Talk:Home Army - Misplaced Pages

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June 14, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
June 20, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
December 27, 2006	WikiProject peer review	Reviewed
March 19, 2008	Good article reassessment	Kept
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Archives

Archive 1 (July 2002–Sept 2006)
Archive 2 (Oct 2006–March 2008)
Archive 3 (April 2008–August 2009)

Main goal

The main goal of the AK was the final uprising (Operation Tempest), ie. training of future officers and soldiers, collecting arms. Real resistance caused cruel German vengeance, eg. 100 Polish civilians killed for one German, so the AK preferred to act ouside pre-war Poland or in the East, where ethnic Poles consisted a minority.Xx236 (talk) 10:05, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Post-war paragraph is almost so long as the WWII one, it's biased.Xx236 (talk) 10:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

One file isn't available.Xx236 (talk) 10:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Operation Vistula

Operation Vistula was carried out by the communist forces of UB, KBW and LWP, not Armia Krajowa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.75.112.142 (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent changes

I've already replied to this on my talk page, but I am resposting here, since this is where the discussion should take place:

In regard to this edit :

The source, Timothy Snyder, specifically mentions Saugumas (Lithuanian police) rather than Lithuanian Defense Force, so we go with what the source says. The second source also references Saugumas. It may very well be true that AK fought against LDF as well (in fact, I'm pretty sure they did), but we need another source for that.

Likewise, the sources given talk about "collaborators", not "civilians". The one exception is of course the Dubinki massacre, itself a retaliatory action - but that's exactly what it is, an exception (as the source clearly states) rather than a rule - whereas the killing of Polish civilians by Saugumas was pretty much routine.

Hence I am going to restore original text.VolunteerMarek 23:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Plan of section "Interaction with other groups"

Currently the section "Interaction with other groups" () has such subsections:

Interaction with the Jewish community and Jewish resistance
Interaction with the Lithuanian Nazi collaborators
Interaction with Red Army and Soviet partisans
Interaction with Ukrainian partisans and Nazi collaborators

Wouldn't it be better to shorten all those names to:

Interaction with Jews
Interaction with Lithuanians
Interaction with Soviets
Interaction with Ukrainians

Among other advantages, that would correct the, er, anomaly, of section "Interaction with the Lithuanian Nazi collaborators" starting with "Although Lithuanian and Polish resistance movements had in principle the same enemies – Nazi Germany and Soviet Union "...

Afterwards, other problems with neutrality of this section could probably be solved. --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. Also, we may want to consider changing interactions to relations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Done (). --Martynas Patasius (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Polish Righteous among the Nations

"Many members of Home Army was awarded Polish Righteous among the Nations medals after war: Władysław Bartoszewski, Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, Aleksander Kamiński, Jan Dobraczyński, Henryk Woliński, Mieczysław Fogg and others."

True, but unreferenced. Feel free to restore it, once proper inline refs are present. Ping User:Poeticbent. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the article is in a mess right now and needs work. It has been listed as wp:Good article over 5 years ago but if it isn't improved further, it risks another wp:Good article reassessment leading to even more trouble. Poeticbent talk 11:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this article is so bad. I removed some unref'ed claims, added few refs. Seems good to me. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Please reformat those collapsible sortable wikitables into regular tables and put them at the bottom of article. They cause parsing errors on my screen. Besides, per MOS:COLLAPSE boxes that toggle text between hide and show, should not conceal article content. Also, collapsible content is not always accessible on devices that do not support JavaScript or CSS. Poeticbent talk 17:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure how to reformat them; and their location seems appropriate. Perhaps you could ask at WP:VPT for someone to work on the tables? I am not a table expert, unfortunately. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Small museum in Michigan - notable?

"Another Polish Home Army Museum is located outside Poland, in Orchard Lake, Michigan, United States." I removed this unreferenced mention due to problems with WP:V and by extension, notability. See also Talk:Polish Home Army Museum, Orchard Lake, Michigan. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Home Army

I propose that this article be retitled from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army", in the interest of making the specific subject – and, by extension, Poland and its history generally – more accessible to non-Poles. Nihil novi (talk) 05:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The way it sounds now, Armia Krajowa is so undeniably Polish that it does not even need a country description in its title, but Home Army, if we were to rename it, should really be the Polish Home Army to be understood... similar to any domestic army. Conversely, Wehrmacht is a good precedence for keeping it the way it is in my view. Poeticbent talk 06:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The term "Armia Krajowa" is immediately recognizable as Polish only to a Pole (or perhaps another Slav), who can also pronounce it correctly. To a non-Pole, it is not obviously Polish, and moreover will be mispronounced, even with the pronunciation guide.

"Wehrmacht" is a different matter. That term is much better known in the world, though it too will be mispronounced by many non-Germans.

"Home Army" already redirects to "Armia Krajowa". But I could, if necessary, settle for "Polish Home Army".

German history is much better known in the West than Polish history. It's my purpose to make Polish history more widely familiar by removing needless linguistic impediments. Nihil novi (talk) 09:01, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I have thoroughly edited this article, making it grammatically, stylistically and vocabularily more readable and accurate. I wanted to move "Armia Krajowa" to the normal English-language rendering, "Home Army", but the system would not permit it. It also wouldn't permit variants such as "Polish Home Army" or "Home Army (Poland)", but it finally did accept the somewhat ungainly "Poland's Home Army".

I think "Poland's Home Army" is still easier for non-Poles to work with than "Armia Krajowa", but I would prefer the plain "Home Army", which up to now redirected to "Armia Krajowa". I would appreciate it if someone versed in arranging title moves could assist with this. Nihil novi (talk) 10:21, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you do not have the wp:consensus for what you just did. The regular channel is to request the Renaming of article and waiting for feedback. Instead, you chose a less desirable title only because it allowed you to rename the article on your own, without asking for opinion. I oppose it. My first choice was, and still is: Armia Krajowa, similar to Wehrmacht, with no italics. BTW, thanks for other improvements Nihil novi. User:Piotrus was already at it in 2005 and I'd like to see what he thinks also. Poeticbent talk 16:42, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, then I guess for the sake of consistency we should rename "Government Delegation for Poland" to "Delegatura Rządu Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej na Kraj". Nihil novi (talk) 20:18, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

No objection to Home Army, but this shouldn't have been moved to the current title. Please go to WP:RM technical moves and request a fix. For old discussions, see Talk:Armia_Krajowa/Archive_1#Requested_move. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to request a move at "WP:RM technical moves" as you suggest, but couldn't figure out how to do it. That's why I requested assistance here. Nihil novi (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I'll ask for this move to be reverted an a proper RM started. In the future, feel free to ask me to request such moves on your behalf. Cheers, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that an additional disambiguating term -- (Poland) -- is unneeded, as the base term currently redirects to this article. Xoloz (talk) 16:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Armia Krajowa → Home Army – I am starting this requested move discussion on behalf of User:Nihil novi, who asked for help with the RM procedure above. I'll quote his opening statement: "I propose that this article be retitled from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army", in the interest of making the specific subject – and, by extension, Poland and its history generally – more accessible to non-Poles." For the record, I, user Piotrus, will abstain from this RM, as I am fine with either name. An old discussion on this topic can be found at Talk:Armia_Krajowa/Archive_1#Requested_move _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:37, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Poland's Home Army → Home Army – This is the English equivalent of "Armia Krajowa". – Nihil novi (talk) 04:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

There have been many bodies which could more or less be described as a "home army". A disambiguator is needed. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:38, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I've copied and pasted the above here because I presume that it might be overlooked where it originally appeared.

I'm a little puzzled by the comment that "a disambiguator is needed", since "Home Army" linked — and continues to link — to "Armia Krajowa": which suggests, to me, that there is no ambiguity. Nihil novi (talk) 07:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose per Anthony Appleyard. "Home Army" should be a disambiguation page. And we have one Home Army (disambiguation), so it should point to Home Guard. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 08:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Home Army (Poland) is acceptable, but Home Army is not acceptable as the article title. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
  - And your view, dear anon, is based on what? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Strong Support, but with disambiguation: Home Army (Poland). English is to be preferred, and I see no reason to obfuscate the reader with Polish, when Home Army conveys what the words mean in a clearer and more WP:NATURAL form. RGloucester — ☎ 13:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Disambiguation already exists at Home Army (disambiguation). —_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:19, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not opposed to Home Army, but I don't think the disambiguation hurts, and can only actually help in this regard. Other bodies have been referred to as "home armies", as shown at the disambiguation page. However, if consensus is in favour of Home Army, I am not opposed. RGloucester — ☎ 21:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Support per RGloucester. As far as I'm aware, 'Home Army' is the most common English-language term, though a disambiguation is needed. Nick-D (talk) 11:37, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- To clarify, you support using Home Army (Poland) ? Or do you support Home Army ? -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
  - My preference is Home Army (Poland). 'Home Army' is a generic term which is applied broadly so the disambiguation is needed (for instance, I've seen it used to refer to the Australian Army forces which remained in Australia during World War II). Nick-D (talk) 11:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment. Let me clarify my view: I abstain with regards to Armia Krajowa vs Home Army, but I object to Home Army (Poland) as unnecessary. Google Book search shows that the primary context for the expression "Home Army" in English is AK. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Support as the common name in English sources. The disambiguator is not needed as Home Army already directs here anyway. — AjaxSmack 12:34, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Support for moving from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army". Over the past fifteen years or so I've seen the usage in English language works change on this. Counter-intuitively, earlier "Armia Krajowa" was actually more frequent - because it was mostly only written by specialists working in a narrow area. Over time as some elements of Polish history got more exposure in the West, non-specialists entered the conversation and they tended to use "Home Army". This caused a flip around some kind of tipping point and now my sense is that the latter is more frequent. I also don't think (oppose) that the qualification "(Poland)" is needed (i.e. oppose "Home Army (Poland")). A look into the sources and the subject shows that *this* particular Home Army is the primary topic here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: If this article does get moved, then we should also consider renaming the template (which is in bad need of reorganization, clean up and expansion).Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Support, as proponent of the move from "Armia Krajowa" to "Home Army" (which latter term currently redirects back to "Armia Krajowa"). I would tend to agree with Piotrus, AjaxSmack, and Volunteer Marek that a disambiguation such as "(Poland)" is not essential, since the usual referent of the term "Home Army" is the World War II Polish Home Army. The other military units listed in the "Home Guard" disambiguation page are "home guards" and the like. Nihil novi (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is it ok then if I also move the Armia Krajowa Template as well, for sake of consistency? Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I would.

Thank you! Nihil novi (talk) 05:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Syntax screwup post-move

G'day @Kirill Lokshin: Can you see what the problem is with this one? Since the recent move it has come up on Category:Military history articles needing attention to tagging, and I've moved the old MH peer review (had never struck one of those before...), but it's still stuck. Could you have a look? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: The issue was a broken link to the old A-Class review. I've created a redirect from the new title, so the article should no longer be flagged as being tagged incorrectly. Kirill 09:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The name of the article

Greetings. I think that the name should be moved from Home Army to The Polish Home Army while "Home Army" is too general and might lead to some confusion. It's just my suggestion. Yatzhek (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

A recent RM decided that disambiguation isn't needed. See the above discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 15:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. This was just a suggestion. Regards. Yatzhek (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Relations with Belarusians is needed

Xx236 (talk) 07:03, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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Ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainians

re: this revert with edit summary "Major operations: unsupported claim" -- In fact, a series of massacres of civil Ukrainians by AK are well documented (see uk:Категорія:Воєнні злочини Армії Крайової) and some authors do refer this to as "ethnic cleansing" (cited even in this article). However I agree with the revert of inclusion of this statement into "Major operations", since massacres of civilians were not "major operations"; they were a series of local reprisals against UPA, which went overboard, as it was happening everywhere in areas of ethnic conflicts during WWII (and this happened even in modern times eg in Yugoslavia). Staszek Lem (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

The magic phrase here in Misplaced Pages is compliance with reliable third-party sources. The article by Piotr Lipiński in Wyborcza says nothing (at all!) about ethnic cleansing. It speaks about a book written by a terminally-ill man who executed szmalcowniks as a teenager. Poeticbent talk 18:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- The magic phrase in Misplaced Pages is "due diligence". In my reply Lipinski is irrelevant. If my points were invalid, then the statement in question could have been easily restored with proper sources (eg Timothy Snyder, "To Resolve the Ukrainian Question Once and for All: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ukrainians in Poland, 1943–1947). My point is that massacres of Ukrainians by Polish partisans, covered elsewhere in Misplaced Pages, were never described as a "major operation". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:12, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
Sorry but Lipinski is very much relevant when his article he's being misquoted by a senior editor in English Misplaced Pages for reasons that escape me. – Why use his article at all, I ask? Meanwhile, article by Timothy Snyder, "To Resolve the Ukrainian Question Once and for All" is about Operation Vistula (a population transfer). I looked at Category uk:Категорія:Воєнні злочини Армії Крайової in the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages. It lists five (5) articles and one documentary film in Ukrainian (silent about UPA). The five articles about the retaliatory actions by self-defence units are also written in the Polish Misplaced Pages. They include:

10 March 1944: uk:Різня в Сагрині → pl:Zbrodnia w Sahryniu

3 March 1945: uk:Трагедія села Павлокоми → pl:Zbrodnie w Pawłokomie

11 April 1945: uk:Різня в Бахові → pl:Zbrodnia w Bachowie
uk:Різня в Березці → pl:Zbrodnia w Brzusce
uk:Різня в Сівчині → pl:Zbrodnie w Sufczynie

The retaliatory actions are well known, but they were not a proportional response to OUN-UPA policy of extermination in the name of ethnic purity. I fully agree with what you said about the revert of course. A "major operation" would imply central planning. Poeticbent talk 20:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that AK didn't kill Ukrainians or there were no anti-Ukrainian massacres. These killings are already mentioned in the section "Relations with Ukrainians". As for "To Resolve...", Snyder does describe the removal of Ukrainians from Eastern Poland through population transfers as "ethnic cleansing", but he doesn't write that Home Army was responsible for ethnic cleansing of Ukrainian population or that ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians was its major operation. From "To Resolve...":
The essay will focus mainly on the homogenizing policy of the Polish Communist regime from 1944 to 1947, but it will begin from the premise that some understanding of the cleansing of Poles by Ukrainians from 1943 to 1944 and of the Second World War in Galicia and Volhynia is necessary for an explanation and assessment of that Polish policy. (...) The cleansing of Ukrainians from southeastern Poland from 1944 to 1947 is the primary focus, but, to provide an appropriate context, the article begins with the cleansing of Poles from western Ukraine in 1943.
Snyder's article is divided into sections:
Ukrainian Partisans Murder Polish Civilians (1943–1944) / Soviet and Polish Communist Regimes Deport Poles and Ukrainians (1944–1946) / The Polish Communist Regime Disperses Ukrainians: Plans (1947) / The Issue of Polish Responsibility (1939-1999)

The reverted claim is not supported by the source (Lipinski). Even if it was, exceptional claims require exceptional (RS) sources. Hedviberit (talk) 05:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

fascist Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

Even if the OUN was fascist, it's not a right place to discuss the subject, I prefer radical nationalistic here.

The word fascist was misused by Soviet propaganda to describe non-communists.Xx236 (talk) 06:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Polish underground sometimes cooperated with UPA after the liberation. AK and UPA started the talks in 1944, after disbanding of AK WiN and UPA cooperated. Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Is Shmuel Krakowski reliable?

krakowski was a Communist political officer till 1966, so his opinion about the HA may be biased. Political officers brainwashed drafted soldiers. Certainly not Sine ira et studio.Xx236 (talk) 07:40, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

The Security Cadre

The phrase about alleged fights inside the ghetto is poorly sourced and should be removed.Xx236 (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

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AK units hunting down groups

Two editors have claimed the following is an exceptional claim:

"A number of AK detachments were actively engaged in hunting down and murdering Jews."

The claim is supported by the Bauer (1989), Connelly (2012) and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Cesarani & Kavanaugh quote an AK order to "move with arms" against "Men and women, especially Jewish women" - refugees - who are conflated with casual robbers and Soviet partisans.

I've previously asked one of the editors why it is exceptional and which sources they contend , but the editor has not yet replied. I'm asking again. François Robere (talk) 04:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Bauer, Yehuda (1989). "Jewish Resistance and Passivity in the Face of the Holocaust". Unanswered questions: Nazi Germany and the genocide of the Jews (1st American ed ed.). New York: Schocken Books. pp. 235–251. ISBN 978-0-8052-0908-2. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)
Connelly, John (2012-11-14). "The Noble and the Base: Poland and the Holocaust". The Nation. ISSN 0027-8378. Retrieved 2018-04-22.
"Jewish partisan". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved 2018-03-12.
Holocaust: Responses to the persecution and mass murder of the Jews. Holocaust: critical concepts in historical studies. Vol. 5. David Cesarani, Sarah Kavanaugh (eds.). London ; New York: Routledge. 2004. ISBN 978-0-415-27509-5 978-0-415-27510-1 978-0-415-27511-8 978-0-415-27512-5 978-0-415-27513-2 978-0-415-31871-6 978-0-415-31872-3. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help)CS1 maint: others (link)

This is a GA article and you really need to obtain consensus before making radical changes, which can be easily perceived as highly POV.

There are also some serious problems with the Cesarani & Kavanaugh source, as illustrated that they repeat this myth of Bor-Komorowski's "order" to "move with arms" etc. There was no such order. There were some comments Bor-Komorowski made in a letter to London, but nothing of the sort was ever issued. Additionally if you look at the citation for this faux-"order", you'll note the multiple ellipses, which should be a red flag that different parts of the letter are being strung together to create an impression that Bor-Komorowski said something he didn't say. Here is one source which discusses this matter . Additionally, this was also discussed by Joshua Zimmerman who notes that the origins of this myth about this non-existent order can be traced to back an article publishes decades ago by Shmuel Krakowski in which he mislabeled the letter as "an order" and misrepresented its contents. This was then, unfortunately, repeated by other sources. I don't have the Zimmerman article handy right now, but I'll try to find it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Here is another source on the non-existent "order", by a historian who acknowledges that he himself fell for this myth .Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Here is one instance where Zimmerman discussed it , although I was thinking of a different article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Also, can you please stop inserting cherry picked "quotes" all over the place along with your commentary? It's not actually encyclopedic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

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