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User talk:Robert the Bruce

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tony Sidaway (talk | contribs) at 17:15, 26 November 2004 (→Civility). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Mediation

Robert - would you be willing to go through the process of Mediation? I feel you constant rudeness (calling people biased, liars, questioning thier integrety etc) is adversly affecting the articles that you work on. Mediation is a process for resloving this type of problem. A neutral mediator, with no prior knowledge of the dispute, will try to resolve conflicts and come to am amicable agreement. But the process is volutary. You'd have to agree to it.

BTW this is your third username in as many months. We generally frown on sockpuppet accounts. Will you be using this account from now on? Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 05:35, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • Theresa I would really appreciate it if you got off my case. - Robert the Bruce 18:14, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry I wasn't trying to get on your case. I was trying to resolve our difficulties. Would you please reconsider mediation? Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 18:38, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Theresa, you are on my case and you have been from the beginning. I would like you to please get off my case. If there is someone else who would like to bring something to my attention or discuss my contribution to Misplaced Pages I would entertain such an interaction. But sadly given your partisan involvement thus far I do not wish to discuss this matter with you personally any more. Now please Theresa ... get ... off ... my ... case. - Robert the Bruce 03:02, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll take it as a no then :-( Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 05:39, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"POV" on Penis

The sentence you removed about circums. being controversial is obviously not POV. Just look at how much controversy it has stirred up on Wikipeida. — David Remahl 02:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • You should not confuse the activity of a few on Misplaced Pages as a reflection of the views of the greater world out there. Dangerous mistake, in my opinion. The insertion of that sentence in the article is plain POV pushing. Try to see it in the context of the article. It does not belong. - Robert the Bruce 02:52, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That article is not the place to be debating the issue. It's about the penis itself, not circumcision. Context is always good, but your edit wasn't what I'd call constructive; you simply discredit the (otherwise unspoken) opinion of those opposed to circumcision as a small, loud group of "psycho sexually motivated" internet users. Belittling views contrary to your own is usually an ineffective way of currying favour for your views, eh? As for your "compromise," I must say you could do better; now you're blaming "anti-circumcision activists" of "stoking controversy", as if everything would be just fine if it weren't for the radical subversives. Do you really believe every person opposed to circumcision is—by default—an eristic rabble-rouser? -- Hadal 04:15, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • from Hadal's talk page:
You failed to address my issue about context. Why? Anyway I have edited the applicable passage
again so as to address your concerns. BTW please show me where you have reverted some of the 
more off the wall comment by our resident "anti circumcision activists"? - Robert the Bruce 05:29, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I said context is a good thing, but what you added wasn't context, it was judgmental POV pushing. I see you're still blaming the controversy on "anti-circumcision activists" of "stoking controversy", as if there are no valid objections to circumcision. I know of no group who would seek to deny an adult's consenting right to circumcise himself; so where does this "especially when... " part come from? -- Hadal 08:45, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • I would have thought that you would have attempted to be even handed in your involvement in this article. In some bizarre fashion it appears that you refuse to accept that if POV is allowed it must be balanced by context and qualification. If you believe that the loaded sentence is on topic and should be retained then surely you would accept that it be qualified accordingly. I don't believe it serves the article in any way. We may agree to differ on this. - Robert the Bruce 09:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have not reverted any "off the wall comment by our resident 'anti circumcision activists'" because a); I have not seen any such edits (I don't really keep up with these sorts of articles, and I'm usually on the lookout for clear-cut vandalism) and b); because, until now, I've decided to stay out of articles involving you. Why? Because it seems to me that you're not exactly pleasant to collaborate with. There's enough strife in my offline life, so I hereby recuse myself from the article in question. Happy editing. -- Hadal 08:45, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • The term "recuse" usually relates to those who have a "conflict of interest" in the matter at hand. I accept this as the reason and remark with respect that you knew when the game was up and it was ime to get out of town (so to speak). A good rule of thumb is to declare ones position on the matter up front rather than to fein neutrality while trying to influence matters in an insidious manner. Thank you for your candour. - Robert the Bruce 09:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

3 revert rule

Robert, you have now violated the 3 revert guideline on Sexual intercourse. If you revert again within 24 hours of the second-last revert, the page will be locked. Pakaran. 12:12, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • My, my but aren't we officious. I note with mirth tinged with sadness that you see yourself on a crusade to "keep Misplaced Pages sane". The irony, the irony. Now to the 3 revert rule. It states: ' Don't revert any page more than three times within a period of 24 hours. Did I do this? Boy did you screw up. - Robert the Bruce 17:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • You're right - your last edit wasn't a revert. Sorry. Pakaran. 18:25, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bensley/Boyle survey

Robert,

I agree that the O'Hara survey is biased and I believe that the bias should be mentioned in the Medical analysis of circumcision article. However, your allegations about the Bensley/Boyle survey are unfounded. What evidence do you have that would suggest the survey's participants were not female? Please provide an explanation why the sex of the participants should be questioned. There is a difference between pointing out bias and making unfounded accusations in an effort to discredit your opponents. Please respond at Talk:Medical analysis of circumcision. Acegikmo1 04:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • I will respond here for the record. The question must be asked of you as to why you are so desperate to have this (Bensley/Boyle) nonsense inserted into Misplaced Pages. Turn this around in your head and consider if I had produced a "one pager" from someone very short on content and fact (as this one is) and started trumpeting the findings around as an incontrovertible proof. I can just imagine the howls of protest from you and your anti-circumcision friends. I have stated in response on the other page that you are challenged to produce the detail of the survey. Why don't you email Bensley/Boyle? Failing that I shall continue to challenge the honesty of both the findings and the way they continue to be presented on Misplaced Pages. Have a good day. - Robert the Bruce 05:18, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Thank you for your response, Robert. You have made some good points. I shall e-mail Boyle, requesting that he explain the methodology of recriuitment used in the survey. This seems to be the most contentious point. Is there anything else you want to know before accepting the survey? Acegikmo1 05:41, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I want to read the detail of the survey. Nothing short of that will be good enough. I suggest that until you produce the detail we delete reference to it from the articles. I will do so. - Robert the Bruce 15:34, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Clitoris pic

You coments indicate that you misread the question. The poll was whether we should remove the picture and replace it with a link to an external diagram. So if you think we should keep the picture you should vote no in the poll not yes. The warning is a sperate issue that is not addressed by the poll. Cheers. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 07:12, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Foreskin

Removing your speculation is not vandalsm. Everytime I see you revert someone with "vandalsm" in the edit summary I will revert you. If you don't want me to do this, stop being rude and calling people vandals, and argue your case on the talk page instead. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 07:40, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

  • I see you are on my case again Theresa. Do you have something obsessive in your nature? You see Theresa it works "everytime a coconut". Toss in a little speculation and the sky falls in as the skin freaks and their groupies go balistic. But tamper with their speculation and ... (you know how it goes from here on).  ;-) Its quite pathetic isn't it? And sadly you are right in the middle. - Robert the Bruce 09:14, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Please explain why you reverted my edits. I was copyediting and changing the paragraphs, which contained supporting links as per your request. -- thickslab 17:02, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • My dear thickslab do you really have so little respect for the intelligence of others that you expect to be seen as an innocent victim in all this? Why not share with Wikipedians what lies behind your desperation to push a POV agenda in this article? This is simply not a matter of balancing viewpoints but rather that truth prevails. You are in favour of truth prevailling aren't you? - Robert the Bruce 17:10, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Deleting those paragraphs is not productive, as they are clearly relevant to the heading they are under. Furthermore, I added references to substantiate the claims in those paragraphs, as per your request. Let me know what your concerns are, and I will do my best to address them. Believe it or not, I would like to come to an agreement that we both could live with. Please be specific with your concerns about those paragraphs and I will try to propose wording that we can both live with. -- thickslab 17:54, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Thick, half-truths, innuendo, misrepresentations, spin and outright lies have no place in a Misplaced Pages article. By desperately attempting to maintain such it places your personal integrity in question. I would have thought that would have been obvious to all. Now perhaps the one unanswered question is why you seem so desperate to maintain this stuff in the article ... is there something about how you feel about foreskins you want to share with wikipedians? - Robert the Bruce 03:19, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Sure, Robert, I can answer that. I think foreskins are perfectly normal but that on the other hand circumcision can be a perfectly valid operation. Frankly, I find your foreskin obsession and your extremist pro-circumcision fetishism bizarre. I also think that if you didn't display such a rude, dismissive, and arrogant attitude, you'd find it a lot easier to work with people on Misplaced Pages. -- thickslab 03:04, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
    • Is there something that *you* want to share, Robert? -- thickslab 13:16, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
      • Sure. I believe that male circumcision is a perfectly acceptable parental decision as a result of religious, cultural or medical considerations. - Robert the Bruce 15:48, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Do you believe that some sane and intelligent people believe otherwise? Tverbeek 20:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • Sure, but the test is to what degree. To think otherwise and respect the views of others or to indulge in foaming at the mouth activism like our anti-circ activists? Can people who are fanatics in this regard be really sane and intelligent? - Robert the Bruce 01:28, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
            • To a circumcision fetishist like Robert Brookes, nobody who has anything less than the blatantly pro-circumcision, anti-foreskin extremist views he has is insane and unintelligent. -- thickslab 03:01, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Clitoris circumcision

Robert, please argue the case on the talk page. If you're so obviously right, surely you can persuade others of it?Dr Zen 11:04, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • All that is necessary in the main article is a reference to female circumcision (FGM) whereby it is stated that in the more invasive of the methods of FGM the clitoris is removed. It is a massively minority practice and to afford it any more space is mere POV. - Robert the Bruce 11:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Clearly, others disagree that that is "all that is necessary". It is not a "massively minority practice". It is extremely common, just not round your way. POV is not shorthand for "something I don't think should be there". If you think other POVs should be represented, you can put them in.Dr Zen 22:53, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • It is you who has the problem. You just reverted some guy who made a change of case edit. Sad. - Robert the Bruce 02:05, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • No. I reverted you, dude. The change of case was to your edit to the page. Revert the page once more and I'm going to ask for you to be blocked for vandalism.Dr Zen 02:06, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I would be interested to read your motivation for that. - Robert the Bruce 02:08, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, you picked up part of the other article and used that to push your POV. You're not interested in discussion or trying to form a consensus, simply pushing the view you want in the article. Fine. I'm not bothered enough to oppose you in doing that. What's the point? POV pushers will go to any end, including reregistering, to try to "win".Dr Zen 02:17, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • What do you suggest is my POV in this? - Robert the Bruce 02:20, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • You mean you don't know?Dr Zen 04:42, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I suggest you don't take a POV at all. How about that?Dr Zen 04:50, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Not quite good enough I'm afraid. You stated clearly that I "picked up part of the other article and used that to push your POV". I think its time for you to put or shut up, no? - Robert the Bruce 05:05, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've given you my suggestion. It's up to you what you do with it. Happy editing. Dr Zen 05:30, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yet another complaint about your behavior

Why are you so selfishly destructive? Are you as much of a posterior orifice in your real life? You enjoy accumulating a long list of complaints about your behavior ranging from the polite and reasoned to the exasperated? How can you possibly care enough about circumcision to act like this? alteripse 04:19, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • A question for you. Do you always react this way when you don't get your own way? - Robert the Bruce 04:37, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Foreskin

Exactly how is it non-NPOV to describe the foreskin as innervated (ie: as containing nerves)? Please explain your repeated reverts of this description. Exploding Boy 16:31, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

  • It is self evident to the point that there must be an ulterior reason for insert the word. Could you help unmask the POV being pushed there please? - Robert the Bruce 03:02, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Civility

On your entries in Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Foreskin fetish, would you review them carefully?

Your first comment was:

  • It is with interest that the desperation to have this article deleted or at least edited into a vanilla version is observed. If every article that is contentuous is deleted then Misplaced Pages would not be worth much. One should look past the reasons for deletion offered to the agenda. It is an important article in the context of the cirumcision debate.

Here you have unnecessarily applied the characterization "desperation" to the mere process of voting. Your point on contentious pieces is a good one, but it was not necessary to imply that anyone voting for deletion is desperate to get rid of a source of controversy.

Your second comment went even further:

  • I find it interesting to note that when I mention the agenda of a small group of activists they try to hide behind the notion that they actually reflect the opinions of all Wikipedians. I say once again that one needs to consider the agenda behind the desperation to delete this specific article.

This one seems to be a very broad attack, accusing those who voted for deletion of being "a small group of activists." It's even more puzzing because the only thing that had been added after your previous entry was a hostile statement by a single user who spoke only for himself.

In my opinion your comments here seem to be calculated to create a hostile atmosphere. I'm sorry if that wasn't the intention, but you are basically launching personal attacks on fellow contributors. To avoid souring the atmosphere, please moderate your comments on VfD. --Tony Sidaway 16:17, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC) (I recently changed my username from Minority Report).