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Criteria for inclusion in Births and Deaths sections of Misplaced Pages date articles

• Trivia / general-data-overflow aspect of the problem — many view the info as trivia (unless there's some other aspect of significance / notability) and/or recognize the rabbit hole of unbounded additions. Trivia in and of itself isn't truly prohibited per se (the closest is either the MoS entry that suggests trivia be integrated with prose, but there isn't really prose to integrate it with in this situation, WP:NOTSTAT, or list selection criteria/common selection criteria/WP:LISTPEOPLE).
  At its core, though, this can be read as more an argument that's a subset of WP:UNDUE with regard to the other entries in the article. For example, a single entry for something that could possibly meet WP:NEVENT—something that truly can tie directly to a date and be expanded upon or linked to an article section with substantial content—can be UNDUE-ly dwarfed by hundreds of merely-incidental births/deaths on a day that aren't, themselves, significant when compared to what the person actually did later in life (i.e., the thing(s) that made them notable), and having hundreds of those may amplify that disparity, creating noise for those looking for things closer to NEVENTs rather than closer to NPEOPLE. That said, some feel that the listing of births and deaths is something readers might expect to begin with, and that in a way, many of the currently-listed entries on those pages might subjectively also be "trivial" for different reasons.
• Article-quality determinants — e.g., "only Good Articles" or "only class-B and above articles." Some mentioned that the Wikiproject ratings are arbitrary and anyone can change an article's rating, while many of the most recognizable biographies (i.e., entries that most would probably agree "definitely should be there) might not even be true WP:GA due to any number of reasons.
• Use categories instead — plenty of categories already exist for this (or are auto-populated because of infoboxen), though some argue that categories are inherently limiting (i.e., no summarizing blurb) or that categories shouldn't be created for arbitrary correlations (i.e., simply sharing the same month/day of birth).
• Split to separate lists or remove altogether — rather than piling into the main day article.
• Notability of the notable — Decide on criteria for who's "more notable" than another and/or whether CSB/BIAS issues should be exceptions. Presumably sub-guidelines of some sort would need to be drawn up.
• Wikidata — an argument was made that Wikidata may fit the bill for this type of discovery of information.
• Less a WP:CSB/WP:BIAS problem; possibly more just a problem — more an observation from me: though systemic-bias issues were raised, the bulk of the conversation centered more on the lack of listing criteria irrespective of cultural/locality-based bias issues.
• No problem — some feel there's no problem.

Given this close feels like it's getting close to the length of the discussion (sorry), I'd suggest the next step be more-specific RFC questions along the lines of these suggestions.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per previous discussions over at Misplaced Pages talk:Days of the year, it seems that there is some level of support for some kind of inclusion criteria for what articles to include on the Births and Deaths sections. There are some concerns that these sections are too-Western centric (i.e. people from North America or Europe are over-represented).

The question now is: should we have some kind of guideline for inclusion in Births and Dates articles? Or is the status-quo fine? In my case, my pet proposal is that a proposed inclusion criteria would be similar to what's currently done at WP:DYK, where no more than half of each set can be about US-related topics. Though of course, other editors are free to propose other proposals here. Narutolovehinata5 03:16, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

• Just axe these sections. They're useless trivia. KMF (talk) 04:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with KMF that this is trivia. There is no possible way to develop an objective criteria for inclusion, and any volunteer time wasted on this would be better spent actually improving the encyclopedia. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:10, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

If you're reading the Misplaced Pages article about a particular day of the year, I would surmise that probably you are very much in the market for useless trivia! CapitalSasha ~ talk 05:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

With the exception of a few incidents which are frequently referred to by their dates (e.g September 11 attacks), or dates which represent holidays on the Gregorian calendar (e.g Storming of the Bastille, which is the source of Bastille Day), all data on date pages are trivia. I see no reason why it's any less trivia that the Titanic sank on April 15 than that the actress Emma Watson was born on this date. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:59, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

• The best option in my opinion would be to branch out "Born on ..." and "Died on ..." into separate articles (many of these lists online, but lots of misinformation, and none that are verifiable), maintained by bots and linked to on the DoY pages. This would reduce editor time spent to practically zero, does away with arbitrary inclusion criteria, and makes sure the info is still there for people who want it. The only objection that I've come across is that this could be done by category instead, but this makes it a nightmare to sort by year, and prevents the brief summary of what the people were notable for. ‑‑Yodin 12:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
• I think the inclusion could be based on quality of linked articles. For example, limit inclusion to articles that have 500 words of pure prose and have no major clean up tags. Renata (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

That makes sense for a internal stuff...but that's not exactly an encyclopaedic inclusion criteria? That's the same problem with Narutolovehinata5's proposal - "than half of each set can be about US-related topics." is fine for internal inclusion, but not for an objective encyclopaedia. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:50, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, Misplaced Pages is mature enough that truly notable people generally have bios that are pretty decent. Of course, there are all kinds of exceptions and anomalies. But I think it would be very useful to have some sort of arbitrary criteria based on article quality to avoid lengthy discussions on who is more notable. Renata (talk) 03:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

In my view a notability criterion would be relevant, but that may be different from an article quality criterion. Many highly important people from (e.g.) the 18th century have short, underdeveloped articles, while many largely irrelevant sports or music (mainly US and UK) people from today have lengthy well developed articles maintained by fans. So a quality criterion developed along lines of development of article, would not solve the problem raised at the start of this post and in fact may even worsen it. Splitting off list of births and deaths on this date as Yodin suggests would not be perfect, but would at least largely solve the problem. This not in the least because such lists would allow much more entries, without overwhelming the rest of the entries on the day article (thus taking the sting out of discussion there). Arnoutf (talk) 07:11, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

• It's simple. Include every single individual who was born/died on any given day. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: Wouldn't such list articles (assuming the sections get split, as proposed above by some users) end up being very long and potentially falling afoul of WP:IINFO? Narutolovehinata5 13:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Policy has nothing to do with it. It's too unweildy. As a quick Fermi approximation, Misplaced Pages has 5.5 million articles. If 10% of those were about people (not an unreasonable guess) that'd be 550,000 biographies here at Misplaced Pages. We'd guess about 1/365 would have any random birth or death date. That's approximately 1500 people per day born, and 1500 people per day die (a bit less, since some of those people haven't died yet). Aproximately 3000 lines of text just to keep track of birthdates and deathdates is unreasonable. --Jayron32 16:11, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

• I don’t know if this is possible tech-wise, but what would be helpful to the reader would be to group “on this day” entries into sub-lists... non-birthday events that occurred on the day go in one section... birthdays in another (I would even divide the birthday listings up into sub-sub-sections by profession groups: Performing arts, business, politics, etc). This would help readers USE the lists more efficiently... to more easily find the information they are looking for. Blueboar (talk) 11:35, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
• Could this be better handled by categorifying the data? That way, the category "Born on XXXX" would automagically be populated. Surely there is some better semi-automated way to handle this better than relying on people randomly coming by to add a name to a page. --Jayron32 15:11, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
  • See above: Categories don't allow readers to see a brief summary of each person, or even display which year they were born. Also, if you wanted to try to sort these categories by year it would be problematic and very counterintuitive (even if you add leading zeroes to account for years < 1000), B.C. dates would still be sorted alphabetically (so 1 BC first, 300 BC last), followed by A.D. sorted alphabetically (1 AD first, 2017 last). If not, then you end up with just an unreadable list of names sorted alphabetically, something I doubt any of the readers (for example those mentioned above by CapitalSasha and Od Mishehu) would be interested in. With Wikidata, it should be straightforward to get a bot to maintain these lists as articles, rather than resorting to categories of use to neither man nor bot. What do you reckon? ‑‑Yodin 16:17, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm against this, primary because I fear it would have potential to creep over to the "years" article, in which the inclusion of everyone that has a wikipage is very useful. I also glimpsed at two random dates in January and it did not seem that outrageous, when you consider the attempted scope of the article. (Granted this was on the desktop version) We could include tools to make it easier to navigate however on mobile,but I'm not in favor of limiting the amount of people that could be there. --Deathawk (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I would say that, in line with some others here, we should get rid of these sections; they seem irrelevant to information about the date (so most people on the page for a given date probably won't care about this information) and it's inherently too hard to come up with an objective standard for who should and shouldn't be included. Perhaps a set of categories for people who were born or died on a given date would be an improvement (i.e. Category:People born on January 1, etc.) Every Morning (there's a halo...) 00:34, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I think much of this debate comes from a fear that these pages will get too long too quickly and will become out of control. This, for the most part, is unfounded, as the pages are edited by humans and most people will not actually have time to edit these in such a way that it gets unmanageable. And if they do, we can split it off into a separate article. I agree with a sentiment explained already in this threat that the people who go into a date article probably are looking for a list of who was born and who died on that day. What I'm saying is, I don't think this is a feature that our readers are annoyed by, so much as editors are, and we should be in service to the reader. --Deathawk (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Deathawk's position. It is trivia, but the reader looking up a date like January 30 probably is looking for this kind of trivia. Coming up with DYK-like restrictions for it seems to serve editors more than readers, IMHO. Double sharp (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

• No. Critreria is not needed. L3X1 Become a New Page Patroller! (distænt write) 15:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

There has to be some way to manage these lists. Right now, Category:1980s births has approximately 15,000 people per year. Given that everyone born will die, and that Misplaced Pages continues to exist, that's roughly 1,000 new entries per date every ten years. That's untenable. The argument that this won't happen because people won't do it strikes me as flawed because that's not a guarantee that it won't happen, and it wouldn't be hard to write a bot to populate those lists or for one determined editor to do so. The fact that it hasn't happened yet is probably due more to the fact that these lists are currently curated, even though we don't have clear guidelines. Personally, I think it'd be best to create a new article People born on (x date) and leave a tiny subset of the most notable (determined perhaps by restricting it to a certain number per article or by set criteria) on the actual date article itself.

As to the other arguments, I agree that these lists are largely trivia, but that does seem to be the purpose of the DOY articles, and I’m okay with that. I don't think a category suffices because it doesn't include the brief descriptions and because categories are merely alphabetical and not chronological. -- irn (talk) 14:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

• A summary of my opinion:

1. These sections are of value and are the kind of thing people expect to see in an article about a given year or date.
2. They should not be allowed to become too long. 100 names in each section should be the absolute limit.
3. An effort should be made to ensure a spread of nationalities, occupations, and historical period.

There will be a lot of work needed to establish criteria but to me it seems essential that we make the effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deb (talk • contribs)

• If nothing is done we'll have to put up with seeing the Births and Deaths sections grow to enormous length – I recently saw someone going through methodically adding all the footballers from a particular country, and we have no rule against this. I've estimated potentially 3,000 names under Births for each day. Otherwise we need criteria for "super-notability" to go on these lists. Something on the lines of Deb's suggestion may work if we have subsections for each date with really tight and unarguable eligibility, such as "Monarchs, presidents and prime ministers born on this day", "Nobel prizewinners born on this day", "Olympic gold medallists born on this day" ... then "... died on this day", all chosen to ensure Deb's "spread of nationalities, occupations, and historical period": Noyster (talk), 17:19, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I like that suggestion a lot. The unarguable eligibility for super-notable subsections seems a little difficult to me, though, when dealing with entertainers and sportspeople. (Michael Jackson and Pelé come immediately to mind as examples.) I think it should be doable, but we might need to elaborate the criteria elsewhere and just label the subsections "Entertainers" and "Athletes", for example. -- irn (talk) 17:42, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

• Any notability criteria is likely to be subjective and devolve into protracted discussions over personal preference of notability, to the detriment of time spent actually improving the encyclopedia. I suggest adopting the type of standard used at "On this day - born/died" which is (I think) B-class articles or above. This would encourage editors to improve their favourite biographies to B-class to get them included on the day page, and would also be an objective standard. I have seen editors going through the day pages removing names which they personally consider non-notable and it's very subjective of course - "not her, she's a porn star and that's not on" etc etc. It should also be easy to get this automated if it's pulling on the pools of B, A, GA and FA articles only. MurielMary (talk) 09:39, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

B-class isn't exactly a objective criteria..anyone can change ratings.Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:44, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• I really like the incentive for editors to improve the articles. While it might not be a perfect solution, I think it would address the concerns of editors who work on DoY articles, in that the lists won't become unmanagable (for at least the next decade or so), and we shouldn't allow the potential fixing mentioned above to prevent a good idea from being implemented. It also seems to follow the pattern of WP:ITN, in that it's not just about "more or less notable", but quality of their coverage on Misplaced Pages. Would love to help with an improvement drive to address WP:BIAS on this. ‑‑Yodin 12:39, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

• Just tossing out an idea here... If we really want to base inclusion on article quality, then perhaps the criteria should be “good article” status. “Good article” status is a more defined process which means the article has been reviewed and has achieved a substantive quality standard. The down side is that some notable subjects may not be listed (if the article about them is poorly written) ... the up side is that this would encourage editors to work on these articles, and bring them up to “good article” standards. Blueboar (talk) 13:37, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The snag with this is - what do we do if, for example, "Michael Jackson" has not achieved GA status? Deb (talk) 09:39, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Work on the Michael Jackson article and GET it to “Good article” status? Blueboar (talk) 11:17, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• There are 6,490 biographies classified as GA and above, making about 18 per day of the year. No Thomas Jefferson, no Mussolini, no Beethoven, no Mozart ... All these are B's and I'm starting to think we may have to go with B-class and above, recognising the flaws. I'd have preferred to base it on importance of person rather than quality of article, but neither Top-importance nor Vital articles will yield nearly enough names, and the difficulties of establishing any other criterion of importance are obvious: Noyster (talk), 11:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm thinking limiting it to B articles might work quite well. Deb (talk) 11:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The problem I see with limiting this to a certain class of article is that it's not exactly user friendly. I imagine that the majority of editors adding content to these pages are relatively inexperienced to Misplaced Pages, and would be unaware of what a "B class article" means. It would be devastating for them to come and have there edit reverted. I could imagine some editors who might prove useful to the project being turned away from it as a result. It's just too much CREEP. One thing that might work is instead language that encourages the inclusion of "high class" articles as opposed to underdeveloped ones. A good example is how Misplaced Pages: Unusual Articles, states that the articles should be of "decent quality" but does not further expand on what that means, as a result the editors somewhat police themselves. --Deathawk (talk) 03:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

"Decent quality" is rather subjective, and, if editors got together and put a definition on "decent quality" I suspect they would just be re-inventing the wheel - WP already has definitions of quality in the Stub/Start/C/B/A/GA etc scale. I think In The News has a definition of "decent quality" for inclusion in their corner of the main page which is something like "no orange tags, all statements cited, no copy vios of images" but this is a pretty low bar and I think using something this minimal wouldn't go far to reduce the quantity of articles on the day pages. What I've noticed at In The News is that someone nominates an article for inclusion, someone else tags it with an orange tag, then the nominator gets to work fixing up the article, the orange tag is removed and it gets published on the main page. Good for the encyclopedia to have all that effort going into improving articles. MurielMary (talk) 10:48, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I still maintain that this is problem mostly imagined. Personally I find it a bit ridiculous to have a Misplaced Pages article for every day of the year, but I don't really see it as problematic and if people find it interesting I don't mind either way. Having said that if you include a list of every date and have a listing of birthdays and death dates for the page, then it stands to reason that you are going to get a lot of listings . However this is the purpose of the page and it is fulfilling that roll. To somehow modify that list, you are now making it actually less useful, and it's falling farther and farther from the purpose. --Deathawk (talk) 20:17, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

@Deathawk: There are over 1.5 million biography articles at the moment, that's more than 4,000 births for each day, plus deaths, with more being added all the time. If we don't attempt to curate them, they would quickly reach article size limits. I would personally agree that complete lists make sense, and aren't a problem, but they would have to be split from the main pages. But either way, we've got three options I suppose:

1. No births & deaths on the DoY pages (and optionally splitting the lists into separate articles).
2. Having a list without the names of people that very few readers would have interest in (e.g. a very obscure mid 20th century sportsman compared to, say, Alexander the Great) – again, this could be done in conjunction with separate lists, but doesn't have to be, as at present.
3. Ignoring the DoY articles, allowing them to fill up, quickly becoming very slow, to the point of being unreadable on mobiles, and eventually reaching the absolute article limit, preventing editing, etc..

A fair number of editors are trying to prevent #3 from happening, but it's a complete pain without guidelines that would make the process easier (and hopefully automated, to free us up to do more positive editing!). I guess you're not actively trying to prevent this from happening, but opposing it on the grounds that it's imagined makes me think you don't do much editing on DoY pages? Either way, it seems that for the first time in a long while we're finally pretty close to reaching a consensus – would be great to reach the point where a clear guideline proposal could be made. ‑‑Yodin 21:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

A bit late to the discussion, but the original question was whether the pages were too America-centric. I've been attempting to correct this by deliberately adding people from around the world. A problem that comes up often is that many of these are stubs, or need content from another wiki. Add to that the new requirement that dates of birth and death need good Misplaced Pages references, and it's a lot more work to edit these pages with quality content.

For the record, I guess I'd go with option 2 above. There's a lot of interest in "born on this day" and "died on this day", so I think births and deaths are relevant. Natalie Bueno Vasquez (talk) 06:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

As for the proposals above which suggests that all articles that are mentioned in Births/Deaths sections need to be at least B-class, I'm not sure it would work in filtering out systemic bias; if anything, it could only help worsen it. Some articles on even the most well-known Western people are at C-class or lower, meaning that they'd have to be left out; on the other hand, from experience, articles on non-American or non-European topics tend to be of a lower quality as well, meaning that even very popular names wouldn't be mentioned. So while article quality could potentially work as a standard for inclusion, it also has its drawbacks and might not solve the problem at all. As for the suggestion of simply making separate list articles and listing all births/deaths there, that would be wildly impractical: such articles would be way too long. Narutolovehinata5 07:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Lists of births & deaths could easily be broken down (either by the people's roles as suggested by another editor above, or by century). ‑‑Yodin 09:58, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

• Cut births and deaths entirely. This sort of navigation can be done on en-wiki via categories. Searching this sort of question is best done via Wikidata. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:40, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• I would support removing those sections completely. Besides the constant stream of non-notable people who get added to them, it's really questionable how useful that trivia is. Make it a category so that people can use cross-cat tools to find whatever intersection they're looking for. If we have to keep these lists, split them off into "List of people born on X" type articles (and then delete them as trivia...) Matt Deres (talk) 18:21, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
• Please don't axe the "list of people born on this day" sections. Please don't. Keep them the way they are (or split them into a new thing). I strongly, STRONGLY SUPPORT Option #2. This "pointless trivia" is the exact type of thing that someone searching for a page about a given day of the year would want to see. Natalie puts it well above: there's legitimately "a lot of interest in "born on this day" and "died on this day", so I think births and deaths are relevant." Paintspot Infez (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
• Isn't this the sort of thing that WikiData should be able to cover - i.e. queries such as people born on 1st Jan 1900, footballers who died in Feb 1901 etc? DexDor 06:35, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Some observations, in part to provide a summing up, & in to offer some :

• IMHO, the consensus is leaning towards keeping this list. (Disclaimer, I favor keeping it, so YMMV here.)
• It has been proposed that we limit the number of people in these lists to 100. Or some such number.
• Assuming we limit the number to 100, this means we would need to compile a list of almost 37,000 more than notable people. (To be precise, between 36,500 & 36,600 depending on how many notable people we wish to include for February 29.) Of course, this list has already been started: take the names of people already in the Days of the year, & add/subtract from that. (From glancing at January 30, the date Double sharp mentioned above, it appears that a lot of professional athletes will be purged from this list.)
• Any such list of more than notable people would need to be balanced out between the various categories, such as "politicians/royalty", "religious figures", "writers/poets/playwrights", "artists", "sports", "military" & (the inevitable) miscellaneous. IMHO, having set percentages will force people towards adding only the more important figures in these categories. (And might add a little more encouragement to improving articles.)
• Any such list will need to add a lot more people who are not from Europe & North America. (Glancing at January 30, I only found 3 Japanese people, 1 Brazilian pro athlete I mean 4 Japanese people, 1 Brazilian pro athlete, 1 Vietnamese king, & 1 president of El Savador -- & no other people from Asia/Africa/South America. I would be surprised if no other notable people from those parts of the world were born on that date.)
• Having worked a lot on historical articles, I can confidently predict that any such list will be heavily weighted towards more recent names. It is difficult to find the years various notable people living before AD 1000 were born or died in; finding the day of birth for one is the equivalent of winning millions in the lottery! (It would be nice to find a way to indicate the approximate year a more than notable person was born or died in, but for whom more precise information is lacking. But that desideratum is tangential to this discussion.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:03, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

• Suggestion - why don't we have this done by categories, which is what they are for? A bot could add Category:People born on 27 November to everyone with that birthday. A bot could similarly add Category:People who died on 11 June to everyone who died on the 11th of June. It's one or two additional categories per biographical article, but some have hundreds anyway. Then you can just click to that category if what you really want is to see who was born on a particular day. Having 5-6000 articles in a category is not an issue at all. You could have a direct link to the two categories on each date article (so 1 January would have a See Also pointing at Category:People born on 1 January and Category:People who died on 1 January, and so on. Fish+Karate 12:29, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
  • We don't create categories for trivial or anecdotical similarities between articles. Years of birth and death indicate the period in which someone lived: day/month of death indicates nothing. That Farzad Bazoft and Charles Harrelson share the same day and month of death is a meaningless coincidence. Please don't create such categories. Fram (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
    • It's just a suggestion. Your view on someone's day/month of birth/death being meaningless is just that: your view. Fish+Karate 14:29, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
      • Well, no, it's not "just my view". Apart from pseudoscience like astrology, there is not really much meaning to be found in the coincidence that people died on the same day (considering that we only have 366 such combinations to start with). Feel free to show me wrong, but please don't dismiss someone else's point as "just" their view when you don't have any actual evidence that it is actually meaningful. Thisis not some random objection, but the essence of categories, which should be, according to Misplaced Pages:Categorization, about "essential—defining—characteristics of a topic" (and further "A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article." See WP:TRIVIALCAT for more on this. "Note that this form of overcategorization also applies to grouping people by trivial circumstances of their deaths". Fram (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Quick comment on the numbers here. @Jayron32 and Yodin: the number given by Yodin of "over 1.5 million" is probably from the value given at Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Biography articles by quality statistics - Jayron32's guess of 550,000 was a bit out, and in any case there is no need to guess, any well-designed website or database would have these statistics available, and with a bit of work it is possible to maintain statistics like "number of biographical articles". The current value at Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Biography articles by quality statistics of 1,558,032 articles is still only an estimate though as: (a) not all biographical articles are tagged as such on their talk page by the WikiProject Biography template (the number untagged is a bit hard to estimate); and (b) not all the articles tagged by WikiProject Biography are 'single person' biographies - that 1,558,032 figures includes a lot of articles about musical groups, and other 'group biographies'. Another estimate is to do some sort of count over the categories and subcategories of Category:Births by year. Number of living people (again, if tagged correctly) is at Category:Living people, currently 852,728. There may be other ways to do these estimates that are more accurate. (Over time, I think the proportion of biographical articles has remained fairly steady at about 20-30% of the whole encyclopedia, as measured in terms of number of articles. What is more surprising is that living people make up over 50% of those articles.) Carcharoth (talk) 12:34, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, I believe used those figures. There were a number of lists, books, categories, disambigs, templates, files and redirects etc., but they amounted to a small fraction of the total articles. Hadn't considered untagged articles or group bios, but I think between 1 and 2 million articles seems a pretty reasonably estimate. But even if was only half a million, it's more than the DoY articles could handle. ‑‑Yodin 10:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles

The responses to the first question - "Should an article about a specific firearm model include information about its use in mass shootings?" are varied, and the consensus has been difficult to easily evaluate:

• 21 people argued for 1A (Do not include), but I must note some did so and then tempered their comment by noting that there may be exceptions (see, for example, responses from power~enwiki or Icewhiz)
• 21 went for 1C (Include a paragraph-style section)
• 21 opted for 1D (Evaluate how much to include on a case-by-case basis)

1A is diametrically different from 1C and 1D, in that 1A suggests information about a firearm model's use in mass shooting should not be within the relevant firearm article(s), and 1C or 1D, which either say information should or may be included; bearing that in mind, there's a clear majority that believes at least in some cases it is appropriate (42-21, not that we vote count). As arguments on all sides do cite, mostly correctly, various policies, in particular I do note the arguments made about WP:COATRACK (such as by Chris Troutman and Guy Macon), which, along with arguments made about a single RFC not proscribing content for all firearms articles, are strong enough to suggest to me that a hard and fast rule is not what the majority of the participating community is after here. Therefore I surmise that the consensus for question 1, based in policy, is 1D, namely that this should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, with care taken to avoid trivia and a strong reliance on reliable sources.

The second question - "should AR-15 style rifle include information about the category's prevalence in mass shootings?" is a little more straightforward:

• 16 people wanted 2A (Do not include)
• 37 plumped for 2C (Include a paragraph-style section)
• 9 suggested 2D (Discuss at Talk:AR-15 style rifle)

The clear consensus here is that in this case 2C is appropriate, and a section on AR-15 style rifle about its prevalence in mass shootings should be included in the article. This dovetails fairly neatly with 1D, in that in this case there are ample reliable and non-trivial sources that have been written concerning the prevalence of this weapon in mass shootings.

There is further discussion down this thread about the wording of the RFC and about canvassing. I'm not going to address those, my aim has been to close this RFC and gauge community consensus as best I can. As I said earlier, please contact me on my talk page if you have any questions.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should articles about firearms include information about mass shootings?–dlthewave ☎ 17:11, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Background

After several recent mass shooting events, edit warring has taken place over whether or not an article about a specific firearm model should cover the weapon's use in mass shootings. This has been centered around various AR-15 style rifles, but the argument could apply to any firearm used to commit a crime.

There is also disagreement over whether or not AR-15 style rifle should include information about the category's prevalence in mass shootings, which has received significant RS coverage.

Relevant WikiProject Firearms essay

"In order for a criminal use to be notable enough for inclusion in the article on the gun used, it must meet some criteria. For instance, legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage (ex. ban on mail-order of firearms after use of the Carcano in JFK's assassination would qualify). Similarly, if its notoriety greatly increased (ex. the Intratec TEC-DC9 became infamous as a direct result of Columbine). As per WP:UNDUE, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.". Therefore, the addition of said information should be limited to a simple link in the "See also" section."

Relevant talk page discussions

• Talk:AR-15 style rifle#Use in mass shootings in the United States
• Talk:Smith & Wesson#Stoneman Douglas High School shooting
• Talk:Colt AR-15#Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2018 (2)
• Talk:Ruger Mini-14#Rfc: Add major incidents to article? (permalink)
• Talk:SIG MCX/Archive 1#RFC: Is the Orlando shooting relevant?

The first three discussions were consolidated to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Firearms#Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings. The centralized discussion has developed significant support for an RfC outside of WikiProject Firearms.

Terminology

Editors should be aware that there is some confusion surrounding the AR-15 name. "AR-15" is a trademark of Colt and technically only applies to the Colt AR-15. However, many manufacturers produce their own generic versions based on the same design, and these are often referred to as "AR-15" by the media and general public. Within Misplaced Pages, AR-15 style rifle covers the general category of weapons that use the AR-15 design. The article was recently moved from Modern sporting rifle and the two terms are used somewhat interchangeably. Efforts to reduce this confusion is outside the scope of this RfC.

Survey Questions

Two questions, pick one answer for each:

• 1. Should an article about a specific firearm model include information about its use in mass shootings?
  • A. Do not include
  • B. Include links to notable shootings in the "See Also" section (Current WikiProject Firearms essay)
  • C. Include a paragraph-style section
  • D. Evaluate how much to include on a case-by-case basis
• 2. Should AR-15 style rifle include information about the category's prevalence in mass shootings?
  • A. Do not include
  • B. Include only statistical data
  • C. Include a paragraph-style section
  • D. Discuss at Talk:AR-15 style rifle Option added 27 Feb 18

Straw-poll: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles

• Situational: 1. C | 2. C - In the case of the AR-15, I am convinced that a neutral paragraph can be forged. These paragraphs should only be added if the school shooting in question has had an impact on the gun, or new regulations have been put forward as a result. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current guidelines are sufficient. If a particular instance changes it, then we decide then. For example, the Douglas High shooting may, in fact, lead to legislative changes that result in the use being particularly notable. Currently, it has not. So the rush to make this change is premature. Slow down. Many editors I see trying to put this everywhere (dare I say spam it) seem to be more driven by something other than a desire for accuracy. And whether or not well-intentioned people incorrectly use the term AR15, using a Ruger AR-556 doesn't belong in the article about the Colt AR15. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Depends (1D and 2C). More specifically:
  • For individual firearms (e.g. SIG MCX), firearm manufacturers (e.g. Smith & Wesson), and firearm types/classes (e.g. assault rifle or combat shotgun): Depends. Barring exceptional circumstances such as those suggested by Knowledgekid87, a major cultural impact (i.e. Tommy gun (Saint Valentine's Day Massacre), Carcano (Assassination of JFK), or AR-18 (Provisional IRA) level), or a highly-publicised lawsuit against the manufacturer, they should generally not contain information on criminal use.
  • For Colt AR-15 and AR-15 style rifle: Yes, there should be neutral, factually correct, and in-context information about mass shootings, given the high level of coverage in the media - but which also notes that the media is often incorrect.

  Please ping me if anyone has any questions about my comments here; I won't be watching this discussion. ansh666 18:10, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  (Changed 1C to 1D, since we're using that now. ansh666 03:14, 23 February 2018 (UTC))

• 1C if indeed that coverage is there. (Impugning others' motives, not a good thing.) If someone holds up a bank with a gun of a certain type, or shoots their neighbor with it in some dispute, that's never going to deliver the coverage necessary: that coverage needs to specifically address the weapon, and political discussion about the weapon will help--et cetera. This is nothing new.2C but duh, we're going to need a bigger paragraph. And, as I indicated below, the Colt AR-15 article should already include a brief summary of what weapons based on it have been used for. Drmies (talk) 18:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/2C Assuming that sufficient reliable sources exist to craft NPOV text then Misplaced Pages needs to address the issues brought up by the sources. I would not consider lots of articles consisting of mere mentions that a given weapon/class of weapons were used to be 'sufficient' in this context. - Mere mentions in sources are sufficient for mentioning and linking the weapon/type from the event article but we should avoid back linking that would result in "this weapon was used in list of events" sections. Jbh 18:31, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  I guess this is the same as the 'D' options that are being discussed. What I am against is any wiki-project guideline that relegates reference to criminal acts to a 'See also' if there are sufficient, detailed sources to support more. I also am opposed to laundry lists of crimes being placed in the articles. In other words - follow the sources per Misplaced Pages's content policies, not per some wiki-project local consensus. Jbh 15:04, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1 = A...2 = A Oppose addition of crime and mass shooting content --RAF910 (talk) 18:36, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  Its no secret that guns are used in crimes and mass shootings though. If for example an AR-15 is modified due to an event then it would be notable enough for inclusion as an effect on how the gun is used going forward. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  Yes..."Its no secret that guns are used in crimes and mass shootings though." In fact it's such common knowledge that there is absolutely no reason to even mention it in these articles. Like knives, we all know that they are used in crimes. In fact, world wide knives are the weapon of choice for criminals and killers, but we don't mention it in every knife article, do we.--RAF910 (talk) 19:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  If a type of knife is modified or banned as a result of a deadly event then yes of course we would mention it per WP:N. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:59, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  OK, since were going down the rabbit hole anyway...I recommend that this policy be applied to all knife, weapons, vehicle, aircraft, anaimal and anything else that could possibly be used to commit crimes and kill people pages. We can call it "WP:Murder, Death, Kill". for short--RAF910 (talk) 22:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

  We already do that... under aircraft types we have accidents and notable incidents, under car types we have recall mentions. The point is when people are killed and the killing device is changed to make improvements then it is noted. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1A 1D - 2B 2D - But it all depends, if a shooting took place and the specific model of AR used is important it should be mentioned on that models page. If it is general that an AR was used but the model is not mentioned or notable it should be on the AR-15 style rifle article. More specifically for individual models eg. Colt AR-15 and the like information should only be included if it lead to legislation or similar. An example would be Port Arthur massacre (Australia) where the Colt AR-15 was used and kicked off the legislation to ban guns. PackMecEng (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Updated vote to 1D & 2D after discussions PackMecEng (talk) 16:37, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C iff the sources warrant it for the specific model, otherwise 1B, or at least a link the use of AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings (rather than individual shootings). 2C should most definitely be done. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C and 2C. Especially 2C. The amount of coverage that the AR-15 has gotten in relation to mass shootings (whether rightly or wrongly) is way too extensive to ignore. It'd actually be a WP:NPOV and WP:DUE violation NOT to include it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - any changes to the current policy (noted as "1B". This !vote is not based in any political ideology, (not "anti-gun" or "pro-gun") but simply the projects guidelines, such as WP:NPOV. If we start adding "paragraph-sized entries" to the articles of any firearm, or firearm type, brand or maker involved, these articles will quickly fill up with huge "mass-shooting and other related incidents" (or "Controversy") sections that will outweigh the remainder of the entire article. I'm not seeking to suppress this info in any way. These mass-shootings and other types of firearms-related incidents almost always have their own articles here already. Lengthy, detailed articles that always include extensive information about the firearm(s) used and links to the related pages of the firearm, it's type, brand and/or manufacturer. That is sufficient. (most of this I've already posted elsewhere, but I will add; there is nothing stopping anyone here from writing an article about "the use of "AR-15 style rifles" in mass-shootings", and linking it to every related article; mass-shootings and other related incidents, and articles about the firearms, related firearm types, brands and makers, etc. Just a thought. - WOLFchild 19:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1A, 2A (usually) These events are not related to the specific gun models. If an event impact sales, regulation of the specific gun model, or variant gun design (as in TEC9) - then that would ge a reason to cover it in the model. We do not usually document individual use cases in weapon articles - it would become an unmanageable list for some.Icewhiz (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as existing guidelines are sufficient, and this should be decided on the article talk page. We can't foresee every possibility, so to set a hard policy or guideline that dictates the content of an article is wrong minded. This is an issue of CONTENT, and guidelines shouldn't be getting this specific on what to include. That is what editors are for. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:59, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Existing guidelines (1B) are sufficient. What will be notable a year from now is hardly discernible today. See: WP:CrystalBall. Meanwhile, we should not conflate all firearms. Besides, a decade ago, every rifle used criminally was an AK47. Even if it wasn't. Now, every rifle used criminally is an AR-15, even if it isn't. The Firearms Project guidelines are sufficient. And, when something becomes notable, then more than a mention becomes important. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 21:27, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1-D This seems like an obvious case-by-case basis and any hard rules are just going to create poor articles. Let the editors decide through talk page consensus whether it needs to be mentioned and how much to mention. As an aside the current guideline (1-B) is the worst option. See alsos should not be used to shoehorn links into articles. AIRcorn (talk) 21:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Generally opposed to making sweeping editorial decisions on an untold (and many as yet unwritten surely) number of articles. This should probably be decided on a case-by-case basis. GMG 21:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Existing guidelines are sufficient. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:47, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Clarify: General policies and guidelines, i.e. those unrelated to this specific topic area, are sufficient. - TransporterMan (TALK) 02:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment Currently, these decisions are not being made on a case-by-case basis. When attempts are made to add mass shooting information to an article, the WikiProject Firearms guideline essay is often cited as a "policy" that prohibits anything beyond a "See also" link. –dlthewave ☎ 23:11, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• The guideline needs to be looked at by the community then, remember that this isn't confined to just the United States in terms of English speaking scope. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose as I also feel the existing guidelines are sufficient. Springee (talk) 01:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1A, 2A per COATRACK. Please leave your politics on your end of the keyboard. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• Exactly, and how do you reconcile disallowing a particular aspect of a subject irrespective of how much coverage that aspect receives with Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines. IAR "because politics"? — Rhododendrites \\ 06:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1C and 2C according to notability. Articles on firearms such as Carcano Rifle, AR-15, Röhm RG-14, etc. that have been used in significant crimes should WP:DUE-ly contain coverage of those crimes. (How is including a couple sentences about the crime - in an article about a type of weapon that was used in a famous crime - being "political"?????) - LuckyLouie (talk) 04:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1A, 2A. I agree with Chris Troutman. These articles should remain Apolitical.--Limpscash (talk) 05:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• The beauty of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines is that they are apolitical (actually, it's fraught to say that, so let's say they try to be apolitical). We cover a subject according to how reliable sources cover a subject, without imposing our own opinions (political or not) about what aspects of the subject must be covered or must not be covered. — Rhododendrites \\ 06:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose (1A/2A) - I am, personally, an extremely strong gun-control advocate, but I don't see where it serves any encyclopedic purpose to list in every firearm article what mass shootings it was used in. However, a specific article about "Mass shootings using X firearm" would be a different matter, and I would support the encyclopedic value of such articles, which would then reasonably be listed in the firearm article's "See also" section. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1C/2C' - After further consideration, changing my vote. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• 1A under the assumption the individual manufacturer's execution of the generic design did not impart any particular advantage or disadvantage in the event(s) described. & 2C If the rifle truly fits within the definition (given the potential problems of using a prototype designation to describe a forked spectrum of improvements which may not be evident to many writers focusing on casualties rather than causes.) The truly important part of the description would be why executioners have chosen this rifle as opposed to a different method of killing (vehicle ramming attack, fire, poison, pressure-cooker bombs, blades, arrows, clubs, etc.) or a different type of firearm (shotgun, handgun, machinegun, semi-automatic rifle, lever-action rifle, bolt-action rifle, pump-action rifle, mortar, etc.) The paragraph should focus on features (sales volume, distribution of ammunition, ease of concealment, weight, range, accuracy, cartridge energy, bullet design, magazine capacity, reloading method, etc.) making this firearm more effective than other firearms (or merely more available than more effective firearms) and the factors making the targets uniquely vulnerable to attack by firearms, as opposed to alternative killing methods, unless firearms are simply more widely portrayed in the popular press as the preferred method for mass killing. Since an appropriately meaningful description might be interpreted as a how-to article on mass murder, we might better keep the description in the event articles to avoid identifying inappropriate uses of inanimate objects. Thewellman (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1D - ????????????????? How is this not the !vote of every experienced editor in this thread? Coverage of aspects of a subject is based on the weight/prevalence of those aspects in the literature about the subject. Simply because a gun was used in a particular event doesn't mean it should be included. If a great deal of coverage of the subject/gun is about particular ways in which it has been used, that should be included. And everything in between. Both 1A and 1C (and to a lesser extent 1B) are blanket rules that have no connection with the rest of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. We don't ban a particular aspect of a subject when that aspect comprises a major amount of the subject's coverage, and we don't include specific instances of a subject just because they exist or because it's true. That it was used obviously doesn't need anything more than a mention, if that, but in some cases there's in-depth coverage of the particular weapon used, analysis of a weapon used in multiple attacks, etc. As such 2C is clear in that instance given the incredible amount of sourcing on that aspect of the subject, but that doesn't mean it should be included in all cases. — Rhododendrites \\ 06:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• To be clear, regarding "How is this not..", I see that some have objected to this RfC and/or expressed opinions along the lines of 1D -- I'm just surprised to see so many 1As in general, and 1Cs without heavy qualification (the sort that basically turns it into 1D). — Rhododendrites \\ 07:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Because 1D effectively says "this whole debate must be repeated in every mass shooting talk page". This is a poor use of editors' time. Maproom (talk) 07:33, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

This is a debate about a general rule, not a specific instance. Each case needs to take the sourcing into account, and saying exclude vs. link vs. paragraph ahead of time is problematic. That said, to be clear, implied in my 1D is that sometimes it will call for 1C and sometimes it will call for 1A. I'm reading some of the 1C arguments, however, as perhaps operating under the assumption that if 1C is not selected, each individual case will be swarmed by people who don't acknowledge 1C is even a possibility. I don't have enough experience to know if that's true, but based on the fact that anyone at all has voted for 1A for a general rule lends some credibility to that idea. Still, I'm not going to build an assumption of bad faith into my !vote. — Rhododendrites \\ 23:49, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose any prescriptive outcome of this RFC. Complete WP:UNDUE consolidation of ill-defined information used in an attempt to draw a conclusion via WP:SYNTHESIS or make some kind of political point. Who decides which incidents get listed? Why stop at the model of rifle... why not go to gun and make a section of all shooting deaths? Do you see the inherent absurdity that this proposal can be extrapolated to? I get that people are in the midst of a bit of hysteria on this topic, but wikipedia is not here to "right great wrongs". We're here to be informative, not influential. -- Netoholic @ 08:17, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D I do not see why there must be a general guideline, nor why a project-based essay must be treated as such. Mass killings should be covered in a specific article if they are given significant mention in literature about that topic. That's all. Obviously, for a good many gun types, that means a paragraph; for a good many others, it means nothing at all. Vanamonde (talk) 08:47, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with Vanamonde. There should not be a specific rule at all, it is already covered under existing policy and guidelines such as WP:DUE and WP:RS. This is WP:CREEP, and could create a temptation to WP:BITE. Naturally, people will be curious about a firearm that is used in a mass shooting, and it seems reasonable that they will expect to see some mention in the article. If they don't see it, they might add it. If such an addition is not WP:UNDUE and is well-sourced, there's no reason to remove it. On the other hand, there's no need to impose a formula so that every firearm article has an identical prescribed section on its use in crime. How can we ignore all rules when there are so many of them? Jack N. Stock (talk) 09:07, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support 1 C - When RS coverage of the weapons used exists, it belongs in the article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as I really do not see why this is relevant. It may well be verifiable, but seems to me we are making a special case with guns (after all do we do this with makes of knives or swords?). In fact I do not think (as I imply) that I do not see why this is ever relevant to a make of gun.Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D, 2C this should be determined on a case-by-case basis, depending on the coverage and sourcing for particular weapons and particular incidents. In general, I think if many of the sources about the weapon draw attention to its use in an event then this should push towards including a brief description of the event in the article. On the other hand, if the only sources making the link are descriptions of the event that merely mention the type of gun used, then the event shouldn't be brought up in the gun model's article. In the case of AR-15 style rifles, I think the number of sources specifically about them and their use in mass shootings has probably reached the point where this connection should be mentioned in the article itself. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 16:48, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C, 2C The fact that civilian access to AR-15 pattern rifles is politically controversial is just that, a fact. That controversy doesn't wash away when you spin off daughter articles dedicated to specific brands. The Colt AR-15, is clearly an AR-15, it's a progenitor of the design. Yet some are arguing that policy issues around AR-15s generally shouldn't be mentioned in the Colt AR-15 article if the sources never specify a brand. This is not NPOV. Geogene (talk) 17:08, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1A, 2C (with limited discretion on individual articles) We shouldn't mention that John Wesley Hardin or Billy the Kid used a .44 Colt, we shouldn't mention the Dirty Harry quote on .44 Magnum, and we shouldn't mention mass shooters on page about that specific brand of firearm. For lack of a better term, it's "negative promotion", and we should avoid it the same way we would avoid including normal promotion. I do feel it's absolutely necessary to talk about the general trend on AR-15 style rifle. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• Unless the incident had relevance to the gun (i.e. legislation, design changes, etc.), it is generally well-intentioned WP:Coatracky to gather individual criminal events in the gun article. According to Gun_violence_in_the_United_States, Approximately 1.4 million people have been killed using firearms in the U.S. between 1968 and 2011. Even if you try to limit it to events with 'major news coverage', it's just a permanently growing craplist. Just because the gun is important to the criminal-event topic doesn't mean the criminal-event is important to the gun topic. Alsee (talk) 22:46, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D, 2C. AR-15 style rifle in fact redirects to modern sporting rifle. If the category is broad like that, then discussion of the use of modern sporting rifles in mass shootings is appropriate, as Assault weapon (but not Assault rifle, for good reason) contains political and legal information about the previous ban. The use of AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings is a subject gaining substantial RS coverage and it should be mentioned. For 1, however, I think the decision should be made on a case-by-case basis. For example, Charleston shooting mentions the Glock 41 but the Glock article does not. Carcano mentions the Kennedy assassination and probably always will. Roches (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
• Do like everything else and require coverage in reliable secondary sources. Do the secondary sources deem a specific shooting an important incident in the history of the firearm? Remember that news reports are primary sources, and most journalists are not reliable sources for this subject: reliable secondary sources in this field are scholars publishing well after the fact and relying on primary sources like news reports. This will weed out the political/coatracky type stuff without excluding the occasional momentous incident. Nyttend (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
• Please clarify "C. Include a paragraph-style section", do you mean a simple reference to each such crime in paragraph form such as is currently the the case in Modern sporting rifle or do you intend that a paragraph be added per crime, or somewhere in the middle? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 06:53, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Dlthewave, as the nominator please can you clarify the above? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 11:17, 26 February 2018 (UTC).

The format used at AR-15 style rifle and SIG MCX is what I had in mind for most firearms: List the most notable shootings and briefly discuss legislative changes or other significant effects, with links to more in-depth coverage. However, AR-15 style rifle could include a longer Cultural Impact section similar to AK-47. –dlthewave ☎ 13:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

1C & 2D. A discussion about a specific page's content belongs on that page's talk page. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 14:26, 26 February 2018 (UTC).

• Our existing polices are not broken and do not need fixing. The particular policy that applies here is WP:UNDUE, and this particular situation is described in WP:COATRACK. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:47, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

• WRONGLY POSED QUESTION: There cannot be a general solution to this question, since the sources about the weapon in each case will have to determine whether the coverage of use in specific events is notable enough to include. It is completely wrong to seek to get a general across the board solution for this. Policy very clearly tells us that the SOURCES are what guides us in determining what is sufficiently relevant to include in the article. We do not need a general decision on this.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

• 1D but the option feel for 2 is not there. In general, just because X was part of a crime does not necessarily make X notable, nor does it need to be the case to call out the crime on the article about X if it is already notable. X here can be anything - a firearm, a vehicle, software, whatever. However, if it is the case that X is specifically talked about after the crime where people are calling for legislation, regulation, or if the manufacturer takes steps specifically in response, etc. then the event can be named. A good example, Discord (software) was called out for harboring alt/far-right servers which were use to organize the "Unite the Right" rallys that became violent. In direct response, the developers affirmed new TOS and kicked out those servers. Same logic applied to guns. As for the second question, this is where we need sources that discuss broadly the number of crimes that the specific weapon has been linked to and if that has become a point of contention for the weapon. Just because the gun has been named as the weapon in numerous crimes, it is SYNTH to argue for a paragraph about that unless we have reliable secondary sources making that criticism about the gun. This is a case-by-case decision, and not listed among the options. --Masem (t) 16:57, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C / 2C , based on existing guidelines. I would also recommend specifically rejecting the current WP:GUNS section on the topic which has been used in the past to specifically exclude such material from articles based on project-specific consensus, including in very notable cases. For example, the use of Colt AR-15 semi-automatic rifle in the Port Arthur massacre led to the enactment of the National Firearms Programme Implementation Act 1996. Under the present WP:GUNS content guide, this would only warrant a "See also" link. Other samples:

• added a "See also" link per Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms (while removing material), in SIG MCX.
• per Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms and talk page discussions, as well as discussions on Colt AR-15 talk page. Where consensus agreed that this type info was best suited as a "See Also" link, in Bushmaster XM-15.
• We have a 9 to 1 consensus on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms to list crimes as bullet points in the "See also" section. Also in Bushmaster. Etc.

In contrast, here are two prior RfC which concluded with "Include":

• Talk:Ruger_Mini-14#Rfc:_Add_major_incidents_to_article?, in Ruger_Mini-14
• Talk:SIG_MCX/Archive_1#RFC:_Is_the_Orlando_shooting_relevant?, in SIG MCX. Note that this 2016 RfC is on the same article is in one of the diffs above, removing (in 2017) the content per "per Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms".

I see such a project-specific consensus to be not conducive to building a neutral encyclopedia. K.e.coffman (talk) 08:11, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• In as much as this question has an answer, it's clearly 1D/2C, but it's rather disappointing that this is being presented as if it's some kind of overall question about inclusion of trivia, when actually it's all about trying to play down the role of assault weapons modern sporting rifles in mass shootings. That might be what the NRA want, but we are a neutral encyclopaedia and right now the main reason people are interested in that article is that it is the weapon of choice of American mass shootings. Which is to say: mass shootings, since almost all of them happen in America. If anyone is looking up the article on the AR15 right now it is almost certainly to answer the question: why is this weapon front and centre in the current debate over gun control in America. It's kind of hard to answer that question without discussing it, which is of course precisely why the NRA came up with its always-too-soon narrative on discussing gun control. We should have a policy page: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not Newspeak. Guy (Help!) 09:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • We must take care to avoid the narrative of the gun control lobby as well as the narrative of the NRA. For example, we know that some terrorists/mass murderers use guns, we know that some terrorists/mass murderers use bombs, and we know that some terrorists/mass murderers use trucks. Yet our article on Mercedes Benz doesn't mention the many times that brand of truck was used in an attack, and our article on Vehicle-ramming attack and our articles on individual vehicle-ramming attacks don't appear to mention what kind of truck was used. Nor do we ephasise what kind of explosive was used in the making of the bombs. Yes, some guns are better or worse choices for shooting up a school, but it is also true that some trucks are better or worse choices for plowing into a crowd. The ASR15 is front and center in the current debate over gun control in America because the gun control advocates want to make that particular weapon illegal even though other weapons are just as capable of being used in a school shooting (for example, a sawed off semi-automatic shotgun would be far more effective at such close ranges). If we are to be a neutral encyclopaedia, we should not let the pro-gun or anti-gun lobbies decide what the narrative is. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I agree with all of this but would throw in a consideration of WP:RECENTISM. If just now the debate is above banning the ASR15 due only to the recent school shooting, it might be too soon to consider including it because of the nearness of the event. If in a month that debate is still going, then that issue has legs and inclusion is reasonable per Guy's logic related to UNDUE/WEIGHT and staying neutral. But if this debate evaporates in a few weeks, it might not be appropriate to include. On the other hand, if the ASR15 has a history of people wanting to ban it after shooting events like this, then its reasonable to discuss that as a whole. (I just had to do similar with video games after Trump's statement this week; games have been attributed in several past shootings including Sandy Hook - though here, no specific games, just the form in general). --Masem (t) 14:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C or 1D (which probably amount to the same thing, because use in a mass shooting is likely to have attracted a lot of RS about the gun) and 2C. These articles are subject to the content policies like any other. Therefore, if a gun is used in a mass shooting and there is coverage in RS about the gun as a result of that, it belongs in the article, preferably in its own sub-section. If there's a lot of coverage it belongs in the lead too, per WP:LEAD: "It should ... summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms#Criminal use should be rewritten to reflect policy. SarahSV 19:08, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/1D I would surmise by extrapolation reading Derringer perma-link, and the prominent picture concerning its most famous killing. As for question 2, go to the article talk page where all the sources can be discussed and have consensus decide based on those. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C, 2C - we include exhaustive lists of notable incidents for aircraft, I don't see why notable incidents involving specific firearms should be treated any differently. Ivanvector (/_Edits) 12:16, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• Case by case. The key point is how much was the specific model discussed by reliable sources in reference to the shooting. If reliable sources merely mention that shooter happened to use this model, but didn't go into detail, and imply it might as well have been any other of a dozen models, we probably do not want to mention it at all; they might as well mention the kind of car the shooter drove up in. If reliable sources say the impact that the shooting had on the company or sales of the model, we might want to have a sentence. If reliable sources state or imply that the specific item was an important factor in the event (like the bump stocks in the Las Vegas shooting), then we want a paragraph or more. --GRuban (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1C, 2C - Mass shootings are highly notable, and the weapons used are highly noteworthy. There may be rare exceptions to 1C, for example where a firearm is so generic and common (e.g. Glock n) or several firearms are involved, but some did not have a significant role in the shooting. Notably, some of these firearms articles read like product brochures and are overly-dependent on primary sources from the manufacturer. Adding information about how products are used (or misused) would tend to make the articles more well-rounded and compliant with WP:NPOV.- MrX 🖋 22:38, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D, 2D Both depend and should be on a case by case basis. Emir of Misplaced Pages (talk) 22:51, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D but that will often lead to 1C: If the weapon is an unremarkable part of mass shootings, and is indeed not remarked upon then lesser levels of coverage are warranted, but if RS either highlight the fact that the weapon is either a common part of said crimes, or an enabling factor in their commission, then we should have in-text coverage of that fact. With regard to the AR-15, 2C is probably the lower limit of coverage, given the abundant RS coverage of both the weapon's role in shootings, emerging coverage of effects of its shooting velocity on mortality, and the need to also cover legislative initiatives to control it specifically. In any case, the notion that societally important products should be discussed on Misplaced Pages primarily in the way they are sold, marketed, and collected, and not based on their larger social impact belies the purpose of a general encyclopedia.--Carwil (talk) 16:44, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D, 2C Each should be evaluated on its own merits, but it's clearly justified in the AR-15 style rifle case.--Pharos (talk) 23:36, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
• 1D, 2C There is no policy or guideline that constitutes a blanket ban or restriction on including this information. Even the oft-cited essay at Wikiproject Firearms includes a caveat: "In general, WikiProject Firearms goals are to work on improving the quality of project-tagged articles without imposing WikiProject Firearms guidelines as mandates." Inclusion and level of coverage should be considered on a true case-by-case basis, regardless of any local consensus that has formed at another article. Edit 3/3/2018: Additionally, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms#Criminal use should be changed to reflect the outcome of this RfC.

"AR-15 style rifle" would benefit from a Cultural Influence section similar to AK-47, as well as a mass Shootings section. This is a relatively undeveloped article with plenty of room to discuss its characteristics and the reasons for its popularity along with its use in mass shootings. If this is referred to as "America's rifle" and one of the "most beloved and most vilified rifles", not to mention its role as a "sporting" weapon, then surely there's a story to be told here. That said, our coverage of mass shootings should reflect the significant weight given by reliable sources. The prevalence of AR-15 style rifles in mass shootings has received significant coverage, and this is the appropriate place to include it. –dlthewave ☎ 01:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

• 1D, 2C Generally, a case-by-case decision is preferred. In the specific case of the AR-15, I think there is definite cause to include it, with RS such as this NYT article clearly emphasizing that this gun in particular is a preferred weapon of mass shooters in the US. Regards SoWhy 11:24, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
• Generally not - 1A, 2A, the existing guidance (and firearms essay shown above)seems generally sufficient. The article on any mass killing should list the weapons in the infobox as a key part of the event detail and how it happened. But it would be WP:OFFTOPIC at the weapon article as that is not information about the weapon and is not actually specific to the weapon where the killings could just as easily have taken place with some other make/model. Las Vegas used AR-15; Orlando used Sig-Sauer and Glock 17; Aurora used S&W, Remington shotgun, and Glock 22; Columbine used TEC-DC9, High-point carbine, and a couple of shotguns. The assault-gun ban was for features of weapons and not specific models. I could perhaps see the firearms essay being tweaked to add that if there is some unique feature about the weapon such that only it could have been used, or if the weapon is specifically singled out in a law just for that weapon then it should be mentioned. But to put in a mention at the weapons seems more advocacy than encyclopedic. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1A, 2A. The specific weapon used in a shooting is unimportant trivia. Go ahead and add it to the article on the shooting, but unless there is something very special about the weapon used (e.g. the shooter used a 3D printed gun because no other was available) there is no reason to keep a list of when the weapon was used. It could just as easily been substituted for any other gun. Natureium (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1D/2D - Anything other than a !vote for case by case decision is probably motivated by POV. (Invited randomly by a bot) Jojalozzo (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/2C. Various specific models or types of weapons have been characteristically used in specific types of crimes--not exclusively, but either as a usual element , or as what is in popular opinion --or popular imagination-- a usual element, just as in military service specific models or types are typically used for various purposes. The use of the model name cannot be understood by the reader without knowing such connotations. Guns are normally intended for use, and the use is part of any article about them. DGG ( talk ) 05:16, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/2C. This seems the most sensible solution to me. Guns are used in crimes may be "common knowledge" but actors act in movies is common knowledge too and we'd never have an objection to listing an actor's filmography, no matter how small the role. Step away from the whole gun argument. If some person, place, or thing, kept appearing on the national news for various incidents, would there be a strong argument for ignoring those incidents? The Boeing 757 article mentions it was one of the models used in the 9/11 attacks. It's not an indictment of the plane, it's not political. I think by the same token notable crimes where this gun is used should be included, in a neutral, but intellectually honest manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ForeverZero (talk • contribs) 09:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/2C. Special interest projects should not be able to dictate the tone of coverage for the entire encyclopedia. An encyclopedia article about anything, a toy, a gun, an appliance, a movie, should include the cultural and historical context or else it is just a Wikia fan page. Gamaliel (talk) 17:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1.C / 2.C, or as a second choice any other option but A, provided of course that reliable sources of sufficient depth exist for such content. The use of certain types of firearms in mass shootings (or other high-profile crimes) is an important element in what I understand to be the current discussion about gun regulation in the US, as covered by many reliable sources, and as such is part and parcel of a complete article about the topic. I see certain parallels to our policy WP:WAF concerning fiction: we want to cover our topics from the perspective of the real world, and not only from a "fan interest" / "in-universe" perspective. Sandstein 13:12, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1A / 2C. Rationale:
  1A per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOT#ADVOCACY, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, etc. The principal, obvious reason some people want to include this stuff on a per-model basis is anti-gun advocacy and to lead the reader to an opinion against the firearm in question. Shall we also include statistics on how frequently the model is used for hunting of particular game? How frequently it is used by private citizens to thwart crimes? How many police departments use it on a per jurisdiction basis? How frequently it is implicated in accidental injuries? How often it is used by suicides? (etc., etc.) If you answer is "no", then thank you for confirming that the mass-shootings thing is just PoV pushing. 1D could also work, but the answer is going to almost always come down to 1A anyway. Exceptions would be rare, e.g. the Uzi was the subject of intense public debate in and of itself, but this is quite rare.
  2C because we "teach the controversy": as a general (though poorly understood) class of firearm, there is noteworthy public policy debate, in multiple countries, about restrictions on AR-15s or even banning them entirely (though much of it is pointless and unrealistic – manufacturers would simply develop a similar modular platform; the appeal of the AR-15 is its modularity, its adaptability, which has nothing to do with "assaultness", an emotive nonsense concept made up by the anti-gun crowd to scare people).
  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:53, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1D 2C - It would be ridiculous to remove this information when there is so much press coverage and proposed legislation specifically mentioning certain gun types. However, including that a certain weapon was used by Charles Manson in the weapon's article seems like trivia to me, to just pull an example out of my butt. Nessie (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C / 2C - A neutral, extremely well-sourced, SENTENCE has been forged and rejected with a spurious edit summary, and the deletion has been identified by an admin as tendentious editing. DS warnings have been issued. That edit should be restored.

Our existing policies are sufficient to deal with this matter, if the stonewalling on the article is broken by topic banning several tendentious editors. Otherwise it's a battle zone and time sink.

The lack of mention has already caught the attention of the media, to the embarrassment of Misplaced Pages:

• How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages’s AR-15 page. After Parkland, gun control information was strangely hard to find. The Verge
• Pro-gun Group Edited AR-15 Misplaced Pages Page to Hide Mass Shootings, Newsweek

False requirement: "These paragraphs should only be added if the school shooting in question has had an impact on the gun, or new regulations have been put forward" is not a policy-based requirement, but one created by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Firearms, and as such has no legitimacy as it violates several policies. Tendentious editors have created that ad hoc rule. They have no right to use it in article space, and even thinking that way is wrong. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

The Verge article and the NW article which simply says "The Verge said..." are simply poor articles. The Verge writer gets basic facts wrong and mischaracterizes many events and takes quotes out of context. The article's speak to the poor reporting standards of the author more than anything else. Springee (talk) 11:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

• 1C / 2C - The discussion of the use of particular firearms in mass shootings is absolutely appropriate, as it speaks to their technical capabilities. For example, in the Las Vegas shooting, we learned a great deal about the characteristics of rifles when used in conjunction with bump stocks. Further, remember that future mass murderers rely upon Misplaced Pages too. If you remove information about mass shootings from firearms articles, how will they be able to make an informed choice of weaponry? Cinteotl (talk) 06:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1A/B and 2C - Pretty much WP:MNA. A lot of this content comes from recent events, and political opinions around gun control. So we don't have the gun control argument on every single gun talk page we should keep the bulk of the content on these incidents on articles dedicated to them, and at most post a link that directs us to the incident. The generalized article should only contain generalized information on the subject. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as existing guidelines are sufficient. –Davey2010 00:13, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C/2C On the page for the Boeing 767, we mention that it was used for the September 11th attacks. On the page for sonar, we mention the link between active sonar and deaths in marine mammals. When an topic has become associated by the media with a certain kind of event, even if that event itself has an undeniable negative impact on the reputation of the object or topic, it belongs in the article. We cover what is shown by reliable sources; not what we wish was true. Icarosaurvus (talk) 22:09, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
• 1C, 2C These are highly notable events, including the model of weapon used. No reason to exclude besides pushing a POV.Casprings (talk) 04:04, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

poll update

Threaded Discussion: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles

Just a quick question on item 1. Is it asking if information should be included on say the Colt AR-15 article even if it was not a Colt AR-15 used but another AR type rifle? PackMecEng (talk) 17:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

No, I would consider that to be a separate discussion –dlthewave ☎ 17:57, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

On second thought, I would consider that to be part of item 2.

• It would be undue to include the complete list of murders and massacres committed with AR-15 type rifles. But it would be disingenuous to not have a single mention of the ubiquity of the AR-15 type rifle in the Colt AR-15 article. And the whole Kleenex/paper tissue argument is just a red herring: you can't have an AR-15 type rifle without the original AR-15; not mentioning it (prominently, in the lead, since it is that well-sourced and that important) does no service to the reader and is intellectually dishonest. We do not need to defend Colt, and including a neutrally written paragraph is no attack on Colt, who I am sure are well aware of this matter. It is our job to inform the reader about where these guns come from and what their relation is to the "original". Drmies (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• I just want to state for the record that I oppose the idea of putting a list of school shootings in the "See also" section for gun articles. The event in question either had an impact on the gun or it didn't. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Didn't we have this discussion at some time in the past? What was the results of that discussion? I'm sure there's an old RFC out there that was about this exact issue. If someone remembers it as well, and knows where to find it, reading it may give some insight into the existing community consensus on this. --Jayron32 18:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

That is a significant part of the problem here. Every now and then, a small groups of editors have discussions on various talk pages which often result in a "local consensus", that they then try to rely on when making edits to other pages. Edits that often come in conflict with the "local consensus" established by yet another small group from a different talk page. We need a one-time, centralized discussion with a solid community-wide consensus that can also be written into the guideline (or policy), so that going forward, we can actually rely on that guideline or policy, and not another local consensus cooked up by a yet another small group of editors. At least 3 such discussions started on 3 different pages. They were closed and directed to the talk page of the project that the articles fell under the scope of. There was a discussion going there, but suddenly, it seems we're having it here now. - WOLFchild 19:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@Jayron32: Here's a relevant RfC that was held on a Talk page of a firearm article: Talk:Ruger_Mini-14#Rfc:_Add_major_incidents_to_article?. The result was "Include". K.e.coffman (talk) 23:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I recall that one, it was close. Here is another recent RfC. The result was exclude. The results were also close. ]. Here is a related RfC about adding use in crimes to automotive pages. Interesting that since it was about automobiles instead of guns, the results were strongly against inclusion.] In that RfC, claims of censorship were made as were WP:NOTE. Both are effectively addressed by the idea that not everything has to go in every article. No material is being excluded as it appears in the articles about the topic. Springee (talk) 01:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

These two RfCs mentioned directly above (by K.e.coffman & Springee) completely validate my previous comments about conflicting local consensuses. Any group of 5 or 6 pro-gun guys can put together a pro-gun consensus on a particular issue on one page, while at the exact same time, 5 or 6 anti-gun guys can put together an anti-gun consensus on another page, about the same issue. This is one of the reasons we have projects, and the appalling lack of faith and baseless accusations of bias have basically negated the very project that covers this topic and now we're having debates all over the place. What's next? - WOLFchild 01:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• If it wasn't a Colt AR-15 then no, it shouldn't be mentioned. We have a parent article about AR-15s (which seems to be changing names quite often) then we have this article about one particular model. If the crime didn't involve this model why would we even consider linking the two. It's like linking James Dean to the Mustang he didn't drive to his death. Springee (talk) 19:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• To me, trying to pin people down would go against our WP:Editing policy by imposing a global rule where it should depend on the circumstances and the consensus of editors. Thus I would stick with my original opposition. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• @Masem: the reason question 2 doesn't have a "maybe" option is that it deals with only one article (which currently, but not for much longer, resides at modern sporting rifle). ansh666 02:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• If the information to be included in the generic firearm article doesn't describe the why as explained above, I would change my response to 2B since mere identification seems comparatively trivial. I am concerned about the preponderance of reliable sources treating mass murder as a macabre competition by describing events as a US record or annual record. Professional and amateur contenders are differentiated by exclusion of events like the My Lai Massacre and the Waco siege. Perhaps the next step will differentiate individual achievement from team participation events like the Columbine High School massacre or the 2015 San Bernardino attack. This competitive focus may encourage individuals with self-esteem issues to seek recognition by achieving a higher body count using similar methods. Thewellman (talk) 20:11, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Why? Why do we discuss jello shots in Jell-o, it's something people do with it that RS talk about. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand the basis for comparison. I suppose we discuss jello shots in the Jell-o article because there does not appear to be a separate article for jello shots, while this discussion involves potential duplication in the event article and the firearm article. Thewellman (talk) 00:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

No. We also discuss jello shots in Gelatin dessert -- we discuss many (most?) things in more than one article because that's how encyclopedic topics work. And really, you don't understand, it's something people do with it that RS talk about. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Some may not understand the value of links to avoid a duplicated description at every mention of an unfamiliar term, and separated sources without Misplaced Pages's spectrum of information may require independent discussion because of a lack of linking options. I acknowledge the benefit of a separate description if sources describe firearm characteristics significant in the context of that event, but I consider a simple tabular link adequate if sources merely identify the firearm. Thewellman (talk) 22:39, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

• FWIW I have closed an RfD on a number of AR-15-related redirects. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:24, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

@Amorymeltzer: I think you meant to post this in the AR-15 discussion below. –dlthewave ☎ 21:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. Moved. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 21:38, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

• Sooo... what's the latest news here? Do we have a consensus on this matter yet? There doesn't seem to be much activity here and we are past the 30-day mark, when most RfCs are reviewed for a possible consensus... and then closed. - WOLFchild 02:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I put in a request at Requests for closure a few days ago. There's a backlog, so we're just waiting for someone to close it. –dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, I guess we'd better hope for some uninvolved admin to come along to do the close, and try to determine if there is a consensus at the same time. Though they might have to individually ask each editor who !voted "oppose" just what they meant, and how it applies to the criteria you set out (especially those editors who contributed before you added additional criteria a week later). There seems to be a difference of perception as to just what they were 'opposing'... - WOLFchild 16:43, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Coverage of mass shootings: RfC wording & prior RfC

• Comment -- I have concerns about the structure of this RfC and the language used, which can lead to misunderstandings. For example, ] is presented as a guideline. This is, in fact, a project-specific essay and does not supersede actual policies and guidelines, such as WP:NPOV or WP:NOT. This language has been included in the RfC and several !votes (emphasis mine):

1. B. Include links to notable shootings in the "See Also" section (Current WikiProject Firearms guideline) (language in the RfC)
2. Oppose - any changes to the current policy (noted as "1B")
3. Oppose. Existing guidelines (1B) are sufficient.

Some of the resulting votes are therefore subject to varying interpretations. For example:

• Oppose: as existing guidelines are sufficient, and this should be decided on the article talk page.

this could be read as "Oppose, use WP:NPOV instead" or "Oppose, use WikiProject Firearms guideline" (I think it's the former, but if you look at vote #3 above, it's also an oppose based on a "guideline". ping @Dennis Brown: for clarification.

The selection of prior discussions also appears to be limited. I therefore suggest that:

a. the language in the RfC be changed to ] & "B. Include links to notable shootings in the "See Also" section (per Current WikiProject Firearms essay)"

b. this past page-specific RfC be added to the section on "Relevant talk page discussions": Talk:Ruger_Mini-14#Rfc:_Add_major_incidents_to_article? permalink. I believe that the RfC is relevant since it addressed the same question.

Ping @Dlthewave: as the author of the RfC to see if these two changes can be made. I don't think we should be conflating project-specific recommendations with community policies and guidelines. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:25, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the requested changes. –dlthewave ☎ 23:53, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So, after numerous editors have posted !votes with attached comments in the RfC straw-poll, the wording of the RfC is now going to be changed? wow... - WOLFchild 01:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• • I've already clarified above. This kind of hamstringing goes against WP:Editing policy, which is a policy. Let editors decide on a case by case basis. Twice I've been asked to explain, but my objection is much simpler than it is being made out to be. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Possible Misplaced Pages:Canvassing

K.e.coffman added this notice to the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard.

RfC notice: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles

An RfC relevant to this project has been opened at:

• Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles

Interested editors are invited to participate. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, but... how does this relate to fringe theories, which are the focus of this noticeboard? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I too wonder..."how does this relate to fringe theories, which are the focus of this noticeboard?"--RAF910 (talk) 02:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Shock Brigade Harvester Boris: I've been advised by a WikiProject Firearms member in this discussion that nothing stopping you from posting notifications on the "WP:NPOVN or WP:VP" talk pages, or anywhere else for that matter, to involve as much of the community as possible. I assume various noticeboards qualify as "as much community as possible". However, I'd be happy to remove the notice if there's a concern. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

No concern at all. My first thought was that there might be some kind of fringe/conspiracy angle to the RfC that I had missed. So I was a bit puzzled but now see that you simply were casting the net as wide as possible. In any event accusations of canvassing are off the mark. I can't see how participating at WP:FTN implies a view one way or the other on issues like gun control, or favored firearm brands, or anything else related to the RFC. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I was the one that made that comment. That was of course, in support of having the discussion on the project talk page where it belongs in the first place, and where it had been moved to once already, (3 times actually), and where it had already begun, and where several editors had already contributed. I made that comment in response to your claims that editors from the Firearms Project were "biased" and that it wouldn't be possible to have a fair discussion there. But the discussion has since been moved (yet again) to this page, (though I'm not entirely sure why, possibly to quiet your concerns and accusations I suppose). So now that that the discussion (and RfC) is on "neutral ground", your multiple notifications are needless and indeed bordering on canvassing. You've also posted notices at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Death. Where else are you going to post notices? "WikiProject:Mothers Against Guns"? At what point could one be considered "getting carried away" with all this? - WOLFchild 03:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I have not participated at all in this little kerfluffle but it's hard to imagine those notifications as canvassing. Why would participants at either of those two projects be biased one way or the other on the subject of this RFC? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

If you suspect canvassing, you should follow the process at WP:CANVASS. Bring it up on the user's talk page and take it to ANI if it continues. This is not the appropriate place to discuss.–dlthewave ☎ 04:31, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

User:K.e.coffmans notice to the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography is appropriate, because we are talking about crime. His notice to the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject United States seems reasonable, because this is a major issue in the U.S. right now. His notice to the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Death is a stretch, but I can see it. His notice to the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, I wonder about that one myself. Also, there’s nothing wrong with shining light on this matter here and asking involved editors for their opinions. That's what we're suppose do here.--Limpscash (talk) 05:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• Posting to the Fringe and Paranormal noticeboards can be a form of canvassing. For example, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/John Traynor (Royal Marine) was posted at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Paranorma. Traynor was a Lourdes pilgrim, an ex-soldier from Liverpool crippled by a wound during WWI who announced that he had been miraculously cured at Lourdes in 1923, an era when pilgrimage to Lourdes was a mass phenomenon; a mainstream Catholic religious practice. The Traynor story turned out to be unusually well sourced; SIGCOV in both popular and academic books and in major newspapers ongoing for over a century. Yet when I began to clean up and source the page, I was assailed by accusations of "adding sources written by believers into the article that support fringe claims. This is a problem for WP:Fringe." Similar attacks on Young Earth creationism, a religious beliefs that is mainstream in some Muslim and Christian circles, but Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Is Genesis History?, about a film supporting Young Earth creationism, was posted at fringe. It is, of course, an "theory," with no support among scientists. The problem is that the debate was not an evaluation of notability. After it was posted at Fringe theories/Noticeboard, editors arrived who treated the AfD as a debate about ""A fringe subject... inside the creationist universe.", asserting that "The fact that it is a film promoting a fringe theory and not an article about the theory itself doesn't really change anything." which as closing editor said, shifted the discussion to the question of "do we apply the notability standards for fringe theories (which require sources independent from those associated with the theory), or for other subjects like films (which just require reliably sourced coverage independent from the subject itself, i.e., the film)?" As with the current AfD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Spark: A Mother's Story of Nurturing Genius, the point of posting an article about a film, a book or a Lourdes pilgrim to the fringe or paranormal' boards appears to be to draw the attention of true believers who take up the cudgels, against Young Earth creationism, against ways of conceptualizing autism, against Lourdes water, against the lack of effective gun control. In other words, for a certain range of issues, posting at fringe and/or paranormal is effectively a type of canvassing that brings out holy warriors to join the crusade against... whatever is intensely disliked. They rush to articles posted at these boards and iVote delete without - as is very clear at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Spark: A Mother's Story of Nurturing Genius - arguing that editors should IGNORE ALL RULES, in comments that too often show that they have not read the policies or the sources that they cite. E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

In this case, however, the post at FTN was NOT canvassing. It was a simple notification, phrased in neutral language. Blueboar (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• Posting on a noticeboard unconnected with the topic of the AfD can be a form of canvassing if the point of posting there is to attract a group of editors likely to share the posting editor's perspective. User:K.e.coffman has responded that there is no bar on posting to noticeboards, but has not explained his reasons for posting to this particular noticeboard, and, as I explain above, it such postings can skew discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

In order for requesting outside input to be canvassing, it has to be done with the intent to selectively recruit participants to sway the result one way. Maybe on some subjects simply alerting the fringe noticeboard could be canvassing, but I can't for the life of me guess what bias regulars on the fringe noticeboard would bring to this particular discussion. The topic is completely unrelated. That certainly makes the decision to request input there odd, but it was a completely neutral notification that the discussion exists. Unless you have an argument about how this particular instance constituted a deliberate attempt to fill the debate with anti-gun editors, calling it canvassing would really be assuming bad faith on K.e.coffman's part. Your argument amounts to: "It happened before, so it's also happening now. He hasn't explained himself, therefore he's clearly up to no good." Red Rock Canyon (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I have been volunteering at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard for several years. Can someone please tell me what my political position should be, and what things I should "intensely dislike", because I didn't get any instruction in that regard. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:35, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I think you are expected to be against fringe weapons, and in favor of mainstream ones. So no mention of mass murders in any article about Tesla’s “death ray” (or even “Tesla style death rays”). ;) Blueboar (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Page move request notice

User K.e.coffman has moved Modern sporting rifle to "AR-15 style rifle" without first seeking consensus. As a controversial and contested page move, made while related discussions were actively taking place (including here, hence this notice), the page has been moved back and a proper page move request has now been posted. Please see Talk:Modern sporting rifle#Requested move 22 February 2018 for more information, and if you wish to participate in the page move discussion. - WOLFchild 03:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: - You should take some time to cool down, this is the second thing I have seen you involved in here. Just hope the editing isn't getting to you is all. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:09, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree this is a controversial move, as were the edits to change the article scope without consensus. These should be reverted pending a full consensus discussion. These are not the same topic; a sporting rifle is a rifle used for sporting. AR-15 is a specific firearm platform, used for sporting, hunting, defense, military, police, and other rifle types. Also "AR-15 style rifle" is ungrammatical (missing hyphen from compound modifier "AR-15-style"), but such a modifier is potentially confusing, since it has two different kinds of hyphens in it, the first being part of a model name. It also doesn't make any sense, and strongly implies to the reader "rifles styled to look like AR-15s but which are not". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:08, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: This been discussed and resolved at Talk:AR-15 style rifle/Archive 1#Article Title. Consensus was to move to AR-15 style rifle. This is outside the scope of the RfC, so please bring any concerns to the article talk page. –dlthewave ☎ 16:13, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

If it's quite recently been argued over, I won't re-open it so soon. I suspect others will realize the rename was a bad idea and do a re-RM at some point anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:29, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Allow some categorization in disambiguation pages (or within redirects to them)

I would like policy and/or style guidelines to be changed or clarified to be allowed to categorize disambiguation pages (or redirects to them), in certain cases.

Perhaps the problem is that some of these disambiguation pages could/should be WP:Disambiguation#Broad-concept articles, and perhaps one solution is to indicate that via {{dabprimary}}.

First case

Brainless is a WP:disambiguation page, nevertheless I wanted to add the following categories:

1. Category:Nothing - no brain
2. Category:Pejorative terms for people - see wikt:brainless

Alternatively, I could a) create a redirect (with the categories) named Brainless (pejorative) and b) redirect it to a disambiguation page, then c) add the redirect (to self) as an entry in the disambiguation page.

My attempt was reverted here, because "this is a dab page". It was not helpful - hence this policy request.

There are several preliminary questions. As a WikiGnome, I try to populate both preexisting categories with words already used in titles of Misplaced Pages articles. How important is it that such words are placed in those categories, especially as Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary?

The ideal solution is to write up an actual Brainless (pejorative) article, rather than a redirect, but I'm a poor article editor (for now) which is why I prefer to remain a gnome - perhaps simply indicating it as a broad scope article would do. I thought my solution (categorizing in a disambiguation page as it didn't belong in any actual article) was a good example of WP:Ignore all rules for improving Misplaced Pages, but it doesn't help against "prickly" editors - hence this request. See also WP:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages#When to break Misplaced Pages rules.

Note that if the disambiguation page had a "(disambiguation)" in its title (because the main article was about another primary use, I would either need the redirect form, or the original article should have a section stating that the naked word happens to be a pejorative. This is certainly the case for many songs with one word titles, e.g., Mindless used to redirect to Mindless (film) but I turned it into a dab - that is not always possible. PS. I'm drafting a broad-scope article to replace the mindless dab.

Second case

Disambiguation pages are not articles, but they do complement categories and list articles - they are a recognized source of (non-article) navigation, e.g., WP:Disambiguations are cheap. Sometimes, it is useful to treat them as lists of names. For example, in an article (&category) about various ways of grouping/labeling things, I have

Each header of the table is a category, while all the entries are dabs. However, I wish to categorize these dabs under the header category, e.g., under Category:Category (grouping)

Now these dabs would not be of wide scope, but can I categorize them? I haven't read anything specifically prohibiting this, but more experienced editors have used this as an excuse to revert.

Disclosure

My categorizations and redirects are currently being questioned and/or reverted, so please invite User:DexDor and User:Marcocapelle to comment on this proposal. I believe the question of whether a new category that I had created should remain, is independent of whether some dabs can be categorized (often into prexisting categories that I had no involvement in). Dpleibovitz (talk) 20:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

• I'm entirely confused by what you're asking. Natureium (talk) 20:46, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

  Can I categorize DABs? Some editors don't allow this. Policy is not clear. Dpleibovitz (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

  WP:DBC is pretty clear to me: Disambiguation pages are not articles and should not be categorized as such. Maybe you are referring to some other policy? --Izno (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

We categorize articles by the topic of the article - i.e. a category is a list (or set, if you prefer) of articles about a particular topic (plus there are maintenance categories - either hidden or on talk pages etc). Dab pages, by definition, are not about a particular topic so shouldn't be in article categories.

The OP of this thread has been doing some categorization edits that are strange (to say the least) - some non-dab examples where he appears to be categorizing a page based on a completely different meaning of the title are and . Quite frankly he should stop being a nuisance and take some time to learn how things work in Misplaced Pages. DexDor 21:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with DexDor that a disambiguation page is "about" an ambiguous term rather than a topic. Sometimes all the entries happen to have a common theme, but often they do not. For example, it's tempting to add Symphony No. 1 to Category:Lists of symphonies. However, the term has other uses. That dab page quite properly contains a ballet, an orchestra, a play and two albums and is hence not a list of symphonies. It's even more tempting to add Symphony No. 2, which today happens to be a list of symphonies. However, that's not its purpose, and the categorisation will quietly become incorrect if Symphony No. 2 (book) ever becomes a best seller. Certes (talk) 21:59, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Oppose categorizing disambiguation pages other than as disambiguation pages. If, by their contents, they are susceptible to further categorization, then they may be candidates to be converted to set index pages or broad concept articles. bd2412 T 22:25, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

While this is correct, if we want to allow readers to access symphonies by number, the alternative is to have a List of Symphonies No. 2 which either replicates substantially all of the dab page, or is transcluded thereon, or is a redirect to a section. I think this is what the OP is getting at. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:51, 14 March 2018 (UTC).

I understand the policy. I was giving two examples where I believe that exceptions to the policy can be made and to update that policy accordingly. This discussion is whether the exceptions make sense. Moreover, if there is a better way to accomplish my improvements to Misplaced Pages, I am all ears. DexDor is generalizing and cherry picking. I will present a broader picture. The following DABs (which he recently reverted) had been categorized under Category:Pejorative terms for people and some also under Category:Nothing: Fuckwit, Dull, Dork, Daydreamer, Buzzkill, Brainless, Bore, Bonehead, Blockhead, Bad Seed, Absurd, Careless, Drab, Dingbat (disambiguation), and Airhead. Some of these clearly indicate that the term is slang/pejorative, but had not been so categorized. In others, I added such an entry. Note that most are single word entries and that single word (or two word phrase) is known to be pejorative.

Personally, I think that in these cases, categorizing these DABs by WP:Ignore all rules is better then not. That is the question in this policy request - ideally the rules can be improved. DexDor, seeing all of these, he could have been more WP:CIVIL and suggested alternative solutions. I do agree with his Airhead revert (a primary topic) as Airhead (slang) is properly categorized and redirected to Airhead (disambiguation). The other cases don't have a (disambiguation) page - they are one. Cold fish doesn't exist, and I could create it as a DAB with one entry to Cold Fish, but perhaps this last one is a good example where a section in the Cold Fish article could be added stating the the term 'Cold fish' can be used as a pejorative - perhaps in a see also section with a link to wiktionary? Ultimately, are these categorizations useful, and rather than telling me what I cannot do, I would like to know how to go about doing so properly?

One of my first suggestions might meet most objections.

1. Create "phrase (pejorative)" and redirect it to dab "phrase" or "phrase (disambiguation)" if it exists. Categorize the redirect, but not the dab it points to.
2. Update the dab with an entry for this new redirect. Note that this would be circular.

This solution is imperfect for Cold Fish. Dpleibovitz (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

If you want to make all these "Foo (pejorative)" redirects, the disambiguation pages would be inappropriate targets for them. We don't redirect unambiguous terms to disambiguation pages. We have Lists of pejorative terms for people, and probably have specific individual lists hosting the intended meaning of these terms. Compare how Frontal (anatomy), Anterior (anatomy), Posterior (anatomy), and Dorsal (anatomy) all redirect to Anatomical terms of location. bd2412 T 23:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Dullard is in Category:Pejorative terms for people. Dull, quite correctly, isn't. There is an argument for creating Dull (pejorative) as a redirect to an article (not to a dab), putting it in the category, and listing it on dab Dull, though I don't think we should do that because this is an encyclopedia rather than a dictionary. But Dull itself is a navigation page listing things with the spelling D-u-l-l, such as a Scottish town and a musician, and is not about the insult. Certes (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, it is already obvious in the above discussion that this proposal is going to lead nowhere, but let me add that I think the fundamental problem is that proposer has lost sight of the purpose of the categorization system as a tool that connects related content with each other. With a particular emphasis on the word "related" (discussions with proposer about this aspect, see e.g. here and here) - and on the word "content" (i.e. no dab pages, no redirects) - which is subject to discussion here. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:35, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose cases like Brainless, where the categorization is with other articles and based on a WP:DICTDEF (in this case one not included in the article). I'm neutral on categories intended primarily for DAB pages. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

• For the article Cold Fish I have added a hat-note, pointing to Wiktionary. For the disambiguation page Brainless I have added a Wiktionary tag. A short definition could be added to the top of the dab page, this is often done. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC).
  

• Close/Oppose, I am trying out your various suggestions. Am drafting several list articles, but also several broad concept articles. I think the real problem is that some disambiguation pages should become broad concept articles (with proper categorization), and that this process should be facilitated. Am drafting a separate analysis & recommendation for that. Till then, I am happy to close/oppose this policy suggestion. Dpleibovitz (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Quotes (statements)

Hello, does the copyright violation the quote Summer All Stars music group? The statement has 42 words and is on the https://www.informuji.cz/novinky/2023-chinaski-slza-ci-meky-zbirka-predstavuji-leto-lasky/amphtml/ in the second paragraph. --Patriccck (talk) 14:36, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Patriccck you can include short quotations in articles, if that's what you are asking. In terms of length the 42-word quote seems alright. See MOS:QUOTE for how to do this. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs)

Finnusertop Thank you for your answer.--Patriccck (talk) 15:03, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Finnusertop Here is the quote: Léto_lásky#Music_video --Patriccck (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, Patriccck, it's (almost) properly formatted (you have to choose: blockquotes don't have quotations marks; quotes with quotation marks aren't indented). Perhaps add an introductory sentence before it also. Something like "Summer All Stars members commented on the content of the music video: " ... – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Homework, and no intention to publish

I'm troubled by a WikiEd student's declaration at WikiEd content advisor Shalor's talk page, that they "have no intention of publishing  article....". They follow that with a caveat that might lead to publication, but I wonder if that's sufficient to mitigate what seems to me a clear indication of WP:NOTHERE, and a possible violation of WP:NOTHOSTING.

I'm actually not particularly worried about this one case and would be willing to let it go; it's merely symptomatic of my underlying concern. What I'm actually concerned about is policy regarding the limits of editing behavior of students enrolled in WikiEd courses, some, perhaps most, of whom seem to fit the description in WP:NOTHERE to a tee as they are here solely to use WP as a drive-by homework assignment hosting service, never to be seen again once their brownie points letter grade is received, and leaving regular editors to clean up any messes encountered. To some extent, the behavior of such students is similar to any new editor, but differs in that they are essentially required by their instructor to post content in order to succeed in their course, which is very different than the motivations and pressures other newbies experience. So far, I haven't encountered students who are posting on Draft or Talk pages with no intention to publish at all, so maybe that's a new trend.

The outcome I'd like to see, if others agree, is some mention at WP:NOTHERE and/or at WP:NOT of the proper use of Misplaced Pages by students, with the word "homework" in their somewhere (or maybe as a shortcut) so I can find it again if I need it. I'm content to leave the OP to continue hosting their project here, especially since I assume nobody told them they couldn't, but a policy clarification going forward would seem desirable. Mathglot (talk) 04:29, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

• Shalor replied appropriately. It's OK in sandbox, test edits and learning how to use Misplaced Pages is what sandbox is for. Of course, although the quality of articles and edits by students is often disappointing, I would prefer they be WP:BOLD and publish their work (assuming they chose a verifiable and notable topic). Yes, there's clean-up to do, but that's not exclusive to WikiEd students. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

• Notice: listed at Misplaced Pages talk:Here to build an encyclopedia. Mathglot (talk) 04:39, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
• Notice: listed at Misplaced Pages talk:What Misplaced Pages is not. Mathglot (talk) 04:39, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
• Notify: Wiki Ed content advisors Shalor and Ian (and feel free to add other staff if advisable) Mathglot (talk) 04:48, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Notes

1. WP:NOTHERE: Trying to score brownie points outside of Misplaced Pages: Edits intended for the sole purpose of impressing or amusing third parties outside of Misplaced Pages, without expecting the edit to remain in place or caring if it doesn't.
2. Unfortunately, the shortcut WP:HOMEWORK is already taken for something else.

I patrol a lot of draft amd userspace and I've found quite a bit of this homework. It's hard to get rid of it too because, while not suitable for mainspace, it's usually on notable topics and not readily CSDable. We don't need some kid's take on the civil war though, and I'm not here to grade their paper. It's not that the homework is "bad" but it makes it harder to find the bad pages we need to eliminate. Legacypac (talk) 04:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Forgot to mention another outcome I'd like to see, which is some kind of restriction, or at least careful advice to students a priori, of student editors working on articles under Arbcom Discretionary Sanctions. These areas are difficult for any new editor, but when your grade depends upon it, that seems particularly delicate. This would affect a lot of students enrolled in gender-related courses, but that's an area I also work in, and so I'm familiar with some of the problems it creates. Mathglot (talk) 04:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Mathglot: WP:NOTHOMEWORK...? —SerialNumber54129 09:46, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Nice. Mathglot (talk) 11:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

• Not sure that I fully understand what the underlying issue is... what specific problem are we trying to resolve? Blueboar (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Blueboar: Using WP as a webhost I believe. —SerialNumber54129 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Hmm... I’m not sure that this sort of thing falls under WP:NOTWEBHOST. There is at least the POTENTIAL for an article (or article improvement) in situations like this. Sure, the student has said he/she does not intend to publish, but that could change. I don’t see any harm in keeping a draft article in userspace, and I see at least the POTENTIAL for some benefit in doing so. Blueboar (talk) 16:00, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

A difficult one. While the usage for homework does violate policy, we're also dealing with an editor retention issue. It's probably best to be pragmatic and try to avoid biting the children (WP:BITETHECHILDREN?) If a student abandons their article after they get the grade, it's probably best dealt with under G13. There's probably more discussion to be had here if the learning involved (i.e. potential contributions in the future) can be considered as HERE. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 15:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

They are usually not children. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Do not feed the children to the monster under the bed. Do not feed the monster under the bed, because it is a troll. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

• I don't think it's terribly worrying that students working under the aegis of wikiedu are using wikipedia as an assingement submission platform. As long as greater maintenance burden than dealing with any other newbie content. And so for their motives having to do only with completing their assignments: well, there's a spectrum of editor motives. Even if we leave aside editing under any explicit conflicts of interest (which is allowed, and is widespread), we still have a really wide spectrum of motivations. Editors who are here entirely with the purpose to make the encyclopedia great, use different strategies to translate this long-term goal into systems of smaller and more immediately motivating goals, which don't always align with the end-term goal. Students, like so many other kinds of editors, can sometimes be annoying to deal with, but I don't see their motivations as lying particularly close to the "bad" end of the spectrum. And there's the general benefit of outreach: even if the students stop editing after their assignments are submitted, the exposure to wikipedia probably makes them more likely to come back some day. – Uanfala (talk) 04:29, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd say that one of the biggest barriers to getting into editing Misplaced Pages is learning how. It's one of the reasons I took a wikibreak for nearly a year not long after creating my account; So that I could spend time learning and reviewing policies before diving back in, so to speak. I'd say this might help build a crop of future editors; if these are people who already know how, they have the tools to help us build an encyclopedia, should they choose to use them. Icarosaurvus (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Request-Edit Queue for Paid Editors - Policy Issue

There is a thread pending at WP:ANI that appears to be a complaint against User:Spintendo about the service that they are providing on the request-edit queue for conflict of interest editors. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents (oops - I didn't mean to insert the template here) It seems to me that this is a policy issue rather than a conduct issue. As a conduct issue, it is a blatant case of biting the hand that feeds you. The paid editors are asking Spintendo to feed them by making request edits, and are now asking for other neutral editors at the dispute resolution noticeboard to adjudicate their requests, rather than just accepting the fact that Spintendo is doing them a service.

In any case, I agree with the filing party, User:WWB Too, that it may not be appropriate to recommend to companies that they use the request queue, perhaps because it is getting backlogged.

As a policy matter, we need to consider the future of whether and how to provide the service of allowing COI editors to request edits. As I have noted both at DRN and WP:ANI, if a paid editor wants an article that satisfies them, they can always write and host it on their corporate web site. How far should Misplaced Pages, which is maintained by volunteers and provides a neutral point of view, go to assist paid editors in revising the articles on their companies?

Robert McClenon (talk) 23:04, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

They sure shouldn't be editing directly. If it's backlogged, that's fine: a volunteer is essentially making them money for free. They can't really complain. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

In regard to "we need to consider the future of whether and how to provide the service of allowing COI editors to request edits", when we host articles, we do have a responsibility (not individually, but as a project) to ensure their accuracy. As a simple example, imagine an article about an business which we've created that contains incorrect information - perhaps nothing libelous, but significantly out of date and misleading. If someone representing the business turns up and asks for it to be fixed, we can't really just say "go host it on your corporate website" - that's not advantageous to us in building an encyclopedia, it is bad for our readers who rely on this content, and it is not workable for the business. On the other side, if an article is missing content that would make it more accurate and a better depiction of the subject, why not allow an editor with a COI to suggest the change? How does it improve the encyclopaedia to leave worthwhile content out because the requester has a COI? Thus from my perspective, permitting editors with a COI to suggest changes is the minimum we need. - Bilby (talk) 03:28, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I am the original filing editor McClenon refers to; I regret the optics of having to complain about an editor who is ostensibly helping out, but as explained in my initial post, too often it has not been much of a service. Anyway, speaking here as a longtime COI contributor, I'm perfectly happy not making direct edits, especially when there is a reasonably efficient and effective flow of reviews and feedback. In my experience, this has deterioriated over time: first the {{request edit}} queue became seriously backlogged; then it was cleared out by an editor whose content guideline assessments I question.

It doesn't need to be this way, but I'm not remotely surprised by it. First and foremost, there is the community's lukewarm interest in working with COI editors, which is understandable; at best it's a diversion from more altruistic aspects of encyclopedia-building. Second, many COI contributors are clueless—they don't know what to ask for, because few know anything about how Misplaced Pages works. Then there is design: WP:AfC, for all its problems, is easier to find and use and enjoys the participation of more volunteers. But why should it be easier to ask for a whole new article than to merely suggest changes to one that already exists?

I've long thought Template:Request edit should be improved, both in terms of functionality as well as instructions for use: clear advice for COI requestors about how / how not to ask for advice, as well as for volunteer respondents about how / how not to adjudicate them. I even went so far as to write up a kind of brief and circulated it in-person at Wikimania Montreal, calling it the COI Help desk. Might be I should publish it in userspace for consideration. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 12:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

More Thoughts and Questions: Copied from ANI

I have a few thoughts and questions. This has been copied from WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

First, I have a two-part question for User:Spintendo, or for any other volunteer editor who has been working the queue. The first part of the question is: Have some of the edit requests been lengthy or complex? The second part is: Have the edit requests tended to become more lengthy and complex in the past few months? My ulterior motive for asking this is that I wonder whether Spintendo, by addressing simple requests ably, is essentially setting up high expectations that they can work wonders in carrying out complex requests.

Second, I wonder whether there is a cognitive disconnect between what the paid editors and their corporate managers want and what they can get and ask in a volunteer organization. Demands that someone do their job better in various ways (more quickly, more pleasantly, more proficiently, etc.) make sense in an employee content, because the manager has the ultimate option, which they would prefer not to use, to fire the employee, so that the employee really has an incentive to heed the advice to do a better job. However, volunteers are working the edit-request queue, and the corporate managers don’t really have an alternative, other than to put the articles up on the corporate web site. It isn’t realistic to expect that the use of a complaint mechanism such as WP:ANI will result in better volunteer service. As I said yesterday, the only real question is whether the paid editors would prefer to rely entirely on other volunteers without Spintendo. (Also, the fact that the paid editors are rewarding a service with buffets and spitting is a reason why other volunteer editors may prefer not to work the queue.) I am wondering whether the paid editors are using a thought process that is more appropriate to employment than to receiving a voluntary service.

Third, there seems to be agreement that the tool is flawed and can use improvement. Can the paid editors, who are the beneficiaries of the tool, assist in improving the tool to serve them better?

Fourth, and this may be minor but is a persistent subtheme, the paid editors keep saying that they do not want to demand a lot of time, but they are demanding a lot of time. For instance, there have been several requests filed by paid editors at the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) recently. Most recently two of them asked for additional voices or additional volunteer input or review. They wanted a neutral editor to review their requests based on policies and guidelines, that is, one more volunteer after Spintendo, and more time. That is a request for yet more volunteer time after a volunteer has already provided their time in working the edit request queue. They say that they don’t want to demand a lot of time, but they are demanding a lot of time.

Fifth, perhaps the request edit queue needs to be rethought in either of two ways, because it is becoming an unlimited demand for the time of volunteer editors. The first way, the more radical, might be to do away with the request edit queue and instead to allow them to edit the articles, with their edits declared as COI in edit summaries, subject to 1RR, and to impose very strict limits on their use of dispute resolution mechanisms. The second way, the less radical, might be simply to impose very strict, probably zero, limits on their use of dispute resolution mechanisms. That is, since they are requesting a voluntary service from the volunteer editors, stop re-litigating the requests.

Sixth, I come back to where I started, with a question for the paid editors. It is unrealistic to expect that Spintendo will be a different editor than Spintendo is, and it seems that is what they are asking. This noticeboard isn’t meant to sound out vague policy complaints; it is meant to request administrative action. The only administrative action that can be provided is some restriction on Spintendo working the edit queue. Is that really what the paid editors want? If so, I suggest that Spintendo simply leave the request edit queue, proudly, knowing that he has done his job as well as he could, and got buffets and spitting. If not, maybe the paid editors should thank Spintendo rather than complaining.

Since I replied to all the same questions at AN/I, here's an adapted set of answers for this discussion. And as I'd said before, I accept that raising these issues exposes me to criticism. However, to call my post "buffets and spitting" is to presuppose I don't have any legitimate points to make. As you might expect, I believe that is incorrect. Anyway, the questions:

1. Have requests become more complex? I don't think so; I do acknowledge that requests from myself and my colleagues are more involved than most, but there's a tradeoff to consider: is it better for the PR consultant to ask for a few changes with links to sources, as some do, or to present finished prose with formatted citations and a clear explanation of how the material is intended to benefit the reader? The latter is our approach, and I think it actually saves time for volunteers, if the volunteers are receptive.
2. Are there mismatched expectations from a corporate vs. volunteer perspective? Potentially yes, but it's not insurmountable. I spend a lot of time explaining Misplaced Pages's community expectations to people who work in corporate settings, because they both tend to have very different experiences. My efforts have always been about bridging this gap. In any case, Misplaced Pages is too important for brands to not care what is said about them here. But Misplaced Pages should also care about these articles for Misplaced Pages's own sake.
3. Can the {{request edit}} tool be improved? Absolutely. It's difficult to find and use, even from a volunteer perspective. And once one has discovered it, there is scant advice to volunteers on how to consider requests, and how to respond. I am sure even Spintendo would agree they are making it up as they go along; where we differ is that I think the results have been wildly mixed, and eventually too problematic to ignore. Obviously, I think it would be better if more editors were involved. It's something I'd be happy to work on, if there might be community support for the undertaking.
4. Are paid editors demanding too much time? Misplaced Pages guidelines instruct us to ask for volunteer time. We realize this is a precious resource, so in our edit requests we're careful in what we ask for and try to make it easy to agree with us. We also try not to present too much at once. All that any of us are asking for is fair adjudication; my colleagues have asked for more volunteer time only because this has not happened.
5. How might the process be changed? Limiting COI contributors' access to dispute resolution is a terrible idea: to do otherwise is to grant too much power to the first person who happens to reply. In theory I am not opposed to allowing direct editing with close oversight, but there is not and likely never will be support for this from the community. It's funny, though: this is pretty much how all the other Misplaced Pages language editions work. English is the outlier in this way.
6. What am I asking for? This question isn't really germane to this board, and is addressed in more detail at AN/I. But for those wondering, I think the discussion has come to a close without administrative oversight being necessary.

To summarize: I don't think the edit request process has got much worse, just different. It used to have a backlog, and that was a problem. It now has only one responding editor, who has some odd interpretations of content guidelines, and that is a problem. In order for this to change, the tool itself, the instructions for its use, and the conversation around the process likely need updating. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:11, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Comments

• Comment: I don’t work the COI queue but my initial reaction was that the original request should have been brought up at WP:COIN or its Talk page, not ANI. ANI seemed inappropriate given that COI queue is a volunteer project. If the COI editors are not satisfied with the way the queue is handled, then it’s what it is. Singling out a particular editor seemed inappropriate as well.

With that out of the way, I would support restrictions on COI editors of using DR boards relating to COI content, as it’s a further burden on the community time. The exception to this could be COIN, since editors there are familiar with COI matters. Inappropriate requests could be quickly shut down, while cases of egregious content-related matters could be looked at. (For the record, I don’t see any egregious behaviour on the part of the volunteer editor being discussed in the present ANI posting). ANI should be limited to issues of harassment, outing, hounding, etc. – behaviour rather than content; i.e. protections accorded to any editor, whether volunteer or COI.

I would oppose allowing COI editors changing the articles directly, as many articles may not be on the watch lists of volunteer editors. Dealing with these matters after the fact would be time consuming and non-productive. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, User:K.e.coffman - My concern that maybe the COI editors should edit directly was because their demands for volunteer editors, both to make their editors and then to adjudicate, via DRN and formal mediation, was even more of a drag on the time of the volunteer editors. For that reason, as much as I dislike all paid editing, I would prefer to let the paid editors edit directly and be subject to 0RR, and not give them access to content forums. In any case, I would like to deny them access to content forums, where the requests at DRN were becoming burdensome. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:40, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: That's why I suggested WP:COIN as an outlet for dispute resolution on COI-related matters. I think it's best suited to resolve content disputes and behavioural concerns. If you look at the current threads at COIN, you'll see both. No need for more bureaucracy. Perhaps an RfC to this effect may be advisable? K.e.coffman (talk) 16:47, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

User:K.e.coffman - Well, the reason why that previous thread was brought at WP:ANI and not at WP:COIN should be clear, if unpleasant. The COI editors were acting in a self-serving manner, in the hope of gaining something, and they knew that COIN would not accomplish what they were trying to accomplish, which was to bully an editor into working the COI queue in a more compliant manner. They knew that there would be pushback at COIN. They took their chances at WP:ANI, and got pushback. I am not entirely happy with the result, because it was merely closed as a "trial balloon" without any formal rebuke to them for bullying -- and bullying was exactly the purpose of the thread at WP:ANI. I hope that the neutral editors here agree that the purpose of the WP:ANI thread was an unsuccessful effort at bullying. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that it was bullying. My original post was milder, but that's what I had in mind. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As a long term solution I like the suggestion made by K.e.coffman. Channeling all COI/PAID processes into a forum with editors who know how to deal with the issue would be the best solution. I do not necessarily think the community at large would support ghettoizing paid editors though I disagree. Many COI/PAID articles are not well watched. That is why they need to use edit requests to bring attention to their proposals. 0RR is no help if there is no one there to challenge them and they would still need some way to address disagreements which come up should they be reverted. Paid editors are essentially guests in out house. We should be accommodating to those who are not burdensome. The way, I believe, to address paid editors which become a burden to our processes, or companies which allow their editors to become so, is to simply de-prioritize our responses to them. If they demand more time than you think appropriate — only spend as much time as you think right. If you think the request burdensome deny it or leave it unanswered. If you think a paid editor or group of editors are placing unreasonable demands, tell them and if they do not reform — placing unreasonable burdens on Misplaced Pages processes is disruptive editing; Choosing not to facilitate a paid editor's business is not. I know it goes against most people's better nature to say 'no' but just like in any type of relationship if one does not set boundaries, one is very likely to get abused. The only real power any of us have here is how we decide to use our time. If a paid editor is demanding more time be spent on them than could be expected to be spent on a volunteer editor then they are being disruptive and can wait until someone thinks it reasonable to get to their request. Consensus on the propriety of this strategy is easily gauged by seeing for how long other volunteers also decide they do not want to spend their time on the request. If they force the issue, well, I would really like to see the paid editor with the guts to complain again about how a volunteer is not spending enough of their personal time to make someone else money. Jbh 17:10, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

User:Jbhunley - Am I to understand then that you (and possibly other editors) agree that content forums like DRN and requests for mediation may reasonably treat requests from COI editors as something to be addressed only when there are no other disputes involving neutral editors? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I think that requests to DRN and requests for mediation should simply be declined and referred to COIN. If COIN is unsuccessful at resolving the dispute, then ANI may be a possibility. But COIN should be the first "port of call" for COI related matters, including the edit queue. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Robert McClenon: Personally I would not knock them to back of the queue just for being a PE or COI but I would support anyone who chose to. If they were wasting time or, in the case of PE bringing lots of cases from their 'stable' I could see doing that or even completely refuse to work with them. Depending of how much strain they, or in the case of a group of PE their compatriots, have been it may be worthwhile to leave a note explaining to them, and other volunteers, why their case is not being addressed. It probably would take a policy change to be able to close such cases out of hand but, so long as another volunteer can choose to help them, refusing to act does not. By explaining why their issue is not being addressed other volunteers can, if they choose, take that into consideration when they choose whether to respond or not. Basically what I am describing is social enforcement of normative behavior or, less pretentiously, peer pressure — not policy/procedure change. (I do not think it would be possible to get an RfC consensus on DRN changes.) It depends on the community, or that part of it which deals with facilitating processes paid editors need, simply refusing excessive requests. Paid editors need cooperation from volunteers and some, like those who brought this matter up, are getting pushy and need to have their expectations recalibrated. I would be interested in being pinged to any discussion or complaint about paid editors complaining about volunteers choosing not to facilitate their work. Jbh 19:49, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

At this point, I kind of doubt that you will be pinged, because I kind of doubt that another such thread will be filed, because I think it was clear that no one had any sympathies with the complaints. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree but I just wanted register my interest to avoid canvassing accusations if one comes up. I do think there will be a push back from some PE group if/when they see volunteers really are not at their call. My guess is the second or third time members of one of the organized groups can not get a complaint through DRN or finds that decisions of the first responder to edit requests are generally being upheld or not reviewed further ie when it starts to hit the bottom line, they will raise a stink. It would be foolish on their part and probably get them ghettoized at COIN, as K.e.coffman suggests. (and with which I agree ) I'd say six to eight months assuming volunteer editors actually do choose to push back against excessive calls on their time. Jbh 00:27, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I too want to avoid anything that could be seen as canvassing, but I would like, at this time, to remind the volunteer editors that we, the volunteer editors, are Misplaced Pages, and that we are not here to serve paid editors, but only to see to neutral point of view, and that our only responsibility to paid editors is to listen to them in order to maintain neutral point of view, and that we are in agreement that we have a right to disregard unreasonable requests and that we have a right not only to push back but to take whatever action must be taken if we are bullied. (And we were bullied in the WP:ANI thread, and we stood our ground.) Robert McClenon (talk) 04:19, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Archive links for "deadurl=no"

What is the consensus on adding archive links, en masse, to articles when unneeded, IOW "deadurl=no"? This adds an enormous amount of bloat, much of which will not be needed.

If this is the wrong forum, please point me in the right direction. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 18:54, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of the bloat. OTOH, that way, the links keep working if they go dead, or if they change to say something else, so I'm not completely opposed to the bloat. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

It appears a different board is getting more response, so let's continue this at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Noticeboard#Archive links for "deadurl=no" -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 20:21, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Infobox RFC

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

In closing the Civility in infobox discussions arbitration case, the Arbitration committee recommended ...well-publicized community discussions be held to address whether to adopt a policy or guideline addressing what factors should weigh in favor of or against including an infobox in a given article and how those factors should be weighted. As an editor who has not previously been involved in favor or against infobox usage and therefore a (hopefully) neutral party, I'm opening this discussion here. A prior call for discussion did not clarify standards for infobox usage. That leaves two policy questions in this latest recommendation:

1. Are infoboxes necessary for articles generally
2. How editors decide if infoboxes are necessary on particular articles

It seems logical to decide the first before the second.

The spectrum of options for the first question logically runs from "infoboxes everywhere" to "infoboxes nowhere". The previous infobox Arbitration decision, however, found that: he use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article by site policies or guidelines. The extreme policy options of "every article should have an infobox" and "no article should have an infobox" are therefore not offered as options here. The spectrum of remaining options is:

• Infoboxes are used by default on most articles – removing one from an article with one requires talk page consensus
• Infoboxes are used by default on broad class(es) of articles (e.g., biographies, biological species, etc.) – removing one from an article with one requires talk page consensus (Note: the obverse is therefore also true, articles not in the defined class(es) by default omit infoboxes.)

*Infoboxes are used by default on some more-restricted subset(s) of articles (e.g., music biographies, invertebrate species, etc.) – removing one from an article with one requires talk page consensus (Note: the obverse is therefore also true, articles not in the defined subset(s) by default omit infoboxes.)

• Infoboxes are neither used by default nor omitted by default – adding one to an article without one or removing one from an article with one requires talk page consensus

*Infoboxes are omitted by default on some more-restricted subset(s) of articles (e.g., music biographies, invertebrate species, etc.) – adding one to an article without one requires talk page consensus (Note: the obverse is therefore also true, articles not in the defined subset(s) by default include infoboxes.)

• Infoboxes are omitted by default on broad class(es) of articles (e.g., biographies, biological species, etc.) – adding one to an article without one requires talk page consensus (Note: the obverse is therefore also true, articles not in the defined class(es) by default include infoboxes.)
• Infoboxes are omitted by default on most articles – adding one to an article without one requires talk page consensus

Wikiprojects would be the most logical place to determine which articles come under the "broad classes" and "some more-restricted subset" options, where active projects exist.

Request to !voters: To assist the future closers of this RfC in assessing consensus on so many options, it is requested that editors only place a support !vote in the subsection below that most closely aligns with their preferred option. Oppose !votes are not necessary and should be assumed for the remaining other options. I recognize that this "support only one option" request eliminates nuanced views but this is by design. Previous discussions have not yielded much clarity, so clarity is preferred here over nuance. Discussions to determine the exact parameters of the selected option, as well as question #2 listed above, will be presented later. Thank you in advance for your help. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:13, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Infoboxes are included by default on most articles

1. This is the de facto status quo (and thus, this !poll is unhelpful) - the issue being around what is meant by "most", and under what conditions exceptions should apply. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:56, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of Infoboxes wherever possible but agree with Pigsonthewing that "most" need to be clarified. Capankajsmilyo (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Infoboxes are included by default on broad classes of articles

1. Consistency between similar articles is helpful, both to us editors and to the readers. And this consistency can best be achieved by consensus at the WikiProject level, where the discussion can also address exceptions to whatever general rule might be fashioned there. NewYorkActuary (talk) 16:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
2. Something that had been brought up in a previous discussion is the use of infoboxes when it helps to place people or other topics in a system that has a very strong hierarchical nature. For example, politicians, professional athletes on teams, leading executives of public companies, etc. That's usually where there's a lot of detail that doesn't need to be repeated word for word in the lede prose, but should be summarized quickly for placing that person or topic in this strong hierarchical structure. That's principally the only cases where such infoboxes should be a requirement, but that should be decided prior by appropriate discussion. Outside of this, the use of infoboxes should not be mandated (for or against inclusion), and decided on a more narrow basis. --Masem (t) 18:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
3. Handling the issue at the Project level is the only option that makes sense. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Infoboxes are neither included nor omitted by default

1. For the umpteenth time this is the only "default" option that makes sense. It is the only option that truly is "one size fits all". Since the last time one of these came up I have edited on several thousand articles that don't have infoboxes and they don't have enough info to support one. There should not be a policy forcing one on them. It is my hope that this ends the repetitive nature of this. MarnetteD|Talk 21:30, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
2. As per above and below. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
3. I think the current policy is perfectly fine. A small subset of editors have behavioral issues in following existing policy, but that doesn't mean the policy is bad. I think ArbCom did a disservice by trying to advise the community that they should change policy when it's not clear that there are any current issues with it. This discussion is itself likely to get contentious, and I doubt anything will change. ~ Rob₁₃ 00:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
4. This will have to be determined on each article's Talk page, I'm afraid. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
5. If an RfC can help (which I doubt), it's not about policy. Policy can't decide if an article is better with infobox or without. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
6. Infoboxes obviously make sense on some articles (e.g. Golden Gate Bridge), they obviously do not make sense on other articles (e.g. Memory), and on other articles the answer is not obvious either way. Therefore this is the only policy about their default inclusion or exclusion that can actually work in practice - and it has been working. The problem around infoboxes is one of behaviour not of policy. Thryduulf (talk) 14:09, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
7. Isn't this what we have always, consistently come up with? Consensus over many years of discussions has ALWAYS been that Misplaced Pages policy is agnostic on the use or non-use of infoboxes. There is no way to reliably predict which articles it is appropriate in, and which it is not. As noted several times above, the problem is not the infobox per se, the problem is that some people aren't willing to work well with others; the problems in this field have always been with behavior. People who have been sanctioned about infobox wars would have been sanctioned for something else anyways. We need to continue with the default, existing, stable position we've always had, which is "Misplaced Pages has no position for or against the use of infoboxes in articles". The realm of when and how to use them is the scope of the Wikiprojects and of talk page discussions. --Jayron32 14:17, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
8. This has already been discussed to death. Natureium (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
9. Infoboxes should be included if they are useful in a particular article according to local consensus. This proposal seems unnecessarily WP:CREEPY. AdA&D ★ 14:53, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
10. This really needs to be stated again?! How many nails does this coffin need? Jbh 16:09, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
11. Any BLP, or geographic location, or many other classes of articles should have an infobox. None of the alternatives in the RFC seem to cover this properly. If someone adds a useful infobox then it should not be removed. Certainly to get a B class or GA or FA rating there should be an info box. But for stubs, it is not expected. It should not be "required" for articles, but their absence proves the immaturity of the article, and demonstrates their lower quality. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
12. Agree that it's down to an article-by-article basis. The !vote above on a quality bar has been dismissed before on several grounds (rightly, in my opinion), and to claim a lack of IB somehow demonstrates lower quality is laughable, given the large number of GA and FA articles without. The presence or absence of an IB is not, and never has been, any indication of quality. - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
13. First, we are not writing a database, we are writing an encyclopedia. Articles are just fine without as long as they contain what they encyclopedically speaking should contain. There is no need to introduce an infobox to have a good article. That being said, for certain subjects having an infobox summarizing the key 'immutable' data certainly has encyclopedic value (and I am a strong believer that having a machine-readable infobox can help us in protecting and identifying the subject directly). On certain classes of subject it makes sense to, nearly standard, include one (as sometimes they include data that is senseless to put in prose, but is encyclopedically relevant) (e.g. as a chemist: unique identifiers for chemicals are senseless in prose, but are needed in the document as to uniquely identify, help in expansion and to be able to uniquely find it from outside Misplaced Pages). On other subjects it is less relevant as there is no (or not a significant amount of) unique/identifying/immutable data (memory, or as a chemist again, chemical reactions). So as a rule: certain classes of subjects should (not must!) have an infobox. That is to be decided on a per-class basis (which could be guided by WikiProjects) but with the strong realization that within said classes there will nearly always be odd cases within a class where an infobox does not make sense. --Dirk Beetstra 13:58, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

    Seen some !votes on the 'Infoboxes are included by default on broad classes of articles' I want to clarify myself here on a point: strictly speaking, 'classes of articles' do not exist. Yes, it makes sense to have an infobox on all living people (after all, they have some immutable data like a day of birth), but there will always be exceptions. 'Things' can fall into different classes, where one class is a 'generally yes', and another class is a 'depends strongly' - or some 'things' belong strongly to two classes where both classes are a 'generally yes', but would have distinctly independent infoboxes (chemical compounds are sometimes classified both as a 'chemical', but also a 'drug' (which is a chemical after all), when the situation is 'more drug than general chemical', then a drugbox is included, if the situation is 'a drug, but more general chemical', then a chembox is included - but there are chemicals which both have a strong drug-use and a strong chemical (Lithium is an extreme example, it is an element, a chemical and a drug). Many chemical elements have mainly a chemical use (and the elemental form is not encountered in real life), still we do not chose a chembox. And whereas metals are elements, chemicals (and sometimes drugs), mixtures of metals (alloys) are also chemicals (and some have distinct chemical use in chemistry), still this 'class' of articles does not have infoboxes (and IMHO, should not have).

    All those cases need independent discussion, even when belonging to multiple infobox-wielding classes, and independent solutions need to be found. --Dirk Beetstra 05:49, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

14. This is really the only choice and it reflects current editing guidelines. It's a great foundation but falters amidst the guideline for its failure to formally recognize "consensus through editing".--John Cline (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
15. Editors are capable of determining which articles would benefit from an infobox in each article's talk page, without need for some global rule. Whatever wars start up over infoboxes are problems of individual editor behavior, not flawed policy. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 16:13, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
16. This is a behavioral issue that follows a familiar pattern: An editor goes around to dozens of articles adding/deleting infoboxes, changing every instance of "analyze" to "analyse", realigning photos or what have you. When reverted and asked to explain themselves, they act like you just told them that they should wear their pants inside out and give some variation of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT ("Disrupts the flow", "Looks atrocious", "it's disrespectful to summarize this person's life this way"). It's a tremendous time sink as editors are made to justify basic, commonly-accepted practices. I'm not sure if we have a specific policy for this, but it's the type of disruption that we should shut down immediately rather than humoring with endless content discussions. –dlthewave ☎ 17:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
17. - whether any given article should have an infobox (or not) should be determined on an article by article basis. For some there is an obvious benefit to having an infobox, for others there is a benefit to not having one, and for yet others it does not really matter one way or the other. So no default... decide on an article by article basis. The key is: If reverted (in either direction) -DON’T EDIT WAR over the issue... instead, go to the talk page and discuss it. Blueboar (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
18. This is clearly the site-wide consensus, and anything other than this risks driving some contributors to abandon the project. There are a variety of factors that can take a part. We should be talking about what factors to use, trying to break it down into a clear and consistent formula, not debating a general rule that won't work. Tamwin (talk) 05:55, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
19. There cannot be a rule about it. Infoboxes are suitable for some articles but not others and their use must be determined by consensus on a case by case basis.Smeat75 (talk) 12:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
20. Don't micromanage style. Carrite (talk) 13:27, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
21. Needs to be decided on a case by case basis. Kaldari (talk) 03:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
22. This can only be done on a case-by-case basis. AIRcorn (talk) 05:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
23. Agree that this can only be handled cogently on a case by case basis. TransporterMan (TALK) 16:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
24. Must be case by case. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:55, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
25. While ideally my preference would be to include infoboxes in broad classes of articles (the option above), I wouldn't be fond of a strict implementation in practice. Like, are infoboxes necessary for very short articles? I think they're useful and articles should ideally have them, but absolutely requiring them is unnecessary and editors should have at least some common sense on when they're needed and when they're not. Narutolovehinata5 00:48, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
26. I'm sympathetic to the idea of having them on broad classes of articles, but I think such a thing is probably unworkable. I'd prefer a situation in which an infobox is only added where it can be shown that it is superior to a well written lede in imparting information to the reader. Lankiveil 03:27, 3 April 2018 (UTC).

Infoboxes are omitted by default on most articles

Additional proposals

Here are some additional proposals for the community to chew on. Maybe they'll let us get something out of this RFC. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Talk Page Template

After a discussion on the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox in a page has finished, a template should be placed near the top of the associated talk page. At a minimum, this template should include a link to the discussion, the date that the discussion concluded, and the result of the discussion.

Support

1. This will allow editors to quickly see if there is an existing consensus for an infobox on any given article. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
2. I wouldn't make it policy, but it wouldn't hurt to have a link at the top of a talk page to an earlier conversation about an infobox or any other detailed discussion that results in consensus on that specific article. Jack N. Stock (talk) 22:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
3. I think infoboxes clearly are special in this regard, otherwise we wouldn't have been discussing them for this long. This provides a clear record of prior discussion so that hopefully avoid discussing things over and over again, or at least make people think twice about starting another discussion without a good reason. Tamwin (talk) 06:02, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose - WP:CCC, and hammering a talkpage with discussion like this is just plainly disruptive. Infoboxes are not special. --Dirk Beetstra 05:43, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
2. I agree with Dirk Beetstra. Segregating all things infobox from routine editing is merely continuing in the wrong direction at an accelerated pace.--John Cline (talk) 06:45, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
3. Oppose as noted above, the problems with infoboxes are the problems with the people editing disruptively, not with infoboxes in general. If the people involved just stopped being a problem (either voluntarily or with some "help" from the community) this would all go away, and we wouldn't need to remind people of these discussions. If we need to have the discussions, have them, but otherwise there's nothing inherently controversial about infoboxes. --Jayron32 14:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
4. Oppose For the most contentious cases, an {{faq}} is sufficient. BillHPike (talk, contribs) 15:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
5. Weak Oppose Per Beetstra, and because there's already so much at the top of many talk pages that folks ignore it. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:28, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Discussion Intervals

Unless the article has changed extensively since the last discussion, a discussion on the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox should not be repeated within X months of the previous discussion closing.

Support

1. As proposer Tazerdadog (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose - per above, WP:CCC, and there is no time-limit for that. It takes only one diff to significantly expand an article whereupon an infobox may be warranted. However, hammering a talkpage with these discussions may be disruptive. Infoboxes are not something special. --Dirk Beetstra 05:45, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Proper value of X

Six months seems like a good floor, I don't think consensus is likely to change that quickly.

Non-stub biographies default

If a discussion on including or excluding an infobox in a non-stub biography reaches a result of no consensus, the result should be:

Include the infobox

1. The vast majority of non-stub biographies should ideally have infoboxes. This nudges the process in that direction. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Exclude the infobox

Maintain the status of the longstanding version before the discussion started

1. As for pretty much every other sort of discussion where no consensus can be reached. Lankiveil 03:28, 3 April 2018 (UTC).

Other discussion

N.B: The "broad classes" and "some more-restricted subset" options given above include to some extent their own obverse interpretations. The reason that I have given both options is that defining these groups by inclusion or by exclusion may yield different results. Thank you. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:13, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

• Sigh... GMG 21:28, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
• This again? — Insertcleverphrasehere 21:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, this again. The ArbCom proceedings haven't gained any clarity and it keeps coming up over and over again. If we don't try to nail down something it will just keep going and going... Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:48, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Its going to get 'no consensus to do anything about infoboxes whatsoever' again because infoboxes are a subjective content decision that is highly variable depending on the article content, and so cannot be mandated yes or no on a site-wide basis. The very premise goes against consensus article writing. Which is why it hasnt gone anywhere previously and is unlikely to go anywhere now without a mass-exclusion of people from both sides of the constant infobox argument from participating. And the more choices in an RFC the less likely any sort of firm consensus will appear. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The options in this RfC don't really make much sense. As far as I can tell, every single option amounts to the same thing: "Infoboxes should be used on some articles but not others". Using nebulous terms like 'broad' and 'most' are not going to stop discussions on individual pages, even if consensus could be reached (it wont). RfC's with multiple options almost always fail, but in this case I don't even really see more than one option. In any case, just more wasted time arguing about infoboxes. The RfC could have asked something simple like: "In the case of articles where there is no consensus about whether to include an infobox, the default should be to include/exclude the infobox." (i.e. override the current situation of 'maintain the status quo when there is no-consensus'). In that case it might have been food for thought (not that I would expect a consensus anyway). But as written, this RfC is even more of a time waste than the infobox discussions themselves (no offence meant toward Eggishorn). — Insertcleverphrasehere 22:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Insertcleverphrasehere:, no offense taken, although I think that summary misses the explicit requirement to get consensus before changing infoboxes. I tried to present options based on prior discussions. From what I can tell, the pattern has been: raging argument on some page -> AN/ANI community -> punts to Arbcom -> Arbcom Case/AE -> ArbCom punts back to community -> around we go again. If this RfC fails, well, so be it. At least its then clear that RfC's won't work. I obviously hope that editors will read the options closely and pick just one. Maybe they will, maybe they won't but at least it will have been tried. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eggishorn (talk • contribs) 19:01, March 28, 2018 (UTC)

• This RfC should be withdrawn as it cannot help and is only another place to berate opponents. Either infoboxes are mandatory or they are not. Anything else cannot solve the problem of what happens when drive-by editors add an infobox to an article they have not developed and do not maintain. Johnuniq (talk) 23:20, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I have simplified the options based on the feedback so far. SInce nobody has indicated preference, I doubt this changes anything. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:00, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

But what should happen when a drive-by editor adds an infobox to an article they have not developed and do not maintain? Johnuniq (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: whatever happens to any other "drive-by" edit. Drive by edits have no inherent lack of worth and article maintainers have no ownership of articles. If the consensus was that adding an infobox required talk page consensus, then one added without discussion, whether by a drive-by editor or not, would be removed. If the consensus was that adding an infobox was the norm, then one added without discussion would be an improvement. It's no different from drive-by BLP edits, for example. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:26, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

It's easy to say that, but here we are after years of fighting. Johnuniq (talk) 01:01, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

There are also drive-by infobox removers. The real problem has been that, until now, edit-warring has been the usual way of deciding on infoboxes. Requests for Comments are a better way of deciding than edit-warring. I am aware that there will be a lot of RFCs. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:44, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Can we give this a break for awhile? It hasn't been very long since the last discussion/RFC, so I dont think you're going to consensus if you haven't already. Please try again later. RudolfRed (talk) 00:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• The extreme options not being offered due to ARBCOM commentary is way off the mark (mind you, I doubt you'd find consensus for them), as ARBCOM wasn't saying "the community is not allowed to require such" (they don't get to decide that), ARBCOM was saying that "these !rules literally don't exist right now, so anyone acting as if there are !rules on the matter is offbase". --Izno (talk) 04:58, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• As much as I don't like it. It appears as though an 'article by article basis' is the only way. An across the board rule, just isn't going to get an agreement :( GoodDay (talk) 12:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
• This RFC won't solve anything. My opinion is that talk page consensus should only be necessary for inclusion or exclusion if an infobox is disputed, with the "no consensus" outcome dependent on how long the infobox was in place for. Iffy★Chat -- 13:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

  I fully agree. Unfortunately, unless WP:INFOBOXUSE is changed, this kind of sensible approach is superseded by the guideline. A review of this discussion can shed light on the kinds of argumentation one can continue to expect unless the guideline formally recognizes "consensus through editing" which it currently does not.--John Cline (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@John Cline:, I believe that the results here, being a more high-profile and better-attended area of the project than the MOS talk pages, can be considered adequate to modify the Manual of Style section. For example, this page has 3,235 watchers and the MOS talkpage has 243 watchers. Please correct me if that conclusion is wrong. Thank you for your comment. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• Eggishorn, I take issue with the phrasing of option three, Infoboxes are neither used by default nor omitted by default – adding one to an article without one or removing one from an article with one requires talk page consensus.

What happened to WP:BRD? As far as I'm aware, the status quo is that people can usually add an infobox to an article without taking it to the talk page first. AdA&D ★ 15:03, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Eggishorn and Anne drew Andrew and Drew: BRD does apply in practice - in almost all cases where someone adds an infobox to an article it is uncontroversial and no discussion is required because people, by and large, don't add infoboxes to articles where they are not appropriate. The addition or removal of specific fields in an infobox requires discussion more often, but again this is a minority of cases overall. Thryduulf (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment It would be best if this RFC ended with a consensus on what factors should be weighed in the decision to add an infobox. I think there is a broad consensus that arguments to the effect of "I don’t like how infoboxes look" are not valid reasons to exclude infoboxes (WP:IDONTLIKEIT). In contrast, I feel many editors would likely agree that infoboxes should be excluded if the proposed content is subjective classifications for which WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV applies. BillHPike (talk, contribs) 04:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
  • @Billhpike: I agree that your first example is "IDONTLIKEIT", however your second example is not a good one as the answer depends on context - e.g. what other fields are the in the (proposed) infobox? (i.e. one subjective field does not alter the objectivity of other fields), is or can the subjective content be attributed? (infoboxes can contain references), how relevant is this to the subject's notability? is there an alternative way of expressing the information that is (more) objective (e.g. putting "the hardest-working man in showbusiness" as a nickname rather than known for)? How controversial is the subjective statement? (e.g. if essentially everybody agrees that Major General Smith was the most flamboyant commander of the Fooian Wars that's very different to describing someone as the most controversial president of the 20th century (a quick google search suggests arguments are made for JFK, Nixon and FDR at least)). Thryduulf (talk) 10:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Billhpike:, I thought, in structuring the RfC, it would be best to determine inclusion status before inclusion factors. That is, if the "all by default" or "none by default" options were to gain consensus, then that would create a different follow-up question than if the "broad classes" option were. I hope this helps. Thanks for your comment. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment All the options seem to want "talk page consensus" to add or remove an infobox. Personally, I think they are helpful to some articles, and I have added them without realizing that talk page consensus is expected. They don't usually contain contentious or dubious content, so why do we need "consensus" to put verifiable facts into a concise format? If I put a proposal for an infobox on a talk page, do I need one person to agree? Ten people? Do I wait a week and add the infobox if nobody replies, assuming that means there are no objections? Or does it take a month? On the other hand (although I'm not sure why anyone would remove an infobox if the entire content is relevant and verifiable), if someone wants to remove an infobox, do they need one person to agree? Ten people? Wait a day, a week, a month? This makes what I thought was a routine inclusion in various articles (such as buildings, companies, locations, people) into a contentious issue, despite the fact that I don't remember ever seeing anyone object to an infobox on my watchlist. I've never had a dispute with anyone about either adding or removing an infobox, and rarely even about the content of an infobox. Why are we having this discussion? Jack N. Stock (talk) 16:20, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
  • No you do not need to 'consensus' first. You only need consensus when someone objects. If no one has objected previously, and no one objects to you after adding it. Consensus is considered to be implicitly given. WP:EDITCONSENSUS - the likely explanation is that you have not added an infobox in a topic area/article where it doesnt really suit. If so, great. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jacknstock:, thank you for your comment and to add to what Only in death says, the reason we are having this discussion is the Arbitration Committee decision linked in the RfC statement above, which is actually the second time the issue of inclusion or omission of infoboxes has been brought to that committee. There have also been innumerable other infobox disputes, AN/ANI threads, and other disruptions as some of the above comments and !votes indicate. There is a Manual of Style page on infoboxes which says: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article and that inclusion or exclusion is determined by consensus. You've been obviously complying with that already. The options here add to that the explicit requirement of talk page discussion to add or remove one and also clarify whether infoboxes should or should not be considered the default option. The rest of the questions will (optimistically) be clarified in later discussion. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:39, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I imagined "talk page consensus" was different to implicit consensus (i.e., involving an actual talk page discussion). Only in death does duty end seemed to say that was not the case, in which case I can go on my way and consider this no further. However, Eggishorn has muddied this by saying that "the options here add to that the explicit requirement of talk page discussion to add or remove one." So, I'm still confused. The current consensus seems to be that I can WP:BOLDly add an infobox. All the options offered seem to involve adding to policy "explicit requirement of talk page discussion" before I can add an infobox. Jack N. Stock (talk) 16:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jacknstock:, Only in death is correct, you don't have to change anything in your editing at this time. Whether you will in the future or not is still undetermined. Even if the RfC determines that talk page consensus is required, then simply stating you have added one is likely enough in the articles you have been editing (see (WP:SILENT). Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:58, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that all four listed options include "requires talk page consensus." Another option is to keep the current policy that does not require talk page consensus. I support this fifth option. The vast majority of editors implicitly (there's that word again) support the status quo; if not, we'd already have literally millions of discussions about infoboxes on talk pages, yet, from my experience, it appears the vast majority of articles with infoboxes do not have a discussion about the infobox on their talk pages. Jack N. Stock (talk) 18:36, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The Arbitration Committee recommends that well-publicized community discussions be held to address whether to adopt a policy or guideline addressing what factors should weigh in favor of or against including an infobox in a given article and how those factors should be weighted. A possible outcome of this discussion would be "No, do not adopt any policy", but the RfC jumps right into "What should the policy be?". I believe that the ArbCom remedy will be sufficient to address disruptive behavior that is already counter to our community standards without adopting additional policies. –dlthewave ☎ 18:59, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm very concerned that everytime this is brought up, there is a broad group of editors very interested in shutting down any type of discussion about it, it doesn't seem right and it prevents us from having a meaningful discussion. Perhapse we need an administration intervention to start a discussion where users are not allowed to criticize the meta aspect of the discussion itself.I think, at this stage. this is the only way this can be sorted out. --Deathawk (talk) 00:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

RFC: Embedding and use of long-form externally produced videos in medical articles

There is currently an RfC ongoing at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine#RfC: Should Misplaced Pages contain video summaries of diseases? And how should they be presented? Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC(note new address) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Background: An outside company, Osmosis, has prepared approximately 300 long-form videos that seek to summarize the key points of important medical topics. The videos are predominantly animated slide-show format, with runtimes between about 3 and 10 minutes. The videos have been embedded in a large number of Misplaced Pages articles, placed either in infoboxes or in the first section of the article body after the lead.

Concerns about the videos' content, provenance, and appropriate usage within Misplaced Pages were raised recently at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine and User talk:Jimbo Wales. This RfC is the first large-scale discussion of whether, where, or how these videos should (or should not) be used in Misplaced Pages articles or to supplement Misplaced Pages's content. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:26, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Lists of current/ongoing X

Relevant AfD:
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of ongoing protests and civil unrest

WP:NOTNEWS and Misplaced Pages:Recentism "can" be used to justify deleting articles which solely focus on current events, and as time goes by, existing content is to be deleted in favor of completely new up-to-date content. I am proposing to restrict this arbitrary creation of "current event" articles in mainspace.

Motivation: WikiProject Current events (now defunct) original scope says, "This project was established on 6 April 2006 to improve and standardize articles pertaining to current events."

Problem: WP:NOTNEWS and Misplaced Pages:Recentism do not offer a solution to this. They don't talk about this kind of articles at all, so we're left guessing.

Almost all articles about current events have and should have the current year in the title, because we're talking about that year, and that article will stay on Misplaced Pages after that year. Per this RfD, we shouldn't create redirects that have "current" or "this year" in the title, because their target changes every year.

From this, I gathered an exhaustive list of examples for variations of "current event" lists:

• Current positions (overrides "Current events")
  • of people – List of current heads of state and government (govt. positions: P1a), List of current patriarchs (religious positions: P1b), List of current A&M Records artists (artists or "everything except sports": P2a), List of current Belgian Football League managers (sports: P2b)
  • other – List of current airships in the United States (equipment, vehicles and such: P0a), List of current Major League Baseball broadcasters & List of current National Football League stadiums ("everything else" or immovable entities and such: P0x)
• Current events – I generally advocate "move to 'Portal:Current events/' " here
  • List of currently erupting volcanoes (natural: E1)
  • List of ongoing armed conflicts (human-caused: E2) (which I nominated for move, but can pull if we decide so here)
  • List of current Marvel Comics publications (running works: E3a), List of current WWE programming (programming and timetables in general: E3b) List of current National Football League consecutive playoff appearances (other running: E3x)
  • List of current Toyota vehicles in the United States
• Other (might override the above categories) – I advocate a strong keep only here.
  • Lists that could stay the same in a million years – List of current WBC International champions (R1a), List of current boxing rankings (R1b)
  • Current and past – List of current and defunct clothing and footwear shops in the United Kingdom (R2a), List of current systems for electric rail traction (R2b)
  • List of current formations of the United States Army (R3a), List of current places of worship on the Isle of Wight (R3b)

I don't necessarily agree with removing all of these articles, I am only putting all of them here for completeness. Please describe which articles you would remove from mainspace as they are right now, and propose what we should do with them. I am not opposed to moving most of these under "Portal:Current events/". When we are done, we can discuss what to do with redirects. wumbolo ^^^ 22:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with having an article with "current" in the title, these will change with time, and that is the point. For instance if we had two articles, one called "List of 2018 X's" and another called "list of Current X's" both would serve entirely different purposes. One would be for people to look at how things went down historically and one would be for informing people about the current developments, with the understanding that the latter will change frequently. I'd also like to point out that the RFC you posted does not seem to say what you think it does. It was deleted because it served little to no purpose, and should not have any bearing on this discussion. --Deathawk (talk) 00:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'd keep all of these, they seem useful, well defined, and easily referencable. Everything a good list needs to be. --Jayron32 14:28, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Special characters

Hello, is there any policy or guideline on the use of special characters in enwiki. Because these kind of edits are annoying. 1 user changes the words to special characters then another changes then back and this fight keeps going on. You can see the edit history of Jainism and other related pages. How can this fight be avoided? Capankajsmilyo (talk) 11:38, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

There is WP:DIACRITICS, MOS:DIACRITICS, and Misplaced Pages:Diacritical marks (last one is an essay). Chris857 (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages village pump
• Misplaced Pages requests for comment