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Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sanchez
As per discussion above, I'll add Jordi Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners, since this is stated by some mainstream media and political parties and fits the definition. See references. Thanks! --Jey (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
October 2017 content dispute
@Victorjjp and 212.169.202.5: Please discuss your dispute here. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, i will talk here. As for the controversy, as you can see here https://www.ecestaticos.com/file/74a2836b0ca6c66afce9f38788f15376/1508183799-2017-10-16-auto-prision-provisional-comunicada-y-sin-fianza.pdf. they are not in jail because of their political views. A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics) resolved they wanted to reoffend vi in the crimes they are accused of. The successor of one of the prosecuted has literally said they are going to commit the crimes again anyway (https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/17/catalunya/1508229944_368994.html) so the judge chose the preventive prison. You may agree or not with the decision but they are not political prisoners. Actually the head of the independentist movement is not in prison/not being judged at the moment. Stop shoehorning your opinions on objective matters
Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart completely fit the category of political prisoner. This is clear just by following the criteria described in the very same page we are talking about. Some of the criteria to classify a prisoner as political prisoner are:
In AI's usage, the term includes any prisoner whose case has a significant political element: whether the motivation of the prisoner's acts, the acts in themselves, or the motivation of the authorities.
...
In AI's use of the term, here are some examples of political prisoners:
...
a person accused or convicted of an ordinary crime committed in a political context, such as at a demonstration by a trade union or a peasants' organization;
Cuixart and Sanchez definitely meet that criteria (as well as other criteria listed in the page).
The judicial sentence has been challenged by many lawyers in Spain and abroad. Some examples:
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Junqueras-Demanem-PP-Fiscalia-Sanchez_0_1888611317.html
Lots of facts fully contradict the sentence. There was no violence. Not a single person injured. Additionally, a video has been released that proves the jailed persons actually requested the people to cease demonstrating. In the sentence, however, the opposite is said. See video in the following link: http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171017/432142495111/video-jordi-cuixart-jordi-sanchez-disolver-manifestacion-economia.html
Moreover, multiple personalities have already referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See:
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/we-have-political-prisoners-again-says-catalan-president
Due to all this evidence, Cuixart and Sanchez should be listed in the list of notable political prisoners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// To reduce controversy, and as a matter of principle, the organization's policy applies only to prisoners who have not committed or advocated violence. Thus, there are political prisoners who do not fit the narrower criteria for POCs. The organisation defines the differences as follows:
There was violence, as of broken cars, and police unable to leave the building they were in.
https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20170922/248725570_0.html http://www.publico.es/politica/fiscalia-presenta-denuncia-sedicion-protestas-catalunya.html
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
A lot of multiple personalities are against the use of force to not respect the law too.
And again you quote a video 9 hours into the riot to try to undermine the reputation and decision of a spanish judge, you said the protest was non violent but the people acussed are literally on top of a broken police car. Again, just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
As you can see the party of the acussed insists on comitting the same crimes and continue in his disturbance of the police work and the maintaining of the order. The preventive prison is not a matter of political views but a matter of safety.
For some reason i cannot see your further comments but in the edit page i can see that you are defending the political implications of the detention in a personal and biased opinion about the spanish justice not being impartial and democratic.I cannot discuss this any further because you are assuming one of the pillars of the democratic state to be false. I think the possibility of them being arrested because of their presunt crimes and the possibility of them commiting the crime again and not because a full-fledged national conspiracy between the government and the judicial power is more plausible and they should be kept out of the category of 'poliical prisoners' as they are just normal prisoners who just work in politics
@212.169.202.5: Stop deleting my content even in the talk page. If you are not willing to discuss perhaps you have no place in Misplaced Pages.
I am adding again the deleted text:
To your points, stating that "A spanish judge (independent from the government and their politics)" is simply your opinion. The lack of independence of the Spanish Justice is well known. See:
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/06/07/actualidad/1496827709_980747.html
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
c. if, for political motives, the length of the detention or its conditions are clearly out of proportion to the offence the person has been found guilty of or is suspected of; d. if, for political motives, he or she is detained in a discriminatory manner as compared to other persons; or,
Answering to your new claims:
The multiple personalities sources you quote all refer to quotations of people in the independentist movement, and is not backed by any international or even national recognition.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
just stop forcing your own opinion and discrediting the work of spanish justice
The links that I provided (and you deleted) show how Justice in Spain has a very low degree of independence. And the sources are certainly not supporting independence of Catalonia: a Spanish newspaper and the FMI. So, I am not discrediting Spain. Unfortunately, Spain does that to itself.
Overall, I have provided an overwhelming amount of evidence that proofs your claims are not sound.
ADDITIONAL CONTENT: Amnesty International has requested the set Cuixart and Sanchez free as the charges are "excessive." See: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur41/7308/2017/en/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victorjjp (talk • contribs) 19:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting. Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
That is simply not true. Multiple Members of European Parlament have condemned the imprisonment. They have also referred to Cuixart and Sanchez as political prisoners. See: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/meps-protest-incarceration-of-civil-society-leaders-in-front-of-european-parliament
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest showing they have little to no knowledge of situation and facts.
Many lawyers have said that this is not even a fault. Even if it was, the decision to provisionally jail them until the hearing would make sense for a murder or similar. In this case, it is completely unjustifiable. This also meets the following criteria listed in this page:
You also seem to have little knowledge in the reasons for the preventive prison in Spain, is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs and the judge considered them reasonable.
Again we go in the same direction, you dont agree with the judge's resolve and you personally think it is because of the politicization of the judicial power, and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits calling all of their articles lies.
The overwhelming amount of evidence are personal views on the judicial sistem and self-rebutted definitions of political prisoners. My claim is still solid and the should not be considered political prisoners. Again, i'm sorry if i edited your content but it was by mistake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.169.202.5 (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Did not delete them on purpose, i'm still new in wikipedia formatting.
Apology accepted.
Your evidence was discredited by yourself as the only definition of political prisoner you could use discard violence and i provided evidence proving they were violent protests.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
The article you posted show them defending them as leaders of a pacific protest
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
is not only related to the magnitude of the crime is also influenced to the possibility of the criminals doing the crime again, fleeing the country or destroying proofs
What crime? Asking people to go back home? Destroying proofs? Which ones? There is video evidence that they never resorted to violence. This is not a corruption case where there are books to destroy. Actually, there are many corruption cases where the people being investigated were not sentenced to preventive prison, even if they COULD destroy evidence. Honestly, unless you have some evidence to back your claims it is clear there was no reason to imprison them. Even Amnesty International has requested their release.
you dont agree with the judge
Not me. Many people, including lawyers, judges, politicians, both in Spain and internationally.
and your proof is El País a diary you discredited in past edits
Editorial articles in El Pais have been found to contain blatant lies in multiple occasions. The article I cite, however, simply refers to a report from the Council of Europe (a EU organization). Please, stop comparing apples to oranges.
- (edit conflict)I'm on the verge of deleting the whole section, per what I stated in my edit summary to maybe balance things out a little. The amount of discussion above about who is a political prisoner and who isn't -- we could add lots of people, and I mean lots, and the amount of people vouching to say 'He's not a political prisoner!' 'She should be added to the list!' -- not worth having this list. not (talk/contribs) 20:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @My name is not dave: I have no objection to that. If the list continues to be in the page, however, I believe Mr. Cuixart and Mr. Sanchez should be in the list. Specially now that even Amnesty International is calling for their immediate release. On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to carefully curate the current list in the article.
Again, same as before. No violence whatsoever.
Again, there was no violence. Adding post-its to the police car and climbing on top of them is certainly not a violent action. I have reasons to believe you live in Sevilla, so unless you were visiting Barcelona on that day you did not see what happened. Please, provide graphical evidence of violence. Otherwise, I would stop discussing about this point, as you have not given any evidence so far.
No point in arguing so far, i posted all the evidence about 3 broken police cars and your only argument is you were not there so its not true That level of delusion and not acknowledging the other arguments is not going to take us anwyhere.
Also El Pais lies when its useful to me is just mind-boggling, as for the crime is SEDITION, i just stated that hours ago, but youre misinterpreting and not refering to it on purpose
If you really believe that a full legal document is lying in the destruction of the cars and the violence to police agents is up to you, but again keep your conspiracy theories for yourself, I wasn't in the moon landing too, just in case you want to edit that page too.
I feel like i've lost a lot of time on this, and i don't want to change your mind, but it seems like at least for now the page is not going to be your political pamphlet.
- Look, Amnesty International has called for their immediate release. You know who is listed in this page as one of the organizations that define who is a political prisoner? I suppose you already guessed it (assuming you read the page, of course): it is Amnesty International. Honestly, I do not know how many other evidences you need. Try to be a little bit humble, please. I will keep pushing for the addition of Mr. Cuixart and Mr. Sanchez to this page, or the removal of the list.
@My name is not dave: Sorry if i bothered you with this whole issue, but people using wikipedia to push their personal agenda and propaganda is not acceptable in my opinion. Wouldn't like to destroy the work of others deleting the section.
- Well, Mr/Ms IP., nobody owns anything here. Working by consensus, we can create quality content -- and sometimes that involves sacrificing the work of others for the sake of article quality. I have no need to reiterate, but that list is a little WP:LISTCRUFTy, the inclusion of people there seems quite arbitrary. Why is there no Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn there, for example? This list could go on forever with notable political prisoners (in the sense that they have a Misplaced Pages article). @EvergreenFir: -- what do you make of this? Also pinging Inford, who warned the above IP about edit warring. not (talk/contribs) 21:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- @My name is not dave: Will try to comment tonight. Just got out of meeting. Now family obligation. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Edit warring = full protection
Please resubmit if longer is needed. There is a place at WP:rfpp with instructions on requesting an edit.Dlohcierekim (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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