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talk:Criteria for speedy deletion - Misplaced Pages

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Read this before proposing new criteria

Contributors frequently propose new criteria for speedy deletion. If you have a proposal to offer, please keep a few guidelines in mind:

  1. The criterion should be objective: an article that a reasonable person judges as fitting or not fitting the criterion should be similarly judged by other reasonable people. Often this requires making the rule very specific. An example of an unacceptably subjective criterion might be "an article about something unimportant."
  2. The criterion should be uncontestable: it should be the case that almost all articles that can be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. If a rule paves the path for deletions that will cause controversy, it probably needs to be restricted. In particular, don't propose a CSD in order to overrule keep votes that might otherwise occur in AfD. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded.
  3. The criterion should arise frequently: speedy deletion was created as a means of decreasing load on other deletion methods such as Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion and Misplaced Pages:Proposed deletion. But these other methods are often more effective because they treat articles on a case-by-case basis and incorporate many viewpoints; CSD exchanges these advantages for the practical goal of expeditious, lightweight cleanup. If a situation arises rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and more fair to delete it via one of these other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible.
  4. The criterion should be nonredundant: if an admin can accomplish the deletion using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. Only if a new rule covers articles that cannot be speedy deleted otherwise should it be considered.

If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.

Oft referenced pages
Archive
Archives

U3 (galleries in userspace)

I'm slightly confused by this. Technically, this can be circumvented by someone having a list of images that they want to view as a gallery (even maintaining it off-wiki), and then, when they want to view the gallery (usually for maintenance purposes, eg. how good is the coverage in this particular area, can we use these images in a better way, etc), the user can temporarily stick the list up in the correct format, with the gallery tags around them. And then remove it again after a few hours, when the work is completed. Is this acceptable? I assume that U3 is aimed at permanent galleries, but even in the case where gallerisation is undone, the gallery version will still be available in the page history, so a user could save a page with a link to that version, and they could then look at the gallery whenever they wanted. An example of this, not in userspace, but in a WikiProject, is at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Images. I would guess other WikiProjects have similar pages. The one that usually springs to mind is Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Harry_Potter/Images. Carcharoth 22:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I realise that. What I am talking about (and I wasn't very clear, admittedly), is the temporary use of Misplaced Pages to produce a gallery of fair use images for selection purposes (think of it like spreading out a set of photos on a table to pick the one you want to use). ie. To compare a range of potentially fair use images and select the one to use for a particular article. Actually, the selection criteria should probably be based more on which one is the "fairest" use, I guess, if that makes any sense (with the obligatory disclaimer of no free images being available). I was also making the point that galleries can be 'hidden' in a page history, and thus anyone who has the link to that version of the page, effectively has this gallery available to look at whenever they want. But with so many other skeletons rattling around in page histories, I guess this is not a major problem. Carcharoth 21:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • True, but that selection process does not appear to be the main usage of userspace galleries. If individual history items become really problematic, we can oversight them. >Radiant< 09:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Dave Abrahams

Why is there a template by that name in Category:Speedy deletion templates ? --ArmadilloFromHell 06:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not there now. Seems to have been some kind of error. -GTBacchus 06:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Very strange, it was for sure there yesterday and I refreshed the page at the time. --ArmadilloFromHell 02:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A7: Websites or web content?

This edit "simplified" blogs, podcasts, webcomic, etc. to "website", which could be seen as more restrictive (I'm thinking of, for example, non-notable videos that exist on sites like YouTube and that occasionally are promoted improperly here). A quick glance of this page and recent archives doesn't turn up discussion of this change, and {{db-web}} still reflects the more expansive version. So I'm guessing that the restriction from "web content" to "website" wasn't fully intended. Am I missing something? — TKD::Talk 06:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh A6, where art thou?

From Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons: Remove unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material

"Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and controversial in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see WP:CSD criterion A6)."

A small fix seems to be in order. Brimba 18:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it over there, it now points to G10. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Please excuse me for a moment while I engage in utterly useless pedantry, to no real purpose other than my own self-amusement.

The word "wherefore" actually means "why", not "where". "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" is actually asking "Why are you a Montague, and not some schmoe my family isn't feuding with?" Wiktionary tells the tale.

Having said that, I use the word "wherefore" as a synonym for "where" with alarming frequency myself.

Anyhow, now you know. And knowing is some fraction of the battle. Go Joe.

We return you now to your regularly scheduled policy talk page.

All the best,
Ξxtreme Unction
22:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It is gratifying to see that I am not the only pedantic dork editing this subsection.  ;-)


I see that even when you leave the Barrens, you never REALLY leave the Barrens. Kind of a touch the devil type of thing. Brimba 22:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I stand corrected. Must resist the pedantry... Carcharoth 23:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify - CSD U1

User talk pages aren't speediable per CSD U1, right? I'm seeing this a lot lately (and I always decline the deletion), but maybe I'm wrong? Perhaps the language needs to be clarified. -- Merope 13:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It depends. The foundation does recognize a limited right to vanish. On the other hand, if the user's talk page includes extensive documentation of vandalism warnings, we almost always perserve those as evidence. Even blanking those pages can be considered abusive. Can you give some specific examples that you found problematic? Rossami (talk) 13:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I'm all about right to vanish, but I don't think these are associated with that. Here are a few ones I've noticed: User talk:Mihai cartoaje, User talk:138.130.165.178... uh, I'm sure there are more but it's hard for me to dig through my contributions. I'm discounting db tags left by users other than the owner of the talk page, which comes up more frequently. -- Merope 14:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I would never delete (or even wipe) an anon page. If the user is upset by the comments left there, tell him/her to create an ID and sign in. They'll never need to see the comments on the anon page again. In fact, it says just that in the default text at the top of every anon talk page.
User:Mihai cartoaje is a more difficult case. I can find no evidence that the user intends to leave the project. The user also added an apparent death threat at the top of his/her own page, making me suspicious of the user's commitment to the project. If the user wants to turn over a new leaf, I'd recommend allowing him/her to archive the page into page history (that is, blank the page but do so with an explicit "archiving" comment so that others can find the old comments if necessary). There is, however, no easy answer. Just use your best judgment and continue to ask for help from other experienced editors when appropriate. Thanks for your help patroling these requests. Rossami (talk) 16:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Kent class cruiser/Temp

Hello. A quick question. Kent class cruiser/Temp has already been suggested for speedy deletion, but was changed to a merge and later a redirect. However, I really doubt anyone would ever type that in a search box, and the history content is made of mostly clean up stuff. Could the article be deleted under G6? I kind of don't like having that article in my watchlist, appearing from time to time. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 00:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Centrx→talk • 00:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
And now undone. No, that did not qualify under the "housekeeping" criterion. We have an obligation to track all the attribution of all contributions under the conditions of GFDL. You may consider all those changes to be "mostly clean up stuff" and I may even agree with that judgment call but that does not relieve Misplaced Pages from the obligations of GFDL. Making the judgment call about whether those obligations have been met is beyond the scope of CSD.
Redirects are cheap. This particular redirect does no apparent harm. If there is a pattern of abuse, the redirect can be protected but I see no such pattern since the page was turned into a redirect. Rossami (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the temp page was never merged, its information is redundant, and it shows up as the first result for a search for "Kent cruiser". —Centrx→talk • 16:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering, with that kind of thought, WP:AFD is completely illegal. -- ReyBrujo 21:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Inappropriate content can be deleted. It is content that is retained that must be fully attributable under the GFDL. But that is also problematic, as people often do cut-and-paste copying without thinking about the consequences. An interesting exercise is to sit down with an article like Human and try and work out who contributed which bit. Sometimes a piece of text that appears to have been contributed by User Y, was in fact written by User X in another article, and copied and pasted into the article by User Y. Technically GFDL has been satisfied for User Y, but GFDL has not been satisfied for User X. User X's writing has been mercilesly edited and redistributed, but the attribution to User X has been lost. Happens a lot, unfortunately. Carcharoth 00:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
According to a comment on the temp page's edit history (edit summary on 14 Oct), the contents were merged. I have no reason to distrust that comment but if you have evidence to the contrary, that could change things. As to whether this line of logic makes the AFD process illegal, I mostly disagree. The presumption of AFD is that the content is irredeemable and that presumably it would not have been moved to or used in any other article before deletion. As Carcharoth says, some may fall through the cracks but we try not to let that happen. If we discover a situation where that did happen, there is a process to allow a history-only undeletion to satisfy the requirements of GFDL. Rossami (talk) 04:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Quick reference (I8 & I9)

The quick reference at CAT:CSD lists "I8: Attack Images" and "I9: Identical on Commons" while there is no longer an I9 at here. We should probably change one or the other so they coincide. Why didn't we leave I8 as (This criterion has been superseded by G10 and is kept for historical reasons.) and keep I9 at I9, as we did with A6? Hope this makes sense, DVD+ R/W 00:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer templates

WP:NDT says, "When spotted, such templates tend to be speedily deleted because they're similar to templates we've debated and deleted in the past." However, the only thing CSD says about templates is, "divisive and inflammatory". Are disclaimer templates considered divisive and inflammatory? If so, perhaps that could be clarified. Otherwise, maybe "disclaimer template" should be added to CSD. I realize that NDT is merely a guideline, but it seems silly to go through a prod or TfD discussion when the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Nevertheless, I don't feel comfortable adding db to Template:Warning Upsetting without a clear CSD. Am I being overly cautious? The only argument I can think of against adding "disclaimer template" as a CSD is that it may not be obvious whether a given template is a disclaimer template, and that strikes me as unlikely. Xtifr tälk 04:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a broad application of CSD:G4. Non-ideal, but we'll live with it I suspect. Stifle (talk) 13:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Of course! I didn't even think of searching through the general criteria for one that might apply. I feel very silly now. Thanks! :) Xtifr tälk 06:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I7

Can a better example be provided for I7 please? It's not clear enough to me what is covered by it. Thanks. jd || talk || 21:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

G12: 48 hour requirement eliminated?

Confirm this for me, folks. Has it been eliminated? - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I tracked the change to this edit by Jimbo Wales. Not sure why the 48-hour requirement was eliminated here, as the reasoning is pretty clear that this 48 hour requirement is needed to avoid the following: (1) Misplaced Pages article is created; (2) Some time later (usually more than 48 hours) a random website copies Misplaced Pages article without permission and claims copyright on it; (3) Someone notices that the Misplaced Pages article and the website have the same text and assumes that someone copied the website into Misplaced Pages and slaps a "copyvio" notice on the Misplaced Pages page; (4) A genuine Misplaced Pages article gets speedy deleted by an admin who doesn't bother to investigate.
I think this is why the 48-hour requirement was added. In cases where more than 48 hours have elapsed, a more thorough investigation is needed by the admin who tries to sort out what is going on. I know some people will be reluctant to change things here, but I think this change should have been explained before being implemented. Does anyone know the best way to get a response from Jimbo Wales about this? Carcharoth 00:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
That's a serious diff! Thanks. I asked Jimbo to clarify. - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Basically, we must tag articles with {{db-copyvio}} instead of sending them to Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems. That kind of makes sense, at least for me. CP usually has an important backlog. -- ReyBrujo 01:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
So can we be sure that all the admins cleaning up the CSD categories, or any future admin who joins in, is aware of the possibility that you need to assess a copyvio and not just hit "delete" without thinking after someone else tags it as "blatant copyvio"? And are all those admins aware that copying can occur both ways? I realise that some articles really are blatant copyvios, but people have to realise that "blatant" does not mean "identical text". It means that the style is different to that of Misplaced Pages, and the Misplaced Pages article usually hasn't been wikified. The key is to look at the website and think: "does that look like a copy of a Misplaced Pages article?" I'd be happy if that proviso was added to G12. Carcharoth 10:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't get this argument entirely. If someone copies and pastes an article from Encyclopedia Brittanica, adds a few wikilinks (wikifying it), then it's no longer a blatent copyvio? An admin closing a huge backlog from the copyright problems list is more able to assess whether something's a copyvio than an admin doing CSD? I don't doubt that admins make some mistakes, but that's inherent in any system and we should just deal with the mistakes as they happen, since the only way to truly avoid mistakes is to not delete copyvios at all. Which obviously is not a good idea. --W.marsh 12:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I did say "usually hasn't been wikified" (emphasis added). And I am talking about the need to assess the website the Misplaced Pages article has supposedly been copied from. If it is something like EB, then obviously it is extremely unlikely that they copied us. But the "blatent" bit needs a logical step of "did we copy them, or did they copy us". That is the key point which needs to be put in. Ignore what I said about wikilinks. You are right, that distracts from the key point. Carcharoth 20:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree, in as much as admins shouldn't just delete blindly because the text in the Misplaced Pages article exists on some other random server. Admins should always check to make sure it's not actually the other server that's copying from Misplaced Pages. --W.marsh 22:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
It's worth adding something to the criteria to tell admins to pay particular attemption to the possibility that the Misplaced Pages article and the other one may be identical but the original is the Misplaced Pages one. I'd also add enforcing pasting the url of the other article in the delete summary, so that known mirrors can be easily spotted. Tizio, Caio, Sempronio 13:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added something about copyvio working both ways. I agree that pasting the URL in the delete summary is a good idea, but I'll leave you to put that in, as that might be more controversial (trying to enforce correct use of edit summaries is a bit of a nightmare). Carcharoth 20:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually did ask Jimbo about the 48-hour issue; my understanding was that the 48-hour part of the rule was to prevent mirrors from being mistaken for a copyvio source. His response was interesting: basically, that we should stop worrying so much about deleting stuff that could remain, because it should be no big deal. Better to err on the side of deletion when dealing with copyvios; mistakes can always be undone. Here's the diff: . Mangojuice 04:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't realise the 48-hour thing and the "maybe they copied it from us" thing were different. The 'undeletion is always possible' is fine, as long as people remember that this requires someone to actually review the deletions. I suspect that many deletions never get looked at again, as only a small pool of Misplaced Pages readers (admins) can actually see deleted content. And the point about putting an URL in the deletion summary to allow checking of the website, is a very important one. Makes it easier for those people who do double-check such deletions. And I might as well ask here a question I asked somewhere else: is there a list of all deletions performed? I know there is the deletion log, but can anyone put an overall figure to the total number of pages ever deleted, and how many stay deleted, and how many are deleted for a specific reason? (ie. how many as patent nonsense, how many as copyvios, etc.) I understand that pages can be recreated, but unless people remember to check the deletion log before creating a page, I don't think it is obvious when you are recreating something. Carcharoth 10:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This diff expanded G12 in a number of very serious ways that makes it no longer objective and prone to error. Why would the author have provided a statement of permission or fair use if no one has asked them to? Our existing processes give authors a chance to defend the source of the article content, and have often caught cases that were not actually copyvios - Deletion Review is not sufficient to deal with articles created by inexperienced users who don't know where their article disappeared to. As long as we have OCILLA there is no pressing need to delete these as quickly as possible. I strongly oppose this change. Deco 17:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As long as the creator is notified, they are able to establish that they have permission to use the text, which will be restored. Only, in the mean time, the article will not be a likely copyright infringement sitting on the public site. —Centrx→talk • 18:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the larger question is whether we want to err on the side of including copyvios/plagiarism, or on deleting stuff people actually had the right to copy and paste. Both are correctable, but I think the former does a lot more damage to our quality and reputation. --W.marsh 18:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Deletion templates

Shouldn't this be transcluded onto the page so that users and admins can easily place it on their user pages for quick reference? Like, Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion/Templates or Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion/Deletion templates? Cbrown1023 20:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and change it. Cbrown1023 20:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

my recent G12 change

I just changed:

The page does not have substantial edits by multiple users and there are no non-infringing revisions in the page history worth saving.

to

The page does not have substantial non-copyvio content in the page history worth saving.

The earlier verstion seemed a bit vague, and could be taken to mean that if a copyvio has been rewritten a bit, maybe moved around, wikified, a typo fixed, that it's not a copyvio anymore. Copyvio content should be purged from the page history if possible. However, with pre-existing or older articles, usually what was copy and pasted has had new introductions added, and otherwise substantial new content written around it. So rather than delete the whole thing, I think we need to clarify that practice is to delete the copyvio but leave the rest, if it can stand on its own as an article (even if it's just a short stub).

If nothing else, I think the new wording is more clear but still has the same meaning. --W.marsh 22:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this should be that no previous version meets any of the csd (including g12 but not limited to). But changing in that sense would probably be too pedantic. Tizio, Caio, Sempronio 10:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of it was to prevent the deletion of articles that were created organically on the wiki. Also, substantial is too vague a word in relation to "content" and many articles are going to get deleted when a revert would be more appropriate. —Centrx→talk • 17:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

So, if the parameter is to be "exactly what is meant" then it would be something like "the article was clearly not created organically on the wiki" and if the parameter is to be "what they should be checking" then the multiple users is good, and perhaps even more specific instructions. Many admins really have no idea how to check a page. —Centrx→talk • 17:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you're talking about. Your recent edit to what I was working on looks good, removing redundancy and all, but the added rule "The infringement was introduced at once by a single person; it was not developed organically on wiki and then copied by another website such as one of the many Misplaced Pages mirrors." seems like instruction creep. If it's a copyvio, obviously the original uploader to WP copied it without permission, not the other way around. Admins make mistakes but I doubt any of us actually think it's a copyvio on Misplaced Pages if another site copies us without permission. --W.marsh 17:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It is to help identify whether the website copied it from Misplaced Pages. Copyvios on Misplaced Pages are invariably from a single person adding it (except for some rare hypothetical possibilities), so the first part ("introduced at once...") is how that is checked for while the second part ("developed organically...") is the actual specific reason why that is checked for. This was the purpose of the 48 hour requirement and the purpose of the "not have substantial edits by multiple users" wording. —Centrx→talk • 20:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
But this can give the false impression that we should keep a copyvio if it's been rewritten slightly (by multiple editors, developed organically, etc). That's not good. Something either is a copyvio or it isn't... admins are sometimes going to make mistakes. I don't think we're going to eliminate human error by just adding more and more potentially confusing rules. Admins should determine if something is a copyvio, that's part of deleting a copyvio. --W.marsh 20:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The parameter applies if the infringing text was introduced en masse. Perhaps "developed" could be changed to "created", but "there was some on-wiki development" is not the same as "created on wiki". —Centrx→talk • 21:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Copyright violations for speedy deletion

{{db-attack}} automatically places pages into Category:Attack pages for speedy deletion. Since copyright violations are just as big a concern, would it be a good idea to do the same kind of thing with {{db-copyvio}}? I suspect this could be useful in a few different ways, assuming Category:Attack pages for speedy deletion is itself useful. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 04:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It might even be useful if the cat sortkey in CAT:CSD was a letter representing the deletion criterion rather than the name of the page; that way it would be possible to tell which db-tag had been used from the CAT:CSD page. --ais523 08:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't like that idea much. In practice, most of the speedy deletions are only in a couple of the categories. I like the list being alphabetical; the breaks in it help me keep my place. I do like the idea, though, of giving every CSD its own category, so those who want to browse by category could do so. I especially like that this might help us create Category:Candidates for speedy deleteion, criterion unspecified, because most such pages are bad speedy tags. Mangojuice 15:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like it could have the risk of causing admins to ignore a lot of delete requests. It's true that a lot of them are spurious, but I still use {{db}} myself and I think I know how to use the tags (in most cases; I can go dig up some examples otherwise if I'm on trial here). I'd rather make categories that underline the urgency of things – this seems like it would diminish importance.
It would be an easy thing to set up and I kind of support it, but I think it would be "abused". Do the existing prefab db-* templates really cover all the necessary bases? That's the main question for me. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and give this category a test run. I also notice the controversial G11 has spawned its own subcategory, and there's one for userboxes I hadn't noticed before, so this seems like a pretty logical addition and an uncontroversial one as long as it doesn't spur the assembly of a group of Internet lawyers who sit on the category page clicking refresh all day. Or... something. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 16:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This may be a good idea not because they be urgent, but because they require a different sort of examination than the others and would be helpful to analyze what pages are being tagged. —Centrx→talk • 17:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not care if subcategories are created, so long as the articles all still appear in the main category. When you create subcategories, it is much easier for stuff to be overlooked. Something to let us know when an article has been in tagged for a long time might also be good, but it would be nice to do it without having to split the articles up by the day they were tagged, though. -- Kjkolb 08:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked, the db-attack template placed the page both in CAT:CSD and the attack page subcategory; presumably it's so that people could clear out the evil/mean attack pages first, if the category is busting at the seams. I agree that any other examples of this should double-categorize. -- nae'blis 15:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What's the deal with the educational and non-commercial license speedy candidates?

There are a bunch of images tagged for speedy deletion because they use an "educational and non-commercial only" license. The strange thing is that these images were recently uploaded and they have no other edits to them besides the upload. I went to the upload page and, incredibly, there is an option for educational and non-commercial only, although is under the invalid heading. I'm guessing that choosing that option and then uploading the image automatically puts the picture in the speedy deletion category. This is bizarre, to me. Why do we let people upload pictures under that license? The only thing that I can guess is that it is so they do not choose a different license, and this way allows the images to be automatically tagged for deletion (putting the license under the invalid heading interferes with this plan, though, since people may chose a different one because of it). However, it gives people the impression license is okay, if they do not notice or do not understand the "invalid" in the menu and do not scroll down on the image page to see the speedy deletion notice (even if they do scroll down, there is a good chance it will confuse the hell out of them since the license is a choice on the upload page). Also, even if they do notice and understand the "invalid", they might think that it is a mistake since the upload still works.

Another crazy thing is the extra work that is created for admins who do speedy deletions. Even if you want to use this confusing system, you could just have the images deleted automatically by a bot, with or without a delay. The images should be in a separate category, too, so they do not clog up the main one.

There is also a much simpler system. You could have the license still be an option, but when the person tries to upload the image, it does not work and an error message explains that such images are not allowed and has a link for more information. The error message could show up on the upload page or the browser could be redirected to an error page. Finally, you could put an explicit notice on the upload page about not being able to use images with that license with a link for more information. -- Kjkolb 09:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, if you do that, people will just choose a different and inaccurate licence, like public domain or GFDL. Stephen Turner (Talk) 09:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Which suggestion(s) are you referring to? -- Kjkolb 05:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The suggestion of blocking the upload if an invalid licence is chosen. Many people just want the picture in there and they will go back and choose another licence until they find one which will let them upload it. Stephen Turner (Talk) 09:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I brought this up on Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions a month ago; I understand what people are saying about people using illegitimate licenses if they're stymied, but it doesn't make ANY sense to put the invalid licenses first on the drop-down list. We're often tired of long EULA pages and instruction sheets, and the earlier something is on a list, the more likely we are to pick it IMO. Put these at the bottom and you'll cut at least some of the problem, since a true fix would require software changes. Some people actually think our upload server is not working right because their image keeps disappearing. -- nae'blis 15:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • No, this is exactly what we need. Having those tags at the top as "trap" tags makes it likely that users who don't understand our copyright policies will pick one of them, and the image can properly be deleted. If choosing an invalid licence brought up an error, then the user would just change at random until something comes up; if we put them at the bottom, it reduces drastically the chance of unlicensed or unfree images being caught; and if we remove them entirely people just pick a completely unrealistic free licence and it never gets found at all. See MediaWiki talk:Licenses for more on this subject. Stifle (talk) 10:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Is this copyvio?

Hi, I'm want to put {{db-copyvio}} to this page: Source four, because the subject is copyrighted product name and all of its sources are taken from here: . Is this a blatant copyvio? I want to ask first, because this is my first time to put an article into speedy deletion and usually I'm not a deletionist. Thanks in advance. — Indon (reply) — 15:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No, nowhere close. Names of products are not copyrighted: they may have trademarks, but trademarks can be freely used as long as it's not in a disparaging way, or in a way that attempts to pass one product off as another. And it doesn't matter where the sources come from as much as whether or not the article is a direct copy of information found elsewhere. I actually don't see anything wrong with that page, I think it shouldn't be deleted for this reason, nor for any other reason. Mangojuice 16:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay then, you're the expert. ;-) — Indon (reply) — 17:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

One of the key parts of a copyvio is that the text is copied. —Centrx→talk • 19:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Template:attack-warn

Hey, would it be a good idea to add to the bottom of the {{db-attack}} template, "Please consider adding {{subst:attack-warn}}? This would go on the user talk page and would be a strong deterrent to these attack pages. Take a look at the template.Diez2 15:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I added {{TestTemplatesNotice}} to the template, which I believe covers what you're asking for. EVula 15:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Er, what does the template say?Diez2 17:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it should be added in. But I generally indefblock people for creating attack pages anyway. It's a pretty bad sort of harassment.--Konst.able 05:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

G12 and WP:CP are inconsistent with each other

I just noticed that while the criteria in CSD:G12 require only

Blatant copyright infringement which meets these parameters:

  • Material was copied from another website which does not have a license compatible with Misplaced Pages;
  • There is no non-infringing content in the page history worth saving.
  • The infringement was introduced at once by a single person rather than created organically on wiki and then copied by another website such as one of the many Misplaced Pages mirrors.
  • Uploader does not assert permission (for images: no assertion aside from tags) or fair use, or the assertion is questionable;


the corresponding section in Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems says:


Blatant copyright infringements of commercial sources may now be "speedied"

If an article and all its revisions are unquestionably copied from the website of a commercial content provider (directly engaged in making money from the content) and there is no assertion of permission, ownership or fair use and none seems likely, and the article is less than 48 hours old, it may be speedily deleted.

After notifying the uploading editor, add

{{db-copyvio|url=url of source}}

An administrator will examine the article and decide whether to delete it or not. You should not blank the page in this instance.

Clearly these are out of sync, in that the WP:CP version requires also the the material be "copied from the website of a commercial content provider (directly engaged in making money from the content)", but that is not in G12. My memory of how copyvio-speedys evolved is hazy, and I can't seem to find the right diffs, but wasn't it the case that the commercial content provider was originally part of G12, and then dropped? If so, the language over at WP:CP should probably be updated. Or do I have this wrong? --MCB 05:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The commercial content provision was changed a long time ago. I have updated WP:CP. —Centrx→talk • 05:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
See Jimbo's diff here , and this seems to be in line with we've been hearing from Brad and Danny. --W.marsh 05:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to you both! I wanted a reality check before just changing WP:CP myself. Best, --MCB 16:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Resume == G11 spam?

I'm just wondering if some user posts his resume a) as a main space article or b) as his userpage would it be speedily deletable under CSD G11? MER-C 07:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

In the past, we've userfied such pages when people posted them in the mainspace. -GTBacchus 07:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't really think we should be a resume service. Delete it through A7 if it's really just a generic resume of some guy trying to get a job. But if it's more of an official resume type thing of someone with notable accomplishments, it really just needs style editting, unless they don't meet WP:BIO. --W.marsh 19:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
If a résumé is posted in the main article space, it should be speedily deleted as G11. If its in user space, it should be removed (with a warning for the editor). Misplaced Pages:User page#What can I not have on my user page? notes that "Excessive personal information (more than a couple of pages) unrelated to Misplaced Pages" shouldn't be in a user's space. There's also a quote there from Jimbo that says "... using userpages to attack people or campaign for or against anything or anyone is a bad idea..." I suppose a résumé could be considered campaigning for someone, I suppose, although the quote from Jimbo is taken a bit of context in this case. EVula 19:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As a practical matter, I think userfying stuff like that is a good example of harm reduction, in that it is less likely to be re-created in article space, esp. by a confused user (who does not understand the distinction). That cuts down on the time wasted in further deletions, warnings, etc. If the user goes on to become a real editor, they'll probably fix their page at some point. And if not, and they don't do any more editing, the page can be deleted later as an abandoned uer page. --MCB 20:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
If you want to be practical, nip such things in the bud by deleting them so users don't get the wrong idea and start posting resumes en masse, explaining enough to the user so they don't do it again. To do otherwise invites (by precedent) further and further deviation from what's acceptable behaviour and dilutes the project's focus. --Improv 13:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

{{db-repost}} parameter

Any objections to adding an optional XFD discussion link parameter to {{db-repost}} (an example is here)? Apologies if this has been discussed before – I didn't find such a conversation in a quick search. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 03:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Deleted content recreated in userspace

The policy on recreation of deleted material currently reads as follows (emphasis mine):

Recreation of deleted material. A substantially identical copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted as a result of a discussion in Articles for deletion or another XfD process, unless it was undeleted per the undeletion policy or was recreated in the user space.

What is the rationale for allowing users to keep copies of deleted articles in userspace? I can see a few possibilities for abuse here. For example, say someone creates a vanity article for a company with the hope of promoting it on their website ("Look how famous I am! I'm on Misplaced Pages!") or using it to boost their search engine ranking for a particular search term. (As we know, Google tends to rank Misplaced Pages articles quite highly, and Misplaced Pages is mirrored extensively, increasing the chances that the vanity article will come up in a web search.) The article gets deleted, but a Misplaced Pages user (possibly with an interest in the company) makes an identical copy as a user subpage. Therefore the page will continue to fulfulling its original vanity purpose: it will continue to be mirrored and indexed by search engines, and it will continue to be linked from the company's website (fooling a significant portion of Internet users who don't know the difference between mainspace and userspace). —Psychonaut 06:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Userspace undeletion may be allowed for proper transwikiing, examining the contents of deleted articles that possibly should not have or a space where the author can address the concerns raised in the deletion debate. See WP:DRV. MER-C 08:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, I can actually see this being useful. If a topic is non-notable, it could be moved into userspace (or, if the author worked on it offline, they can recreate it from their copy) and continuously worked on (adding sources and citations and such) until the time that the topic is notable. EVula 15:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Comprehension check (G12)

Just a quick note to check whether this bullet point in G12 is easily understandable:

  • "The infringement was introduced at once by a single person rather than created organically on wiki and then copied by another website such as one of the many Misplaced Pages mirrors."

I'm not sure that this bit is as clear as it could be. What do people think this is trying to say (if people disagree, then the wording will need to be changed). Carcharoth 21:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. What about: "* The infringement was entered as a block of text by a single user (rather than created organically on Misplaced Pages and then copied by a mirror site, which can lead to false positives)." Probably still too wordy, but preserves all of the original intent, I think. -- nae'blis 22:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The one thing this, or the first version, fails to make clear is that copying of Misplaced Pages's material is not only done by mirror sites. Sometimes you have mirror sites that correctly attribute the material to Misplaced Pages. Sometimes you have mirror sites which fail to attribute their material to Misplaced Pages. And then you have sites which selectively copy only a few articles, and claim it as something they wrote. The important point is not whether the site is a mirror, but who originally wrote the material (with mirrors being one of the subsequent considerations after asking the initial question of who wrote the material), and whether the website in question is either (a) claiming Misplaced Pages wrote the material; (b) not saying who wrote the material; or (c) claiming that they themselves wrote the material. Also, I've just noticed that the wording prejudices the reader by saying "the infringement" rather than "the suspected infringement". Carcharoth 22:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Honestly I still don't see why we need this in the first place. Common sense dictates that if it was created originally on Misplaced Pages and not copied over, then it's not a copyright violation in the first place. --W.marsh 22:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, but it is not clear whether a particular page was copied from Misplaced Pages or not. This describes how that is determined. With the 48-hour requirement, copyvios that could possibly have been copied from Misplaced Pages were sent to Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems where the people checking it were familiar with how to do it. Now, copyvios are mixed in among the many vanities and nonsense and are handled by people more used to dealing with such obvious cases. Obviously, something copied from Misplaced Pages should not be deleted, but it is not so obvious that something was indeed copied. —Centrx→talk • 22:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Then it's more "advice for determining if something is a copyvio" than a requirement for determining which copyvios that we can delete. It's redundant, like I said, and I just don't like the idea of advice being included as a requirement, especially with vague wording, as that can lead to people getting the wrong ideas and thinking we should keep a copyvio because it's been wikified, and so on. --W.marsh 22:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a better way to put this would be to say that something is only an obvious copyvio if it is clear who originally wrote the material. That leads logically to an examination of the page history to see if the majority of the text was added in a single chunk by a single user (in which case it is probably a copyvio). ie. if the page history shows evidence of an "organic" wiki creation of the text, then it is probably not a copyvio (or rather, it is probably the other website that is copying us). Saying that clearly is the problem here.

And just to show that this is never really as simple as it seems, there is the not inconceivable scenario where a random user creates an article based largely on text from a Misplaced Pages mirror, without realising that he is using text that already exists on Misplaced Pages under a different title. That is effectively a cut-and-paste without attribution, but via a Misplaced Pages mirror rather than the usual cutting and pasting between Misplaced Pages articles. ie. Article A is created and a Misplaced Pages mirror legitimately copies it as A*. Sometime later, article B is created when someone copies text from A* straight back into Misplaced Pages. One person sees that A and A* are identical, and tags it as copyvio. An admin comes along and correctly sees that A* is a mirror article, and so this is not a case of copyvio, and removes the tag. Meanwhile, someone else tags B as copyvio of A*, and a confused admin looks at the page history of B and sees that it was added as a single chunk of text, but that A* is a Misplaced Pages mirror, so B looks like a copyvio, but isn't. Carcharoth 00:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)