Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rajnath Rajput (talk | contribs) at 17:22, 23 September 2006 (→Let's Put An End To Racism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

	Campaign for less bull more writing
	I believe all admins should make a significant contribution to at least one featured article before being considered for adminship, and should make a significant contribution to at least one featured article (or single-handedly write a Good Article) per year or stand for re-election to retain their status. People interested in administrative tasks but not in writing content should be offered a separate status such as rollback privileges without blocking privileges. Checkuser and bureaucrat positions should be scheduled to expire and be rotated among trusted admins.
	We are here to write an encyclopedia

Have a good time

Thanks for your kind message; I appreciate your support. The truth is, I don't know what they want from me. I thought that arbitrations review a certain issue or set of articles, not the editor in general. Are they going to survey my 40,000+ edits with the intention of essentializing a few silly statements and ignoring all the rest? Well, we'll see. I try to give it as little thought as possible, although the amount of stress I get from editing these days is higher than ever. I hope that you are having a good vacation; sometimes it's necessary to forget about Misplaced Pages for a fortnight or two. --Ghirla 22:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Erast Fandorin

I got the feeling you were a bit unhappy about the expansion of Erast Fandorin. Is this correct, and if so could you please tell me how to improve? Errabee 00:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation help

Hi dab. If you have time, could you please help me translating this:

चन्द्रमा मनसो जातः चक्षोः सूर्यो अजायत मुखादिन्द्रश् चाग्निश् च प्राणाद्वायुर् अजायत

नाभ्या आसीदन्तरिक्षं शीर्ष्णो द्यौः समवर्तत पद्भ्यां भूमिर् दिशः श्रोत्रात् तथा लोकाम् अकल्पयन्

If you also know the source, that would be great. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 01:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I myself had picked it up from that site. But as all such pujas are based on assorted mantras from various texts, I was looking for the origin of this mantra. I remember it well from a tape I used to have that contained "stuti"s of the navagraha, and this one was used for Chandra. Thanks for your help. deeptrivia (talk) 01:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Arabic

I get it now. I still haven't seen any evidence that hamza should be represented by a hyphen. I get a kick out of people using wikipedia pages as references to support their arguments. The fact that the Arabic grammar page uses it in that way means nothing to me.

Regarding the hamza, like I said on the talk page, any alif at the beginning of a word is actually a hamza. The alif is just a seat so the hamza has something to sit on. The hamza is only by itself when it appears at the end of a word, otherwise it always gets a seat (one of the three vowels). Usually the hamza is ommitted, along with all the short vowel markings. This is basic Arabic and I don't know how else to prove it to you than to say go grab an "intro to Arabic" book. You can also look at an Arabic Qur'an, which usually has every diacritic marked, and you will see a hamza above or below every initial alif. Cuñado - Talk 03:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

FourthAve's ban timer

Per WP:BAN#Restart of ban duration when evasion is attempted, any attempt by FA to evade his ban should result in a reset, not just the fifth time. As a result, his ban should correspond to his latest sock evasion, regardless of how many times he's evaded it. The "enforcement" clause, if interpreted correctly, should only apply to bans under probation, parole, etc., and not to bans that cover the entire Misplaced Pages environment. (I'm sorry to bring this up this late, but I just noticed this and don't want to turn this into a threaded dialog. I don't intend to respond to any response you post.)

P.S. I also asked Tony Sidaway about this, and here's his response:

It's customary to reset an arbitration committee fixed-term ban to restart from the last point at which the subject made an attempt to evade it. The enforcement clause has nothing to do with it; he's banned for a year from the last time he attempted to evade the ban. --Tony Sidaway 21:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Scobell302 21:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

"I don't intend to respond to any response you post" seems a little bit less than polite. I said I was not going to pursue it in the first place. So 4thAve is banned for a year, that's fine. I'm still not forced to denounce him if I think I saw him about. dab (ᛏ) 07:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series

Hi, my old proposal (from June) regarding the reorganisation of the Greek language article series has been revived and there's now again a discussion ongoing. Much of it is just an exchange of old arguments, but perhaps your renewed input will help to find the best solution. Thanks! Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments about the cats. And the article about the cat too, I love it. :-) But my request was rather about the main issue of how to carve up the articles themselves between Ancient and Modern Greek coverage, the thing I suggested back in June. There's now quite a lively discussion going on. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, sorry, that discussion has somehow dispersed into several talkpages. Most is on the Talk:Greek language#Big restructuring needed? page, further up under the original proposal; details are being hammered out on my own talkpage and at User talk:Michkalas. Summary: I'm still after my plans from June and have started to assemble a few drafts in my userspace, but Michkalas and Peter Isotalo favour a solution closer to the present, where the main Greek language article contains the synchronic sketch of Modern Greek together with the summary links to all the other stuff. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of Helen

Hi, I think you added the etymology of Helen from *sel-, given in that article. Is there a source for this etymology? Thanks, --Akhilleus (talk) 17:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That section's been altered since you worked on it; I just asked because the latest editor found the *wel- etymology in the American Heritage Dictionary, and seems to be about to eliminate the others since they're currently unsourced. Thanks for the info you provided; I'll look around and see what I can find. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit

Hello. May I please ask why you have been rolling people back on this article in content disputes? Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 01:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was considered bad form and was written soemwhere that rollback was supposed to be used only for vandalism, bad-faith edits, linkspamming, etc. Is Bharatveer a vandal or bad-faith editor? Do I get to rollback POV personal opinions to my favourite articles? Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 06:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested change in redirect for IPA from International Phonetic Alphabet to IPA (disambiguation)

Please comment. --Karnesky 15:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Your reason for objecting to the move was

per Duja, bad idea.

and Duja's comment included the question

Who of the supporters will volunteer to fix all the links to IPA if the change is accepted?

I thought I'd let you know that the links have been fixed. If this was your only reason for objection, you might retract your objection. If you have other reasons for objecting, you might add them to the discussion. Thanks again. --Karnesky 21:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Dbachmann, I am new to Misplaced Pages and I just created an account and some user just messaged me this. I am reproducing it as it bears your name. It's really bad. Swear words, etc.. I don't know what to do with this. Help me. Here is the message -

'''Dbachmann, you are a motherfuckin' sonofabitch. Your ancestor Hitler had much more respect for Indians. He balked about Aryans.... We are Aryans. And your fuckin' racism won't work here. You BASTARD !!!!! Indians Are Real Great People. It's only Europeans who corrupted them !!!! Fuckin' sonofabitch, where are you from ? Zurich ? That is you are a SLAVE, a SLAVE of AMERICA !!!! Rascal !!!! Madarchod !!!! Behenchod !!!!! Bhadva !!!!!!! RANDVA !!!!! Chutmarike !!!!! YOU FUCKIN' GAY !!!! SUCKER HOMO !!!!! ROT IN HELL, YOU SISTERFUCKER !!!! HECK, THEY WON'T TAKE YOU EVEN THERE !!!''' <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 200%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> <table style="border: #D1D9EF solid 2px; -moz-border-radius: 12px; background: #D1D9EF; width: 100%; padding: 1px; text-align: center; font-size: 160%; margin-bottom: 5px;"> <tr><td>''']'''</td></tr></table> --] 17:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope you do something about the user. And why did he leave the message on my page ?

--Kushal Modi 17:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI

Perhaps you'd like to review/add comments at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Sanskrit? →Talk 03:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Hinduism could use some help here too. →Talk 03:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Scandalous revelations!

Hey dab, you have NO idea how happy my mother will be to know she is a grandmother!!! lol Thanks for pointing that entertaining revelation out. Cheers, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 03:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Thanks

Hey thanks for deleting that comment.

--Kushal Modi 08:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Lost edit on JRR Tolkien

Sorry for overwriting your edit on JRR Tolkien. I didn't get an edit warning. I see you already caught and reintroduced it. -- Jordi·✆ 12:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Gouranga

Hello Dab, thank you for your recent improvements to the Gouranga page, and your kind words on the discussion page. Please forgive me if I was somewhat belligerent when we first met at the end of last year. Hare Krishna :-) Ys, GourangaUK 13:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I'm seeing that your talk page has been vandalised recently by a variety of users. I am also a victim as are many other editors. These may be a single vandal like User:WoW with a lot of usernames. →Talk 15:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Ireland

There is now a Misplaced Pages Ireland Project. Evertype 13:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You'll note the template is much smaller than the NI one. I think it's worth tagging the Category:Ireland articles with it, because there aren't very many, and it will serve as an invitation to people to join the Wikiproject. Evertype 15:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:MOS-AR

Hi, you previously commented at WP:MOS-AR. Would you be interested in participating in a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Arabic)#Solar letters again? Cheers, —Ruud 10:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hwair article disappeared into ether?

It looks like Hwair was moved] to Ƕ, but that page redirects back to Hwair. It was a nice article, and you were the last contributor, so I though you might like to know that something weird is going on... -emk (talk) 18:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Insulting remarks about India and Indians

While replying to a message on the talk page of User talk:BostonMA, I chanced upon the following remarks by you: "... especially in India, every sh*thole is getting internet access. I feel for these people, because they are in an actual ethnic conflict, and must feel actual hate, but I don't feel responsible for babysitting them, Misplaced Pages is not for them ..." :

I do understand that all pages belong to Wikimedia Foundation including the user pages and talk pages, and no one should be allowed to take shelter that exchange of remarks and interaction were in personal capacities. I denounce the extreme POVs explicitly and implicitly conveyed through the above remarks, and feel highly offended and annoyed at the same. They are especially sad (to use a mild word), as they emanated from the mind of an administrator of high standing like you. For the sake of good order, I shall copy and paste them verbatim at the village pump and other fora for a larger audience. --Bhadani 03:24, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you to please take up the matter with Wikimedia Foundation to take all Indian IPs indefinitely blocked: in any case, hardly 0.5 % edits of English Wikiepdia comes from India, and it may not matter!! --Bhadani 03:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Zora says it is silly ... Ok, fine. --Bhadani 03:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

nice try, Bhadani, this matter has been beaten to death several times over, I have commented extensively on this about four times over, and will not do so again, even if you are sad and insulted until you are blue in the face. dab (ᛏ) 09:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Please leave User:Bhadani alone. Do you not think that when Bhadani makes an error he is able to recognize it and admit to it? --BostonMA 11:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply to a post on my page when I had declared that I treat the matter as closed as far as I was concerend: Please do not talk with me unless it becomes necessary to protect the integrity of the Project.. --Bhadani 13:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Having come across the above extraordinary exchange, I feel that I have to speak my mind. I have read Dbachmann's original comments many times and all I could gather from it was the frustration of dab due to the actions of certain users blinded by Nationalism and regionalism. I didn't read any insult aimed at the '1 billion+ people'. In fact Indians should be rightly proud of providing Internet access to each and every 'sh*t hole'. Not many developed countries have achieved that. When User:Bhadani talks about the Project being more important, he should be at the forefront fighting the Nationalistic trolls. It is unfortunate that an experienced user such as Bhadani seemingly cannot see the fuller picture due to the glare of Nationalism. I personally have had many dealings with some of the difficult users dab mentions in Bhadani's Talk page and I know exacly how dab feels. Simply <aussie slang>spitting the dummy</aussie slang> and saying 'don't talk to me' is not going to help the 'project'.

The above comments by User:Bharatveer alluding to the Nazi Gas chambers is a personal attack on dab. I would like to see some senior admins take some actions against this repeat offender.-Parthi 00:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I usually keep quiet during discussions as these to avoid being trolled but I would readily second Parthi's comments in this case. I was a close observer of the torture that dab had to suffer at the hands of some super-patriots in the Rajput article, against whom dab made his comments. I have followed dab's actions on and off for a few months and have never had any reason to question his fairness, culture or manners. Tintin (talk) 05:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

this is the sort of thing I have to put up with. random trolls calling me names. Some of them aren't even banned, I have no idea how the community can think it is appropriate to let me be bullied by Bharatveer and his peers. At this point, after all the good faith explanations I've given (e.g. . has Bhadani read this section?), I will simply not debate this. If I am to continue to protect and expand the articles within the area of my expertise, I expect the community to protect me from the kind of harassment that I am exposed to. dab (ᛏ) 08:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I also endorse this take on the situation, thank you Hornplease. I do expect every good faith editor after reading this will be satisfied and assist the project to handle the influx of 'online illiterate' editors. I am thankful for inexhaustible patience and friendliness of our welcome committees and I respect their work. It is not my piece of cake, I do make allowance for cluelessness, but I do not take kindly to cluelessness combined with arrogance and aggression. Such editors will find me curt in pointing out WP:5P, and my position is that anyone unable to grasp these (5P) and WP:ENC should not be wasting my time. Misplaced Pages is also not a social club, and I am not here to make friends (although I am happy to say that I did). It is not a place to pamper people's national sensitivities either, and I am uncomfortable with all the "Muslim guilds", "Indian guilds" and "Irish guilds" that spring up across WP namespace. As long as they do no harm, fine: they benefit the project. As soon as these guilds are out to protect their national honour or whatever by orchestrating witchhunts against other editors, they should be shut down. I am here for detached and dedicated encyclopedic writing, and this is my right. I have always respected editors who took responsibility and adhered to policy, no matter how much I disagree with them. I have no respect for editors who just want to see their own group or religion or whatever glorified according to their own terms, without investing any encyclopedic work of their own. I do not think that I should be smeared on assorted user pages for this attitude of mine. Everybody is free to dislike me, and avoid interaction with me, but as soon as people begin campaigning against me, a line is crossed, and the community should stop them. I am encouraged by the support I seem to be getting from uninvolved community member, and my hope is that wiki mechanisms will work to contain this situation without myself having to plod knee-deep through bureaucracy to get protection of my simple rights per Misplaced Pages policy. I can take a lot of trolling without raising an eyebrow, but it is clear that should I feel left alone to fend for what is after all the interest of the project, I will not think it worth my time to continue at some point. dab (ᛏ) 09:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Citizendium

Imagine people with actual degrees and teaching positions in Indo-European linguistics having the final say on IE articles. Are you moving over to Citizendium when it's launched? CRCulver 14:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Subversive (?) idea

Seems like your ideas are taking shape rather quickly. Just check Citizendium. --Ghirla 07:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

it's dangerous. it should be endorsed by Misplaced Pages, otherwise it will end up as just another smartass project nobody is interested in. I must say that I am fed up with being wikistalked by our resident Hindutva witchhunters. It is easy to clean Misplaced Pages of childish graffiti and ill researched misconception, but it is not worth my time to protect its integrity against this sort of orchestrated nationalist propaganda. So yes, if this -pendium thing takes flight, I might opt in. I take pleasure in disagreement with literate editors (such as disagreements as we might have had in the past), but I am not here to babysit articles against belligerent teenagers. dab (ᛏ) 08:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's risky. On the other hand, we should give the project some time (half a year?) to take flight. I know what it's like to be wikistalked by nationalist trolls. This is a nice example: I made just one edit there and was instantly accused of sockpuppetry. In order to solve this single issue (in which I take no particular interest), I'd have to leave my proper paid job and spend half a day explaining; what about the other 3,000 entries in my watchlist?

I asked User:Mikkalai to interfere and he did; but those who run WP today are usually not involved in main space editing, spend 10+ hours a day buzzing on IRC, treat the project as a maiden aunts' tea party and dismiss active main space editors as expendable cogs. As the matters stand now, I see the most devoted contributors leaving WP daily: User:172, User:Pecher, User:Renata3, User:Worldtraveller, User:Giano, User:Paul August, User:Geogre (see here, here, and here).... Those who is still involved in editing feel uneasy, too. Probably a more editor-friendly project, with less reliance on non-editing bureaucracy, anonymous contributors and Pokémon-related articles, is not such a bad idea. Well, only the time will show... --Ghirla 09:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's unlikely that it will be endorsed by Misplaced Pages. There's bad blood between the chiefs of each, and already I've seen discontent among Wikipedians about this new project (with one problematic user known to us both calling it "treason"). At the same time, some people are rubbing their hands at the prospect of taking content from Citizendium and putting it in Misplaced Pages as is their right under the GFDL. Still, I plan to start contributing there, since I will no longer have to spend so much time RVing nonsense, and will finally have the leisure to start writing content again. CRCulver 14:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope you will join, I certainly have been waiting for something like this for a very long time. Errabee 16:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the people who "run" Misplaced Pages hanging out on IRC and becoming a group separate from those who write Misplaced Pages is a serious problem. So far I don't see many ill side-effects, but it should be addressed, as it has the potential to take down the project. I emphasize that I think it is important to realize that the expendable people are those who do administrative tasks (anyone can RCP, block trolls and fix vandalism; it's a huge workload, and it needs to be done, but it doesn't need qualification). Competent editors, otoh, are the most precious resource Misplaced Pages has, and the community should make every effort to avoid these people being driven away. This really cannot be stressed enough. It is natural that the "keepers" of Misplaced Pages tend to overestimate the importance of their work, but it is important that they realize there would be nothing there to protect and administrate without our population of prolific and competent editors in each field. The sort of thing I am going through here is bad enough, and many other people would have left long ago. It is of utmost importance that things like this are prevented from happening to editors, even if it means clamping down and banning people with trollish attitudes on sight, in partial violation of the pure wiki principle. dab (ᛏ) 16:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Your comments on my user page

Hi dab, thank you for your comments on my user page. You begin by asking "have I not now?" I believe you are referring to the lines where I wrote:

"I also suggested that the best course when one offends is usually to acknowledge that one has been offensive (even if unintentionally), to apologize, and to avoid taking on airs that it is those who are offended that are in the wrong. Dbachmann has chosen not to follow that course of action."

We may disagree, but in my opinion the answer is no, you have not chosen to apoligize or to avoid taking airs that it is those who are offended that are in the wrong. I understand that you are upset, and this may not be the best time to explain my answer, but I will try to do my best under the circumstances. In our discussion here, I felt that you repeatedly suggested that if I was bothered by your comments, that it was my own fault, you sarcasticly asked who made me the WP PC-patrol, and so on. It felt to me that you were justifying your course of action, rather than "apologizing and avoiding taking airs that it is those who are offended that are in the wrong". You even say as much in your comment above:

My comments are not offensive, and I do not have to apologize for their content.

Although it is not a question directed at me, I do feel obliged to comment on your next statement.

I did apologize for any unintended offence they may have caused, more than sufficiently, and I won't do it again.

I was not aware that you have apologized for unintended offence. I also find it difficult to reconcile your claim that the comments are not offensive and deserve no apology with the statement that you apologized for unintended offence. Perhaps we see things differently, but as I see it, "causing offence" and "being offensive" are nearly synonyms.

The only other point I will respond to at the moment is that in your edit summary, you write "this is just wikistalking". Could you explain what about my behavior you feel is wikistalking? Thank you again for your comments. Sincerely. --BostonMA 11:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

you did present my comment out of context, without giving its background (my being exposed to serious abuse by the Rajput trolls, and its very definite application to that very definite set of people, making it sound as if I was talking about Indians in general), nor did you make reference to my repeated explanations in its aftermath. This is a clear show of bad faith, and Bhadani was apparently tricked into believing that my comment was indeed directed against Indians as a group. I do therefore blame you for consciously and unfairly smearing me on your userpage, either aware of the background and choosing to leave it unreferenced, or without doing proper research before accusing me. I will happily apologize for any behaviour I recognize as wrong in retrospect, but I will not apologize where I do not see myself in the wrong. People may still be offended, either because they choose to misconstrue statements of mine, or maybe because they just don't like my nose. You may not appreciate the difference, but I will not apologize for being alive or for using Misplaced Pages, even if you happen to be terribly offended by the fact. You came to my userpage, asking that I explain myself to you, with respect to a comment that I had already explained, in full. You were not involved at all, and you could just have read up the full history of the affair. I have nothing to add to what I said last winter. Instead, you apparently decided you had a right to impose on my time and make me explain again the exact same thing I had already explained. Just because you felt like it, maybe you don't like reading archives, maybe you like to be addressed personally, but by all appearances you seem to have taken it as a serious misbehaviour on my part to refuse to invest my time in repeating myself to you personally, just for your asking. I am sorry, but I see no rhyme or reason in such an attitude. If you are interested in the case, read the archives, it's all there, just like my comment itself. If you are not interested enough to plod through all the text, don't expect me to be interested in wasting time in giving you a live account. dab (ᛏ) 16:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your frustrations with me. I can see how you might feel that by failing to include background information that you feel important for a proper understanding of your comment, that I misrepresented you and "smeared" you. I know that I would be not be pleased by someone using one of my comments out of context in a way that I thought was contrary to what I had intended. In retrospect, it would have been better, had I mentioned on my user page that you believed that the context in which your comment was made, and the intent of your meaning were such that they should not be considered offensive. Had I made such mention, it is possible that our discussion would have been clearer. However, in my defense, you did bring up the context in our discussion, and I did have a link to that discussion near your quote.

You believe that I misled Bhadani into misinterpretting your quote. Bhadani is not interested in talking about you at the moment, so I will not bother him to ask his how he understood your comment, or attempt to determine whether he misunderstood it. However, I don't believe I misunderstand your quote, and I do believe that I have good English comprehension. Yet, it is my take that your quote is indeed an offense to all Indians. Borrowing something that I wrote elsewhere:

It is unnecessary to mention the nationality, culture or religion of editors when discussing edits. To gratuitously mention such attributes of editors in the course of criticizing edits has all the appearances of being an insult to those of the mentioned nationality, culture or religion -- it has the appearance of an insinuation that faults an editor may have are somehow related to that editor's nationality, culture or religion. Whether an insult was intended or not, civility dictates avoiding mentioning such attributes.

I understand that you meant to insult only a few individuals with whom you had an instense dispute. But by associating "India" with "clueless people", or when you speak of "Hindu gerontophilia", or "Hindu trolls", etc. you are not only attacking the specific people you intend, but are gratuitiously mentioning their ethnicity, nationality, religion etc.

I understand that you do not wish to explain yourself over and over. Please forgive me, for I am about to say something that will appear very arrogant. I also do not want you to explain yourself over and over. I have already read your explanations long ago. What I would like is for you to listen to others and learn and most importantly to change your behavior. Again, please forgive me for speaking plainly.

Sincerely, --BostonMA 21:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Bhadani

Hi Dab. Sorry to take up an issue that refuses to die. While I understand your frustration, and have tried to explain your case to the people involved (here, for example), I feel that you should've A'edGF a bit instead of presuming that Bhadani was a troll or a newbie. He is neither. He's nationalistic, verbose (like most Indians like me), but a good faith editor. In my opinion, you should say sorry to him just for presuming him to be a "troll". I know it may be difficult given the positions the parties have taken, but it would do good. Thanks. -- Sundar 12:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the acknowledgment, Dab. My intention was just to set the records straight and if possible bring the heat down. It's OK if you both don't apologise to each other. Regarding your comment that I'd make a good mediator, let me say that a) I may not have enough time to go through an unfamiliar dispute and b) I'm not confident enough with my English language skills. -- Sundar 06:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I can not but agree that mediation is a thankless job. Carry on with your work. I share your concern about editors leaving the project. I was always under the impression that community building and the framework that supports that are not at the cost of encyclopedia building. -- Sundar 09:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi dab, we havent met b4, but the Bhadani thing has raised enough dust in the past few days on WP, to catch my attention. I usually refrain from interfering in things that dont concern me, but seeing the amount muck thats being thrown around, I couldnt help but comment. Afa i am concerned, Bhadani and co are just making a mountain out of a molehill. Infact, I dont see anything wrong in what you said. The problem here is that people are simply reading in between lines and drawing conclusions most convenient to them. Infact, being an Indian, I am a little embarrassed by this whole issue. Given the amount of uncivility around, you shouldnt even be apologetic.
I know this comment of mine will mean nothing to the state of affairs, but I thought I should let you know. Thanks.

Sarvagnya 20:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC) To quote you -"I do not take kindly to cluelessness combined with arrogance and aggression. Such editors will find me curt in pointing out WP:5P, and my position is that anyone unable to grasp these (5P) and WP:ENC should not be wasting my time. Misplaced Pages is also not a social club, and I am not here to make friends (although I am happy to say that I did). It is not a place to pamper people's national sensitivities either, and I am uncomfortable with all the "Muslim guilds", "Indian guilds" and "Irish guilds" that spring up across WP namespace. As long as they do no harm, fine: they benefit the project. As soon as these guilds are out to protect their national honour or whatever by orchestrating witchhunts against other editors, they should be shut down".

Is there not something that admins can do to influence the powers that be in wiki to look at tackling this ? Haphar 10:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Out of India theory criticism

Hey dab...despite our disagreements I request a bit of editing help in the Out of India theory article. Despite your interpretation of my edits as Hindutva propaganda I would much rather the creation of an NPOV article about a theory which many Indians support. So, could you please create a Criticism section on that page and add anti-OIT criticism from the words of academics. I just request you to keep Hindutva propaganda accusations to the Political History section and to provide sources for every point you make, otherwise WP:OR may force me to remove some points. Thanks. Nobleeagle (Talk) 23:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian pyramids?

Dab, your statement on Kelly's talk was brilliant. Back to mainspace, I have stong concerns about the new article Ukrainian pyramids. Could you take a look? I believe the key words in the BBC story are: "tourism chiefs are keen to cash in and are already planning to open a hotel nearby". --Ghirla 09:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

	India Is Superior Than Your Hordes
	Hi Dbachmann, I read your comments on India and Indians. I think it is very unfortunate that you said all those things. Man, your comments are in extremely bad taste. You don't understand, we are superior to you Europeans. Actually we have preserved our Indo-European culture in the form of Hindu values and the Aryan Vedic religion. But you guys have lost all your Indo-European values. Now you are slaves of the Semitic culture. Isn't it ironic that you guys tortured the Semites and made them slaves and now you yourself are their slaves. You have shamelessly deserted all your Pre-Christian Indo-European culture. You are now slaves. And that is why your remarks are totally inappropriate. Well, reign in ignorance !
	Racists should be banned from Misplaced Pages

--Hugo Ness 14:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

hm, yes, your final point makes perfect sense. have a permaban, then. dab (ᛏ) 16:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Joseph and His Brothers

Hi, nowadays there is somewhat of a procedure to rate a novel as Top-important. You can rate it as high, and nominate it here, which is what I just did. Just wanted you to know my action is in no way a vote it shouldn't be Top-important. If you go there, please vote for some other novels as well. Errabee 19:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Koenraad Elst

I see you've left a message for an editor saying that "Elst is quotable as part of reasonable discourse". Could you expand on that, please? A writer with no major peer-reviewed publications and completely outside the university system is quotable as the representative of a particular viewpoint, and that with qualifications, and only on the particular field of study in which he academically qualified. At least that's my impression. Elst has been quoted often and in depth in places where he shouldnt have been, sometimes as the only authority, and it would be nice if we could have some consensus on this. Hornplease 03:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You may be pleased to know that immediately following this request, I discovered this edit to a conversation I'm part of: . Hornplease 09:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's Put An End To Racism