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Possible addition to the disclaimer

See User:Andrewa/disclaimer and discuss at the Village Pump. Andrewa 03:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Age of Otzi

Material in the museum in Bolzano-Bozen puts his estimated age at 40 to 53 ...

Bernard Bolzano

I propose moving Bolzano (disambiguation) to Bolzano, since the latter should really be used as a disambiguation page rather than a redirect to this page. A quick Google search for "bolzano" turns up about 1.3 million results, half of which seem to be for the city and half of which are for the person Bernard Bolzano (and the top result is actually for the person). --Wclark 20:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I also found a mention here about the reasons for the original move. If nobody objects in either of these discussions within a few days, I'll go ahead and make the move. --Wclark 20:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Bolzano moved to "Bozen-Bolzano"

As an Italian city, should the article be listed under the Italian name Bolzano?

Pietro 06:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The city could be named int he two way: Bolzano or Bozen, this does not mean that its name is Bozen-Bolzano or Bolzano-Bozen. Put the articol under on of the two name (Bolzano or Bozen) and put a redirect on the other, but there is not a city called Bozen-Bolzano. AnyFile 10:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, the article should be "Bolzano", with a redirect from "Bozen". Pietro 11:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

If anything, the double name should be in the form "Bolzano-Bozen", since Bolzano is a bilingual italian city, but it's still in Italy. On it:Bolzano, the data panel lists the city as "Bolzano (Bozen)". Alfio 11:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the current way of naming has been agreed upon after a lenghty edit war, no point in stirring it up again, I suggest to leave it the current way since Bozen is with an italian majority, however is the capital city of Südtirol which is german speaking. In that case it could be argued, that Merano-Meran be renamed into Meran only, since the population there is German-speaking. However for the sake of harmony and language-equality better to leave it the way it is. Gryffindor 16:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
As we are in the English version of the Misplaced Pages, the English more common naming convention should be used. A Google.com search in English language for .uk domains gives the following results:
- city bolzano: 15.800 pages
- "bolzano-bozen": 1.300 pages
- city bozen: 470 pages
- "bozen-bolzano": 357 pages
Pietro 18:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further. Gryffindor 00:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

During the summer I raised the issue of moving the South Tyrolian locations to Italian article names at Talk:Meran-Merano. Markussep pointed out the current compromise system, which I find acceptable. Olessi 17:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It isn't a matter of keeping German or Italian names: we have to use English names. If Googlepedia is not the right way to sample common English, could it be Britannica, Columbia or Encarta ? Pietro 19:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but if you find 99 wrong pages, then Misplaced Pages has to follow??!
Bozen has two names. Officially. In 2005. Not one. Even if you don't like it.
Misplaced Pages IS NOT Encarta and IS NOT Britannica. It is better. It shows the reality.
Especially an Italian wishing to delete german South-Tyrolean names really gives a strange impression about the way Italy treats minorities... Fantasy 容 19:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Also: Why is there a redirect from Peking to Beijing. Everyone knew Peking, but "it was decided" that the official name is Beijing. So, if there are two official names for a city, we don't follow, only if there is one? Or are the Chinese leaders more important to Misplaced Pages then some German speaking people who are always suppressed by italians (as you see here)? Fantasy 容 19:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the above user. Any moves to strike everything down for Italian names to me does not sound objective or neutral anymore, it is a POV. If Italian users want to use the name Bolzano, that's fine they can do that in the Italian Misplaced Pages. And the German ones can use Bozen in the German one. However this is an English-International Misplaced Pages version, so obviously we have to be as neutral as possible. It is not easy, but it is possible. German and Italian are both official languages in South Tyrol, therefore the double names, why is this so difficult to accept? Gryffindor 23:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Even if German and Italian are both official languages in Alto Adige, in the English Misplaced Pages we have to use the name used by the English speaking people. People in Florence speak Italian, but the right title for the page is Florence, not Firenze. -- Pietro 07:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
If someone says in Misplaced Pages "we have to..." he does not understand Misplaced Pages.
Misplaced Pages is about a neutral point of view mixed with common sense.
Pietro, before you speak about "we have to" please try to understand how Misplaced Pages works. A hint: it has something to do with "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect" (that is particularely missing in your first post in this thread...) Fantasy 容 16:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
PS: In case don't understand why you don't respect other people: Bolzano is not an "Italian" city, it is a city where German and Italian speaking people live, incorporated as a autonomous province in the terretory of Italy.
Fantasy, my first post was due to the fact that this article (and some other else) have been renamed without any previous discussion about this action: opening a discussion about the name of a page is my sense of "working together", "understand each other" and "showing respect".
Concerning Bolzano, according Misplaced Pages it is an Italian city: in my opinion, this point is something to respect at the same level of the rights of the German people living in Bolzano, as described in the article.
As for what Misplaced Pages "has to do", in my understanding "being rigorous" about the info we publish is one of the main goal: showing respect to people accessing to en.Misplaced Pages to know how English people name Bolzano, for instance, "we have to" publish the right info, not a compromise between personal POV. -- Pietro 22:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

A proposal from a meeting between german and italian speaking Wikipedians

I just saw that italian and german speaking Wikipedians sat down together this weekend and found a kind of compromise: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol#What.27s_in_a_name.3F
one line is interresting "for Cities an villages in South Tyrol the german name shut be used if there are more etnic germans then italians (the same for ladin villages)"
Does this mean, that cities with italian majority should just have the italian name?
And that every time a "majority" changes the article name has to be changed (as it happens in Finnland with village-names)?
If this would be accepted as a general en.Misplaced Pages rule I think I could life with it. What do others say to this?
Maybe there are compromises out there, where we can meet, i hope so :-) Fantasy 容 17:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we should stick on bureaucracy. Since Bolzano/Bozen is an Italian city, and not a German one, and is also the only city in South Tyrol which is inhabited by more Italian-speaking people than German-speaking, using Bozen/Bolzano instead of the other one is just anachronistic nationalism. On our identity card documents are written first in Italian and then in German - that's clear since Bolzano/Bozen is in Italy. Also all road signs are written on the first line in Italian and on the second one in German, when quite everywhere else in South Tyrol the roads are written first in German and then in Italian, or they don't even have an Italian name. When you arrive at Bolzano/Bozen station you find the sign "Bolzano/Bozen", not "Bozen/Bolzano". Bolzano is a city placed in Italy nearly from a century, so it is clear that non-German speakers tend to use the Italian name instead of the German one. Bolzano/Bozen became a big city just because many Italians migrated there (and also obviously because of the Options that chased many of the previous German inhabitants), so it is logical to think of Bolzano primarily as an Italian city. The other big populated centers in South Tyrol are mainly of German language and it is right to leave them with the German name first; but Bolzano is a full Italian town where also the most part of Germans speak normally the other language.

I'm congratulating with Fantasy for his work on this page, but the choice of moving it to Bozen-Bolzano instead of Bolzano-Bozen is highly and openly unfair. Also each page with Bozen-Bolzano in its name should be changed according to this, leaving the rest of South Tyrolean cities the way they are.

--Σω 17:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There are streets in Bozen, witch aren' translated for beeing Names, der are also street with to completly different names like vic. sabbia - zum Talfergries and Kaiserau - Il Bivio if the street is called like Via Peter-Mair-Straße the italian via is everywhere the first You say Via NN in italian and NN-Straße in german--Martin Se 12:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I was not talking about how streets are translated from one language to another, but about the fact that street signs in Bolzano/Bozen are written _everywhere_ with the first line in Italian and the second line in German. That's something that doesn't happen in other cities in South Tyrol (maybe in some towns near BZ like Laives/Leifers or Bronzolo/Branzoll, but I don't swear it since I didn't notice the signs last times I've been there).
Since the street names are probably ordered on the population base, I think that criteria should be strictly followed, enforced by street signs criteria. Therefore at least the following inhabitated centers:
  • Bolzano/Bozen
  • Laives/Leifers
  • Salorno/Salurn
  • Bronzolo/Branzoll
which are mainly inhabited by Italians, as written on Italian wiki, should have a page with the first name in Italian. That's a good compromise that shouldn't hurt anyone within its nationalism. --Σω 12:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The whole history of the "Option" does not belong to this page.

Sorry to start another flame. But I think it is more appropriate to put the history of the Option in the South Tyrol page and remove it from this page. It really affected the whole region, not just Bolzano.

--Giac 20:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Wrong name of this article

"According to the 2001 census, 73% of the city inhabitants were Italian speakers."

If that is so, then why first name in the article title is in German and not in Italian? This is city in Italy with majority Italian spakers and I see no reason to have first name in German, a language spoken by only 23% of population. The name of the article should be changed to "Bolzano" or to "Bolzano-Bozen" at least. PANONIAN (talk) 17:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a good point, it seems that the compromise decided on above only works when it favours the Germans. Personally I think we should keep the double-barrel names (i.e. both versions) as whenever I look on atlasses of the area that I have to hand, they list both names usually slashed like Bolzano/Bozen. Since this dual naming seems to be an 'official' situation in the area I don't see any reason why we can't put both (or in Ladin areas all three) names for the towns and cities, with the majority inhabitants of that city given precedence (i.e. their version first). Following this rule, this page would be Bolzano-Bozen, while Merano's page would be Meran-Merano and for a Ladin example St. Ulrich in Gröden-Urtijëi-Ortisei (currently favouring the German name) should be Urtijëi-St. Ulrich in Gröden-Ortisei (80% are Ladin speakers, most bilingual in German hence German comes second and Italian comes last). I bet we have another edit war if someone tries to do anything that reasonable though Seek100 18:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no "favouring" towards any language. Since all three languages enjoy official equal status, it is irrelevant in that case who speaks more in what place. For the sake of order, in this case languages and names are listed by alphabetically. This is the most neutral solution and pre-empts any naming conflict based on number of speakers. Gryffindor 07:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but alphabetically Bolzano come before Bozen, my friend. :))) PANONIAN (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Let me clarify: Languages are listed alphabetically following the principle at the United Nations, regardless how many people speak what. Therefore the "G"erman comes before the "I"talian, etc. Gryffindor 17:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't Bolzen german slang for going really fast in a car? I'm Sicilian so I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, if the majority of the inhabitatns are Italiani, it should have the italian name first. On the other hand...that is so far north it might as well be Germany. We Sicilian-Americans have a term for people so far north in Italia, we call them yankees =P.--Josh Rocchio 21:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Because of the reasons explained above, I request that name of this article is changed and I propose voting about this. PANONIAN (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Please add your comments to the survey and discussion at the top of the page. Thanks. E Asterion 20:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)




Removal of double names

Following Andrewa and Markussep advices given here (as the one from Septentrionalis here) both of those criteria should be used. I agree for the elimination of double names, but I would like to remember that this kind of choice - for the many reasons given by both of you and by who's supporting the conversion to Bolzano-Bozen that such an action would automatically move the pages on Italian names, leaving German names to be redirected to that pages.

However, I think that this should be the fairest of solutions: removing the double names, even if German names are redirected to Italian ones and not vice versa, would also remove the question of "ordering". A user who enters wikipedia and writes "Bolzano" or "Bozen" would automatically be redirected to the right page, which explanes the reason why it is double-named. The actual criteria for choosing an only language for all South Tyrolean pagenames, given the fact that there is no English-translated name, should be that English-talking people searching for the city know or want to know the actual location of the city, which is in Italy. If the name they receive is the German one there is no problem: a page for Bozen will redirect actually in Bolzano, explaining the reason for double names; so will do the page for each one of the South-Tyrolean pages.

Even if I'm Italian and I actually like being it, I think nationalist questions should be left elsewhere on both sides of this barricade. Giving an only name to this page is a matter of knowledge organization (for which wikipedia should be a reference) and not of dominion of a population on the other one that a double-named page strongly shows. If there is no double name, no matter of ordering population will be taken out, and so I think it is the best solution for this problem. The rest of the pages should be also reordered, but I think they may remain the same. Of course the first thing we should put in evidence on the page of each city are the German and Ladin names; maybe someone could also write a page to link in forefront that explains the problem of double names, so to introduce people to reasons for choosing names of a language instead of the other one.

If this reasons are accepted (as I hope, because I think this is a community of reasoning people), therefore I propose the direct moving of this page and of all South-Tyrolean cities to the Italian names, leaving the redirect on German ones - for example: Bozen-Bolzano -> Bolzano, Brixen-Bressanone -> Bressanone etc. Votations are something that should be left to politics, not to something scientific as an encyclopedia.

--Σω 17:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Searching for either the German, Italian or Ladin name should always result in finding the article, and it will if there are redirects. I just found the language distributions from the 2001 (and 1991) census, see page 6. Most of the smaller) municipalities have a >90% German speaking majority (Meran just 51.5%). The exceptions with Italian and Ladin speaking majorities are:

Italian:

Ladin:

I like the idea of moving the articles to the name in the language of the majority, in the absence of a common English name. Comments? Markussep 12:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
If we move the pages on the name based on majority of inhabitants speaking a language we're back to the old problem: What if Merano/Meran population suddenly becomes mainly Italian? Do we have to keep watching the census and move the pages? Remember that these pages are mainly for users who don't know something about those cities, and one of the first things to know may be that they are in Italy.
Since there are no English names, removal of double names works only if we choose a common language through all that. Sincerely, English-speaking people who live not in a German area won't receive the German name first, unless they live in the pre-World War I; since the cities are in Italy they would search the Italian name, of course, and so maybe it would be better for encyclopedic uses if all names are turned to Italian. We must think of Wiki-users before than local inhabitants, as Centrx noted on the previous talk.
--Σω 19:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


There is a common English name, just look it up in an English atlas. Anyway, it doesn't exist a city called "Bozen-Bolzano", it's so simple. Just move this article to Bolzano (city) (because that's the English name) or Bozen (so some German wikipedians will not think that they "are always suppressed by i-talians").--Supparluca 07:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there will be many changes in population composition in the near future, and there's only a census once every 10 years. Meran is the only municipality where it's really close (and the German speaking majority was larger in 2001 than in 1991). It doesn't really matter if Wiki-users start searching for the German or the Italian name, if we create redirects from the other name. But I can live with moving all articles to the Italian names. (almost) Anything is better than these bi- and trilingual names. Markussep 17:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of what's more likely to happen, since it is equally possible that in 50 years the population languages do not change or that tomorrow all Italian people in South Tyrol and just them explode altogether leaving only ashes. If we're going to choose a stable criteria, it must not be based on local population which easily come and go (actually I'm not in Bolzano, maybe tomorrow the city becomes Bozen?); instead everything has to be ordered by the language mainly chosen by the entire community which lives not in South Tyrol.
I think I already gave reasons to choose Italian as a first language, but I'd like to support them with these statistical datas:
which show that Bolzano is overall 3 times more common than Bozen - unless obviously all people saying "Bozen" chose together to not write it on the Web. Shall we then start moving things to an only language?
--Σω 18:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, but I'll put it on "Requested moves" first. Markussep 20:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (old)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No decision, default not moved. Please discover some sources that evidence which name is the most commonly used in English. This is the standard of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions and is the proper location of an article on the English Misplaced Pages. Titles should not be hyphenated only to attest to different names; only if "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" were the most common name in English should either be used. After there has been agreement on which name is the most commonly used in English, you may open another Requested move; note that this is not a vote, the reasons are what counts and empty votes with no explanation of reasoning are not productive. —Centrx→talk • 04:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Bozen-Bolzano → Bolzano-Bozen – A vote is already underway but survey has not been listed here. See talk page for details. E Asterion 18:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Discussion

I don't see how the Italian should enjoy any preference over the German name in this case. All three languages are equal in Trentino-South Tyrol. So should villages with a Ladin majority have the Ladin name first? and then we count the few Italian and German speakers and argue which name comes next? Where does it end? The most simple solution is to go by the equal status, as is given in the United Nations, and list languages alphabetically. That would be the most neutral and fair solution IMO. Gryffindor 18:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Giovanni Ivan Benussi is NOT more mayor, because the Italian government's representant in Bozen-Bolzano chose a special administrative commissioner for the city and this one has already taken Benussi's place today (23th June, 2005). Bye.

Please let's get rid of these horrible bi- and trilingual article names. The article title should be one name, not two or three names in different languages. See for instance Natz - Schabs-Naz - Sciaves, is it Natz in German, Schabs-Naz in Ladin and Sciaves in Italian, or is it Natz-Schabs in German and Naz-Sciaves in Italian? If there is no common name for the place in English, let's take the name that is used by the majority of the population. Take for example the French-Dutch bilingual municipalities of Brussels capital region such as Auderghem (Oudergem in Dutch) and Watermael-Boitsfort (Watermaal-Bosvoorde in Dutch). Of course there should be redirects from the names in other languages, and they should be mentioned in the first line of the article. Markussep 13:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree that the hyphenated names should be eliminated, and I think that's what the current naming conventions say too. I don't agree that the preferred name should necessarily be what most of the population of the area use, although in practice that's likely to be the outcome.
The criterion is what most people use when speaking English. This includes people whose native language is not English of course. As many people speak English at least occasionally, in many areas (such as France where English is a compulsory school subject) the local usage of the name in English will drown out any usage by outsiders. Andrewa 06:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The English name of this city is Bolzano, and like Milan and Rome we should use the English name, not the Italian or German or German-Italian name.--Supparluca 08:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Bolzano is the Italian name, if anything. Gryffindor 12:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
What's the evidence of this? Andrewa 02:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
For example, it:Bolzano and www.comune.bolzano.it--Supparluca 07:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm... OK, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I took the comment to which I was replying to imply that Bolzano was not the English name. I don't doubt that it is the Italian name, I don't really care either way. What I'm looking for is evidence as to whether or not people use this name when speaking English. The links given are both to Italian language sites (pretty obviously in the case of Italian Misplaced Pages!), so they don't help with this.
I'm coming more and more to realise that there is no perfect answer to this one. IMO both names are probably acceptable, but we need to use one or the other. The problem is, to use either has political implications. This is a common problem with place names in multilingual areas. In that we're forced by our software and naming conventions to choose one name for the article, that choice shouldn't be seen as support by English Misplaced Pages for there even being a preferred name, let alone by implication for the territorial claims of an ethnic group.
I wonder whether perhaps we need to add a section to this effect to the Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer. Andrewa 07:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
One English source that uses the name Bolzano is (English, European map edition of) Microsoft Mappoint (and therefore, I expect Autoroute, etc). -- Ratarsed 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If anything, from my understanding of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (settlements) and the proposed Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names), the article should be renamed Bolzano (as the single widely accepted English name in modern context)?

Please sign your posts on talk pages, User:Ratarsed (diff). Andrewa 14:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city) and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names (stopped)

Currently the article names for South Tyrolian municipalities are bi- and trilingual, resulting in illegible prose like "S. Crestina - Gherdëina-St.Christina in Gröden-Santa Cristina Valgardena is a comune (municipality) in the South Tyrol in the Italian region Trentino-South Tyrol, located about 70 km northeast of Trento and about 30 km east of Bozen-Bolzano." I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names. See also the discussion under #Removal of double names. Markussep 20:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey (stopped)

  • Oppose This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages. There is a large community of German speakers in Bolzano/Bozen, so I don't think that it's plausible to sever the name to remove the German form.--Húsönd 00:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Changed my stance to neutral.--Húsönd 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose not a good idea what is being proposed here. Gryffindor 07:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support It's so obvious. 1)The English name is Bolzano 2)"This city is the capital of Alto Adige/Südtirol, which has both Italian and German as official languages" I don't think so; anyway, Rome has Italian as official language, why don't we call it "Roma"? 3)"There are some Germans who live in Bolzano" so what? There are also some Albanians who live in Bolzano 4)Bolzano is the English name, and even if you don't agree, call this article "Bolzano-Bozen" or "Bozen-Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen-Bulsan-Bocen-Boceno-Bolzan-Bauzanum-Bocenas-Bulsaun-Bolzanu-Buzzanu" is not a solution. Choose: Bolzano (city) or Bozen.--Supparluca 09:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Bozen-Bolzano is not the name of the city in any language, including English. South Tyrol does have two official languages, but that doesn't make its name Alto Adige-Südtirol. Or Freiburg-Fribourg, or Neuchâtel-Neuenburg, or Enghien-Edingen, or Leeuwarden-Ljouwert. Markussep 16:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. I think that the title should rather be "Bolzano/Bozen", instead of with a hyphen. But I cannot support the German form to be removed.--Húsönd 16:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not proposing complete removal of Bozen, just from the article name. There are several contexts in which "Bozen" should be used, for instance pre-1918 history, births, deaths etc. And Bozen will be/stay in the first line of the article, as the German name. BTW the slash doesn't make it better in my opinion, nobody calls it Bozen/Bolzano either. Markussep 16:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit divided now. I checked many other bilingual cities and they seem to bear just one name in the title of their respective articles. I could just change my stance to neutral, but I'm also not very fond of the "(city)" addition, considering that Bolzano/Bozen as city is likely the most common search. BTW, the slash doesn't mean that when referring to the name, both words are to be pronounced (that would happen with the hiphen). The slash just means that two forms exist and you may choose the one you prefer when referring to the city.--Húsönd 17:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Slashes are used in wikipedia to create hierarchy, better not use them in article titles. Markussep 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Good point. Oh well, I'll just change my stance to neutral.--Húsönd 22:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I would like that better as well. I had never heard of the mathematician, and he's disambiguated by his first name anyway. Markussep 21:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Please wait before adding more support/Oppose, because of the discussion about changing the question (see below and contribute there). Thanks :-) Fantasy 06:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Approval (not open yet)

Please vote for all you find acceptable; tactical voting to produce consensus is encouraged.

Discussion

STOP

Sorry if I interrupt, but this is wrong!
You propose
"I propose to move all municipalities to their Italian names, and create redirects from the German and Ladin names."
This has to go on a separate page, not on the Bozen-Bolzano page. It is a South Tyrolean issue, so put it there, not here.
Don mix up things, thanks ;-) Fantasy 17:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
PS: I fully support to find a solution for all South Tyrolen pages. Please stop doing single moves, this does not help us.
PPS: Someone proposed to move this to somewhere else. This is also not working, because you can not move a move-request. You have to reformulate and the discussion has also to be re-discussed, so simple move does not work. This ist just simply wrong.
It is on a separate page, being WP:RM. Since the name discussion (re)started here about Bolzano, I thought it best to have the move discussion about all South Tyrolean municipalities here.Markussep 17:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but the title clearly says "Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city)". This does not sound to me as an opinion on this could have an influence on all the other pages. The title would have to be "moving double names to single names" and then you would have to list the possibilities like
  • moving to Bozen
  • moving to Bolzano
Why should there be only one option?
You started it a little bit the wrong way. Maybe if you rethink about what you/we want to achieve we find a way all can agree on how to preceed. But for now I would strongly recommend to stop this kind of opinion poll before you don't have a good question people can give their opinion on. Fantasy 21:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it perfectly clear? My proposal is to move all municipalities to their Italian names. Since Bolzano is taken by a disambiguation page (there's a mathematician Bolzano), that's an exception. If it makes you feel better, I'll change the title. BTW this proposal is the result of a discussion I had some days ago (see below). That's why I didn't include other options, such as everything German, or everything to the name in the majority language of the municipality. Markussep 21:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
There is still some room for discussion, see above. This is essentially, however, a simple question: double name or single name? The approval poll will be a bit of a problem for the closing admin, but not too big a one. I doubt the wisdom of a !vote on all South Tyrolean names; there may be different arguments for Bolzano and for some barely notable hamlet on the side of an Alp; but I would bear this in mind when voting on the hamlet's article. Septentrionalis 21:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The article should be moved to whatever its most common denomination in English is (lest we forget, this is English Misplaced Pages). The page move request should not be about moving everything to its Italian name by default. I cannot vote for this as it stands after the title change. Asterion 21:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree; but I also think Bolzano is far more common than Bozen. Let's start with google:
Depending on how you count, that's either four or eight to one. Septentrionalis 21:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't use simple answers to complicated questions

The problem is, that for some places in South Tyrol the german name is more common, for some the italian. How do we decide what name is used for what place?

In South Tyrol we have officially two languages. How do you want to decide which one is more important.

Simply saying "lets take italian" means: I come from a place where 0 Null zero no niente Italians are living. Its a german place. No one uses the invented italian name. It did not exist until an italian came and tried to impose it without success. And now WIkipedia comes and imposes the italian name on all german speaking people in that place?

Think about what power Misplaced Pages has, and what you are doing to the minorities with simple answers to complicated questions. Fantasy 22:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we have agreed this discussion is *only* about Bolzano. As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English is should be chosen. Regards, Asterion 22:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a too simple answer. You can not change one South Tyrolean name (the main city!) without influencing the rest. It's a wrong milestone. We need a Solution for all names of South Tyrol. "As for the rest, whatever its most common name in English " is the wrong answer. You mean, we have 2000 discussions like this in 2000 pages??!! That is not a solution. Or do you really mean that?! Fantasy 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Fantasy, you're reasoning in terms of the place where you live, not from a neutral point of view. It is equally obvious that in a place in Italy where no one speaks German everyone will refer to the city as Bolzano and not Bozen.
Again, choosing a language on the other is NOT a matter of offending a people instead of another one. I personally think only very stupid people will offend themselves just because on an encyclopedia - which tends to be general - of another language it is preferred the name of a language instead of the other one. There is simply no political meaning behind that, whereas the title "Bozen-Bolzano" displays it a more clear preponderance of a group to another one.
To me - and to all reasoning people, I think - makes absolutely NO difference if the language chosen for ALL cities in South Tyrol is German or Italian ('cause the proposal of Markussep was just the start of this global convertion process). The reasons why Italian should be a better choice are widely explained in a previous topic.
I sincerely think that when the page will be moved to an only language, indifferently whether it would be German or Italian, all those questions of "offending" a part of the population will be quite completely forgotten.
Finally, you will see that you're the only one that's turning that problem to a gigantic size, by opening several threads trying to complicate something that is really simple when viewed from a logical side. Here there should be no space for nationalisms, from both sides. Making a final report on what we've found since now:
  • double and triple names should be removed, since:
    • 1. they show a priority of a language to another;
    • 2. they create ridiculously long pagenames, which on an encyclopedia - an organized system of notions that tends to be strict and direct - should be avoided at first.
  • the name should be chosen based on naming conventions, which consider the English-speaking community and the overall-speaking community.
  • answering to Gryffindor arguments, the English name is not necessarily a translated one, since in every language there are a lot of words taken from other languages which have become also part of the new language (for example, in Italian there is no other word for "computer", so "computer" has become an official Italian word). The language is born not by scientifically analizing the terms, but by common use and acceptance of certain words.
  • therefore the choice for the English wikipedia should be done based on popularity of the name. Google is a good statistical instrument for that sake. By looking at google.com you may see that quite all little cities in South Tyrol have equal pagecounts, with little prevalence of a language on another (for example, Meran has more pages than Merano, Brunico more than Bruneck, Vipiteno more than Sterzing, Brixen more than Bressanone etc). But for all towns where Italian-speaking people are more than German-speaking one the pagecounts are enormously unbalanced on Italian side - Bolzano has 3 times the pagecounts of Bozen, Laives 2.5 times the ones of Leifers, Bronzolo 2 times the ones of Branzoll, Salorno 1.5 times the ones of Salurn.
  • since there is such a great unbalance on names, based on the obvious reason that Italian names of Italian cities are more widely spread among the entire speaking community, therefore the Italian names should be preferred for ALL South Tyrolean cities.
We're not considering local disputes, which are left to people who cannot see further than their own nose. From the possibly widest point of view, South Tyrol is still part of Italy, and since this is not a South Tyrolean wikipedia but an English one - I'd rather say international - we should forget that double language problem.
If you find reasons for German names to be chosen instead of Italian, well, you may explain it here and discuss with the others. But the reiteration of things you continue to say from months without reading what the others write is not discussion. I think that people from Germany or from other parts of Italy don't even care of those double names, which are a problem taken out by German-speaking Southtyroleans first and Italian-speaking Southtyroleans second. Septentrionalis and Markussep easily agreed for the remotion of double names and the choice of an only language (which I previously supposed should be Italian); I think they are no Southtyroleans at all, and then may gain a much more neutral point of view rather than people who lives or lived in South Tyrol like me and you. Should we continue forever by complicating these stupid (sorry for the aggressive term) problems?
--Σω 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This request violets NPOV, the first rule Misplaced Pages is based on!

Just to remind everyone, the principal Misplaced Pages is based on (NPOV) states:

"all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, that is, they must represent all significant views fairly and without bias."

This is not an option, it is a must.

South Tyroleans had to endure torture and death to get german and italian officially as equal languages.

The City of Bolzano-Bozen has two official names. The only neutral way of naming it is by both names.

  • move to Bolzano -> you offend the german speaking people
  • move to Bozen -> you offend the italian speaking people

Misplaced Pages hast to be Neutral, it should never be used for political interrests. And Misplaced Pages does not really have a problem with names of an article being Bolzano-Bozen, this problem is irrelevant compared to the political issue.

If you care about the fundaments Misplaced Pages is based on, don't let people use Misplaced Pages for their political interests, Neutrality is everything. Fantasy 06:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

PS: And, in the end, you lie to Wikipedai-readers if you make them believe that it has one name only. Misplaced Pages should not be used to disseminate lies, the world is already full of it, dont fill WIkipedia as well.

That is not the point. Seville's official name in Spanish is Sevilla. Nonetheless, its name in English is still Seville. It is not about sensibilities in that sense. In the same way, in English we say Geneva and not Genève-Genf-Ginevra-Ginebra. The NPOV policy applies to the content of the article. You cannot make a title NPOV, you have to choose whatever its English denomination is (and Bozen-Bolzano or viceversa does not seem to be). Best regards, Asterion 06:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
"you have to choose whatever its English denomination is " Who sais that? That is your opinion. NPOV is not an opinion and applies to the whole article. The name is part of the content/message. Fantasy 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Please familiarise yourself with Misplaced Pages policies. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (city names). Asterion 06:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


I know that page, it states:
"Please note these conventions for naming settlements are merely guidelines, not rules written in stone ... The primary goal of this naming convention is to achieve consistency within each country . It does not necessarily achieve complete consistency across countries. Hence the remainder of the page is divided into specific guidelines for individual countries where required."
There is no entry for South Tyrol. That is what I am saying all the time. We need a guideline for South Tyrol, not moving pages around. Requests for move do not help us in any way.
If you are interrested in Working together with others in Misplaced Pages, then help establishing a South Tyrolean Guideline, not boykotting it by doing here a move, there a move, irritating everyone. Fantasy 07:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
PS: I am offline until next week, due to a congress (de:Connichi), sorry.

I think it is ludicruous to try to force a single name "in English". There is an Italian version and there is a German version, both of which are official and equal. So both versions are correct. Obviously a solution has to be found that can satisfy both sides, instead of forcing one version on the other. Because if you change one city, what about the other ones, it would be a complete mess? Gryffindor 07:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny, because you yourself have pushed for a single name in English for the Province of Bolzano (i.e. your South Tyrol). I've never witnessed such hypocritical behavior...
I see I opened Pandora's box here. It's not my intention to suppress minorities or something like that. I hope that most users understand that the present double or triple names are unworkable and unencyclopedic. Equal official status of two names doesn't mean that both names must be used all the time. I don't really care which name is chosen, but a choice must be made! The idea of making a guideline for it is fine with me. Markussep 08:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
And I think the current way is a good equilibrium. It has both the Italian and the German version in it, why try to force a version that many of the local inhabitants would see as "colonial" and "fascist"? I am not from that area, but I am very much aware of the sensitivities surrounding this issue and I think we need to thread very carefully here. Gryffindor 09:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposals

Please, Markussep, could you just change the title of the requested move ("Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city) and other South Tyrolian municipalities to their Italian names" ==> "Requested move Bozen-Bolzano to Bolzano (city)") so we can continue the survey? --Supparluca 11:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to start this circus for all 116 municipalities in South Tyrol separately, because that's an incredible waste of time for everyone. I'm going to make a better proposal soon. Markussep 12:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Why not do two or three test cases and then make a mass proposal, citing them as evidence of consensus?
I agree firmly with moving to single names in all cases, but English may not be consistent in which single name. Tyrol itself is an example, and google confirms my intuition that Brixen is slightly more common than Bressanone. Septentrionalis 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I actually anticipated you and did that here. I tested Google on a certain number of important citynames in South Tyrol, and as a result there is a sort of balance (NOT preponderance) on cities where German is the main language; instead, in cities where Italian is the main language there is a big prevalence for the Italian name.
The reason might be that the biggest part of the province, where German-speakers are the most, consists in places which are quite rural and detached, so they don't spread the German names in many places outside their homes. That obviously make the Italian names more proper for the task.
Also I add that, since South Tyrol is an Italian province, even the places for tourists have to learn a little Italian; where most of Italian Southtyroleans, knowing they're in Italy, don't actually have the need to learn German for their living.
These things are something normal for the local people; German Southtyroleans don't feel themselves "German", they feel "Southtyrolean". Italian Southtyroleans feel themselves Italian and Southtyrolean.
--Σω 16:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, Bressanone was probably more notable in the eighteenth century, when it was the capital of a sovereign bishopric, than it is now; and anglophones called it Brixen then. The usage survives. Septentrionalis 17:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You'll probably find different results if you only search in English books or scientific articles. I think it's safe to say that except for Bolzano, Meran and maybe Brixen there are few places in South Tyrol that are frequently mentioned in English language publications. You're right BTW, my only connection with South Tyrol is that I spent some days in Meran in '95 (nice town). IMO, there are three consistent ways to name all municipalities:

A - all Italian (rationale: they're in Italy)

B - all German (rationale: German speaking majority in South Tyrol)

C - all in the language of the local majority (103 German, 5 Italian, 8 Ladin, see my 2001 census based list here: #Removal of double names)

Exceptions should be made for towns that have a single widely used name in English. Shall we put this up for a survey? Markussep 17:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops; I did search English only, and posted the wrong URL; I hope that's fixed now. I would prefer to make the exception: where a preference in English usage can be determined; but that's still going to exclude most places. (The only case where English preference is obvious, outside the big towns, is Brenner.) I think this would be a reasonable poll, however. Septentrionalis 19:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

New survey about move

I have started a new survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol, in which I hope to reach better article titles for all municipalities in South Tyrol. Please add your contribution there. Markussep 18:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The result of the survey in a nutshell: if there's a commonly used name for the place in English, use that. Otherwise (given the fact that there are several official names for all municipalities in South Tyrol) use the name in the majority language spoken in that municipality. Markussep 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


Requested move

Bozen-Bolzano → Bolzano – See also the survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. The Italian name "Bolzano" was chosen, but Bolzano is currently a disambiguation page, which could/should move to Bolzano (disambiguation). Markussep 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC) Markussep 09:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

I don't agree. The official name is Bolzano, rarely I see Bolzano Bozen, but never Bozen-Bolzano.--Supparluca 11:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The official name is not "Bozen-Bolzano", it's Bozen and/or Bolzano, dependent on the language used. Markussep 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we actually have clear references that say what is the official name? At least the street signs say Bolzano-Bozen. Taalo 23:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments.

It was decided at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol that article titles for places in South Tyrol should not be bilingual. Bolzano has a Italian speaking majority (73%), and the Italian name is one of the official names of the city. "Bolzano" is more used in English than "Bozen". Both these arguments imply that "Bolzano" is preferable.

The reason that Bolzano is a disambiguation page, is the Czech mathematician Bernard Bolzano. Markussep 14:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you be so kind to point out exactly where it was decided what, in Talk:Communes of South Tyrol? I can not find any consensus.--Panarjedde 20:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If by consensus you mean 100% agreement, there isn't any. However, there is a big enough majority (62% including your vote in favour of double names) against double names. See the talk page. Markussep 21:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
May be I am wrong, but proposal A is 7-1, proposal B is 6-2, proposal C is 7-4, and proposal D is 5-8 (votes for-votes against). I do not see how anyone can claim consensus on this.--Panarjedde 23:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

City website

Currently there are two versions of the city website that are exactly the same page (www.gemeinde.bozen.it and www.comune.bolzano.it). Isn't it better to leave just the Italian version, since that page is already "bilingual" (see also Aosta (Italian-French), which has one version)?--Supparluca 20:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added both in that case to be fair to both sides. Gryffindor 11:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Province

The city Bolzano-Bozen is in IS the province of Bolzano (BZ). How can someone list the Province as South Tyrol. That is getting out of control with the German POV.

Better check your data before you start edit wars. According to the province's website, its Italian name is "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige, and its German name is "Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol". "South Tyrol" seems to me a reasonable name for the province (I'm not German BTW). You should sign your posts, you can do that using ~~~~. Markussep 19:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not attempting to start any edit war, I'm pointing out what is the truth. Anyone in Italy will no that this province is the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ). Just as the one below it is the Province of Trento (TN). The REGION that the Provinces of TN and BZ are in is Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. No offense, but it seems to you South Tyrol is a reasonable name for the province? This sounds kind of silly, when the name of the province is in fact based on the largest cities name. You have to realize that there is a long history on the WP of Austrisns (namely Gryffindor) that have pushed for a naming convention on WP that emphasize a German POV. We should at least be fair, considering Alto Adige/Sudtirol is a mixed Austrian/Italian region, and has been for centuries. Taalo 19:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Page should be moved

This page should be moved to Bolzano-Bozen. The city is in Italy, so the Italian name should come first. That, and that is the official name of the city, capturing both the Italian and German names for the city, since the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) is ethnically mixed. Taalo 20:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Gryffindor

I don't mean to make a personal attack on this individual, but the method that he has systematically had Bolzano-Bozen renamed as Bozen-Bolzano. The Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ) now referred to as the Province of South Tyrol.. and the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol referred to as Trentino-South Tyrol is quite creepy, to say the least. I read in the discussion above where Gryffindor writes, "I didn't know this project was called "Googlepedia" :-) Again, there are language sensitivities and it seems that this is the format that has been agreed upon. For the sake of harmony I would not push this issue further." Yes, of course he doesn't want to push it anymore, because it is now how he desires it (i.e. his own harmony). This process has been of the most scary I've seen on the WP and actually is foremost the type of "work" that discredits this project. Taalo 20:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)