Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by C Colden (talk | contribs) at 01:23, 28 November 2004 (→List Objections). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

User:Herschelkrustofsky has added to the section on Jeremiah Duggan that Baroness Symons has "hired a pro bono lawyer" to help the Duggan family. How can the minister have hired a pro bono lawyer? A lawyer who works pro bono is one working for the public good and not charging anyone. So in what sense was he "hired" by the minster?

I'm curious to know why you worded it that way, because that is the exact phrase that was used by the Lyndon LaRouche Executive Intelligence Review. Quoting the EIR without saying it's coming from them may make the article less NPOV. user:SlimVirgin

Incidentally, it is generally best to cite all sources, on both sides of a controversy, in an article. See Misplaced Pages:Cite your sources. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, my edit said "appointed a pro bono lawyer", which is not quite as incongruous as "hired," but I have changed it to "arranged for a pro bono lawyer." My information did come from EIR, just as your information came presumably from the Post and/or the Independent. I linked all three sources at the bottom of the article. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:47, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But how do you know that Baroness Symons appointed or arranged a lawyer for the family, and how do you know he is working pro bono? The LaRouche publication Executive Intelligence Review (EIR) does say this, but they don't quote anyone, and it's extremely unlikely that either the family or the lawyer would speak about their financial arrangements to EIR. So I feel we should get rid of pro bono, and the minister arranging it, unless we can refer to a source who is in a position to know. User:SlimVirgin 00:20, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, and I hope that you approve of my edit to change it. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

However, please note my proposal at Talk:Helga Zepp-LaRouche, that since you have written an entire article on the Duggan case, the material in the schiller Institute article should be merged with that article, keeping a brief reference in the Schiller Institute article with a link to the Duggan article. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:16, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for changing the pro bono part. I do agree with your edit.

My problem with the Schiller Institute article is that, if we remove most of the Duggan material, we are left with an article about an apparently innocent-sounding organization that loves music. Yet critics of the Schiller Institute, and there are many, see it as a fascist front organization for the LaRouche organization in Europe. Not to make prominent reference to these views is, in my view, dishonest. Therefore, I feel that a fairly lengthy section on the Duggan allegations in the Schiller article is justified. I agree that on the Zepp-LaRouche page there is probably no need for more than a few sentences on Duggan, but on the Schiller page, I would say it is currently their #1 political problem, and if it isn't, it ought to be. Perhaps we can reduce the Duggan section without emasculating it entirely? user:SlimVirgin 04:29, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The reason for the template box on each of the LaRouche-related articles is to indicate that the article that you are reading is, in effect, a sub-page of a really long article. I think it is appropriate to have a slightly redundant mention that the Insitute is connected to LaRouche who is controversial, has enemies, and is accused of everything under the sun, and a link to your Duggan article. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, could you explain why you don't want the Duggan material prominently on the Schiller Institute page? Imagine if your local supermarket were accused in a coroner's court of having poisoned a customer with its meat produce. The supermarket denies it, describing the allegation as "laughable.". Nonetheless, lawyers for the victim are trying to persuade police to investigate further, and the police have confirmed they are considering doing so. Along comes a journalist to write an article about the supermarket. He writes a long, glowing piece, mentioning the alleged death-by-poisoning of its customer and the possible police investigation only in passing. If you were to read this glowing piece, would you not wonder why the journalist tried to down-play the death? Would it not make you wonder about the journalist's objectivity?

I will reduce the Duggan material in the Schiller article as you requested as a compromise between us, but I will make it more than a passing reference. I hope this is an acceptable compromise for you. User:SlimVirgin 21:20, 15 Nov, 2004 (UTC)

The idea that the Schiller Institute is responsible for the death of Duggan is laughable. He was not an activist in the Institute, he just showed up at a conference. If he had been more involved, S.I. members might have recognized that he had a problem and told him to get help. You might as well blame the restaurant he had breakfast at. This is flimsiest pretext for an attack on LaRouche that I have yet seen. --C Colden 15:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

C Colden, I am reverting to the previous version as you have deleted information that is directly relevant to any discussion of the Schiller Institute and its membership. How do you know so much about Duggan that has not been published? Are you involved with the LaRouche organization? ] 18:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, SlimVirgin, the information that C Colden is citing is in the articles you cite. Duggan apparently attended the conference within a week of meeting a LYM organizer outside the Sorbonne. I don't see a big problem with her edit -- it mentions the Duggan case, which I think is sufficient, and I am merging whatever is presently in the Schiller Institute article, but not in the Duggan article, with the latter article. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, I believe you are wrong. The claims inserted by C Colden in this and the Jeremiah Duggan article were taken from Executive Intelligence Review, which is a LaRouche publication. user:SlimVirgin 21:27, 15 Nov, 2004 (UTC)

Herschel and C Colden, I have reduced the Jeremiah Duggan section from my original eight paragraphs to three paragraphs as a compromise. user:SlimVirgin 21:52, 15 Nov, 2004 (UTC)

It looks all right for now. We should continue to discuss and edit it, in hopes of reaching a point where we can remove the NPOV dispute tag. Believe me, it gave many people a sense of great accomplishment to remove all the NPOV dispute tags from the LaRouche articles one month ago. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:04, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, I believe that you inadvertantly deleted Colden's edit about the translations and so forth. I am restoring it. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:04, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Herschel, yes, that was inadvertent. Thank you for restoring it. user:SlimVirgin 22:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

neutrality tag

Is there any reason that the neutrality dispute tag should stay up? It looks like the editing disputes have been resolved. Weed Harper 21:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The editing disputes are resolved only in the sense that no one can be bothered to argue about it, I suspect. My own view is that it's bizarre that most of this article talks about the Institute's drama, poetry and music activities, when its main main (as I understand it) is to promote LaRouche's political views. Why would you prefer to remove the tag? Slim 22:18, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

You might want to take some time to familiarize yourself with the Institute by visiting its website. You have been editing this article with a particular agenda. Also, the neutrality tag indicates that something in the article is disputed. What in particular do you think is incorrect with respect to the article as it presently stands? --01:57, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I haven't been editing this article with an agenda, unless you call a desire that it be accurate and fair an agenda. This evening, I found on Usenet an example of a self-confessed LaRouche activist arguing with another poster over a LaRouche issue. The LaRouche activist then supplied a link to a Misplaced Pages LaRouche-related page as "evidence" that what he was arguing was correct. But the page he referred to had been edited by LaRouche activists/advocates. Finding this has strengthened my view that people connected to Lyndon LaRouche should not be editing articles that relate to him in any way. I feel there should be a NPOV dispute tag on all these articles, at the very least.

I have looked at the Institute's website. It looks to me like an organization set up to promote the views of Lyndon LaRouche, not a cultural organization. If you can refer me to material that would show me to be wrong, I'd appreciate it. I can't find any on their website.

Regarding what I dispute in the article, I dispute the entire tone of it, and the ordering of information, so that the Institute's main aims appear to be musical and cultural, a claim that you say is true, but have not backed up in any way.

Also, can you refer me to Misplaced Pages articles you have edited that have nothing to do with LaRouche, and into which you inserted material that had nothing to do with LaRouche? I've asked you this before but you must have missed the request. Slim 02:38, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

The Schiller Institute definately promotes LaRouche's views, but primarily his views on music and culture -- which is that music and culture are a moral force in society, and therefore political, which is also what Friedrich Schiller argued. You can easily look at my history of edits by going to my user page and clicking User Contributions. In the past week or so I have been preoccupied with the controversies on this page and your Duggan article, but you can look at the previous period by clicking here. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:46, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, Herschel, but I was hoping you'd tell me which articles you've edited that have nothing to do with LaRouche and into which you have not inserted any LaRouche-related material. I don't have time to go through the list myself. Slim 18:36, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

List Objections

Slim, please list your objections to the current version of this article, so we can edit it and return it to undisputed status. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:54, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My objection is the entire tone of the article, which implies that the main aims of the Schiller Institute are cultural and artistic, whereas the main aim in my view is to promote the political views of Lyndon LaRouche. If you want to maintain that the Institute is largely a cultural or artistic body, please cite third-party references to back up that assertion. I feel that, in order to follow the Arbitration Committee's ruling, you should back up every assertion you make about LaRouche with third-party attribution (that means non-LaRouche and also not someone parroting a LaRouche view) -- unless it's a quote from LaRouche or EIR in an article where they're responding to an allegation, as in the Jeremiah Du:ggan article where, of course, it's appropriate that they be given a chance to defend themselves. If you can't find third-party attribution for the cultural/artistic tag, then I feel the article should be rewritten to reflect the extent to which some organizations believe the Schiller Institute represents what many see as a cult, with quotes from those organizations. It is a question of balance and NPOV. Slim 17:25, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

List

1. I think that the disputed label should remain in place as long as the Jeremiah Duggan material remains in the article. It is inappropriate, a scurrilous and propagandistic attack, and is only there because SlimVirgin is an anti-LaRouche activist who is looking for opportunities to insert anti-LaRouche propaganda into Misplaced Pages articles. He hints at his real motives sometimes on talk pages; apparently he believes that he is defending the British Royal Family against accusations of misconduct in the death of Princess Diana. These accusations have come from LaRouche, and other sources as well. He ought to be honest and put whatever arguments he may have in an article on Princess Diana. --Caroline 01:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)