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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by LukeSurl (talk | contribs) at 13:43, 27 April 2018 (→{{temp|ITN nom}} template: added instruction to doc). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Error reportsPlease do not post error reports for Template:In the news here. Instead, post them to WP:ERRORS. Thank you.

SuggestionsPlease do not suggest items for, or complain about items on Template:In the news here. Instead, post them to WP:ITNC. Thank you.

This talk page is for general discussions on In the news. Please note: The purpose of this page is to discuss improvements to the In the news process. It is not a place to ask general questions, report errors, or to submit news items for inclusion. Found an error in a current item? Report it on Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors (WP:ERRORS) Nominating a new item to be posted? Go to Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates (WP:ITN/C). Nominating a current item for removal? Go to Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates (WP:ITN/C). Updating the template yourself? Only administrators can do this. For instructions on updating the template, see Misplaced Pages:In the news/Admin instructions (WP:ITN/A) Recurring items? For items which occur more than once, such as awards or sporting competitions, see Misplaced Pages:In the news/Recurring items (WP:ITNR)

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Upcoming ITN/R suggestions (Apr-Jun)

Happy Easter/Fools Day! This post attempts to highlight potential nominations that could be considered and where else to continue looking for news items. The recurring items list is a good place to start. Below is a provisional list of upcoming ITN/R events over the next few months. Note that some events may be announced earlier or later than scheduled, like the result of an election or the culmination of a sport season/tournament. Feel free to update these articles in advance and nominate them on the candidates page when they occur.

• 1 April: Costa Rican general election, 2018
• 2 April: 2018 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Game
• 8 April:
  • Hungarian parliamentary election, 2018
  • 2018 Laurence Olivier Awards
  • 2018 Masters Tournament
• 11 April: Azerbaijani presidential election, 2018
• 14 April: 2018 Grand National
• 15 April: Montenegrin presidential election, 2018
• 16 April: 2018 Boston Marathon
• 22 April:
  • 2018 London Marathon
  • Paraguayan general election, 2018

Happy hunting. Fuebaey (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

RD section and posthumously created articles

Tyler Hilinski was a posthumously created article rejected by ITN/C for being posthumously created. It has to this date not been nominated for deletion. Zeke Upshaw was also created posthumously, nominated, and not posted, but it was taken to AfD during the nomination (and speedily kept). Yang Gui was posthumously created, nominated, and posted. Now Judy Kennedy was posthumously created, nominated, and looking like consensus will not support posting. There may be other recent examples I'm forgetting.

The discrepancy in reactions from editors on these noms shows that we need some clear standards here for how to handle posthumously created articles nominated for RD. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Please supply links to each of the discussions to enable us to assess the situation more accurately. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:42, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Certainly. Tyler Hilinski, Zeke Upshaw (the # messes stuff up so you'll have to CTRL+F. The Yang Gui and Judy Kennedy noms haven't been archived yet. The search helped me find Jill Messick, a posthumously created article that was posted. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:57, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

P.S. The hash (pound) doesn't normally screw things up, just don't put a space after it and the name of the section heading. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:58, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

The "" in the closed ITNC URLs cause a rendering issue. You can use a tool like this to encode characters that are problematic to bypass the issue.—Bagumba (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

There’s also David Buckel, which I nominated about the same time as Judy Kennedy and which was posted with no opposition. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:00, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I think we're trying to deal with a non-problem here. Just because a couple of nominations were rejected for one reason or another, including concerns over notability, it doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Clearly admins could have assessed that the rejection of completely sound RDs on the grounds that they were posthumously created articles to be incorrect and posted otherwise, but they didn't, and so there's literally no problem here. Naturally, and as ever, if we don't like posting the way post RDs (which I think has been a 100% wholesale success, no need to thank me etc etc) then we can launch an RFC to debate it. These edge cases are worthy of discussion on their merit. Nothing more. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:07, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The key is, if the article was created in the wake of the death of a person, we need to review the notability of the person to make sure that we're not violating things like BLP1E. Existing articles will be less of a problem since we generally presume that they have eyes on them, but we should still be able to raise concern if a RD comes along and there's a clear case of BLP1E evident there. --Masem (t) 00:36, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

• In the case of Judy Kennedy though, BLP1E wasn’t an issue - the objections seemed to be that she was a local politician and the sources were local. I don’t think RD is an appropriate venue for notability discussions. The article should taken to AfD instead. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:47, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

• The problem is that if we tag it for deletion while it it is a ITNC, that immediately disqualifies it for ITNC. If editors believe notability is an issue, and the ITNC closes with no support to post because of notability issues, then an AFD (or other appropriate action like merging) should then ensue, but not before it closes. --Masem (t) 01:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

• There is no "problem". All the processes are working fine. If someone AFDs a new article, that's nothing to with ITNC but it'll disqualify it in the short term. So what? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

• I think its in the realm of WP:POINT to nominate a proposed ITNC RD to AFD, unless it is clear that the ITNC discussion agrees that the subject was non-notable. By putting a current ITNC RD topic to AFD, I've imposed my opinion (which may be wrong) in a means that blocks it from being posted to ITNC. It's a decision on the postability of an RD by a fiat, which shouldn't happen. I'd rather see the case that if there's no clear consensus that an RD topic is appropriate for a standalone but otherwise all other ITN boxes are checked, that we allow the normal ITNC process to go through, and only after the ITNC is closed (and if the topic was posted, after it falls off the page), a more formal AFD process can start. There is separately that someone who is not at all involved in ITNC may start an AFD, and we'd have a problem of how those processes interact but its not the same issue as if I were doing the AFD, since I'd be involved in ITNC that makes it POINTy. --Masem (t) 13:12, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

• It is not POINTy to AfD an article where WP:BEFORE was performed and there is due reason to believe it is not notable. It would be POINTy to AfD an article just to prevent it from being posted on ITN. As LaserLegs suggested below: "If you routinely refer articles to AFD that survive the process, there are tools for dealing with that."—Bagumba (talk) 11:16, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• This is a non-issue. While I agree with the notion that editors should give newly-created articles extra scrutiny before commenting on the thread, extra scrutiny requires no comment. The "Oppose because this was just created" shows zero scrutiny, and is the opposite of what we should be doing. Assess the article text and the sources, and if it checks out and meets the requirements for an article at Misplaced Pages, that requires no extra commentary other than to support the article. Say "I checked the text and the sources, and this looks good to go..." It's the unthinking, unanalyzed vote which presumes that every newly created article should be instantly deleted, or that it should be instantly rejected out of hand, without looking at it, which is a real problem. Honestly, I check all article text to the same level of scrutiny; there's no harm in vetting old articles just as well. The attitude that Misplaced Pages should reject the creation of new articles based on when a person died in relation to when the article was created is beyond perplexing, and ultimatly antithetical to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, which is to include verifiable information. The presumption that everyone who is notable already has an article about them, and that we have never missed a notable living person, is preposterous. --Jayron32 11:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with The Rambling Man and Jayron32. Any issues with an article are independent of the article's date of creation. From the above examples, it appears that the current policy is to put the nomination on hold if a serious AfD is formally initiated against the article, and I doubt anyone has a problem with that. (The logical consequence of the current rules is that RD oppose !votes based on notability are invalid, so such opposers should launch an AfD instead, as noted above.) And, just to re-iterate what Jayron said, imposing a blanket ban on RD-postings of posthumously-created articles is an incorrect solution to a problem that doesn't even exist. Davey2116 (talk) 00:49, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment if you think an RD candidate fails WP:N nominate it for WP:AFD else STFU. If you routinely refer articles to AFD that survive the process, there are tools for dealing with that. #twocents --LaserLegs (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • So expressing opposition to current standing consensus warrants a "STFU". Glad to see civility is alive and well. </sarcasm>--WaltCip (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• Editor's should do their homework Shaik Muzakkar (talk) 22:09, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

• This is an issue There has been fearmongering that an article created after a death is not notable, where WP:BEFORE appears to have been missed, as the article could have been verified to meet GNG. See the Tyler Hilinski nomination: "the fact that it was only created on the subject's death suggests that he may not have been particularly notable." The article at time of nomination has multiple sources of independent, significant coverage not including his death. Refer also to the Zeke Upshaw nomination: "I don't really have any knowledge of notability for US sports, but this is another example of a biography that was only created after the subject died." and "would have not qualified for an article under either GNG or NSPORTS prior to death." Again,the version at time of nomination had multiple sources of independent, significant coverage outside of the death. See its subsequent AfD nominated with rationale of "Was created after death, and posted at ITN (where it was rejected - ). Appears to fail WP:NBASKETBALL." The AfD was closed as "Snow Keep".—Bagumba (talk) 10:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

• I'm certainly a little reluctant to support RDs if the article didn't exist before the death. That suggests a potentially non-notable figure and an article which might not have been written to cover the person's whole life. It also muddies the water regarding what RD is for - I see it as pointing at articles that serve as obituaries, not a news story about the death (which is what blurbs are for). A posthumous article is a warning sign rather than a disqualification; however putting in a rule might discourage some of the rushed low-quality nominations we get, and we wouldn't be missing any high profile ones. Tbh I think there are too many RDs anyway, to the point that blurb-worthy news gets overlooked at ITN/C. Modest Genius 11:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • WP:RECENT applies to all things, from BLPs to plane crashes and prison riots. The easiest factor to consider is "is it in the news", after that, bias about importance or notability or whatever becomes irrelevant. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:06, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
  • All RDs, recently created or not, need to be of "sufficient quality" (WP:ITNRD). There are "rushed, low-quality nominations" with long-standing articles as well. The recent ongoing nomination of Verne Troyer is being rejected because it's career section is insufficient. Let's not obfuscate things by implying that recently-created articles are inherently of lower quality for RD. I do hope that reviewers of long-standing articles also perform due diligence to ensure it is not a non-notable article that had gone undetected for years, but is buoyed solely by recent death coverage. If that is already the practice, then there should be nothing inherently special about an article being recently created. Otherwise, methinks long-standing articles are being given a free pass when voting.—Bagumba (talk) 09:25, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
• Promising that the recent discussion and post of Agnès-Marie Valois occurred without one mention that the article was created after her death.—Bagumba (talk) 09:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
  • As long as a newly-created article shows that this was clearly a person we'd have an article on if they didn't die, and we simply never got to creating it (such as Valois as a well-decorated heroine from the wars), it shouldn't be an issue and probably why it wasn't brought up there. Its when the death is published that elevates the person that we'd normally not have an article about that we'd need to make sure that we're not violating BLP1E. --Masem (t) 13:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
    • It's fine to perform the ITN equivalent of WP:BEFORE and rule out BLP1E concerns. What should be discouraged is merely pointing out that an article is new, insinuating that there is an inherent problem. Discuss content or notability concerns directly; bringing up its age on its own smacks of innuendo. And yes, the mention of age is a concern, as shown by the "Snow Keep" of the Zeke Upshaw AfD. Are you suggesting it was a one-off?—Bagumba (talk) 11:28, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Articles not being posted

The article Agnès-Marie Valois (dead 19 April) has not been posted to RD even if all three comments are support. I am afraid if now is going to get stale, which is a bit discouraging since I frankly wrote the whole article to get it on the front page. What is the procedure for what gets posted or not? Iselilja (talk) 08:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

It's now posted. Please understand that administrators are volunteers just like you; please be patient. 331dot (talk) 08:07, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I understand about beeing volunteers. My concern was that patience might lead to article becoming stale which I saw had just happened to another nomination which was considered "stale" after 2 days, even with three "supports" and none opposes. There seems to be an "overflow" of RD nominations currently, so I wonder if administrators then simply discard the less notable/interesting articles, and go with Avicii etc. ? That would be normal and could be sensible, but may go a bit against the "only criteria is article quality" rule which was the assumption I nominated the article on. Iselilja (talk) 09:04, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

If an RD nominated article is sufficiently improved and there is agreement that it has been, it should be posted. One RD is not more important than another. It wasn't stale because the oldest RD listing was from the 17th. ITNC is followed by a few, but not a great number of, administrators. I've only been one for a little less than a month, so there is two more eyes on it than there was. 331dot (talk) 09:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Choi Eun-hee, which received unanimous support after major improvements by Lenoresm, was ignored by admins. It remained "ready" for days while later nominations were being posted, and was eventually closed as stale. -Zanhe (talk) 18:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

That's how it goes sometimes. There's been a very steady and rapid queue of RD noms lately. Not everything can be posted, and administrators can't be everywhere at once.--WaltCip (talk) 21:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

• I know why it occurs and that Misplaced Pages is an entirely voluntary endeavour by all, but I'll also say that is is extremely frustrating when it happens. You get into the situation where you aren't sure if you should be bumping your nom or whether this is bad etiquette. It also makes you feel like actual content creation is less prized than the slinging of arguments around on ITNC, when the former is much more valuable to the encylopedia. --LukeSurl 08:55, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

  Just run for admin then, that way you can fix these problems. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Tagging nomination section headers

This is going to appear nitpicky, but when a nom is posted or closed or whatever it's common to mark it . The thing is, the square brackets are reserved in the MW syntax, and it makes linking to things like this: "en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates/March_2018#_Kabul_suicide_bombing" a bit of a hassle. So either I'm doing it wrong, in which case could someone please help me, or can we use parenthesis instead (closed) (pulled) (posted) etc?

--LaserLegs (talk) 14:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, this was also brought near the top of #RD section and posthumously created articles thread above. The brackets would otherwise need to be encoded to get the URL to work, so your suggestion might be a good workaround.—Bagumba (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

I will take that under advisement and only use parentheses going forward. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

You can use .5Band .5D to encode square brackets respectively. Have used it before. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Is in the news broken?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ITN appears to be failing to well post much at all. At the time of writing this the last Item was added 4 days ago and the item before that was added 5 days ago. This shows that there is no hard and fast criteria, just a lot of arguing and uncertainty as what to post resulting in little being posted. This is not helped by one item being pulled due to its uncertainty in recent days. There must be a better way for ITN to operate as opposed to nominate and nothing happens because of a lack of clear rules and guidance on what is and is not able to go ITN. Notability and significance are usually trotted out by opposers, but the news cares little about these things. ITN should simply be 1. Is the event in the news? 2. Is the event linked to a Wikipeidia article? 3. Is the article up to the standard needed to merit posting? Anything else is just opinion and has broken the ITN process. WTKitty (talk) 13:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

ITN has posted at this pace since it was introduced, and has always been a subjective content area. If you think it's broken now, then it was never working. One way you could help increase postings is to update articles that are significant but don't yet have adequate article quality. Personally, I'm satisfied with the current process. Mamyles (talk) 13:54, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

ITN has never been intended to have "hard and fast criteria". ITN is not a news ticker or source of news, it is a way to motivate the improvement of articles. Misplaced Pages is a project to build an encyclopedia, not report the news. If you want to work on and post news stories, you should contribute to Wikinews. Every so often I see this sort of comment, often from someone who is disappointed their nomination didn't make it(I don't know if that is the case here or not). Having lots of rules about what should be posted is just instruction creep and goes against the spirit of Misplaced Pages, where things are decided by consensus.

As noted by Mamyles, we can only consider posting what is nominated. In most cases we have absolutely no control over the timing of news stories. If you are dissatisfied with what is posted, you need to become more heavily involved with ITNC(which I would welcome), making nominations and improving articles for posting. 331dot (talk) 13:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

How can it be adequate to have little updating of ITN for days and in some cases weeks, it turns it from being ITN to I like this from the news. A lot of "voting" goes on as well and some nominations are flooded with I like/dislike comments. This is not fit for purpose and if this has been the way it has been from the start then it has been broken from the start. How can it be that a horse race which occurs every year gets a mention but an equivalent running race does not. Where is the consistency? WTKitty (talk) 13:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

None of the comments are on whether an editor likes or does not like the news. All of the comments focus on whether the article has adequate updates/article quality, and whether it's significant enough to post, using the criteria located at WP:ITN. Mamyles (talk) 14:04, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

often from someone who is disappointed their nomination didn't make it

see Misplaced Pages:In_the_news/Candidates#Third_child_of_the_Duke_and_Duchess_of_Cambridge Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:03, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Do you mind not going personal and sticking to the content here. The motives being doled out here are frankly offensive, and go against trying to improve wikiepdia. I would like the above to be withdrawn as its of no relevance. WTKitty (talk) 14:09, 23 April 2018 (UTC) That is how it should be but looking through an awful lot of the nominatiosn this does not appear to be what is happening. A contributor may dress up comments to look like they are substance but simply adding Per user X or this is not notable, does little to have an actual discussion. WTKitty (talk) 14:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

@WTKitty: We also have WP:ITNR, the recurring events list, where notability is presumed for posting(though it is not a guarantee of posting as article quality still is considered). The "horse race" you speak of is on that list. Various running races are there as well, if you feel an important one is missing, you are welcome to nominate it for inclusion in the list. As this is a volunteer project, we can only include what users choose to include. 331dot (talk) 14:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the pointing in that direction I shall have a good look at the list. WTKitty (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I would add that I don't think it was a personal attack to point out you have a nomination pending. 331dot (talk) 14:16, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

What purpose does it serve though other than to colour the discussion? I stand by my earleir comment that it is a personal attack. It has no bearing on the discussion ad is a comment on me and me alone. WTKitty (talk) 14:17, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

What seems to be little justified is that, after your nom failed, you immediately took to the ITN talkpage to attack the entire decision process on ITN/C. The consensus went against you. That you are unable to accept it is not a fault of the process.--WaltCip (talk) 14:24, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• ITN posts sports and death mostly, but only if the WP:MINIMUMDEATHS is reached. For example, a few days ago a woman was blown out of a 737 at 30,000 feet and it was deemed "not newsworthy" despite the subsequent air worthiness directive and mandatory inspections of all CFM 56 engines. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Betteridge's Law strikes again. It does feel like the rate of new blurbs has been lower than usual over the last month or two, but that doesn't mean the entire section is broken. Encyclopaedic significance has always been a part of ITN assessment. Tbh I suspect many nominations don't get the attention they deserve because they're lost in a sea of RD nominations. Nevertheless, the best way to improve ITN is to nominate high-quality stories, help assess existing ones at ITN/C, and improve articles whose nominations are being held up by problems (which is a bigger problem than editor bias). Wholesale changes to the section's purpose are neither necessary nor desirable. Modest Genius 14:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I've sometimes wondered if RD noms should be a separate page(I might have brought that up before) given the (good) number of RD noms we see now. 331dot (talk) 15:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• ITN isn't broken just because the story you wanted to see posted wasn't posted. Sometimes I need to remind myself of that. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Can we all stop with this sour grapes garbage please it is unhelpful to collaborating on Wikipeidia and it is a load of crap. WTKitty (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

You don't have sour grapes, okay. I believe you. That said, would you have brought this up if your nomination had been posted? 331dot (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I would have done. WTKitty (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not even sure what that was, the royal baby? Can you expand? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

@LaserLegs: raises a good point, how can a news story such as the one described not be in the news, how often does a plane engine explode in mid air and cause every engine of that type to be re-tested. Having a minimum death requirement is absurd it creates an unnecessary arbitrariness. WTKitty (talk) 17:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

We don't have a minimum death requirement, thus why that link is red. Though, it is true that for disasters the number of deaths correlates with perceived significance. Mamyles (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

(ec) The nomination was for an aircraft accident with a single death and fell out of the news quickly. Engine testing and all that stuff came later. If someone wants to nominate engine testing as a blurb, they are free to. 331dot (talk) 18:12, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

In answer to the original question: no. Unless you expected ITN to be a news ticker, in which case you could contribute to WikiNews (!) or that new project that Jimbo has put his Wiki-weight behind but I can't remember the name of (to avoid fake news etc)... Either way, we only post items which have been nominated with a minimum threshold of quality and a nominal level of consensus. Feel free to join in and fix any of those three issues, whichever way you see fit. Simply complaining about it will make precisely zero difference. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Wikinews is a free content news source -- I'm not sure how that is in any way comparable to ITN which relies on WP:RS. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:08, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

No, that's obvious. Do you have anything else? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Well you suggested that a faster turnaround at ITN would be a "news ticker" and that such a project exists in "Wikinews". I'm just trying to understand why you're referring editors to a project whose goals are not compatible with Misplaced Pages. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:22, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Because not all editors are compatible with Misplaced Pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

The only way issues are raised and exposed to be broken is by complaining about them. If no one knows an issue exists how can it be fixed? Shooting the messenger is a way of trying to stop healthy criticism and healthy discussion over issues. Not everyone is able to magically run in and fix things. Not everything is an easy fix. Simply going fix it yourself is absurd. This is not dictatorship. This is a consensus built platform. I suggest some of that consensus building is continued. A lot of discussion has been generated and that can only be a good thing especially when it is as constructive as the majority of this discussion has been. I also think that TRM needs to be inclusive of editors and not dismiss others who they find problematic but within the rules and spirit of Wikipeidia as not compatible with Misplaced Pages. WTKitty (talk) 07:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• @WTKitty: everyone knows ITN is broken. However there's no consensus on how to change it, which means we're stuck with the status quo. Banedon (talk) 22:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Everything on Misplaced Pages can likely be improved, and nothing is perfect for all people, but that doesn't mean it is "broken". 331dot (talk) 23:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

That depends on one's individual definition of "broken", which I'm not very interested in discussing. Banedon (talk) 23:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

It may though be the most constructive discussion which could be had as it will expose a range of view points and issues people have with how this is functioning. More in-depth and civilised discussion is nothing but helpful and productive. WTKitty (talk) 07:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. If you want to have a discussion over the definition of "broken", that really is up to the individual person to define. If for example I define "broken" as "imperfect" while you define it as "does not serve the purposes of Misplaced Pages", then the entire discussion would be different. If you want to discuss what to do with ITN, the problem is we've had lots of those discussions in the past. Everything that could be said has already been said, viewpoints are entrenched, and few people who dislike the status quo still read ITNC, so most attempts at change simply gets shouted down. Accordingly I see further discussion as pretty futile. You are welcome to try, and if it comes to a full-fledged RfC for ITN reform I'll participate, but I'm not very keen to rehash old arguments. Sorry for being cynical. Banedon (talk) 07:34, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• ITN is clearly unproductive compared to the other main page sections because it only seems to produce a new blurb about every three days. FA gives readers a new article every day while OTD usually does 5 each day and DYK is currently cranking out about 16 every day. So, DYK is about 48 times more productive than ITN!

Consider, for example, the oldest item at ITN – 2018 Grand National. That's about an event 12 days ago and wasn't especially popular even then as it peaked at 25K views. Now it's getting just getting about 2K views per day. That's almost nothing when compared to topics which are actually in the news. The royal baby is getting comparatively massive readership for a variety of articles which are among the most popular on Misplaced Pages. Yesterday, the views were:

229,110 – Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge

172,131 – Prince William, Duke of Cambridge

131,275 – Prince George of Cambridge

104,714 – Princess Charlotte of Cambridge

92,185 – Succession to the British throne

68,409 – Third child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge

ITN snubbed the royal baby and the reasons had little to do with quality but were instead mostly a value judgement that the baby was not important. The world and our readership clearly disagrees. They think that the baby is more important than the horse race and so ITN is getting this wrong. Broken.

Andrew D. (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

ITN is not and should not be based on what gets the most hits/page views. If that's the case, the ITN box could just be an automatically generated list of high viewership pages with no human involvement or judgement. If those pages are already getting high viewership, they don't need our help to increase it, clearly people are finding them on their own. ITN is not just about posting widely publicized events, but "To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them"(WP:ITN). Posting highly viewed article only would essentially do away with that aspect. We already make value judgements as to what should be included in Misplaced Pages in general, based on what is notable, or, more specifically, what Misplaced Pages editors consider to be notable. ITN is no different and should not be different. We make encyclopedic, editorial judgements as to what to include. This baby is indeed generally inconsequential(extremely unlikely they will be head of state, unlike George who we did post) and is just tabloid news along with Kim Kardashian's hair or Beyonce's kids.

And if postings are not moving fast enough for you, you are free to help increase the pace by making nominations. We can only consider what is nominated. 331dot (talk) 08:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

And, as usual, see Wikinews or WikiTRIBUNE if you want your news served up nice and fresh! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:49, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• 331dot and TRM are pillars of the current ITN establishment and so naturally like the current system in which postings are based on their personal opinion of what is or isn't important. Me, I'm not wasting my time on a who-shouts-loudest process which is so clearly broken and unproductive. Andrew D. (talk) 09:22, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• And you are a perpetual advocate of posting whatever's popular which is most often far from encyclopedic. Me, I'm not wasting my time on a who-gets-the-most-page-hits approach which is so clearly non-encyclopedic. See Misplaced Pages:Top 25 Report for the "all-you-need-to-know" guide as to why we most definitely should not adopt Davidson's approach.... Wrestlemania!!!!! 34!!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 09:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• I am not a part of any "establishment" (and please address comments about me to me when I am here participating). ITN is not about "who shouts loudest" and is not based on my personal opinion. This is not "331dot's ITN" though I am flattered you hold me in such high importance here. It is based on consensus(like 99% of Misplaced Pages content and policies). Thank you for driving by and offering your opinion of what is done here, without participating. I only agree more that it is those who haven't gotten things posted who are the ones who complain about the system. 331dot (talk) 09:32, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• Also not part of any establishment. No sour grapes here either. I nominated the Southwest Airlines Flight 1380 article, which did no gain consensus for posting. Oh well, no big deal. Getting an ITN is nice, but if it doesn't get posted wait for another story to come along and nominate that, hopefully with a different outcome. The nomination meant that it got more eyes on it and was improved, so Misplaced Pages still gained. Mjroots (talk) 12:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

ITN/C stats

Here's some more stats – the number of edits made to ITN/C, listing the top 20. Andrew D. (talk) 09:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Edits
Average time between edits (days)

Incredible. Don't you think your time would have been better spent in improving an article? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Andrew Davidson And maybe if you were on this list, ITN would better reflect what you feel it should be. But you prefer to drive by, complain, then sit on your hands. If you don't like who participates, then you need to participate. There isn't really another remedy. 331dot (talk)

OK this has devolved in to mudslinging and as the person who initiated this I think now is the time for everyone to walk away from this discussion. This has only raised one question above others. What is the point of ITN? When that question is answered then maybe the workings can be worked out. As such I have begun a fresh discussion on this and strted an open RfC. I do hope civility is retained throughout by everyone. WTKitty (talk) 10:30, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• Interesting stats. But I've definitely been here longer than two years. --LukeSurl 10:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Likewise. For example I made this edit in December 2014 and it was clearly not my first. The Editor Interation Tool reports that I have 1161 edits to ITNC and TRM has 3995 but as it indicates that I editied the page first think that this is also using a subset of all the edits. Thryduulf (talk) 12:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what this is meant to prove. TRM has been the most frequent contributor to ITN, yes. But he has also put several featured articles into mainspace. Is the argument being made that he's spending too much time on ITN instead of mainspace? Wouldn't this instead be a sign of diligence in participation?--WaltCip (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

In fairness I'm guessing that Andrew only went two years back in compiling the statistics. I've also been here much longer. 331dot (talk) 13:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I think I'm also the most frequent contributor to WP:ERRORS. And I have the most featured lists than anyone in history. And every single one of the Boat Race race articles is a minimum of GA. So basically I rock and deserve a few barnstars. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• Cool statbox. Does it come with barnstars? -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:30, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

⇒ Fractious and inconclusive discussion. Suggest close. – Sca (talk) 13:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

↑↑↑ applies to pretty much every discussion on Misplaced Pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Even if so, that's not a reason to prolong pointless palaver. Sca (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Ughh

While trying to !vote on the Toronto incident, I got a triple, perhaps even quadruple edit conflict, and totally screwed things up and butchered the entire page. I think I managed to duplicate the entire page except today’s noms. Ughh.. I think I’ve cleaned everything up, but more may be needed. Sorry! 66.31.81.200 (talk) 21:12, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

!Voting is not what this page needs. Thank you for the clean up though. WTKitty (talk) 22:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

(brackets]

Are we using (parentheses) or for the Posted/Closed in the subheadings now?  Nixinova   T   C   07:20, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

It appears so. Refer to #Tagging nomination section headers for background.—Bagumba (talk) 07:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

We're now using (brackets) not  ;) It looks a bit odd, but that's probably just a case of getting used to it. Modest Genius 12:00, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Yet another American vs. British English nuance.—Bagumba (talk) 12:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

We're using whatever random enclosure devices we want. I may pull out some curly brackets or french double-angle-brackets some day, just for the variety... --Jayron32 18:01, 26 April 2018 (UTC)}}

RfC about scope, purpose, and parameters of ITN

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What are the parameters, purpose, and scope of in the news? and what do users want in the news to be?

This discussion is intended to be a completely open discussion where there are no "starting points". It is for everyone to give a view of what they see for In The nNews. Please do not fall back and state "this already known" or "this is obvious" or "this has already been decided" or similar that will not help with the discussions and has the potential to be seen as hostile and unconstructive.

There are no right or wrong answers here and everything from complete reworking, to retaining the status quo, to scrapping ITN, are welcome to be discussed. These are mere suggestions and are not a list of must be discussed issues.

Please remain civil at all times.

WTKitty (talk) 10:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Survey

Threaded discussion

Discussion on having a discussion

• I had thought Requests for Comment are meant for specific proposals only, not a request for general discussion. 331dot (talk) 10:30, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, Misplaced Pages:Village pump might be more suitable.—Bagumba (talk) 10:33, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
    • How else does one initiate a general comment on an issue then. An RfC has been suggested to be initiated by two members @Banedon: here and @The Rambling Man: here. So lets have an RfC and discuss this to its foundations and work from there. Moving the venue seems pointless as this is the topic which is being discussed so why have it anywhere else? WTKitty (talk) 10:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
      • We all pretty much know how we feel about ITN, either through recent comments or through past similar discussions. If you have a specific proposal, please offer it. My issue is not the venue but the general nature of this. Most issues real or perceived can be addressed by participation, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 331dot (talk) 10:54, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

• Here is not the place for it. Go to Misplaced Pages:Village pump as others have suggested.--WaltCip (talk) 11:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Incidentally, casually hinting "scrapping ITN" as a possible solution is borderline disruptive.--WaltCip (talk) 11:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
• I do not doubt that you are sincere. However, the feedback that you have been given here—that RfCs are more effective when there is a specific proposal—is also consistent with my experience (and even then they are sometimes not productive). See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief for the good and bad examples. I still maintain that Village Pump is best if your goal is open-ended brainstorming s opposed to a specific proposal. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 11:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Close

Since the nominator has been indefinitely blocked for being an abusive sockpuppet, I suggest this "RFC" be closed and we waste no more time on it. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:25, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

22 April

Would someone fix the template I inserted on 22 April. I don't understand what went wrong. Iselilja (talk) 17:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

@Iselilja: -  Done. Stormy clouds (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks so much. Iselilja (talk) 17:59, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

This needs to be simplified

I spend two minutes trying to figure out how to nominate 2018 inter-Korean summit and gave up. Maybe someone else can do it. ITN procedure is way too cumbersome. I am sure I could figure it out if I felt like spending 5-10m on this, but I don't feel like doing so. ITN nominations seem much more arcane than DYKs, or at the very least, the how-to info is much better hidden/obscured. PS. Just to be clear. I read the yellow box instructions on the Candiate page and it is the most unhelpful how-to I've seen in a long time. It needs a major rewrite, ideally resulting in a simple 'click here, fill in this single form, click save, you are done' action. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:33, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Nominated it for you. If you nominate something else in the future, don't bother with looking at the yellow box instructions; just directly edit the page and use the template as given here: . Press the show button, copy/paste the template, and edit it as necessary. Banedon (talk) 04:49, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Nominations at ITN are about ten times easier than the ridiculous template, prep, queue, main page nonsense of DYK. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

{{ITN nom}} template

The template {{ITN nom}} is a "blue tag" that is posted at the top of articles informing that the article in question is nominated at ITNC. I do not think it is appropriate to have such a notice in article space. Article space notices are for readers, informing them of potential issues with the article. Being nominated for ITNC is not a reader concern. What is appropriate for editor notices (which this is) is Talk space, and for that the alternative {{ITN note}} exists.

I intend to nominate {{ITN nom}} for deletion, probably on Monday. I thought it prudent to post here first. I'll refrain from nominating if there's consensus against doing that from the ITN crew. --LukeSurl 09:12, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I think the tag is less an advertisement for ITNC than an indication the article needs improvement, which is the ultimate goal of ITN(to get articles improved). That said, we also could always use new contributors to ITNC and such a tag is a way to get readers aware of us here. Every reader is a potential editor. However, I will not stand in the way of you taking this good faith action in case the community feels differently. 331dot (talk) 09:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

There are dozens of tags which can be used to indicate an article needs improvement, which are much more useful to the reader. Not all of the reasons why an ITN/C may fail are not relevant to a reader (i.e. if we decide an event isn't important enough or in the news enough that is irrelevant to the reader already on the article). Reasons for not posting which are about article quality should be tagged inline or with yellow and orange section/article tags - this is both useful for the ITNC discussion and for the reader. We already have the {{Current}} family of blue tags to indicate that article content may not be up to date with a recent or ongoing event. In practice {{ITN nom}} only indicates an ITNC discussion is happening, it does not indicate reader-relevant issues have been found or give any specific, actionable, information what these could be. In short, {{ITN nom}} offers nothing to the reader, and may even be used in lieu of informative tags, thus being a disservice to the reader. --LukeSurl

I thought that tag was meant to go in talk space, not main. --LaserLegs (talk) 12:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

I do see all the other uses are in the talk page, basically as a talk page post. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:04, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

If we can agree that this is a talk-page-only template then everything's fine and dandy. --LukeSurl 13:12, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I've seen it placed in article space occasionally but always assumed that was an error and that it was meant for the talk page. Discusssion at Template_talk:ITN_nom#Use in article space? confirms this.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

• I created the template and although I initially had thought to use it on the article, after discussion with other editors it was decided that it should only be used on the talk page. As far as I am aware that has been where it has almost always been placed. If it is applied to the article then it should be moved to the talk page per longstanding consensus and usage. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
• I've added instruction not to use in article space to the template's documentation. I guess that resolves this, thanks everyone. -LukeSurl 13:43, 27 April 2018 (UTC)