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E-960

E-960 needs to be more careful when reverting. --NeilN 13:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Request concerning E-960 User who is submitting this request for enforcement Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC) User against whom enforcement is requested E-960 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log Sanction or remedy to be enforced WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (+original author as in ARBPIA) Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it 0408 11 may + 0420 11 may revert1 1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may revert2. 1rr on revert1 1814 11 may revert3 (+ original author clause) 1rr on revert1,2. 0702 12 may revert4. This one of an ip that does not count to 1rr, but does show pattern and is gaming of 3rr - 4th revert in 27 hours 1354 12 may + 1249 12 may revert5, again of ip. This one is a 3rr vio in relation to revert2,3,4. 1701 12 may. revert6. 1rr in relation to revert2,3. 3rr - 5 reverts in 24 hr window in relation to reverts2,3,4,5. Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any 228 8 May will voluntarily refrain from editing the article for 72 hours. If disruptive tagging is an issue, another request should be made, with evidence that will allow admins unfamiliar with the sources to understand the issue If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts) notified. Also previosuly discussed here on 7 May 2018. Additional comments by editor filing complaint I chose to focus on the narrow aspect of 1rr/3rr given this is easy to demonstrate and previous discussion here. User returned to article 1.5 hours after the 72 hours were up and proceeded to revert multiple times. RE E-960's comments below: I did not add any tags or comments removing text (in relation to the 6 reverts reported) - so it is unclear to me I've been gaming the system here. I will note that E-960's has been adding dubiously sourced information (based on the Facebook posts of a Polish ambassador) - however that is a content issue (there is a RfC presently running on the article talk-page regarding the use of the ambassador's observations on research methodology). It seems that E-960 in addressing the diff list was referring, in some comments, to the previous edit - not to their own. 1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may - reported as one-consecutive edit (FR did make an edit and self-revert it in the middle - in 1726-7- however this was ignored for reporting purposes - lumping 1730 with the consecutive edits of 1717 and 1725). Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 - E-960 reverted changes by Volunteer Marek - consecutive diffs in 1757-1809 - restoring the changed image caption and quote that VM removed - . E-960 added this information in 1717-1730 - so very shortly before VM's removal of the new information. I would not have filed AE over a single quote and image caption - but it is a clear revert. Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018 - Icewhiz did not place the tag. The tag was placed by 198.84.253.202 at Revision as of 12:47, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should take care in attributing actions to users. I will note that I agree with 198.84.253.202 - the article does indeed overemphasize Polish views, while ignoring wider Holocaust and World War II history (for instance, it would seem that Jewish views (which have addressed this topic at length, which are long standing, are almost lacking all together in terms of opinions/assessment of the Polish role in the Holocaust - there is also an overemphasis in the use of Polish sources - which is a problem given that NOENG has us preferring English when available at the same quality and of BALASP as the sources selected do not reflect the wider world-wide scholarly consensus) - however, I did not place the tag. Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should retract his accusations of vandalism against the 198.84.253.202. This text is not agreed upon. While most editors agree, on the talk-page, that Gazeta Wyborcza is a WP:RS - many editors have failed to see the relevance of a statement which repeats the previous statement and says nothing new. If at all, WP:ONUS is on E-960 to include not on 198.84.253.202 to exclude. E-960 reverted, in the 6 reverts, at least 4 different users - François Robere, Icewhiz, 198.84.253.202, and Volunteer Marek. Some of his edits may be justifiable in and of themselves. And perhaps I was nit-picky in counting reverts in one case - however the aggregate of 6 reverts in 37 hours on a 1rr article is not how a 1RR article should be edited.Icewhiz (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested notified Discussion concerning E-960 Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks. Statement by E-960 This report filed by Icewhiz is nothing short of a dishonest MANIPULATION, and I would request that sanctions are placed on Icewhiz for filing a false report against another editor. If you notice (and go through the actual sequence of the edits ) you will see that these are reverts of DISRUPTIVE edits done by Icewhiz, François Robere and IP 198.84.253.202 including placing of more shame TAGS into the article and removing text using the <!-- Hidden text --> code. Exampels: Revision as of 17:17, 11 May 2018 - reverted edit by François Robere who placed yet another shame TAG into the article Revision as of 17:21, 11 May 2018 - added a quotation earlier into the reference source citation and for clean up removed Polish word in parenthesis, how is that a violation of any kind Revision as of 17:27, 11 May 2018 - reverted my own edit, due to all the disruptive changes made by François Robere who himself reverted his own edits earlier, how is that a violation of any kind Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 - restored the quotation that was added in the reference citation, since François Robere was making more changes to article and Volunteer Marek was reverting all the disruptive changes, and accidentally removed an unrelated edit I made Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018, 12 May 2018 - reverted another shame TAG placed by Icewhiz in the article Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 - reverted a vandalism edit by IP 198.84.253.202 who place the <!-- Hidden text --> code to hid the text that was agree on in on the Talk Page , pls notice the Edit Summary caption made by another editor (→‎The Holocaust: Per talk), and this is where earlier IP 198.84.253.202 tried to remove the text outright from the article ... after being revered he decided to use the <!-- Hidden text --> code to blank the text. This type of behavior by Icewhiz is nothing short of trying to game the 1RR rule, and create enough disruptions in order to level a false change against an editor who is simply reverting VANDALISM, because when you <!-- Hidden text --> or keep placing random shame TAGS you are causing major disruptions to the article. I think that users GizzyCatBella, Volunteer Marek, Nihil novi and MyMoloboaccount can all confirm what is happening because they all at some point were forced to revert all the TAGS and disruptive editing on the page. --E-960 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC) NeilN, to respond to your follow up questions. In reference to the edit which included this tag {{verify|reason="Collaborators" or "blackmailers"?}}, I went ahead and simply resolved the issue which the TAG highlighted, by adding the following text "and blackmailers (szmalcownik)" after confirming that the image related to both 'collaborators' and 'blackmailers'. So, this was not a blank revert, but a resolution of the question which the TAG asked. Though, I removed the TAG first (which is the edit you are following up on), and in the following edit included the correcting text , because if you notice below, this was a really BIG TAG that was messing up the small IMAGE THUMBNAIL where it was placed inside of, yes actually inside the image frame (bit annoying when I first saw it, but went ahed to resolve the issue not just blank the TAG). And to my surprise actually received a public Thank You from François Robere for resolving this items. (I'll admit there was a bit of clumsy editing on this one, but there was never an intent to just revert, but to resolve the question which the TAG addressed). This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Find sources: "Enforcement" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (Learn how and when to remove this message) Regarding the second item, , this was a first time reverted (not a revert after a revert), of text about 'anti-Jewish sentiment related to the Catholic Church and Communism', which though related to the article went off on a tangent outside of the scope of collaboration, thus I recommend that this should be discussed first. However, again I'd like to note that this text was only removed one time (not a revert of a revert). Also, there was a second statement which discussed 'Polish wartime casualties' which François Robere removed from the introduction paragraph, which again simply did not relate to collaboration. But, this time Volunteer Marek reverted (accidentally running over the two TAG items that I resolved successfully), so thus I did not again try to revert this particular text, but in the Edit Summary left a note that this text does not really belong in this article . --E-960 (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by GizzyCatBella I have no time to measure this but I would like to make an honest plea to the evaluating administrator. Please (please) review this especially thoroughly since Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of filing dubious claims.. Also please consider the frequency Icewhiz arrives here denouncing his opponents of violations - 3 times in the last five days alone. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by François Robere I don't think E-960 had any ill intent in any of these edits, but I very much dislike their characterization of others' edits as dishonest or intentionally damaging, and I similarly dislike GizzyCatBella's tendency of doing so. Icewhiz is well within his rights in filing this request, and I suggest any editor who thinks of initiating yet another uninvited smear campaign examine their own behavior instead. François Robere (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer Marek User:NeilN, yes, that was a straight forward correction (and it was my fault - I was editing while travelling) not a revert.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2018 (UTC) Result concerning E-960 This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above. @NeilN: These are your page restrictions, could you evaluate this report? Sandstein 08:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC) I will look at this some time today. --NeilN 13:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC) I've semied the article under DS for a month. E-960, I am concerned about two reverts. , This seems like a violation of WP:1RR. Please comment. Volunteer Marek can you please kindly confirm or not if E-960 was correcting some accidental editing here. --NeilN 05:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC) Judging from the responses above and the lack of administrator comments here, there's little appetite for sanctioning E-960. Unless there's further input, I will be closing this with note to E-960 to be a little more careful. --NeilN 12:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Thewolfchild

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Thewolfchild

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Thewolfchild (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Battleground_conduct
• AE: Thewolfchild is warned

The March 2018 AE discussion (AE:Thewolfchild) detailed a pattern of battleground behaviour, directed at me (largely) & other contributors. It closed with a warning to TWC to not personalise disputes; avoid 'clerking' / impeding consensus; canvassing, & more. However, such behaviour has continued:

1. 24 April, Creating drama / aspersions: "This constant bickering..." & "that huge train-wreck of an RfC..." (TWC's inability to let go of the RfC was discussed at the prior AE). TWC edit warred to prevent collapsing off-topic material: & . Added for clarity: I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him; that was done by another contributor: & .
2. 14 May 2018, Hounding / issuing threats: suggesting that all firearms articles that I edited "(33 and counting!)" should be listed at WP:GUNS to discuss "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required" & "This should be examined, this should all be examined, and thoroughly." After pushback, TWC seems to have backtracked a bit: "the main goal here is to review the edits, not the editor" . This still leaves open the door that, perhaps, a secondary goal is to "review" (i.e. lightly harass) the editor.
3. 8 April 2018 & same, Clerking discussions / redacting comments. I reverted TWC once ; the other revert was by the OP. This resulted in a discussion on my TP (User talk:K.e.coffman/Archive/2018/April#April 2018), with belittling: "like some probational-acting-deputy-admin-in-training", etc.
4. 7 May 2018 More clerking, after an admin specifically told TWC "Don't ask for closes" .
5. 18:34, 5 May 2018, Personalisation of disputes: "your friend K.e. basically told me...". In response to the "friend" reference (a second time), I posted on TWC's TP: 19:11, 5 May 2018. (Prior reference to "friends": 15 April 2018). TWC then requested that I "please keep it off talk page": 22:51, 5 May.

Previous sanctions

• Given a warning (AE:Thewolfchild) on 25 March 2018 by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Block log

DS awareness

• Alerted about relevant DS on 0:55, 22 February 2018.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I believe that these diffs display battleground behaviour and targeting of my contributions. They also show no learning curve in terms of Wiki norms; e.g., this (unrelated) ANI about TWC closed w/o sanctions, but provided this illuminating diff by TWC: 11 April. Since TWC doesn't want me on his TP and reacts strongly even to mild cricism (e.g.: I'm genuinely shocked, shocked!...), I'm bringing this report here.

@Pudeo: Re ...far from actual personal attacks, I did not use the words “personal attacks” in my statement; please read it more carefully before commenting. On your other point, I indeed participated in the H&K TP, where I provided a detailed rationale & review of sources: Sample material in question, which was all cited to the manufacturer's web site.

@PackMecEng: Re ...you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore, I'm afraid that you got the timeline wrong. I added times to the diffs for clarity: TWC's request to "keep off" his TP comes last. Separately, I see that you participated in the 1st AE, where you accused others of "bludgeoning, threats, and badgering" & "WP:RIGHTGREATWRONG" , yet you don't see the same in TWC's behaviour.

General comment: Since my first interaction w/ TWC, which I can only describe as a series of emotionally unhinged outbursts (, (bottom of page) & ), TWC seems to have had a preoccupation with my editing. Despite having stated several times that he's not a member of WP:GUNS, TWC's suddenly so concerned for firearms articles that he's willing to recruit WP:GUNS editors to "thoroughly" examine my contributions?

Specific to the H&K aticle, I had suggested the participants raise the issue at either WP:NPOVN or WP:NOT: Applicable policies. This was ignored by TWC in favour of apparently conspiratorial thinking ("To what end?") and the suggestion that "as many editors as possible be made aware of this activity" . The latter may also violate the spirit of the warning given to TWC against canvassing by "using project pages". In any case, project TPs are not designed for involved editors to discuss possible "sanctions" against an editor who they may disagree with; that looked to me like a threat.

Lastly, the redactions by TWC are problematic because he was specifically warned about 'clerking' discussions, with a separate warning on his TP: "just stop acting like a clerk". This comment does not warrant placing an RPA template. That’s why I was puzzled as to why TWC insisted on redacting it, to the point of edit warring and badgering me on my Talk page. This suggests ownership to me, same as was brought up in the first AE discussion. Or as NeilN puts it: "...what was seen as disruptive was you having to get your two cents in everywhere" . In summary, some admins were calling for a topic ban at the 1st AE, so a warning was a fair outcome. The conditions were not that hard to follow, but here we are. --K.e.coffman (talk) 15:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@Springee: ...a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse..., this implies that I was uncivil and / or was provoking TWC. That's not the case as I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him in this case; that was done by another contributor: & . I added this to the original statement for clarity.

General comment: Re my edits allegedly being about essentially demonizing firearms in general, we can't go about editing these articles as if firearms were people too; BLP policies do not apply to them. Regarding TWC's list, what it shows is that our firearms articles suffer from a significant amount of unsourced / self-sourced promotional material and trivia, or what TWC calls content of neutral, encyclopedic value. I liked this bit of self-cited "origins story", with distinct settler-colonialist undertones:

In 1919, Chief Lame Deer from a Cheyenne tribe approached Arthur Savage to purchase lever-action rifles for the Indian reservation. The two men struck a deal — the tribe would get discounted rifles and Savage would get the tribe's support and endorsement. It was at this time in the company's history, that Arthur Savage added the Indian head logo — a direct gift from the Chief — to the company name.

References

1. "SavageArms.com". About Savage.

In Savage Arms. I'm always happy to discuss my edits, but since TWC's idea of me is that I'm set on "demonising" firearms, I'm not sure he's the right person for the task. In short, TWC has not been a positive presence in these articles. His participation has mostly amounted to disruption of talk pages & bullying of other participants. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Notification

• 14 May

Discussion concerning Thewolfchild

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Thewolfchild

Well, let's start by calling this what it really is... a pre-emptive strike. As K.e noted in point #2, on the H&K416 talk page, I had suggested that some of the edits he has made to firearm-related articles be reviewed at WT:GUNS. He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring. But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article. Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article, and since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale (see here, this is just major edits and does not include numerous minor edits). His editing has the single-minded objective of removing content of neutral, encyclopedic value, while at the same time pushing for the addition of "criminal use", "use in mass-shootings", and other controversial material, essentially demonizing firearms in general. Just because he adds (the almost standard now) edit summary; "remove per wp:catalog, will save on talk page" doesn't really mean anything. Multiple editors have objected to these edits (see the Glock talk page) but K.e. either just stands his ground or doesn't engage. I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members. Hence the reason that I suggested the review, other editors agreed... and now we have this "AE complaint".

As for the rest of K.e.'s report, (other than the minutiae he went digging for from weeks ago), the gist of it is some of my talk page posts are sarcastic. Well, let's gauge that against the condescending arrogance of his comments, the ones that aren't appallingly hypocritical or just outright bullshit. Look no further than his comments here; "badgering", "edit-warring", "threats", "hounding", "harrassment", "emotionally unhinged", "conspiratorial thinking", "canvassing", "ownership", "clerking" (ad nauseum), etc., etc., etc. At what point does an admin see that this clearly crosses the line from "report" to "blatant, personal attacks"...? Not to mention that this is basically abuse of a project function. Like K.e's, my contribs speak for themselves. I've made enough edits to firearm-related articles (though few and usually minor) over the years to show that I don't have a "sudden interest" in this subject. However, I haven't made any significant content edits to firearm-related articles since the Stoneman shooting (save for reverts, even to changes I agree with but were done improperly), instead my edits have been mostly confined to talk pages. Since that event, there has been this persistent, topic-wide debate between two entrenched factions of editors and IP users (call them what you will, "pro-gun", "anti-gun", whatever...), constantly debating and changing content, most of which leads to article disruption (how many pages have been protected now?) and/or page-fill/time-sinks on talk pages. Most of my posts have called out against this; look no further than K.e.'s point #1 for an example of this. Yes, I have a recent AE warning, and while I clearly stated that I disagreed with both the way that report was handled and some of Neil's warning afterward, I don't feel that I've violated that warning. Tagging one comment as RPA (which was not an issue until K.e. made it one days later), posting one simple close request or un-collapsing my own comment, hardly qualifies as "clerking", nor do I see it as a violation of the warning I rec'd (2 months ago now) or the AE sanctions in general. In other words, I think this is a big waste of time. How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway? He can't just come running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page. Perhaps a boomerang is in order and if I really cared about all this, mayne I push for that, but really... enough of this nonsense already. - WOLFchild 23:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@ Bishonen - I already memtioned the allegations of "hounding" and "harrassing" above as I don't see how that's been demonstrated. I've largely avoided K.e. since the last AE report, except, as seen in the very diffs he's provided, where he has "hounded and harassed" me and I asked him on his talk page to both explain and stop this behaviour. I'm aware of what Neil's warning stated, but the simple fact is, I had no idea just how extreme it was intended to be, nor exactly what all activities are considered "clerking" (eg: the "don't ask for closes" bit; At all? Ever?) Since that comment, I've asked for for exactly one close. A simple, straight forward and uncontroversial close that no one took issue with - until K.e. brought it up here. I redacted exactly one comment, that again was discussed, resolved and uncontroversial - until days later when K.e. reverted, collapsed and basically shit-disturbed a minor issue that had nothing do do with him. Nothing. And I un-collapsed my own comment. I see where Neil has said below; Also, if an editor feels there is a pattern of inappropriate collapses, bring that issue (with solid evidence) to AE., but first, why would anyone need to do that, just to un-collapse their own comment? Isn't that just straight-forward disruptive behaviour that any admin can address at any time? And conversely, where was it shown here, (with solid evidence) that I have such a history of disruptively un-collapsing my own comments, that I should've assumed that the warning extended to me 'never being allowed to un-collapse my own comment again'? The point is, I take it that these warnings are to prevent disruption to the project, especially to articles which fall under AE sanctions, and I don't see how these three three minor actions noted above can in any way be construed as being disruptive, nor do I see how they clearly violate the warning issued, as it is written.

Lastly, in regards to comments about my post at the HK416 talk page; I have seen on other project talk pages where editors have posted concerns about changes being made to articles that fall under the scope of that project, how is this any different? (And this isn't just me, other editors agree with that post). I had noted that multiple editors were expressing concern over the content removals to that article (concerns that were not being addressed). Then I noticed the same issue at the Glock talk page. At that time, I had no idea as to the extent of the issue (I only have 3 or 4 firearm articles on my watchlist) and when I started to look further, I also 'blinked in disbelief' when I saw just how many articles were affected and how much content was being arbitrarily removed, all quietly under the radar, and all by a single editor! An editor whom others have expressed neutrality concerns about in the past in regards to this topic. There are ≈ 50 articles affected (so far), why try address this on 50 article talk pages when we have a central project talk page to review this on, all at once? Now, something that is repeatedly and conveniently being overlooked is the immediate (and last) comment I posted after the "proposal" comment, where I wrote: the main goal here is to review the edits, not the editor. Further, as you noted, I suggested that as many editors as possible review these content removals, not just people that don't like K.e. or just me on my own. The more editors involved, the more neutral and transparent the process. Beyond that, the simple fact is I had no intention of taking part, because I wanted to avoid accusations of bias. But that said, the simple fact is if these edits were found to be in violation of the AE sanctions, any other editor could post a report about that here. I've seen where one editor has reminded another that an article has fallen under sanctions before, so just what is the issue here? How is this considered to be "personalizing"? How can this be construed as a "threat"? K.e. made the edits, I can't help that, and I didn't start the (multiple) discussions complaining about those edits. Lastly, as you well know, editors can't impose sanctions, bans, blocks etc., it's supposed to be uninvolved admins that do that. Editors can only file reports, and I haven't even done that. I was still listing out all the content removals when this report popped up, clearly to prevent those mass content removals that are causing such discontent from being reviewed. This is distraction, and it seems to be working. - WOLFchild 00:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Pudeo

Petty complaints about word choices that are far from actual personal attacks. K.e.coffman, you should go back to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit because five people disagreed with your removal of the "intricate detail". I really don't think just citing WP:INDISCRIMINATE gives you the mandate for this deletionist streak on gun articles because the policy's just against "unexplained statistics". People agreed WP:PROMO material should be removed, but self-published sources are allowed for non-controversial claims (WP:SPS). And you also removed important information such as the weight of the weapon from the infobox. If you really think that's "intricate detail" you should start a RfC to remove it from Template:Infobox weapon, not do it article by article.

Also anyone is allowed to remove personal attacks per WP:RPA, but yeah, it tends to lead to a controversy if you do that because PAs can be ambiguous. --Pudeo (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Toddst1

I'm not at all a fan of wolfie, in fact I think in general he's a great example of how an editor should not behave. However, in reviewing this RFAR/E that I stumbled upon, I can't find anything that would be actionable as a violation of his sanction. Toddst1 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I think TWC's response here speaks for itself and negates what I wrote above. Toddst1 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Dlthewave

I would encourage folks to consider the context of point #1. Sure, we often see poor word choices during spirited discussions, but this is something different. TWC chose to start a new section in the midst of an ongoing discussion to complain about the fact that the discussion was taking place as well as the outcome of the RfC and the amount of "disruption" in this subject area. I tried to collapse the unproductive side conversation which ensued but TWC insisted on keeping it open. TWC was also among a group of editors who opposed efforts to rewrite the WP:GUNS style guide to comply with the outcome of an RfC. Their contributions to this discussion amount to nothing more than whining about the RfC and more allusions to disruption, with no real effort to move forward. I'll leave it to TWC to explain which instances of "disruption" they are referring to. This incivility has a chilling effect on the consensus building process and may well be discouraging editors from participating in gun politics-related discussions, an area which is in desperate need of additional neutral voices. –dlthewave ☎ 02:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

TWC's problematic behavior is not limited to gun politics. Over the past several months they've shown ownership at Federal Bureau of Investigation as well: In a talk page discussion (permalink to section) TWC advised a new user that if you're planning on making major/mass changes to an article, especially one as significant as this one, I would suggest that you first work them out in your sandbox, that way you're not filling up the page history as well as all the watchpages of those editors who have this page on their watchlist. Also, once you've written out all the changes you wish to make, you can propose them on the talk page. They repeated the demand on the user's talk page, leaving out the fact that editors are also welcome to edit the article directly without first proposing changes. This was all in response to a fairly small series of edits. More recently, TWC reverted an edit with the reason "perhaps propose this on talk as a more abbreviated version could be added to "controversy" section", again implying that changes need to be proposed first. In the ensuing discussion, TWC adds As it is, It's somewhat lengthy, the writing needs improvement and it should probably go to the "controversy" section (if it's to be re-added). I'm not necessarily against re-adding, but I haven't read through all the attached sources yet. I will do that shortly, and perhaps add some suggestions. But this is a high-profile, high traffic page, so I wouldn't be surprised if others have some comments and suggestions to add as well. Give it a day, there's no harm in that. Talk soon. This is essentially a demand that content be kept out of the article until it has been reviewed and approved by TWC and other unnamed editors. Of note is the fact that this seems to have convinced the other editor to drop the proposed edit and leave the discussion, even though no policy-based rationale for outright removal was provided. (I've since reopened this discussion, I didn't include recent developments here but folks are welcome to take a look at the ongoing conversation.) –dlthewave ☎ 17:28, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by PackMecEng

This is getting a little silly.

1 - I was part of that RFC and it basically went the way I voted, but it certainly was a heated train wreck. I still feel back for Fish and karate on that mess of a RFC coming with the right close, but one no one would appreciate.

2 - Seeing as they have not seemed to follow K.e.coffman to any other articles hounding is a bit of a stretch. But the unilateral large scrubbing of over 33 articles did create issues and disruptions on several of those articles that everyone is still trying to workout.

3 - Has been covered above by Pudeo, but not sure why you took it upon yourself to insert yourself in that situation two days after it was done. Second revert should of just been left alone and done by someone else in my opinion. Finally everything in this part is over a month old at this point.

4 - It appears they were not part of the discussion there and reading it over two people in the discussion asked it to be closed. Posting a neutral request on the proper board does not seem like a violation of NeilN's request from the looks of it.

5 - Seems minor, though your response was not exactly helpful. Especially when you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore.

The "shocked!" did not come off as serious in the context of the discussion. At this point seems like you two could use a break from one another. PackMecEng (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman You are right on the time stamp, I was mistaken sorry about that. In regards to my previous comments at AE you posted, kind of an ad hominem attack there but different situation in response to a more disruptive editor posting about me specifically. Not relevant or equal. PackMecEng (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@Geogene: you seem to have it a little backwards here. Several people that work on that project have already stated above that the disruption is K.e.coffman gutting parts of several gun related articles in a aparently POV manner and has issues collaborating with people of different views leading to WP:PUSH type of situations. As for intimidating the invader, which is an odd thing to say since it is K.e. that has repeatedly brought people here they disagree with. PackMecEng (talk) 13:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bishonen: Habbit would be the correct term here, in reference to bring in people they disagree with. A search through the archives shows that pretty well. Even being dragger here two previous times with no sanctions shows the hounding KEC is doing here with a chilling effect on other contributors. As to beyond the pale and disbelief blinking, those are good ones by the way, from what I can tell it was never posted at GUNS unless I am not seeing it. Though I will admit GUNS would of been a better place to fix all the issues caused by KEC than one of the disrupted articles talk pages. PackMecEng (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Springee

I've been reluctant to post here. Like Dlthewave and PackMecEng I've been active on some of the articles in question and typically I'm on the same side of the debate as TWC and PackMecEng (opposite K.e.coffman and Dlthewave). TWC is certainly not dry in their presentation. If K.e.coffman has any flaws they aren't terse comments directed at others. K.e.coffman is very calm even in disagreement but can also be politely pushy. Both editors are trying to make a better encyclopedia. That said, I don't see merit to this ARE.

First point was disparaging an RfC. OK, well that RfC was a train wreck. See PackMecEng's comments above.

The scrubbing of gun articles was something I've also noticed as well. I felt K.e.c was often too aggressive but in general I haven't wanted to get involved. I think they were doing it in good faith but too dogmatically and without thinking about what readers might find of value. Given the range of articles impacted, WP:Firearms (WP:guns) is the most obvious place to start a discussion regarding what sort of information is going to be of interest to readers etc. I reviewed the H&K HK416 cuts, Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit, and found that many were good (and credit to K.e.c for always leaving talk page comments noting the changes) but others were questionable. I argued that perhaps 1/4 of the material either shouldn't have been removed or could have been easily fixed (remove promotional language, keep the factual statements). If that was true across the other articles then yes, the content should be reviewed. In a reply above K.e.c noted that TWC isn't a WP:Firearms project member. Why would that matter? I'm not either but that didn't stop K.e.c from reproachfully suggesting my edits/comments in the area were unwelcome advocacy (twice if I recall).

The collapsing of "off topic discussions", like the removal of personal attacks, is a dangerous game. I don't blame TWC for getting annoyed with some of that behavior. When editors who are participants on the talk page and on opposing sides of a contentious issue collapse one another's posts it certainly will come across as provocative. Dlthewave collapsed TWC's comments (from the original complaint ]) and TWC likely, and not unreasonably, didn't appreciate it ]. It would be different if an uninvolved admin had collapsed the comments.

The worst thing I see in this whole list was the redacting of what TWC felt was a personal attack. I think that was a borderline case and it would have been better to let it go or ask an uninvolved editor to help. This seems like a lot to do about not much. Springee (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

• I have to agree with PackMecEng's comment here ] which disagrees with Geogene's assessment. NeilN, I would request that involved editors should seek consensus before collapsing comments. K.e.c's complaint included the claim that reversing this collapse of TWC's comments was a violation of their edit restrictions. ] I would see such a collapse of my comments as a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse after it was removed. Perhaps a clear option for dealing with such provocations would be helpful if TWC isn't allowed to reverse them directly. Springee (talk) 13:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• dlthewave, while I can see your recent complaint about the FBI page do keep in mind that you went to that article and reverted TWC more or less out of the blue and without a really strong talk page justification. Not that you aren't allowed to make such a change and with your input the consensus just became 3:1 for the new material. But consider what you did. You inserted yourself into a discussion that wasn't overly heated or confrontational and made changes that are likely to increase tensions. BTW, I'm not saying that was your intent but we (and I'm sure this points at me too) should think about how others might view our edits, not just what our intent might be. I can see why, given your other editor interactions with TWC, they might be rather defensive about that. Springee (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• @Sandstein, NeilN, MastCell, Bishonen, Drmies, and Thryduulf: For what it's worth, I would like to suggest the 3 month appeal window. If this were a time limited block then I can see the logic in waiting 6 months rather than 3 (harder to just wait it out). However, since the topic ban indef what's the harm in allowing a 3 month vs 6 month appeal? If TWC gets things in order then the extra 3 months is no longer needed to protect Misplaced Pages and thus is nothing more than punishment. On the other hand, if they can't show things have improved then the topic block stays in place. Springee (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Waleswatcher

I've had some recent interactions with TWC that were unpleasant and verging on uncivil, for instance this. Waleswatcher (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Geogene

TWC's response here is bad enough by itself to suggest admin intervention. Not only do they not see any issue with their previous suggestion of setting up some kind of Project Firearms taskforce to spy on K.e.coffman's (K) edits in an organized manner, TWC took K's concern about that bizarre and aberrant suggestion as an admission of being guilty of...something (a pre-emptive strike....He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring). Then TWC reveals an OWN mentality when they begin trying to insinuate doubt into whether K should be editing firearms articles at all due to a short tenure (But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article) and because K may not be editing with the motivations of a firearms enthusiast (Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article). TWC then makes a vexatious complaint about K being too prolific (since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale). And finally, he complains about K, in effect, not asking Project Firearms for permission to edit firearms articles: ( I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members).

K.e.coffman is now editing firearms articles, TWC sees this as an incursion on his longstanding territory, and is trying to intimidate the invader. This is unacceptable behavior from TWC; Admins should remove him from the conflict area. Geogene (talk) 04:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies

Preliminaries first: I've had some run-ins with The Wolfchild but I think we've been getting along better--at any rate my decreasing powers of memory make it hard for me to carry grudges. Anyway, I think I kind of like em; they remind me of good old Dennis, with whom I still have to have a beer. On the other hand, I've sided with Coffman a few times on content things, and I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks cause that makes things complicated. Reading over the diffs and then reading over the comments, it is tempting to say that INDEED there are not the hugest, disruptivest matters--but then one overlooks the previous history, and that's the problem here. Wolfchild, I read your list of quotations, the words that you argue make this turn from report into personal attacks: the problem here is, sorry, that Coffman has a good point. These are things that you do. And I'll tell you what, it was a very minor thing that you just did that reminded me that there was a thread here--you just archived a bunch of stuff on that AR-15 style talk page, which is fine! absolutely fine--but it brought me back here, and yes, there is something to this clerking bit, the accusation that you are doing more than just housekeeping. I'll leave it to the admins (if any of em want to jump into the gun thing) to weigh the diffs presented by Coffman, but I do think they should look carefully at them, since I do think that on occasion you can be a bit...aggressive, maybe, in your out-of-article behavior. I'm trying to phrase this delicately; I'm sure I'm not succeeding. But I'm really with Geogene, above, with whom I just edit-conflicted. Your response here kind of proves the point, and there are other topic areas where there is less of an opportunity for things to get out of hand. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Bishonen, you're right--I guess it's my confirmation bias: I've looked at those two earlier requests (because I have had run-ins with the same editors, I think), and I look at very few others, so I extrapolated unjustifiably. My apologies to K.e.coffman. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Lklundin

I agree with the criticisms formulated by user K.e.coffman. User Thewolfchild seems to have no understanding of what a collaborative effort is. The contributions of an editor is not measured simply in terms of their actual edits, but just as much in terms of how they affect other contributors that they interact with. With respect to the latter, user Thewolfchild uses basically every opportunity to demonstrate that they have no regard for how their actions may negatively impact other editors. Based on that, I support the request. Lklundin (talk) 13:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Since some contributions here may be out of general interest in the matter, I wanted to detail my specific interactions with Thewolfchild.

In connection with this minor edit I had apparently made an formatting error and had unfortunately not even understood that I had made an error. Since Thewolfchild's subsequent revert had an edit summary that was not very helpful I tried to understand what the problem was with this message to his talk page: . This caused Thewolfchild to post this on the talk page of the article itself, describing my contributions with words such as 'monkeying about' and 'ridiculous' using an overall condescending language, that as an example of abusive language is worth a read.

I had by then seen and fixed my error and I took note of the importance of not making a mistake while contributing to Misplaced Pages. When I later went back and made more substantial contributions to the article, it did occur to me that the Thewolfchild's behaviour is something that could cause other editors to question their motivation for continuing their effort on Misplaced Pages. So when my Watchlist indicated that Thewolfchild's editing behaviour was a topic here, I felt I should contribute my experience. Thank you. Lklundin (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Ｔｏｍ

Hello, I hope I can write understandable, especially because I a absolutely not used to write in this areas of en:WP. For me it is quite clear, that here a case is just between two users. One of them has done his job in an area for a good while .. a second wants to enter and to be a new "primate". I would suggest to evaluate the working force which has been spend for this project. It is more or less ridiculous to push away authors which have done and do their job for the purpose of this project. HTH --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 17:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC) I'll try to explain more ... sorry for googletranslation: "If someone is new somewhere, you first see who has the most experience. This is a process as it is practiced in many areas of this company. New colleagues are always kindly welcomed. How it goes then lies in the positive contributions. For Karl-EE and D-David that was completely indifferent. They were not interested in content, nor to help each other, but in structural changes, as D-David clearly demonstrated. In the Ottoman Empire, the fratricide on the inauguration of a new sultan from the 15th to the 17th century was common. See Fratricide#Ottoman_Empire. We do not want something like that in this company. The complainant Karl-EE should be ashamed of what. Both (Karl-EE and D-David) did not remain without guilt. The constant pursuit of the work of Wolf and others had no other purpose than to keep them from the work and to fulfill the own mission of Karl-EE and D-David. This is like playing chess - whoever pulls first has the advantage. But that is not in the sense of this company. Complainant Karl-EE should be reminded. This is a colloborative project. I can say that I had no problems with Wolf. I can not understand why Wolf would have any restrictions." I hope that is not to weired. I just try to explain the situation. --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 06:39, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by 72bikers

Hello, I would like to point out the editor who started this discussion has been guilty of some very uncivil behavior and he himself has made personal attacks such as this . So I would say it takes two to tango. The other editors who have come here who share his views (seem intent on removing obstacles to there views) and claimed inappropriate behavior, have themselves also have been uncivil at times and have engaged in harassment. Such as but not limited to making repeated unsubstantiated warnings, even after ask to not post on numerous talk pages because of this. -72bikers (talk) 15:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Thewolfchild

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'll await input from User:Thewolfchild. TWC, could you please comment here, or else indicate whether or not you intend to? Bishonen | talk 18:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC).
• It seems Thewolfchild can't help themselves. I'd block for a week. This shows poor judgment in determining what is a redactable personal attack and they were also told not to ask for closes. Since maintain or "clerk" any discussions still seems unclear to them despite my followups, I'd add "they must not touch other editors' comments for any reason on any talk page except their own". --NeilN 13:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• @Springee: Other editors can handle that with an appropriate edit summary at which point the discussion should not be re-collapsed without seeking the advice of an uninvolved admin. Also, if an editor feels there is a pattern of inappropriate collapses, bring that issue (with solid evidence) to AE. --NeilN 14:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• I suppose TWC's question above, "How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway?" was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: three reports AFAIK. This one in December 2017, which concerned American politics, nothing to do with gun control, and led to a warning, this report concerning you, TWC in March 2018, which also led to a warning; and now this ongoing report, which claims you have violated that warning. The reason I'm answering a rhetorical question is that I don't want it to become a meme, for lack of contradiction, that KEC comes "running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page", and because it worries me a little to see Drmies apparently buying into it ("I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks" — their habit, really?).

Anyway, I recommend admins to read the original report from March 2018, which contained some very strong admin statements, and ended in a strong warning, phrased and logged by NeilN. Note, as soon as the next day, NeilN warned TWC again for being too bold with talk page actions and "clerking", despite just having been warned against it. What concerns me most, though, is the personalising of disputes. This recent post, on the talkpage of some model of carbine rifle, from an editor who was fairly recently warned "not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language ("comment on the content, not the contributor")", is so far beyond the pale it can't even see the pale. It's an article talkpage, but TWC nevertheless posts a proposal to list all articles KEC has removed content from at WT:GUNS (sic, the firearms wikiproject talkpage), to have as many editors as possible review "this activity" en masse, and then determine "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required". All this at WT:GUNS! Of course that sort of thing is by no means what project pages, or article talkpages, are for. I blinked in some disbelief when I saw it. I propose a topic ban from gun and gun-control related pages (broadly construed) and discussions for TWC, to be appealed in the usual ways, but also specifically with a recommended appeal here in six months, which will be viewed favorably iff TWC is then able to show they've been editing in other areas without hounding or harassing other users. Bishonen | talk 15:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC).

• The March 2018 AE report on Thewolfchild was closed with a series of warnings to Thewolfchild about his behavior. He seems to have set about systematically disregarding those warnings:

1. "not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language": K.e.coffman's evidence, and Bishonen's comment above, show Thewolfchild doing exactly that.
2. "not to impede the formation of consensus by being too bold with talk page actions": Again, K.e.coffman's evidence shows Thewolfchild continuing to aggressively over-police talkpages (e.g. ).
3. "to acknowledge consensus can change and having external events bring increased scrutiny and change to potential walled gardens of articles can be beneficial and should not be ridiculed": K.e. coffman presents evidence that Thewolfchild continued to resist and ridicule the impact of outside scrutiny (and the result of an RfC) on the walled garden of firearms articles ().

• The previous AE thread also closed with a warning that "canvassing amongst project members or by using project pages will be heavily frowned upon". Yet here's Thewolfchild, suggesting that the Firearms WikiProject should conduct a targeted "review" of all of K.e.coffman's contributions in the topic area. As others have pointed out, this suggestion shows a profound misunderstanding of the role of WikiProjects and of our policies on article ownership and "hounding" other editors. (I'll give WikiProject members the benefit of the doubt and assume that they similarly recognized the inappropriateness of this suggestion and pushed back against it). Thewolfchild's comments here are similarly suffused with an inappropriate "ownership" mentality.

  In any case, at the previous AE request, I argued that Thewolfchild should be indefinitely topic-banned from firearms-related content. At the time, I was in the minority, and I accepted warnings as a suitable alternative. Everything I've seen in the interim has confirmed my initial impression: this is an editor who cannot comport himself productively in this topic area, and who is a net-negative in the effort to build encyclopedic coverage of firearms. His point-by-point flouting of the previous set of warnings is conclusive, and I would recommend an indefinite topic-ban from firearms-related articles, pages, and material, with an option to appeal once six months have elapsed. MastCell  18:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I think that NeilN as issuer of the previous warning should decide what to do here. A block would be understandable. Sandstein 18:24, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• My recommendation was implemented and we've ended up here. Time for another admin to take the lead, I think. --NeilN 18:29, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree with NeilN. There's no reason to make the issue "his" because he implemented the warning — on the contrary, if anything. I know this has been open for a while, but I suggest we wait for at least one or two more uninvolved admins to opine. Bishonen | talk 20:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC).

• Something needs to be done here regarding TWC's actions, and there are two ways forward as I see it. The first is to give them a last chance, the second is to treat the warnings given last time they were here as their last chance and to sanction appropriately. I'm inclined towards the latter option as the evidence shows they have done almost the exact opposite in all cases, but a block feels punitive at this point so I suggest a time-limited topic ban (perhaps 3 months) from pages related to firearms (broadly interpreted), including but not limited to, articles, talk pages, project pages and drafts.

I also think that the warnings should be converted into ongoing restrictions, specifcally TWC:

1. Must not personalize disputes, use inflammatory language or make personal attacks.
2. Must not mpede the formation of consensus, for example by being too bold with talk page actions. Specifically this means they not edit, collapse, refactor, reformat or remove any comments from any other user on any page other than their own user talk page (or its archives). The only exception is for obvious BLP violations.
3. Must accept consensus can change and must not ridicule, disparage or resist discussions related to determining whether it has.
4. Must not ridicule, disparage or resist increased scrutiny or wider input to discussions (or attempts to bring these)
5. Must not engage in canvassing or otherwise attempt to manipulate consensus.

Violation of these will result in topic bans, blocks and/or other sanctions as appropriate. These would apply across the whole project, but violations within the firearms topic area will be regarded as more serious and result in stronger sanctions. Thryduulf (talk) 00:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I object to a time-limited topic ban, Thryduulf, because in my experience people often wait them out and then return to the area without having reconstructed their attitude any. If you think three months is suitable, I suggest instead an indefinite topic ban, to be appealed in three months at the earliest. (I know we can't stop people from appealing according to the usual rules, for instance tomorrow, but we can say it's unlikely to be viewed favorably before three months have passed.) I'd prefer six months, but I'll trim. Secondly, I also object to all the other restrictions you list, that are basically the old warnings refurbished; they're just too many; it's honestly too discouraging to have to edit under such a hailstorm of restrictions and restraints. I couldn't do it, and I also think it might invite, well, misuse by opponents. Instead, how about this? Thewolfchild is indefinitely topic banned from pages and discussions related to firearms, broadly construed. An appeal in no less than three months is likely to be viewed favourably provided they are then able to show their editing in other areas has avoided a) personalizing disputes, making personal attacks, ridiculing or disparaging other editors and b) impeding the formation of consensus, for example by being too bold with talk page actions, or canvassing. What do you say, @Sandstein, NeilN, and MastCell:? And @Drmies:, or do you count yourself as involved? Bishonen | talk 17:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC).

@Bishonen: I would not oppose that (or six months if other prefer). Thryduulf (talk) 13:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that I have examined this case closely enough to be able to voice an opinion. Sandstein 14:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Bishonen, I don't consider myself involved but I think The Wolfchild does--I think they have a tendency, ahem, to personalize disputes, and the last thing we need is yet another censured editor who takes up our time and resources by arguing that blah blah etc. Drmies (talk) 18:10, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bishonen: I think a three-month timer for an appeal would be fine (I see that Springee has requested this as well). I guess 3 months is no more or less arbitrary than 6 months; the main point of these timers is to prevent the inevitable instantaneous, vexatious appeal, and also to provide time for an editor to show an actual change in his or her behavior. That said, I do disagree, mildly, with your proposed wording in one regard: I would remove the language about an appeal being "likely to be viewed favorably". As I mentioned in the March 2018 AE request, this editor had already been given quite a few "last chances" (even before the March 2018 warnings), and in each case abused the leeway and the benefit of the doubt that he was given. If/when he appeals this sanction, the bar should be set quite high given his previous track record and multiple failed "last chances", so I'd prefer not to create a presumption in favor of lifting the topic ban. He has a lot to prove in terms of being able to edit productively in this topic area. MastCell  18:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I was also struck by Springee's sensible comment about three vs six months, MastCell. I'm fine with three. Do you think you could phrase something that avoids the "likely to be viewed favorably"? Bishonen | talk 19:01, 21 May 2018 (UTC).

I'd probably keep the first sentence of your proposal, and change the second to something like: "He may appeal in no less than 3 months." I think it should be clear to him by now what he needs to work on. MastCell  20:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

OK. I spelled out the conditions and so on in order to distinguish the "appeal in no less than three months" from the formal right all users sanctioned per DS have to appeal right away. But hopefully we can take that as implied. So "Thewolfchild is indefinitely topic banned from pages and discussions related to firearms, broadly construed. They may appeal the ban in no less than three months." Is everyone all right with that? If we don't hear any objections from uninvolved admins, I suggest either you or I (HINT HINT: you!) do the paperwork in about 24 hours, MastCell. Bishonen | talk 21:38, 21 May 2018 (UTC).

Three months before appeal sounds good. I would prefer the "likely to be viewed favorably" wording to be included as getting yourself banned/blocked hits home and triggers a change in behavior the way other sanctions often don't, but will not press the issue. --NeilN 13:21, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Icewhiz

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Poeticbent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (ARBPIA)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 15:29, 14 May 2018 User Icewhiz in less than one hour (!) removed all mentions of notable historian Anna Poray from over 60 articles. This massive POVPUSH was closely connected with Icewhiz's bad-faith AfD nomination. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
2. 15:37, 14 May 2018 Exactly as above. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
3. Got the message (!) and decided NOT to continue restoring citations pending request for enforcement.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Date Explanation
2. Date Explanation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
• Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
• Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
• Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See explanation by NeilN accompanying his editing restrictions imposed on 18 April 2018 (quote) Editors are subject to a one revert per twenty-four hours restriction when reverting logged-in users. Poeticbent talk 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

My reply to comment by Sandstein (16 May 2018). This has been going on for months thereby causing me great distress. For Icewhiz, all Polish sources are mere "opinions of Polish nationalists".

1. Icewhiz 10:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC): use of recent sources from within Poland in regards to the estimate is questionable.
2. Icewhiz 07:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC): The opinions of Polish nationalists (and lest I be accused for singling out a nation - the same is true of Russian, Ukrainian, or American nationalists) are for the most part WP:UNDUE, out of WP:PROPORTION, and possibly WP:FRINGE in the scope of scholarly discourse on Holocaust history.
3. Icewhiz 07:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC): As for including opinions of PhD holders - if we were to include the opinion of every PhD published on the web - that would be a very wide inclusion criteria. Nationalism, as a movement as a whole, is not fringe. A specific flavor of nationalism (in this case - Polish nationalism) - is a small minority...
4. Icewhiz 14:55, 3 April 2018 (UTC): surely there is a better source than Ambasador RP w Szwajcarii (Ambassador to Switzerland)
5. Icewhiz 11:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC): Institute of National Remembrance. That's not a peer reviewed publication or an academic publisher, but a government run organization. A better source, if available, preferably in English, would be an improvement.

What followed was a series of disruptive edits in mainspace along the same lines, meant only to inflict pain. If it wasn't Icewhiz but someone else, I would immediately report this user as a WP:vandalism-only account which (at that point) it certainly was:

1. Icewhiz 11:55, 25 April 2018 (-11,007)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ Quite a bit here is not sourced. The source in the lead is not a RS.
2. Icewhiz 11:56, 25 April 2018 (-1,645) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎References: not RS.)
3. Icewhiz 11:57, 25 April 2018 (-268)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Bibliography: not RS)
4. Icewhiz 11:59, 25 April 2018 (-933)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (remove non-RS.)
5. Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-386)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Jews and the Church: not RS. Text left unmodified - other supporting ref.)
6. Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-555)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Difficulties: not RS)
7. Icewhiz 12:03, 25 April 2018 (-991)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Jews and the Church: Mislabelled authorship. Not a RS.)
8. Icewhiz 12:04, 25 April 2018 (-561)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Bibliography: not RS)

I created that article with a lot of effort; and, I don't see how, with so many disruptive edits by Icewhiz within just several minutes, I could still pretend to continue to comment on content, not on the contributor anywhere in Misplaced Pages. However, it was just the beginning as I soon found out.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified, 6 May 2018.

Discussion concerning Icewhiz

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Icewhiz

A number of comments:

1. 1RR is not relevant. There is a page level restriction on Collaboration in German-occupied Poland‎, not on any page Poeticbent mentioned (some of which may not be under ARBEE - but most probably are). It seems this report was partially copy-pasted from a 1RR vio report I filed above.
2. I was not notified of this AE filing by Poeticbent as required (the diff supplied is a WP:POINTy BLP DS alert by Poeticbent - with text copy pasted from an alert I gave him after after he made this comment on a talk page, and given he made similar comments in the past (calling a work by a notable historian a "fabrication").
3. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was made in good faith - despite the 45 WP:ILIKEIT votes that appeared in very short succession (from non-AfD regulars) after nomination. The subject does not meet Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines (doesn't come close to meeting SIGCOV. BEFORE doesn't show much else. This was a librarian who in retirement ran a website http://www.savingjews.org/ which was also WP:SELFPUBLISHed as a book or e-book (publishing house listed as A. Poray), 7 refs in articles - 2 are by Poray herself, 2 are interviews on releasing the book (in sources that may not be RSes - however interviews do not establish notability regardless), 3 are obits).
4. I have indeed removed references to WP:SPS - this is well grounded in policy. In most cases I left a cn needed tag (as I suspected the information was copied (possibly with overlaid editorial) from a primary RS initially - e.g. Yad Vashem). In some cases I suspect the subjects mentioned were possibly BLPs (e.g. the son/daughter of a WWII era person) - which I removed outright per SPS: Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.. Note that it seems that Poray, other than her self-published book, never published in a reliable source, so it doesn't seem she falls under (the use with caution exception) the Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. (which doesn't apply to BLPs in any event).
5. Regarding the Poray SPS I have engaged in discussion where reverted - see Talk:Żegota#Anna Poray - SPS. Also see PB's response - (which contains personal attacks, addressing SPS with a very short and novel argument of "Anna Poray is not a WP:SPS publishing historian because she is deceased" (AFAIK self-published books do not become published on the death of their author)). The following 2 diffs are BLP violations by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella (unless they have a RS for each of the 27 names showing they are dead - per WP:BDP we assume individuals less than 115 year old (birth year 1903) are alive.).
6. GizzyCatBella has been inserting/resorting SPS content in a discretionary sanction area against policy - , , , . including false information (see Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#"only German-occupied European country" with death penalty and Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#"only occupied county with death penalty" for detailed refutation) from a questionable (Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#Use of Ewa Kurek as a source) author without discussing (I will note that I believe that a consensus has been reached with other editors to exclude) - repeatedly - . (I will note I took this to RSN - but it shouldn't have gone there - as there are no grounds for inclusion of information proven false, by a questionable author, in a self-published (iUniverse) setting). Note the IDHT given Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Your Life is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-occupied Poland, 1939-1945 - E. Kurek (while editing as an IP for a month (self-admitted)) back in April following another attempt at using Kurek.
7. Poeticbent has been inserting SPS content (over a very long period, however an exhaustive list of diffs will take time to compile) in several articles. He has been reverting removals (and for the most part not discussing constructively) - (added when PB created the article), (created by banned user Ecoleetage, Poray added by PB in 2008), .
8. I have been cleaning up poorly sourced and even outright fringe material (contrast Stawiski#Jewish community with the last version by Poeticbent whose actions have been commented on (not by myself - well before I started improving some of these articles), in the press outside of Misplaced Pages (this item does not mention Poeticbent by name, but if you follow the article history he is "On each occasion, the author of the Misplaced Pages Stawiski article immediately wiped out my edits") - I will note that this item makes the interesting observation that "Surprisingly, the Polish Misplaced Pages articles evidence greater willingness to admit Polish participation in massacres of Jews" (a pattern I have seen myself on many low traffic articles - I've been balancing some of the English Misplaced Pages articles using the Polish Misplaced Pages (tone and sourcing used there) - as the Polish Misplaced Pages is much less POVish, reflecting a diversity of Polish (and foreign) sources (as opposed to a very particular POV type of sources used in these enwiki articles)). Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (2nd nomination) and Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2018 March 23 (IIRC - created by Tymek, but heavily expanded by Poeticbent) are also instructive regarding the sort of content that has entered into the English Misplaced Pages in less visited topics.
9. During these cleanup efforts, I have been personally attacked by Poeticbent several times. As an example, please see the following: , , , , , in an edit summary - restoring SPS, , , , , , .

To sum up - removing a WP:SPS from articles, as mandated by policy, should not be attacked - definitely not on a personal level, and this is not a valid AE report (both in form (1RR, no notification) and in substance (removing a SPS is not a policy violation - to the contrary)). Despite the personal attacks, I have responded in a WP:CIVIL manner and on-topic (and I hope to the point, though I self-admit my writing may be winding) - addressing the content/sourcing dispute at hand, and not Poeticbent personally. Icewhiz (talk) 03:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@Masem: - my intention had been following an attempt at removing this clear SPS to proceed to the relevant talk pages and then to RSN if need be - following BRD. Many of these were added a long time ago when sourcing standards may have been laxer - it was not clear a-priori that removal would be challenged.Icewhiz (talk) 04:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@Masem: - regarding WP:FAIT - It is less than 60. I did not continue removing this SPS from other articles after being challenged by Poeticbent via reversion - I was not "apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed" while I was editing. I can revert all of my removals of this SPS in less than 15 minutes - this is much easier/faster than reviewing the articles and finding them in the first place - and I will do so myself if consensus is against this change (which I believe is well grounded in policy, this being self-published by an author not previously published in this field in a RS).Icewhiz (talk) 14:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I do however request that the following diffs with personal attacks by PB (a selection of item 9 above) be examined - .Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

RE Piotrus - I did notify Poeticbent of the AfD. I want to note that the mass insertion of WP:QS authors self-published works (such as works by Ewa Kurek, Mark Paul, Anna Poray) is a serious WP:NPOV / WP:FRINGE issue. Take Poray for instance - Her self published work was present in some 50 Misplaced Pages article (in many of them - further reading or as reference that was not inline, much of this inserted by Poeticbent) - google scholar has her at 0 citations (scholar only accounting for academic use). Contrast this with Gross's Fear - 359 google scholar cites vs. 11 uses on Misplaced Pages (including articles on Gross and the book itself), or Neighbors 718 google scholar cites vs. 13 Misplaced Pages cites (4 of them being the book, Gross, a book award, and a list of books).

Poeticbent has been inserting (and defending with great gusto) several of these WP:FRINGE WP:SPS works. At present, we have some articles that read like Alternate history - describing the Holocaust as a collaboration between Jews (Per Kurek they "had fun in the ghettos" enjoying autonomy and self-governance under the Germans) whose activities "'constituted de facto collaboration with Nazi Germany, with which the Soviet Union shared a common, criminal purpose and agenda in 1939–1945" (see this diff - quote from Mark Paul - from NEIGHBOURS -On the Eve of the Holocaust,); Oddly (per Paul, Kurek, and Poray who have all written on the subject) the majority of Poles acted in a noble fashion and despite the Jewish persecution against them - acted in an organized and dis-organized effort to rescue Jews on a massive scale - although this was not recognized properly by Yad Vashem's righteous awards. (mainline historical writing, while extolling the few righteous, seeing rescuers as a persecuted minority (by Poles and Germans) - with Jews in Poland being killed at one of the highest rates (approaching 90%) in the Holocaust - the majority of survivors surviving outside of Poland - escaping (or being expelled to the gulags by the Soviets) to the east).

This is the true disruption here - not only are these highly questionable authors, but more importantly - WP:FRINGE text from them is inserted into Misplaced Pages articles, in Misplaced Pages's voice and without balancing sources, in the first place - counter to WP:SPS / WP:BALASP / WP:FRINGE - attempts to rectify the situation are met with long discussions (with no policy legs), call for administrative action, and vehement personal attacks ().Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Additional personal attack/WP:ASPERSIONS by Poeticbent - 15:33, 16 May 2018 - (selective quotation) you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general.... Dozens of Misplaced Pages articles about Poland are under attack by the same WP:TAG TEAM on the basis of a smear campaign by Israeli media. Instead of buying into this WP:GAME of casting aspersions .... It is a false claim made by notorious POV pushers. (it also describes Poray's work in a manner not congruent with Misplaced Pages policy or other RSes).Icewhiz (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: While the original circa 2008 additions by Poeticbent are not actionable, the multipe recent reverts by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella , , , - after they have been clearly challenged as WP:SPS (by a fringe author to boot - and USHMM incidentally collects everything holocauat related - also fringe /denialist) - are actionable as editors are supposed to adhere to core policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV in a sanctioned area. This is not a borderline source - this is a clear fringe, self published book, by a non expert who has not published in a RS on this topic. I will further note that the revert in the Zegota article violates BLP policy (both of them being alerted to) - assuming they did not verify that all 27 named individuals are dead - then they are assumed alive per BDP.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

RE the diffs causing "great distress" above - the first 3 are to a page (talk and main) Poeticbent never edited (he did place a single oppose comment in the DYK nom). However, this page (talk and page) was edited heavily by GizzyCatBella at the time. This is quite interesting in regards to still open Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/GizzyCatBella and the evidence therein, being possible additional evidence.Icewhiz (talk) 03:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

RE Poeticbent: For Icewhiz, all Polish sources are mere "opinions of Polish nationalists". - this is a stmt easy to refute - as I've used Polish language sources (including nationalist ones - government in exile) for Aleksander Piotr Mohl e.g. , in Jan Grabowski (historian) (Polish language or Polish authors (in German and English)) - , or in Piotr Śmietański (where I removed text that was sourced to a blog which didn't actually make this claim, and then expanded the text there based on an article by two Polish historians) - . These popped off the top of my head - but there are probably quite a few additional examples.Icewhiz (talk) 11:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

RE Poeticbent : In regards to Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust diffs presented- this is an article (also after these removals, all the more prior to them) with serious V and NPOV problems, not reflecting mainline sources - in its present state, as a hagiography with dubious and false claims - it might be a net-negative for existence (the topic - is notable - and yes - there are some 6500+ recognized Polish rescuers of Jews). I removed self-published material from Mark Paul (a figure shrouded in mystery - little is known of him beyond his connection to KPK's good name committee - scant coverage of him, though his self-published writings have been referred to as an expression of the "ignoble ungrateful Jew" myth in a footnote in a RS - ) and Ewa Kurek (who is better known, but notorious - views described as outlandish ("Jews had fun in ghettos"), compared with David Irving, and described as a Holocaust Distorter ). Following adamant support for inclusion of this WP:SPS material (iUniverse in one case) by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella - I took it to RSN - Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul (which elicited comment also from a brand new account). However, I submit that supporting the inclusion of self-published material by authors described in RS as writing "myths" or engaging in "holocaust distortion" in an article about the holocaust - is a serious WP:NPOV and WP:V problem. While Poeticbent's authorship goes back a while, the support (discussion, reversion, and in other articles - addition) of Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella for these sources (Kurek, Paul) is current.Icewhiz (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Please recognize that this is not the first time Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing that The same happened to another historian Marek Chodakiewicz - 19 mass removals, some in the repetition of 2 minutes of each other. Attempts of discrediting and removal of other historians under false pretexts are constant and against the view of the majority of other editors. That is not genuine effort to build Misplaced Pages on the part of Icewhiz; this is a massive POV pushing and violation of precepts. Once again, I urge the evaluating administrator to take a sound look at Icewhiz editing record on Polish history articles (please). This user should be topic banned in my honest belief.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by François Robere

First of all, let me state the obvious: GizzyCatBella is everywhere. I haven't seen a single ANI case where she didn't appear to contribute some comment or another, invited or not. She may seem well-mannered, but make no mistake: It's WP:HOUNDING.

The topic in question is subject to much abuse, not least by this editor. She adds questionable sources again and again - non-historian Leszek Pietrzak , borderline denialist Eva Kurek , self published Mark Paul , dated sources , political appointees , and even "light reading" books ; all the while questioning encyclopedias , respected scholars , the occasional paper of record and other RS. This choice of sources seems to serve an agenda , and isn't helped by other editors' misconceptions of "what makes an RS" . Problematic enough? It's happening in multiple articles at the same time.

I submit that while Icewhiz's changes may have been swift, his judgment of sources is excellent and should be understood in the context of what I just described: recurring insertions of tendentious non-RS material to multiple articles at a time, with what appears to be an intent to sway an entire topic area towards a particular POV. Taken like this, Icewhiz's edits seem not only beneficial, but efficient. François Robere (talk) 10:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Aside on conduct: I understand Icewhiz's outrage with Poeticbent's comments. The latter seems to have taken an interest in him and in myself, moving from derogatory comments that one admin characterized as " bad faith and shade" , to accusations of "gang attack on a woman" . Needless to say this isn't acceptable. François Robere (talk) 15:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: This seems to fall on whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. This would allow for eg. a published expert who also happens to write a blog, but not someone who only self-published. François Robere (talk) 13:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: Excuse me, but aren't our standards supposed to be higher then "her book is cited a number of times"? Especially in this topic area, where there's no shortage of good sources? And why should the removal of these sources be discussed, rather than their addition? If it's tendentious and poorly sourced, editors shouldn't add it to 50 articles simultaneously. Incidentally, it's the same editors who fought tooth and nail against having Gross, Grabowski, Bauer and other sources of impeccable scholarly reputation who are now pushing these sources every which way. François Robere (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

@Sandstein: A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references What about mass additions? Would a pattern of using low-quality sources to justify contentious claims constitute a "conduct problem"? François Robere (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment by My very best wishes

There is no policy that all references to self-published sources must be automatically removed. According to the policy, Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. The self-published book by this author has been cited in several other books and sources. The author may or may not be notable, but still be an expert. Therefore, I think the removal would need a WP:Consensus in this case. It was done without consensus.My very best wishes (talk) 13:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@François Robere. Her book was cited by others a number of times. Does she qualify as an expert on the subject of Polish people helping Jews during German occupation? This is something debatable. So it needs to be discussed and decided. Blanket removal of references without an appropriate discussion and consensus, even after the objections were raised by another contributor, was grossly inappropriate, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment by Piotrus

Mass removal of sources from dozens of articles in a controversial area should not be done without gaining consensus. I don't understand why there was no RSN discussion about her first, as would seem prudent. I doubt there is anything actionable here (AfD is hardly bad faith, it is totally fine to test the notability some topics through an occasional AfD), however I'd hope in the future Icehwiz will not mass remove sources (SPS or not) in controversial area without RSN discussion first (one, I will add, that should ping, if possible, editors who added said source in to the Wiki in the first place). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment

Much as I may or may not sympathize with perhaps deleting the Anna Poray article (if this is the result of the AfD), I don't think wholesale deletion of 60 Anna Poray refs before her own article has been decided is the best approach, unless perhaps there is strong evidence all 60 refs were insidiously added to the Wiki by one single editor, or a coordinated simultaneous cabal of editors. Absent that, each deletion would have to be well justified by its own merits and for just cause. I am not a fan of eliminating refs willy nilly, and there is usually room to qualify WP:QS in the text or otherwise deprecating such arguments w/o memory holing them. XavierItzm (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman

I’m only tangentially involved in these disputes, but I’m sympathetic to Icewhiz’s position when it comes to obscure / WP:QS sources, having taken part in a number of RSN / TP discussions: RSN: Discussion (Paul; Kurek), as well as here: "only occupied county with death penalty”. In this AE, Anna Poray was referred as a “notable historian”, which is not really the case, when it comes to the definition of ‘historian’ as being “a student or writer of history; especially : one who produces a scholarly synthesis”. The flowery language of “Poray-Wybranowska published a ground-breaking book entitled Those Who Risked Their Lives in 2007" is cited to the book itself.

References

1. Anna Poray (2007). Those who Risked Their Lives (Google Books listing). Anna Poray. ISBN 0979221307. Retrieved 7 October 2013.

Regarding the statement that this book is used in 60 Misplaced Pages articles – my general observation is that, with so much written about the Holocaust in Poland, better sources are surely available and there’s no need for non-peer-reviewed texts from WP:QS publishers. I’ve dealt with a situation in WW2 articles where many pages were citing the pulp writer Franz Kurowski; that’s not necessarily a sign of the reliability of an underlying source. In Poray's case, I would treat the book as a WP:QS source. There has to be a compelling reason to keep such sources in an article. And certainly not in situations when they are listed in "Further reading" or not used for citations. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment by E.M.Gregory

I took a close look at Poray after noticing Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray. She is certainly a WP:FRINGE, revisionist whose work is cited only by an ideologically extreme group of like-minded FRINGE historical revisionists, and by enthusiasts of this sort of invented, partisan history editing Misplaced Pages. It is damaging to the project to mislead our readers by supporting pages with sources/authors of this calibre.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment by E-960

I find the constant push to use rhetoric as very detrimental to the overall discussion on the topic of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray, user E.M.Gregory continues to write that Poray is a WP:FRINGE scholar. But, let me ask you... would the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum list one of Poray's books if she was a FRINGE or REVISIONIST author?? Pls see here: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum - Collections Search - Polish Righteous, those who risked their lives by Anna Poray.. --E-960 (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Follow up comment. If you don't agree with Poray, that's fine, there are many notable scholars who over/under estimate things, but to just keep repeating that Poray is a WP:FRINGE author, is absolutely baseless. What is it about the Second World War or the Holocaust, that Poray got SO wrong to be completely discredited. --E-960 (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Result concerning Icewhiz

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I'll just leave here the idea that the AfD mentioned seems to be populated with a number of people using CAPITAL LETTERS, as ... oddly, do some of the AE reports above this one. Examining the contrib history of some of said editors (not Poeticbent) may be interesting. Just an observation, like ... Black Kite (talk) 00:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• Waiting on icewhiz's response but the two examples above don't appear to be violations of 1RR since Icewhiz appears to have stopped after one revert. --regentspark (comment) 01:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

  I was going to recommend closing this with no action but Sandstein's comment below and Poeticbent's post on sources gives me pause. It appears that Poeticbent doesn't understand what constitutes a reliable source and is then conflating this lack of understanding with the idea that Icewhiz is a biased editor. That's not a good combination. Perhaps a short, timed, topic ban might allow Poeticbent to edit in areas they are less passionate about and gain a better understanding of the how to of Misplaced Pages.--regentspark (comment) 12:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• I would argue that mass removal of a specific named source or academic/historian/whatever of this size should have some type of broader discussion before the removal is acted along, along the lines of WP:FAIT (but same can be said about inserting such a yet-validated source/academic in a mass number of articles for the same reason). That itself in this case I can't say is actionable, but its the type of behavior that doesn't help avoid battlefield behavior in these topic areas. --Masem (t) 04:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, my only concern is that there's a balance between properly following BOLD/BRD to remove some SPS, and doing a mass wipe of them that would evoke issues related to FAIT. Even if the author's sources are all SPSs, the fact they were used across 60 some instances would have me check to see if it was a single editor that added them in the same time period (fully justifying a BRD removal), or if they have been used by many editors over a broad period of time and thus should be discussed better. SPSs are not automatically disqualified as RSes, but they should be reviewed carefully. As I said, on that aspect, there's nothing immediately actionable, but I do express the need for caution when doing such a large "change" even if one feels they are following BRD for that. --Masem (t) 06:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I do agree that per Icewhiz's diffs for Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella, reversion of removal of the sources that Icewhiz at least calls out as SPSs in the edit summary is problematic behavior in an area covered by an AE already. I'd definitely at least trout and caution both of them to restore/revert removal of sources that have been called out as a problem, and just a general call that when issues of a specific author or source are in question, it is generally better for cooperation/minimal disruption to seek consensus first. --Masem (t) 17:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Whether the work by Anna Poray should be used as a source, and for what, is a content issue which AE does not adjudicate. A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references, but the request does not identify any conduct policy violated by this mass removal. The ArbCom principle in WP:FAIT applies only after the mass editor "is apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed", and it is not alleged here that the mass edits continued after such apprisal. Moreover, the removals seem to have been undertaken in good faith based on the opinion that the work is not an appropriate source for Misplaced Pages to cite (which I can prima facie understand, given that it is apparently self-published), and not with disruptive intent. I would therefore take no action here. Sandstein 14:00, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• @François Robere: Mass edits (either removals or additions) can present conduct problems depending on the circumstances, but the hypothetical situation you describe is not before us and does not need to be decided here. Sandstein 17:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
• I've looked more closely at Icewhiz's counterallegations regarding Poeticbent. The charge of misusing SPS isn't something I'd act on, because it's close to a content dispute and it's not realistic to expect admins here to check the reliability of this number of sources; that would need an ArbCom case. But I think that Icewhiz's complaint regarding personal attacks by Poeticbent are actionable; one needs only to look at their most recent edit ("you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general") in addition to Icewhiz's examples to get the impression that this is somebody who operates in full WP:BATTLEGROUND mode. I think that a topic ban from the World War II history of Poland (the apparent topic of this set of disputes) would be appropriate here. Sandstein 20:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Discussion seems to have ceased. Unless admins object, I intend to close this by imposing the abovementioned topic ban against Poeticbent. Sandstein 07:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• E-960, there are 275,377 items in that collection, and at any rate being in a library collection doesn't mean very much. Having read over all this I agree with Sandstein, Masem, and Regentspark. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cassianto

SPECIFICO

Miacek

Meir Frenkin

Waleswatcher

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Waleswatcher

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Waleswatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control :

Discretionary sanctions related to firearms articles. Link to DS warning on user page ]

Talk pages showing DS notice Talk:AR-15_style_rifle

Talk:Colt_AR-15 - This page does not have a DS warning.

Relevant policies, guidelines wp:Disruptive editing, WP:consensus, in particular WP:NOCONSENSUS and wp:forumshop

With respect to disruptive editing,

1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors.

And

4. Does not engage in consensus building:

a. repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits;

b. repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.

And

5. Rejects or ignores community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Disruptive editing via failure to follow WP:BRD

1. Apr 5: The editor’s edits in the firearms space was a BRD failure involving a very significant reordering of the text of the AR-15 style rifle page ] (Apr 5th). I restored the original order which was quickly reverted with a comment that I was the one who needed to get consensus to undo the bold change ]
2. Apr 28: Next edit war use of “assault weapon” ] (28 Apr) during active talk page discussion ]. Re-reverting text to a non-consensus version while the talk page is active isn’t Bold, it’s WP:RECKLESS.
3. May 12: Active discussion regarding the article lead Editor makes wp:reckless change to lead (12 May)]. (18 May)I revert the change. Editor restores ] Back and fourth (myself included) results in 3 day article lock. Talk page discussion still active. 34 hours after lock expires I restored the old stable text per WP:NOCON. Editor reverts claiming the article was stable for a week thus new consensus version.] Actually less than 6 days and the article was locked most of that time. WW's revert was reverted by another editor. ~2 days later WW restored their version claiming consensus based on an optimistic reading of consensus (20 May).] Most recently WW reverted an editor claiming another editor claimed consensus.

there is a consensus as per K.e.coffman above. It is you and other opposed editors that are being disruptive in preventing it from being implemented.]

1. May 12: Adds material to a subsection of the article (12 May, same morning as above BRD failure). ]. I revert. Editor restores without going to talk page]. Finally goes to talk page ] Finally informal survey starts ]. Survey results in 10:10 non-consensus. Editor refuses to accept no consensus. Threatens to make nearly identical changes to article.]

By the way, if we cannot reach a consensus in favor of my version (right now its 11-9 against, so doesn't look promising), I intend to simply copy the lead from AR-15 style rifle into this section, as per WP:SYNC.]

Unless there are actual substantive objections (beyond "that's not the way I want it"), I will go ahead and do that as per WP:SYNC. ]

There's nothing disruptive about that. It would be standard WP:BRD - except that I'm announcing what I'm intending to do (and why) in advance so it can be discussed, which makes it more careful (and less bold) than wiki standard. Now, do you care to comment on substance, or are you going to continue to be tendentious? ]

The editor was cautioned by another editor who generally agreed with Waleswatcher’s editorial POV ]. Acting anyway is WP:TEND

After 20 editors just weighed in on the discussion, editor suggests a new RfC to get their way.

OK, thanks. In that case I'll start an RfC or village pump discussion on this specific question: ]

Anyway, when I get around to it I will take this to a larger audience at the village pump, so there's not much point in continuing to discuss it here now.]

1. May 16: Forumshoping. Against the advice of others an RfC at the Village Pump (not the article page) was created. It immediately closed down as wp:FORUMSHOP and being non-neutral (16 May).,

1. May 14: WP:CIVIL Quoting, thus highlighting a swype error and then refusing to allow a simple correction.] This got admin attention ]. I believe this would be a violation of both Direct Rudeness (d)belittling and by highlighting an erroneous Swype correction and other uncivil behaviors (e)quoting another editor out of context ... to malign them

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see ])

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

User notification ] Springee (talk) 01:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Waleswatcher

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Dlthewave

Point #1 requires context to fully understand. It consists of moving the "Use in crime and mass shootings" section from near the bottom of the article to near the top.

18:06 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher re-ordered sections to reflect importance, general interest, and the content of the lede

18:56 4 April 2018 by Springee Undid revision 834303022 by Waleswatcher (talk) please get consensus first.

20:25 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher Undid revision 834308982 by Springee (talk) "Getting consensus" is not necessary for an edit on wikipedia. Rather, you should get consensus to undo. Please do not start an edit war. Use in crime and mass shootings is obviously more important than the modularity of the rifle, as is born out by the fact that one is discussed in the lede and the other not.)

Please get consensus first - I'm not sure how Waleswatcher was supposed to respond to or discuss this, as Springee didn't raise any objections to the content. Waleswatcher's reply (via edit summary) isn't exactly helpful either, but it certainly doesn't look like Springee was engaging in BRD. This looks more like an attempt to require a talk page proposal before making an edit. –dlthewave ☎ 03:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mr rnddude

I am involved here, and I am also the individual who suggested this venue in preference to AN/I. If you're wondering why the venue move, feel free to do a Ctrl+F search of Archive 983 of AN/I for any one of Waleswatcher, Springee or anybody who has posted a comment at Talk:AR-15 style rifle or Talk:Colt AR-15. There's been a spot of bother, you might notice. I'm also editorially involved over at those two articles ... or rather became involved recently ... because I looked at AN/I.

I'll post a comment here on my observations of Waleswatcher first. There's a couple of things that are obvious to me from them: a) they are a newbie and b) they are engaging in a crusade (whether this is a serious pet issue, or just the result of push back I don't know or care to comment). I have personally stayed out of the actual articles, so will comment only on things said on the talk page.

I'll assume that the newbie comment will confuse some given the ostensible ten years of having an account, so to start, please keep this comment in mind: In my defense, it's not as though wiki policies and guidelines and venues and RfCs and VPPs and ANIs are so easy to navigate.... It flies directly in the face of numerous other comments "educating" the other involved editors on policies and guidelines ranging from consensus to summary style, but it's rather apparently true.

Let me expound on an example:

By the way, if we cannot reach a consensus in favor of my version (right now its 11-9 against, so doesn't look promising), I intend to simply copy the lead from AR-15 style rifle into this section, as per WP:SYNC. Their defence of this was that SYNC cannot be ignored, but they later changed their defence to There's nothing disruptive about that. It would be standard WP:BRD - except that I'm announcing what I'm intending to do (and why) in advance so it can be discussed, which makes it more careful (and less bold) than wiki standard. In the next breath they suggested that I was being tendentious: Now, do you care to comment on substance, or are you going to continue to be tendentious? I highlight all of this to make a simple statement: these are poor readings, understandings, and intended applications of any of the policies cited and also of others not brought up.

I'm also going to point out that they don't understand involved editing, and don't really care to consider the opposition in any detail: e.g. this comment which is, I suggest rather generously, an inadequate summary of the opposition comments. Of course, that is caused by their demands to satisfy, which are both annoying, and non-collaborative. It also results in the erroneous belief that what is actually disruptive editing, is either standard BRD or proper editing etiquette. Indeed, that much can be surmised from dlthewave's third diff which is moving onus onto those who disagree (or dispute).

Waleswatcher has also received a softly worded warning from NeilN for forum shopping for a discussion they started at the village pump. Refer to this thread at Talk:Colt AR-15.

This is a bit jumbled and quickly put together, but it should cover many of the issues that have arisen from Waleswatchers' participation. I'm not going to advocate anything in particular, but will suggest that Waleswatcher needs their course corrected soon (ASAP). I haven't commented on anyone else's behaviour yet, though I might soon enough. There's a couple things that have given me pause, but nothing comparable to the above. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Sandstein would it suffice to point out that multi-party revert wars are a trend on AR-15 style rifle? Oshwah added admin protection to the article on May 13 to expire on May 16 after one set of edit-warring. A small edit-war broke out on May 18: First dispute Special:diff/841832337 and Special:diff/841835054, second dispute Special:diff/841843969, Special:diff/841856554 and Special:diff/841864230. Then the same dispute happened on May 20: Special:diff/842174926, Special:diff/842207275, Special:diff/842221331, Special:diff/842294023, and Special:diff/842364766. That's 10 reverts total, 8 of which are about one set of 938 bytes. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (slaterstven)

Both the filer and the accused have been up before ANI for various issues (in relation to this subject area), I am not sure either party is any more innocent then the other.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Waleswatcher

I have to object to Springee’s notification for this. Last night I saw the alert "you have new messages", but looking at my talk page I didn't see any change, so I discounted it. Looking at my talk page history I now see what happened - Springee deleted their previous comment on my talk page, which was a notification of another complaint that they opened and then closed later, and replaced it with this nearly identical new notice.

The only reason I found this at all is I thought it was odd I was messaged but there was nothing there. Had anyone else posted on my talk page around the same time, I might never have noticed. Rather than deleting content on someone else's talk page, why not leave the old notification, or at least add a note saying what they had done? It's just another example of how Springee interacts with me (and maybe others).

I'll respond at length later. Waleswatcher (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

General comment - in the ten years I have edited wikipedia I have only rarely been involved in contentious pages like these, and I freely admit that I am not very familiar with the dispute resolution process. I think it’s a problem that there is such a complex thicket of guidelines, policies, etc. The resulting wikilawyering creates a formidable barrier for entry and it makes it easy for editors experienced in these venues to force out editors they don’t like. This is probably the wrong venue to discuss that (indicative of the problem - I have no idea what the right venue is) but I thought it was worth mentioning as it’s fully in play in these articles.

Regarding the principles I'm accused of violating:

1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors.

In my experience this describes many editors on these gun-related pages. In particular, it describes Springee. A look at their history shows that they have been "editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors" - where “extended time” is several years in their case. This includes the deletion of reliable sources posted by me and other editors, for instance here, here, and here.

As for me, I’ve been editing these articles since last month. I do in fact hold the opinion that some of these articles should contain more information regarding mass shootings than they certainly do, and there is clearly opposition to that view. When I first started looking at them, I was puzzled by the lack of information in that regard. I'm far from the only one, even the international media has noticed this:

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Russell Brandom (March 6, 2018). "How gun buffs took over Misplaced Pages's AR-15 page". The Verge. Retrieved March 18, 2018. David Brennan (March 7, 2018). "A pro-gun group edited the AR-15 Misplaced Pages page to hide the extent of mass shootings associated with the rifle". Newsweek. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Omer Benjakob (March 18, 2018). "Gun Enthusiasts Are Waging a War of Attrition on Misplaced Pages, and It Looks Like They're Winning". Haaretz. Retrieved March 18, 2018.

Also see this, where Springee is mentioned by name.

Next: 4. Does not engage in consensus building: a. repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits; b. repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits.

I think it was my repeated requests for explanations that were disregarded, not the other way around. I tried to engage and find a compromise version but could hardly get any of the opposed editors to state what their objections were (in fairness, Springee was far from the worst in this). I do admit to feeling pretty frustrated by this attitude. Rather than discuss the content of my edits, their response was to revert because of lack of consensus, and then demand I achieve consensus before restoring the edit. But when trying to achieve consensus, most of the responses were complaints about BRD etc. rather than about the substance of the edit. As a result, every proposed edit devolved into a deadlock.

5. Rejects or ignores community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors.

See above. It seems to me I was the one requesting comments and being ignored.

I’m not going to respond to every specific point as this is already too long. I'll just make a few comments.

Regarding edit warring, note that Springee reverted AR-15 style rifle three times in 24 hours (06:28, May 12, 2018, 13:35, May 12, 2018, and 13:56, May 12, 2018). I am guilty of reverting twice that day. 72bikers brought an ANI complaint against me for those reverts, which was dismissed since it clearly didn't violate 3RR.

Regarding the forum shopping/VPP incident, I believed that the issue I (tried to) raise on VPP was sufficiently different that it merited a new discussion. The discussion on the talk page was regarding specific text I proposed to add to Colt AR-15#AR-15 style rifle, while on VPP the proposal was that that section be permanently WP:SYNCed to the lead of AR-15 style rifle, regardless of what was there or if it changed later. I thought (and still think) that would be a mechanism to help cut down on these disputes, since at least they could focus on AR-15 style rifle rather than both articles. I should have proposed that first, rather than proceeding as I did. I acknowledge I made a mess there, and I already apologized (and do so again now - I handled that incorrectly, sorry about that).

Regarding my “threats” to edit here: I said what I intended to do on the talk page (which was different from what we had been discussing, or at least I thought so - see above). I got a lot of opposition, I listened to it, and as a result I never made the edit.

Regarding the typo, Springee edited both their comment and my response. Editing my comment (and theirs after it was responded to) is a clear (if minor) violation of wiki's talk page guidelines WP:TPO (where it says "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.", bold in the original). It annoyed me because I did not recognize that it was a typo when I responded (“clear lake of support” read as a rather poetic if non-standard phrase, and I was in a rush). Their edit changed the flavor of my response and I didn't like that, so I reverted. Their next edit showed as a revert of my revert, so I reverted that too and put a warning regarding WP:TPO on Springee's user page (by the way I don’t think this is a big deal; I'm responding only because Springee raised the issue). Waleswatcher (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

One other comment: I did reach out to two admins for help on this here and here. Neither responded - which is totally understandable for any number of reasons, I'm not blaming them, just pointing out that I asked for guidance in how to handle these disputes before it came to this. Waleswatcher (talk) 14:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Waleswatcher

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• This is an underwhelming report. WP:BRD is not a community-adopted conduct policy or guideline and therefore, in my view, not something we can enforce here. The "lake"/"lack" issue is a minor matter that doesn't require arbitration enforcement. Unless this report is rewritten to indicate clearly which, if any, actual conduct guidelines or policies are violated, i wouldn't take action here. Sandstein 07:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Factchecker atyourservice

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Factchecker atyourservice

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Casprings (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Factchecker atyourservice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBAPDS:

1. 21 May 2018 Archived discussion that shows: 1. Lack of decorum to other editors by calling editors liars, etc. 2. Violation of an IBAN with User:BullRangifer 3. WP:BATTLEGROUND
2. 28 April 2018 Archived discussion that shows: First attempt to insert POV. Comments like, "his response simply shows you're not paying attention", shows lack of respect for other editors. Moreover, does not take constructive advice from other editors. For example, one editor suggested: "I strongly suggest you revert everything you've added and break it down into smaller homogeneous units that can be discussed in an orderly way."
3. 28 April 2018 Archived discussion. 1. Comments like, "Either say why it is incorrect or unfruitful or shut your incorrect, unfruitful mouth." show lack of decorum. 2. Continued WP:BATTLEGROUND
4. "no_public_evidence" 17 May 2018 Archived discussion. 1. Continued effort to push POV 2. Continued WP:BATTLEGROUND ; Note comments like, "What's embarrassing is the apparently emotional attachment to the idea of Trump guilt". 3.Misplaced Pages:Forumshopping. RFC does not seem to be coming to the editors preferred consensus so the editor starts another section to make the same point. Note: Section will not directly link, but discussion is under section titled, "Latest New York Times report confirming "no public evidence"
5. 15 May 2018 Archived discussion. 1.Uncivil attitude with an admin. 2. Lack of respect for other editors.
6. 3 May 2018 Archived discussion. 1.Uncivil attitude with an admin. 2. Lack of respect for other editors.

1. May 22 IBAN violation.

Note on Evidence: Because the behavior is mainly involving behavior on talk pages that are long and require context, I am linking achieved discussion per "You may also link to an archived version of long discussions". Diffs would lack context and be too many.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 3 May 2018 IBAN ban with BullRangifer.
2. 15 May 2018 31 hour block.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 3 May 2018 by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This posting made after this discussion was closed as "No consensus here, remit to AE."

• @Sandstein: I feel your pain. But less time for you to read it then me to put that together. If admins want diffs to evaluate, the template's instructions should be changed. However, you wouldn't get this and other valid complaints. Casprings (talk) 10:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• @GoldenRing: Another way to state camp 2 and 3 is, people who agree with the community consensus and people who disagree. We have tools to get community consensus and they should be used. However, to say that people in group "2", "have no choice", is to suggest that those editors have no agency. You could just accept the reality that the community disagrees with your content choice and move on. Casprings (talk) 10:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :

Discussion concerning Factchecker atyourservice

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Factchecker_atyourservice

Comment: OP refers to efforts to "insert POV" and "push POV" but does not actually claim I attempted to violate NPOV, DUE, etc.

Is he just saying I argued a lot?

Also, the "forum shopping" accusation under item #4 does not mention that it was a separate proposal amounting to a proposal for single quoted sentence from New York Times that was dramatically different than my previous proposal which was 30kb of in-depth coverage (see hatted section). I don't see how making a very different proposal to the same editors on the same talk page, in the face of a stalled RFC, amounted to "forum shopping". Factchecker_atyourservice 03:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by power~enwiki

To repeat my statement in the WP:AN thread: I see no reason why FCAYS should not be sanctioned, but several other editors in the area (on both sides of the aisle) should also be sanctioned at the same time. I am somewhat involved and don't have time right now to provide diffs at this point to request sanctions against specific editors, but can do so if requested. power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

As a separate suggestion, I continue to believe that full-protection of Trump–Russia dossier may minimize disruption in the American Politics area. I concede it is unlikely that will happen, and the past 2 weeks have been quiet enough to not need it (though it's WP:CRYSTAL as to whether that will continue). power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (slatersteven)

Firstly it is hard to provide diffs of everything as there are about three or four places where the same issue is being hashed over by him. Also many of the threads are very long and convoluted, with random changes of emphasis (not to be fair by him, all the time). (in fact it may be even more , 2 months this has been going on for). I have no idea when they first raised this issue. , second (somewhat modified) but still the same matter raised. third time (slightly re-worded and throwing in other issues as well). Note all three are running at once.

Then we have PA's and commenting on other users , not "Here is what I disagree with", not a PA but hardly constructive followed by this edit summery . . I Will leave it to others (for now) to provide diffs for any other offenses, this has taken enough time to dig this lot out. As I said, two moths and hundreds of posts.Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

As to me being combative, possibly I have been. But when you have the same issue being raised multiple times, when you have insults thrown at you and when you have constant strawmaning by multiple users when ever you raise an objection (and are the told you are the problem for the derailing) it is hard to see past that behavior and try and comprise (which by the way I did, but I admit it could have been better worded, frustration is a terrible thing), as I think I said in one post "what are we actually discussing here"), it is hard to compromise when you have a user who says "facts is facts".Slatersteven (talk) 09:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

There is massive frustration at the amount of time that has been wasted on this, and (frankly) it seems to me that a wider ban will just (in effect) reward (what looks like) deliberate obstreperousness and tendentious editing whose purpose was to bludgeon through a POV by wearing down the opposition with constant argument.Slatersteven (talk) 10:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Netoholic

GoldenRing's idea has merit - a limited ban of Trump topics is the only thing on the table within the scope of this AE. A lot of the resistance to handling any single one of the users he mentions is the desire not to appear one-sided when there are multiple users with long-term BATTLEGROUND, NOTFORUM, or other behaviors. There seem to be three scenarios that really notch up drama: 1) boredom (few new updates turns to silliness on the talk page), 2) feelings of being cornered (as when there one person is outnumbered), and 3) pack mentality (taking advantage when you're in the group which has the numbers). I think people in the (1) and (3) camps should be the first excused from an article when trouble arises. Someone in the (2) position can't really help it, and we haven't really seen how they behave outside of the taunts or just general deluge of comments from the (3)'s or the antics of the (1)'s. Also, its better for article quality to keep a wide variety of viewpoints participating. In my read of the above, FCAYS seems to be in the (2) camp. In my recent report of SPECIFICO, I reviewed his edits over the last month and I found him solidly in (1) and (3). I'll leave it to more involved people to decide where they others fall. -- Netoholic @ 09:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

To editor Casprings: - WP:CONSENSUS is "an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns" - its a process, not a state of being. And a key word there is "effort" which is part of your responsibility as well as his. You need, at all times, to try and make that effort. But when instead you instruct people to "just accept the reality that the community disagrees with your content choice and move on" you aren't incorporating their concerns, you're dismissing them out-of-hand and telling them to buzz off. That is pack mentality talk. That's chasing people out of your territory. You're not making the effort. --Netoholic @ 11:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by JFG

I am moderately involved at Trump–Russia dossier, but was on wikibreak while most of the drama unfolded. This article has been a "work of love" by BullRangifer, who set out a few months ago to document every allegation and reaction in excruciating detail. His previous attempt at creating a standalone article List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations (created on 22 January 2018) was eventually merged back to Trump–Russia dossier on 2 March (see merge discussion). Since then, the dossier article has grown to encompass a lot of extraneous information, close to being an indictment of Trump, his campaign and cited people in wikivoice. My main contributions to the article consisted of trimming down the list of allegations into manageable paraphrase, in order to avoid copyvios. When Factchecker came onto the scene, he tried to insert some mitigating information showing the other side of the coin (namely, that no collusion was found yet), and was repeatedly antagonized by BullRangifer and other editors. The "cage match" between BR and FC eventually led to the IBAN by NeilN. Given that BR is the main contributor and "defender" of the dossier article, this IBAN actually prevented FC from discussing content there (as he could not reply to BR without violating the IBAN), so that the IBAN in effect amounted to a TBAN on this subject.

The drama and battleground reported here are mostly localized to this particular article, and I am sympathetic to GoldenRing's idea of imposing restricted TBANs on some of the most vocal editors. I would oppose wider restrictions, be they for FC, BR or other involved editors at this article. I would also remind BR of our WP:OWNERSHIP policy to prevent recurrence of similar issues. While I have managed to edit constructively with BR even when we disagreed, he does have a tendency to only "allow" content that fits his own view of the world. He also tends to dismiss fellow editors as "Trump apologists" unworthy of contributing to the encyclopedia (see his essay User:BullRangifer/Trump supporters, fake news, and unreliable sources), and that attitude taints his judgment when confronted with editing disputes. For example, FC has presented content backed by very reliable sources such as The New York Times, only to be rebuffed as if he had cited some fringe publications. Such behavior understandably angered him.

Statement by SPECIFICO

I urge the Admins to shut down any discussion of broadening this complaint into a festival of Whataboutism and deflection. If broad consideration of the entire topic area or dozens of editors' conduct is to be done, that should happen at an Arbcom AP3 case. AE is where we give straightforward documentation of DS violations. Casprings has attempted to do that and this thread will deteriorate into an ANI-like tangle if we don't stay on topic. Any participant who has specific concerns about other editors can by all means file separate complaints. Also, I think it's clear that the Admins can see that the same editors who tend to align with Factchecker in his content disputes now present theories of why this complaint should be recast into some entirely different and impossibly broad issue unsuited to this forum. SPECIFICO talk 13:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Galobtter

A quick comment, Trump–Russia_dossier has 9000 not 19000 words, (19000 would be ridiculous while 9000 is within reasonable limits) and there is a lot of coverage about this, so I wouldn't call it a blatant violation of NOTEVERYTHING; though I looked through it and it does need to be cut down. But all this is offtopic I think. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Ernie

I would encourage uninvolved editors and admins to simply read the Trump-Russia dossier article. Among many issues, the article just really isn't a piece of quality work, and is way too long. I wonder if admins or Arbcom could delete the article per TNT and request a group of experienced, uninvolved editors to research the issue and write a new article. This was requested numerous times for the Gamergate article, but was not followed. Allowing entrenched editors to stay on a topic does not lead to good articles. The AmPol topic currently has nearly the same conditions as Gamergate - two distinct sides, neither willing or able to meet in the middle (disclosure - I am on one of these sides). On the path we are on right now this topic area will continue to bleed off editors via sanctions until one of the "sides" has more survivors. There are a few editors who have proven to be able to successfully collaborate in this area, but they do not number very high. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I've just noticed NeilN's proposal below, and it is somewhat similar to what I proposed. I believe this approach should be tried before more sanctions are handed out. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Atsme

I am dismayed to see that Casprings filed this case but not surprised - he opposed the material Factchecker proposed. He first tried to eliminate his opposition over at AN. My apologies if I've misunderstood, but I'm hard pressed to see it any other way based on what I've seen unfold at the Trump articles. We are dealing with a highly controversial topic; one that has created division, not just on WP, but around the world. We have editors editing Trump articles who have proudly displayed their political affiliations and animosity toward Trump on their user pages, all the while denying partisanship or bias when editing. Having been in the foxhole deflecting direct fire in the form of condescension and derogatory comments that totally misrepresent things I've said, I am not convinced that some editors are able to leave their biases at login, so yes, I sympathize with Factchecker, although he does tend to be far more verbose than I. To the admins who have to deal with this time sink, I extend my utmost respect - you damn well deserve it - but don't expect me to name names because I've reached the point where it's best to just stop arguing and let them be wrong, especially when things are going nowhere fast. We are all forced to work under DS with very tight restrictions - we all know consensus is needed when material is challenged and we have also learned that any material attempting to bring proper WEIGHT & BALANCE to any of the anti-Trump coatracks will be challenged. Ironically, any editor who does their best to work within the DS restrictions in order to present a common sense proposal citing diffs to high quality sources as what Factchecker has done will be challenged, and either obliquely goaded or outright bludgeoned and denigrated by the opposition. It has become the norm and if admins would reflect back on all the editors who have been brought here because of DS vios, it's pretty obvious who is and isn't gaming the system. The opposition simply doesn't want opposition, and that is what this case is truly about - it has little to nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with content, and that's why admins are not seeing any diffs to support the complaints. Just read the comments in the following 2 sections and you'll see what Factchecker and other editors who are trying to get the article right are having to deal with on a regular basis:

• Talk:Trump–Russia_dossier#Latest_New_York_Times_report_confirming_"no_public_evidence" <--- the proposal that spawned the AN filing and now this AE;
• Talk:Trump–Russia_dossier#Lead_sentence:_There_is_"a_great_deal_of_public_evidence_of_ties_between_the_Trump_campaign_and_Russian_actors."_based_on_Jan._2017_article, which is a continuation because of all the stonewalling and fallacious arguments to refuse inclusion.

Please keep in mind that Factchecker's iBan does not include article talk pages or threads on admin boards or admin talk pages where BullRangifer's edits or behavior are specifically being discussed. I'm not seeing anything that indicates he violated the iBan despite the accusations. 13:57, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Goldenring - before you propose a TBan for me, you need to provide some diffs that warrant such an action. I am truly disheartened that you would even suggest it. 14:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Factchecker atyourservice

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Maybe I'm just lazy, but I do need diffs to evaluate. I'm not reading pages and pages of discussions. Other admins may see this differently. Sandstein 07:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Generally speaking, I agree with NeilN below that no AE actions should be made based on an admin's opinion about whether the article is too long or not; that is definitively a content issue outside the scope of AE. Sandstein 14:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• Based on Slatersteven's diffs ("Are you nuts?" etc.), there does seem to be at least a prima facie case for sanctions against Factchecker atyourservice for battleground-like conduct, but I'd prefer more diffs to be able to determine whether this is a longterm pattern of conduct. As to the other editors mentioned by GoldenRing below, I have no opinion because of a lack of diffs. Sandstein 14:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I've read most of Talk:Trump–Russia dossier. I agree that Factchecker atyourservice has been a bludgeoning influence on this page and also a couple of other threads I've seen around. I'd suggest that they take at least six months off AP2 (ie a tban).The IBAN between Factchecker atyourservice and BullRangifer seems to me overly complicated and I'd like to hear NeilN's reasons for not just imposing a normal IBAN, either one-way or two-way. At this point, I'd like to consider converting it to a normal two-way IBAN.I agree with power~enwiki that some others could use a break from the Trump-Russia dossier, though I'm less convinced a wider ban is warranted in these cases; I'm thinking of BullRangifer, Slatersteven, Atsme, and SPECIFICO, who I think have all been unnecessarily combative on that talk page (though I realise that most of SPECIFICO's involvement has been reviewed here already) and also Phmoreno, who seems to consider the talk page a forum for spreading rumours. Topic bans for at least this article, and possibly anything related to Donald Trump, seem to be in order.I think that indefinite full protection of the article, as half-suggested by power~enwiki, is also a tempting possibility worth considering, but the problem is, protected in what state? As it stands, it's 19,000 words which probably ought to be cut down to a few paragraphs (seriously, the article has considerably more detail on some of the people involved than their own biography articles do), but I can't quite see how the process of doing that would work without admins basically dictating the content (not somewhere I want to go). WP:TNT is another possibility, though it would have to be done in concert with the topic bans discussed above to prevent the same train wreck happening again. GoldenRing (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: As the main accusation in the complaint one of the main problems is bludgeoning, I can see the difficulty in presenting it in a few diffs. GoldenRing (talk) 08:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• I've also dropped short notifications of this discussion to the editors I've named above. GoldenRing (talk) 08:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
• @Casprings: I think you pinged the wrong person. GoldenRing (talk) 10:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• @GoldenRing: It's not particularly complicated. The two editors can still interact on talk pages but Factchecker atyourservice was constantly complaining about, pinging, and posting on BullRangifer's talk page despite being told not to. If they want BullRangifer's sanctioned then they need to bring it to an appropriate venue. Also, given you have expressed an opinion on content strongly favoring one side ("it's 19,000 words which probably ought to be cut down to a few paragraphs", "WP:TNT is another possibility") I would ask that you not take any AE actions with respect to the article. --NeilN 13:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• @NeilN: My point re the IBAN is that their interactions, at least on that page, are still not great, and I'm not convinced it's one-sided. But you're obviously much more familiar with the situation; do you think a two-way IBAN would be a bad thing?My point re the article itself is that the coverage therein seems to me to be such an obvious violation of WP:NOTEVERYTHING and so thoroughly unencyclopaedic that any action that preserves the status quo would be counter-productive; I don't see that as a content opinion but as a policy opinion. That said, I'm not about to wade in here and act without trying to build some sort of consensus for the action. GoldenRing (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• @GoldenRing: I have no objection if you make it a two-way IBAN outside of article/article talk space. I would strongly object if admins try to dictate content. If admin AE action is necessary, ask the sides to prepare two versions, hold a community RFC as to which version best meets policies and guidelines, and be done with it. The consensus required provision should be able to control the future direction of the article. --NeilN 13:35, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• I have several other thoughts on the larger problem, which, as suggested above, are better suited for a very likely AP3 case as it involves many more editors and larger selection of articles (or as NeilN and GoldenRing speak above, an admin-enforced solution). If we limit it just to FCAYS, while many of the talk page diffs are questionable, and I've seen a lot worse language used by others that have failed to merit any type of enforcement remedy, so it's hard to work on that. There's clearly WP:TE from FCAYS happening, and barring any AE action taken here, I would strongly recommend a voluntary break from the topic area, and work on other non-AP2-related topics (I speak to experience on this in relationship to GG). But we do have a clear IBAN violation that was placed in the AP2 topic area, and this warrants a short term (3-6 month) TBAN from the AP2 area simply to get them away from any likely interaction with BullRangifer, which would equivalently help with the TE aspects. --Masem (t) 14:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press