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Discussion now archived
Previous discussion has now archived as page grew beyond guideline size, see Misplaced Pages:Article_size.
- a) Would contributors please follow WIkipedia convention and always place new discussion points at the bottom of page. Use the + sign above if in doubt.
- b) Would new contributors please learn a little bit about Wiki formatting, signing and dating your contributions. Failure to do so makes it very hard for other to follow or to fulfil admin tasks. See, Misplaced Pages:Tutorial and especially, Misplaced Pages:Tutorial_(Talk_pages). If you are having difficulties, go find an admin to help you and have a play in the Misplaced Pages:Sandbox first.
- c) NPA tags belong on user's pages not discussion pages.
Thank you. 195.82.106.244 01:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
NPOVs for Discussion
OK. NPOVs for Discussions. One at a time. No more personal attacks. No more crapflood. No more discussing the discussion. If you use three equal signs before and after a topic, like this "===Topic===", we can create a manageable sub-list of points to discuss. My suggestion is that we work to create the list first, have a little cooling off period, order them according to the article and then discuss them. New issues arising can be discussed in new headlines. Alternatively, we can work our way down the page paragraph by paragraph.
I would like to raise the the issue of membership, financial status and charitable giving, perhaps the later the UN relationship. I hope that BKs will come forward with the pre-requisite figures. 195.82.106.244 03:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Please add your NPOV points below ;
Financial status and charitable giving
Both figures from all zones please, Americas, India, Australasia, Africa etc.195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Membership figures
I have in my possession a letter from the BKWSU stating that they have "no membership" and merely operate an "open door" policy. (Pressumably open door unless you are a PBK). Alternatively BK administrative head Jank Kripalani states they will have 900,000 followers this year. Across the internet figure vary widely from 450,000 to 800,000 but may of these would appear undated or out of date. Obviously, big numbers constitute good PR, "900,000 people could not be wrong" so what is the official figure.
A question to ask here is, what constitutes a "member"? How long does it take to become a BK? How and at what point is one recognized as a BK? And does one ex-communicate oneself by leaving as the average lifespan is said to be about 5 years? Do only a whiteclad senior BKs or centre-in-charges count? Or reliable, 7 day a week Amrit vela and Morning Class attendee. How do they calculate their laity and what status do they have?
The organization is not forthcoming in these figures nor how they are culculated and so I think we should remove any claims in size. Likewise, how many centers to they have? I can only see tens listed on the internet and yet they claim thousands. This discrepancy is too large to be scientific. So can BKs accurately qualify the numbers of dedicated centers and separate them from the number of "Gita Pathshalas", or family homes used as makeshift centers? Again, actual figures rather than PR 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
New Religious Movement or Cult?
I'd say cult is problematic, as it almost always has negative connotations. As the Cult article says, no group ever calls itself a cult, only the group's opponents. On the other hand, I'm not particularly satisfied with New Religious Movement. Any other suggestions? –RHolton≡– 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Its very difficult and it throws us into the very deep end of the academic and politic thought on the matter. I would say that not only opponents use the term cult. Indeed, Dr Eileen Barker who must been seen as a leading proponent, if not initiator, of the term "New Religious Movement" also uses the term cult and admits its interusability. Cult really has a neutral meaning, devalued by sensationalistic journalism and oppositional activists and its hard consonants.
- We also find ourselves at odd between the camps of sociology and psychology. If psychology identifies a series of psychologically coercive practises, and a NRM uses most or all of them, at what point does it cross the line? For example, given this list; I would say that the BKWSU uses most. The compromise would be to say, "of which some/many see as a cult", or "of which uses practises some/many/psychologists identify as coercive and used by groups identified as a cult.
- The BKWSU's own position is that they are not a cult; they are the one, only, true religion and the inspiration of all other religions and God comes to speak to them only. Every other religion is impure. Being Millenarianistic, believing in an immanent "Destruction" of the world, this immediately, in my opinion puts them in the cultic "stage" in their development. However, if we look at the Jehovah Witness, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons etc, we see how groups evolve from cultic stages, to NRM, to established minor religions usually with a re-writing of their credo, as the BKWSU is engaged in. As an aside perhaps it is time for academia to view cult as a stage in social and religious development development rather than an end point of definition for all such groups. See reference to average lifespan above and in cited documentation. 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think both terms should be avoided, primarily because they evoke negativity (per the previous statement).
- A broader reference term such as 'doctrine', maybe more suitable as it doesn't narrowly focus on religion (both so called new and old) and it provides an even plateau for comparison with all schools of thought. 67.79.31.88 18:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is we are not documenting merely the BKWSU Doctine, we are documenting the BKWSU as a whole. If there was a good argument or argeement to split the topic into doctrine from the historical social movement, then fine. NRM is a positive term.
- Can we start by comparing BK lifestyle against academically accepted cult or psychologically coersive techniques given above? I would say that the doctine is operated within a cultic model, e.g. the secrecy surrounding the Murli teaching, the division between the "chosen few" Brahmins and the impure untouchables. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 18:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- RHolton,
- As to Cult, New Religious Movement or sect, I would offer that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is more a cult in my humble opinion.
- They control through tenets ones toileting.....if there is no shower well you best not have that bowel movement. This instruction is even imposed upon children.
- One cannot enter areas of a centre unless they "meet higher requirements of being pure for six months and have showered". Most students do not realise this; it is only once you enter deeper that this is known.
- One must detach (have no contact) from ones family and friends.
- One must do service to ones family and friends: offer the knowledge and try and convert them.
- One must detach from ones children, as they are an obstacle to higher "spirituality".
- One must must not eat food prepared by non-BKs including ones own mother. Their food is impure, they are impure.
- One must follow a BK diet, often not very nutritional but by BK standard "Pure".
- One must not marry, one must be celibate.
- There is to be no sex, not even within marriage.
- These are just some of the few things they control in members/followers lives via tenets/beliefs. I would say it is more a cult as the controlling factor is very clear. Members of such a cult, new religious movement, sect will not see themselves as such, many suffer greatly once they realise they have been in a cult and there have been many suicides and many that have contemplated suicide post Gyan experience.
- In fact the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University tries to state that they are not a religion so as to bring folks in with promises of “meditation”, “stress reduction”, “cultural understanding” and even “weight loss”. Oh, and there isn’t any “University”, unless the location is in the subtle region (heaven to non-BKs). PEACE TalkAboutTalkAbout, 20:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, the best solution would be to find a reliable reference (not BK or former BK) that talks about BKWSU and quote them. We could also mention how BK's refer to themselves, with an appropriate reference.–RHolton≡– 23:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Below please find the quote from the Spanish Academic Report under lists of cults. This is referenced rather then the mention of the French Government report due to its academic value, in-depth analysis and conclusions about psychological outcomes. Below is the link to the French report as well.
- Enumeration of the followers of sects in 1995 by UNADFI Follers
- Cults in France
- • Raja Yoga or Spiritual Organization of Brahma Kumaris 200
- In 1989 – The Spanish Parliamentary Commission: There was a commission for the Study, not investigations. None of the proposed conclusions by the Parliamentarian Commission has been put into practice.
- 1995. - The National Assembly of France: One of the best informative /reports (Commission of Investigations), Profound and strongly made until this moment at present on the phenomenon of Cults. Realised by the Deputy J Guyard. It denounces a grand number/quantity of groups as destructive cults. In them, all are included the following:
- Anthropos (Ágora)
- Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
- Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)
- etc.
- 1995. - The National Assembly of France: One of the best informative /reports (Commission of Investigations), Profound and strongly made until this moment at present on the phenomenon of Cults. Realised by the Deputy J Guyard. It denounces a grand number/quantity of groups as destructive cults. In them, all are included the following:
- Características, funcionamiento y consecuencias psicosociales del fenómeno sectario.
- Colegio Oficial de Psicólogos de Santa Cruz de Tenerife
- SECTAS DESTRUCTIVAS Y GRUPOS DE RIESGO
- Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés
- Psicólogo-Sexólogo
- 1989.- Comisión del Parlamento Español: Se crea una comisión de ESTUDIO, no de INVESTIGACIÓN. Ninguna de las conclusiones propuestas por la Comisión Parlamentaria se ha llevado todavía a la práctica
- 1995. - Asamblea Nacional Francesa: Uno de los mejores informes (comisión de investigación), más fuerte y profundo hecho hasta el momento presente sobre el fenómeno sectario. Realizado por el diputado J. Guyard. Se denuncia a una gran cantidad de grupos como sectas destructivas. Entre todos ellos cabe destacar:
- Anthropos (Ágora)
- Asociación L.J. Engelmajet (El Patriarca)
- Brahma Kumaris (Universidad Espiritual Internacional)
- etc.” PEACE TalkAbout 02:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- On the basis of the examples of cult-like behavior listed above, you can count me amongst the apologists and I would argue NRM. I do not think that they are particularly unique nor accurate either in detail or understanding. Some are merely a Western misinterpretation of cultural practises widespread in the Middle and Far East, i.e. food politics of the Indian caste system, toileting in tropical climates, monastic traditions all be they practised within domestic environments.
- The third party sources are quite sound. The problem with falling back on other academic sources in that we fall back on the divides between apologists, apostates and the fads and fashions of academic funding. Religious sociology is a small field in which one man's funding application is a cult, when anothers is an NRM. Cult's political value has fallen whilst NRM's has had a minor revival and is sustaining itself. Just.
- What is the difference between a minority religion and a cult? Just being weird doesn't make the BKWSU a cult. I have given a reference of psychologically coercive techniques from a regular expert witness above. What raises the cult question for me would be that within the framework of an absolute Millenarianism, the prediction of an immanent End of the World any day;
- Undue influence: mind control - tick
- Charismatic Leadership: Claiming divinity or special knowledge and demanding unquestioning obedience with power and privilege. Leadership may consist of one individual or a small core of leaders - tick
- Deception: Recruiting and fundraising with hidden objectives and without full disclosure; use of front groups - tick
- Exclusivity: Secretiveness or vagueness by followers regarding activities and beliefs - tick
- Alienation: Separation from family, friends and society, a change in values and substitution of the cult as the new family; evidence of subtle or abrupt personality changes - tick (which is what the author above is stating)
- Exploitation: Can be financial, physical, or psychological; pressure to give money, to spend a great deal on courses or "service" projects, inappropriate sexual activities even child abuse - tick
- Totalitarian Worldview (we/they syndrome): Effecting dependence, promoting goals of the group over the individual and approving unethical behavior while claiming goodness - tick
- The BKWSU is certainly not a sect or sub-sect or another religion either by the definition of its channelled teachings nor its own beliefs about itself. According to its own beliefs of a 5,000 Year repeating Cycle of time, they are the foundation of all other religions, e.g. Christ will come to them now and study only to come back in 3,000 years to teach Christianity again after their heaven on earth is over. 195.82.106.244 21:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Sevak Ram's role in the founding of the movement
One important issue we have to resolve is the role of Sevak Ram, Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, in the establishment of the Om Mandali "group", see . The author is the said piece is or was a BK and so there have to be some grounds for inclusion. Would any BK care to offer the official history of his role? 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject India
A bot has identified this is an article from inclusion in the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_India project and as "stub class". I have removed the tab as it was not introduced nor discussed and the topic article is certainly by no means a stub. This raises valid discussion of its own. Personally, I see the BKWSU as an international and not merely Indian organzation.
This could conceivably again lead to forks in the article. 195.82.106.244 18:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've restored the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_India tag, though I've rated the article as a "B" class (I wonder how the 'bot decided this was a stub?). These sort of tags get applied to articles all the time, usually without discussion; we should feel free to alter the rating though, and I'm open to discussion on the "B" I gave the article. By the way, having a WikiProject_India tag doesn't (to me) suggest that the article is only relevant to India. –RHolton≡– 23:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Talk page etiquette
Please, everyone be careful when you edit this page. In very recent history, an editor inadventantly obliterated another editor's post (which was later restored by a third editor). Serious misunderstandings begin this way.
Also, when archiving previous content, always archive in context. Don't pull pieces of a section out of the main talk page to the archive. Do the whole thing or nothing.
I'd also beg people to restrain themselves from messing with other people's posts, even if you're just wikifying or fixing a spelling error. If you must do this sort of editing, make sure that you do not in any way alter the content of the post, and do this sort of editing separate from adding your own contents. The problem is that these kind of edits make it almost impossible for someone attempting to follow the flow of conversation in the history.
Finally, please retain the posting order: add your posts to the bottom of the section, and if you're creating a new section, add it to the bottom of the page. Yes, there are rare exceptions, but let's keep them rare.
Thanks!
Let us focus in the article
Dear Souls, Om Shanti! Hope you are doing well these days… I would like to acknowledge the timely input of RHolton; his input allowed some of us to smell the roses, go to the beach, have regular meditations, etc… Things are great when you do not have to revert a long time expected and well deserved NPOV in this article. Thanks! Thus, now is about the article, “Past is Past…” Here I go...:
Let me start with this very important Misplaced Pages policy: VERIFIABILITY
1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.
Please keep in mind point #3.
Now, let me dissect the article paragraph by paragraph. As we move along, besides the "verifiability" policy; I am sure other policies will come up, which I will make sure to provide.
The first paragraph of the NPOV article in question: “Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or the BKWSU, is a new religious movement that began in 1937 based on the experiences of Lekhraj Kripalani in Sindh (present day Pakistan).The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."
Questions:
1) What is the source for the above mentioned statement?
The source may need to be academic, researched by holders of graduate degrees. Would you kindly point out your source? Please check this page out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Finding_good_sources. Please, if applicable provide the ISBN number since readers would like to double check the source.
2)Brahma Kumaris is being labeled as "New Religious Movement" in the article. Sources? please.
3) 195.82.106.244 pointed out in RHolton’s talk page the following: “We are going to have problems Mr Holton because you have admin status to throw around but your opening comments are factually inaccurate. The BKWSU was not founded in 1937, the precursor Om Mandali was World Renewal Trust followed. The "University" is not real university and as such not founded, it might be misleading. Additionally, the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba. And the citation are clearly available and non-contentious. So caution please if we are to be accurate. 195.82.106.244 18:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)”
Accordingly, why is not “ShivBaba” in this paragraph? ("the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba.") Is 1937 the real date? Sources, please...sources.
4) What is the source for the "The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."? I am really curious about the source of this excerpt.Please provide the references. As an aside, I just want to comment that I do not foresee any problems with Mr. Holton’s input, on the contrary; his impartial input is truly appreciated.
Note: If there are no verifiable references for these points, the paragraph must be deleted from Misplaced Pages.
- One of the problems in your approach Luis is that you ignore what you do not like to see or cannot win, go for the personal attack, adopt a full on and aggressive distortions to the facts without addressing the multifold citations that have already been offered to you. As you see above, we have the "The Spanish Parliamentary Commission" and "The National Assembly of France" both label the BKWSU a Cult. Is that not satisfactory? Are we happy therefore to label the BKWSU a cult instead of a New Religious Movement? I am actually happy either way but NRM is more diplomatic.
- Sources do not need to be academic, for example, an article on Christianity can perfectly well quote the Bible as source . An article on the BKWSU can reference the Murlis or its own materials. The guidelines state "easily verifiable", so, for examples, if I state that the BKWSU has been accuse of torture and kidnapping and then offer the reference of the Deccan Times that is perfectly adequate. If I give an actual date of a Sakar Murli, any interested researcher can attended their local BK Raja Yoga center and request a copy of it to check or the see the increasing number published on the internet, e.g. .
- With reference to Spirit channelling, the easily verifiable source is the BKWSU's own teaching manual mid to late-1990s which has been reproduced in full here, . In which it is clearly stated by the BKWSU that the method by which so-called Shiva talks through Lekhraj Kirpalani is spirit channelling. Just out of interest, what else would you call it?
- With reference to the various stages and dates of founding in the history of the BKWSU, I am very happy for you to provide your detailed information. The legal entities, e.g. Word Renewal Trust, might be the most easily referenced and there is going to be debate as to when the spirit Shiva established what when as many BKs will argue that it was actually done via Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner Sevak Ram through which Shiva explained to Kirpalani what was happening. As the early gatherings were informal, I think it will be very hard to put precise dates but am surprised the dates of the initial possession were not recorded.
- Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. Thanks 195.82.106.244 01:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
I am glad to see that my post is complete…
Now, let me address your points:
Please read the post in Spanish which TalkAbout referred to: what I read there is not the word “cult.” I read “sect” Do you see that? (In Spanish both words are different) The note posted had Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés as the author. He is a psychologist. Do you believe that a Psychologist is in fact authoritative to write about religion and spiritual movements? Please follow this wikipedia rule: “published by reputable sources.”
Since you mentioned about Christianity, here is a link to the wikipedia site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/Christianity
Please note the neat references.
As far as “sect, “ cult” or “NRM” what should be posted in the wikipedia article is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Cult.2C_sect
Then, yes.. I agree with you…According to Misplaced Pages (see link) the term NRM should be used, and “sect and cult” avoided. See? That is reasonable. I am helping you with this source to support the addition of NRM in the article.
Of course, that is not how Brahmins see ourselves, or some else but since we are in WIKIPEDIA, we need to follow WIKIPEDIA conventions.
Please take a minute to read the following: “Misplaced Pages articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate. In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Misplaced Pages) or through a public library. It is very important to cite sources appropriately, so that readers can find your source and can satisfy themselves that Misplaced Pages has used the source correctly.” From: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research
When writing an article, it is very important to know what is a “primary source, ” “secondary source, “ etc. An on-line newspaper it is not a “reputable source.” unless it is in the same category as the “New York Times.” See this article in the same newspaper you used in your link: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/oct172006/update8203720061017.asp See their use of proper English, grammar, etc. This is far from “reputable.” As far as the article you linked, note that is one sided (Bias). We do not know the comments or arguments of the other side.
Let me reiterate: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” In you example about Christianity, the sources are taken from “known academic publishing house or university press.” When you say: “Sources do not need to be academic.” That is true; however they must be reliable. Your newspaper link nor the site BKINFO fulfill this requirement. The same holds true for any publication made by a Brahma Kumaris publication. You cannot use that as “reliable” source because it does not fit the concept of “reliable publication” according to Misplaced Pages. Please see the link above. You cannot “just give a date of a sakar murli” you need to quote that from a reliable source. See that? With that in mind, you have not disclosed any “reliable” source for that first paragraph. In short: Please comply with this requirement. Use a scholar or a reputable source to back up your statements. Do not use a Brahma Kumaris publication because it does not comply with the concept of reliability stated by Misplaced Pages.
You wrote: “Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. “ I do not pretend to erase the whole article, but if you do not present any reliable sources, according to wikipedia we will need to consider that. As far as the other issues, if they are in the current article, they may need to be addressed at the proper time. Please do not try to modify or add any more information to the current article.
Best Wishes, avyakt7
- So you are saying to us that the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is not a proper academic institute like any other University and that dcuments or papers produced by its senior faculty members are not permissable? That all and any publications from it are unreliable by Wiki standards?
- That is a strange position for you to take and for me to argue against. If it is a University, then surely its materials are perfectly adequate? Please confirm the BKWSU's status in your mind and why you would exclude materials from it in this article.
- That is a bit like the Scientologists arguing, "you cant write an article on Scientology if it includes materials Scientology produced". If we look at the Scientology article, we discover that such materials are perfectly acceptable, and it is not even a University. 195.82.106.244 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244,
Let me write the WIKIPEDIA policy one more time: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” This is self-explanatory. BK press is not included here. See that? Brahma Kumaris is a Spiritual University. It is not an academic university. University is derived from the Latin universitas, meaning corporation (since the first medieval European universities were often groups of scholars-for-hire). In BK we have seniors who have achieved a high degree of spiritual awareness, thus our "faculty." Even though, someone may have several academic degrees, he/she may not fit that qualification (spiritual awaraness). Please do not argue against.. just provide the reliable publications as established by WIKIPEDIA...and remember those are not my rules, those are WIKIPEDIA's. Best Wishes, avyakt7
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