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Lead section

Shortcut See also: WP:Lead section
For lead length see, #Size
Opening paragraphs
Further information: MOS:INTRO

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Misplaced Pages lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

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checkY Sweden, formally the Kingdom of Sweden, is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
☒N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail, duplication and tangible information
Shortcut Further information: Misplaced Pages:How to create and manage a good lead section

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article. The lead prose should provide clear, relevant information through links to relevant sub-articles about the country an relevant terms, rather than listing random stats and articles with minimal information about the country.

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checkY A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
☒N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

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Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. ]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

  • The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
  • The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
  • A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
  • A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
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  • If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
  • Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
  • Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
  • GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
  • HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
  • Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: ].
  • Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
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  • Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
  • Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.
Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

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Further information: Misplaced Pages:Summary style and Misplaced Pages:Too much detail Shortcut

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Comparison table of section sizes in country articles as a percentage of article size. Click image for latest data.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

  • Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
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  • Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
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  • Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
  • Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
  • See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
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Size
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Shortcut Main pages: Misplaced Pages:Article size and Misplaced Pages:Summary style § Article size
Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually 250 to 400 words as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.
  • Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
  • Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
  • Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
  • Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
  • Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
  • East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
  • Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
  • New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
  • Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"
Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles should be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

checkY== Economy ==

Main article: Economy of Canada

☒N== Economy ==

Main article: Economy of Canada

See also: Petroleum industry in Canada and Agriculture in Canada

Further information: Economic history of Canada and Early Canadian banking system

Charts

Shortcut

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams that lack any context or explanation such as; economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

Shortcut

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

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Transclusions

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This section is transcluded from Help:Transclusion. (edit | history) Shortcut Further information: Misplaced Pages:Transclusion costs and benefits

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

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  • Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Misplaced Pages articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

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Notes

  1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
  2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige
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Template:V0.5

Notice: This article is already too long. It is not intended to discuss all issues related to Canada, but serve only as an introduction. Before you add material to this article, please consider adding it instead to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, e.g., Politics of Canada, Geography of Canada, etc. Thank you.


Archives: Archive 1 ~ Archive 2 ~ Archive 3 ~ Archive 4 ~ Archive 5 ~ Archive 6 ~ Archive 7 ~ Archive 8 ~ Archive 9 ~ Archive 10

Discussion of Canada's official name: Canada's name ~ Official Name 1



Program vs. Programme

Since this appears to be cropping up in the recent edits... on the East coast, program would be preferred over programme, however they often would carry different meanings. Programme would specifically refer to a printed listing of events or a television show. CMacMillan 04:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Alberta, here. I might expect a programme, if I went out to a play, but otherwise program is by far the more common usage. --Q Canuck 04:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Vancouver Sun would be the same - Victoria is more "Britsh" but even there programme would be rare - likely only for a play --JimWae 05:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Canadian spelling

Do these searches:

  • +canada +programme
    (most of the above are French)
  • +canada +program

Even

  • "toronto star" +program
  • "toronto star" +programme

Which is the more common spelling in Canada?

We do not correct spellings when they are not only correct but ALSO the most predominant in that country --JimWae 04:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Yes, the searches - which are central Canadian dominant - do produce more results for programme in French than the program one, however the regionalist nature of language in Canada could sway the results. Try the same search for +Canada +programme, but add +"Cape Breton" or +"PEI" and you'll see a very different result set.


Not that I'm arguing for programme over program :) ... just a comment on how "common" isn't necessarily reflected by Google searches. Use the word "tickle" in Toronto and then try it in St. John's and the response will be radically different. CMacMillan 20:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
For what it is worth, I am Canadian and I have always seen it spelled program. The government of Canada is required to use correct Canadian spelling by law, here are some goverment websites that use this word. You will see on the french version of each page that Programme is used. While Canada speaks both English and French officially, I think the english version should be used as this is the english wikipedia. HighInBC 21:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, not necessarily. Health Canada, a government agency, uses Programme: , as does PISA . Programme, by the way, is the British spelling as well as the French spelling. CMacMillan
I see the point of misunderstanding here, proper names always use the original spelling. Health Canada's Tobacco Control Programme is a name of a group, but on the same page they use program. The same goes for Programme for International Student Assessment. HighInBC 13:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As I was sitting viewing the colourful harbour and writing cheques I came to the conclusion that I was wrong editing "program" for "programme". I will make the change. However, I did enjoy the responses I evoked!--Niloc 21:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


Kwakwaka'wakw big house

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The American State of Canada

File:About-our-logo.gif


"Canada became a Permanent Observer at the Organization of American States (OAS) in 1972, and then joined as the 33rd Member State on January 8, 1990." (Government of Canada) http://www.international.gc.ca/aboriginalplanet/750/around/international/aroas-en.asp

and "The Organization of American States" http://www.oas.org

Would we be able at this point to include "The American State of Canada" as the 33rd Member State? Intuitionz 18:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If you mean listing Canada in the article at Organization of American States, it's already there; otherwise, I don't understand what you mean or why you think Misplaced Pages would use the phrase "The American State of Canada" to denote anything. I'll be charitable and assume you're aware that the OAS is an organization of all of North and South America's independent countries (except for Cuba), and has nothing to do with constituent states of the USA. Bearcat 18:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

We should add under the Article Canada, "Canada is the 33rd member as an American State." Intuitionz 02:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"The American State of Canada" includes it's entity as a "member" State "Country" of Continental America, is what I was saying, which is important in disclosing Canada's LEGAL status in continental America. Intuitionz 18:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Sorry, but in Canadian english continental America means the 48 states of the US that aren't Alaska or Hawaii. Canada thus has no legal status in continental America. WilyD 18:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The term "The American State of Canada" has no legal standing, any more than "The American State of Venezuela", "The American State of Haiti" or the laughably redundant "The American State of the United States of America" would. The legal names of countries do not normally include references to their continents. Bearcat 19:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"Canada's LEGAL status in continental America" is as a sovereign nation or country. while attempts at precision and classification are welcome, listing canada as an american state makes about as much sense as listing esperanto as a canadian language. it can be argued as technically true but has no actual relevance. -- Denstat 23:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"The American State of Canada" refering to NOT the U.S. but to The Continent America, is LEGALY DEFINED an American State by signing and ratifying BY THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA with the Organization of American States in 1990. The GC's website is even called http://www.AmericasCanada.gc.ca This may not be in Canadian favor, but, by Legal means Canada has been part of America as an American State since 1990. Intuitionz 02:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record, the Government of Canada's website is at . Canada's been part of the America's as long as it's existed. It's membership in a particular organization has nothing to do with anything. What point is it that you're trying to make? --Q Canuck 03:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Correction: Canada's been part of the America's since 1990. Persuent the Organization of American States I just thought we could include Canada's recent membership of America. Intuitionz 04:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Saying Canada wasn't part of the Americas until 1990 is like saying Norway isn't part of Europe, because it's not part of the European Union. The Americas are a geographical landmass. Membership in an international organization doesn't change what continent you're on. --Q Canuck 12:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

America is generally understood to means the United States of America. The continetnal landmasses are known as North America and South America. Collectively, they are known as the Americas. There is no "American continent". Saying that "Canada is part of America" is not consistent with standard English-language usage of the word "America". It would therefore be confusing for readers and should not be used.

The term "American states" is more commonly used in English to refer to the 50 constituent states of the US. The fact that the term "American states" appears in the name of the OAS can also lead to confusion because it is not consistent with the more common usage. As a result, it is not advisable to use it here.

Why would we say "Canada is the 33rd member as an American State" rather than the clearer and more precise, "Canada is the 33rd member of the Organization of American States"?

As far as the "American State of Canada", this is the very first time I have ever seen that phrase used. I doubt that it would be easy to find many examples of it being used elsewhere. As we all know, Misplaced Pages is not a place of original research -- see WP:NOR for the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. If you want to coin that term on your own website, go ahead, it's a free world wide web. But original research doesn't belong here. Ground Zero | t 12:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Googling "American State of Canada" provides six unique results. Two refer to the somewhat obscure area of ethnomusicology. The other four are about the Americanization of Canada, and America as an imperial power. So there is no support for the idea that this is an appropriate way of denoting Canada's membership in the OAS. Ground Zero | t 12:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Logo

What does the logo represent?

The four colours indicate the four main languages spoken throughout the hemisphere: blue (French); red (English); gold (Spanish); and green (Portuguese). That all four appear in both north and south America symbolizes both the widespread use of English and French in the south, and the growing interest among Canadians to learn about Latin American and Caribbean culture.

The "arms" that embrace the hemisphere symbolize the sense of common purpose, the foundation of shared values, and the belief that each nation has a stake in the well-being of the others - in short, the concept of "La gran familia". http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/latin-america/latinamerica/contact/about-logo-en.asp Intuitionz 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

six quarters?

The Demographics part of the article tells that three-quarters of the population (in Canada) lives within 160km from the US. border. Then it says "A similar proportion live in urban areas concentrated in the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor (notably the Toronto-Hamilton, Montreal, and Ottawa census metropolitan areas), the BC Lower Mainland (Vancouver and environs), and the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor in Alberta."

A similar propotion to what? to me it seems like that within the 160km and in the urban areas there live six quarters of the Canadian population, witch is a 50% more than there actualy is in whole Canada. I did not change this, since my non-english background may confuse my understanding of this sentence. Snalin 13:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if the statistics as cited are accurate, but the simplest explanation is that the areas described by "160km from the US border" and "the Quebec City-Windsor corridor etc." overlap. People in Montreal, for example, would be counted in both. That being said, the phrasing is awkward and redundant. I'd suggest: "Roughly three quarters of Canada's population is concentrated in the urban centres of three areas: the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor (notably the Toronto-Hamilton, Montreal, and Ottawa census metropolitan areas), the BC Lower Mainland (Vancouver and environs), and the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor in Alberta. Almost all of these are within 160 km of the U.S. border." --Nephtes 03:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Gov't "intervention" in the Economy

This section states that "Canada is a free market economy with slightly more government intervention than the United States, but much less than most European nations." Can someone tell me how these assessments have been measured? Absent some supporting material rooted in a set of criteria enjoying wide consensus, this sounds to me like one of those things supposedly "everyone knows" but which might prove more complicated than it first appears.

In addition, I'm not sure the word "intervention" isn't inherently POV, inasmuch as it appears to portray an authority or outside agent inserting itself into a sphere of activity in which it is not a natural participant. I agree that this is a widely-held view of government's role in the economy, but it's hardly a neutral one. The term used to describe such activity ought to be, however, and I'd propose "participation" as a less value-laden alternative to "intervention". --Rrburke 20:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is a good catch -- it isn't very helpful to a reader if we're just stating this baldly with no mention of what the criteria for this judgement is, or who makes it. We should attribute this appropriately. Jkelly 20:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Globe and Mail columnists view on Canada article

“ Considering my country's genuine allure, I decided to look up “Canada” on Misplaced Pages.com, the alt-encyclopedia that has a way of making even Newton's generalized binomial theorem sound exciting. Poring over the “Canadian culture” entry, I began to feel like a depressed Buffalo housewife making travel plans on a strict budget: Amid tawdry photographs of native art and that very space needle are multiple references to hockey, the RCMP and the common loon. Cited also is the fact that “many forms of American media and entertainment are popular, if not dominant, in Canada.” What would the average traveller anticipate, after executing this sort of cursory research? Dreary tours of Alf-faced totem poles? Hockey games called by Tony Danza impersonators? ”

This is just an FYI by the way, not a "this article sucks!". Maybe there's improvements that can be made based on this info, because although this is an encyclopedia, it shouldn't be seen as boring and depressing, much the same as Canada isn't boring or depressing. —B33R 11:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem with such a sort of analysis on an encyclopedia page, is that the encyclopedia page is not supposed to be promotional. They have a fundamentally different purpose. -- Jeff3000 15:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
You can't please everyone. HighInBC 16:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*sigh* It's a national pastime. Don't sweat it... wait until she reads the article on the Globe and Mail! CMacMillan 16:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the author of the article made some good points. There's definitely always room for improvement. There is always a tendency amongst non-Canadians to view our nation as simply existing in the shadow of the United States, and though there is certainly a great level of influence involved, as can be felt anywhere in the world, I think Canada is unfairly portrayed as such. Unfortunately, many Canadians themselves in recent years are also responsible for promulgating these stereotypes, mostly due to simple ignorance and lack of education regarding the Canadian political system. If Misplaced Pages can help to dispel such myths and clarify the cultural and political atmosphere of Canada, then why not take advantage of that? DragonRouge 22:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I can agree with this in principle, I always look askance at any kind of criticism that doesn't come with concrete, constructive ideas for improvement. What I would need to know before doing anything is, exactly what does our Globe columnist think the article should say? Bearcat 22:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
That particular columnist is not one I would look to for constructive criticism in any case. She wasn't looking to give advice on a better article; she was looking for padding for her column. If Misplaced Pages hadn't fit the bill, she would probably have gone to Heritage Canada next. Eron 22:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Nevertheless, she has a point. If "Culture" is seen more as arts and less as social customs, then the section is severely lacking. No mention of museums, art galleries, literature, music and musicians, festivals, etc. As for placing sports under the culture concept (as it's done in most articles about Canadian communities)... well, that's another story. --Qyd 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I generally agree with Eron about it being padding for her column, the fact remains that the majority of the page is about history and very basic general knowledge. As Qyd points out, there's nothing about modern day Canadian activities/life except for a paragraph about sport. All the other stuff seems to be sidelined onto other pages. I think 'Culture' needs a big overhaul, even if it only has a few extra paragraphs about museums, galleries, music etc. with links to the other pages for 'more info', it would be an improvement.
Anyway, I'm going to send an email to the columnist and see if she has anything else to say. If anyone wants to ask any neutral parties, who are familiar with Canada, for some constructive criticism then maybe we can get some ideas on how to improve Canada. —B33R 04:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that this page is supposed to serve as an introduction. It is not supposed to be all encompasing. Note the summary style guideline as well as the note at the top of the page which I repeast here:
"Notice: This article is already too long. It is not intended to discuss all issues related to Canada, but serve only as an introduction. Before you add material to this article, please consider adding it instead to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, e.g., Politics of Canada, Geography of Canada, etc. Thank you."
I would even support shortening the history section. It's way too long. -- Jeff3000 04:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I corrected vandalism. Other users please note and monitor.Avt tor 21:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Formal name

I had thought that Dominion of Canada was still the formal and official name of Canada, but it is not mentioned in the first sentence. Is this no longer so? DragonRouge 22:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Read the subsection on "Origin and history of the name", and/or the separate article Canada's name. Bearcat 22:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I missed that! Thanks. DragonRouge 22:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This issue has been discussed at great length at Talk:Canada's name, Talk:Canada's name/Archive and Talk:Canada's name/Archive2. Ground Zero | t 22:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the links! Interesting discussions. DragonRouge 22:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

What is "Canadian"

I note that "Canadian" (in parentheses) is defined as the largest ethnic group in Canada. I would like to know who qualifies as "Canadian" as distinct from "English" or other ethnic groups. Usually "ethnic" refers to national background. In this article does "English" refer to those Canadians born in England (I don't think the percentage would be anywhere near this figure) and if not, when does a "Canadian" become a "Canadian?" Dwallen11 19:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no standard qualification. The ethnicity reported in the census is entirely self-reported, respondants can list as many ethnicities as they choose, and (I think) it is not done by checking items in a list, but rather by writting in answers themselves. --thirty-seven 20:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Whenever he/she says he/she is. The 1991 Census provided a series of response check boxes (English, French, German, Italian, etc.), but lo and behold, the most often used were the people who wrote in "Canadian", although it was not a choice among the boxes. Stats Can bowed to the inevitable and in the 1996 Census, people had to write in all their ethnic origins, with "Canadian" given as one example among 24 (see 1996 Census handbook PDF file, p.60). People were asked to write in as many as applied to the question: "To which ethnic or cultural group(s) did this person's ancestors belong?" "Canadian" was by far the most popular response. Same thing in the 2001 Census. So this is what people say they are. Short of doing a geneological study on a large sample of Canadians, how else is one to get the information? And who is going to decide what ethnic group someone belong to? Luigizanasi 20:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The census question focuses on ancestors, in what I expect is an attempt to get at the real question: where did your people come from before they came here? As one of those who wrote in "Canadian" I can only offer an anecdotal explanation for why I did so. In my case, I have to go back to one of my great-grandparents to find someone who was not born in Canada. I can go back two or three more generations and find several ancestors who were born in Canada, or in the territory that became Canada. Given that, it seemed clear that my ancestry was primarily Canadian. (This is in contrast to my wife, a first-generation Canadian, who could not list that as her ethnicity because none of her ancestors were born here - even though she herself was.)

I think the increase in self-reported "Canadian-ness" over the last couple of decades comes from two sources. There is an increased awareness and acceptance of being Canadian as a primary identifier, and (related to this) there are increasing numbers of young (or at least, young-ish)Canadians who, like myself, can trace back several generations of Canadian ancestors and so question why they should be defined as having some other ethnicity. Eron 20:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I would have written in Canadian as well, for similar reasons: for several generations my ancestors have been born in Canada and more importantly (in my opinion), at least as far back as my grandparents (and probably farther) they *think/thought* of themselves as Canadian and not English, Scottish, Irish, etc. For the same reason, I would have also written in these other ethnicities, since going back a little farther I would have had ancestors identifying themselves in these terms.
I realize this is a very unscientific and arbitrary method, writing in how I think my ancestors would have self-identified - but I speculate this kind of reasoning is why many Canadians wrote in "Canadian" on the census. --thirty-seven 21:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I thought of putting in Etruscan, Cisalpine Gaul, and Samnite but I figured that maybe it would be going too far back. :-) Luigizanasi 01:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Colonial empires edit summary didn't display properly; confused.

In the introduction "]", which simply resulted in "Canada" being displayed as the link ... so I removed the pipe and now colonial empires displays properly. But I'm not sure if that is the proper markup, as it may refer to any colonial empires (with no Canadian context).

Sorry, but my editing comprehension around the possibly billions of internal links, pipes, etc., isn't up to speed with the potentially billions of hours it'll take me to ever figure it all out.

If anyone could help to clarify or fix up the edit, well at least it reads properly now instead of showing markup brackets and right in the intro within 10 seconds of reading. Someone must know how it was/is supposed to be. Thanks in advance for taking a peek. --S-Ranger 16:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

History section: "Although" seems misplaced

"Although Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada for a long time, some archaeological studies date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago."

Although what? It's a challenge: "Although Aboriginal tradition holds ... the proof is that they were here 26,500 years ago". Huh? "Although Aboriginal tradition holds ... archaeological studies prove otherwise," would make sense: if it were true and it's not. --S-Ranger 18:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how these "studies" prove "otherwise", and I also don't "get" the although. Sfahey 15:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. Anyone else? And looking at it, the whole paragraph has to be rewritten to remove "Although" at the beginning, in which case it will state nothing. Suggestions? WP:BB and all, I'm supposed to "be bold" and just change it, but I've looked it over a dozen or three times and don't even know what it's trying to state. The only solution I have (as yet) is to remove it all. But I didn't add it, am just one person and whomever(s) did add it must have meant something and just got the wording a bit mixed up. --S-Ranger 15:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I think what the sentence is trying to imply is that the First Nations tradition states that they've always been in this region, but that archeological studies only date back to X amount of time (which is less than forever). -- Jeff3000 16:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Not necessarily; it depends. For example, the time of the dinosaurs, 65 million years ago, could be a long time, or a billion years ago could be a long time. -- Jeff3000 16:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input and sorry for no five colon indentation (a bit much) but I am responding to the above. ;-)

Is it true (and verifiable) that Aboriginal tradition holds that "they" (any humans) have been anywhere on this planet forever? This planet hasn't been around forever (nor can humans truly comprehend forever/infinity), but 26,500 years pretty much amounts to "forever" in this hemisphere. 15 minutes in a line-up amounts to "forever" to busy folks who have "a billion" things to do every day and/or night. :-)

We'd need a reliable citation for verifiability if it were going to be changed to:

"Although Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada forever, some archaeological studies only date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago." (Bold for emphasis only.)

Where are we going to get the verifiability about what the Aboriginal peoples believed, 25,000 years ago or even 9,000 years ago? Where would they even get the verifiability from? "It was passed down from our ancestors" (which ones, from where, and for how long?) doesn't amount to it being accurate/verifiable. So then it has to be changed to:

"Although current Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada forever, some archaeological studies only date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago." (Bold for emphasis only.)

And is it accurate to claim "tradition" as opposed to "traditions", plural, given how massive this country is and that the Aboriginal peoples who migrated to south Ontario sometime between 26,500 years ago to 9,500 years ago (and I haven't seen any sources/verification for the alleged archaeological studies either; but haven't looked yet either) have held the same, whatever singular "tradition" is supposed to mean (beliefs), possibly ten thousands or so years after they had no contact with one another?

"Beliefs" might be more appropriate, because it's what is being claimed. Tradition can be belief, but it can also be a ceremony, like poker night, happy hour, etc., or a totally irrelevant Governor General and Lieutenants Governor, that we have in Canada for traditional reasons only; not beliefs that we're still part of the British Empire, or that the British Empire even exists anymore.

Sorry. I'm not trying to be impossibly picky, but am just trying to get it right. "Long time" (which means nothing; 15 minutes can be "eternity" depending upon what is happening to whomever, with their personality and perceptions) is stated: not "forever." And 26,500 years is certainly a very long time compared to Christian beliefs, for example, which are only 2006 years old (give or take) at best.

"Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada for a very long time and some archaeological studies prove so, dating human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago."

I'm not exactly happy with it, but it's better than what exists now and makes some sense, so rewording it further should be much easier. I just don't want to see "Aboriginal tradition holds" being tread upon: nothing personal, it's just that their "tradition" (faith, beliefs; why "tradition"?) are correct; as usual -- if "long time" (as stated now) is what their traditions, plural, hold.

And if not, it doesn't really say anything. "Very long time" is eye of the beholder and I can't imagine anyone claiming that 26,500 years isn't a very long time: as opposed to forever, in which case we need to get verifiability and from all of the Aboriginal peoples in Canada, or a study that they participated in and supplied the answers to.

Thoughts? --S-Ranger 17:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the last wording; I would go ahead and change it to it. -- Jeff3000 17:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all for the input. It can always be reverted, so, as suggested, I'll just change it to the above for now and see what happens. --S-Ranger 17:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, just made a minor change: I thought the phrasing "... studies prove so, ..." was a bit stilted, so I changed it to "... studies support this belief, ...". Besides, I think "prove" carries a sense that finality that I'm not sure is warranted. --Nephtes 18:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Perfect! I wasn't happy with that either but couldn't get the right words out (too many ales last night, I think). ;-) Thanks for the help. --S-Ranger 18:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

User Anonymous 57

User Anonymous 57 has added non-referenced tags to a whole bunch of sections. I've reverted him three times, so I can't do so any more, but this page is very-well referenced. All the general statements are in the books at the bottom of the page, and all the specific numbers and controversial statements have a ref tag. No where in Misplaced Pages does it state that every single statement has to have a ref tag. Other forms of referencing which this pages are acceptable, and this page has passed through featured article status. I would recommend other editors revert his changes. -- Jeff3000 20:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

If "all the general statements are in the books at the bottom of the page," then each of the general statements must be followed by the appropriate <ref name="..." /> tag. Until each statement is matched to the corresponding reference, the "citation needed" tags must remain. Please see WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR. Anonymous 57 20:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need to cite a source that says Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskachewan, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island are provinces of Canada? This goes beyond common sense into a ridiculously literal reading of a guideline. Sorry, such strong words are required to be used in this situation.--physicq210 20:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR, yes, these bald assertions must be backed up. If you know which of the sources already listed under "References" can be used to support them, please use the <ref /> tag as already described. Thanks. Anonymous 57 21:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Please read WP:UCS. A literal reading of rules will not be beneficial to anyone nor the encyclopedia. --physicq210 21:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
From WP:CITE:
"Inline citations for uncontroversial common knowledge items are not necessary. Common knowledge facts are those that appear in multiple reference textbooks for the field, all of which are listed in the references section of the article."
So the references at the bottom of the page are sufficient and extra ref tags are not necessary. -- Jeff3000 21:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Read Misplaced Pages:There's no common sense. There is no such thing as common knowledge. Now, I'm unfamiliar with the subject matter, so I'm not in a position to match statements to sources. If you have the books listed under the "References" section, why don't you? It would vastly improve the quality of this (currently almost entirely unsourced) article. Anonymous 57 21:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If there's no such thing as common knowledge, why does Misplaced Pages policy explicitely use it in their policy pages. If you're not familiar with the subject matter, you are in no position in doing what you are doing. -- Jeff3000 21:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, I'm far better equipped than you to judge what is and isn't "common knowledge" regarding Canada. Just because you know that Canada is separated into twelve provinces (or whatever) doesn't mean that everyone knows the same. These bald assertions need sources; they are not common knowledge. Anonymous 57 21:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The reference is there, you just choose not to accept it because it's not in a ref tag style. I would suggest you go read it. -- Jeff3000 21:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Then what's the point of using footnotes at all? Might as well just have a monolithic "references" section, because backing up individual statements is too much trouble, right? I hope you can see why your reasoning is wrong. Anonymous 57 21:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous 57, may I suggest instead you copy a leaf from WP:UCS. And yes, "UCS" stands for Use common sense. Respectfully, Ramdrake 21:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought we already went over this. There's no such thing as common sense. And even if there were, it's far from "common sense" that Canada has twelve provinces. Perhaps in Canada, but certainly not in the rest of the world. Anonymous 57 21:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
No, you are not far better equipped. If you were, you would actually be referencing the "unreferenced" statements rather than leaving others to interpret your vaguely worded "warnings." And, I really don't want to invoke this, but please read m:Don't be dense. --physicq210 21:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I can't reference those statements because I'm not familiar with the texts, so I leave it to others to match statements with their references. Honestly, how hard can this be to understand? Anonymous 57 21:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If you cannot find the references yourself, then don't go around needlessly peppering every featured article with {{unref}} tags. How hard is it to understand that? --physicq210 21:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
So anyone who can't find references should refrain from removing unverified, uncited content? That's contrary to policy and common procedure. I suggest you rethink that statement. Anonymous 57 21:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Once again, the references are there. You choose not to look at them. Also read the quoted section from WP:CITE again, not everything needs a footnote, there are multiple ways of citing content that is acceptable to Misplaced Pages policy. -- Jeff3000 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous, one simple principle of civility: if you can't or won't do it yourself, you're not in a good position to demand that others do it. You can always suggest, though. --Ramdrake 21:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm demanding nothing. By leaving "citation needed" tags where appropriate, I am suggesting to contributors that they provide sources for presently unverified text. No more, no less. Anonymous 57 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
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