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Remove: G20 summits

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This year's summit has received short shrift at ITNC so it's time we reviewed its place at ITNR given it was added by virtue of a discussion in 2011. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• Remove if something notable comes from such dinner parties, we can add it via ITNC. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Remove - given the way this year's summit was handled, I see no reason to leave it on ITNR. As you correctly assert, anything really important can be suggested as a blurb at ITNC anyway. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Remove per nominator. If something notable happens it can be handled at ITN/C like with any other conference. I opposed the proposed blurb this year because it left we wondering "so what?" and nobody was able to come up with anything (until it ended a couple of days later, and even that was of disputed accuracy) other than "It's on ITN/R" which doesn't help readers in the slightest. Thryduulf (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Remove since this doesn't prevent listing through ITNC, it just removes a free pass that is no longer warranted as Thryduulf has shown. Bencherlite 09:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
• Remove for reasons given above, not every G20 is something of interest. But I do wonder if we need something within INTR that is "Usually is posted if some interesting element happens", in the case of g20, some type of new agreement between all g20's or the like. I'm not sure how many other elements would be similar to this, but this would at least keep mention of g20 on this page, not as an ITNR but that we do watch for any interesting results to happen. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Good idea. Such an "Events to watch for news stories" list would fit nicely with the upcoming ITN/R events that Fuebaey posts to WT:ITN every 3 months. The recently removed from ITN/R E3 expo would fit nicely on that list, as would I suspect several other major industry events and inter-government conferences. Thryduulf (talk) 17:42, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

• We used to have WP:In_the_news/Future_events but that fell into disuse and got mothballed. In practice, simple notes at WT:In_the_news should be sufficient. --LukeSurl 20:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

• I would support remove as it stands now, absent some sort of formal list as Masem suggests. 331dot (talk) 21:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
• Strong oppose to removal: why should it be removed? It is very notable, of high significance, of global nature, affects many worldwide and typically gets much press coverage. No reason to remove. If you don't like the summit or what comes out of them that wouldn't be reason to remove this from ITN/R. This is not some dinner party of some random people on random issues. --Fixuture (talk) 02:16, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

  The fact that the merits are in dispute by many people is enough reason to remove this, and allow the usual ITNC process to determine if it is posted- or see below regarding Masem's idea. 331dot (talk) 02:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

  Only at some G20 summits does something significant happen. When something significant does happen, it can be nominated at ITNC and (subject to article quality) I will very likely support, but I don't think "they're meeting"/"they met" is ITN worthy on its own, which is all we had this time, so an automatic pass for notability is not warranted. Thryduulf (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose removal this annual gathering of heads of state generates copious media coverage. I don't see anything in WP:ITN#Purpose about featuring stories we think are important, but I do see something about featuring content people would be looking for because it's "In the news". This years G20 article wasn't up to MP quality, but that's no reason to strike it from ITN/R. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 23:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Not being ITNR does not prevent this from being nominated at ITNC. The ITNR list is indeed a list of events that have consensus that they merit posting every year through there mere occurrence; i.e. what "we think is important". ITN has never been intended to merely parrot the press and editorial judgement has always been a part of consensus. The fact that the merits of posting this every year are in dispute is enough reason for this to not be ITNR. 331dot (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Moreover, it wasn't just quality that was concerning here, it was content and results of the summit, or lack of. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• Weak remove - I don't have a strong opinion on this one, but it's probably fine to leave to ITN/C. Not every iteration produces anything of significance - those summits that do can be nominated and posted on their merits. The question then becomes whether similar arguments apply to the G8 as well... Modest Genius 10:21, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
• It has been over a week since the last comment in this thread so I believe it is ready for an uninvolved admin to assess the consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 15:55, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Pakistan Super League

Pakistan Super League (PSL) is very popular and noteable not only in Pakistan but also in some other countries. Amirk94391 (talk) 07:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

@Amirk94391: Okay. Are you proposing that this be added to the ITNR list? I don't recall this ever being nominated at ITNC before; it should probably be tested there first. 331dot (talk) 07:57, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

@Amirk94391: Searching the archives at WP:ITNC, it seems that is has never been nominated. It has been mentioned in two previous discussions I can find, and not positively:

• At Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates/March 2009#March 22 an IP commented "It is a well known fact in cricketing world that IPL is the first and currently the only domestic league of its kind. Other cricket leagues, namely Stanford 20/20, KFC Twenty20 Big Bash, Twenty20 Cup and Pakistan Super League, barely attract any players from other countries." This was in a nomination of the announcement the second season of the IPL being played outside India.
• At Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates/May 2017# Indian Premier League Mfarazbaig said "I'm not sure it is notable enough. Sorry, we can't go posting the domestic T20 leagues in every major cricket-playing nation. If we post India's equivalent then we would also have to post those in Australia, Pakistan and maybe the West Indies too, all of which are just as high-level and prestigious."
• In the same May 2017 discussion Dmmaus said " I disagree that other domestic T20 competitions are on the same standing as the IPL. The IPL receives more media attention globally than the domestic T20 competitions in Australia, Pakistan, or the West Indies, and attracts the biggest international players and the highest contracts."

Given this, this has no chance of being added to ITNR at this time. I suggest you nominate the final of the 2018 competition (as the 2017 one has been and gone) at WP:ITN/C. If that nomination is (almost) unanimously supported based on the significance then you could nominate it again here afterwards (this was the case for the Women's Cricket World Cup recently). If however the nomination receives significant opposition on the significance, then it'll be best to wait until it's been posted two or three times at ITN/C before a nomination here. Thryduulf (talk) 08:24, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Well good for the PSL. What is your point? It's certainly nowhere near suitable for adding to ITNR; by my reckoning this is the fourth-highest-profile domestic T20 competition in the world. Even posting one of those (the IPL) is debatable, though has reached consensus. There's no chance of posting more of them. Modest Genius 10:52, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - I nominated this at ITNC this year. (see here)

@331dot: You may not recall but you supported its nomination at ITNC in February.

@Thryduulf: To counter the first point of your argument, you first need to know that Pakistan Super League did not even exist back in 2009. The IP surely was an overzealous Indian praising the IPL.

Secondly, it's unfortunate that you don't know the difference between Indian Premier League (IPL) and Pakistan Super League (PSL). You have misrepresented my comment that was made regarding the IPL and not about PSL. I request you make amends.

Thirdly, as to what @Dmmaus: said. Unlike IPL where the players are auctioned, the PSL uses a draft system. That is why players in the IPL get highest contracts and comparing the two would be like comparing apples and oranges. Also, both IPL and PSL attract very much the same big international players. For example, Eoin Morgan, Tymal Mills, Jason Roy, Chris Gayle, Brendon McCullum, Kieron Pollard, Samuel Badree, Mohammad Nabi, Chris Jordan, Darren Sammy, Marlon Samuels, Sunil Narine, Dwayne Smith and Sam Billings played the 2017 editions of both IPL and PSL. - Mfarazbaig (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose no compelling argument to not see this go through ITNC. There are vast numbers of Pakistani editors here, cricket editors here, etc, so if this really is a big enough deal then we'll see a consensus in its favour next time round, and then we can debate ITNR. Right now, if we don't even post after ITNC, we definitely don't add to ITNR. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for jogging my memory. I still am unsure as to putting it on the list. 331dot (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm not sure why my search didn't find this year's nomination, but given that it received very significant opposition on grounds of importance and significance (Modest Genius' comments are particularly relevant) adding it to ITN/R would first necessitate a fundamental change in the requirements - "Items which are listed on this page are considered to have already satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN, every time they occur." Thryduulf (talk) 22:35, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
• Comment In my opinion, this can preferably wait as the PSL only just finished its 2nd season this year. Once the brand grows, and more international players and broadcasters join in addition to the existing ones, this could possibly be arguable. The PSL's expansion and scope is no doubt impressive, knowing the league is in its infancy. Modest Genius above mentioned that it is the fourth highest-profile league, although the season 1 viewership figures in 2016 showed that it had 65 million television viewers in peak periods. So it is more likely second-placed in terms of viewership. The values of the franchises and base salaries of players are equivalent if not greater than those of Australia's Big Bash. Three out of the five current PSL franchise owners have also purchased franchises in Hong Kong (Islamabad United Owners Buy Hong Kong T20 Blitz Team) and South Africa's T20 league (IPL and PSL owners snap up South Africa franchises) so you could say that it has some global footprint. We've had some big opening ceremonies featuring artists like Sean Paul and Shaggy (who knows who season 3 will invite?) And it has some regional following (Meet PSL’s Indian and Bangladeshi fans; India watched PSL final online more than any other country: report)

The main drawback would be the fact that till now, all PSL games have been held in the UAE excluding the 2017 Pakistan Super League Final. So revenue-wise, the other leagues may earn more due to home crowds. The third season is expected to finally bring most of the PSL to Pakistan, assuming security issues are managed, and a sixth franchise was announced under Multan Sultans. These developments would be a good step in terms of raising the PSL's future profile. Just my two cents. Mar4d (talk) 16:43, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Support for now Let's see what happens afterwards. I'm sure we can make a few changes to suit it better.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

World Baseball Classic

The entry for the World Baseball Classic is suffixed by the odd note "or whatever form the tournament takes in years to come." I know almost nothing about the sport, but from reading the article it seems like this was very new when added to ITN/R but has since settled down and established its format. If that is correct I suggest removing the note. Significant changes seem not to be planned at this point, and if they do happen we should assess whether it still belongs on ITN/R at that time, not automatically assume it should regardless of the changes. In case the preceding is unclear, I am not proposing to remove the event from ITN/R (I think it should remain), just the note. I would just boldly do this, but I'm looking for a check from someone who follows the sport just to make sure I haven't misunderstood something. Thryduulf (talk) 00:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Baseball editor here. You appear to be right in your assumption. That comment references Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Recurring_items/Archive_1#Baseball, which talks about the tournament being a one-time thing, because that short thread is from 2008, and the first WBC was held in 2006. It was indeed held again three years later, in 2009, and then they changed it to be every four years, so it was held again in 2013, and again in 2017. It's expected to be held again in 2021 though there is no definitive announcement of that, or decision to change it. I expect it will remain in existence, though I can't verify the next one will be in 2021 as opposed to a different year. Baseball is no longer an Olympic sport and it's a top priority of the Commissioner of Baseball to expand the game internationally. I think the comment can be dropped, and we can address what to do about the ITN/R item if it doesn't happen again in 2021, for whatever reason (changing schedule, cancellation, etc.). – Muboshgu (talk) 01:47, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the footnote can be dropped. If the tournament changes then we can reassess. Modest Genius 11:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both, I've removed the note and added a link to this discussion as another reference for the item's inclusion on the list. Thryduulf (talk) 18:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Womens sports

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I don't feel that strongly about it, but what about a blanket addition of the women's edition of ITNR sports events (or the reverse if it exists). The two things driving this suggestion are:

• ITN has a significant male bias and this might help fix it up a bit
• sub-par articles still won't go up, I doubt we'll be inundated

Anyone have any thoughts? I don't feel strongly enough to defend this to the death, but it seemed reasonable to me. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

The thing is that not all women top-tier events receive the same coverage, as male equivalents (partly due to general interest and viewership), so this should be decided on case-by-case basis, especially since we already have a good deal of ITNR sports. I think we can post those few events where men and women are roughly equal, such as Women's World Chess Championship. And there was a proposal to add Women's World Chess Championship to ITNR, for which I was sympathetic, but it failed. Brandmeister 09:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

We have tended recently to post women's events when they occur at the same time and place(relatively) as a men's equivalent event.(Wimbeldon, for example) However, if the events occur at different times or different places(NCAA men's Division I tournament, vs. the women's) we judge each individually. I don't believe(could be wrong) we post the WNBA championship because it is far less popular than the NBA(rightfully or wrongly) and occurs at a different time. 331dot (talk) 10:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

There was a discussion not too long back where it was decided that if men's and women's events happen at the same time and as part of the same event then both (or neither) are on ITN/R. Where the events are separate they are considered independently of each other. Imho this is the correct way to handle things. If you want to see more women's sports at ITN/R then your best bet is to nominate some specific events for inclusion. Thryduulf (talk) 14:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Remove: Emmy Awards

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Once again, given demonstrable opposition to posting this in ITN/C, I am putting this up to be removed from ITN/R. It's entertainment industry navel-gazing, viewership is in steady decline, and the Emmys are becoming increasingly irrelevant in the on-demand age. Given the bar we set for ITN/R, there is no reason this should still be given automatic posting consideration.--WaltCip (talk) 12:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

While we're at it, should this be removed, retroactively pull the current Emmy Awards listing on ITN as the primary reason given to support its posting was that it was ITN/R.--WaltCip (talk) 13:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Agnostic on the ITNR listing, Oppose pulling. Being on ITNR isn't a big deal to me (I generally give primacy to article quality in my assessments anyways) but the article was improved to the minimal standards of quality and update before posting. There's no compelling reason to remove it from the main page other than to enforce one's own perosnal view of what the world SHOULD find important (rather than relying on the evidence of what it DOES find important). --Jayron32 13:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose As noted during the discussion, as long as the Emmys also are taking in on-demand shows as valid nominees, then they are keeping up with the times (comparatively, when the Emmys refused to include cable networks a decade+change ago, that was a problem, and the Academy was rightfully criticized for that, making them change their rules). The articles have generally be updated though I had to step in to fill in a description of the presentation, but that was not difficult, so it's not like a US Open (tennis) situation where no one is bothering to update.
  This does leave the question of if awards for American television should have ITN significance, and here's where it is tricky. I know Canada has an equivalent, and there's BAFTAS for the UK and I'm sure other nations have similar awards, so why just pick out the US? But we should recognize American television is a dominating media force compared to nearly all other nations. Recognizing the highest honors in that field at ITN seems completely reasonable. If anything I'd argue we should be including the British Academy Television Awards as ITNR as well as British shows also make a significant worldwide impact and so that we're not just limited to the television of one country. --MASEM (t) 13:12, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

  I'd have no problem with any similarly widely-viewed awards show also appearing on ITN, so long as the article is of sufficient quality. Media coverage is easy enough to verify, and beyond that, as long as we have a good article, we have met all the requirements (We have a quality article to show readers who have heard about a recent event elsewhere). --Jayron32 17:33, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

  The only issue with the BAFTA television awards right now is the lack of any type of description of the events, compared to say our most recent Emmy one. It's clearly an aired show, there's 2+ hr on BBC with a host, so it would need to be handled as we expected from the Emmys. --MASEM (t) 20:06, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose If "entertainment industry navel-gazing" and declining viewership are reasons to pull this from ITNR then we might as well rid of The Oscars too. It's silly to suggest it's irrelevant in the on-demand age when an on-demand show, The Handmaid's Tale, has just walked away with the Outstanding Drama Series award.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The top recognition in the field which gets a decent amount of attention and wide interest. I too am open to other similar events from other countries if their importance and newsworthiness can be demonstrated. I think American TV is picked out because (rightfully or wrongly) it is a media force, as Masem states. Off the top of my head I think a good argument could be made for the BAFTAS. We also already have an Indian film award, don't know if they do a TV one. 331dot (talk) 19:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
• Comment: This should specifically read as the Primetime Emmy Awards, to distinguish it from the Daytime Emmy Awards, Sports Emmy Awards, International Emmy Awards, or the other separate Emmys ceremonies. Note that many of the other Emmys ceremonies have similar category names. For example, the International Emmys also has categories for Best Comedy and Best Drama. I have thus changed it accordingly. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:36, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Remove self-congratulatory awards that recognize the supposedly "top" TV shows in the US (VEEP!?!?!?). At least the Oscars have a foreign film category. This is a cliquish anachronism with a dwindling audience of no importance outside a dying industry. If the show is noteworthy, it can always be nominated on its own merits. Plus, where is the RfC that established this as an ITNR item? Didn't think so. μηδείς (talk) 06:02, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

The industry is so near death that it picked a streaming only show as its best drama....... 331dot (talk) 08:15, 21 September 2017 (UTC)s

@Medeis: If the lack of a formal RfC for adding it was problematic it would have been removed when it was discussed in 2013. It wasn't, so it has consensus to be on the list unless and until this discussion closes with consensus against. Thryduulf (talk) 22:13, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose this is of interest to our readers, and we are not here to right great wrongs. Nothing has changed since the last RFC which re-affirmed its status as an ITNR entity. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per above really. The largest awards ceremony for one of the largest entertainment industries. If you doubt the sway TV holds over Wikipedians, journey over to the Report more often. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2017 (UTC)