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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Anythingyouwant
Since Sandstein has asked that I handle this, and there does seem to be agreement that this was not BLP exempt and that Anythingyouwant knew what they were doing, I'll go ahead and resolve this: Anythingyouwant is placed on 0RR for 1 month on Roy Moore and any topic related to the United States Senate special election in Alabama, 2017, broadly construed. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Anythingyouwant
I'm not sure if this is a 1RR violation, but it is obviously a violation of the "consensus required" provision which is in effect on the page and which it seems admins have decided needs enforcing. The edit was obviously challenged by reversion. The claim that this was a BLP issue is spurious. See also the edit summaries by User:MrX and User:MelanieN . See also discussion on talk page. In particular see comments by MrX, MelanieN and User:Artw in that discussion. Also this comment claims the text says something it doesn't actually say. Also . Also see this comment which brings up WP:TRUTH and WP:GREATWRONGS. Volunteer Marek 04:02, 26 November 2017 (UTC) When an editor (me) does what two other editors request - I did not request for you to make that edit and afaict, neither did MrX. I think that was pretty clear from both our comments. Volunteer Marek 09:36, 26 November 2017 (UTC) @GoldenRing:: " VM says this is "spurious" but other editors here agree with Anythingyouwant" - no, they don't. What page are you reading??? Your comment was made at 16:30. At the time you wrote this FOUR editors (in addition to myself), including TWO administrators said that this clearly is NOT a BLP violation. Those would be Specifico, MelanieN and MrX. TWO editors, Atsme and DHeyward said it was a BLP violation. Two or three didn't address the BLP issue. Since you made your comment TWO additional editors have said it wasn't a BLP violation. If you're gonna participate at WP:AE in an administrative capacity can you please at least read the statements before "summarizing" them? Volunteer Marek 18:50, 26 November 2017 (UTC) As to the question of whether it's a BLP violation - it's not. The info is well sourced. The text is straight from the source. Anythingyouwant is pretending on the talk page that the text is something other than what it really is as a pretext for removing it. This is not a BLP vio, this is WP:GAMEing, like User:MrX points out. Just like Anythingyouwant falsely claiming that either I or MrX "requested" he make the edit is WP:GAMEing. Volunteer Marek 18:52, 26 November 2017 (UTC) And this comment " The second is that MrX reverted the removal of material that was clearly challenged on good-faith BLP grounds" - is completely ass backwards. Anythingyouwant is edit warring, repeatedly inserting challenged content in violation of the discretionary sanction which just recently YOU insisted MUST be enforced, yet here for some reason you want to... sanction the editor making the challenge rather than the one violating DS. What gives? Volunteer Marek 18:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC) either @Anythingyouwant: - regarding this claim (quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be..."), can you point out any of these "nasty adjectives" which are being "used to describe" you, "at this page"? Cuz I just read the whole thing again and I don't see a single adjective being used to describe you, nasty or otherwise (I skipped Atsme and DHayward's statements for obvious reasons). Volunteer Marek 23:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC) @Anythingyouwant: - " I'd rather not get bogged down making such a list for you." - in other words, nobody called you any adjectives, nasty or otherwise, and you just made that up. Here, I'll make this list for you: {empty set}. Volunteer Marek 06:42, 27 November 2017 (UTC) @Anythingyouwant: - yes, the diff does contain the adjective "nasty" but it is not being used to describe you, but rather to describe something else. You claimed, quote: "You might also take a look at the adjectives used to describe me at this page, and personally I prefer to be called lots of nasty adjectives than to be...". This isn't difficult. Why do you insist on completely misrepresenting something which is easy to check? This is very similar to your insistence on the false claim that either I or MrX "requested" you make the edit. Volunteer Marek 06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC) @Vanamonde93: That first edit is indeed a revert, of this edit. Anythingyouwant just waited a few days to sneak that revert in. Don't let him bamboozle you. Closely verify every claim he makes. Volunteer Marek 06:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC) While you're at it you might want to look at this statement by Anythingyouwant right here at WP:AE for another example of WP:WEASELLY misrepresentation of other editors and sources: " I am glad that MrX has finally today agreed that this BLP lead ought to mention Moore has denied dating underage females.. So my statement above about being dishonest is happily no longer applicable". Note how he tries to pretend that it was another user who was at fault, not him, and acts as if he's graciously "forgiving" the other user their error. Which is baloney. Keep in mind that this is after Anythingyouwant was criticized below by an administrator for falsely accusing MrX of dishonesty - so he comes back and tries to make it seem like the other person's fault. @MrX:, have you "finally" agreed to anything? Was there actually disagreement on this in the first place or was the dispute over something else (inserting the "age of consent" stuff in there)? This is actually a straight up false misrepresentation of MrX's position, and a fairly obnoxious way to rewrite the nature of the dispute in a "I'm glad you finally stopped beating your wife" kind of way. Honestly, sketchy tactics like these merit a sanction all on their own. Volunteer Marek 07:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC) @GoldenRing: - Re . I didn't misread anything. Perhaps you miswrote. Your comment about "others disagree" was clearly meant to insinuate, falsely, that the majority of opinion was against me, when actually the opposite was the case. If you wanted to say "some editors disagreed, others agreed" then that's what you should have written. And frankly, you can always count on ideological supporters - on both sides - to show up and back the editor who matches with their POV. That's why more experienced AE admins usually ignore "the peanut gallery". The difference here is that even editors who can't be accused of being on one side or the other (MelanieN, EvergreenFir, Vanamonde - two admins in there) disagreed with you and Anythingyouwant. Anythingyouwant DID NOT get support or agreement from anyone who's political views are not immediately obvious. And you're trying to twist the situation up on its head again: "the principle that edits done to address good-faith BLP objections shouldn't be reverted without consensus is a good one". Again, it was Anythingyouwant who was violating the DS sanction, not the person who challenged their edits. Why do you keep trying to make this out to be something it's not? Just a few days ago you were adamant that the "consensus required" provision needs to be enforced. Yet here you're flippin' 180 degrees. Volunteer Marek 09:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC) @Sandstein: added dates, remedy, edt. Volunteer Marek 14:51, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning AnythingyouwantStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AnythingyouwantI was indeed banned from post-1932 politics; it was for less than two weeks, from 27 October 2016 to 9 November 2016. The present article is controversial, and my effort here was simply to conform it to reliable sources like any article should be. There is no allegation of a 1RR violation here, and I didn't violate 1RR. The issue here is whether I reinstated an edit that was challenged by User:MrX. I did not. My edit #1, at 22:20 on 25 November 2017 (with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:
The edit summary of User:MrX at 22:59 on 25 November 2017 said, “The source does not say that, and this would be too much detail for the lead anyway.” To address his primary objection, I more closely tracked the language of the source (which is quoted in the footnote), so there would be no way anyone could dispute that I was adhering closely to the source. So, my edit #2 at 01:03 on 26 November 2017(with my added language in bold) said that the BLP subject:
I did not reinstate any edit of mine, but rather the second edit of mine used not a single word that my first edit used, and the second edit much more closely tracked the source using verbatim language ("underage") from the source, to meet MrX's previous objection that "the source does not say that", as well as to meet User:Volunteer Marek's apparent preference for explicitly saying "underage". See VM's edit at 00:56, 26 November 2017. When an editor (me) does what two other editors request, it kind of seems like a game of gotcha for one of them to file a complaint about it. Incidentally, my second edit used 20% fewer words (four instead of five), given that MrX had said the first edit was too long. I will add a paragraph below in reply to Melanie. If this thing turns into a typical Misplaced Pages pile-on, so be it, but I am not inclined to participate much more. I feel that the complaint is frivolous, and shouldn't be used as a back door for all kinds of separate old complaints about separate old matters. Anyway, feel free to visit my user talk to request or advise further participation or response from me. Thanks. Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICOAt the time of Anythingyouwant's previous short-term TBAN from American Politics (specified to end after the election) I was skeptical that the behavior would get any better after the election. Sure enough it has not. If anything it's gotten worse. As I said at the time we discussed that 2016 complaint, this behavior appears to be an extension of this editor's disruptive behavior relating to Abortion, for which Arbcom imposed a permanent TBAN. As is widely reported, there are many diehard supporters of the Trump Administration and the Republican congressional majority who are motivated largely or entirely by the expectation that Trump and the Republican senate will appoint judges and pursue policies to promote "pro-life" policies and judicial rulings. Anythingyouwant is banned from pages having to do with "Abortion, broadly construed" and given Anythingyouwant's demonstrably extreme and egregious POV editing in that topic, I think that this should have been interpreted to include any aspect of American Politics that relates to POV-pushing that might favor limiting womens' health care. This would include anything related to the Trump Admininstration, the Congress, the Judiciary, or US elections. Also note that, per ARBAP2, repeated violations are to be met with escalating remedies. A mere warning here would mean the escalator is going down. SPECIFICO talk 04:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Updated, clarified. 15:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Anythingyouwant has a long history of disruption, POV-pushing, and personal attacks at American Politics articles. I also find the BLP thing really disingenuous, because one of Anythingyouwant's most egregious battles this year was to insist on a nasty political-POV BLP smear at Murder of Seth Rich long after this narrative was debunked and demonstrated to be fake news promoted by various political operatives and Fox News. Also long after the victim's family had pleaded with the promoters of these predatory conspiracy theories to cease and desist. See and Anything's appeal, in which the Admin affirms Anything's bad behavior, is full of promises to behave better. Not much sign of that. There are more recent examples, but not in such a compact, easily presented form. SPECIFICO talk 18:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC) The reason for the Arbcom cases, two of them, and the DS regime, is that these politics articles are full of difficult issues that require particularly careful and extensive collaboration among the editors. When POV editors push these things to or beyond the limit, it's very disheartening to see Admins at AE bending over backwards to find reasons not to enforce DS. Meanwhile the topic area is bleeding good editors, and the ones who are left there are largely self-selected warriors or political activists or editors who deny WP's core sourcing policy to reflect the weight of mainstream sources. SPECIFICO talk 00:03, 27 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by involved MelanieNRegarding these edits, I chided Anythingyouwant in two places - the article talk page and my own talk page - for unilaterally inserting new language into a disputed section of the article without proposing it first at the talk page, where that very issue is under active discussion. I considered this to be against Misplaced Pages's tradition of consensus. I reverted his addition and told him to get agreement on the talk page first. I did not consider this action of his to be a technical AE violation, but I am WP:INVOLVED at that article so this should not be regarded as administrator opinion. I note that he displayed here two longstanding habits of his: claiming that his edits are necessary to correct "blatant BLP violations", and going to the other person's user talk page to continue the argument privately. --MelanieN (talk) 04:40, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by AtsmeI reviewed the edits, and Anything's first edit was an add-on not a revert. He probably should've reverted it from the lede, and moved it into the body after rewriting it to make it compliant with BLP and NPOV. I'm dismayed and somewhat surprised that Volunteer Marek and SPECIFICO are even here after recently being warned in another AE case "to edit collegially and assume good faith." It doesn't appear either have AGF in this situation. The problem I see at the article is a rather serious BLP coatrack issue which justifies what Anything attempted to do. Allegations involving such a serious matter certainly do not belong in the lede of a BLP, and cannot be viewed as anything but BLP coatrack and POV considering the political aspects and upcoming elections. WP:LABEL states that value laden labels may, and in this case did express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. The 1st cited source doesn't fully support what was written in the article, and in fact, it appears WP:SYNTH was used because 3 different sources were used and statements cherrypicked to create the allegation that is written in the lede. That is noncompliance with NPOV; therefore, it is also a violation of BLP - you cannot separate the two because BLP requires strict adherence to NPOV. We're also dealing with WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTNEWS and analytical speculation by journalists. WP:BLP policy requires that we take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Misplaced Pages page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and strict adherence to Misplaced Pages's three core content policies WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:OR, all of which are inseparable from BLP policy; therefore, in instances when material is challenged as noncompliant as what Anything did here, it was the right thing to do. 05:34, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by DHeywardThis is a specious filing. This edit , offered as a "violation" is arguably a necessary edit to avoid the implication of criminal activity. Having a relationship with a nineteen-year-old is legally much different than having a relationship with a fifteen-year-old. The edit clearly clarified that "teen" isn't the boundary for consent. Opposing that edit should be a BLP violation and the editor reverting that edit should be sanctioned for a BLP violation. That edit was not a politically motivated or biased edit. The original text was Vanamonde your statement is confusing. Are you making a nuanced distinction between "sexual assault" and "rape" of underage girls? Under what context would you make that distinction and how does it not have BLP implications? I am not aware of the distinctions you and your peers seem to be making. There are distinctions regarding consent however. A teenage girl cannot consent to sexual contact and all such contact is sexual assault. A teenage woman can consent to sexual contact and consensual contact is not sexual assault. Isn't "teenager" too vague a term to use given that it broadly encompasses acts that can interpreted as statutorily illegal if the impression is that "teenager" is being used to describe both women and girls? --DHeyward (talk) 07:29, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Drmies, you start of as if you at least viscerally understand the problem, but then fall short. From our article, of the 4 woman mentioned, how many allege improper or illegal sexual contact while dating? How many allege sexual contact while dating? (hint: WaPo
Statement by uninvolved EvergreenFirSaw this in my watchlist and thought I'd comment while trying to fall asleep. This appears to be a 1RR violation to me. Anythinguyouwant suggests that because the material was not restored verbatim it does not constitute restoration/reversion. However, from WP:EW, Unless someone can demonstrate this is a persistent problem (an incident a year ago doesn't make this persistent but does show this an issue in this topic), I'm inclined to think a formal warning would be best. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Dervorguilla@Vanamonde93: Yes, it may be true that Statement by KingsindianI have no comment on the complaint, but a comment about TonyBallioni's statement that the "consensus required" provision is a tool to enforce WP:ONUS and WP:BLP, a claim which does not make any sense. WP:ONUS is a much older and well-established policy and is applicable site-wide. One does not need any further rules to "enforce" it. And most areas on Misplaced Pages seem to work fine without this extra rule. The main problem with the "consensus required" provision is that most of the time on Misplaced Pages, consensus is, by explicit policy, silent and implicit, and is not always a bright line. For instance, someone WP:BOLDly adds content to the page, someone else objects, the first person rephrases, and so on. Sometimes this is hashed out on the talk page and someone else tries a phrasing which is acceptable to all. This is normal and desirable. The effect of this provision will be more of these kinds of complaints, nothing more. And, from my experience in ARBPIA, when one "side" gets sanctioned, there will be retaliatory complaints from the "other side". The version of 1RR used in ARBPIA is a clear, bright line: if an edit is reverted, the editor shouldn't reinstate the material within 24 hours. That is all that is required. The extra bureaucracy is needless and harmful. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MrXOn the talk page, I said that Anythingyouwant has repeatedly inserted the age of consent material (into the lead) without obtaining consensus. I want to back that up with evidence: This should clear up any doubt that his first edit yesterday was a reversion, of this edit by Nick845 made three days earlier. Obviously, the last four of these are also reinstating challenged edits without obtaining firm consensus on the talk page. A couple of editors seem intent on whitewashing the allegations against Moore. I'm particularly unimpressed with DHeyward's first ever edit to the article here.- MrX 14:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MarkBernsteinThe proposition that the invocation of BLP was is “in good faith” is preposterous and insupportable. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishesFirst of all, there were several obvious violations of the "consensus required" restriction. One of them was demonstrated in diffs initially brought by VM. Another one was this edit by A. where he reinserted yet another content challenged through reversion here . This is not related to BLP, and this is something A. agreed about .
Second, I think admins should determine if the edits by A. were actually fixing any obvious BLP violation. I think the content which existed prior to the edits by A. was already well sourced and discussed numerous times by other contributors. That was only a slight rewording by A. If it was not fixing an obvious BLP violation by A., then it only makes things worse. Claiming non-existent BLP violation to POV-push is a common "strategy" that should not be endorsed by admins. As before, my suggestion would be to never use this complex editing restriction and remove it from all pages. However, if admins want to be consistent, there is probably no any other logical approach, but to enforce the editing restriction. My very best wishes (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by NeutralityI have edited the Moore pages in the past, but am not part of the specific dispute at issue. Leaving aside the revert issue: I want to express alarm at Anythingyouwant's remarks about MrX ("You are deliberately attempting to make our lead be dishonest."). I find this remark untrue, uncivil, and reflective of a battleground approach to editing that is unproductive. Neutrality 22:52, 26 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by power~enwikiDue to the extremely contentious nature of this topic and the many editors/disputes involved, I regretfully suggest that full-protection may be necessary at Roy Moore (and possibly other closely-related topics) until after the election. It's probably less time consuming overall than adjudicating this mess. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:48, 27 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Anythingyouwant
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Favonian
Fails to state a case for arbitration enforcement. GoldenRing (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Favonian
I received an insulting email. I wanted to check my account for unblock. I think they got me wrong with someone. But my User-Agent is different from that person. I sent my request from here. otrs kept silent, And they did not give me a ticket.--Me choose (talk) 14:09, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning USERNAMEStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by USERNAMEStatement by (username)Result concerning USERNAME
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NadirAli
Closing with no action. NadirAli is warned to focus on content, not nationality. ~ Rob13 01:30, 30 November 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning NadirAli
NadirAli is an old hand of the ARBIPA sanctions. After multiple blocks and topic bans, the ARBCOM has very cautiously lifted his topic ban in December 2015. Unfortunately, NadirAli's conduct was rarely above board since then, with frequent edit-warring and POV-pushing reported. This ANI complaint and my input there represented the situation as of mid-summer 2017. Things have changed quite dramatically since then. In contrast to mindless POV pushing and incoherent talk page argumentation that used to be his hallmark, NadirAli has taken to editing sophisticated content on difficult topics like Kashmir conflict and 1971 Bangladesh Genocide (full list below) and also engage in sophisticated discussion with high-sounding words in talk page discussions. But all this apparent quality seems fake because he also drops back to his traditional low-quality debates where he speaks in his own voice, with curious phrases like
Compare that to the language like:
There is a strong indication that the words of different individuals are being presented to us under the umbrella of one user account. An analysis reveals a strong correlation with the interests of Towns Hill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was topic-banned from India-Pakistan conflicts on 15 May 2016 and from all ARBIPA pages by this board on 18 January 2017. Subsequently, he created several socks such as Losthistory9, Problematics, Sicilianbro2, ChakDeHind, etc. All these accounts have been blocked and are now tagged as socks of Faizan (who was determined to be the master account). After these blocks, there is evidence that Towns Hill has taken to getting other editors to do proxy edits for him. I have argued here that he used Owais Khursheed to install Rape in Kashmir conflict. Several IPs edit-warred at Standstill agreement (India) and Indian annexation of Hyderabad, and launched RfCs, with possible guidance from Towns Hill. One of the IPs, 47.31.9.34, cut-and-pasted bits of email messages (now revdeled), which indicated proxy editing. NadirAli has now picked up many of the topics that Towns Hill used to be active in, and is doing the kind of edits that Towns Hill would have done, using the kind of sources Towns Hill would have used, and arguing like Towns Hill. This makes me believe that NadirAli is doing proxy editing for Towns Hill.
To make sure that I wasn't totally wrong about all this, I went through all his edits over the last 12 months that added 400 bytes or more. There were 112 such edits. Other than the Towns Hill interests listed below, only five of those edits cited (possibly) scholarly sources: , , , . This is the sum total of NadirAli's scholarly contribution to Misplaced Pages in a whole year. Yet we are expected to believe that he is able to add 15,000 bytes of scholarly content in an hour at Kashmir conflict. He is brow-beating us. I am requesting input from the admins familiar with the Towns Hill case: EdJohnston, Bishonen, Vanamonde93, Bbb23, RegentsPark
Discussion concerning NadirAliStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by NadirAliStatement by Black KiteAs soon as I got to the first bullet point I thought "really?" To wit, "Here, for example, he is pushing for "tertiary sources like Schofield", referring to Victoria Schofield, who is a writer without any academic credentials". According to her article, Schofield has a Masters in Modern History from Oxford University. You don't get much more credentialed than that. I didn't bother reading past that point. Black Kite (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Capitals00The significant issue is that I had filed an ARE months ago and NadirAli was warned not to edit war, but he has continued. First removing content without summary or explanation, then edit warring. NadirAli also attempted to canvass during this dispute. Edit warring on Kashmir conflict has been detailed as well. Reverting to his version without getting consensus. 3 editors agreed to remove NadirAli's long POV edits, yet he reverted to his preferred version. Capitals00 (talk) 11:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC) NadirAli makes his claims without giving diffs. Starting with his claim that last ARE only concerned an incident where he was "edit warring against Faizan" but that's deceptive of NadirAli because he was engaged in multiple edit wars, and also a page move war, the same day when ARE was filed. Misrepresenting me here as "who's been on Misplaced Pages hardly two years" despite I am editing since December 2012, over 5 years now. Also nonsensical is his claim about an unknown IP because no IP has canvassed me against NadirAli. @Sandstein and Dennis Brown: In addition to his evident deception, long term edit warring which could be seen on Hindustan, Kashmir conflict, while knowing that he has no consensus as per the diffs I provided, this new comment by NadirAli shows that a topic ban on his account is warranted. It shows his long term WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that already resulted in siteban from Misplaced Pages before. Capitals00 (talk) 05:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by Mar4dIMO, this report seems to be in bad faith. I just don't see any substance. It appears to be a half-baked attempt to grind an axe against NadirAli, whom Kautilya3 is involved in a major content "war" with at Kashmir conflict. Half of that dispute mainly revolves around the correct use and interpretation of sources, which I personally observed. And to add to the frustration I presume, Kautilya3's unsuccessful attempts to get an WP:UNDUE source cited into the article (see Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_58#Scholarly_article_labelled_FRINGE), which as correctly pointed out and verified by uninvolved editors, was sourced to a barely-cited scholar. Yet I am still seeing Kautilya3 and his friends claiming the source is not undue, exactly after what came about from the fringe noticeboard. I'm sorry to say, but these users are orchestrating a blatant WP:POV campaign and wreaking havoc across Misplaced Pages articles - and it's only a matter of time before someone called their bluff. Unfortunately, this time it's NadirAli who's been caught in the crossfire. I certainly cannot draw any connection solely on the basis of editing Kashmir and Bangladesh articles; because both these are highly edited topics amongst WikiProject Pakistan editors, have always been and always will be. Any contributions across these contentious areas that aim to balance the POVs are inevitable - it's a matter of fact and there's just no other way about it. And I am not buying the nonsensical argument that a user who's been editing since 2006 would have no idea about identifying and quoting his sources. After all, Kautilya3 has only been an editor for 3 years. And I am surprised at the frequency with which these arbitrations are filed back and forth, nearly every time by Kautilya3 against some new foe that he's picked up. Each time with new diversionary tactics, or "evidence" conjured out of thin air purporting to link to a grand conspiracy, to the point that it now seems too good to be true. What it tells me instead is a desperate attempt to get rid of any opposing editor, and go to any lengths possible, whilst constantly disregarding WP:CON and WP:GAMING the editing process repetitively. I would strongly argue for WP:BOOMERANG with such reports. Mar4d (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Statement by NadirAli (response)I was just made aware of this issue. I would have to say first, that Kautilya's allegations regarding Hindustan are ridiculous. He has persistently supported removing of supporting sources with unreliable content and original research and I wasn't alone in this concern while accusing me of edit warring when I restored it. I'll respond to some of the other allegations shortly.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MPS1992@Black Kite: the comment "a writer without any academic credentials" is indeed incorrect and a BLP violation if the person concerned has a Master's degree from Oxford. However, "You don't get much more credentialed than that" is also incorrect: this is normally just an undergraduate degree. MPS1992 (talk) 22:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC) Result concerning NadirAli
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Kingsindian
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Kingsindian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- Template for post 1932 American politics. I am proposing an amendment.
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- The Wordsmith (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Diff of notification.
Statement by Kingsindian
I am here seeking a relatively narrow amendment.
- Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.
- Rescinded. The provision can be applied for individual pages at admin discretion, but is not part of the template.
- Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period).
- Replaced by: Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours. The normal exemptions apply. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
The situation is as follows:
In May 2016, Coffee created a template (linked above) which is used on more than 100 pages dealing with American politics. The template includes a "consensus required" provision: challenged material should not be restored unless it has consensus.
- The template has been used in the past as a "default" template for American politics topics. For instance, Ks0stm says here:
FWIW, I only placed the article under 1RR/consensus required because that was what came packaged in 2016 US Election AE ; it wasn't so much an explicit decision to make it consensus required.
- Some admins do indeed explicitly want to enforce the "consensus required" provision. See the AE request here, and the comment by TonyBallioni.
- The value of the provision is, let's say, contested. I can give my own view here, to make it clear where I'm coming from: it's a very bad idea.
I propose that the template to be used as the "default" for post-1932 American elections contain the amendment I proposed. The amendment is modeled on the solution used in ARBPIA, and takes care of a very common justification for the "consensus required" provision (see TonyBallioni's comment linked above, for instance). This is a much more lightweight, well-tested and clearer sanction. To be clear: individual pages may still have the "consensus required" provision placed on them. In this way, collateral damage from what I consider a bad provision will be minimized. If ArbCom wishes to make an explicit statement either way (either rescinding the consensus required provision altogether, or to affirm it to be the "default"), they can also do so.
See also this AE request, in which the solution I propose comes pretty close to being accepted, but somehow it never got closed one way or another.
The above text is self-sufficient. In the following, I make a case for the badness of the "consensus required" provision. People can skip it if they want. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:39, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
"Consensus required" is bad (optional) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
My argument hinges on two points. First, consensus on Misplaced Pages is mostly silent and implicit; indeed this is explicitly enshrined in policy. Second, any bureaucratic provision must prove its worth if it is to be imposed. I will now expand on each of the points.
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- TonyBallioni: Your suggestion seems workable (though see my comments below). It might be a good idea to look over all the pages (there are about 120 or so) to see who added the template -- if it's by Coffee or TonyBallioni, the "consensus required" provision can be kept. For instance, on Talk:Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States and Talk:Donna Brazile, the template seems to have been just added because it is the "default" template, and not because the page required special measures. I agree with NeilN that the template should be substituted, and not transcluded.
In general, my view is that the circumstances in May 2016 were very different from the circumstances now, so it would make sense to add the "consensus required" provision reactively, rather than proactively; that is: start with a minimum set and add pages to it as disruption or edit-warring occurs. These templates are "sticky": it's easy to slap it on, but hard to get rid of it. But I leave such considerations to the admins here; after all, they are the ones who have to enforce it. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 18:52, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I am rather puzzled by various comments in the admin section. In particular, I am not sure what the extent of the disagreement is: it does not seem to me that the solution proposed by GoldenRing or TonyBallioni is all that different from the one proposed by Sandstein. The proposal I made explicitly differentiates between pages where the template was used as the "default" (I gave three examples already), and ones where the admins explicitly wanted the restriction there because they felt it necessary. The latter category, I aver, is likely to be a small(er) set. All I am asking for is to change the default template; admins are free to use their judgement to impose this restriction on individual pages. Kingsindian ♝ ♚
Statement by The Wordsmith
This is in uncharted territory, given that I don't admin in Election 2016/Trump/far-right related articles and that one admin acting as a steward for another is also with little precedent. However, my own opinion, and one that I believe would accurately reflect Coffee's opinion, is that this Page-level sanction was never intended to be the default for APDS or one that could be accidentally applied. I do support vacating the provision from articles where it appears to have been accidentally applied, and forking the template so that the provision is an option, but the default template does not list it. I do not support vacating the CR sanction from pages where it has been deliberately applied, as that would be effectively overturning an Arbitration Enforcement action without a specific consensus about that particular sanction. The Wordsmith 14:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
This is a good proposal for any articles that are currently under, or will be placed under, editing restrictions requiring consensus for reinstating new material. It would prevent some of the usual WP:GAMING that allows users with throwaway accounts to gain undue advantage in content disputes.
I generally agree with Sandstein's comments, and add that the DS talk page templates and especially the in-your-face edit notices are very important for notifying editors that articles are subject to DS restrictions. Admins can use Template:Ds/editnotice and add language specific to a situation, rather than simply using the Coffee version without modification. - MrX 11:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Pinging admins who have to placed American Politics articles under DS editing restrictions: Coffee, Doug Weller, BU Rob13, Ks0stm, Laser brain, DeltaQuad, Bishonen, and TonyBallioni.- MrX 11:54, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Also: NeilN, Darkwind, and Seraphimblade.- MrX 12:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Volunteer Marek
@TonyBallioni: " I strongly object to their removal from the Roy Moore article " - Tony, my understanding is that you can still have that sanction on the article, you just have to add it separately rather than as "bundled" with the other sanctions (1RR etc). As Kingsindian says above: "The provision can be applied for individual pages at admin discretion, but is not part of the template." This isn't a proposal to get rid of the sanction. It's (very much) more limited than that. Volunteer Marek 15:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tony - it's not a bad suggestion, it's just that Coffee sorta spammed that template to lots of articles and it was never clear if he really meant to add that restriction or was just slapping on the template. Also Sandstein is right - a GENERIC restriction template used to impose DISCRETIONARY sanctions is sort of an oxymoron. At the very least it violates the spirit and intent of how DS is suppose to work. Volunteer Marek 16:08, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Man, this is like observing "institutional inertia" inert itself. "We shouldn't change it because then we'd have to change it". Volunteer Marek 16:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph
Can there be clarification on if the templates are authorized by an Arbcom ruling or they are just placed there because an admin wants it? If it's the former, then shouldn't this be a discussion for Arbcom, via an amendment process? I filed an amendment request a while back, they voted on it, and I changed the template to match the new ruling from Arbcom. If the templates are not backed by an Arbcom ruling, then that should be spelled out in the template. Right now the template points to Arbcom ruling to give them enforcement ability so the templates should match ruling of Arbcom and Arbcom is where and DS rules should go for change, not AE which is an executive action, not legislative. Sir Joseph 17:01, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
I agree with Sandstein, Bishonen and Dennis Brown. According to template, All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This brings a number of difficult questions, even for experienced contributors. Was this particular edit a "revert"? Should someone count only an "exact" revert to a recent previous version, or one should also count edits that only partially undo something? And what does it mean "recent"? What if something "has been challenged by reversion" six months ago? And it is prone to gaming. Does this include reinstating content that was slightly different from the content challenged by reversion (two words were changed as during a recent AE case)?
This restriction led to countless conflicts, unnecessary discussions and divisive complaints on WP:AE. Does this restriction help to establish good relationships between users? No, exactly the opposite. Surprisingly, it does not help to establish any WP:Consensus because people start discussing procedures (was something a violation) instead of discussing the content. Personally, I think that was the worst editing restriction ever made in the project. My very best wishes (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think that creating any general templates for new types of restrictions (to be placed on a number of pages) is something very serious. This can and should be discussed on WP:AE to obtain WP:Consensus of uninvolved admins , as it actually happens during this discussion. Of course if the template will be approved by WP:Consensus here, then it will be used by individual admins for any pages of their choosing. But once again, this should be a discussion if the template would be helpful in general, not about any technical procedures or something else. My very best wishes (talk) 21:56, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Most important, all editing restrictions must be very simple and understandable, and not only to admins, but to all other participants (they are generally issued not for admins, but for other participants). This is not the case here because even admins happened to disagree about the interpretation and applications of this restriction, and not only during this AE discussion, but also during a number of previous AE discussions. My very best wishes (talk) 15:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 2)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Kingsindian
I oppose the amendment, the consensus required provision is good its enforce WP:ONUS and nullify edit wars.I think that consensus required should be a standard in every discretionary sanctions area--Shrike (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by Kingsindian
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I would grant the appeal, delete the template (and any corresponding editnotices), and thereby vacate all sanctions made in application of the template.
- Technically, the template as such is not an appealable sanction, because it's just, well, a template for a sanction. The template's application to a specific article by an administrator is the actual sanction that can be appealed. But we can treat this request as a class action appeal, as it were, of all such sanctions. I would appreciate it if editors who have followed this issue would ping, insofar as possible, all administrators who have used this template so that they can comment.
- In my view, templated article-level sanctions are problematic because they do not take into specific circumstances of the editing environment of the article at issue. WP:AC/DS expects sanctioning admins to
- "use their experience and judgment to balance the need to assume good faith, to avoid biting genuine newcomers and to allow responsible contributors maximum editing freedom with the need to keep edit-warring, battleground conduct, and disruptive behaviour to a minimum."
- This requirement to apply discretion is not compatible with a one-size-fits-all approach to sanctions, which a template embodies. In some cases, the editing environment may be so toxic that a restriction such as the "consensus required" provision may be needed, but in many cases individual blocks, bans or protections may be a more proportionate response. The widespread use of a template containing complicated rules such as a "consensus required" rules will cause many technical violations of discretionary sanctions to occur in the course of ordinary and, in and of itself, probably not sanction-worthy content disputes.
- It is best, therefore, to remove the template and leave admins free to individually (re-)apply appropriate sanctions to such articles as may (still) warrant it. Sandstein 11:02, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Reject the template is not how discretionary sanctions are applied. It is a courtesy placed on the talk page. The actual sanctions are logged at the arbitration enforcement log. Additionally, users are alerted to them not by the talk page template, but by page notices. As the arbitration enforcement log shows, many administrators are willing to not impose these sanctions on articles if they don’t want to, so the complaint is really with the overwhelming majority of the articles sanctioned by Coffee. People like to bitch about these sanctions, but they work, and they are the main reason that the American politics field isn’t an even bigger mess than it is today. Sandstein, your suggested course of action ignores the fact that any validly applied sanctions were placed by an individual administrator on his own discretion (Coffee) and he has recently spoken out in favour of keeping the sanctions. If we vacate the “template sanctions”, I would personally go through the now sanctionless articles and likely apply the exact same sanctions to most of them myself immediately after the appeal was over because of how volitile this topic area is. There is no reason to waste time and increase the disruption on American politics articles. TonyBallioni (talk) 11:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Also, I will note, again, that consensus required is already policy through WP:ONUS. The fact that what it takes to get people to actually follow that policy is a discretionary sanction is ridiculous but it is the case. Speaking to the sanctions I have placed, I strongly object to their removal from the Roy Moore article given that they weren’t placed mindlessly and that I think I typically have decent “discretion”. Finally, I’ll note that what we are being asked to do here is give people license to multi-party edit war on some of the most controversial and significant articles to the public. I cannot support that, and it is what this amendment would do.TonyBallioni (talk) 12:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I could get behind the Wordsmith’s suggestion. This should be based upon the actual sanction listed at the arbitration enforcement log. If it doesn’t list 1RR/Consensus required, remove the template. Keep in place, however, the sanctions if they were intentionally applied by an admin, and make it clear any admin can still choose to apply this set of sanctions in individual cases if they wish. Basically, all of Coffee’s page level sanctions should be kept as should any others where this was the intent. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek and Kingsindian: it is unclear to me whether this would affect pages already tagged with the template (most of them by Coffee, who did place it intentionally), or just be a change going forward, which is why I am concerned. If the concern is that this standard template is not what most administrators intend to impose, may I offer what I consider a simpler suggestion: we substitute the template on the pages where we know it was the intent of the admin to impose it (so basically anything imposed by Coffee or myself, and those where the AE log specifically notes "consensus required"). We then take the template to TfD, delete it, and instruct admins to use the standard discretionary sanctions talk page notice rather than this bundled one. I think this addresses some of @Sandstein and Bishonen:'s valid concerns while respecting that some administrators did use this template intentionally because they liked the bundle. If we are going to move away from this template, we might as well move away from any specific US politics DS template and require admins to think about what thye are imposing. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:55, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: I was referencing templates like the one I placed on Talk:Roy Moore sexual abuse allegations, which requires admins to type out the sanction they want to place, when I said "standard". I'm fine with not having a default template here, but I'm opposed to changing the current restrictions (criticism of Coffee being valid and all, but they do work well on a lot of these pages.) TonyBallioni (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- @GoldenRing: your solution is much more complex than simply substituting the existing template. I'd also be opposed to editing the existing template because it might bias people who would otherwise be placing the sanctions intentionally against placing them not knowing it had been changed. The best "split the baby" result here is to get rid of the current template and make admins apply sanctions by hand with Template:Ds/talk notice. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- How is swapping one template for another more complex than substituting the template that's there? Especially when the time comes to remove it... GoldenRing (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Because it leaves in place the sanctions that were intentionally placed by an administrator and keeps the same format that people are used to seeing on the article, making confusion less likely. Also, you are operating under the assumption that the template will be removed, which is unclear here. Substitution also deals with NeilN's concerns that another admin can come along and edit the template and make it look like the sanctions were changed. I very strongly oppose your solution here because I think it complicates needlessly a situation that doesn't need anymore complication. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- How is swapping one template for another more complex than substituting the template that's there? Especially when the time comes to remove it... GoldenRing (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Support amendment. I seem to keep saying this, but I just don't like to find myself on a list that seems to imply (?) that I have placed articles under the "consensus required" provision (MrX's list above). I did do that, once, then came to think the restriction was too difficult to understand, and too much of an invitation to "gotcha" filings, and removed it from the page where I had placed it. I won't place it again, in the form that it has now, and I agree with Kingsindian's amendment. Bishonen | talk 13:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC).
- As before, I don't have much opinion on this either way in terms of whether we use "consensus required" going forward. I do oppose deleting the template, since that just makes a lot of busy-work replacing it with appropriate talk page notices. If consensus required is removed, I'll replace it with the following sanction on all pages it's currently in place on: "Editors cannot restore edits which they have introduced within 24 hours if the edits have been reverted." ~ Rob13 15:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose changing template if it means modifying existing restrictions. This would affect the many articles where the admin has purposely added the "consensus required" restriction. Admins did not have to use this template if they didn't want to impose all the restrictions it listed. Also, any templates like this really should be substituted rather than transcluded to prevent one admin making undiscussed changes that would affect hundreds of articles they had no interest in. Finally Sandstein's proposal of vacating all sanctions is a non-starter. He assumes admins take a "one-size-fits-all approach" when applying sanctions with no evidence to back it up. A list of cases where neutral parties would agree that an editor was unfairly sanctioned because of the restriction is needed at a minimum. --NeilN 16:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Grant appeal per Sandstein. He said it best, so I won't parrot him, but the "consensus" clause has caused problems and should not be automatically applied to all articles falling under this Arb ruling, if any at all. I'm not as big into repealing all previous sanctions, but I won't labor it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to make the rare move of disagreeing with Dennis Brown here, and Sandstein in the process. It is clear that some admins have applied the "consensus required" restriction deliberately and oppose overturning it; and it is clear that many admins oppose overturning the restriction without putting something else similar in place (see the discussion here). Contra Sandstein, deleting the template does not vacate the restriction on all articles where it has been used; AE sanctions are valid when and only when logged at WP:DSLOG. There appear to be a largish number of articles where the template has been applied but the relevant sanction not logged; we should not construe the restriction as valid in those cases.Therefore, I think the right way forward is to edit the the current template to remove the consensus required restriction; to create a new and more obscure template that includes the consensus required restriction; and to apply that new template wherever the "consensus required" restriction has been validly logged. It'd be an hour or so of fairly dull work, I'm afraid, but that's what we have the mop for. I'm willing to do it. As far as I can see, doing so doesn't really require a formal consensus here, either, since it's not modifying any valid AE sanctions (though I'm not going to run off and do it now without further discussion). GoldenRing (talk) 10:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The arbitration committee have authorised standard discretionary sanctions, not any specific 'consensus required' sanction. Individual admins have placed pages under a combination of 1RR and 'consensus required'. These restrictions are authorised by the committee's DS authorisation, but are only put in place by individual admins. They are only valid when logged at WP:DSLOG. A number of admins also seem to have imposed 1RR on pages and placed {{Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions}}, not realising that it also mentions the 'consensus required' restriction. I would not construe this as imposing the restriction; sanctions must be logged at WP:DSLOG or they are not valid and the template is only a courtesy note (in this case an inaccurate one for many articles). GoldenRing (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why the template should be changed, so there isn't a template stating there is a restriction when one is not in place, as that causes problem. This is separate from the idea that the sanction should or shouldn't be used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree with Dennis 100% here, which is why I think if any changes are made, it should be in the direction of getting rid of the area-specific-notice templates, and making admins write out by hand what their actual intent is so we aren't confused when it comes here. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Which is why the template should be changed, so there isn't a template stating there is a restriction when one is not in place, as that causes problem. This is separate from the idea that the sanction should or shouldn't be used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The arbitration committee have authorised standard discretionary sanctions, not any specific 'consensus required' sanction. Individual admins have placed pages under a combination of 1RR and 'consensus required'. These restrictions are authorised by the committee's DS authorisation, but are only put in place by individual admins. They are only valid when logged at WP:DSLOG. A number of admins also seem to have imposed 1RR on pages and placed {{Post-1932 American politics discretionary sanctions page restrictions}}, not realising that it also mentions the 'consensus required' restriction. I would not construe this as imposing the restriction; sanctions must be logged at WP:DSLOG or they are not valid and the template is only a courtesy note (in this case an inaccurate one for many articles). GoldenRing (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
- Decline appeal. I agree with GoldenRing, there appear to be instances where the "consensus required" provision was deliberately and intentionally applied and instances where it wasn't. Once the two versions are in place, I would be open to hearing appeals regarding the "consensus required" provision in individual cases where someone feels it isn't working, but not mass removal. I would also not object to an alternative being proposed to be introduced as a third option, and if that happens discussion of individually converting individual applications between "consensus required" and the new provision would be fine, but again not indiscriminately. Thryduulf (talk) 10:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
James J. Lambden
Blocked 48 hours for TBAN violation. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 1 December 2017 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning James J. Lambden
Not applicable; relates to existing topic ban.
I noted the violation and asked the user to self-revert the violation; they responded by reverting my notification and calling it "bullying". Given that they won't self-revert, this is the unfortunately necessary option. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning James J. LambdenStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by James J. LambdenIt is waste of time to file a complaint for a talk page edit which I suggested be discussed with the administrator who imposed the topic ban. My comment had nothing to do with Trump and the subject's association with Trump is disputed. According to our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from rhetoric." If I am to interpret this topic ban as applying to every article that mentions Trump it is effectively a ban on most AP2 articles. As that was not the ban imposed it is not reasonable to assume it was the intention. Had a non-partisan editor or administrator suggested I remove the comment I would have. In fact earlier today I unintentionally violated the topic ban, which I caught and reverted, asking the administrator who imposed the ban for clarification precisely to avoid these issues. James J. Lambden (talk) 05:42, 1 December 2017 (UTC) @Aquillion: It is disputed. Again from our article "mentions of Trump have mostly been scrubbed from rhetoric." My interest is because they are a pro-speech group. For the same reason I have edited The Evergreen State College, 2017 Berkeley protests, Google's Ideological Echo Chamber, BAMN and Gab (social network). @BMK: Re: "if the edit were a violation" If I say "no" someone else says "yes" who is right? If the "yes" came from an admin or even a disinterested editor I would have accepted it. The question is whether it was reasonable for me to assume the scope includes this article given the specificity of the ban (Trump) and the insignificant difference in effect between that ban and an AP2 ban if it is interpreted this broadly. @Masem: I do not see how in a sanction here would be preventative rather than punitive. I attempted to clarify the scope of the topic ban with GoldenRing hours before that edit to determine whether the scope should be interpreted so broadly. Whatever the decision I would have respected it. A simple clarification from GoldenRing will be 100% "preventative." James J. Lambden (talk) 07:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved Beyond My KenThree (obvious) points:
Statement by AquillionJust as a note, the group's association with Trump is not disputed. Just looking at the discussion that Lambden linked above makes that obvious; the dispute was not over whether the group's primary activity was pro-Trump rallies (all versions described their pro-Trump position prominently within the first or second sentence) - the dispute was over whether they stood for anything else at all. But organizing pro-Trump rallies is their primary activity (and this has been prominent in every stable version of the lead, as well as detailed in the article itself); James J. Lambden knows this, having edited the article for a while. I think, given the fact that James J. Lambden's user page consists (as of this writing) solely of a giant picture of Trump, it is reasonable to conclude that the fact that the group primarily organizes pro-Trump rallies is his main reason for editing the page. --Aquillion (talk) 06:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning James J. Lambden
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DHeyward
DHeyward is topic banned for 1 month from articles about living and recently deceased American politicians, and related topics, broadly construed. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:53, 2 December 2017 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning DHeyward
The article is under a 1RR restriction. DHeyward made FOUR reverts in less than 24 hours.
1. Note that initially I thought DHeyward only violated 1RR because he just popped up on my watchlist twice in quick succession. Feeling nice and assuming good faith I asked him to self-revert . Only then did I actually look at the history and realized that he's pretty much started a full out edit war by reverting FOUR times on a ONE revert restricted article. In response to my courtesy request for self-revert (which was not required on my part) Dheyward decided to get cute. He did revert but... to his initial preferred version . Basically he repeated his very first revert , completely removing the pertinent info in the article. Note that even if there was some doubt about consensus for the material on Nov 30 10:20 (time of first revert), there was no such doubt by Dec 1, 4:52, with User:MelanieN and User:Objective3000 who were initially hesitant to include, changing their minds by this point. This phony self-revert looks like an attempt at WP:GAMEing. I repeated my request pointing out nature of his fake self-revert but he has ignored it. 2. The nature of the reverts itself raises serious concerns. First, there's the removal of well sourced information. Worse however, is the fact that when DHeyward realized consensus was against him and he couldn't remove the pertinent paragraph he purposefully rewrote the text to misrepresent both sources and the nature of the situation overall. In particular the text is about the fact that a woman, most likely associated with the organization Project Veritas, came to the Washington Post with a phony story about how Roy Moore got her pregnant. But the whole thing was a setup and an attempt to trick WaPo into publishing something false. Of course WaPo smelled something fishy, investigated, and exposed the scheme. This is what happened and what reliable sources happened. So how did DHeyward write it up? Well as can be seen he wrote it to make it seem like this was "just another false allegation against Roy Moore". He did this by removing or minimizing the pertinent context of the whole thing being a set up. He basically portrayed it as something opposite of what actually happened. This is a clear case of WP:AGENDA editing and done pretty deceptively at that. This isn't an isolated instance of such behavior; the same was noted just few days ago in the WP:AE request above concerning User:Anythingyouwant, by User:Drmies - , Since the nature of the violation is quite egregious (4 reverts on 1RR article, sneaky manipulation) a broad topic ban is in order. @Masem - the "agenda" charge isn't really about Roy Moore though. It's about how DHeyward rewrote "Project Veritas tried to trick Washington Post into publishing a false story" as "a woman made false accusations against Roy Moore". I mean, yeah, she did. But she didn't do it to hurt Moore, she did it to try and discredit the women who have come out with their stories. Since these women are also "living people" in this instance the BLP (aside from the AGENDA misrepresentation) would apply the other way. Volunteer Marek 19:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DHeywardStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DHeywardI apologize for edit warring. That was not necessary. I will raise some issues though. First, Volunteer Marek I believe is under a topic ban for articles related to Donald Trump. Trump is listed in the lead of the article in question. Trump has also stated that he believes Moore and not the women who have made complaints. This article is certainly within the broadly construed meaning of his topic ban and had he adhered to his topic ban, the collegial atmosphere of continuous editing editing would have continued just like this edit shows. Second, there are not four reverts as Volunter Marek has exagerated. The links listed show the original rewrite (1:18 December 1) which is not a revert. The third on his list () was removing the "raped" allegation that VM pointed out in his edit. There are 2 reverts which is a violation of 1RR. The last revert was to a condition prior the version VM prefers. There was no way to satisfy both 1RR and CONSENSUS. VM pretends his version has consensus when in fact the only discussion is about the event. MrX who commented below has also violated 1RR with these edits. For a statement that he says has strong consensus to add, no other editors seemed compelled to do it and he had to violate 1RR to get it. Volunteer Marek provides a random collection of links implying there are related blocks that are relevant. None of those links are related to AP2. It was very deceitful to list any of those links as relevant here. He is mud slinging in an attempt at overreach. As for AGENDA, just review my edit. I described the false accusation as it relates to Roy Moore and sexual abuse allegations. That is essentially the topic of the article (see article Title). I did not remove any any relevant material and also argued that its nature makes it a poor fit here. Volunteer Mareks edit comment is very telling. . WM states I apologize for edit warring. I'm don't believe a block is necessary and certainly not any AE sanction. If a sanction is deemed necessary then VM should be sanctioned for violating his Trump Topic ban levied only a few weeks ago and violating the consensus requirement as well as pushing unrelated an unsubstantiated claims into an article with sensitive BLP concerns. MrX also violated 1RR as shown above. I'd prefer just not to have any action against anyone. --DHeyward (talk) 23:59, 1 December 2017 (UTC) TonyBallioni @Volunteer Marek states: Statement by MrXI concur with Volunteer Marek's comments. The first diff is an attempt by DHeyward to defy firm consensus, and the first revert of this edit made two days earlier. This edit is an unambiguous and brazen violation of the 1RR restriction, in addition to being a second violation of WP:CONSENSUS. The other edits are arguably reverts and POV pushing. At the very least, they are aggravating actions by this editor indicating that he is not suited to edit these types of articles.- MrX 15:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by MONGOMeh...I see no talk page consensus for the addition and possible BLP violation restored by MrX here after DHeyward was seemingly boxed in. There is a complete lack of dispassionate editing here by MrX and others....but when one spends all their time working on politically charged topics, how can we ever believe that their goals are a neutral treatise? I find the plausibility of such to be completely unrealistic and therefore find condemnations of others they disagree with to be laughable.--MONGO 19:46, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by MastCellThis is an obvious 1RR violation, documented by diffs, with no relevant exemptions. It should be dealt with expeditiously. The idea behind discretionary sanctions is to make it easier and more efficient to deal with disruptive editing, so it's ironic and counterproductive when these sorts of obvious, straightforward cases become needlessly complicated as a result of the WP:AE mechanism. If an admin saw this case at WP:ANEW, they'd block and move on. I'm not clear why we allow AE to hinder the speedy resolution of basic conduct issues on the articles that need it most. The 1RR violation is compounded by the "self-revert", which was nothing of the sort; it was dishonest gamesmanship, as pointed out above. I think a standard block for edit-warring would be appropriate, and would personally advocate a topic ban (at least a time-limited one) given the bad faith described above. (I'm commenting here as an editor, not as an admin, because I have recently been involved in a discussion with DHeyward on WP:RS/N about sourcing questions on the Moore article. While I'm not convinced that noticeboard input necessarily creates "involvement", I'm commenting here, rather than below, to avoid sidetracking this clear-cut case any further). MastCell 22:40, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning DHeyward
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Archwayh
Archwayh is blocked for a month for violating their topic ban. Sandstein 19:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Archwayh
Topic banned from "all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people".
All diffs (or links to talk pages) listed below demonstrate that Archwayh has violated their topic ban.
On May 25, 2017, Archwayh was topic banned for one month. On June 2, 2017, the topic ban was extended to six months. Archwayh has said that they didn't know they were topic banned as they hadn't read their user talk page. I actually find the explanation plausible: this explains why Archwayh continued to mark all their edits as minor even after they were told to stop it. On June 16, 2017, Archwayh asks Lord Roem whether talk pages fall within the topic ban. Inbetween those edits Archwayh edits Talk:Donald Trump (example). Lord Roem explains that talk pages are included in the topic ban. On June 29, 2017, Archwayh opens a discussion related to American politics with JFG. When JFG informs Archwayh that they may be violating their topic ban, they claim that the topic ban "has nothing to do w/ page talk". On October 10 and October 26 they make edits which to me appear to be perfectly fine, except that the edit summary refers to American politics. Rest of the evidence should speak for itself (edits about post-1932 politics of the United States, edits to pages about US politics, or closely related people). It seems obvious that Archwayh doesn't understand what they were topic banned from (and why), and I'm not convinced they will. Politrukki (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Archwayh&diff=813082793&oldid=803507767 Discussion concerning ArchwayhStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ArchwayhI have not made any edit directly related to politics, or thous as such that could be debated as political-oriented & then be removed. And re: Bloomberg, that was a FIX to an error that should be applauded. That wasn't a political-motivated change or ad, but a FIX. The minor edit on Bush was related to small grimmer fix -- not some controversial or political-oriented one. If I didn't understand these term, then I obviously apologize. But, inn essence, this is a complete lie by a user who is conducting a political witch hunt against me, bc he doesn't like my views (and for COL, I am a moderate centrist & not some ideologue who pushed agenda in Wiki. All of these attacks against me were * being perused by this obsessed user, who's fixated on me for some reason. To contrast, he he is a right-wing ideologue who supports Ted Cruz, from what I know). If he won't stop, I plan to peruse other options to stop him from smearing me. I am planning to file a complaint about his alleged corrupt behavior later on. Edits that have been on some figures that may be political aren't related directly to politics, and they were commonly agreed or small fixes. Further, most edits were on user PAGES, and didn't even influenced Misplaced Pages. This user, that continues this obsessive witch hint, will hear from me. If I edited something that doesn't directly relates to politics, but could be perceived as such -- then I am obviously sorry. But I didn't violate anything at least knowingly, & my small number of edits were small, non-political & commonly agreed. That's my statement Archway (talk) 17:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC) Statement by JFGI would tend to be lenient about occasional chit-chat about politics on a user talk page, as happened on mine a few months ago. However we cannot accept blatant requests for other people to edit by proxy on behalf of the TBANned editor. Either this is bad faith or gross incompetence. In both cases, a harsher sanction is warranted, perhaps a 6-month block with the usual avenues to get unblocked and return to collegial editing within the project's rules. — JFG 18:19, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Archwayh
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