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Christianity in Independence section of infobox

I have removed the phrase "301 AD Official Adoption of Christianity" from the infobox. While the adoption of Christianity was undeniably an important moment in the history of Armenia, it has nothing to dopla with gaining independence or sovereignty: it was a decision by an already independent state. It deserves a lot of attention in History of Armenia, but the infobox is not meant for information like this. Aecis 00:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

301 AD is one of the most important dates for all Armenians. In a sense, it helped to establish the Armenian nation in a significant way as it shaped the Armenian identification. For me, an Armenian, the year that Armenia adopted Christianity is just as important as those years when it was established or became independent. It should also be noted that Bulgaria has its Christianity adoption date included on its infobox. -- Clevelander 01:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
As I said, it was undeniably an important moment in the history of Armenia. That's why it should be mentioned at History of Armenia. But an important moment for a nation's identity is not automatically related to the independence of that nation. Adopting a religion is not a declaration of independence, or acquiring that independence. Aecis 01:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The infobox IS meant for information like this! Who exactly are you to decide that it isn't? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 01:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
First of all I wanna urge you to calm down. Words like "who are you to decide" here or "utter crap" in a previous edit summary do not contribute anything to wikipedia. I would also like you to assume good faith on my part: like you, I don't have an agenda to follow (of which you accused me in your edit summary on Bulgaria).
We can both read. We can both see that the bold text heading that section says "independence". In every other country article, it simply says: independence declared: then-and-then; independence recognized: then-and-then. And that's what it should say in a section titled independence. Adopting a religion has barely anything to do with declaring or acquiring independence. It may be one of the factors in starting a process that can eventually lead to independence, but that's not enough to make mention of in the infobox. Aecis 01:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to figure out where you are coming from with this, when such significant historical events have been tolerated for many country articles infoboxes, and I urge you to tolerate it for Armenia and Bulgaria. I see now those were the only countries you removed it on, but they both happened to come up on my list so I wrongly guessed you were doing it to several other countries as well - sorry if I overreacted. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 01:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Could you point me to some of the "many country article infoboxes" on which "such significant historical events have been tolerated"? I've now been through all of the European countries and much of Africa and Asia, and I've only come across Georgia, Armenia and Bulgaria. In Georgia, the reference to christianization has been removed, so only Armenia and Bulgaria remain. Why should these two be any different from the other countries? Yes, the christianization has played an important role in the national history of these two countries, but it has played an important role in the history of other countries as well. Could you explain to me how adopting a religion equals declaring or acquiring independence? Aecis 16:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine either way, but one can make the argument that it's more important on the Eastern periphery of Europe than say in Central, Western or Nothern Europe. --Eupator 16:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of going off-topic: That's indeed an argument one could make, and as a historian I find it feasible to some extent. However, western European countries were largely responsible for the spread of christianity in other continents. Christianization has been important in different ways in Eastern, Western, Central, Northern and Southern Europe. It's very hard to attach comparative importance to those differing historical trajectories of christianity. Aecis 17:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

To Calgvla

My suggestion is by no means "racist", but just an attempt to make a compromise. Here are some points:

  1. You said that "this texts keeps it consistent with the armenians arcile". However, the Armenians page says that Armenians originated in the Middle East. Please do not play with words.
  2. Also, if you want to prove that Armenia is in the Middle East, please cite reliable sources. If you ask me, Armenia is in the Caucasus.
  3. What do you mean the citation Eupator added is "fictional"?

—Khoikhoi 07:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"# ^ The Geographic Web Site World Atlas places Armenia in Europe as do most European governments and sources, such as the BBC. The UN classification of world regions places Armenia in Western Asia as does the CIA World Factbook."

What European Govts and Sources think Armenian is in Europe? This is contradictory to the European Unions official position on Armenian and any Atlas produced by a respected publisher.

When did the BBC say Armenia was part of Europe, please state your source.--Calgvla 08:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

  • 2.) The Contries of Europe entry should be below the Asia sections, it will mislead the reader into think Armenia may actually be in Europe
  • 3.) I don't understand why this is an issue of debate, buy a map!

Armenia is Non-European, Proposed Changes

It is an offensive Point of View to include Armenia on the European continent, Armenia is located in Asia. How would you feel if some stranger stuck their picture in your family photo book? This is the case of a small group here trying to force Armenia into the European family.

I propose the following changes to remove the subjective point of view that Armenia is in Europe. The following changes will create a more truthful and accurate article that will cease to offend Europeans.

1.) Replace "Eurasia" with Middle East or Asia Minor, "Eurasia" is far to broad of a geographic area and replacing it with an accurate and more narrow geographic location will better serve Misplaced Pages readers.

2.) Replace this quote with the following, Current Quote

"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, however the official geographic classification of the country varies according to different sources. As a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."

Proposed Quote "Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is unique among it's Middle Eastern neighbors."

discussion of geography should be limited to the geography section.

3.) At the end of the Article the "Countries of Europe" section should be removed to avoid confusion and only leave Countries of Asia and West Asia.

Armenia is in Asia therefore it is an Asian culture and people, it may have had some European influences like the US, Canada, Australia, etc. but this does not make them European nations, nor should Armenia be considered European.

Please let's put a stop to these offensive and dishonest European connections and stick with the factual truth. It is very hurtful to the European community to force this inclusion upon us.--Calgvla 18:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I support the proposed changes, they are fair and accurate.
I honestly don’t think it matters whether or not Armenia is considered a European or Asian nation. It is, of course, technically in the continent of Asia, but then again, so is most of Russia, a certainly “European” nation. And it would be inappropriate to deny the enormous cultural influence of the Greeks, Byzantines, and Romans on our people. Why Europeans would find the inclusion of Armenians among European peoples to be ‘offensive’ is hard to fathom. Would it offend central Europeans to have Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, or the Ukraine, or people in the Ural Mountains classified as European? East Kazakhstan falls within the boundaries of geographic Europe; would you consider eastern Kazakhs Europeans? ), and while the modern Armenian Homeland is located north of Anatolia, Diaspora communities have existed through the Middle East and southeast Europe for thousands of years. Besides, there is not strict guideline of what is ‘European’. Europe as both a cultural and genetic entity, has invaded (and, in turn, been invaded by) countless nations, both neighboring and afar. Many long-term inhabitants of the European mainland have closer connections, both cultural and genetic, to south and central Asia than they do to their neighbors. Europe is not a family; it is a thousand families who happen to share a chunk of history and a chunk of land. Geographical classification is no reason to disconnect Armenia, who has been a part of European history since before the birth of Christ, from being a ‘culturally European’ nation.

The Myotis 02:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As an afterthough, give me your exact definition of 'European'. Do you define it geographically (in wich case it is debatable, but the polls favor Europe) or culturally (in wich case it is is almost certaintly part of Europe)?
Also, why does it make any differce to you where Armenians come from? It's not as though you will suffer from having Armenia as part of the same Continent. And I dont think most inhabitants of Europe feel otherwise.

The Myotis 07:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


            • It matters to Europeans that their borders are not distorted. It’s best to serve the truth.
      Armenia is completely contained within Asia, therefore it is an Asian Culture.
      To say “Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of 
      Europe…” is wrong.
      Using this same logic, The US, Canada, Australia, New Zeland, etc. would also be 
      considered part of Europe. This would be an absurd conclusion. 
      Culturally Armenia has a predominate language, alphabet, traditions and customs 
      that originated outside of Europe, whereas the other aforementioned nations do not. 
      So they would have even a greater claim based on this logic.

      As for Armenia being a Christian nation, somehow qualifying it for inclusion in 
      Europe, this is also a fallacious criterion. By this logic Albania would be considered 
      part of Asia. More importantly the boundaries of Europe were clearly defined long 
      before Christianity was introduced.

     As for the Counsel of Europe, this is a non EU private organization. Being within the 
     Borders of Europe is not a requirement for membership. Any nation with significant 
     trade activities with Europe could join.

     In the larger picture even the EU does not require a nation be in the boundaries of 
     Europe to accept membership, e.g. Cypress. The EU is an organization with 
     expansionist Economic and Political goals.

     In a spirit of compromise and concession, I propose the following changes.

     1.) Replace "Eurasia" with Asia Minor, "Eurasia" is far to broad of a geographic area 
         and replacing it with an accurate and more narrow geographic location will better 
         serve Misplaced Pages readers.

     2.) Replace this quote with the following, 
         Current Quote
         "Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, however                 
         the official geographic classification of the country varies according to different 
         sources. As a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."

         Proposed Quote 
         "Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is unique among it's Asian neighbors.  
         Armenia has been highly influenced by European culture, trade, and politics, while 
         maintaining a rich indigenous culture, language and traditions"

     3.) At the end of the Article the "Countries of Europe" section should be removed to avoid 
         confusion and only leave Countries of Asia and West Asia.

         This is fair and accurate and we agree and move on?
         Peace to all--Caligvla 17:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Not going to happen.--Eupator 17:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see a source supporting that claim about the Council of Europe's entry criteria.--Tekleni 17:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the objections here. Armenia is in the Council of Europe (and the UEFA). As far as I am aware, Armenians themselves consider that they have cultural links to Europe, and, indeed, there has always been a large Armenian diaspora in Europe proper. Armenia is of course geographically in Asia, but that's not the be all and end all. john k 17:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Look at this. The BBC's country profiles lists Armenia in the European countries and not in the Asian countries. See the drop-down tables at the right of the page . Azerbaijan OTOH has both Europe and Asia .--Tekleni 18:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

To conclude, we would like to emphasize that the Armenian people – both in Armenia and in the European Diaspora – regards itself as a European people. This people was separated from the main European stream by unfortunate historical circumstances and is now resolutely committing to an in-depth reunification with the European family.

European Armenian Convention Declaration 19 October 2004, Brussels--Eupator 18:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we must respect their self-identification, and make it compatible with other views. Therefore, Eurasia is true NPOV as it doesn't take sides.--Tekleni 18:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
The entire foreign policy of the Republic of Armenia, likewise that of neighbouring Georgia is based on European integration or call it reintegration to be precise with the immediate goal of EU membership by 2020. The MFA has a European integration department for crying out loud.--Eupator 18:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
      • the BBC is not an unbaised source, and this is not the place to discuss it. There are many European and Armenian organizations trying to strengthen trade in the region, this does not change the geography of the region.

please keep things directed to unbaised academic sources that are non-political in nature. 1) The American Heritage Dictionary, places Armenia in Asia Minor 2) The CIA World Fact Book, places Armenia in Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey 3) Easton's Dictionary, places Armenia in western Asia 4) Encyclopedia Britannica, places Armenia in Transcaucasia, lying just south of the great mountain range of the Caucasus and fronting the northwestern extremity of Asia. 5) Rand McNally Atlas, places Armenia in Asia

the preponderance of credible academic non-political sources clearly establish Armenia in Asia, not Europe. Can we please agree to the changes and move on.--Caligvla 19:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The geographic ambiguity is already addressed here and everywhere else. Footnotes are abundant in the templates for Europe and Asia. Culturally, ethnically and historically Armenia is an extension of Europe. Due to the ambiguity of the region the term Eurasian is applicable for geographic purposes. Armenian self-definition and identification as Europeans counts for something as well. The EU also considers Armenia as well as Georgia long-term entry candidates for EU membership. We also have Cyprus as precedent. If you want to attempt to change Wiki consensus attempt an RFC, just try it :) You will need to do it for Cyprus, Georgia and Armenia. Note that this is the last time i'm directly responding to you. --Eupator 20:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hayastan is culturally in Asia, not in Europe. Its language is closely related to Persian and is not a member of European linguistic unity (which is based on Latin and Greek borrowings). Long history of Armenia is closely related to the great kingdoms of the ancient East and Mesopotamia. Menthality of Armenia is surely not European and racially they are close to the other nations of the Near and Middle East.--Nixer 22:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


      • They should be corrected as well, but I only have ability to take on one at a time, Again the EU is a political organization that does not require a nation to be IN Europe for membership.--Caligvla 20:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

See Copenhagen criteria.--Tekleni 20:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

See European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument Armenian is not IN Europe but an economic partner.--Calgvla 23:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

They do not say that Armenia is not in Europe... you made that up.--Tekleni

23:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like ot point out that the government of Armenia ha sofficially stated it has no wishes to join the E.U. or NATO and that it does not consider itself a European state.

69.196.164.190

Armenian in Misplaced Pages

A guideline on whether or not to italicize Armenian (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment:Armenia not located in Europe

This is a dispute about whether this article should state that Armenia is located in in Eurasia, or contain other text that implies that Armenia is part of Europe.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
  • I propose the following changes.
  • Replace "Eurasia" with Asia Minor, "Eurasia" is far too broad of a geographic area and replacing it with an accurate and more narrow geographic location will better serve Misplaced Pages readers.
  • Replace this quote with the following:
Current quote:
"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, however the official geographic classification of the country varies according to different sources. As a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."
Proposed Quote:
"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is unique among it's Asian neighbors. Armenia has been highly influenced by European culture, trade, and politics, while maintaining a rich indigenous culture, language and traditions"
  • At the end of the Article the "Countries of Europe" section should be removed to avoid confusion and only leave Countries of Asia and West Asia. -- Calgvla 22:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Eurasia is accurate and is used for other countries as well; maybe that passage is negotiable, however your version is biased as it implicitly says Armenia is no European in all aspects; Armenia has officially stated that they consider themselves European, they are a prospective member of the EU, and a full member of the Council of Europe (which required the consent of all existing members and Armenia), therefore the European template stays.--Tekleni 22:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please keep things directed to unbaised academic sources that are non-political in nature.
  1. The American Heritage Dictionary, places Armenia in Asia Minor
  2. The CIA World Fact Book, places Armenia in Southwestern Asia, east of Turkey
  3. Easton's Dictionary, places Armenia in western Asia
  4. Encyclopedia Britannica, places Armenia in Transcaucasia, lying just south of the great mountain range of the Caucasus and fronting the northwestern extremity of Asia.
  5. Rand McNally Atlas, places Armenia in Asia

the preponderance of credible academic non-political sources clearly establish Armenia in Asia, not Europe. --Calgvla 23:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments
      • I found the following journal artciles that all undergo Peer review, each one of them supports the claim that Armenia is not in Europe and in the Middle East.

1.Observation of Coherent π Electroproduction on Deuterons at Large Momentum Transfer. By: Tomasi-Gustafsson, E.; Bimbot, L.; Danagoulian, S.; Gustafsson, K.; Mack, D.; Mkrtchyan, H.; Rekalo, M.P.. Physics of Atomic Nuclei, Dec2003, Vol. 66 Issue 12, p2159-2168, 10p; DOI: 10.1134/1.1634323; (AN 11714909)

2.Armenia Wants Second Mideast Synchrotron. By: Koenig, Robert. Science, 11/24/2000, Vol. 290 Issue 5496, p1481, 1/2p, 1c; (AN 3817426)

3.Book reviews. By: Krikorian, Robert O.. International Journal of Middle East Studies, May98, Vol. 30 Issue 2, p276, 3p; (AN 607702)

4.Reviews of Books: Middle East. By: Bournoutian, George. American Historical Review, Oct97, Vol. 102 Issue 4, p1197, 2p; (AN 9711021875)

5.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Kechichian, Joseph A.. Middle East Journal, Autumn97, Vol. 51 Issue 4, p605, 2p; (AN 9711171671)

6.Africa & the Middle East. By: Papazian, Dennis R.. History: Reviews of New Books, Spring97, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p131, 3/8p; (AN 9705014215)

7.Book reviews: The Armenians. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Autumn96, Vol. 50 Issue 4, p596, 3p; (AN 9706241608)

8.Book reviews: Armenia. By: Adalian, Rouben P.. Middle East Journal, Summer95, Vol. 49 Issue 3, p509, 2p; (AN 9510232977)

9.Works on Islam in Russian. By: Landau, Jacob M.. Middle Eastern Studies, Jul93, Vol. 29 Issue 3, p580, 5p; (AN 9308307357)

10.Chosen peoples: Why ethnic groups survive. By: Smith, Anthony D.. Ethnic & Racial Studies, Jul92, Vol. 15 Issue 3, p436, 21p; (AN 9210192609)

--Caligvla 03:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


  • I think one of the issues here is the need for coherence. Turkey is - according to Misplaced Pages - Eurasian. These two articles being in the same encyclopedia, there must be internal coherence.
If Turkey is Eurasian, and Armenia is beyond Turkey (ie, separated from conventional "Europe" by Turkey), it must either be Eurasian or Asian. Physically, it can't be European, unless Turkey is European as well.
  • Another issue I find in this debate is the unfortunate use of the word "offensive". As a citizen of one of the oldest European nations - and I believe I am speaking for millions of other Europeans - I am not in the least bit offended if Armenians are considered (or consider themselves) European. They have a beautiful culture, and I'd feel honoured to count them among the European family if that is the geographical consensus.
If I were Armenian, I would have felt hurt by the suggestion that my presence in the continent could be "offensive". 83.132.98.80 10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The most accurate statement would be that Armenia is located in the Caucasus, which is essentially a borderline between Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. It would be correct to include Armenia in any of these categories but incorrect to exclude it from them. Saying Europeans wouldn't appreciate Armenians also being Europeans is nothing short of xenophobic. -- Augustgrahl 15:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Can we keep focused on the facts, just because one feels honored to include a group doesn't mean that the group is within the Geographical limits.--Caligvla 01:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
      • To address the "cultural" connection, the following journal article cites that Armenia is growing closer to the Middle East culturally and moving away from Europe. "Armenia and the Middle East" By Gayane Novikova from the Middle East Review of Internatonal Affairs Journal Vol. 4 No. 4 Dec. 2000.

So, we have both credible academic, non-politcal sources that do not place Armenia in Europe on a Geographic Basis, as well as academic peer reviewed journals that place Armenia culturally in the Middle East. Can we get a consensus to my proposed changes and close this discussion? My proposal is restated below with the subtraction of the Eurasia request, in the spirit of good will and compromise I will drop that.

  • Replace this quote with the following:
Current quote:
"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, however the official geographic classification of the country varies according to different sources. As a result, Armenia is sometimes seen as a transcontinental nation."
Proposed Quote:
"Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is unique among its Asian neighbors. Armenia has been highly influenced by European culture, trade, and politics, while maintaining a rich indigenous culture, language and traditions"
  • At the end of the Article the "Countries of Europe" section should be removed to avoid confusion and only leave Countries of Asia and West Asia.

peace to all--Caligvla 01:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Once again, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Ever!--Eupator 02:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion would to actually mention that there is controversy over whether it is or is not part of Europe. Along the lines of:
"Armenia is unique as it transverses both Asian and European spheres of influence. While there is debate over whether Armenia is 'European' or 'Asian', there is rich cultural, historical and political links with both Asia and Europe."
I will admit that I know little about Armenia, but that is one possibility. Good luck in finding a compromise. --Midnighttonight remind to go do uni work! 04:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, we are not looking for a compromise though as there is no reason to do so based on a single troll.--Eupator 15:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I see little reason to change the article. I mean, the BBC seems to consider Armenia as being wholly in Europe. That in itself is sufficient to ensure that {{Europe}} stays.--Tekleni 15:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a legitimate POV though, and must be represented per WP:NPOV. Your Turkish POV does not override the NPOV policy.--Tekleni 16:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)



      • As for the BBC, I have cited sources that have a higher standard of academic credibility. Please take the time to review them and leave the personal attacks out of the conversation.--Caligvla 17:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

There is very little debate or controversy on this subject. The only debate comes from right wing and neo-fascist political parties/advocates in Europe and elsewhere who do not wish to see the EU encompass nations like Turkey, Turkish Cyprus or other 'asian' nations based on veiled racism and outright bigotry. It's upsetting to see this appear in Misplaced Pages time and time again. Save the agenda for political speeches, please. I support the page's protected status until this cools down.--Roboczar 15:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

And yes and no.--Tekleni 16:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The geographic and cultural status of Armenia is a non-issue. I appreciate that you have a particular distaste for Armenians and do not wish them to be included in the EU, but that's something you can discuss with people who care to listen to your political views, not in a public work like Misplaced Pages. If you don't feel that they are part of your selective European club, take it up with your political leaders and stop trying to singlehandedly change consensus on what is not a controversial topic.--Roboczar 16:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
      • This has NOTHING to do with the EU, the EU is a political organization with an expansionist policy. I am not trying to dispute that. I have no such "distaste" for Armenians they have a rich Asian culture. However, when the boundaries of Europe are distorted it is an injustice. You are using the Straw man fallacy, and it is not appreciated.--Caligvla 17:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
      • What you seem to fail to understand, Caligvla, is the "boundaries" of Europe are arbitrary lines drawn through the Ural Mountains and Caucasus so that Geographers could break part their workload into two sections. These lines do not mean anything, and have no cultural, ethnic or political significance. Slavic people of identical culture and genes live on both sides of the Ural Mountains, yet one group lives in 'Asia' and the other in 'Europe'. Europe is a clutural sphere without any lines or borders. Another thing you failed to do is answer the most important question I asked in my last post, the one on which your entire argument balances. "How do you define European??" You keep on saying that we are "offending" Europeans be classing ourselves among them, but you never give your personal opinion on what Europeans are. Are the Roma people European, despite migrating out of north India during the middle ages. How about Ashkenazi Jews? Crimean Tartars, Eastern Kazakhs? They both live in Europe. You cant focus your argument on a adjective you refuse to define. I will keep asking you until you give me a precise definition. Unless you can give me one, don't even bother answering. In case you did not see it the first time, again "How do you define European??"

The Myotis 19:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

      • Your request brings up the point of it all, It's not about what *I* think Europe is or is not or what you think. It is about serving the truth, I have cited a preponderance of the evidence from academic and scholarly works, which has been met with countering personal and subjected points of view, which correct me if I am wrong is not the objective of this site.--Caligvla 19:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
We’ve had strikingly similar discussions on talk:Europe and talk:Georgia (country). In all cases those who put Armenian and Georgian “European” identities under question are politically motivated. Armenians identify themselves as European, and their self-definition is the most important factor to consider. This is definitely a legitimate POV as exactly the qualities and symbols associated with the European identity have played an uttermost role in the formation of the Armenian nation even though the Oriental influences have always been strong. I will never understand what "distortion of the European boundaries" means.--Kober 21:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely Kober, couldn't have said it better myself. It's not just politically motivated, many others are also very ignorant of Georgia and Armenia in general but that is decreasing. I have also seen people make similar attacks against Cyprus. Really pathetic. --Eupator 21:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought I said 'If you can’t give me a definition, don't bother answering'...*sigh*... Let me put it this way, your personal opinions are, of course meaningless, but there are several distinctly different ways to define 'European', and you don’t seem to be using any of them. You must have a specific definition and you must only have one. Academic citations are meaningless unless you define what you are trying to prove. Who knows what definition the Scholars where using? I'll make this easy on you; I will give you multiple choices. A- A person belonging cultural group based in the western reaches of the Eurasian landmass. Armenia would certainly qualify, particularly considering its alphabet and connection with Greece. B- A person residing within the borders, according to one or another definition of the boundaries of Europe. This line usually is drawn somewhere through the Caucasus, often (but not always) including Armenia. C- A person ethnically belonging to one of the northeastern Caucasoid groups. Judging by some of your earlier edits, I suspect you may think this, if you will not argue it. Just pick one.

The Myotis 00:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Bottom line is some people (weasel word I know, but who these people are has been addressed above) consider Armenia (and various other countries) "European" for cultural, historical, religious and other reasons. Ergo, the template and neutral (i.e. doesn't address the issue) formulation stays. Next!--Tekleni 21:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Misplaced Pages community has given user Caligula ample time to make his case, despite his racist outburts. He has failed to change the consensus. As a result this discussion will be archived tomorrow and I will ask for page unprotection. If he attempts any further dusruption of this and associated articles the next RFC will be regarding his conduct.--Eupator 21:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This should remain open until more independent and more objective users have a chance to voice their support or not.

there have yet to be any credible opposions to Caligvla--66.233.115.220 22:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is a non-negotiable policy. As long as there is proof that there are people (and organizations) considering Armenia European, then there's nothing more to discuss. Also, sockpuppetry if frowned upon, but if you insist, be my guest. You're likely to be banned.--Tekleni 22:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
One day is all an RfC gets? That seems hardly fair. There are people and orgs that will do and say anything, we should always defer to the most credible sources. As for Eupator's likely straw man sockpuppet, talk to him about it...--Caligvla 23:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
What on earth are you talking about, Caligvla? Are you attempting to accuse Eupator of having a sockpuppet in order to divert attention from your own? -- Clevelander 23:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Its very interesting. Armenia which has unparallel wealth of civilization, history, culture and traditions is denied of European association. Caligvla, where do you have prove that Italians are European? Or Germans? According to Julius Ceaser, Germans were barbarous tribes while Armenians reached new heights of cultural advances of their kingdom. Instead of accusing others of sockpuppetry and hinting of some pan-Turkist agenda on Armenia (we have seen such many times here), please explain in details what differentiates Italians and Armenians in terms of being part of European family. After reading Armenian history and studying their culture (also traveling in Armenia) I can assure you that you would not find more European civilization (which has contributed tremendously to the world in the fields of literature, religion, arts, etc) than of Armenia. If Turks (who are indeed a central asian people leaving on Byzantine/Armeno-Georgian lands) being considered as future candidates of EU, what on earth makes you presume that Armenians should be otherwise? This claim has no logic, therefore it should be ignored. Ldingley 14:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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