16:55, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Excuse me? I follow you around? Maybe I had a conflict with you before, but I certainly do not recall it. Joe6Pack (talk) 17:14, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

What subject areas are you accusing me of being incompetent? Are you going to go to the Talk page and discuss? Joe6Pack (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Mmmm, maybe not an SPA but I think the accusation of WP:NOTHERE is a valid one, end of my "defense" I think, I think you lost this one 6er.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Paid editor moving own drafts to mainspace

Early today I wrote at User talk:Janweh64 "Misplaced Pages, for reasons that I just can't understand, tolerates paid/COI editing in draft space. But where exactly do we say that paid editors can then freely move their own drafts into mainspace? As a paid editor, "you are very strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly". But by creating a draft and then moving it yourself, you are effectively doing exactly that. I've moved Matt Holmes (entrepreneur), Himanshu Khagta, Legs4Africa, Miss Tara and KDDL Limited back to draft space. If and when you think they are ready to be included in this encyclopaedia, please submit them in the normal way."

Janweh64 had written those pages in draft space, with an apparently proper declaration of paid COI, but then instead of submitting them for review, just went ahead and moved them. The editor has not troubled to reply to my post (and indeed, is under no obligation to do so), but since moved two of those five drafts, Miss Tara and KDDL Limited, back to mainspace. While I don't see that any hard-and-fast rule (that I know of, anyway) has been broken, this appears to be highly inappropriate behaviour for a paid editor. At the very least, I suggest moving those pages to draft space for now. If others agree that the behaviour is inappropriate, a page move ban might be considered. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

It is my belief that I have not violated any policy as stated above. However, moving articles to draft space is a move to circumvent the readily available avenue for addressing this issue which is to nominate such pages for deletion. Justlettersandnumbers has essentially achieved their goal of deleting these articles without any consensus or input from other editors. I believe the inappropriate behavior is theirs. I have made every effort to follow the policies.—አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 17:08, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

You should not move articles into mainspace when you have a COI. You should request review as the template allows for. You absolutely should not move an article back to mainspace after it's been moved back to Draft. Misplaced Pages is a volunteer-run, charity-funded project. Writing for profit is already evil. Overriding the judgment of others like that? It will just get you banninated. Guy (Help!)

Guy, can you please explain what you mean. Where do I place said template when the page does not exist.—አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Wait, I get it now. Can you please return the articles to draft space so I may request the edits on the draft talk pages so that a volunteer may evaluate them. I am sure that they are notable per WP:MUSICBIO criterion #2, WP:LISTED and WP:ORGDEPTH. They do not qualify for speedy deletion per WP:G11.—አቤል ዳዊት(Janweh64) (talk) 18:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Is that the policy? Is it forbidden for a paid editor to move an article from draft to article space? Sir Joseph 18:52, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

WP:COI - content should be left to people without a conflict. Fine to create a draft, fine to request review and posting to mainspace, bad idea to move to mainspace yourself, terrible, terrible idea to edit-war back into mainspace after it's moved back to daft. That's not especially controversial I think. Guy (Help!) 18:57, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Steve salis

The article Steve Salis was speedy deleted three times and protected from creation this month, it has recently been recreated with a lower case "s" in the title Steve salis in order to circumvent the protection, can an admin take look please. Theroadislong (talk) 16:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Personally would suggest an AfD because by this point it is well past CSD criteria and previous deletes by CSD are not reason for deletion I'm afraid. If it fails AfD then any recreations can be deleted and salted... Just a non admin opinion EoRdE6 18:26, 16 February 2017 (UTC)