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@Capitals00: Can you please explain this edit of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was one report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC explicitly states: This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused.
Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- Tyler Durden (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.
- Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire Kashmir conflict, as noted by reliable sources. Capitals00 (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for this edit! You finally understood. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hello D4iNa4, this article is specifically for covering war rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to Rape in Pakistan, Sectarian violence in Pakistan, Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. Problematics (talk) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for this edit! You finally understood. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, why are category:Rape in India, category:Human rights abuses in India, category:Controversies in India, but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. WP:POV, perhaps? Jim1138 (talk) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with User:Jim1138 that this article is suffering with WP:Censorship. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing war rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. Problematics (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive censorship as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please refrain from WP:PERSONAL. Problematics (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive censorship as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing war rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. Problematics (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I agreed to add the conflict-related sexual abuse in Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.
- But there are a lot of problems with the content added by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from WP:COATRACK. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.
- The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around Baramulla, which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were not the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in Human rights abuses in Kashmir or Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in First Kashmir War and Baramulla(its duly covered in this page).
- The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.
Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.
: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.- So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly WP:UNDUE to build content in this article.
- And User:D4iNa4, kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Misplaced Pages. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with you Tyler Durden. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the Kashmir conflict are included. There is no time restriction. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- In answer to Jim1138, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per WP:WEIGHT, it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. Jim1138 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (1988 Gilgit Massacre). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Jim1138 too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the Kashmir conflict. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of Kashmir) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the proposed content till now, the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — Tyler Durden (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Jim1138 too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the Kashmir conflict. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of Kashmir) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (1988 Gilgit Massacre). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per WP:WEIGHT, it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. Jim1138 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the WP:DUE requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. Problematics (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in WP:CENSORSHIP. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in Jammu massacres. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. Problematics (talk) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hope you won't edit war over it. D4iNa4 (talk) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in Jammu massacres. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. Problematics (talk) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in WP:CENSORSHIP. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the WP:DUE requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. Problematics (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in Azad Kashmir or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as WP:OR and uncorroborated WP:SYNTHESIS. The current title of this article suggests that this is not a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the 47 war didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. Mar4d (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
References
- MacDonald, Myra (2017). Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War. Oxford University Press.
Problematic editing
@Capitals00: Can you please explain this edit of yours? What on earth were you starting? The content you added in the Background section is irrelevant, its not background to this subject and is out of the scope of this article. And apart from that, all you cited was one report of sexual abuse of which no source said it was used as a weapon of war. Also BBC explicitly states: This is the first alleged rape in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in which military personnel have been accused.
Now how can you possibly justify inserting this in the lead? --- Tyler Durden (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Don't do blanket reversion of the entire edit just because a single sentence didn't fit the source, instead you had to reword it. It seems there are more than these few scholarly sources that concern Pakistan administered Kashmir. I am removing the example from as weapon of war. Would rather make separate section for Pakistan if there are sources talking about multiple cases.
- Also the background does fit it, it shows that when did rape actually started to take place in this entire Kashmir conflict, as noted by reliable sources. Capitals00 (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for this edit! You finally understood. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hello D4iNa4, this article is specifically for covering war rape in the present post-1989 conflict in Kashmir Valley. Please add your material to Rape in Pakistan, Sectarian violence in Pakistan, Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 or other more suitable pages for your content. Thank you. Problematics (talk) 09:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Content was not well placed, but not useless either, I have created new section for Pakistan. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for this edit! You finally understood. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 23:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, why are category:Rape in India, category:Human rights abuses in India, category:Controversies in India, but not the Pakistani equivalents? Unless of course Pakistanis are truly virtuous. WP:POV, perhaps? Jim1138 (talk) 10:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with User:Jim1138 that this article is suffering with WP:Censorship. Capitals00, TylerDurden apparently agreed to include Pakistani rape violence in Kashmir, here we have over 10 reliable sources but a new SPA is censoring them. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing war rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. Problematics (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive censorship as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please refrain from WP:PERSONAL. Problematics (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then make such a senseless article title too, "Rape in Kashmir since 1989" and have it deleted soon. You are finding a excuse to carry on your disruptive censorship as we can see. Thus you are lacking sense. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- If you can find reliable, solid scholarly sources discussing war rape by Pakistanis inside the insurgency areas since 1990, feel welcome to add. If its not that then its not for this article. Problematics (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I agreed to add the conflict-related sexual abuse in Pakistan administered Kashmir, if any.
- But there are a lot of problems with the content added by D4iNa4. It clearly suffers from WP:COATRACK. Also it was again written and placed inappropriately.
- The 1947 violence by Pakistani tribesmen happened in and around Baramulla, which is today Indian administered Kashmir, they were not the incidents occurred in Pakistan administered Kashmir, as the user wrote. And as I have already said, that content does not belong here. Its out of the scope of this article. Those Pakistani tribesmen atrocities are not meant to be covered in Human rights abuses in Kashmir or Human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, and apparently they are not. The same is the case with this article. Capitals00 himself removed it later, and it has to be covered in First Kashmir War and Baramulla(its duly covered in this page).
- The 1970s incidents in PAK are also not related to this article. The content clearly specifies that it happened when the excessive military was deployed due to Shia-Sunni conflicts, that has got nothing to do with Kashmir conflict.
Pakistani militants have been also involved in rape of Kashmiri women and torturing of prisoners.
: This line again, as per source, is talking about the violence by militants in IAK, not PAK, and it has been extensively covered in this article in an explicit section.- So again we're left with one single case of sexual abuse reported by BBC, of which I have already told, is blatantly WP:UNDUE to build content in this article.
- And User:D4iNa4, kindly refrain from personal attacks and discuss only the substance. That's not at all a good practice for a responsible and rational editor of Misplaced Pages. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 11:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with you Tyler Durden. If we stick by the article title, all the events that occurred as part of the Kashmir conflict are included. There is no time restriction. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- In answer to Jim1138, I think we have better information available for India than for Pakistan. Also, more editors interested in writing about India (including positive and negative stuff). Nevertheless, do you have a view on the issue being discussed here? Dos this article need to cover the events in Pakistan-administered Kashmir? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per WP:WEIGHT, it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. Jim1138 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (1988 Gilgit Massacre). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Jim1138 too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the Kashmir conflict. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of Kashmir) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: Yes, I agree too this. And in that case, out of the proposed content till now, the 1947 tribesmen atrocities alone can be included. — Tyler Durden (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Jim1138 too. So, there is no time or geographical restriction. The name of the article, as chosen by its creator, covers all of the Kashmir conflict. Please focus on "Kashmiris" (all the inhabitants of Kashmir) and their trauma rather than worrying about India or Pakistan. All artificial limitations placed on the scope amount to WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- This article's lead and background specifies the context as the insurgency in Kashmir since 1989/90. The scholarly sources and media particularly discuss rape in Kashmir conflict in the context of the insurgency between security forces and militants. A lot of the content discussing Pakistan-administered Kashmir is jumbled up. The 1947 tribal rapes cannot be included since that is part of the 1947 war, just as rape during Jammu massacres cannot be fitted into this article. The events in Gilgit, rooted in sectarianism in Pakistan, already has its own page. (1988 Gilgit Massacre). It has no relation to Kashmir conflict. Problematics (talk) 11:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The article name does not appear to differentiate between the two sections, so per WP:WEIGHT, it should include Pakistan-administered Kashmir as well. Jim1138 (talk) 11:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the WP:DUE requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. Problematics (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in WP:CENSORSHIP. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in Jammu massacres. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. Problematics (talk) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hope you won't edit war over it. D4iNa4 (talk) 12:17, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- I am going to oppose inclusion of historical events not part of the post-1989 Kashmir insurgency. Including rapes by tribals and rapes in Jammu massacres. This will just create confusion for readers since this article is quite obviously discussing only the insurgency in Kashmir and all the article's material sourced to scholarly references related to use as weapon of war, prosecution etc is discussing Kashmir conflict as the current conflict in the Valley since 1989. I oppose any anachronisation of the article's pre-existing content. Problematics (talk) 11:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- TylerDurden sorry but you are not seeing the fact that the source that talks about the atrocities by Pakistani forces since October 1947 talks about whole Kashmir region that was later divided as J & K, Gilgit, Azad Kashmir. There are sources that mention their atrocities (rape, looting, lynching) in Muzaffarabad (now Pakistan), Srinagar (now India), etc. The 1970s events are also important since they tell how Pakistan military got back Kashmir under their 100% control. Problematics is just a disruptive SPA who is engaged in WP:CENSORSHIP. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- The conflict in Kashmir which this article is seemingly covering is the post 1989 conflict. This is not just specified in the lead and background, but this is how scholarly sources discuss rape in this conflict. All rape within a particular territory and its long history does not meet the WP:DUE requirements. Please ensure that we describe a subject according to the scholarly narratives. Problematics (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- My two cents: Unless the sources explicitly demonstrate that the single incident in Azad Kashmir or the event in Gilgit are a result of the Kashmir conflict/insurgency, linking the two would qualify as WP:OR and uncorroborated WP:SYNTHESIS. The current title of this article suggests that this is not a general article covering rape incidents in Kashmir. Also as someone above noted, some of the events attributed to Pakistani armed groups during the 47 war didn't actually occur inside Pakistani territory. Mar4d (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
References
- MacDonald, Myra (2017). Defeat is an Orphan: How Pakistan Lost the Great South Asian War. Oxford University Press.