Misplaced Pages

Mystar - if you can provide me with absolutely any proof that you actually talked to an admin, and you aren't just making stuff up, I'll totally leave you alone for a week, you can post whatever you want. In fact, I'll even vote that the T'lan Imass page should be deleted. I really look forward to this. Did you find the term 'fancruft' on the wikipedia projects page too? Incidentally, I think you should have discussed your edits before making them, since many people are active on the page. Also incidentally, I think the BwB section should be included, but re-written. How about:

Martin's official fan club, the Brotherhood without Banners, throws parties at conventions Martin attends, most notably at Worldcon and Boskone. Martin has attended some of these parties and praised them highly. The BwB also engages in assorted philanthropic efforts, including charity fundraising. As of September 2006, the organization has over 800 official members listed on its website.

I took out the 'best parties of worldcon' completely 'cause I couldn't find any legitimate source, but the paragraph does include mention that GRRM enjoys the parties. The citation needed gives time for someone knowledgeable to track down a reference for the fundraising - I don't think the bwbfanclub website really counts (sorry!). I think the fancruft tag should be removed - the entry is brief, referenced, and does discuss the importance the fanclub seems to have to GRRM. Also, it's not really fancruft since it's not fictional. The fancruft (apologies for the link, you'll have to follow disambiguation I think) page says:

As with most of the issues of importance and notability in Misplaced Pages, there is no firm policy on the inclusion of obscure branches of popular culture subjects. It is true that things labeled fancruft are often deleted from Misplaced Pages. This is primarily due to the fact that things labeled as fancruft are often poorly written, unreferenced, unwikified, and non-neutral - all things that lead to deletion. Such articles may also fall foul of Misplaced Pages's policy against creating "indiscriminate collections of information". Well-referenced and well-written articles on obscure topics are from time to time deleted as well, but such deletions are controversial. It is also worth noting that many articles on relatively obscure topics are featured articles. Generally speaking, the perception that an article is fancruft can be a contributing factor in its nomination and deletion, but it is not the actual reason for deletion. Rather, the term fancruft is a shorthand for content which one or more editors consider unencyclopaedic, possibly to the extent of violating policies on verifiability, neutrality or original research. Generally speaking, the perception that an article is fancruft can be a contributing factor in its nomination and deletion, but it is not the actual reason for deletion. Rather, the term fancruft is a shorthand for content which one or more editors consider unencyclopaedic, possibly to the extent of violating policies on verifiability, neutrality or original research.

So, it's well written, referenced, and I guess it's wikified. It's neutral, verifiable, and not original research. Unlike High D'Haran, which is just a listing of terms and nothing new, and could easily be replaced by a link to the geocities page in the original D'Haran wikipage. To my mind, not fancruft, should not be tagged, and illustrates an important fact - GRRM's excellent relationship with his fans. Just my opinions, any thoughts? How about replacing the paragraph with what I wrote, or something similar. WLU 23:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Please guys, let's all keep this civil and not bring in other disputes from other articles. I don't have any significant problems with WLU's replacement paragraph. Does that seem acceptible to everyone? Maybe I'll look for a reference on the charity claim and we can plug that up as well. -Captain Crawdad 00:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to echo Captain Crawdad on civility. The implications regarding Mystar's honesty aren't particularly productive, though a neutral request for information about his previous discussions would be appropriate; I'm curious as well.

Otherwise, I think WLU is spot-on. The essay on fancruft is just that: an essay, not a policy or guideline. It's a good way to summarize attitudes to a topic, but it's not binding or generally-followed in any real sense. (Besides, I've never seen a definition of fancruft that includes this kind of material.) I'm generally loath to remove well-written, properly referenced, at-least-moderately relevant content from any article, since I don't see how an encyclopedia like this one is improved by taking material out of it, though others of course have other standards. I'm fine with WLU's paragraph. Brendan Moody 02:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The "Best of Worldcon" thing is sort of complicated. Every day, the organizing committe of Worldcon prints a few thousand newsletters- the Worldcon Gazette or something like that. They put them under the doors of attendes and have a big stack for anyone to pick up. On Saturday and Sunday, the Gazette names a best party of the previous night, naming one of them the best of Worldcon. There's not a trophy or anything like that, but it's an actual award with some fairly heady competition. Anyone who has been to Worldcon can attest to this, and I'd bet there are people on Misplaced Pages who have one of these lying around their home. However, it's unlikely that you'll find this on the Internet (if you want to poke around the Noreason site, be my guest for a bunch of different reasons, primarily that Worldcon leadership tends to be somewhat old-fashioned and doesn't have the mania for archiving everything online that we Young Turks seem to subscribe to. I'm for including the specific "best of" reference, but that's only because I saw the write-up with my own eyes and know that it's 100% true.

Also, I added a link to the Child's Play site. The BWB logo is in the "gold sponsors" section- it's the first entry on the third line. Stilgar135 02:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you find more charity links? Just one is OK, several is way better. At this point, given the proof that you have for the 'best of' argument, I'm still uncomfortable saying it, I don't know what the status of personal endorsement is, but it'd be hypocritical of me to agree to it here. It's an unfortunate fact that stuff we know to be true can't really be included unless it can be linked or referenced. WLU 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Awesome I'm thrilled that you can cut and paste WLU! Good on you eh! Were I to have logged my conversation I would gladly have shared it I did however discuss it on the Misplaced Pages IRC channel where we are allowed to ask for admin help I did discuss it with bastique. While bastique did not make any suggestions for any actions of any judgment (as I asked for none) the term fits and is applicable. Fancruft is a term sometimes used in Misplaced Pages to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question. While "fancruft" is often a succinct and frank description of such accumulations, it also implies that the content is unimportant and the contributor's judgment of notability is lacking.

The use of the term implies that an editor does not regard the material in question as encyclopedic, either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan......the subject of the article in question is not notable except to hardcore fans; for example

In short the material is non-encyclopedic. Seriously I'm thrilled at the charity giving of such a group! I would offer up a hearty kudos! But the page is not about touting the actions of a few fanatics. It is not encyclopedic. Place it on the BwoB page by all means, but also keep in mind Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

You have a strong personal involvement in this page; however, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which can be difficult. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising. If you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views you could also use Wikinfo.

The point being is that unless the material is changed it falls into that category... and using the term "fandom" is neither encyclopedic nor is it neutral. Mystar 02:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar, I'm not sure what your justification is for removing this info beyond your assertion that it is "non-encyclopedic". I've provided an example showing that the activities of a fan organization, including mention of charitable actions, is considered acceptable enough for a "good" rating on the artist's article. Doesn't that show precedent that the information is encyclopedic by Misplaced Pages's standards?

I do agree that the term "Fandom" should be changed. The Phish article uses "Fan activities" and I see nothing wrong with that. I'll also suggest moving the section down to below the "Awards" section. -Captain Crawdad 05:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Fan activities, move it around both sound good. I still think this is a good page for it, unless someone wants to set up a BwB wiki page, but I don't know how comfortable I'd feel about that, I can't say I think it falls into 'noteworthy'. I like ths short, what, two paragraph summary but if more people feel strongly about removing it, I'm not going to die if it's pulled.WLU 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, first off I like the changes WLU made to the Fandom section, especially how it focuses on Martin's activities. Second, I renamed the section "Fan relationship" since "Fandom" isn't much of a word and "Fan activities no longer applies to the section's focus. I'm not thrilled with the title, so if someone has a better idea, go for it. Third, I stuck his stance on fan fiction into this section, since it seemed to go along with his fan interactions. Fourth, I stuck a heading on his biography. -Captain Crawdad 20:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Fan Groups" or "Following"? NeoFreak 23:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Relationship to Fanbase"?WLU 11:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Well here is the problem. It now reads like an advert for BwoB's parties! No offence but it sounds and looks wrong. It is poorly worded. Actually it reads like a propaganda piece. Lets not extend into an area that simply will not fit the confines of Wiki policy just because someone wants to see a reference about parties.... A Bio page is not a soap Box to wax about who has a better party. I'm sorry it simply will not work.

Why don't you suggest some edits and we'll all have a look at them, that seems fair.WLU 11:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The questions we must ask are these,

1. 1 Why is the "and gives great parties there?
2. 2 Is this website really an authoritative source for an encyclopedia: http://www.bwbfanclub.com/fr_grrm.php, ?
3. 3 Can we really cite fan club for a NPOV account of itself?
4. 4 Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? (Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, and it wholly appears that this is not only biased and POV driven (Self-serving), but again non encyclopedic)

We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias.

The whole "and gives great parties" isn't speaking to the content of the page, it is speaking to something someone else is doing and is not a part of an encyclopedic page. It reads poorly and it has no real place on the page.

NOW acting in good faith, rather that my placing a tag or deleting it all together and not fixing the offending section, I'll give people a few days to work on it and edit it appropriately. Mystar 03:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

1. The topic of the section is Martin's interactions with fans. He attends the parties of his fan club and has written about his enjoyment of them. That's interaction with fans.

2. It's a statement made by Martin about the BwB. Martin is fully aware of the organization, so if the website were printing lies about statements he had made, its very likely that he would find out about it and have it taken down. Therefore, the likelihood that this statement was in fact made by Martin is extremely high.

3. The reference for the charity activities links to the actual charity website, not the BwB. The reference about the parties comes from Martin himself. He either made the statement or he did it, and as I showed above, this is a reliable source proving that he made the statement. The third reference shows the current number of people registered as members of the organization. Where else would you get that information but from the organization's official website?

4. There's no room for bias on any of these three references, as I showed above. The two references we use from the BwB are about the number of its members and proof that Martin made a statement. Either they have that many registered members or they don't. Either Martin made the statement or he didn't. lying about either of these two facts, but if you can hunt down some information that plays counter to the facts that the website presents, they should certainly be listed here. Otherwise, everything is factual and unbiased.

"The whole "and gives great parties" isn't speaking to the content of the page, it is speaking to something someone else is doing and is not a part of an encyclopedic page. It reads poorly and it has no real place on the page."

I assume you're saying that the assertion that Martin has complimented the BwB's great parties is not backed up by the text on the reference because Martin says "At Torcon and again at Noreascon, they were recognized for throwing the best party at worldcon" which would mean that commendations came from the people at Torcon and Noreascon and not him personally. Well, Martin spend the previous paragraph complimenting the parties: "At the Philadelphia worldcon in 2001 a few of them got together, and we had a dinner and a party. It was a pleasant little party, but nothing compared to the ones the Bros have thrown since. I have vague memories of flashing lights, beautiful bartenders, lamprey pies, strip trivia games, Mardi Gras beads, haiku, ice sculptures, three-fisted roisterers and red-faced Irishmen, hot babes in leather cat suits, midnight quests, and strange drinks with stranger names being thrust into my hands. (p) The Bros know how to party. At Torcon and again at Noreascon, they were recognized for throwing the best party at worldcon." I think that it is well within editorial license to distill that long paragraph of descriptive text into a single adjective of "great". If you disagree, we can always nip a direct quote to be perfectly accurate on exactly what Martin has said about the parties. I'm fine with that. -Captain Crawdad 04:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

You also keep missing the main point A fan page is not acceptable reference. But more to the point, what is not in question is that these people party. So what? What is in question is the validity and merit of it being on an author’s bio page. It is not a part of his bio; it is not a part of his work. It is not a part of anything other than a few fans want to get together and get plastered. It has no business being on a bio page. Put it where it belongs...on the BwoB page. Put GRRM's quote there.... where it is applicable.

Mystar 18:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

There are many topics that it would be unacceptible to use a fan club as a reference, however, as I've described above, the way we use the site as a reference is acceptable. Martin made a statement, and they have 800 registered members. There's no POV or interpretation there.

What is in question is the validity and merit of it being on an author’s bio page.

If you'll look to my posts above, you'll see that I cite precedent for putting fan activities on an artist's page. However, the focus of the article as it currently stands is actually about Martin's interaction with fans, including his convention attendance, partying with his fan club, and restriction on fan fiction. Thus, the section is about actions and statements Martin has made. That is pertinent to a bio page. -Captain Crawdad 18:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we should leave it pretty much as is - unless there is a significant amount of text that can be added, I think we've bottomed out on what could be included on BwB and it definitely isn't worth its own page at this point. GRRM gets along well with his fans, they have a presence at conventions, have 800+ members and he doesn't like fanfic. Sounds fine to me, any objections?WLU 18:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope. It looks good to me. NeoFreak 19:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I spoke to mystar, but it was someone else who told him the above referenced information. Not I. Bastiq▼e 19:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

SO! WLU you stated and I quote.... Mystar - if you can provide me with absolutely any proof that you actually talked to an admin, and you aren't just making stuff up, I'll totally leave you alone for a week, you can post whatever you want. In fact, I'll even vote that the T'lan Imass page should be deleted. I really look forward to this. Did you find the term 'fancruft' on the Misplaced Pages projects page too? Incidentally, I think you should have discussed your edits before making them, since many people are active on the page.

Now, first off, you have proof. I was fine letting it alone and moving on. But you felt the need to nose around and ta da! You have proof! So I'll start the clock ticking. BTW not only did I speak with Bastique, I spoke to several admins, as Bastique indicated (he was on at the time as well). That is what the Wiki chat room is for.

Secondly, even though you indicated removing the T'lan page I would ask that you please not delete it. You've done a fine job of adding content. Some I'd even forgotten about. Kudos, it is turning out to be a good page. Nicely done, so I think that we can forgo keeping your word (and I'm taking it on good faith that you are a person to actually keep her word...), on this point and leave the page. I quite like it ;p

Thirdly, the term fancruft is a well-known and well-used term here at Misplaced Pages. Doing research, talking to admins and others gives one some knowledge on such areas. And lastly... In case you hadn't noticed, I did discuss it first on the talk page. Yes I did edit it then immediately thought better of it and reverted it. Contrary to your opinion, I'm not here to ruffle feathers, but to improve the Misplaced Pages pages. So rather than cause undue friction I posted on the talk page and let the thing take its course. I, like anyone else have every right to edit; I could have added a template or two, even a dispute template. Again not wanting to cause friction I only added my points and allowed people to take it from there. So I'll expect a WLU free week! :) Cheers!--Mystar 21:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)