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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "News reports, public record contradict 'Willie Horton' ad by right-wing 'move on' group". OpEdNews. September 6, 2004.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "More Kerry Facts The Media Will Not Disclose". BushCountry.org. August 3, 2004.

Factual error?

It appears that the article has a factual error that I can cite a reference to. It statees that John Kerry was promoted to Full Lieutenant after Vietnam. This is incorrect. He was givena temporary promottion to Full Lieutenant as the Admiral's aide. He reverted back to LT JG after he left active duty. I cite as the source the relevant documentation posted on John Kerry's own website, which has the temporary promotion document on it.

On a more controversial subject, John Kerry appears to have lied about his Naval Service. He stated that he was in the service until 1978, at the rank of LTJG. This would ahve violated Navy policy, as those years included the "up or out" policy in promotion. After getting passed over for Full Lieutenant 3 years in a row (1972-1974), he would have been discharged, which should have occurred by 1975. Thus, he could not have been in the reserves until 1978, as his own website attests. Again the cite is in reading his own records, on his website, and also knowing Naval regulations.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mycroft 514 (talk • contribs) 09:21, August 23, 2006 (UTC)

Specific cites (urls)?

I looked at both www.johnkerry.com and kerry.senate.gov and do not see the claims you mention. Could you please provide a link to these items? While you are about it, can you provide a reference that documents what you say about the promotion policies in effect at the time? --MoxRox 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

He used to have a bunch of selected military documents on his web site. I just went back and they have all been pulled down. Probably because people like me can read between the lines from the documents. One of them was the temporary promotion to LT as an aide to the Admiral. I remember my father talking about the policy of "up or out" in the 1970's. Obviously it was documented somewhere, and this is just one piece of the strange discharge paper he had dated 1978. Well, that and the Navy performance reviews he had up during his campaign. Proper reading of them indicated an officer classified mediocre, at best.Template:Mycroft 514

Clarification of "Reserve" status and "up or out poicy"

Documents in the Internet Archive from johnkerry.com show an official document indicating he was transferred to "Standby Reserve - Inactive" in 1972. That is still "in the reserves" but would not be subject to the up-or-out policy. I would have to see the "in the service until 1978" claim to assess whether it was stated problematically - need that link. Meanwhile, Kerry's sites clearly indicate what he was doing between 1972 and 1978 (going to law school then practicing as a prosecutor), so it seems unlikely any misdirection was intended, or occurred.--MoxRox 02:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

ALL Naval officers are subject to that policy. The claim of 1978 used to be up on his website, during the campaign - US Navy - 1966-1978. Further, his discharge paper was up there too, which is not like a normal discharge from the Navy, being signed at a much different level. It appears to give credence to him being discharged earlier and having the status changed in 1978. This is similar in occurance to my having 2 discharge statuses. The first was an honorable for medical, then a modification by the VA changing the status to service connected disability.

Then Kerry covered it with the revised date. As for misdirected intended. If no misdirection was intended, he would release his entire military record, even now, and dispel this set of occurances. He won't, I would put money on it. Template:Mycroft 514

Kerry certainly did release his military records, whereas many public figures have not, who probably have claims about their military service in Misplaced Pages. (There is no adequate chain-of-custody process for release of a living person's complete service record with certification of authenticity. So there is no possibility of satisfying a smear merchant who claims to want someone else's record released to him. Release to an independent third party is the best that can be done, and it was done in Kerry's case - to the Boston Globe and LA Times, who vouched that there was nothing substantive new except for the Yale grades.)

Mycroft 514, you have not substantiated a single claim with any links to references, and the claims you make have been debunked (and discussed ad nauseum) in plenty of more appropriate places on the internet. I also noticed that the Talk Page rules posted above state, "Please do not use {the talk page} as a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." I have tried to keep my responses brief, but I feel that unsubstantiated allegations should not be allowed to stand. (Any veteran wikipedians want to weigh in on how to handle this?) --MoxRox 23:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Since the www.johnkerry.com website has seen fit to remove all this stuff, I had to go learn how to use the wayback machine, and suffer thru its glacial slow response time. So here you are:

Links:

Naval documents in the wayback machine for June 30, 2004 for website www.JOHNKERRY.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20040707083924/www.johnkerry.com/about/military_records.html

PDF with page 4 appointing John Kerry to TEMPORARY rank of full LT. Note the word TEMPORARY in the orders.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040426002850/www.johnkerry.com/about/Temporary_Orders_and_Ranks.pdf

DD214 transfering LTJG John Kerry from active duty to reserves in 1972. (page 2). (Thus having the temporary rank STRIPPED from him)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040614025903/www.johnkerry.com/about/DD214.pdf

At this point the wayback machine went down for maintenance. I will try for the second set after it comes back up. Mycroft_514 And logging in because I forgot to.

I changed the reference to his promotion to LT to reflect that it was a temporary promotion and cited the given source. Good call. --ElKevbo 16:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

On the discharge, I finally found what was going on. The particular record needed is conviently hidden behind a "robots.txt" entry on the wayback machine. Galling, because it was there, but effectively removing the proof of what I was saying. Of course, why would Kerry hide it if it wasn't damaging to his case? Specifially just the final discharge papers, not all the rest of the "selected" records he had posted. Oh well, I can't prove what I have said until someday when Kerry releases ALL his records.

So, as of now, this subsection of the discussion can be removed by the moderators / administrators. Of course, MoxRox might apologize for her comments, since her comment that Kerry released all his records is wrong, and I certainly proven my assertation of the factual error.

Curious Redirect

I noticed "Sore Loser" redirects to this article. I'll leave that statement hanging in the air for those who are better aquainted with the degree of style to be applied in the Misplaced Pages to act upon as they see fit. --Mickel 09:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Is fixed. Kuru 18:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Swift Vets giving their first person accounts

Why is that an unreliable source? It is a primary source for actions they were a part of. As long as they talk about facts and not draw conclusions I see no reason why they can't be used as a primary source. Blog entries by the authors can be used as primary sources. --Tbeatty 23:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Your checkuser was officially declined on the grounds that you play nice, that doesn't mean you can just ignore a previous arbcom ruling, or it might be unignored should it be determined that your interactions on this page are disruptive--172.128.175.65 00:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I didn't make any requests for a checkuser. What are you talking about?--Tbeatty 01:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"Swiftvets are an unreliable and partisan source." -- Gamaliel in edit summary

• Wasn't John Kerry a Swiftvet?--Tbeatty 06:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You know that I was referring to SBVFT. Cut the crap. Gamaliel 16:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Lighten up, Francis. It was funny.--Tbeatty 16:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Human Events is a reliable source with credible journalists and journalism standards. You might not like it's editorial board but it has journalism standards. This was an interview of persons who were there. They disagree with John Kerry's account and how it was described on his citation. It is a point of view that requires telling. --Tbeatty 15:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The arbitration committee directed in 2004 that the "telling" take place primarily in the John Kerry military service controversy article (and SBVFT), which was created per the arbitrators' ruling on the matter. A mention of the SBVFT view here is appropriate. A rehashing is not. Derex 05:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

First, the question I asked below is an attempt to ascertain whether or not these "alternate viewpoints" or whatever they are labeled are actually connected with SBVFT or some other folks. I think it would make a difference (primarily in their motivation) if these folks were unconnected with SBVFT. I think it unlikely that there is not a connection but one has to ask, right?

Second, how were we supposed to know there has previously been an ArbCom ruling related to this article? Can't they throw a template or something at the top of articles to alert editors of previous rulings? We can't seriously be expected to search through the ArbCom archives before editing every article, right? --ElKevbo 06:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense. I was unware of the arbcom ruling as well. Where is the ArbCom ruling? I think a summary of the alternate accounts (SBVFT and others) is appropriate. It should be mentioned in the article (along with the link) in the sections that give the official version or the Kerry version whichever is the most appropriate. I don't think it is okay to have a separate isolated section that simply mentions the controversy with a single link. It should flow with the narrative of the article. --Tbeatty 06:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

'Alternate viewpoints' is SBVFT. There is no template, because the arbitration was over editor behavior. However, that was centered on this article, so they addressed it. I'm not sure that was within their proper mandate (as a content matter), but it was excellent advice anyway and has served us well.

It was the first Rex case, remedies 1 & 1.5. Note that the case was perfunctorily closed when Rex "left", though the remedy had been voted on and passed. I don't recall what the subtle distinction was on remedy 1 between the for and against votes, but all except Raul indicated that they wanted the controversy details gone from the main article and placed in a linked article. At any rate, based on that finding and personal discussions with the arbitrators, we created the John Kerry military service controversy article, created the John Kerry VVAW controversy, & greatly expanded the SBVFT. The arbitrators & everyone else (except Rex) found this satisfactory during the election, and for the past two years. Shortly afterwards, we handled the George W. Bush military service controversy using the exact same approach, again resolving some serious conflicts. I believe Clinton has been dealt with similarly, again to great improvement in both the article and civility.

It is a very bad idea to try to rehash these sort of controversies in main articles. A summary of the dispute should of course be presented. But there was a pretty good & stable consensus summary in place for a couple years now. I'm not sure when it got changed, and thus re-emerged as an issue of contention. I'll just say this. We had something that worked as a consensus _during_ the final part of the election. That speaks well for it, and I'd recommend not re-opening that stale can of worms. Go back a ways and dig up the good neutral summary, and leave it at that. Derex 07:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense. It seems the arbcom perception is that the article should be broad overview and not "blow by blow". I only saw that sourced material was being removed as a WP:RS claim which seemed absurd since the SBVT version of events was a major part of the election. I don't mind if it goes in a sub article that is referenced in the relevant section. --Tbeatty 09:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of Kerry's crewmates are either dead, or they have denounced him, due to his poor leadership and skill. Even worse is that fact that three of his Purple Hearts were self-inflicted wounds.

This claim is meaningless without being reliably sourced.PStrait 10:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

To Gamaliel

Unlike you, the swift boat veterans were actually there, what makes you think that you make a better source than they do?--—(Kepin) 12:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Are the people whom we are discussing the same group of people whose claims to have been present have been debunked (primarily those who came out of the woodwork during the 2004 presidential campaign) or a different group whose claims are more reliable? --ElKevbo 16:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

How have their claims been debunked? As far as I know, they are simply eyewitness accounts that they have been telling since Kerry's Vietnam War Protester days. There are Dick Cavett debates between the two principles from the 1970's. There are multiple versions of the events but I haven't seen where one version is more accurate than another. This is valid POV and it should be covered. So should Kerry's. NPOV requires that it be covered expecially since it was such a big part of the election. Kerry's version is the official citation version and it should be given appropriate weight. The other eyewitnesses should also have their version told. --Tbeatty 16:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if these particular person's claims have been debunked. That's why I was asking who they are which is really a very roundabout way of asking if these are the same folks from SBVFT. --ElKevbo 17:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Why? --jpgordon 16:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV

1.1 The neutral point of view

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

It's significant as it arguably changed the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. It's published in both news and book formats.

--Tbeatty 16:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Assuming we know of no good reason to dismiss their accounts, I agree with Tbeatty that NPOV demands they be represented in a manner consistent with their due weight. --ElKevbo 17:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Their accounts can be rebutted but not dismissed. They have their version of events. If they are wrong it should be straight forward to rebut them with reliable sources. Certainly the official citation on Kerry's award is very strong rebuttal. --Tbeatty 17:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Their accounts could be dismissed but I agree that it's highly unlikely to occur. There would have to be some really strong grounds for doing so. But I'm just being pendantic at this point - I think we're in agreement on the major points. --ElKevbo 17:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I am also not particularly attached to this version of "Military Honours". It can be rewritten as long as the major different major versions of events are maintained. I think the primary version should be the official version on Kerry's citation with the swift vets version as an alternate version. My only contribution was sourcing the claims with reliable sources. --Tbeatty 18:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

First sentence in the article. Change it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.110.23 (talk • contribs) 19:23, September 26, 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Misplaced Pages is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Misplaced Pages community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. --ElKevbo 01:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Fulbright hearing

Kerry was not under oath when he "testified" about USA atrocities? If that's true, this is very interesting to hear. See this link: http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=77

38.119.52.98 07:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that he wasn't under oath? --ElKevbo 07:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Uh, just read the article - it's right there:

Our chance came earlier this year when Kenneth Campbell was deposed. Among the first thing he disclosed was that this was the first time he had actually been put under oath in over 35 years of "testifying" about Vietnam "war crimes." Neither he nor any of his fellow "war criminals" – Kerry included – had ever been sworn in at any hearings, not before the Senate, the House of Representatives, or anywhere.

38.119.52.98 05:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Way too long

I agree with the 'Too long' tag on this article (of a defeated US presidential candidate). Hubert Humphrey & Walter Mondale (former US Vice Presidents) articles aren't this long. GoodDay 18:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by that.

If you mean the amount of total information in Misplaced Pages about those men: then those articles should be this long, and they would be if those men served today. There are fewer editors knowledgeable or interested in politicians who served when they were children or not even born, and certainly fewer on-line resources to provide sourcing for an article.

If you mean this article by itself, I'd agree partially. Some parts of this could be spun into daughter articles, with briefer summaries here. However, that's just an organizational issue. Derex 20:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Spin off

In response to the complaints about length, I'd like to nominate the "speculation about 2008" section. To me, that's a good candidate to put in a sub article, because it's speculation (though sourced). It's only going to get longer as we approach 2008, too. Derex 23:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good.--Tbeatty 23:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

As a Conservative I think we need to LIONIZE Senator Kerry

I think we need to add a section APPLAUDING his DENIGRATING AND INSULTING directed at our brave soldiers in Iraq

In 2004 the dems and their LIBERAL enablers at MSNBCCBSNBCNPRPBSABCREUTERS/AP wanted the election to be about Viet Nam, figuring it gave Kerry an edge. So they made it about VNam and thanks to our BRAVE HONEST HEROIC Swift Boat Vets for Truth, it was! LOL! (With additional props to Dan Rather.)

PPS In 2006, the dems and their liberal enablers at MSNBCCBSNBCNPRPBSABCREUTERS/AP wanted the election to be about Iraq figuring it gave Dems an edge.

And thanks to Senator John Kerry, the Dan Rather of 2006, it is about Iraq.

Except not quite the way they intended. LOL!!!

Sorry Kerry apologists and liberal editors at Misplaced Pages (which is AT LEAST 90% of you)

Senator Kerry helped conservative maintain control of both the House AND Sentate with his DESPICABLE comments.

And no, saying it was 'joke' just won't cut it.

It totally fits the pattern of Dems hating and denigrating our troops.

And saying, 'Hey! I wasn't trying to insult our troops, just our Commander in Chief!' only makes it worse.

John Kerry - You can't blame the Swift Boat Vets this time! lol!

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