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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RightCowLeftCoast (talk | contribs) at 17:04, 10 March 2018 (→RfC on NRA advocacy for black gun owners: added please see template). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/WikiProject used

This WikiProject has been mentioned by a media organization: Russell Brandom (March 6, 2018). "How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages's AR-15 page". The Verge. Archived from the original on March 6, 2018. Retrieved March 7, 2018. For months, the "Colt AR-15" page has been largely edited by a group of gun enthusiast editors. They joined together under the name "Misplaced Pages Project: Firearms," or "WP:Firearms" for short.

This WikiProject has been mentioned by a media organization: Jacob Parakilas (March 18, 2014). "Misplaced Pages, neutrality and guns". AOAV. Archived from the original on September 14, 2017. Retrieved March 7, 2018.

This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Firearms and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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Firearms NA‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Firearms, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of firearms on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FirearmsWikipedia:WikiProject FirearmsTemplate:WikiProject FirearmsFirearms NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Firearms and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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References

Valid Sources

After reviewing WP:FIND, I'm still not sure what sources are valid. Guns are an interesting subject to try to source, because many of the publications are very blog-like, and heavy on the subjective reviews, but still contain a plethora of technical data. Websites like americanrifleman.org, range365.com, shootingillustrated.com, and guns.com are what I'm wondering about, specifically. Anyway, if any of you all would kindly help me out, that would be appreciated. Mr.1032 (talk) 03:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

AR-15s in California

I recommend that AR-15s in California article be merged with the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 page with appropriate redirect. Please comment at Talk:AR-15s in California.--Limpscash (talk) 05:55, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

A huge pile of instruction-manuals for firearms

Hi folks, via archive.org you can obtain a huge pile of instructionmanuals for firearms. Perhaps you like to link them in the corresponding articles or find some other use for them ;-) Access archive.org by https://web.archive.org/web/20180204114622/http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/ HTH + greets from de:PD:WF & germany 80.187.100.131 (talk) 12:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. I have taken the liberty to add a "Resource" section to the main page including this info...Instruction manuals for a wide range of firearms, in PDF form....We can also use this new "Resource" section for additional sources of information.--RAF910 (talk) 16:56, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Not reliable sources for notability purposes, for the record, but could probably be used for basic factual info. Thanks! ansh666 20:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that was my thinking. The manufacture is always the undisputed authority on production history and design details: weight, barrel length, caliber, ammunition restrictions, etc.--RAF910 (talk) 23:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I went to this page, with a long list of what look like are meant to be links. They don't actually link to anything... Going to that same page from the site's home page is no help, either. TREKphiler 00:26, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Click on PDF...the right side of page--RAF910 (talk) 00:33, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@RAF910 in fact a very good idea = "add a "Resource" section to the main page" :-) a well (as subpage) organized pendant in german projekt firearms can be found via: de:Portal:Waffen/Mitarbeit/Quellen_IB.

The folks in the german projekt did a lot to make it look nice and to have comfortable interconnections. In the meantime most of them are tired (or retired) ;-) If you like this, feel free to have a closer look to their former working results. For a better impression about the organisation of this resource areas they can be read in translated Versions: see Sublibary 01 and Libary overview. A similar site in en:WP can be found via Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Military_history/Logistics#Sources. BTW within de:WP we decided not to connect it from WP:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Shared_Resources#Technology. Reason was to keep the area calm. A connection from the area "Resource" section to the main page" which you created now was perfect as we experienced. HTH cordial greetings to all members of this projekt and have fun with the stuff. --80.187.109.37 (talk) 09:22, 6 February 2018 (UTC) P.S. I tried to identify active users of this project by the template. Unfortunately, with little success :-(

"Click on PDF" My windows were too small to see those after the page loaded...without scrolling sideways. Thx. TREKphiler 03:14, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Addition of crime in firearms-related articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addition of crime to the Smith & Wesson article

There is a debate at the Smith & Wesson article regarding the inclusion of the recent shooting in Florida in the article because it has been reported that the AR-15 used was a S&W model. Springee (talk) 01:37, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Springee: The debate appears to have jumped right to the straw poll stage already with people !voting on the issue. FYI - WOLFchild 14:09, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Springee: thanks for the note, but in the future, please cut out the second sentence to avoid the appearance of WP:CANVASS. ansh666 17:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Addition of crime to the Modern sporting rifle article

There is a another debate at the Talk:Modern sporting rifle article regarding the inclusion of crime and mass shooting info.--RAF910 (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Addition of crime to the Colt AR-15 article

There is a another debate at the Talk:Colt AR-15 article regarding the inclusion of crime and mass shooting info.--RAF910 (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Same debate, multiple articles... here's a proposal

It appears that proposals to add information on mass-shootings are popping up on several firearms-related articles. As firearms are one of the central components of the subject being debated, I propose we direct all these discussion and their straw polls here to one centralized discussion, seeking one community-wide consensus. Otherwise, we'll end up with a local consensus going one way on one article and another way on a different article, which will lead to further disputes when editors start citing different discussions and their local consensus to support controversial edits to firearms and mass-shooting related articles.

Proposed

close all discussions about the same issue on related articles and have one central discussion here to (hopefully) achieve a single, community-wide consensus. If there is enough support, we'll have the discussion here as an RfC. Thanks

• Support - as proposer - WOLFchild 19:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - We need to discuss both the overall trend of mass shootings involving AR-15 style rifles as well as whether or not to include a Crimes section in specific gun or manufacturer articles. –dlthewave ☎ 19:31, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Springee (talk) 19:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Cavalryman V31 (talk) 21:25, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• comment - Is it appropriate to move the discussions here immediately, before they develop any further? –dlthewave ☎ 17:18, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

That is what is being proposed. I'd like to see these discussions centralized before they can form conflicting local consensuses. - WOLFchild 19:51, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done.

• Support --DHeyward (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings

This is a consolidation of similar discussions taking place at Talk:Modern sporting rifle, Talk:Smith & Wesson and Talk:Colt AR-15.

• There is significant RS coverage of the prevalence of AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings. Should this be covered in any of the relevant firearms articles? If so, what would be the most appropriate way to include this information? –dlthewave ☎ 20:07, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment -- my suggestion would be to have the discussion outside of the project space, as this may result in a project-specific consensus, not a community one. Possible venues include WP:NPOVN or WP:VP. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: - Every one of these articles falls under this project. To assume bias is a lack of WP:AGF. This is precisely where this discussion should be held. However, that said, there is nothing stopping you from posting notifications on the "WP:NPOVN or WP:VP" talk pages, or anywhere else for that matter, to involve as much of the community as possible. - WOLFchild 22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

The stated goal of the discussion is to achieve "a single, community-wide consensus". When the immediate reaction is "This is the usual gun confiscator garbage", yes, the location of the discussion appears to be non-neutral. I'm afraid that it would only result in a localised consensus. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:48, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: - I'm aware of the stated goal, I wrote it. And while you added the diff of a single, politically charged pro-gun comment, (from a different page BTW), I could also add diffs of politically charged, anti-gun comments, but I won't. Instead, I'll say again, the articles being discussed, and potentially affected, fall under the scope of this project, therefore this is where the discussion should be held. And I will also say again, there is nothing stopping you from posting notifications to as many venues as you like, to ensure the widest community response, and with that, a balanced response. You seem to be treating these pages as different physical locations, and if the discussion is held here, then people can't be bothered to get in their cars and drive allll the way over here. This is just a page of the same website, like any of the other pages you suggested. Please go read WP:AGF and stop trying to derail this discussion. - WOLFchild 23:09, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Local consensus for all articles covered by project firearms, which is where the issue lies. Seems fairly reasonable to me. PackMecEng (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Then yet, that's local consensus. In such case, calling it a community-wide consensus is inaccurate. Articles do not "belong" to a project, and the applicability of such consensus would be limited. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

It's not "local consensus"... do you even know that means? This discussion has barely begun and you're already derailing it with repetitive, off-topic nonsense. Do you see a massive pro-gun response here? Are anti-gun editors somehow being shut out of this discussion or barred from this page? Stop this already. - WOLFchild 23:13, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Every one of these articles falls under this project. - Ergo the only editors who might have something constructive to add to the discussion—or an opinion that should be counted—are members of this project?
To state To assume bias is a lack of WP:AGF. is a misapplication of WP:AGF, which has nothing to do with natural, good-faith bias due to a special interest in firearms.
stop trying to derail this discussion. (<--- For comparison, THAT'S a lack of AGF) - do you even know that means? - repetitive, off-topic nonsense. - Stop this already. - I'll ask that you moderate your imperious and combative tone when addressing established Misplaced Pages editors.
This does not belong in project space. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

"Ergo the only editors who might have something constructive to add to the discussion—or an opinion that should be counted—are members of this project?" - Oh puh-leeeze. Show me, exactly, where I wrote anything remotely resembling that. And while you're looking, try not to skip the multiple times I clearly stated that notification of this discussion can be posted virtually anywhere on the project. So clearly this discussion won't be confined to the "pro-gun, members-only, secret club" you and your companion seem to think the Firearms Project is.
"I'll ask that you moderate your imperious and combative tone when..." blah, blah. blah. Give it a rest. It's these kind of prechy, off-topic comments that constantly derail any meaningful discussion. You've contributed nothing to the topic at hand and the only purpose of this, your sole contribution here, is to scold me. Well, now I've been told, ok?. So, just as I asked of your cohort, please stay on topic. Thank you. - WOLFchild 15:50, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• Seems like every time this happens every AR-15 related article gets spammed with info on it, even if it not the AR branded to the article or a AR at all, which is far from idea. Part of the issue seems to be that AR-15 and other common terms redirect to Colt AR-15, I think a good start would be changing that to Modern sporting rifle. If we cannot do that a tag at the top similar to what we do for the Kleenex article "For the generic item, see Modern sporting rifle." or the AR-15 (disambiguation) might be a good step to avoid confusion. For info on the shootings themselves Mass shootings in the United States might be a good place to expand on them. PackMecEng (talk) 21:56, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• Part of the problem, which Misplaced Pages can help fix, is that the term AR-15 is used basically as a designator for all semi-automatic rifles. Twenty years ago the media referred to all of these rifles as "AK-47"s which thankfully ended. The goal should be to inform the reader without sensationalizing the use of these weapons. The mass shooters like the school shooter in Florida aren't experts in weapons and take their cues from coverage. We should strive to be accurate and not feed the sensationalism and hype. This isn't a marketing platform for mass shooters to indulge their wet dreams. --DHeyward (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

♠Since somebody's seen fit to quote me...

♠Every time there's a mass shooting, the gun confiscators come out & blame the weapon for the crime. Every single time. Every time, there's a detailed description, including the size of the magazine. Yet, when there's a car bombing, or somebody drives at truck into a crowd, or somebody stabs seven people, do you even hear the make, let alone engine displacement or blade length? So why is there so much hypocrisy? Guns don't kill people. Show me a single case of a firearm killing someone by itself, & I'll endorse any gun restriction you care to name. You can't. Saying there are millions of AR-15s, or that "guns kill", is disingenuous nonsense. Stop, already.

♠The confiscators don't call for a ban on cigarettes, or jail terms for cigarette company execs, or a ban on cars, or jail for car company execs, which both kill more people every year than guns. Neither do they calling for mention of every crime, or fatal car accident, involving a Ford Fusion on the Fusion page. I call that hypocritical at worst, intellectually dishonest at best.

♠For the record, I'm not an NRA member. I'm not even a gun owner. I'm just sick & tired of the violation of people's rights by the majority. You think it's okay to treat smokers this way because you don't smoke. You think it's okay to treat gun owners this way because you don't own guns or know anybody who does. I'm saying, as clearly as a can, it's not. WP isn't a platform for scoring political points. And for the record, I don't mean to name anybody involved in this discussion, so don't go hauling out NPA. TREKphiler 04:28, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

"Guns don't kill people", Trekphiler? Can you pretend to be neutral? This is exactly why this discussion shouldn't be held in this place, as K.e.coffman argued: too many editors in this project are myopically focused on bullets and calibers. K.e.coffman, do you want to open this up at VP or some place like that? This echo chamber needs clearing out. Before we go there, two quick points: a. we're supposed to give factual information to the reader--sure, and this is factual, and the suggestion that a butter knife would have been just as deadly is disingenuous and intellectually challenged; b. "all these gun blamers just call everything an AR-15"--well, that's how it is reported in very reliable media, who also point out that these massacres are typically followed by that kind of obfuscation: "it wasn't an AR-15, it was an AR-15 style. That is what the Dutch call ant-fucking, and it totally misses the point. DHeyward helpfully pointed out that the Parkland article points to the article for the actual gun used there, but that also isn't the point: we have hundreds of thousands of reader who visited Colt AS-15 to find out about this thing; they should be pointed to the right place, one way or another, and that place shouldn't be called Modern sporting rifle, since that is a euphemistic in-crowd term, as the second paragraph of that article makes clear. Note: I just added a hatnote to Colt AR-15, pending further clarification. Y'all can bemoan the lack of intricate knowledge among the general population, but that's unproductive and unfair. Nor do I remember "everything" being called an AK-47 at one time. Drmies (talk) 16:58, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

"Can you pretend to be neutral?" I'm not, & I'm not prepared to be dishonest about it. You have a POV on it, too. That's what the discussion is about: balancing the presentation to account for both yours andmine. And there are evidently some confiscators involved, too, or we wouldn't have somebody trying to put the event on the S&W page in the first place: somebody wants to blame the guns for the acttions of the shooter, as if the guns somehow whispered in his ear, "Use me to kill someone!" Garbage. AR-15s aren't made by Watt-Evans Firearms. TREKphiler 01:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Drmies: Federal Assault Weapons Ban has it in the background section since Cleveland Elementary School shooting (Stockton) used a Semi-automatic Norinco Type 56S rifle which is referred to as an "AK-47." Heck, the meme for journalists guide to firearms is here and reflected the "everything is an Ak-47." AR-15s were not popular because they were expensive and unreliable. If you don't remember, it's likely you were either unaware or uninformed. It highlights the problem that it is not models but features that people expect to see. The AR-15 modern sporting rifle evolved through what has become a defacto standard in accessories. The rest of the world is still awash in "AK-47s" because that interchangeable platform is still by far the most common platform in the world and still the most reliable. --DHeyward (talk) 23:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I'll add that if you think there is a difference between an semi-automatic AK-47 type rifle and a semi-automatic AR-15 type rifle, you should be able to articulate the differences. To the casual reader, there is not a difference and they both fall under the "modern sporting rifle" article. That category includes the most commonly identifiable features such as "pistol grip" and detachable box magazine." --DHeyward (talk) 00:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• As a point of comparison, not long ago I was involved in an automotive RFC related to including information about the Oklahoma City Bombing on the Ford F-650 page as well as the DC Sniper shootings on the Chevy Caprice page. ]. The opinion of uninvolved editors was heavily against inclusion. I would view the question their as similar to here. Is that product uniquely associated with the crime? Would an article about that product talk about the crime? We dealt with, for lack of better terms, weight reciprocity. If subject B is important to subject A does that make A important to B? This topic is more emotionally charged than the automotive example but if we are going to be logical about it the same logic should apply here. Springee (talk) 04:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. And a similar discussion has been had in the past over inclusion of events aboard Nevada on the Attack on Pearl Harbor page; they were considered important to Nevada, but insufficiently relevant to the attack. I've also seen this raised on other matters. TREKphiler 12:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

clarification

I think an experienced and uninvolved editor should post a clear and neutrally written RfC here that spells out exactly what is being discussed and what the possible outcomes are. It seems to me that as a reaction to the recent shooting in Florida, several editors, (some of whom are newcomers, here just for this purpose) are seeking to include mention of mass-shootings and other notable, and possibly controversial, firearms-related incidents to the articles of various firearms; their types, brands and manufacturers. Many other editors have opposed this, the reasons varying from opposing political points of view to reasons supported by the policies & guidelines of this project.

Should it decided that this content is to be included, which articles are 'in' and which are 'out'? What form would these additions take? A "Controversy" section? A section titled "List of incidents involving X"? Would these be detailed entries? Or simple point form additions? (eg: by date, or name of incident) Would there be a limit? (these additions could potentially outweigh the rest of the content of some of these articles). I would do this myself, (and this comment almost appears like an RfC effort), but I have already participated in some of the straw polls so I would be considered 'involved'. Cheers - WOLFchild 22:43, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

• Given that the topic is contentious (see my comments above), I would again suggest holding the RfC at WP:NPOVN or WP:V. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:05, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Now you're just being disruptive. - WOLFchild 23:13, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, if that's how the project members react to attempts at discussion and expressions of concern...: off-topic nonsense; anti-gun editors; disruptive, etc. There is nothing stopping you from posting the RfC to WP:NPOVN or WP:VP. You've said yourself that the edits are likely to be "controversial"; why not seek the widest possible consensus and input? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

You're still going on about this? - WOLFchild 23:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

This is the correct location for this discussion (and RfC). All the subject articles are in the scope of this project. With proper notification (including at the article pages in question) I think we will get our wide range of opinions. Springee (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

What to include in an RfC

I initially did not present this as an RfC because there seem to be several aspects that would be difficult to cover in a single RfC. I felt that more discussion was needed. Here are the two questions that currently come to mind:

• What level of coverage should be given to shooting incidents in individual firearm articles such as Colt AR-15? Should it be none, a simple list, or a more detailed section?
• What level of coverage should be given to the trend of AR-15 style rifles being used in mass shootings? Should it be included in Modern sporting rifle? Should this take the form of statistical data or a more in-depth paragraph?

Any thoughts before I write an RfC? –dlthewave ☎ 00:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Good questions, but just out of curiosity, haven't you participated in some of these discussions, and posted a !vote in some of the straw polls? I know I have and that's why I didn't write the RfC. I don't want to risk any disputes over being 'involved'. - WOLFchild 00:20, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Is it supposed to be written by an uninvolved editor? Is that a thing? –dlthewave ☎ 00:31, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a 'thing'. RfCs should be written so they are completely neutral, and therefore should be written by an uninvolved editor. - WOLFchild 01:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a guideline where an RfC is supposed to be written by an uninvolved editor -- or to say the same thing a different way, I think it's okay for an involved editor to write an RfC, including this one. Of course, the RfC itself should be worded in a neutral way. I'm looking at Misplaced Pages:Writing requests for comment#Neutrality, where it gives this helpful tip: another editor who doesn't know your opinion shouldn't be able to guess it from reading the question. — Mudwater 13:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• Wait, what? This is a horrible idea. You're taking three disparate discussions and jamming them together all because they have a common thread of including criminal use? There's one about a manufacturer, one about an abstract classification of firearms, and one about a weapon that is wrongly named frequently. These all have unique concerns, and are unlike the normal discussion about individual firearms articles (where it would be somewhat useful to have an RfC). In any case, no overarching consensus will be able to account for all cases, and that's something that any drafted RfC is going to have to consider. And yes, I agree that any RfC should be at a more visible location like WP:VPP, or at least have notices there and at WP:CENT. ansh666 00:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

My intent is to create one RfC for each question. Frankly I think the misnaming issue can be solved by improving descriptions and redirects, which should be non-controversial. –dlthewave ☎ 00:29, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

If we're having one RfC for each question, then why aren't we doing on each individual page? This is pointless. ansh666 01:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

There is only one question at the core of all these disputes; "should there be any notation of mass-shootings (etc.) on the articles of the firearm type, brand, and/or manufacturer of the firearms used in the shooting or not?" If so, then we go from there, decide which articles get a notation and which don't, and how it should be noted (prose, point form, etc). It's pretty straight-forward. Furthermore, the discussion needs to be held in one place. Otherwise, we'll end up with conflicting local consensuses, which will just lead to further disputes and disruption. - WOLFchild 01:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

But each of those is a different case, with different arguments for and against. Not at all straight-forward. ansh666 01:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

How is each a "different case"? At the core of each dispute is whether or not to include info about these mass-shootings. But you're correct that there were "different arguments for and against", that's why the discussion should be in one place. So that all those arguments can be taken into account toward a community-wide consensus. - WOLFchild 01:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

In my experience, a more specific question will give a result that is easier to implement and less open to interpretation. Perhaps one RfC with several related questions? –dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay, whatever. Good luck with that. If y'all eventually find a way to put something coherent together, I'll probably participate. ansh666 08:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• I support the idea of a single RFC. I would make it open ended and simply ask, where should such information be included (model page, manufacture's page and/or general platform (generic AR-15 platform page for example)). We should also offer some scope regarding how much should be added to these articles vs just linking to the primary article about the crime or about the topic (mass shootings etc). Springee (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• As other editors have pointed out, the only reason people want to add mass shooting and criminal use sections to firearms article, is because they want to add a "body count" to these page in order to sway public opinion. Therefore, I believe that all firearm pages should remain apolitical. These article should only be use to describe the guns and there developmental history. We already have many Assault weapon and Gun Control pages even Mass shooting and Mass shootings in the United States page with a list of the top 20 shootings, and it does not mention specific weapons, only calling them semi-automatic rifle. So, I see no reason why its necessary to add mass shooting and criminal use sections, which others have pointed out, will quickly overwhelm firearms articles.--Limpscash (talk) 06:45, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• I believe we need to restrict this to one RfC asking what level of coverage should be included on a firearm model's page, this project already has policy on references on pages to notable criminal use of firearms, stating a reference to the crime should be included in the see also section, whilst not my preferred option perhaps the RfC should examine if this is sufficient. Unless consensus from the RfC is significant coverage should be included on firearm model pages, I think we should await that answer before discussing trends and statistical analysis. I am sympathetic to K.e.coffman's arguments about the location of this RfC and at a minimum believe notices of this RfC should be posted at the venues he suggested. As to the confusion between modern sporting rifles vs Colt AR-15s vs generic AR-15s, that is something this project should deal with internally through improving and better defining these weapon's pages, although I am afraid this is not my area of expertise. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 11:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• This a waste of time. The project already state that criminal use should be limited to a simple link in the see also section, nobody cares. As Limpcash said "they want to add a "body count" to these pages in order to sway public opinion". The only way to stop them is to permanently protect these page, delete crime and mass shooting info when added, and to block users who don't take the hint.--RAF910 (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Why the generic page is not called AR-15

I'm not a fan of the generic AR-15 page name, Modern Sporting Rifles, because (personal opinion here) think that term would include non-AR-15 pattern rifles such as some Mini-14s, Sig MCX, possibly AR-10s and even AK pattern rifles. Basically it's ambiguous in a way could include rifles that are not variations of the AR-15. Anyway, I hunted down the talk discussion that I believe lead to the current name. It may be useful background as we move forward. ] Springee (talk) 01:37, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it's good name, as it reinforces the idea that for the general population (non Mil & LE) these are for "sport" (not killing people). They're not "assault rifles". I think you even made the point that "AR-15"(tm) can mean a specific product of a specific maker. But "AR-15" is also now in common usage to refer to a wide array of rifles, most of which, but not all, are patterned on the original AR-15. I believe that article does include other types of "sporting rifles", such as the SIG MCX. Perhaps there should be even more content added, such as the multitude of western-made, semi-auto, AK-47 pattern sporting rifles. Maybe even pistol caliber carbines which are becoming hugely popular. - WOLFchild 01:52, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

In addition there are AR-15 pattern firearms that are classified as pistols. These are all relatively new developments. The common threads of AR-15s that make them popular are the wide array of interchangeable and compatible pieces and components. Some are AR-15 specific like triggers. Some are standards like picatinny rails and STANAG magazines. What is not related is the misconceptions in the press like "high-powered" ammunition (probably the lowest power, least lethal center-fire rifle ammunition available - it's considered a varmint round). "Semi-automatic" is operation of the vast majority of firearms with a today and differentiates it only from military weapons that have fully-automatic. Semiautomatic fire arms have the same rate of fire as revolvers. The goal of the firearms project is to spot inaccurate descriptions and accounts and make sure the inaccurate information is incorporated. Right now, in the middle of a major news cycle, there is TONS of misinformation. Competent editors understand that these errors are part of being a news cycle. WP:NOTNEWS is why this discussion belong here and why these long standing articles shouldn't gyrate on breathless coverage of fast breaking news.The Orlando shooting is a case in point: the initial report was AR-15. The detailed report was Sig MPX. They are different significantly in operation, notably that AR-15 pattern rifles can't have a folding stock. The Sig can have a folding stock. It's a fundamental and incompatible difference that allows it. The press really means "modern sporting rifle" when it says AR-15 and it could be any rifle, possibly even the bolt-action variants of AR-15 --DHeyward (talk) 03:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• Comment -- AR-15 style rifle is currently a redirect to Modern sporting rifle. I believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is a better choice for the article title, per WP:COMMONNAME. I first encountered that issue at #Modern sporting rifle? and believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is much more intuitive for the general reader. See for example pageview stats for Colt AR-15 while AR-15 was a redirect to the Colt page. People were clearly looking for info on "AR-15 semi-automatic rifle" or similar. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:44, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The "Modern Sporting Rifles" page was not intended to be a generic AR-15. It was created to define the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" which is most commonly associated with generic AR-15s. It became the generic AR-15 page by virtue of its existence, and because we a handful Misplaced Pages editors are not qualified to call it anything else. If the firearms industry wants to call these rifles "Modern Sporting Rifles" then who are we to say otherwise? If you want to create another page called "AR-15 style rifle" you are welcome to do so, but it will just mirror the MSR page. Or worse, turn into a dumping ground for anything that uses the term "AR-15" like the original AR-15 page which made no distinction between the ArmaLite AR-15, Colt AR-15, M16, and generic AR-15 rifles and did everything in its power to convince the reader that all AR-15s are machineguns. --Limpscash (talk) 06:10, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with Limpcash--RAF910 (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
    • The terms are equivalent, by design of the industry. The National Shooting Sports Foundation coined "modern sporting rifle" in 2009 and explicitly said "To avoid confusion, the term "modern sporting rifle" was further defined as an AR-style rifle."--Pharos (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• The very generic redirects; "AR-15", "Ar-15" and "AR15" should kink to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page. Everything is listed there, giving the reader the choice to select the appropriate article that suits their inquiry. But, they've all been directed to the Colt AR-15 page. This is based on a decision made by 'four editors a few months ago. This is precisely why I'm been pushing to have a wider discussion for a for informed community consensus, so we can avoid situations like this; being beholden to a local consensus made by all of 4 people. - WOLFchild 02:43, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The "very generic redirects" should link to the generic page Modern sporting rifle and that article should be prefaced by something like "This article is about the general class of rifles, specific models named AR-15 can be found at AR-15 disambiguation." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 240D:0:4F4D:A600:45FB:D67C:E56E:63A5 (talk) 07:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I see "...should" this and "...should" that... except, they don't, do they? That's why I brought it up in the first place, to A) ask why "AR-15", "Ar-15" & "AR15" wouldn't link to the "AR-15" dab page (that just makes no sense) and to B) highlight the problems that can occur when a local consensus affects a project wide issue, such as four (4) guys deciding on a controversial re-direct. (4 guys, now it makes sense). - WOLFchild 15:26, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC Notice

An RfC related to this topic has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles. –dlthewave ☎ 17:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So I guess we're moving the whole thing again? To a page other than the project page that all the affected articles fall under the scope of? Why bother having projects? Why bother have a WP:AGF guideline? And, why bother having any kind of neutrality guidelines if a clearly involved editor is not only writing the RfC, but arbitrarily deciding on his own where to have it? But whatever... I guess I'll go and (not) !vote over there. Are we closing related discussions here now as well? (it would be nice to try and keep everything in one place) - WOLFchild 19:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Controversial page move

Modern sporting rifle has been "boldly" moved to AR-15 style rifle by an editor who has repeatedly voiced anti-gun sentiment. Their reason given on the talk page were;

• "Modern sporting rifle is a euphemism that the gun industry created in 2009 to describe modular semi-automatic rifles. The phrase is an artful attempt to recast weapons such as the MCX and the AR-15 (and its variants) as all-American toys. Never mind “quiet and deadly” and “close-quarters battle”: Modern sporting rifle conjures up images of aristocrats riding with their hounds, vacationers knocking clays out of the sky, and ruddy-faced athletes enjoying their autumns in Carhartt jackets and mud-spattered ATVs. The term is a genius act of marketing, meant to bring these deadly weapons into the mainstream and keep them there. It’s also disingenuous hokum that exists to cloud debate, like calling a used car “pre-owned.” Omar Mateen Had a “Modern Sporting Rifle"
  

I certainly hope that going forward, editors here will follow the guidelines before making any further controversial page moves. - WOLFchild 19:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Would have been nice to be notified of this discussion :-). In any case, even the discussion on this page is using the heading “Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings” (not “Use of Modern Sporting Rifles in Mass Shootings"). "AR-15 style rifle" is WP:COMMONNAME. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily "starting a discussion" about a page move, the onus fell to you to do that before you moved that page (but you didn't). I'm just posting a notice of the move to the talk page of the project that actually covers that article, like you should have (but you didn't). You seem to think that this project, and anyone associated with it, have no business contributing to any decision making about the articles that actually fall under the scope of this project. (Something about "bias" you said? Pfft! Talk about bias...) Lastly, I'm under no obligation to notify you of my posts. - WOLFchild 02:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• "an editor who has repeatedly voiced anti-gun sentiment"? Well, some editors have pro-gun sentiments, and some editors don't like K-pop or figure skating (those are all fools, of course). Please remember that we are here to write an encyclopedia, not to advocate for guns. There is no indication that K.e.coffman is editing against Misplaced Pages's guidelines, so I would appreciate it if you left those accusations/suggestions/sneers out of your comments--thanks. Drmies (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Same goes for you, Drmies... I will be pretty pissed off if I find that you have given even slightest hint of accusing me, or even remotely suggesting, that I don't like k-pop or figure skating, they are tops in my books, so let's just be clear about that. As for the page move, by my count so far, about 24 editors have contributed to that discussion, 20 of whom wouldn't have had the chance to otherwise. I think doing it this way forms a much more solid, community-wide consensus that can't be challenged later, and therefore reduces potential disruption. I think that's a good thing. - WOLFchild 04:19, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

2018 United States gun violence protests

Project members are invited to help expand and improve the 2018 United States gun violence protests article. Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Notice of page move request

A request has been made to rename Modern sporting rifle to "AR-15 style rifle". Please see Talk:Modern sporting rifle#Requested move 22 February 2018 for more information and if you wish to join the discussion. - WOLFchild 02:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

WP:GUNS

Hey project members--please consider a hatnote pointing to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun control: WP:GUNS leads to the project, and I wonder if it's not also a shortcut that people consider when they're looking for the Arb case. Thanks! Drmies (talk) 16:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Are statements by the NRA WP:RS for views/opinions of the NRA

I've started a WP:RSN discussion on the topic here ] Springee (talk) 01:42, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Is Draft:Janz-Präzisionstechnik notable? (German revolver maker)

Anyone interested, please take a look at Draft:Janz-Präzisionstechnik. It appears to be written by a non-native speaker and needs some cleanup, and has only a few cites to German publications. If you have opinions, please just add them to the top of the Draft itself and sign. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I know those revolvers. notable? = yes. technical highlight=interchangebility. see translated story as notable as f.ex. Korth or Mateba. Precision product but much to expensive for normal use :-( greets --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 13:07, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

A Voice from Germany

Hi folks, i read and feel that here is a lot of discussion concerning gun-laws, "gun-sporting", and sorrowfully mass-shootings. In Germany the wp:firearms-project had identical problems. We felt unable to handle political requests and discussions. We retracted to the technical side and view of objects. We gave away: articles concerning gun-laws, articles concerning gun-use, articles concerning sports with weapons, articles concerning Category:Military animals + Category:Mythological weapons etc.pp. Why fight things you can't win? Give away to Portal:Law and Portal:Society and Portal:History and Portal:Sports whenever you can. If they like to they can write whatever they want. Remember and argue that firearms-articles are only a technical description - not more. Remember Template:Talk header. Discussions concerning "A human society is a group of people related to each other through continued relations, or a large social grouping sharing the same geographical or virtual territory, same interests, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. " can not be content of technical article. Cheers --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 13:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi Tom, thanks for the post. The "giving away of articles" is an interesting idea, but in the end, (to me at least), it's a mark of failure, to communicate and form consensus. We have a Firearms Project for a reason; to oversee and improve all firearms-related articles (predominantly civilian as opposed to military). There seems to be a conception here, (more of a misconception really), that Project Firearms is some kind of "club" and it's members are all rabid pro-gun enthusiasts. The fact is, anyone can contribute to any firearms-related article, and anyone can call themselves a "member" or "contributor" here, (I believe there may be a push on to change monikers from the former to the latter). Even the most staunch anti-gun advocate can be a part of this project. If anything, it should help bring balance, as long as they, (well, everyone really) can remember WP's policies and guidelines on balance and neutrality. It's been a struggle lately, especially since the latest mass-shooting. There has been significant failure here so far, on the part many users, from both ends of the gun debate spectrum, to remember those P&G's on balance and neutrality, as well as to adhere to WP's core values of communication and cooperation. I can only hope that once some inflamed emotions have died down, common sense and collaboration will take over and any affected articles that need it, will be brought up to WP's standards, without having to pass off the responsibility for that to other projects. Thanks again, and all the best to you Wikipedians in Deutschland WOLFkind 04:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

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