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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ernham (talk | contribs) at 01:21, 17 October 2006 (→Regarding reversions made on [] [] to []). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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NPA

Pls refrain form calling Ian a bigot. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Who are you? Some kind of mod or something? He is a bigot, im afraid, as nothing else explains his hypocritical/lieing actions, behavior I just proved.

I am an administrator. And stop claiming bogus vandalism on the part of Bretonbanquet.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I have my terminology wrong, I guess. Upon reading the interpretation used here, indeed I do. I'm not sure how to describe such behavior than, perhaps annoying or illogical. So, mister moderator, has there been any rulings made on the usage of words such as "best" and "greatest" on things such as sports stars, as it seems to be the crux of the recent issue involving some F-1 racing legends.Ernham 04:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I try and be as dry as possible. If you go to my userpage you can see I have written a lot of sport bios and they are all very dry. Mainly just a chronological account and some explanation of some statistics. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 04:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

When I came across the section on schumacher, I actually thought it was fairly well done. But then I looked at some of the other legends of F-1 racing, and all of them had opening paragraphs that included a line similar to "considered by many the greatest driver blah, blah". So I added essentially that exact line to schumacher's first paragraph and was then attacked for it supposedly being "POV", yet these same people claim that the other legendary drivers, all of which are inferior to schumacher statistically, claims of "greatness" are NPOV! It's infuriating. Ernham 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have no problem with removing similar meaningless claims from other articles. -- Ian Dalziel 10:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Then why the hell did you rever my changes to 2-3 of the people where I merely clipped out the sentence that made those claims. Then even on your reversion you claim that the claim made in the article was actually NPOV! How quickly you change your tune after I busted you for being so "editorially dishonest".Ernham 10:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have made NO changes to your edits in those other articles. -- Ian Dalziel 10:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That was not the point, Ian. The point was you were reverting me for trying to remove the exact same claims on other F-1 drivers websites while you were doing the exact opposite on the Schumacher page.Ernham 04:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

POV

I'd just happened to see POV and so removed it and removed no content, but now you've reverted. "greatness" when applied to define a competitor of any sport tends to be subjective and debatable. On top of that, using superlative means the phrasing should bring it close to fact and backed by acceptance and evidence. Otherwise one is not doing justice to the article. From the discussion above, i gather that you're already in an edit war on this. Not planning to join in myself :-)

On this, yeah if you've seen POV in past drivers pages, the right thing to do is to remove it and not balance the situation by matching it for this is an encyclopedia rather than a set of tribute pages for f1 drivers :) In this regard i suppose replacing the sentence

By the numbers, he is the greatest, most successful Formula One driver ever

with

He is arguably the most successful Formula One driver ever.

would be more apt, as it'd be able to support the claim factually as well as highlight the magnitude of achievement.

You might not be entirely wrong when you argue

If you have the greatest record for just about everything, it makes you the greatest.

The problem however is the phrase greatest record. A more correct yet undiluted sentence would be

If you hold the record for just about everything, it makes you the most successful.

--Su30 08:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What a bunch of nonsense. "successful" is just as subjective, with need to be qualified, as "great". Stefi Graf made only like 20 million dollars for her whole tennis carrer. Now modern tennis players make 20 million by the time they have only 5-6 grandslams under their belt. Now when you say successful tennis player, should the answer be the modern player that won far fewer games/granslams but actual won more money? Total circular logic with this since everything would need to be narrowly defined that articls would be nothing but minutia. Sorry. The British and South Americans will just ahve to sulk about the fact the greatest F-1 driver to date was German. That's the real issue here. Nothing but a bunch of jingoist nonsense.

You are mixing two different English words, with very different meanings: successful and great. Schumacher is the most successfull (verifiable fact), but that alone doesn't make him the greatest (unverifiable). What is verifiable is the perception of people about a person, that's why in Juan Manuel Fangio it reads considered by many to be the greatest racing driver in Formula One history; that is also a verifiable fact. Mariano(t/c) 10:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

\

I've destroyed the argument with logic. You've whined at me with non-sequiturs. Come back with logic or go away. Successful and great are equally subjective and ambiguous.Ernham 10:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I trully don't follow you. You are the one saying that Schumacher is the best because he won the most championships and so on. This is not subjective, he won 7, the others less, he won more, he is more successful in winning F1 championships than any other driver. I really don't understand your logic nor what do you mean with "I've destroyed the argument with logic". Greatt, in the sence of being the best driver is subjective; you could ask yoursefl how yould Schumacher do with another car, how would have Fangio done in F1 had he born 40 years later, thus it is subjective. On the other hand people's perception can be sourced. Mariano(t/c) 10:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not explaining it again. It's very, very simple logic. You yourself just qualified successful in order to use it, you said "he is more successful***in winning***...." You understand now? We could go through and say he had the greatest amount of X, the greatest amount of Y, the greatest time in this, that, these and those. But that is the ridiculous minutia I was talking about. The reality is, he is in the #1 spot on almost every measurement that is used to judge performance in his sport. That is near universal greatnes, period. No one else has achieved such even in their own era. Schumacher has simply dominated the sport like no one ever has and probably never will. That's reality. I'm not dancing around the truth just to save the egos of some jingoist bigots, sorry.

Ernham, I dont want to delve into the pointless question of somebody being german/british. With the word meaning you've to see the context too.. atleast most people do. "successful" applied to a sportsperson is rather concrete. Your argument is based on your own (rather wrong) assumption of success being related with prize money.. Sporting success is measured in titles/wins. Fangio was the most successful until Schumacher passed him.. One say that there is no POV there, and mind you he might say that knowing the championships in 02, 04 can hardly count on merit even given the kind of peculiar sport f1 is.. But still he say that attribute to his sporting success.. If you dont take it, try saying michael was the most successful f1 driver and provide sufficient references.. You wont find ppl removing off those.. nyway without reason there is no collaboration.. and with the flaming i guess, an IP editor will be able to solve this better.. --Su30 10:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, The following comments from Marianocecowski explains better

You are mixing two different English words, with very different meanings: successful and great. Schumacher is the most successfull (verifiable fact), but that alone doesn't make him the greatest (unverifiable). What is verifiable is the perception of people about a person, that's why in Juan Manuel Fangio it reads considered by many to be the greatest racing driver in Formula One history; that is also a verifiable fact. Mariano(t/c) 10:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

--Su30 10:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice

There are rules against reverting an article more than 3 times in 24 hours (see:WP:3RR). Violating such rules might lead to blocking. Also, please be civil in your edits and avoid personal attacks. Mariano(t/c) 10:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we need an admin/moderator to deal with this then. Limiting reversion just lets someone use multiple ISPs to revert all day long. A very poor choice of rules IMO.

Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. -- Ian Dalziel 11:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And I plan to. I don't have a lot of patience when it comes to dealing with people that will not debate/discuss rationally and logically. It is unlike me to resolve to ad hominem, but that s the ony place i could go for a reason that some people would be so dishonest and hypocritical in their attempts to defame and/or diminish someone else only to build up their own ego in some way, by proxy or through a fellowcountry man or whatnot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Please, stop being agressive in your answers, using words such as dishonest and hypocritical can be considered a personal attack, specially when we are trying to be compehensive with you. Have you considered you might not be right if more than one user is trying to reason with you? Mariano(t/c) 11:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Statetments are not persons; de facto, they can never be "personally" attacked. I tire of these whiny exchanges. Good-bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Reported on WP:AN/3RR. -- Ian Dalziel 13:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You sound like a little child. Why don't you switch back to your other IP(s) and revert my revert again? Unlike you, I'm not resolving dishonesty and foul play. You and your ilk are in the wrong, and I'm not going to put up with bigotry and intellectual dishonesty if I have any say in it.

I have never made any edits other than under my own User Id. If you are interested in intellectual honesty why won't you discuss your edits instead of resorting to personal abuse? -- Ian Dalziel 13:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

ahhh, yes. I'm going to believe the guy who claims that calling Fangio and several other F-1 racing legends as "the greatest" is NPOV, but doing the same for Schumacher, the only guy that has been PROVEN to be the greatest driver, is somehow POV. Get your ridiculous shenanigans out of here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

As I stated above : "I have no problem with removing similar meaningless claims from other articles". I think any statement that one driver is greater than another of a different era is pointless cruft. I do think "considered by many" is more acceptable than presenting it as a statement of fact, but I'd sooner see all the articles without any such assertion. Please quote any such "quote" from me? These accusations are not only deeply offensive, but you seem to be making them up as you go along. -- Ian Dalziel 13:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, one of the removals of 'greatest' (12:56 today) came from me (user:4u1e) not from Ian. I'm editing from someone else's terminal at present, so I can't log in (my password is stored elsewhere). My logic is the same as everyone else's - 'success' is measurable in concrete achievements (wins, points), 'greatness' includes 'influence' 'legacy', 'fame' and many other such nebulous concepts. Your observation that several other drivers' articles say that they are 'greatest' (Fangio, Senna are I guess the major candidates) rather undermines the argument that anyone can be declare unequivocally 'greatest'. Cheers. 4u1e

Can you succeed at being great at something? Indeed. Uh-oh. Major logic complication here. The problem results from the both being eaully ambiguous and dependant on being qualified to be completely understood and debated. In this case, we are looking at "the greatest driver". Using statistics and the standard measures by which greatness is gauged in F-1, it become rather elementary in mathematically proving who the greatest is. it's been done, at least twice now: BBC sports and christopher Hilton(well-known biographer of racing legends). The answer was the same for both: Schumacher. The reality is, though, you guys just don't like the answer.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Please sign your answers. You seam not to understand the difference between success and greatness; perhaps that's the root of the hole problem. Nobody denies that Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver, that is a fact. Saying that he is the greatest is subjective. Finally, saying that people consider a driver to be the best is not subjective if it can be sourced, in the best case with a general poll or equivalent. Mariano(t/c) 13:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What are "the standard measures by which greatness is gauged in F-1"? I don't believe there is any such thing - many consider Stirling Moss, who never won a championship, to be the greatest ever. -- Ian Dalziel 14:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If you don't know the standard measures by which drivers are gauged in F-1 racing, what the hell are you even doing editing F-1 related wikies?? Ridiculous. essentially no one thinks Stirling was the greatest ever, not even the biased as always English public. Even this BBC poll shows it(Schumacher first, Senna second, just like every poll I've ever seen on the matter): http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3168114.stm?display=1

Ernham 14:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Standard measures by which *greatness* is gauged? I don't think so. -- Ian Dalziel 14:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Fastest laps, pole positions, passing ability, wind/rain driving ability, wins/placing, and many more. Michael Jordan is agreed by most to have been the greatest basketball player of his era, but he was not the best three point shorter, nor the best passer or shot blocker. But he was sitll the greatest. In the case of Schumacher, he dominates almost every stat there is. Period. The fans(polls) say Schumacher was/is the best and tbe statistics back them up. It doesn't get any more solid of a lock on being called the "greatest" than that. Now stop with your nonesense, all of you. Grow up. Ernham 14:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You still don't get the point. We are not trying to define who is the best pilot, that would be subjective. Yet it is undeniable that some people consider Fangio as the greatest, while others consider Senna, and some others Schumacher. Mariano(t/c) 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

I have blocked you for 24 hours for personal attacks and going over the 3 revert rule as well as general edit warring. When you return please discuss any proposed changes on the relevant talk pages in a calm and civil manner. Thank you. JoshuaZ 15:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

there is no speaking in a civil manner with people that have no understanding of basic logic and proceed to repeatedly lie and be bigots. Nice to see you are so even handed, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ernham (talk • contribs)

Michael Schumacher

You cannot say Michael Schumacher is solely responsible for turning Ferrari around. I've provided a reference but it shouldn't be needed. I'm happy to say that Ferrari couldn't have done it without Schumacher but any reasonable person would admit that its rediculous to say that without Brawn's tactical brain and Byrne's design Schumacher could have been so successful. Just because its a Schumacher article doesn't mean you can't mention this important fact. Mark83 14:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The statement that "schumacher is often credited with turning ferrari around" does not at all insinuate that Schumacher was the sole reason for ferrari turning into a winning team. I'm sorry you have a problem with reality and do not understand English, logic, and/or reality. Please stop your vandalization of the Schumacher wiki.

Yes it does. Your personal attacks and the other conversations on your talk page speak volumes about your credibility. Mark83 14:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I make no personal attacks, only logically assumptions. And I won't tolerate the vanadlism of living persons. Ernham 14:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To prove my grasp of English, which you argued I don't understand - The above should read "logical assumptions" and "vandalism". "Most winning" is bad grammar and I cannot revert it due to the 3RR (I believe you're familiar with it)! What exactly is your objection to saying that as well as Schumacher being an excellent driver Ferrari's success was down to his team as well, particularly Brawn's pit wall strategy and the design of the car. As impressive a man as he is I don't think he has a degree in engineering. I did exactly what is expected of a good editor, I provided a statement, with a reference and you reverted to your own version simply out of intransigence. You will not find a single other editor who would describe my edits as vandalism. Mark83 14:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

If you ahd introduced your "spin" on the matter before i fixed the ridiculous skeleton of a sub-section that was there previously, then perhaps I'd be less adversarial. But your attmpt currently seems to be little more than to water down Schuamcher's accomplishments, as opposed to any attempt to make the wiki better or what have you. In reality, the wiki is about schuamcher and the statement I said is true. Your statement about the others, especially about todt is also true, but it belongs in the wikis for each of those individuals. Again, this is michael schumacher's wiki. Your addition comes ever so close to the line of superfluity in a wiki that already goes to great lengths to diminsh Schuamcher's accomplishments. and yes, *I* describe your edits as vandalism because you have a record continuing to deface the wiki of a living person, being completely ignorant of the evolution of the article and merely in an attempt to defame schumacher through various means.(stop correcting your damn spelling mistakes so i can respond, too. Yes, I know you can't spell very well.) Ernham 15:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't correct a spelling mistake, I added another sentence to my comment. There is nothing wrong with my spelling. There is something wrong with you losing your temper and continuing personal attacks. Mark83 15:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

in any event, I'm done talking with you on my talk page. This should have been brought up on the Schumacher page. Present your arguemts there formally.Ernham 15:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You wrote "I actually don't mind this version, but "one of" needs to go" - then why did you waste both our time by arguing? Mark83 15:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Something called compromise. Get out of my talk page alreadyErnham 16:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you know the meaning of the word compromise. You stubbornly reverted for over two hours and it was only when a third party agreed with me that you suddenly "compromised". You went from describing my contribution as "close to the line of superfluity" to "I actually don't mind this version". Mark83 20:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Intelligence Quotient

Fine, but you will see that what you count as my first revert is in fact an edit. And you have done just as many, so if I get my editing rights revoked for some time, so will you. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.--Ramdrake 18:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edit was partial reversion of material I wrote, which makes it a reversion. Ernham 04:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, there are a few things you seem to have some trouble grasping:

1)An edit that removes part of your addition and rephrases another part is *NOT* a revert, unless it brings the article back verbatim to some previous version (any version). It's just an edit.

2)An edit done in good faith, even in the midst of a revert war, is *NEVER* vandalism. It can be revert warring, but cannot be called vandalism, just because the edits undo one of your edits and you think it's wrong. I would suggest you make more efforts in assuming good faith

3)In your denunciation of my actions at WP:AN/3RR, the admin *did* ask you to supply diffs, as opposed to versions. After 10 days, you failed to supply the requested diffs, so the case was closed. It was not dereliction of duty on the part of the admin, but just your failure to respond which caused the case to fail to be even considered on its merits.

4)That's just a suggestion, but I think your attitude could gain in being less bellicose than it is now, or sooner or later, you might find yourself blocked from Misplaced Pages editing for longer and longer stretches. You have already garnered 3 block in just over a month; that's a considerable amount.

That being said, that's all I had as comments. Good day!--Ramdrake 13:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Other than my first block, the rest have been total bull, by an admin that shouldn't even be the admin at a messageboard let alone at wikipedia, where there is much more need to be free of bias. Almost everything you said is wrong. Obviously you never bothered to read what a reversion actually is. If i write " Peanuts are good food. Everyone should have a cup of peantus day" And you remove "peanuts are good food", leaving the other. You have reverted the material partially. It's still a reversion. This is a very simple logical deduction from the rule stating that the reversion does not have to be the same material. If it were the case as you suggest, there would be no need for that stipulation. Vandalism is vandalism. I know exactly what it is. And what the hell am I supposed to make of the garbage he spat out? Not diffs? Judging from his own talk page it seems as if he expects everyone to be an admin themselves to even deal with him on any level, lingo or otherwise. He never responded to me in any capacity whatsoever.Ernham 13:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Your personal attacks on Intelligence quotient

Regarding your comments made on Intelligence quotient:

Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. --Ramdrake 22:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR rule report

Hi. The reason your edit to the 3RR rule page didn't appear was you added it to the "Copy-paste-edit this for a new report" section at the bottom of the page. I've tidied it up for you. Please calm down, I see you've got another warning for personal attacks and you've just said "sign your name or stay out of my talk" in an edit summary. There is no justification for that. You've been known to forget to add your signature, it's a simple mistake. Mark83 23:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It was quite obvious the person who wrote was trying to sound like they had some kind of authority here at wikipedia. I don't take kindly to people trying to push me around. It wasn't signed to maintain some kind of msytery to it. Thanks, btw.Ernham 23:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

1) It was signed all of 3 minutes after leaving the message and 2) you removed the warning after it was signed. So your explanation doesn't hold, as I will refrain from qualifying it any further. And to boot, the message was a standard boilerplate warning, not intended to impress anyone. Nobody here is trying to push you around, but they may be tempted to push back when you shove them - as you've done today.--Ramdrake 23:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

This guy actually thinks me calling a bunch of op-ed sounding studies "trash" is a personal attack. Maybe i could see that if you wrote them all...heh. Just keep digging yourself deeper, Ramdrake Ernham 23:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Actually, calling those studies "trash" is merely uncivil. Calling my neuroscience Ph.D. a degree in BS is a personal attack.--Ramdrake 23:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. I clarified immediately what that meant. Figured you wouldn't get the sarcasm. Then you claimed calling your trash "studies" trash was a personal attack. Oh, bother. There I go again.Ernham 00:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Your reversal of personal attacks and uncivility at Intelligence quotient

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism, and if you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you. --Ramdrake 03:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Incivility

I've blocked you for 3h for incivility William M. Connolley 07:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Please state, for the record, specific instance of supposed "incivility". Further, you might want to respond to the 3RR complaint i filed against use Ramdrake, the one it seems you handled nearly as flippantly as this instance of "incivility".Ernham 19:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for what specific instance William M. Connolley blocked you, but below are a few instances. What aren't personal attacks are certainly uncivil.

• - "Satire" is not an acceptable excuse.
• (edit summary)
• Directed at me: "stop correcting your damn spelling mistakes so i can respond, too. Yes, I know you can't spell very well.)"
• Directed at me: "I'm sorry you have a problem with reality and do not understand English, logic, and/or reality."
• (edit summary)
• (edit summary)

Another issue; Removing other people's comments and then criticising others for removing your comments (even when they are acting according to Misplaced Pages policy. Mark83 20:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

wow, I have a wiki stalker. hate schumacher and the truth that much, huh? I did not ask for your opinion. I was speaking with the adminstrator. Do not be so rude. also about your comment that I removed your comments here. That's not true. i responded to the first comment you left and then you added more to your comment while i was answering the first comment. somehow the one that got saved was my original responce to the comment before you added additional material, the little bit that no one would consider your actions vandalism or what not. And like I said, this does not belong on my talk page; it belongs on the respective page, particularly in that incident. Find a new hobby, too. Ernham 20:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Another personal attack for the list! You asked the question, I was just trying to help out. As for "hating" Schumacher, you're confusing "hate" with the aim of NPOV. As for removing my comment due to an edit conflict - You're right, I did add that after the original comment. However when such a situaton arises the sofware draws it to your attention "someone has edited this page since..." You must have chosen not to save my comment. And me refuting the allegation of vandalism very much belonged on your talk page. Stop the personal attacks and I'll pay less attention. Regards. Mark83 20:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Tennis Masters Madrid

There is no need to place reference to where a tournament used to be held in Roger Federer's article. The Stuttgart refernce beleings in the Tennis Masters Madrid article, not in Roger Federer's!

No, it's rather important actually because of possible court differences for posterity.Ernham 23:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Jim Clark

Hello. Just some friendly advice. I know that the edits by the socks are very annoying, but please don't stoop to their level by allowing them to bait you into making potentially innapropriate edit summaries. Thanks --After Midnight 03:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya, just adding a bit of humor. Nothing else works with that guy, it seems.Ernham 03:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Michael Schumacher

Regarding this edit: Please do not call other editors vandals when they have not vandalized. This is considered a personal attack. If you continue to personally attack other editors, you will be blocked. Thank you.--§hanel 04:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

He did in fact vandalize the page. He repeatedly clipped out huge sections of important information, giving no explanation for doing so Ernham 04:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Michael Schumacher

By your own edit summary you admit that the sentence suggests Schumacher is somehow responsible for the number of German drivers in F1. "It's a statement of fact that supports the position that Schumacher popularized the sport in Germany" While I agree 110% that Schumacher is responsible for the popularity of F1 in Germany, I don't agree with the suggestion that he is in some way responsible for the number of German drivers in F1. Might I draw your attention to the fact that you have removed the information three times. Also despite countless requests to stop personal attacks you have persisted and attacked me (here) and calling for another user to be banned constitutes a personal attack (). Mark83 23:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, you again. Do you actually think that there is no correlation between the popularity of a sport in a given country and the amount of participation of that sport that country partakes in? Of course they are correlated, and no sane person would debate such. And I didn't call for him to be banned, I said --I-- think he should be banned. I'm beginning to think you should be, too. Call the thought police. btw, Removing cited info and/or cites while giving no reason is in fact vandalism, pal. Ernham 23:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please stop calling me a vandal. Each of my edits had a detailed edit summary. I did not remove cited information - Schumacher's role in the number of other German drivers is not cited at present. And I note you accused me of violating the three revert rule in one of your edit summaries. In removed it once as a normal edit. You then removed it four times, me three. Mark83 09:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Did three. One was repairing your overt vandalism. Try reading cites in the future, preferably before you delete them. Oh, and wiki-stalking is rather rude. Ernham 11:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll ignore the last sentence. Please stop calling me a vandal. Vandalism is defined as "any addition, deletion, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Misplaced Pages." I object in the strongest possible terms to any suggestion that I have vandalised any page. Please consider withdrawing your many remarks (talk page and edit summaries) calling me a vandal. The cite was in the wrong place. It backs up the "fringe sport" sentence but does not back up the assertion that R. Schumacher and Heidfeld are in F1 because of Schumacher's success. You reverted four times and the issue has already been raised by another editor at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Mark83 12:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah right. You remove a cite and then say you thought the cite was for something else, yet you ask for the very cite for the "something else" later in the edit history. When the ruse is up, suddenly you are ignorant of everything you just did. Your edits and summaries, taken in context, clearly detail your only interest was in messing up the wikiErnham 12:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You have refused to withdraw the comments and continued to accuse me of vandalism and bad faith. You tell people in edit summaries to take their issues to talk pages and then abuse them. Therefore I see no reason for continuing the discussion. Mark83 12:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should mention the talk page, as we had a little discussion on the whole popularity thing. For some odd reason you felt adamant enough to vandalize that portion of the wiki, yet not defend your position in the talk forum? Assuming your bumbling edits were indeed in "good faith", it doesn't quite square, does it? Your actions, and lack thereof, clearly demonstrate you have little desire to make that wiki any better, quite the contrary, it seems. Ernham 12:34, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Associated Press

My apologies - you are correct, although I'm not sure AP is really the most authoritative source regarding the FIA's intentions. Please try and be polite when editing Misplaced Pages though - we're all (well, mostly all!) trying to improve the articles. Cheers. 4u1e.

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Well, that's twice now that you have grossly abused your powers, and, at the very same time, been derelict in your duties as an admin.Ernham 02:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

First, my apologies for having to put this bit of a screed here, but unfortunately it seems my only resolve, sans posting this on the admin notice board, which I'm not even sure is the proper route -- or if there even is a proper route for that matter(I will post it there as well). According to what I've read, only other administrators keep a proverbial "eye on each other", so to speak. As it is, William M. Connolley has repeatedly abused his powers as an admin, as well as being completely derelict in his duty of using those very same powers. The first incident I had with William M. Connolley involved a 3RRV report I had filed on Ramdrake, who had broken the 3RR. In fact, he had broken it twice in as many hours. The reverts were rather obvious and there was no confusion over whether or not he made the reverts, yet William M. Connolley chose not to enforce the wikipedia rules for either infraction. Further, he actually blocks me for several hours on the grounds of "incivility". He explains nothing, discusses nothing. His comments were incredibly terse, his actions equally arbitrary. The supposed "incivility" I can only guess was related to a comment where I had sarcastically inferred that it was very odd that someone with a PhD in biological science would repeatedly cite anthropologists and other "social scientists" on matters that were completely in the domain of biological science itself! Very, very odd indeed, almost comically so. I immediately clarified the statement in case it was taken wrongly, and Ramdrake himself said he had not taken offense to that comment; instead, he had taken offense to the fact that I called several of his cites "garbage studies that were written like op-ed pieces"(some of them weren't even studies, but were in fact opinion pieces). Ramdrake later changes his mind, however, and cares more about the sarcastic commnet I made about his selection of studies. In any event, Ramdrake violates the 3RR --twice-- but is not punished, and I get my editing priviliges suspended for calling op-ed pieces "trash/garbage". In a more recent encounter with William M. Connolley, we had a user vandalize, whether intentionally or not(you must forgive me: I am not a mind reader), the Michael Schumacher wiki. I reverted three times, and repaired the overt vandalism once. Another admin trying to stem the resultant edit war created a talk page section regarding the situation, but, curiously, Mark83 refused to take part, despite the fact he was so adamant about the issue to begin with that it had driven him to vanadlize the page, later claiming his vandalism was the result of ignorance, not maliciousness. Mark83 has a history of vandalizing that schumacher wiki, however, so it was hardly a shock to me he would be back at his old tricks. Apparently, he had not bothered to read the cites he was busy deleting -- go figure. Then he demands to see the cites when he had just got done deleting the very cite he was clamoring for! Then I get a message on my talk page from Mark83, a "neener-neener"-like message detailing that I had been reported on the 3RR board. Interestingly, the person reporting me was not Mark83, but was instead Muchness, someone with absolutely no connection to the Michael Schumacher wiki. He has never contributed to the wiki as far as I can see. The net result of this indcident? --I-- got suspended, for an entire 24 hours, too. On top of that, Mark83, the only one that actually violated the 3RR, received no punishment. Apparently, William M. Connolley isn't quite sure if reverting four times vioated the 3RR. He is sure, however, that reverting 3 times is. Ridiculous. This is twice in a row William M. Connolley has been derelict in his duties as an admin and twice he has abused his powers. I'm at a loss in rationalizing the behavior of William M. Connolley, but it makes me very curious if he has had such a history with other persons. I have datailed these events purely for posteriy, and I surely hope this gross negligence and misuse of power is not at all representative of his normal admin functions, as I'd hope wikipedia would have no room for such persons as administrators.Ernham 05:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding reversions made on October 13 2006 to Michael_Schumacher

Ernham (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

regarding the edits in question, I did not make 4 reverts. I fixed a vandlization attempt and reverted 3 times, not 4. Was it vanadlism? The user deleted a vital cite for a paragraph, giving no reason for the deletion of the cite. Immediately after, he then asks for the very cite he himself deleted and then tried to pretend like it didn't exist. he has a history of similar vandal-like shenanigans

Decline reason:

Block has already expired. -- Rich Farmbrough, 20:32 14 October 2006 (GMT). 20:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Request for comment

I've asked the Misplaced Pages community to comment on your edits, in particular what have been judged by several users to be personal attacks. You may want to respond to this RFC at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Ernham. Mark83 15:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Why I'm not the most friendly editor

You get what you give. After being repeatedly abused by biased adminstrators, I have little compunction to act any other way. Just to give an example of the wanton abuse, I will step by step demonstrate a recent event regarding Mark83. Sadly for wikipedia, this has been more the rule than the exception.

I had originally added new material to the Michael Schumacher wiki:

"Schumacher is credited with popularising Formula One in Germany, where it had little following and was generally considered a fringe sport. Today, not only is the sport itself much more popular in Germany, but three of the current top ten drivers in the drivers' championship are German: more than any other nationality."

a cite was included to an article that completely substantiated the the increase in general popularity in Germany. Then Mark83 changed it to this:

"Schumacher is credited with popularizing Formula One in Germany, where it had little following and was generally considered a fringe sport."

So he reverts most of what I wrote, which is one thing, but the main problem I had was that he didn't bother to read the cite he removed. The cite he removed substantiated at least partially the paragraph; the other part of the paragraph did not really require a cite as it's so easily verifiable. In short, he vandalized the wiki. As per the definition of wiki-vandalism:

. . .defined as changing a wiki in a way that is intentionally disruptive or destructive. There are four generally acknowledged types of vandalism: deletion of legitimate information . . .

It then becomes a bit of a revert war. I stopped at three, knowing at least one of my edits was a legitmate rectification of what was clearly vandalous behavior. Mark83, however, goes over the limit. Reverting a total of four times.

The admin dealing with the situation says this in the admin board dealing with the supposed 3RRV: "Definitely 3RR from E; I don't see any vandalism. M has 4 identical edits but its not clear the first is a rv. 24h for E."

Note that I "definitely" violated the 3RR. Fixing 1-2 overt vanadlism attempts and reverting 2-3 times somehow constituted 4 reverts -- definitely. Uh, huh. He doesn't see any vandalism? Hmmm? Has he ever bothered to read the edit exchange, the wiki definition of vanadlism, or both? He sees "4 identical edits" which is another way of saying Mark83 violated 3RR, but he takes no action. Apparently he has never read the rules on what a reversion actually is. As I've stated before, it's a simple logical deduction that if the rule stipulates "the reversions in a 3RRV do not have to be of the same material" that a partial reversion is still a reversion nonetheless. I dare say there is a tremendous bias in dealing with me or there is an equally tremendous vacuum of knowledge of the rules that this admin has exhibited. And this is not the first time. Such scenarios have become the rule here for me, as opposed to the exception. Now you now why my tact is often in abeyance. It simply doesn't matter what I do here. It's a kangaroo court through and through, on almost every level I've seenErnham 23:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

revert 1/vandalism attempt1 by Mark83 revert 2/vandalism attempt 2. He gets funny here and demands the very cite he deletes revert 3 revert 4

Why I'm not the most friendly editor, part two

Not more than a few weeks ago, I had an incident with Ramdrake. I made a caveat-like paragraph regarding the arguments raised by Stephen J. Gould in Mismeasure of Man. Basically, modern science, by useage of the MRI, has completely debunked all of the arguments Gould had proposed in relation to the correlations between brain size and race, IQ and brain size, and thus IQ and race, along with citing several studies that throughly demonstrated it. Ramdrake deleted most of it, and rewrote a section of it. An edit war ensued. Ramdrake violates the 3RR. Then he has the temerity to revert my comments in the discussion section! FIVE times no less! Twice he clearly broke the 3RR (as a side note there should be some rules against editing other users' comments in the talk pages). The talk page was basically angry screeds written by Ramdrake, who seemed to have no interest in debating the contentious material actually involved in the edit war. No. Instead, he wanted to totally debate about all the various aspects in general regarding IQ-- race--brain size. He wanted to argue, basically, just argue. At one point he brags that he has PhD in a biological science(in neuroscience no less), right after saying that filling lead shot in a cranium will give you nearly as accurate a measurement of brain size as an MRI! A biologist with a PhD in Neuroscience claims this, despite the fact that the amount of cerebral-spinal fluid varies to a much greater degree than brain size does! A Neuroscientist would know that;in fact, he would die laughing to death after reading that comment. After that ridiculous comment, Ramdrake proceeds to provide a dozen or so cites. The cites are all related to those aforementioned general issues, but they are not at all related to the contentious matters in the edit war. Let me charcterize the actual studies: 100% were irrelevant, 50%-75% of them were actually op-ed pieces of zero worth even if they weren't already irrelevant. I stated that the cites were garbage and were written like op-ed pieces. I then sarcastically inferred how odd it was that someone with a degree in biological science would resolve to posting a bunch of op-ed pieces from social scientists when the matters being debated in the edit war were entirely in the domain of biological science. Again, he claims he has a PhD in Neuroscience. The comment I made was something like "yeah, right. You have a degree in BS and you continue to cite garbage op-ed pieces by social scientists? Uh huh." He claims it was a personal attack, and upon reading the first part, I thought it was related to my the phrase "degree in BS" comment, so I immediately corrected any possible misinterpretation and clearly stated what I meant in my sarcastic remark. He says that wasn't what he took offense to. No. He took offense to the fact that I called his irrelevant, op-ed, social scientist cites as "garbage". I report him for violating the 3RR, which he did twice. The result? I'm the one that gets my editing privileges suspended, on the grounds of supposed "incivility". The double violator of the 3RR goes scot free. This is the exact same admin that dealt with the above case in "Why I'm not the most friendly editor(part one above)".Ernham 00:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Diffs from the wiki violation of 3RR by Ramdrake: This is what I originally added, with cites elucidating the position semi-concurrently in talk Revert 1 :Ramdrake rewrites a portion and reverts the majority. revert 2 revert 3 revert 4

Diffs from the talk page violation of 3RR by Ramdrake(noting the summaries is important here, as this involves the supposed personal attack.Read above text regarding this matter to understand why it was made. Lead shot, indeed): ramdrake's first reversion of my comment in the talk page revert 2 revert 3 revert 4

When I originally edited your addition to the article, that was because even though several scientists advance a relationship from race to brain size and brain size to IQ (nobody contests the claims have been made), several more have conducted studies that contradict those findings. Thus, they are a matter of dispute, and not incontrovertible fact as you seemed to present them. Second, as to my quoting psychologists and anthropologists to question the relationship, it's simply that the subject is usually called "race and intelligence". Field experts on race are usually anthropologists and geneticists, and experts on intelligence are usually psychologists and psychometricians, so their opinion is more than germane to the subject. Lastly, there is already an article in Misplaced Pages on Race and Intelligence and as far as I can tell, that was where the comments I removed from your addition belonged, as I think I made clear in my edit summary and I even tried to explain on the talk page. That you deciced to ignore the 12 sources I presented to you and chose to stick to the single viewpoint of the one article you quoted to me is your choice. I made an honest effort to try to explain the reasons for my viewpoint, ad instead of discussing calmly, you escalated this into a revert war, complete with uncivil remarks (where I come from, "BS" does not mean biological science, and yes we speak English). I would suggest that next time you disagree with someone, assume you're both working in good faith, sit down with them and discuss why your opinions differ. That is the basis of compromise-making.--Ramdrake 22:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Why I am not the most friendly editor, part three

When I first started poking around wikipedia with the intention of possibly registrring and becoming an editor, one of the first things that struck me was the Formula One pages. I had read the Michael Schumacher page, and while I thought it was fairly well done, after reading a handful of other notable Formula One drivers I noticed several interesting differences. All of them are not particularly germane for this, nor would detailing all of them be fruitful. I will, however, focus on one notable issue.

I counted over half a dozen different wikis of notable Formula one drivers that had some version of being called "the greatest driver" incorporated in their intro paragraphs. I thought it rather odd that Schumacher did not have a similar comment in his section. Why?

1.He's the only driver the official formula one website lists as being "the greatest" in any capacity.

2. In the biggest poll ever done on Formula one drivers, Schuamcher won by a landslide.

3. He owns almost every record in formula one.

4. BBC mathmematically proved he was the greatest using the standard measures of gauging greatness in formula one.

5. Similarly, an entire book was written mathematically proving, as much as one can with statistics, that no one else has a greater claim to being the "greatest" ever grand prix driver than Schumscher does.

Now, if any formula one driver has any claim whatsoever to the title of "greatest", then, it would be Schumacher. So this was the curiosity. Why was it that drivers, even drivers that had not won a single world drivers' championship their entire career(schumacher has won 7) were being labeled the greatest, yet Schumacher was not in any capacity given the same title?

As a test, I copy and pasted various versions of "the greatest" used in other formula one drivers wikis and put them in the schuamcher wiki. It was like dropping a hefty garbage bag full of blood into a swimming pool of starving sharks. I was repeatedly attacked, accused of this that and the other thing, repeatedly reverted and etc. So, I figured, using the same logic that over a half a dozen editors had used on me, I would go to all of the wikis where the exact same wording was being used to "talk up" other formula one drivers and remove it. It was like dropping TWO hefty garbage bags full of blood into a swimming pool of starving sharks! again I'm routinely attack and reverted. Here's the kicker: the very same editors that were reverting me for including "the greatest" in the schumacher wiki were the very same ones that were later reverting me for changing/removing the EXACT same claims made on other Formula one drivers' wikis! Complete hypocritical madness! I will recount the edits and history of just one of those users, without meaning to single him out specifically, but just to present what was stereotypical case of what half a dozen or so Formula One editors were doing at the time.

I might do a couple, actually, when I have a bit more time. Stopping here for now. As a side note, many of the users involved in the blatant hypocrisy can found above, in the fulminating orgy of my first several sections of this talk page.Ernham 15:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Go on then - post some diffs to prove that I am a bigot and a liar? I'll be interested to see those. -- Ian Dalziel 20:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

wow, a request? So be it.Ernham 02:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

My removal of one of the "greatest" comments on another formula one dirver's page

Ian Dalziel reverts it

but here he was, just hours earlier, reverting the Schumacher "greatest" entry I added

This was about as stereotypical as an example as there is, perhaps only missing even more spurious logic for their overt hypocrisy. About a half a dozen editors did exactly the same things detailed above, from discussion pages to edits/edit summaries to my own talk page. These are persons whom I must deal with on a daily basis when editing the Formula One pages. It seems that for many of them, jingoistic bigotry often supercedes what logical faculties they might have.Ernham 02:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

My objection was to the expression "widely regarded" - to me, that implies a consensus which does not exist. I admit that "rvv" was excessive - I realise now that your edit was in good faith, if misguided, and I apologise for the "v". I have made no objection to subsequent, more moderate statements. I have said in several places that I consider arguments about "the greatest" to be a waste of energy - I have reverted your edits in other places only where you seemed to me to be damaging established articles simply out of spite because you have met disagreement. Most of the comments which you have removed were much less assertive than your original edits.

You have, as far as I can see, produced no evidence to support your allegations of "bigotry" and "lies". To be "jingoistic" about Fangio I think I would have to be Argentinian. I am not - nor am I English, for what it's worth. For pity's sake, calm down and enter into discussion. If someone disagrees with you, the response should be to argue - not to scream and stamp your feet! -- Ian Dalziel 19:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

you are making a poor showing if this is some attempt to save face. i mean, the edits are right there, Ian. And just above on this page you can see I showed you http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/3168114.stm?display=1 . How's that for "widely regarded"? How different is "widely" from "many" which is the only real difference with the fangio you reverted back in? Additionally, if your issue was with the use of "widely", Your edit summary is very interesting that you attached to the your reverion of the "greatest" comment i placed on the schuamcher wiki. Remember what you said? Go look. Maybe you need another memory jogger, eh? You said a bit more than "RVV" How about, "(and also, he is widely regarded as not...). In short, I just can't rationalize your blatant hypocrisy short of those other possibilities.

"he is widely regarded as not" is exactly the same point - that there is disagreement. Is there any chance of your discussing ANYTHING without resorting to personal attacks? -- Ian Dalziel 21:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there

I read your spiel at WP:AN and was wondering if you could provide diffs of said disputes. If you can, and if what you say is true, you could open an RFC against those who broke the 3RR rule and then blocked you. --172.198.40.82 07:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What are diffs, exactly? Ernham 08:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Differences, or diffs for short, show the change of a page between two edits. For instance, this diff shows me posting my message on your talk page. In order to do it, you simply click "history", then pick the two versions you'd like to compare by clicking the little buttons, then copying and pasting the URL you get. If you put it in brackets, you get , and if you put it in brackets, add a space, and type a word, you get this. --172.198.40.82 08:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

ahh, I see. Yes, that should be a rather easy, though requiring a bit of time, feat.Ernham 08:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yup, it's extremely time consuming. However, if you were to gather all the diffs needed, compile them in a report, and make it as articulate as your spiel on the AN, you could bring to attention these admins who abuse their power. If what you say is true, they could be de-sysopped and possibly blocked. --172.198.40.82 08:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, for now i will place them in their respective "why I am not such a friendly editor" sections above, both of which are more thorough explanations of those events i talked about on the admin board.Ernham 08:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

De nada. --172.198.40.82 08:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Relax.

Dude, you are incivil to people. Staying calm will get you a lot further on Misplaced Pages. Remember, people don't usually bother to check your contribs, so they judge you based on the edits they can see, usually to a single page. Keep your temper under control. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 09:37, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have(at least) two more entire chapters of "why i'm not a very friendly editor", and I've only been here a month. I think I've been amazingly civil given the circumstances, less than half of which you are aware of, if that. Ernham 09:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

No. Simply, do not edit war, do not attack others. If you continue in this manner you will be blocked from editing. —Centrx→talk • 18:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, I may well not be aware of everything you have gone through, but being carelessly rude to people, as mentioned to you repeatedly, will simply get you blocked. You wrote "I think I've been amazingly civil given the circumstances". No. Civility is a constant. You are not allowed on Misplaced Pages, or indeed in real life for that matter, to be unpleasant to people because you're feeling hard done by. It's not on. And if you don't learn that, any genuine grievances you have will simply be ignored. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 18:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Ernham, please explain your six consecutive edits on my talkpage, accusing me of slandering you, opening an "administrator" against you, and attempting to smear you. Whose edits were reverts and vandalism? Mine? My first edit was to copyedit Anna of Kashin! Please justify what you said or it's coming down. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 07:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't make any comments toward you, actually. They were all directed at Mark83, who seems to invent reality as he goes.Ernham 07:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind not attacking other editors on my talkpage then? Please, heed my warnings about incivility. You may not like Mark83, but it is your duty as a Wikipedian to remain respectful to him. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 07:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There were no attacks, sorry, only factual accounting of events. Please stop saying I'm invicil, as that's a personal attackErnham 07:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is only a personal attack if you are not actually being incivil. But you are. And I think you've both grasped that and chosen to ignore it, so I'm going to stop replying here anymore. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 14:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So incivility is indeed all just a matter of "POV"? heh. Ernham 15:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it is matter of contravening WP:CIVIL. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 15:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So, let's see here. "incivility is roughly defined as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress." So did you personally target me? Yes. Check! You could have 1) not said anything, which would have not created "greater conflict and stress". 2) stated something without an acusatory tone. Like "hey, you know if you do this or that, these other things might/might not happen" which would have not createda "greater atmosphere of greater conflict and stress."Instead, though, you opted for 3) point your crooked self-righteous finger at me and bark "incivility!!!" Well, I believe you have satisfied all the proper criteria for being incivil yourself, so you know where to point that finger nextErnham 15:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

So you admit you are being incivil then? Dev920 (check out this proposal) 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Nope. I was making the point that it's all POV. Funny, thatErnham 17:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Your continuing misintended edits to the Juan Manuel Fangio article

Schumacher comments

Ideally the relevant schumacher comment to this article is

Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself

As i'd said previously, it is just that you dont like the statement. There is no quoting out of context as you are trying to claim. Otherwise, pls answer why the quoted bbc article's title is Schumi: Fangio was greater than me ?? (Kindly answer the question instead of making statements)

But wikipedia looks to strive hard for reaching a consensus. The same reason i was willing to compromise on the quote to include the statement containing the term personality

Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. ... You can't take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison.

even though it makes the quote too long and that the second part is not really relevant. However to retain it as you've quoted is certainly not the way. Not only is the comments you provided in brackets entirely your own claim, but it is far from an accepted way of quoting.

One can compromise, but only what can be compromised. Inspite of your lack of cooperation to resolve, I still feel that is the way to pursue, as seeking third party intervention, would mean a massive task since IMO it will require reviewing a large number of your distoring edits to multiple articles - Juan Manuel Fangio and Michael Schumacher that I know, and possibly others.. --Su30 16:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Remove them or include the context of which they were given.I can randomly clip out chunks of quotes and claim all sorts of nonsense. Schuamcher was not asked about how he compared himself "in general" or as "a driver" to Fangio. The way I have it is very clear as to context of the question. Ernham 16:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions made on October 16 2006 to 2006_Formula_One_season

The duration of the block is 48 hours. 

Please stop trying to push your POV under guise of BLP.

Nice. Try reading wikipedia's own god damn rules for once. "controversial material that is uncited or poorly cited regarding living persons must IMMEDIATELY BE REMOVED. And such removal does not count towards the 3RR. After this, I'll be emailing every admin I can find. You leave me no choice. You and your blatant disregard for the very rules you were appointed to enforce are a disgrace to wikipedia.Ernham 17:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ernham (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Did not violate the 3RR --AGAIN--. I reverted slanderous statements made regarding a about a living person. The wikipedia rules specifically state regarding such matters:"material that is uncited or poorly cited regarding living persons must IMMEDIATELY BE REMOVED.-- And such removal does not count towards the 3RR.

Decline reason:

As has been suggested to you by a number of editors, you appear to be misreading WP:BLP; those edits don't look like clear-cut slander, to me. Please discuss and consider dispute resolution instead of edit warring, in the future. -- Luna Santin 21:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Looking more and more like "rotten to the core". I'd love to see schumacher sue wikipedia for. See how long you people remain admins then. Your name will included in the emails.Ernham 01:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for unblock

If it was slander, yes you would be justified in exceeding 3 reverts (I think it would fall under "Reverting potentially libellous material"). However neither the cited fact that Alonso was about to go quicker or the difference between "simply made an error" and "insisted he was innocent" is slander. However I'm not going to get involved in saying yes or no to your unblock due to recent events. Mark83 18:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted any instance of slanderous material. They can continue to try to resubmit all they wish. The claim was that schumacher specically stated " he made an error". When the wiki was finally "edited" without adding the bit about him saying that he made a mistake, I did not further edit /revert/etc. it whatsoever.(One of the changes made was highly speculative and I made a section in the discussion/talk page about it, but i did not further revert after they ceased with the slander/libel). The supposed cite they supplied had nothing at all similar to the supposed claim of an error or mistake. You cannot put words in his mouth, only reiterate what he specfically stated in synonymous terms. In a billion dollar sport like formula one, presenting such materials as "admissions of guilt/error" as "true" statements is highly libelous/slanderous, as you VERY WELL KNOW!Ernham 18:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand. I agree with you, nowhere does it say in the given reference "I made an error". However Schumacher's first words are "I locked up the front and went wide." i.e. in other words he made a mistake. I agree it would have been better to leave it as a quote and not a paraphrase, but I don't think it's slander.

You don't know if that was an error or not. What if his brakes suddenly got too touchy? What if the vehicle had a minor malfunction causing him to do so? Hell, what if he did it intentionally? what was the question actually asked? No context was even given to the response. The point is: if he didn't say it, you don't know it. You can specualte all day, but you cannot put words in his mouth, period.Ernham 18:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

That's actually a good point. Did you make this point clearly though during the reverts? Oh and the question in the post-quali press conference was "Q: A tense and breathtaking qualifying session, and you are on pole, but what happened to you in that incident at Rascasse?" Mark83 18:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the context was given in the cite but not in the wiki. Did you notice that the question is "what happened to you", not "what did you do"?Ernham 18:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

In any event, you don't even have to know much about Formula One to know there is a nigh infinite amount of events that could have occurred to cause him to take a corner wide and/or lock the car up through no error of his own. Hell, his power steering could have been going out, causing him to take the corner wide and when he realized he still wasn't going to make the corner have to lock up the breaks to prevent from smaching into the wall. It's completely slander to say he said he made an error/mistake. Kangaroo madnessErnham 19:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem is there was a compromise which could have been reached. The current revision says "Although Schumacher insisted that he had simply locked up at the corner, a stewards' inquiry stated, "We are left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit." is not in the least slanderous. Instead of reverting (which included removing other important info including the fact that Alonso was set to beat Schumacher's best time and not just what you called slander) you should have taken a time out and discussed the genuine concern you had about the other editor's phrasing of admission vs. maintaining innocence. But that's just my opinion. Mark83 19:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I personally know schumacher said was that he was completely "innocent of any wrong doing" and that "people should know better". Those are the only things I know he personally said, because I watched him say them (on TV, of course). Compromise could have been reached, sure, but as I stated, my only issue and why I was reverting was the obvious slander occurring. They knew full well all they needed to do was remove the claim he said he made an error. As soon as someone made that same edit without adding the slanderous bit, did I not stop reverting? It's that very instant that I went to the talk page to discuss obvious speculation that also went through with that edit that I did not revert. I didn't revert the sepculating, did I, even though I could of? This is just a little power game here. It will come down to whether or not the admin staff here are all corrupt to the core or just a bad apple is stinking up the bunch with his power tripping.Ernham 19:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)