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Any article beginning with 'soandso is an American White Supremist' is hard to take seriously as an encyclopedic work.

I make no apology for his political views but the fact remains that this is NOT how encyclopedias are written, particularly where the topic involves a living person.

There is some irony to this: His right to hold his viewpoint and express it is the same one used to malign it. Also, there's the matter that it is improbable that anyone contributing to this article's content has an entry of their own on WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.101.69.145 (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2017

Charles Manson has a rather prominent Misplaced Pages entry. Does that, in your view, make his opinions more valid here. And which is the article about you, yourself, on Misplaced Pages that you believe elevates your own viewpoint? --Epipelagic (talk) 02:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

If you have a specific change that you are proposing, please phrase it in the form "I think X should be changed to Y" and explain your reasons. Rockypedia (talk) 03:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages didn't choose the term. It came from sources regarding this subject. Edaham (talk) 03:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, when the subject of an article is an American White Supremist (sic), then that is EXACTLY how an encyclopedia article should begin.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:45, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• Editor from the Columbus area, I don't think anyone here is maligning Spencer. "White supremacist" is not a slur. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

• WP:TRIGGERED - DN (talk) 19:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I also find it highly suspect that he would be labeled as something he doesn't himself claim to be. I believe very strongly that the wording should be changed to remove the term as a factual descriptor. This is the first time I've seen this kind of language used in the first paragraph of a person's Misplaced Pages page. It reads like a slander piece. And Dr. Fleischman, I'm not sure how you can consider being called a "White Supremacist" to not be a pejorative -- would you be alright with being called a white supremacist, assuming you don't yourself identify as such? I also agree with the notion that this tarnishes Misplaced Pages's neutral reputation. I came here to learn more about the man, not to read an opinion piece. Dr.Novick (talk) 00:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Personally, I'd want to know what the reliable sources say Spencer is, along with what Spencer himself says he is. And that's what our article does, in accordance with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. This has been extensively hashed out over and over and over again on this page. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a disagreement over the definition of a white supremacist and how it differs from that of a white nationalist. White supremacists believe (as the name would imply) that white people are superior to other races and therefore should be dominant over them. This is in conflict with the beliefs of the group he's most commonly affiliated with (the Alt Right) and with the views he himself has espoused (white nationalism). Or, perhaps this is an assertion that nuance is unimportant in the context of the discussion of political beliefs -- which I think is misguided, at best. To be blunt, I find these opinionated mischaracterizations fairly alarming. I in no way agree with Richard Spencer nor the groups he identifies with, but I believe very strongly in correctly representing individuals' beliefs. I suspect this article will never be corrected, but it will continue to be a bruise on the impartial reputation and underlying idea behind this great site. I find it incredibly unfortunate that so many people in these positions of authority are completely unable to look past their clearly demonstrated bias (and/or ignorance). Dr.Novick (talk) 01:07, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

We're not going through this crap again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I find it admirable that this one description of all the pages on Misplaced Pages and this talk page have inspired you to register an account, and to weigh in here before you've even made a single edit with the account. I think more people should register and voice their opinions. It's also great that you already seem to be very familiar with Misplaced Pages policy, as many new users are not, and it takes them some time to understand how Misplaced Pages works re: reliable sources and all. Rockypedia (talk) 01:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the insinuation you're making. To be clear, I've never felt the need to register to add to a Misplaced Pages discussion because I've genuinely never encountered an article that made me cringe this hard after having read the first few sentences. I'm only familiar with the policies insofar as I've read through a few Talk pages over the years (including this one) -- if I've made some serious gaffe, please let me know (taking your comments at face value). I do find the wording of "reliable sources" curious, as that in and of itself is subjective -- although I'll leave that aside for the time being. My primary disagreement is with characterizing someone's beliefs as something other than which they themselves espouse, especially when these beliefs are inarguably negative and highly contentious. Calling someone a "white supremacist" is equivalent to calling someone a "hateful bigot". I genuinely find the attitudes here just as worrisome. Misplaced Pages should not be used as a platform to spread beliefs, by anyone. The impartiality of Misplaced Pages is something else I hold in the highest of regards. Dr.Novick (talk) 01:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Spencer does this professionally -- what would one expect to call him instead? K.e.coffman (talk) 01:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Are you saying Misplaced Pages should present people only in the light of the views they want to publicly claim for themselves? --Epipelagic (talk) 02:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair point. That said, I have seen no evidence to convince me that Richard Spencer is a white supremacist beyond news outlets asserting as much without any justification beyond "he's a white activist". I have no doubts that he is a white nationalist, but those are two distinctly different ideologies. As I said previously, nuance in this space is very important. Dr.Novick (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You hold the impartiality of Misplaced Pages in the highest of regards? What are you smoking? You need to come back down to earth, my Misplaced Pages-loving friend. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 03:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm being too idealistic, but I recall when Misplaced Pages first became well known as one of the first open source knowledge databases. I feel strongly about decentralized/open source systems. I realize that Misplaced Pages may not always be truly neutral, but that doesn't mean that, collectively, we shouldn't make every effort to make it so. Dr.Novick (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Let's give our new colleague a chance. (A hale and hearty welcome to Misplaced Pages, by the way.) The article cites numerous RS that identify Spencer as a white nationalist supremacist. If you have RS that say otherwise, by all means, share them. And since you're new, here's a timesaver: Stormfront and similar sites are not RS, so try to avoid sources of that caliber. Scaleshombre (talk) 04:10, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I will take your comment at face value and say thank you -- but your Stormfront remark is hard to not take tongue-in-cheek. Without getting too tin-foil-hat-y, I'm suspect of much of the main stream media nowadays. Calling Fox News or the Huffington Post 'legitimate' news sources simply because they're wide spread is something I have a very hard time taking seriously, as an example. Dr.Novick (talk) 04:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Edited to add: I do not disagree that he is a white nationalist -- he identifies as such. I vehemently disagree that he is a white supremacist, however. As I've said elsewhere, these are most certainly not the same thing. These people need to be understood before both sides get completely out of control (more so than they already are). Snide hyperbole on a person's wikipedia page is most certainly not going to help matters. I really hope people start taking this entire situation we find ourselves in more seriously. Dr.Novick (talk) 04:34, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

• Eh, Dr.Novick, "These people need to be understood"? Do they need a hug? And, eh, which side is out of control? I do believe that people should take this entire situation more seriously, yes, but attempting to "understand" white supremacists is not what I had in mind. Drmies (talk) 18:16, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, you've studied Misplaced Pages, so you know it's all about reliable sources, not editors' viewpoints. If you have RS backing up your claim, present them. Otherwise, to be blunt, it's irrelevant. Scaleshombre (talk) 05:11, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

maybe it would be better to discuss this on the RS noticeboa..... oh wait! wp:beans Edaham (talk) 05:53, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

"Reliable sources" are most certainly editors' viewpoints. A gedanken is in order: Consider if one of the hallowed RS came to the Wiki and edited articles, directly. Would that not be nearly in violation of the NPOV policies, if not actually? What is certain is that, in all cases of article writing, paticularly related to philosophy, the nature and quality of the source of information is what is judged, and factual information is invariably where a bulk of the value is. Turn the Wiki into an editorial board for all I care. The critical readers already know it is. Do it with facts, though, with a good dictionary by your side, and write well. I'd get behind that.140.254.77.235 (talk) 20:48, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Calling this a gedanken is downright silly. Misplaced Pages deals with this specific occurrence all the time, and this isn't anything remotely new. Many, many published authors contribute to Misplaced Pages. We have multiple Nobel prize winners editing both inside and outside their fields of expertise. These editors are also required to cite reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is, fundamentally, not a publisher of original research. This is a core aspect of encyclopedias, not just Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. There is subjectivity involved in identifying which sources are reliable and which are not, but this is less subjective than relying on self-described experts to figure out the 'facts'. Grayfell (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

No doubt it's common, and while the scenario is obviously reasonable to you, it is apparently not to the person to whom I gave my comment. Subjectivity is guaranteed for these types of articles, and most of the content is OR at some point. What is more silly than a gedanken's being called a gedanken, however, is the assertion that a suggestion to adhere to lexical aids to define our words ("supremacist" vs "nationalist") makes me a person who is asserting myself as a "self-described" expert. I merely reach for my lexicon. It requires no expertise. To ignore it and rely on the extreme depth of one's humble opinion regarding the definitions of words is to advertise one's expertise. Also, you should read old encyclopedias. Many articles had single authors who were regarded as experts in those subjects, often because of their original research. There's no reason to fear OR. It's the unscholarly OR we don't want, which this article reflects in several respects.140.254.77.235 (talk) 21:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Your assumptions about the person you are replying to are presumptuous, and also incorrect about Misplaced Pages's core approach. Misplaced Pages:No original research doesn't have the kind of qualifiers you're describing. The distinction between "scholarly" and "unscholarly" OR is subjective. Since it's opposed to Misplaced Pages's philosophy, using that here, in this article, would be treating this article as an exception. This would be substantially more subjective than using reliable sources.

There are also other problems with your comments, such as the extremely close overlap between 'white nationalism' and 'white supremacism' as defined by academics in their full context. Breaking down terms into their component words and then using a dictionary to define those individual words devoid of context is simplistic and unhelpful. Since these and other related points have already been discussed to death on this and other talk pages, this really doesn't need to be discussed again, however. Grayfell (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Another idea?

I also wondered about the first line. It's perfectly true... yet it seems... somehow not like an encyclopedia should begin. What about:

"Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 11, 1978) is an activist and speaker that espouses white supremacist views." (I would prefer).

Or: "Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 11, 1978) is an activist and speaker that espouses white nationalist views. Spencer rejects the label "white supremacist," and prefers to describe himself as an identitarian, though he is commonly understood to be a white supremacist." ...

Hm, then this seems to call into question the label. I think it's important to make clear that this is what he is.

Apart from that matter, can we remove the picture? I would prefer that we don't have a picture of this person, in case that is possible. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 14:55, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry, but you'll have to present a better reason than your preference. Drmies (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

This has been discussed ad nauseum, and there has been a clear and persistent consensus to describe the guy as a white supremacist, as supported by our verifiability policy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:42, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Why not "an organizer and speaker who espouses white supremacist views"? Wouldn't that be better? It's simply about how it sounds when you read it. This sounds like a slow high-school student writing a shit essay. "Charles Milles Manson (born Charles Milles Maddox, November 12, 1934):136–7 is an American criminal, convicted mass murderer, and former cult leader who led what became known as the Manson Family, a quasi-commune that arose in California in the late 1960s." See? That is how you write first sentences. How boring would it be if it simply said "Charles Milles Manson (born Charles Milles Maddox, November 12, 1934):136–7 is an American murderer." You kidding me? Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 07:12, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Someone who espouses white supremacist views is a white supremacist. You're just playing with brevity. What you are proposing sounds like editorializing and constitutes a slightly more subtle and vaguer way of distancing him from the manner in which he's most notably described. Given the weight of consensus and the number of times we have had to restate or reinforce it, I propose we write an FAQ for this page (and other's like it), which might save editors time when the next person comes along and starts an RfC or goes running to whatever notice board to re-air this dead horse. Edaham (talk) 07:18, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Agree with Edaham. The encyclopedic, neutral approach is to call a spade a spade. Anything else is obfuscation. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

If Spencer or his "associates" aren't happy with the label, let him win a defamation suit against Newsweek, CNN, et al. Until then, he's a white supremacist.Scaleshombre (talk) 16:42, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

No skin off my nose. I do suggest a FAQ to make sure no other editors suggest language improvements that bring the introductory sentence in line with other articles. I also hope you good chaps make every other Misplaced Pages article begin with a single declarative sentence. That would spread the joy. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

You mean like "Charles Milles Manson is an American criminal"? Drmies (talk) 18:13, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Or "Jeffrey Edward Epstein (born January 20, 1953) is an American financier and registered sex offender in the United States?" Sorry, but there is no dark overseer of Misplaced Pages who makes sure everything is 100% consistent. I nominate...you, o snarky one! --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, but this is just silly and a waste of time. I think every section that starts with "Snopes is a far-left website that promotes blah blah" should be removed immediately per WP:NOTFORUM. Drmies (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

thanks. I'm glad you approve. I've never written one before and think it would have to be based on consensus. So far the two of us are in favor. I'd like to hear some other thoughts on the matter though. Edaham (talk) 21:01, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Just my opinion, but I think it's worth it NOT to have an FAQ. I AGF with most editors, but on the off chance that an actual Spencer minion comes here looking to -- ahem -- whitewash their bro, let them waste as many hours possible reading the archives and/or tripping all over themselves as they get tangled up in the minutiae of WP policy. Better they expend their energies here than on the street. Scaleshombre (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with a bit of irony now and then, but Misplaced Pages was not designed as bait to lure misguided youths away from socially detrimental activities. Edaham (talk) 01:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Fully agree. But if they happen to wander over by themselves every so often, nothing wrong with watching them bang their heads against the walls for a bit. Scaleshombre (talk) 02:27, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many people have tried to point this out. There appears to be a small group of partisan people who have an inexplicable ax to grind. People on the left will already know this information from DNC talking points. Everyone else will see that it is partisan and stop reading after the first sentence. I don't know if they just simply don't understand the question or if they assume just by asking it that we are Spencer Supporters and therefore racist and therefore not worthy of an honest answer. My only guess is that maybe they hope that Richard Spencer will stumble on it and become convicted and change his ways! I would encourage you to look at the archive links on the talk pages. The debates will reveal a lot of useful information on Spencer but a lot of useful information on how intellectual bubbles are formed and reinforced and perceived as "truth." But, as the gate-keepers pointed out, you are not going to change their mind. S2pid80it (talk) 00:35, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

You've spent a month posting on this talk page repeating Spencer's own right-wing talking points on how victimized he is and trying to make his article more flattering to Spencer's preferred terminology. If it's important to you for people not to think you're a "Spencer Supporter", this was a mistake.

As for the idea that these changes would invite more people to read the entire article, that's not even remotely close to Misplaced Pages's goals, nor would that be a valid tactic if it were. The goal is to summarize his notability according to reliable sources. These sources overwhelmingly emphasize his extremism and racism, even if the specific language may differ slightly. If we start downplaying this in the lede in order to make the article more friendly for people who... believe that only leftists hate white supremacy? This sure sounds like political correctness to me. If accuracy is the goal, he is a white supremacist. In this case, simple language is the most neutral way to handle this. All of those many discussions in the archive you've read support this. Grayfell (talk) 01:16, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

@S2pid80it:, one more time just for luck: if you want to change the cited words in the lede while satisfying due weight, and RS you have these options 1) (this is the most 100% certain way) go to lots of reliable sources and get them to say something else about him - you might have to get the subject of the article to visit a few orphanages first. 2)go to the talk page of manual of style or npov etc and propose that those pages include "white supremacist" among the "words to watch" section, with some kind of guideline evectively limiting or curtailing the use of the word (inspite of the fact it's used everywhere). There's no partisan/liberal/leftist sneaky thing going on. There's a group of people who think we should use what ever words we find in a preponderance of sources based on wp:due and another group of people who think that certain words are so nasty that they contravene wp:blp guidelines and shouldn't be used as they are too value-laden. People in either of these two groups who state policy as their basis for altering the article will have their comments taken seriously by people like closing admins or uninvolved editors who contribute to RfCs. Anyone who even thinks that this is a political discussion is almost certainly approaching the debate from some kind of political standpoint, which is misaligned with Misplaced Pages's objectives. There aren't any 'gate keepers' in this debate. Essentially the argument boils down to a perceived conflict between our policies on RS and censorship and our strong policies protecting biographies of living persons. Anyone who brought either their politics or accusations of partisanship to this debate can go....wp:civil....up a tree. Edaham (talk) 01:22, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Richard Spencer has repeatedly opened his mouth and publicly demonstrated that he holds white supremacist and anti-Semitic viewpoints. Unless he publicly repudiates those views at any point, Misplaced Pages will continue to define Spencer just as he has defined himself: a notable white supremacist. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:40, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Why on earth should one have to find articles and "get them to call him" an activist who supports white nationalist and white supremacist views just to have the VERY BEGINNING of the article changed to not start out as "he's a white supremacist". As stated, this creates a very biased first impression to the article, shifting its image from one that's describing him to one that's labeling a still-living individual. Starting the article by describing him as an activist who supports white nationalist and white supremacist views doesn't actually alter what he is, it merely better specifies what he is while coming across as a little bit less biased. He's described several times within the article as an activist, and it seems that this is the most descriptive term for him. He's an activist who supports white nationalist ideals including some white supremacist ones.

White nationalism is an ideology subject to significant activism, and white supremacy is a branch of white nationalism. Saying that it's fine to go with "white supremacist" because that's a kind of white nationalist, as someone above said, is as ridiculous as saying it's fine to use the term "gem" instead of "mineral" because a gem is a kind of mineral (usually), completely ignoring the fact that not all minerals are gems or are purely gems. Like that, Spencer apparently is not "purely" a white supremacist, as there are enough aspects he rejects that he finds it inaccurate and rejects the term. Yes, he supports some ideals that may be more aligned with white supremacy than white nationalism, but it's really then a matter of just how much of the ideology a person has to support to be identified as such. And either way, opening up by saying he's something he has apparently denounced seems a little biased compared to stating that he's an individual who is associated with or supports some parts of the groups.

This is not to say that I am a supporter of his by any means. I'm no SJW but I still find his ideology to be absolutely vile. But that doesn't mean I have to disagree with the assessment of this article as appearing biased and lacking in the impartiality expected of an encyclopedia, especially when discussing a living person.98.197.193.213 (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Most reliable sources call him a white supremacist, not an activist. Our neutrality policy basically says we need to fairly represent the reliable sources. It's pretty much that simple. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:42, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Editors might also be interested in this CNN article: "Clarification: A previous version of this story referred to Richard Spencer a white rights activist. We have updated the story to more accurately refer to him as a white supremacist." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:07, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Cultural Christian

@DrFleischman: You have reverted my edit under the pretext of "unclear if speaker was referring to *that* kind of cultural Christian". I ask you to return the wiki link back. As you can notice in the interview, Spencer then explains to Martin what he means by calling himself a "cultural Christian" (8:40):

Martin: What is a "cultural Christian"?
Spencer: I grew up in a Christian background, I resonate with Christianity and so on.

It clearly corresponds with the definition in Cultural Christian: "cultural Christians are deists, pantheists, agnostics, atheists, and antitheists who adhere to Christian values and appreciate Christian culture. This kind of identification may be due to various factors, such as family background, personal experiences, and the social and cultural environment in which they grew up."--Russian Rocky (talk) 22:01, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Declined, but if the consensus overrules me then I'm fine with that. While I'm not a hardliner on MOS:LWQ, I think it's a bad idea when we're quoting a living person talking about their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Cultural Christian sounds like a primitive definition for a person who follows Judeo-Christian values. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

"Conservatism in the US" navbox

I removed the "Conservatism in the United States" template from the bottom of the article. Editor Rockypedia restored it, writing in the edit summary "there's approx. a thousand articles that describe Spencer's political stance as conservative." Most of the RS I've seen talk about Spencer's estrangement from mainstream conservatism, including his being booted from the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) earlier this year, and his firing from The American Conservative magazine because his views were too extreme. He may have started out as a mainstream conservative, but he's "evolved" into something very different. I think it's undue to keep the navbox on his page, and would like to get feedback on removing it. Scaleshombre (talk) 06:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I would point out that if there was a category "Mainstream Conservatism in the United States", then Spencer would not belong in it, per the arguments that Scaleshombre has made. However outside of mainstream conservatism they are, though, Spencer's views are definitely on one side of the political spectrum, and that's the conservative side. Rockypedia (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

One of two things is happening: Either you're using your own definition of "conserve/consevative," or the definition has changed. Spencer is actually quite liberal, not seeming to desire to conserve the values of the founding populous of the USA. Simply because both of you, perhaps, have become more liberal doesn't mean the other remains on the side on which he started. You'd simply both be liberals to varying degrees.140.254.77.235 (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Posting in the middle of an older discussion is poor-form and potentially misrepresents the ongoing discussion. If you want to comment about how reliable sources describe Spencer, include those sources, otherwise let old conversations die a natural death. Grayfell (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

No, not exactly. There are terms that describe Spencer's views more accurately -- alt-right, white nationalist, white supremacist, etc. Lumping him in as a conservative is undue. The article talks about his conservative roots, which is clearly appropriate and backed by RS. Including the Conservatism template, however, suggests that he's currently a significant figure in conservative politics, which is not supported by RS. It's like calling Mussolini a socialist, or Ronald Reagan a Democrat; it was true at earlier points in their careers, but it wasn't those affiliations that made them notable (or notorious, in Mussolini's case). We need to remove the template. Scaleshombre (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with you, and think those analogies are not accurate. However, I'm more than willing to go with consensus on this; if it turns out that a majority of other editors agree with you, then fine. Rockypedia (talk) 17:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I reviewed the page's history, and I noticed that the template was first added a few weeks ago without consensus. It really should have been discussed first. Also, I'm sure it's not your intent, but the template indirectly legitimizes Spencer's views by connecting them to mainstream conservatism. If there was an encyclopedic reason to do so (i.e., RS/due weight), then I'd have no problem with it. But that's not the case here. Why should we help him when we don't have to? Scaleshombre (talk) 18:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Rockypedia, could you list some of the articles you referred to? If RS validate your claim, I'd be more inclined to drop the issue. Scaleshombre (talk) 23:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

well, I found a handful, but I have to admit they're few and far between, and most, while decent sources, don't rise to the level of, say, New York Times reliability. Truth be told, I found more sources that describe how he's taken to calling conservatives "fags" and "flabby" on Twitter.

and does not approve of fellow conservative Richard Spencer, a 38-year-old controversial white nationalist who coined the term "alt-right" in 2010

Richard Spencer, another conservative speaker... drew protests in December

Two examples, but pretty thin. I've changed my opinion and I don't have a problem with the category being removed. Rockypedia (talk) 00:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate that you took another look at the sources, as well as your openness to revising your initial assessment accordingly. Thank you. Scaleshombre (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Final Observations From a Self-Described Neutral Observer

"refused to denounce Hitler"

this just seems like a personal attack on his character, with a gotcha topic that doesn't belong in the intro or article at all, if anything it could be better wordedWikigirl97 (talk) 02:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

following copied from my talk page. These are questions for the article's talk.

Edaham (talk) 03:40, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Wikigirl97 Can you elaborate on your "jewish gotcha bs" comment? I'm not sure how it's relevant to the article, but it might help us understand your issues a little better. Right now it seems that editing WP is the least of your problems. Scaleshombre (talk) 03:49, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

info on discretionary sanctions can be found here. Pursuant to your other queries, please read wp:v and wp:rs. We are at liberty to populate our articles with as much of what you clearly see as Fagin-esque attack material as we like - provided that it contributes to the subject at hand (which it does as the subject of the article is really only notable for saying this kind of stuff) and is reliably sourced. If someone wants to make a spectacle of themselves by saying lots of stupid stuff to reporters, they are in effect writing their own attack page by shining the light of their diatribe through our lense of impartiality. Lastly, using the word Jew as a racial slur term on my talk page is not OK per wp:civil. If nobody else takes this up in the meantime, I will file a report at wp:ANI the next time I see it happen. Edaham (talk) 05:48, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Wikigirl97, you probably ought to attempt to explain yourself here, because the use of a religion as a slur is not acceptable behavior from a Misplaced Pages editor. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:02, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that's no longer possible. (Hopefully the Cornfield has plenty of tiki torches to help her see at night.) Perhaps a moment of silence is in order. Scaleshombre (talk) 20:33, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

"She" has been CU blocked as a sock of {{user|Fishguy7)). Blamed her computer for the error (literally). But I can assure everyone that it was no error, whoever the person is behind the accounts that comment was just the tip of the iceberg. Doug Weller talk 12:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Well ain't that interesting. I knew she was a sock of someone, based on her editing history. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Correcting a Misrepresentation of BA honors

Wikipedians in charge of this semi-protected page, I would like to correct the record.

Richard Spencer did not graduate from the English department at UVA with "High Distinction." He was not a Distinguished Major in English and did not write a senior thesis for us. While I am happy to put an editor in touch with the Registrar here at the University of Virginia, the requested edit should be much easier than that to effect. This doesn’t rise to the level of the Philip Roth edit fiasco (https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/an-open-letter-to-wikipedia).

All a trusted editor needs to do is check the source cited here (The Atlantic, https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/his-kampf/524505/). The article states only, "He lasted just one academic year at Colgate before transferring to the University of Virginia, where he majored in music history and English."

Spencer seems to be inflating his credentials on his Misplaced Pages page. He was one of our run-of-the-mill majors.

On behalf of the English Department, I ask that you edit the following line:

In 2001, Spencer received a B.A. with High Distinction in English Literature and Music from the University of Virginia and, in 2003, an M.A. in the Humanities from the University of Chicago.

to read

In 2001, Spencer received a B.A. in English Literature and Music from the University of Virginia and, in 2003, an M.A. in the Humanities from the University of Chicago.

Our department deplores Spencer’s racist politics and censure his self-credentialing. We disown him. He dishonors The University.

Yours,

Brad Pasanek Director of Undergraduate Study English, University of Virginia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpasa13 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done Scaleshombre (talk) 17:13, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

FWIW this content was added by BrillLyle without sourcing in November 2016. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:53, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I take that back. It was sourced to Spencer's personal website, which has since been taken down. So Spencer basically lied about his academic credentials. Nice. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

The plot thickens. I did some digging, and there's a Newsweek piece that says he graduated with "high distinction...." It's an opinion piece, but it's by a Newsweek staffer. At the same time, though, we have the note above disputing the "high distinction" claim. I'm fine with leaving the disputed claim out. (I know this is definitely not Wiki policy, but I'm a firm believer in the notion that claims that redound to an a-hole's credit should be held to a higher standard of proof than that which applies to non-aholes.) That said, should this be looked into further? Scaleshombre (talk) 19:31, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

I think the situation is fairly clear. Spencer’s site misled both Misplaced Pages and Newsweek. There is no need to mention the disputed honor at all -- it's not particularly notable, but one sympathizes with the department’s embarrassment and eagerness to (partially) clear their record. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:11, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the Newsweek source is reliable. A few other unreliable sources said the same thing. We should be good. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 03:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

White supremacist debate in this talk page makes the news

The debate on this page has recently been featured in a news report about Misplaced Pages titled "Are Jews white and is Richard Spencer a white supremacist? Misplaced Pages debates" and published on the English edition of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. It seems this is the second such piece to be written for the newspaper (see: "The royal houses of Netanyahu and Baratheon: Inside this week's drama on Hebrew Misplaced Pages") by a writer called Omer Benjakob who claims to be researching Misplaced Pages. --192.118.73.36 (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

They should have "sic"'d my "sic". Volunteer Marek  09:07, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I believe writing that a news editor at one of the world's great newspapers "claims to be researching Misplaced Pages" is a BLP violation. MarkBernstein (talk) 13:06, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add descriptor "writer" to lead section, as I don't believe one's ideology, that being white supremacy, counts as an occupation. DanKasich (talk) 04:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)User:DanKasich DanKasich (talk) 04:25, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Please get consensus before requesting changes to the article that can be seen as controversial. SparklingPessimist 04:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Clarification - he isn't notable (per wp:n) for being a writer. He's notable for his positions and ideologies on things, which are noted in the lead. other things are written about him in accordance with wp:due, hence the fact that he's done other stuff is noted after the main reason for which he has achieved the notability required to warrant an article. Edaham (talk) 04:36, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2017

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Muhrarday (talk) 05:59, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

See response to the other request made below. SparklingPessimist 06:05, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Apologies, i forgot to mention what i would replace it to, which would be I think another sentence should be added below saying

"In October of 2014, Richard Spencer made the statement on his twitter: "Homosexuality has been a part of European societies and culture for millennia. It's not going away, not something to get worked up about.

using this tweet https://twitter.com/richardbspencer/status/528395974666764288?lang=en as a source. " Muhrarday (talk) 06:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

@Muhrarday: which sentence do you want replaced and could you provide a reliable source for the change? SparklingPessimist 06:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

 Not done For now. Please provide a reliable source for the change and specify which sentence you would like changed. SparklingPessimist 06:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, we need a reliable third-party source for this. For example if Spencer gives an interview to the Dallas Voice, we can cite that.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

It would have to be more than an interview transcript. I believe there's a consensus here that we're avoiding using primary sources to give Spencer a platform for his beliefs. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:16, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I obviously don't think we should cite non-reliable sources like Radix or his own Twitter account (which was suggested above). But an interview in a reliable source is fine by me. It makes no sense to censor his speech because the majority (myself included) views it as too heterodox/unpalatable. We can either AfD his article, or treat it like any other article.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:30, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Don't make ultimatums. Context always matters, so no article is treated like "any other article". Misplaced Pages shouldn't ignore context to provide loopholes for him to spread his garbage around. We must use caution and evaluate his comments on a case by case basis. We would need a sourced reason to include this beyond merely that he said it in an interview one time. This is the same with celebrity gossip if you want a comparison. Just because it can be sourced, that doesn't mean it should be included. Grayfell (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, any new content needs to be 'due' to be added to the article. I agree with you.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

His website

Richardbspencer.com is currently a boilerplate placeholder from a domain site. Archive.org shows this happened in mid-August, first through Squarespace, and then Hover. Rather than link to spam or potentially worse, it seems like it's better to remove the link until this resolves. Grayfell (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. - Ryk72 01:05, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Views on Socialism

There are numerous reputable sources which discuss his affinity for socialism and his radical left wing views on economics. Could someone please update the article to include them? www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-alt-right-is-not-truly-right/article/2631747 https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/06/26/richard-spencer-i-am-a-socialist-and-i-hate-the-right-wing/ www.pacificpundit.com/.../hey-look-white-supremacist-richard-spencer-is-a-socialist/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.147.71.98 (talk) 04:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

 Not done The links you provided are not reliable sources. Please provide a link to at least one source that has an established reputation for fact checking and accuracy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Speaking Engagements are not relevant?

I don't understand this revert which removed this well-sourced material:

The University of Cincinnati is going to permit him to be speak following a threatened a lawsuit. The president of the University of Cincinnati wrote a letter stating that Spencer has a First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Ohio State University was also threatened with a similar lawsuit but refused to let him speak.

References

1. http://local12.com/news/local/uc-decides-to-allow-white-supremacist-richard-spencer-to-speak-on-campus
2. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2017/10/13/uc-president-his-hate-only-makes-our-love-you-stronger/763445001/
3. http://www.citybeat.com/news/blog/20979204/morning-news-uc-officials-mum-on-potential-white-nationalist-speaker-ohio-reps-vote-against-hurricane-relie
4. http://radio.wosu.org/post/ohio-state-rejects-richard-spencer-university-cincinnati-will-let-him-speak#stream/0

Numerous other national sources have talked about his speaking engagements at various universities and the potential or actual violence that comes with them:

• Washington Post: "Federal judge stops Auburn from canceling white nationalist Richard Spencer speech. Protests and a scuffle greet him"
• Washington Post: "Lawsuit seeks to force Michigan State to let Richard Spencer speak on campus"

• US News and World Report: Auburn Pays $29,000 to End Suit Over White Nationalist
• Washington Times: White nationalist Richard Spencer plots Berkeley event after Ann Coulter cancels Thursday speech
• Newsweek: AFTER ANN COULTER NIXES BERKELEY SPEECH, WHITE NATIONALIST RICHARD SPENCER VOWS TO VISIT
• WCJB: Richard Spencer to speak at University of Florida

Some of these are already covered. I am unclear why the speaking engagements with similar lawsuits and controversy in Ohio are not relevant.

--David Tornheim (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The editor that reverted you made it clear in his summary: "Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper." If, after he speaks there, there's significant coverage of the event in reliable sources, maybe there's a reason to add a sentence about the speech. Rockypedia (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I think the lawsuits are notable as highly unusual, which is why they are covered by several reliable third-party sources. I agree with you that we don't want to turn into this article into an advertising platform for his speaking engagements, but this is different. With those lawsuits, he is setting a precedent for future so-called "hate speakers" on college campuses. Thus, it seems due for inclusion.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:35, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

My main point is that we should still wait for an outcome or extended coverage of these lawsuits; otherwise we're still treating Misplaced Pages as a newspaper. Rockypedia (talk) 17:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

With those lawsuits, he is setting a precedent for future so-called "hate speakers" on college campuses. Unless you have a working time machine, you can't actually know that: WP:OR, WP:CRYSTAL, etc. --Calton | Talk 01:19, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• Pinging Calton, the editor who deleted the content in question. (This should have been done already...) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:41, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
• What Rockypedia said. I thought I was being as clear as can be, though perhaps I should have thrown in WP:CRYSTAL to boot: how, exactly, do you know that a FUTURE speaking engagement -- or almost any future event, really -- is actually significant? Short answer: you don't and you can't. If it happens AND it's in some way significant to his biography, go to town. --Calton | Talk 00:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
• Granting or denying permission to speak in the future is not a future event--it is a current event. So is the threat of a lawsuit or the filing of a lawsuit. The arrangement to allow white supremacists to speak on university campuses is controversial, which is why it is in the news throughout the country and why there are protests. We do not delete all references to budgets, which detail future spending.

There is now even more substantial coverage on the his plan to speak in Cincinnati:

• Chicago Tribune via AP: University of Cincinnati to allow white nationalist to speak

• Associated Press (through NBC4i: Groups plan protest during University of Cincinnati talk by white nationalist Richard Spencer
• same A.P. story via Fox8
• same A.P. story via 10tv
• another AP story via TalkingPoints

• Miami Herald: University of Cincinnati to allow white nationalist to speak
• Charlotte Observer (same story) listed under National News
• Denver CBS: http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/10/14/white-nationalist-university-speak/
• WPCO: White nationalist leader Richard Spencer will be allowed to speak at the University of Cincinnati
• Cleveland.com: University of Cincinnati to allow white supremacist Richard Spencer to speak on campus; Ohio State undecided
• WLWT White supremacist will be allowed to speak at the University of Cincinnati
• DailyMail: White nationalist Richard Spencer gets the go-ahead for a speech at the University of Cincinnati sparking fears of violence (Is this the banned source?)
• The lists goes on an on as the story was widely distributed via the Associated Press (A.P.)

--David Tornheim (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

So what? Dig up has many redistributed wire-service stories as you like, but you haven't even TRIED to address the actual objections. Want to give that a shot? --Calton | Talk 05:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I brought up the "precedent" argument to explain why the lawsuits matter, and why they should be included (besides weight of RS). You are focusing on the events and we are focusing on the lawsuits. The lawsuits are not Crystalball, they are in the here and now, which is why we believe they are due for inclusion. Inside Higher Ed has another interesting article:

• Roll, Nick (October 16, 2017). "Richard Spencer and a Tale of Two Publics". Inside Higher Ed. Retrieved October 16, 2017.

Where I probably agree with you is that he is getting too much content in reliable third-party sources for his terrible ideas. (And preventing him from speaking is making things worse, as he was a complete nobody when he was invited on campuses by Youth for Western Civilization in 2010-2011.) But we have to reflect the weight of reliable third-party sources about what's happened and what's happening. Or we could AfD his entire article as undue.Zigzig20s (talk) 08:59, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• ^I agree with a good portion of Zigzig's analysis. As for what must be addressed:

• Reliable Sources: The most important factor that must be considered for any material in Misplaced Pages is the extent to which is it is covered in reliable secondary sources. That's the gold standard for inclusion that every serious Wikipedian should know and follow. The suggestion that having numerous independent sources covering this is not important shocks me.
• WP:NOTNEWS does not say you can't cover current events and, in fact, says "editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage." Adding a few sentences does not unduly bias the article and puts it in due proportion to his other similar speaking events at other universities.
• WP:CRYSTAL This has been explained too. The sentences I proposed do not attempt to predict whether he will speak or whether there will be violence, they simply document the current controversial FACT of being given permission (or not being given permission) to speak, that he threatened a lawsuits, etc.

The included coverage of the MSU lawsuit is hardly different than what I proposed adding. The only difference between MSU and the two Ohio universities is that the lawsuit is already filed. Yet that lawsuit is not settled yet--no one is accusing this unsettled lawsuit of WP:CRYSTAL. I believe some of the significant coverage states that the reason Univ. of Cincinnati (U.C.) caved into the Spencer's demands to speak was because of the threat of a similar lawsuit, which U.C. might lose. The fact that the Auburn event (and the violence associated with it) was is not covered in the article seems odd to me, because there was more coverage of that actual speaking event (Google search) than of the MSU lawsuit (Google search) of a refused event. I do not see any consistency in the standards being used to decide what should or should not be in this article.

In that sense of strange standards, I tend to agree with Zigzig that the subject of this article probably has gained significance almost entirely because the media turned him into a big deal. For better or for worse, we do not control the media; we just reflect what reliable secondary sources say, whether we like their biases, due weight, etc. or not.

--David Tornheim (talk) 10:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• I have no dog in this fight, but I'll point out that David's original edit started with, "The University of Cincinnati is going to permit him to be speak ...," and was therefore inconsistent with his comments here that we're talking about events that already happened. Perhaps if the proposed content was re-written to focus on events that have already occurred (or are already occurring) then that will address everyone's concerns. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I would never has said "going to let him speak" instead of "permitting him to speak" if I had any idea it would be removed under the claim of WP:CRYSTAL. My choice echoed language found in many of the articles ("to allow"; "will allow"; etc.) Probably the choice of that tense by the author(s) was because the President's letter does not say Spencer unequivocally has permission to speak, giving the administration some leeway to block his speaking in the future. However, anyone who reads the letter, quotes, and articles can see the clear current intention of U.C. that they are presently allowing him and presently not objecting to his future speaking event. Like the threat of a lawsuit (which describes contingent threat of future behavior) this is a current action of expression of particular intention of the University, which contrasts with OSU's position. If either university changes their position, the article should be revised with the new information. I think simply changing the language from "is going to permit him to be speak" to "is permitting him to speak" would be sufficient. Do we agree? --David Tornheim (talk) 00:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Now that Florida's governor has declared a state of emergency, which is attracting quite a lot of media attention, this might be worth including. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Wow. Yes, I agree. Do you want to make draft changes--possibly directly to the article? I do think the lawsuit with Auburn and the event that followed should be added as well. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:10, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

No, first I'd rather get a rough consensus with input from Rockypedia, Calton, and any others who might have thoughts on it. It's coming up on Thursday so the whole WP:CRYSTAL thing will resolve itself shortly, but I do think the level of coverage now that the state of emergency has been declared warrants a mention in the article. However, I would rather achieve some agreement here before barging in and re-adding contested content. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the state of emergency declaration probably raises the profile of the event significantly; that WaPo article is a good source to start with. Rockypedia (talk) 12:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Cool, I've added it to the article, along with a brief mention of the amount of money spent on security and the outcome of his speech, both of which received heavy news coverage. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Suggestive wording

Just a minor concern. It feels rather off, sort of deliberately suggestive, to write about Spencer's opinion on Hitler the way this article does. Stating that he called things Hitler did despicable "without elaborating on which things he was referring to" is seriously suggestive. It deliberately raises the question of whether he is OK with various horrible things Hitler did. Merely stating that he said Hitler had "done things that I think are despicable" on its own impresses the general vagueness without pointing out that he didn't specify. If, in the interview, he specifically refused to go into specifics then it might be better to state that he was pressed to be more specific but refused. This makes it more clear that his lack of specificity was deliberate. But if he simply didn't specify, pointing out this lack of specificity is unnecessary and highly suggestive. If the journalist report this was taken from included this, then it should be specifically quoted to make it clear that this is a reference to a statement by another party. Otherwise, deeming it noteworthy to declare "he didn't specify" raises questions on the impartiality of the article. Plenty of people have said that Hitler and various other people have done horrible things and it's not considered noteworthy to mention that they didn't get into specifics after all.98.197.193.213 (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Disagree. The language reflects what is in the WP:RS provided. It is, however, just one article, and appears consistent with the New York Times article where supporters give the Nazi-salute and he uses the phrase "Hail ." If you have other WP:RS that shows that he condemns Hitler and/or the KKK, let's see it. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

That was not my point. He's denounced a number of aspects of white supremacy according to this article, such as the subjugation/enslavement of other races, but even if that is so, it's irrelevant to the way the description is stated. The point is that the very inclusion of a statement that he didn't specify what acts he did or didn't agree with creates a speculative implication, a suggestion that his omission was deliberate. If this was the case then it should be noted as a referenced point, perhaps even reworded to state that he "refused" to be more specific. If it wasn't the case then this amounts to nothing more than an editor wanting to make sure that people know Spencer hasn't directly denounced specific acts in said interview. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.197.193.213 (talk) 02:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

"He's denounced a number of aspects of white supremacy according to this article, such as the subjugation/enslavement of other races." Not true. Show us a quote from the article that he says enslavement or lynching are wrong. Everything I read in the article appears consistent with a White Supremacist outlook and belief that non-Anglo-Saxons are inferior to Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Saxons somehow have a "right" to own "their homeland" of America, and that non-whites should be made to leave and that this might involve violence. Sounds quite a bit like Hitler to me.

"is omission was deliberate." It was. He was being evasive by saying, "I won't play this game." That's what the writer is pointing out. When asked what "despicable things" Hitler did, he won't answer. Reasonable people would point out--without hesitation--the Holocaust.

The language we use matches what is in the article. If you have other WP:RS showing his criticism of white supremacy, Nazi's, Hitler, the KKK, etc. let's see it. I feel like you want to re-write this article for the author based on re-analysis of the facts, which is WP:OR. I don't see you getting much traction from relying exclusively on this article, which paints a very unflattering picture of Spencer. --David Tornheim (talk) 13:35, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit more sympathetic to 98.197.193.213's point. However all we can do is relay what the reliable sources are saying, and I don't believe the reliable sources answer 98.197.193.213's question. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps this audio recording of the interview will answer the OP's question. I personally have little interest in listening to it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

What is the question? --David Tornheim (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I listened to 44:40-50:00. I do now agree with 98.197.193.213 that the WP:RS under discussion was a bit biased or misleading in its representation of that part of the discussion, in key parts it left out. Although it is is safe to conclude that Spencer did not wish to completely "condemn" Hilter and the KKK, he indicated disapproval of both lynching and the Holocaust, and said he believes in non-violence. From reading the WP:RS under discussion, I had the false impression that he also refused to condemn lynching or the Holocaust--I prefer we not mislead readers in that way. My guess from listening to the exchange is that Spencer approves of Hitler's and the KKK's beliefs in white superiority, which is why he did not want to completely condemn either. I might be open to a revision to the language of the WP:lede to be more like the body. I'm open to other suggested revised language.

FYI. Spencer said at 43:50, "In the United State, when people say, 'the American people', 'Are you going to stick up for us?' I do think--whether they know it or not--they are assuming white people." That as well as his other comments confirm my acceptance of the label "white supremacist" that 98.197.193.213 is opposed to. Spencer did also say he was opposed to white separatism; however, he simultaneously seems to advocate for an all-white America. --David Tornheim (talk) 19:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The Daily Wire isn't reliable, and this is a great example of why. But I haven't managed to find a reliable secondary source that covers the interview. Can anyone else? If not, should we citing The Daily Caller source directly? I hate citing The Daily Caller, which isn't reliable as a secondary source, but in this case it could be used as a primary source for the recording itself. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:09, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

If we can't find a reliable secondary source, perhaps we should use the SoundCloud link. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:15, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

I would go further than this. Given that Spencer has specifically denied being a "white supremacist", the same logic appears to apply; in the absence of some statement of his that confirms the dictionary definition of "supremacist", and keeping in mind the dictionary definition of "supreme", it seems to me a direct contradiction of his statement by him is necessary, or, at least, something substantially MORE than just the weakly supported opinion of some writer, group of writers, or media personalities, before the assertion of "supremacist" can be used. A "guess" is not enough, and a thought that his reference to the American people likely included only whites is really not enough, either; I am frankly very disappointed that anyone would feel that such thinking would be seriously entertained by anyone here. This nation exists as a consequence of enormous immigration from all over the globe by persons of every color and creed over four hundred years; no sane person would believe that a reference to Americans implied only one color absent total ignorance or a substantial political motive. Various groups supported the creation of racial nations on various grounds in the past, and a few such nations still exist, and although times have changed, I can't recall any of the people involved ever having been labeled racial supremacists at ANY time, then or since. I believe the entire purpose of such labeling to be entirely political, and a basis for denying Spencer any speech rights at all. As far as I am concerned, this labeling does NOT support the denial of speech rights, but it is clear that some institutions believe otherwise, and Misplaced Pages's contribution to that support is to be avoided. It reflects very poorly on some of the persons involved, who would never support, for example, any theory that the Muslim religion perceived its beliefs as supremacist, though in fact some of the leaders of that religion quite readily espouse just that view, and are quite open about it.2001:5B0:47C4:D078:C818:5F20:7573:33D8 (talk) 23:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Regarding "white supremacist", we've already heard and discussed all this before, the IP is introducing nothing new at all, and nothing has changed. I've said more times than I can count that we've discussed this more times than I can count. Please look through the talk pages' archives for some discussions of exactly this issue, but also note that there are plenty more where that come from on other talk pages and notice boards.

White supremacy is broad concept which is studied in depth by academics (which Spencer is not), commented on by experts (which Spencer is not), and reported on by journalists (which Spencer is not). Trying to muddle the definition of the phrase "white supremacy" by chopping it up into its component words is a distraction at best. Likewise with the bit about unnamed hypothetical historical nations. He is still a white supremacist according to a constantly increasing number of reliable sources, and that's what matters to Misplaced Pages. Personal speculating about the motives for (accurately) labeling his positions do not belong here. Grayfell (talk) 00:11, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

@Grayfell: Thanks for that exposition. I would have hated to have tried to respond to that! It would be nice to have hard links to old discussions like this, especially for perennial issues, objections, etc. I have seen FAQ's created before, but I do not like those, as they are like separate articles within the talk page and are biased to only include the majority opinion. Hard links to old discussions (hard meaning--unchanging and not to be archived) are less likely to suffer from bias than hard summaries of past discussions, which are found in FAQs. Hard links to old discussions let readers review the discussions (including minority opinions)and conclude for themselves how any consensus was formed, who said what, and what the merits of the reasoning were, including the dissent. It is more work for the reader than a FAQ, of course, but I really do feel that FAQs are inappropriate on talk pages, except to answer the question: Where was this discussed before? Your summary is fine, because it is a soft summary, and you are clearly the author of the summary: It is not written with Wikivoice authority, like the FAQs I have seen. --David Tornheim (talk) 16:29, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Nina Kouprianova

Nina Kouprianova is not Russian American. She has immigrated to the United States and was not born in the United States. Kouprianova is Russian and probably has as much respect to the United States as Alexander Dugin. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:28, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

The case with Spencer looks like the old saying Cherchez la femme. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I've removed the Russian-American label, since it failed verification. Thanks for the tip. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:03, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Original Research -- what is on his website

This is original research, right?

His website says he left Duke "to pursue a life of thought-crime."

References

1. "About". RichardBSpencer.com. Retrieved November 22, 2016.

Not only that, the link is broken. I propose we strike it out. However, I know there may be certain reasons we include self-incriminating statements in Misplaced Pages. If there is a rule for that which is applicable, I'm all ears.

--David Tornheim (talk) 13:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, his website did actually say that. I don't see an issue, it's his own self-description of why he left. I interpreted it as a dig (by Spencer) at Duke or academia more generally.Fyddlestix (talk) 13:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Imagine how much drama the world would've been spared had Duke taught him why his ideas were wrong, instead of letting him go. Anyway, I don't think this is OR as it is a direct quote. But if the link is broken, that is problematic, and one could argue the quote is now undue.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:43, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

• Not original research. Review WP:PRIMARY. We are allowed to use primary sources. t becomes problematic is when large passages are based on them. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:18, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Primary sources are generally frowned upon. However, in this specific context the standard is WP:SELFPUB. I do believe it meets the requirements of that standard, if and only if: (1) the website can be verified as belonging to him and under his exclusive control and (2) the statement was not the result of a hacker.

I would be more comfortable if a secondary source mentioned it. I just looked, and it appears there is at least one secondary source: . I will add it. --David Tornheim (talk) 16:50, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Now that you added that source I've removed the ref to Spencer's dead website. There's no benefit to retaining a superfluous primary source that contains misinformation. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Ordering of "Views" sections

How should the "Views" section be ordered? A new section was just added, placing his views on the Iraq war at the top. I'm going to reorder it, but it'd be nice to get some additional feedback so this isn't just my own decision alone. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

In proportion to the WP:RS coverage of the views:

(1) Race

(2) Women

(3)-(4) either order Trump; Homosexuality

(5) Iraq War

--David Tornheim (talk) 02:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Also, I would change the title "Race" to "Race and Ethnicity." They are not the same. ("Ethnicity vs Race - Difference and Comparison | Diffen". Retrieved 2017-10-20.) --David Tornheim (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

This is a question of what source to use to decide upon an order and how to present that order from an MOS and BLPSTYLE perspective. Some things to watch:

• Weighing up sources to derive an order. To avoid Synth/OR, we shouldn't perform our own research on mentions of this subject by number of google hits per category. This might yield results, but we risk tainting them by making personal decisions on search terms etc.
• We shouldn't be too specific when listing these topics. If we can write this section as a flowing section of prose rather than making it seem like a list of views on each subject, we can avoid making it look like the subject headings were decided upon (i.e. synthesized) by our editors.
• We should probably take a single source, which deals with some of his views, and then present the material in our article in the order used in that source, that way we are basing our decisions on some actual tangible source material.

I'll add to this thread with some suggestions later.

Edaham (talk) 05:42, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

There is no requirement that the ordering be based on how the sources do it. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

there's no requirement. It's just a good idea. You're welcome. Edaham (talk) 14:00, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Some good ideas by Edaham. I certainly prefer a good narrative. I do find it interesting the issue of "making it look like the subject headings were decided upon (i.e. synthesized) by our editors." Of course, the people who write articles about his views are doing the same thing, especially relevant is the now-deleted sentence of his "refusal to renounce Hitler." There is no question that he has views that no one is writing about, some which may be far more important to him and his overall belief system than what is being presented in the media (or possibly even in his speeches or writings). I'm only saying this to point out that there really is no "correct" way to organize or categorize a person's views--this is all too familiar to me from studying intellectual giants like Descartes, Plato, Nietzsche, etc. Any choice will be subjective, and include labels the subject might find deeply offensive (e.g. many philosophers did not want to be labelled Existentialists; Alice Walker did not like being categorized in African-American fiction; Salman Rushdie did not want to have a nationality assigned to his writing). Regardless of this point, I do tend to agree with Edaham that our choice of organization should reflect the WP:RS if that is possible. I'm not sure it is. Sorry if everyone reading this is already well aware of this issue. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Univ. of Florida covarage

Some interesting articles worth noting:

• "University president: Richard Spencer hoping for violence to build movement". USA TODAY. Retrieved 2017-10-19.
• CNN, Eric Levenson,. "Richard Spencer, police and protesters descend on Univ. of Florida". CNN. Retrieved 2017-10-19. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• Pearce, Matt (2017-10-19). "University of Florida and local authorities brace for speech by white nationalist Richard Spencer". Los Angeles Times. ISSN 0458-3035. Retrieved 2017-10-19.
• "Richard Spencer speaks at University of Florida today. Who is he?". USA TODAY. Retrieved 2017-10-19.

I also found this, which is probably good WP:RS for the article in general:

• Wood, Graeme. "Richard Spencer Was My High-School Classmate". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2017-10-19.

--David Tornheim (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Attempted Murder Charge After Event (for supporters)

• Pearce, Matt. "White nationalist shot at protesters after Richard Spencer speech in Florida, police say". latimes.com. Retrieved 2017-10-20.
• "Richard Spencer supporters have been charged in a post-speech shooting". NBC News. Retrieved 2017-10-20.

Section proposal: Spencer at UF

I proposing to add content and create a new section. The event seems significant, especially given the continued coverage due to the actions of Spencer's supporters. I wanted to propose it here first given that it's a BLP article.

Spencer’s speech at the University of Florida

Citations to be provided. Any feedback? Another option is to create a new article, such as Richard Spencer’s speech at the University of Florida; I believe that the event is already sufficiently notable. Or it could be 2017 University of Florida area shooting, with Spencer's speach as background. It's possible that the shooting, given the gravity of the charges, is more notable than the speach. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the work. I haven't read all the articles carefully, but of those that I read, it looks fairly consistent with them. However, I would be cautious with this wording, "When drowned out by the protestors, Spencer suggested that they were engaged in the "heckler's veto", allegedly infringing on his first amendment rights." It gives the impression that a heckler's veto is by definition always an infringement of first amendment rights. I do not believe it is that cut and dry, especially from reading our article on the subject and reading some of the case law. (Our article on the subject is not that well-written FYI.) Also, I do not believe Spencer is an attorney, so his opinion on what constitutes free speech is probably pretty murky, whereas if this came from his attorney it might make more sense. So on that matter, let's stay close to what the source said rather than our own opinions about what a heckler's veto is, unless you are an attorney who knows that area of law. The sentence that follows of the opinion by the Brenchner is clearly Brenchner's opinion and I am guessing he is an attorney. If you give some of the sources you are relying on, that would help a lot, even if you don't assign them to specific sentences.

As for making a new article on just this one speech, I don't think it is sufficiently notable right now or separate from Spencer to justify its own article. The event where someone ran over a bunch of protesters probably is though. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

I am reading, "COMMENT: TINKER'S TIMELESS TEACHING: WHY THE HECKLER'S VETO SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS, 86 Miss. L.J. 409." It looks to me like the Heckler's veto doctrine is that one cannot be censored by the government, because of the heckler's behavior. (See for example: ). That's quite different than hecklers making so much noise you can't be heard. The police did not shut him down from what I read, so I don't understand the claim of an infringement of his rights. (This article agrees with my analysis.) I would like to see the article where he or his attorney makes such a claim. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:17, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Revision: Spencer at UF

Revisions, with sources added.

On October 19, 2017, Spencer spoke at the University of Florida in a planned speech. In addition to Spencer, the speakers included Eli Mosley of Identity Evropa, a white supremacist group from California, and Mike Enoch, a white nationalist blogger. The event reportedly cost an estimated $600,000 in security costs. It drew about 2,500 of protestors who demonstrated on university grounds and heckled Spencer inside the venue.

When drowned out by the protestors, he grew visibly frustrated and said, "you are all engaged in is what’s known as the heckler's veto.” According to Clay Calvert, director of the the Marion B. Brechner First Amendment Project at the University of Florida College of Journalism and Communications, non-violent protesting, booing and suggesting that the speaker leave was not a heckler's veto in law. The speech and the concurrent protests were largely peaceful.

Later that day, three of Spencer's supporters were arrested on felony charges following an alleged discharge of a firearm, directed at protestors leaving the event. The three suspects were residents of Texas who had travelled to Florida to hear Spencer speak. According to the Gainesville Police Department, they had shouted “Hail Hitler” and gave Nazi salutes immediately before the alleged attack. Authorities said that two of the suspects had known links to extremist groups. Two of the suspects had participated in the August 2017 Unite the Right rally, where Spencer had been scheduled to speak.

References

1. "Richard Spencer gets drowned out by boos at UF speech", WFLA
2. "'Go home, racist!' Richard Spencer shouted down at University of Florida speech", USA Today
3. "White supremacist Richard Spencer faces barrage of protest at Florida speech", The Guardian"
4. "Richard Spencer Shouted Down in Florida, Cuts his Speech Short", Newsweek
5. "Behind-scenes logistics at protest let officers control chaos", The Gainesville Sun
6. "3 Men Arrested After Shooting at Richard Spencer's University of Florida Speech", Time
7. "White supremacist supporters of Richard Spencer open fire on counter-protesters", Think Progress

Thanks for the feedback; I added the citations and implemented some changes. It looks like the shooting may be more significant than the speech. There's already pushback from other universities on the requests from Spencer to let him speak, citing "the events in Florida on Thursday". So there will definitely be some fallout from this for Spencer's speaking program. I did add the article where the scholar (Clay Calvert) discusses Spencer's claim on "heckler's veto". K.e.coffman (talk) 03:22, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the revision and the refs.

Further comments:

• Please take out ", and ultimately the taxpayers," which was not in the original article and is an inference. Although the claim is made prominently in this article, it has bothered me since I read it, because significant sums of money in public universities come from rich donors, foundations, trust funds, etc. I think it's true tax payers paid a significant amount--especially for local and state police, but the amount U. of F. spent coming from tax payer money is probably very difficult to quantify.
• I still has some issues with the "heckler's veto" stuff, but I don't have easy fixes at this point. One of the problems is that the WP:RS says that Spencer is complaining about a "heckler's veto," but it is written as an after-thought of saying that the situation does not meet the legal definition of a "heckler's veto." Without the original quote from Spencer or his attorney, it's hard to tell whether he is making a legal claim or not. Because the reporting is weak, it's hard to make this clear in the article. If you see a source that directly quotes Spencer or his attorney so we can be clear whether this is or is not a legal claim on his part, that would help. --David Tornheim (talk) 15:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

"Heckler's veto"

Spencer did mention it while on stage:

• "Fielding a variety of questions from audience members, Spencer said he does not provoke violence and disavowed comparisons to Adolf Hitler. He also accused the crowd of trying to impede his freedom of speech. “What you are all engaged in is what’s known as the heckler’s veto,” he told the crowd. "Richard Spencer UF speech", The News-Press

Here's a related piece: Richard Spencer Has Only Himself to Blame for Hecklers, by Noah Feldman who is a law scholar:

• Hecklers who shouted down the white supremacist Thursday at his University of Florida speech were invited guests, not government crashers. They held tickets distributed by Spencer’s own National Policy Institute. So they didn’t violate Spencer’s free speech rights by drowning him out with chants telling him to go home.

I think this discussion is worth including as the big part of Spencer's argument was free speech. PS -- I removed the reference to "taxpayers", leaving just the overall cost. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks that helps a lot. Rather the discuss, I'm going to just revise your draft. If you don't like just revert. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I made these minor changes to address my concerns about the heckler's veto: . By quoting him directly, the ambiguity about whether he was making a legal claim or not is more evident. The response by the attorney is clarified to refer only to the legal form of heckler's veto.

Otherwise, I did not see any other issues, except that this could be simplified:

"2,500...protestors who demonstrated...and heckled Spencer....Unable to deliver his prepared remarks, Spencer grew visibly frustrated ....heckler's veto. When drowned out by the protestors...non-violent protest, booing and suggesting that the speaker leave..."

I find quite a bit of redundancy about the heckling/being drowned out/not able to talk/protesting/etc. Deleting "Unable to deliver his prepared remarks," for example, shouldn't cost anything, since it is implied by "drowned out." Hence this change. There are probably some other ways of cutting down the word count. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: Can you add a source for the direct quote? Not seeing it in any of the ones in the article around that section. I tried to look at the News-Press source above but am getting a 503 at the moment. I mostly ask because the grammar is weird. Right now the sentence reads When drowned out by the protestors, he grew visibly frustrated and said, "you are all engaged in is what’s known as the heckler's veto.”. It seems like either "is" was added by mistake, or the sentence needs to be preceded by "what". GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I added the Press-News' citation; I'm not getting an error message. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:43, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah yeah, it's working for me now too. I tried to add an archived version in case it's on a flaky server, but got a "Sorry. This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine." error. Weird. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare:, @K.e.coffman: Thanks for the catch and attempt to fix the link. Sadly, it was in the original. .

Question 1: How about simplifying it to:

(a) "you are all engaged in... heckler’s veto."

(b) "you are all engaged in...the heckler’s veto."

or follow more standard quotation rules:

(c) put "..." where the "is" was

(d) leave the extra "is" in and put . I actually oppose this unless we can verify Spencer actually said it that way, which I doubt. I think it was probably a mistake in the article that we do not need to call attention

or:

(e) leave it as K.e.coffman has it: removing the spurious "is"

I was actually planning on making the change to (a) or (b) last night before hearing about this glaring grammatical error, but I wanted to make sure the quote stuck first. I see that K.e.coffman ended did remove the "is", but also ended up restoring some of my simplifications, so now I'm not sure if (a) or (b) fits better not, depending on how we answer Q2 below.

Question 2: GorillaWarfare (and anyone else reading this), what is you opinion on which is better: simplified language or restoration to more wordy version?

--David Tornheim (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

SPLC and ADL

These groups have been proven to be highly inaccurate and AWFUL sources. There’s plenty of info out there about Spencer without using those two messes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.105.160 (talk) 03:42, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure you're an unbiased authority. They have not been "proven" anything of the sort as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned. They are both generally considered reliable for the topic of hate-movements and extremism in the U.S., which both apply to Spencer. This has already been discussed repeatedly, in excruciating detail, at WP:RSN and elsewhere. Grayfell (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Grayfell. Thanks again. Please see my comment above about perennial objections and how we might treat them with hardlinks to past discussions. --David Tornheim (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

William Regnery II - the man who spent years funding the racist right

See this article. Perhaps he should be mentioned here. He's the guy who funded the National Policy Institute. One of the authors of the report is Aram Roston Other sources (courtesy User:Aquillion)

• Mother Jones article about him personally.
• Daily Dot article about him personally.
• Relevant mentions and quotes in Rolling Stone, The Guardian, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and Newsweek.

Looks to me as though we could have a section on him and his role in funding. Doug Weller talk 18:33, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose At Misplaced Pages's National Policy Institute page, William Regnery II is mentioned only twice—both times identifying him as founder but saying nothing more. Blink and you'll miss him. To accord him an entire section here in our Richard B. Spencer BLP would violate WP:UNDUE. KalHolmann (talk) 18:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. It does look like those sources contain info that could be used to expand the National Policy Institute article a bit. But not here. Rockypedia (talk) 19:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

• I don't think an entire section would necessarily be appropriate (we don't have enough to fill a section anyway.) But I think a sentence or two could be worthwhile given that we have multiple sources identifying him as crucial to Spencer's rise to prominence. --Aquillion (talk) 05:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Ok, if not a section then he certainly should be mentioned. He's such a shadowy figure his article was a redirect until a few weeks ago. Doug Weller talk 07:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

^I agree. I saw his name come up when I was reading about Spencer--probably in one or more of the articles you mention. Before I saw this post, if you had asked me, "Who is funding Spencer?" I would have said, William Regnery II. Without more evidence to the contrary, I still believe that to be the case. So yes, it definitely belongs in the article. --David Tornheim (talk) 19:25, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

He grew up in Preston Hollow, Dallas, so he's a member of the 1%. But yes, he was hired by Regnery to run the think tank. There should be multiple RS stating that fact?Zigzig20s (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

^I did think that of him or his parents, or that he had some huge trust fund, but now those other article left me thinking it was Regnery doing the heavy financial lifting. I agree it would be better if we could verify and support with more WP:RS. However, I think with the WP:RS presented so far that Regenery deserves a mention in this article right now for his role in funding--whatever percent it actually is. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Like all think tanks, NPI fundraises.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

How are you supposed to reach a consensus?

Disambiguation

Contrary to what the template says, Richard Spencer doesn't redirect to Richard B. Spencer. Should we move this page to Richard Spencer (white supremacist)? Nobody calls him Richard B. Spencer. Smooth alligator (talk) 05:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Makes sense, I would have no problem with that. Rockypedia (talk) 08:43, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

If the note at the top is wrong, then fix it. Yes, reliable sources label him as such, but I'm not sure if "Name (white supremacist)" is a proper thing to use to separate an article name from another, that seems to be going a little too far. ValarianB (talk) 12:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Why? It's what he's notable for. It works for Don Black (white supremacist), Paul Fromm (white supremacist), and David Lane (white supremacist), and maybe more, I haven't gone past the first page in searching. It's certainly not a slur, as sources such as the NYT use it routinely to describe those are primarily known for advocating white supremacy. What's the issue in making the name of the article consistent with the subject's description in the first sentence? Rockypedia (talk) 13:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree that that is what he is notable for, I'm not making any sort of pro-supremacist argument here, but I don't think it should be a first choice. The middle initial should be sufficient to disambiguate by. ValarianB (talk) 17:28, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I get that that's your opinion, but that's just not rooted in any policy. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the title should be Richard Spencer, not Richard B. Spencer. And since there's other Richard Spencers, the parenthetical after the name is appropriate. Your unease with the term "white supremacist" is not a barrier; there's been massive discussion about that and the overwhelming consensus was that it's what he's notable for, and you seem to agree with that. If it's good enough for the first sentence, it's good enough for the title. Rockypedia (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

All rules have exceptions, and editors seems to be fond of WP:IAR when it can be reasonably justified. In looking through the requested move archives, it seems there was once quite a tussle over Sarah Jane Brown, as most did not want to define her as a wife, even if it arguably all that she is notable for. ValarianB (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

• Support. I have been in favor of this for a long time. Maybe a year ago there was a discussion about this that did not lead to a consensus. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. I believe we have discussed this before. It should be in the talkpage archive. Lots of RS call him a "white nationalist" and lots of IP addresses keep reminding us of this. Besides, he may change his mind at one point. "Richard B. Spencer" is the most NPOV way to name this article.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

See my response to ValarianB above; the same argument applies. In addition, if he "changes his mind" at some point (seems highly unlikely), we can always move the article again. Rockypedia (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Give it up. It's going to create too much drama. We should be focusing on adding more referenced content. This is a distraction.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't find "give it up" a convincing argument for keeping the title of the article the same. Rockypedia (talk) 19:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Sure. Anyway, I've given you enough reasons for keeping it as it is (already discussed, been stable for a while, avoids drama, saves us time, remains consistent no matter what Spencer's views might become one day). Thank you!Zigzig20s (talk) 19:38, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, as the subject has a verifiable middle initial that can be used to disambiguate. Barring that, I'd find Richard Spencer (born 1978) as a reasonable alternative format that appears to be used in some biographical articles. Or perhaps Richard Spencer (activist). A living person, as distasteful as much of the world may find him and his views, should not be defined by one ideological viewpoint to the point that it is a part of his article's title. ValarianB (talk) 19:37, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2017

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change from "American White supremacist" to "American White nationalist". A White Nationalist wants a nation dominated by his race of people, their laws and culture. It is not the traditional definition of a White Supremacist. A White Supremacist thinks they are superior in every way than people of color, especially Blacks, and would choose to lord it over them in every way within their own country. I suspect there are very few true White Supremacists still around, and Richard Spencer does not appear to me to fit that mold at all. Using this term as you have is outdated, sloppy, and very broad-brushed IMO. Thanks you for the opportunity to express my suggested change here in editing. 606jms (talk) 00:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. SparklingPessimist 00:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

A distinction without a difference, clearly intended to lend a veneer of respectability. Highly objectionable. MarkBernstein (talk) 00:31, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

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