Talk:Naz Shah - Misplaced Pages

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Requested move 12 October 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus is that the proposed title is the most common name. History swap required as there was some not-insignificant history at the target title. Jenks24 (talk) 08:56, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Naseem Shah → Naz Shah – WP:COMMONNAME. Media coverage usually refers to her as Naz, as does her Parliamentary profile and her Twitter Move allowed by admin only for unclear reasons. News favours Naz over Naseem by a large margin AusLondonder (talk) 00:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Support. Naseem is her birth and childhood name, Naz looks like a shortening, but all indications are that it is now used as her proper name, with the offical MP webpage http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/naz-shah/4409 using "Naz", in addition to newspapers, it is clear that "Naz" is her used and accepted name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:29, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2016

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Please change "She voted for George Galloway at the Bradford West by-election in 2012" to read "She claims to have voted for George Galloway at the Bradford West by-election in 2012" or similar.

Voting in UK elections is secret and the existing statement is incapable of verification.

Done - although I used "stated" instead of "claims", which some see as a value-laden phrase - Arjayay (talk) 16:38, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

racism

Article needs coverage of Shah's aggressive, race-hatred of Jews.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The article already covers several antisemitic comments from Shah, are there any more comments that you think should be added? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The section should be headed racism, with the present headers used as sub-heads. As it stands, a reader scanning the page - as we all do - misses the issue, which is the overt racism of her attitudes over the period of several years.160.39.35.48 (talk) 18:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The article should also note the comment by Rabbi Rudi Leavor of the Bradford Reform Synagogue that Naz Shah is "a friend of the Jews". RolandR (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Withdraw some of the above comments, please: anti-Zionism not = anti-semitism!--5.150.92.174 (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Why not quote Ken Livingstone's words?

>following his allegations that Hitler was a Zionist

He made no such allegations. Words have meaning and distorting them brings Misplaced Pages into disrepute. What he said is not long.

"What he said is not long". Do you mean long or wrong? If you mean long, that's pretty meaningless. If you mean wrong, then you are saying what Livingstone said is correct. And what Livingstone said is wrong. Hitler never backed Jewish migration to Israel. For many reasons. Wythy (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

131.111.184.102 (talk) 11:21, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a very legitimate issue. I think I've fixed it now so that it directly and accurately quotes what Livingstone said. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Why should this article explain what Livingstone said? Is it not sufficient to mention he was expelled from the party for anti-semitic remarks?--Ymblanter (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, he was expelled from the party trying to explain away comments made by Shah. I'm not bothered either way. The article on Livingstone can contain his comments from the interview. I was only really interested in ensuring that if we quote his comments in this article, they are accurate. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:08, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Sure, I am just not so much convinced we should quote them at all.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps because you appear to take an uncritical view of the Labour Party's action against him, and are seeking to support that by concealing the de facto relative innocence of Livingstone's intervention? BTW, Livingstone was suspended, not expelled, Tom Morris.---188.39.71.98 (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Suggested additional source -- in quoting responses to the controversy around Shah, it's probably relevant to quote another extremely prominent UK voice, George Galloway. See his statement: http://ahtribune.com/religion/856-naz-shah-anti-semitism.html. Thanks.SM-Mara (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

What in particular about Galloway's statement do you feel needs to be included? And on what basis, given he is neither an elected MP nor a member of the Labour Party and is currently on course to get 0-2% of the vote and end up fifth in the London mayoral election? —Tom Morris (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Not sure. He's a well-known and prominent person whose commentary could add breadth to discussion, but perhaps doesn't represent additional info not already covered. Was seeking range of sources in following the topic. SM-Mara (talk) 18:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Galloway is the former MP for Bradford West who Shah beat in the May 2015 election, so I believe his comments are relevant. This quote below is the part that I think is relevant;

"It is said, and seems to have been accepted in some unlikely places, that Shah is guilty of "anti-Semitism". She is not, at least on the evidence which has emerged to date. Her comments are half-witted to be sure, and their appearance at this time will prove a mighty headache for Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn (who is actually what this is all about) and may prove very significant in British politics over the next few months. But they are not anti-Semitic."

I have tried to give a summary of the quote. Please feel free to improve what I have added. Ulgarg (talk) 20:12, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Just been trying to find out something about the "American Herald Tribune" but can't find anything about them except a small amount on their webpage. Do we know anything about them, SM-Mara? Are they reputable? Ulgarg (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Galloway is way outside mainstream opinion on this issue, which Naz Shah has in any case accepted. As has often been said, Galloway has regularly "crossed the line" on applicable issues, and we are not required to cite fringe opinions. Regardless as to whether American Herald Tribune counts as RS, which looks unlikely, his viewpoint should not be quoted here. Philip Cross (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to replace it with something from someone of mainstream opinion like Len McCluskey and/or Dianne Abbott?? Ulgarg (talk) 22:56, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't know anything particular about the American Herald Tribune, just know Galloway is certainly an internationally known figure. Not sure it's accurate to say Naz Shah has "accepted" that she is anti-Semitic from what I've seen, though I may not have read everything.SM-Mara (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The commentary needs trimming rather than adding to, but as a prominent member of Shah's party Diane Abbott would certainly be a better candidate for comments on Shah than someone as outspoken on the subject of anti-Semitism as George Galloway. Since Shah herself has apologised there's really no need to manufacture a debate about whether her comments were appropriate or not. I'd suggest a line from Shah's apology, Rentoul's comments and a line about Livingstone (relevant more because he got himself into trouble than because he had anything particularly interesting to add about Shah herself) is plenty of commentary. Dtellett (talk) 18:45, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Marriage

The article says she was married by arrangement. Is the marriage now dissolved? Has she remarried or is she single, or what? Wythy (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, her marital status might be of even more significance now (Aug. 2017), following reports of her advice to sexual grooming victims to keep quiet. Valetude (talk) 23:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

a Facebook meme in August 2014 supporting the relocation of Israel to the USA.

>a Facebook meme in August 2014 supporting the relocation of Israel to the USA.

"...a satirical dig at proposals to force the Palestinians to move into Jordan or Saudi Arabia – the point being that both Israel and the USA would object passionately to the proposal in the image, so why is it okay to inflict a similar situation on Palestinians, Jordanians and Saudis?"

The meme was not created to support the relocation of Israel to the USA. Professor Finkelstein did not reblog it that way.

https://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2016/05/03/naz-shah-the-anti-semitism-allegations-and-apartheid-israel/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

131.111.184.102 (talk) 11:54, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

and in September appeared to compare Israeli policies to those of Adolf Hitler.

>and in September appeared to compare Israeli policies to those of Adolf Hitler.

Would it be a good idea to give the source of the words attached to that meme, Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail 1963-04-16?

"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was “legal” and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was “illegal.” It was “illegal” to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler’s Germany. Even so, I am sure that, had I lived in Germany at the time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers." — Martin Luther King (Letter from Birmingham Jail 1963-04-16)

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Letter_Birmingham_Jail.pdf

131.111.184.102 (talk) 12:46, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean a bit more? I can't see "and in September appeared to compare Israeli policies to those of Adolf Hitler." anywhere in the article. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

It's at the end of a sentence in the first half of the article, and the IP editor is quite correct that the meme Shah posted specifically cites Martin Luther King (with Shah's comment "#APARTHEID ISRAEL"). The comparison between Israel and Hitler is Shah's though, not Luther King's, and the picture doesn't use the extended text of the speech about aiding and comforting. I think we could probably find a more neutral source on the issue than the Jewish Chronicle, but can't see anything wrong with the actual wording as is. Same with the satirical meme about relocating Israel meme: if she'd used it in the context the original author used it and defended herself on the basis that "it was satire, and these are the relocation policies I'm criticising" then it would be important to include details of its origin and the surrounding debate in the article. Since she tweeted it with "problem solved" and a joke about saving Obama and Cameron some pocket money and subsequently disowned the comments altogether I think adding any more detail about what was said and analysis about why it might have been said would (i) end up looking even more unfavourable to Shah if drafted in a NPOV manner and (ii) be undue weight. Dtellett (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Double standards?

Hi, I see that Ms Shah's recents comments which've received mainstream media coverage is rightly being covered on her page. I've tried to include a similar controversy and views section on Yisrael Katz's page but it keeps getting removed by users claiming it's an undue/unbalanced/false representation due to percentage of information compared to rest of page. I don't see this claim being made here where around 80% of page is about her recent comments.

Because at the end of the day, surely if information is notable enough to be covered by media then it's useful and important for Misplaced Pages readers to find a version of it which considers all viewpoints rather than from particular angle elsewhere. But I can't understand why same standard isn't being used on both pages.

I must strongly stress I've no intention to encourage any kind of pro/anti left-wing/right-wing, Labour/Conservatives, Israeli/Palestinian etc comments. Just neutral, unbiased, partial opinion about balance that applies here to also apply there. Any takers? 86.154.254.204 (talk) 17:15, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Raise your concerns about that article on its talkpage, not this one. Thanks. Lugnuts 18:32, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

That's been done and got no where with that. 86.154.254.204 (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Tough shit then. Maybe go for an WP:RFC (on that article). Good luck. Lugnuts 17:40, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. If you do open an rfc, then feel free to link to it here, but this is not the place to discuss another article. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:02, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources for Owen Jones retweet issue

The big source for the story seems to be a Sun article. Misplaced Pages doesn't seem to let the Sun be used as a source, so instead people seem to have used a story in a local paper that seems to selectively quote the rebuttal from Shah's office. Also used as a citation was a Yahoo story based on the Sun story which includes a link to the Sun story.

The problem with this is the local paper omits the Shah spokesman making the point that the retweet was corrected after only a few minutes and tries to make it sound like Shah only retracted under pressure 'later' on (later implies hours/days, not minutes). The spokesman is unlikely to lie about something that can easily be proved by anyone paying attention to her twitter account.

Fortunately the yahoo story does include the full line:

"This was a genuine accident eight days ago that was rectified within minutes. To suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense."

So I've cited that as a source to correct it.

It's an unusual situation where a source that's hostile to Naz Shah actually contains the bit of information key to assessing the facts in her defense. 77.103.105.67 (talk) 16:33, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

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