This is an old revision of this page, as edited by C Colden (talk | contribs) at 17:14, 19 December 2004 (→Vandalism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 17:14, 19 December 2004 by C Colden (talk | contribs) (→Vandalism)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)Also see Talk:Schiller Institute/archive1
Dubious sources
From Misplaced Pages: "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable. An encyclopedia is not primary source material. Its authors do not conduct interviews nor perform original research. Hence, anything we include should have been covered in the records, reportage, research, or studies of others. In many, if not most, cases there should be several corroborating sources available should someone wish to consult them. Sources should be unimpeachable relative to the claims made; outlandish claims beg strong sources.
"Sometimes a particular statement can only be verified at a place of dubious reliability, such as a weblog or a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, then just remove it - don't waste words on statements of limited interest and dubious truth. However, if you must keep it, then attribute it to the source in question. For example: According to the weblog Simply Relative , the average American has 3.8 cousins and 7.4 nephews and nieces.
"This is similar to how we try to achieve a neutral point of view."
Factual Accuracy Dispute Tag
Slim, you appear to have added a second dispute tag, the factual accuracy tag. When using this tag, it is de rigeur for you to specify which facts you are disputing. Please do so with alacrity, as much time has passed since you put up the first tag, and you have yet to make specific suggestions. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:33, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I dispute the factual accuracy of the new "political activity" category you just created (couldn't leave the article alone, could you?) on two grounds: (1) You have supplied no references for your claims: please provide complete references for this new section and the other sections you created; and (2) I dispute that this is the entirety of the Institute's political activity i.e. I believe it paints a false picture. Regarding the neutrality tag, as I've said before, I dispute the entire tone and structure of the article. I see it as a promotion of the Institute, not as an encyclopedia entry. Finally, note, as I've also said before, I'm not going to get into another series of discussions with you about this or anything else. Slim
Slim, if you are unwilling to discuss your edits, don't edit. And certainly don't put on the dispute tag if you aren't willing to work toward consensus (I suppose that goes for Caroline Colden as well, who evidently wants to keep the neutrality dispute tag on.)
You are difficult to please, Slim. I thought that you had earlier objected to the article being weighted toward culture and not politics. The footnote I supplied to the S.I. conference archives is certainly adequate documentation for what has been discussed at the conferences. And I am going to take out some of your excessive footnotes on the death of Jeremiah Duggan, because they belong (and I should think this were obvious) on the article about Jeremiah Duggan. This is an article about the Schiller Institute. You seem to have a quarrel with the Schiller Institute, but you seem reluctant to spell out what it is. Remember that this is an encyclopedia article, and not a soapbox for the dissemination of propaganda. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- If you remove references, I will revert. These articles need MORE references, not fewer, as there are hardly any in there. I do think there should be more politics, but written from a NPOV. Slim 01:47, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
I have reduced the amount of space devoted to Jeremiah Duggan in this article. There is, after all, an extensive article on Jeremiah Duggan. Frankly, to give people a balanced perspective on the Schiller Institute, there ought to be greater emphasis on Amelia Boynton Robinson, who is in my view the soul of the organization, but I'm going to leave it as it is for now. I doubt that either Slim or Caroline will be satisfied, but in my judgement, the article is now relatively balanced. -- 01:53, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
References
I have added a "References" section. Please add your references to this section, in the order they first appear in the article. If all claims are clearly referenced, there will be fewer disputes and it will be easier for the reader to follow and to judge the veracity of the claims. Any additional reading material that is not directly referenced in the text should be cited under "Other external links" if it's online, or "Other reading" if it isn't. Slim 00:48, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
Page protection
Following a request by user:Herschelkrustofsky, this page is protected from further editing, with differences to be resolved on the Talk page. Herschel, I don't understand why you started editing this page again after the last dispute, as it had been stable since C Colden's edit on November 18. If you are determined to add a "political activity" category, it should be fully referenced; must be written from a NPOV; and must attempt to be more comprehensive. That is, it must say something about the political activity of the Institute from the point of view (a) of the Institute and (b) of its critics, both written from a NPOV, and with links to the references. Even from the Institute's own point of view (based on what I recall from their website), their political activity involves more than holding conferences.
The only section I wrote is the Jeremiah Duggan one and so I added references for that section only. Please don't reduce this section any further. It was longer than this previously; you wanted it much shorter, and it was reduced to its current length several weeks ago as a compromise. I haven't changed the content; only added links to references that I had no time to add earlier. You're welcome to do the same in the sections you've written; and I hope you do. Accurate references shouldn't be removed as they aid the reader. The more claims that are accurately referenced (so long as the reference is reputable, or is a primary source e.g. like the Schiller Institute website is a primary source regarding the titles of Schiller Institute conferences), then the more encyclopedic the article becomes.
Once the political activity section is more comprehensive and referenced, the factual accuracy tag can be removed so far as I'm concerned. Alternatively, if you don't want to make it more comprehensive, perhaps you could change the name from "political activity" to "conferences," which would make it factually accurate. Regarding the neutrality tag, C Colden and I agree, for different reasons, that it should stay.
Finally, I have no problem with you adding info on Amelia Boynton Robinson if she really was the soul of the organization, so long as everything you add is fully referenced. Also note: I have no quarrel whatsoever with the Schiller Institute. All I want is for the article to be encyclopedic, and not a propaganda piece in the Institute's favor written by its supporters. Slim 04:23, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Slim, a page is not "stable" so long as it bears the dispute tags. A dispute tag indicates unresolved problems with the article. Caroline made the only specific complaint, that she apparently thinks the Duggan business is a fraud and irrelevant to an understanding of the Schiller Institute. My sense of the matter is that, despite your protestations of innocence, you are looking for some way to make this article into a vehicle for your anti-LaRouche activism. The amount of space devoted to the Duggan affair -- particularly with the six(!) external links you have devoted to it -- has made this article into just a re-hash of your article on Duggan. It's like an encyclopedia article, ostensibly on Bill Clinton, where the bulk of the article is devoted to Paula Jones. As far as the political activity of the Schiller Institute is concerned, its political activity consists primarily of holding conferences, and running a website. If you found reference on the S.I. website to other forms of activity, add it. If you found some legitimate criticism of the Institute's political activity that you want to add to the article, add it. But I suspect that your agenda is better served by muddying the waters than by trying to present a real encyclopedia article. --05:28, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- As I said, I'm not entering another series of pointless discussions with you. Please assume good faith. You were the one who asked for page protection. In response to your request, I've laid out (above) my specific objections to the article in terms of its factual accuracy; and I've suggested specific ways those objections could be dealt with. It's up to you whether you want to say here how you intend to proceed. If you feel there's too large a percentage of space devoted to Duggan, then suggest how you will expand the political activity section to include more about the Institute's politics, observing NPOV. Adding, not deleting, is the best way to proceed (within limits, of course). Add more of your own references, then the Duggan references will not stand out. I have no agenda apart from wanting this to be factual, thorough and properly referenced. The page was stable before. We had agreed to disagree, and the neutrality tag was left up as a sign of that. You are the one who has re-opened the can of worms. You are the one with the (self-confessed) agenda. I have no interest in Lyndon LaRouche. You will notice that I haven't inserted Duggan material into the Lyndon LaRouche pages - but it does belong on the Schiller Institute page because that's the organization facing the allegations, which were made in a court of law, not in some scandal sheet. The bulk of the article is not about Duggan: don't exaggerate. Stop making personal attacks and insinuations and please stick to Wikpedia policy on NPOV, "assume good faith," "no personal attacks," and providing references for claims. Slim 05:45, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
- When this page is unprotected, I will add documented material about the Schiller Institute, so that it looks like an article about the Schiller Institute and not "Jeremiah Duggan II." --Caroline 15:31, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- As I said, I'm not entering another series of pointless discussions with you. Please assume good faith. You were the one who asked for page protection. In response to your request, I've laid out (above) my specific objections to the article in terms of its factual accuracy; and I've suggested specific ways those objections could be dealt with. It's up to you whether you want to say here how you intend to proceed. If you feel there's too large a percentage of space devoted to Duggan, then suggest how you will expand the political activity section to include more about the Institute's politics, observing NPOV. Adding, not deleting, is the best way to proceed (within limits, of course). Add more of your own references, then the Duggan references will not stand out. I have no agenda apart from wanting this to be factual, thorough and properly referenced. The page was stable before. We had agreed to disagree, and the neutrality tag was left up as a sign of that. You are the one who has re-opened the can of worms. You are the one with the (self-confessed) agenda. I have no interest in Lyndon LaRouche. You will notice that I haven't inserted Duggan material into the Lyndon LaRouche pages - but it does belong on the Schiller Institute page because that's the organization facing the allegations, which were made in a court of law, not in some scandal sheet. The bulk of the article is not about Duggan: don't exaggerate. Stop making personal attacks and insinuations and please stick to Wikpedia policy on NPOV, "assume good faith," "no personal attacks," and providing references for claims. Slim 05:45, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
- I was fowarded this link Misplaced Pages:Cite sources by an administrator who feels that the Schiller Institute article needs proper references. I hope you will follow it. Slim 07:27, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
Comments on versions
Hi, just responding to the entry on RfC.
All of the information on Jeremiah Duggan needs to be kept inside its own article and linked out, IMO. It can be summarized, more or less, but anything verging on detail should be kept separate. Likewise, the references should probably be moved to the other article. "A spokesperson for the Lyndon LaRouche organization has strongly denied the Institute played a role in Duggan's death" should be kept only if a source can be found and cited. I like the section having more wikilinks as well, but the "state of terror" thing should be removed in favor of just keeping the cite.
Basically I think the best lies somewhere in between. Good luck on getting this resolved. Reene 07:34, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Why? I disagree. The action is against the Schiller Institute, right? Then it should be retained in this article. I agree with the "A spokesperson for the Lyndon LaRouche organization has strongly denied the Institute played a role in Duggan's death" bit. Find a reference for this please people. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:40, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Hi, Reene and Ta bu Shi da yu, the reference is directly after the sentence, citation #8, an article from a LaRouche publication. I will quote the strong denial from that article to make it clearer. Slim 11:33, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
There is noting really major between the two versions, besides chunks of information added/removed and the date of the inquest on the death of Duggan ("November 6, 2003" in SlimVirgin's version, and "October 2004" in that of Herschelkrustofsky). For reference. ] 01:25, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages policy
Below are the principles and policies that all editors, including those editors who support Lyndon LaRouche, must adhere to, with no exceptions. No further discussion will be entered into about this by me, as enough has been said. Slim 23:57, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Copyrights (Images must be licensed directly from the copyright holder, who must waive the copyright so the image can be freely distributed by Misplaced Pages readers.)
Regarding novel narratives involving a new synthesis of information: "An article that makes no new low-level claims, but nonetheless synthesizes work in a non-standard way, is effectively original research that I think we ought not to publish. This comes up most often in history, where there is a tendency by some Wikipedians to produce novel narratives and historical interpretations with citation to primary sources to back up their interpretation of events. Even if their citations are accurate, Misplaced Pages's poorly equipped to judge whether their particular synthesis of the available information is a reasonable one," Jimbo Wales (WikiEN-l, Dec 6, 2004)
Regarding NPOV and factual accuracy dispute tags, these must be accompanied by specific objections that are fixable. Otherwise, it is a misuse of the tag.
Latest edit
Don't insert claims unless they are referenced to reputable publications. If it's a claim made by the Institute about itself, that can be used, but if it's a claim that is too self-serving, it should be followed by the view of others, also properly referenced. If you use a reference, include it in the References section. If you refer to a published book (by the Schiller Institute or anyone), give the title, and then the title, date of pub, publisher and ISBN number under References. If you can't find those, it means it wasn't published, in which case delete the reference. Let's do this properly: according to the rules of scholarship and Misplaced Pages policy. Slim 01:23, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
Vandalism
I wrote what I thought was a generous compromise article, after reading the Comments on Versions. SlimVirgin has responded with a new edit which I can only consider vandalism. He is attempting to use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox for his anti-LaRouche campaign. By the way, the documentation on Marie-Madeleine Fourcade is found on the page I listed as source -- it is a photograph of her on the dais at the conference. --Caroline 14:18, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- If you can source that Wills and Fourcade were there, by all means put it in. All I ask is that material be properly sourced. You are insane if you call my edit vandalism, and I mean that very sincerely and in the literal sense. I added just one sentence in the intro: that its critics regard the Institute as a political cult. In fact, that is more than fair, because it is so regarded by most people, not just its critics. I also moved your "history" to the end and recalled it "conferences" because it wasn't the history of the Institute, or anywhere near it. Stop your propaganda efforts or I will go back to the ArbCom and will formally request that they kick you out of Misplaced Pages or ask you to stop editing LaRouche articles, which would amount to the same thing because that's all you ever do. You shouldn't have anything to do with Misplaced Pages. Have you noticed that ALL your edits cause trouble? You are a poisonous troll. Slim 19:29, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
- When you post a personal attack like that, it pretty much destroys your claim to be a neutral editor on articles about the Schiller Institute. Also, the decision to include the Schiller Institute in the Misplaced Pages category of "cults" was not made by a third party "critic" -- it was made by you, SlimVirgin, and it reveals your true POV. --Caroline 17:14, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Below are the principles and policies that all editors — including those editors, like yourself, who support or work for Lyndon LaRouche — must adhere to, with no exceptions.
Regarding novel narratives involving a new synthesis of information: "An article that makes no new low-level claims, but nonetheless synthesizes work in a non-standard way, is effectively original research that I think we ought not to publish. This comes up most often in history, where there is a tendency by some Wikipedians to produce novel narratives and historical interpretations with citation to primary sources to back up their interpretation of events. Even if their citations are accurate, Misplaced Pages's poorly equipped to judge whether their particular synthesis of the available information is a reasonable one," Jimbo Wales (WikiEN-l, Dec 6, 2004)