Talk:Red Dwarf - Misplaced Pages

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Dave Hollins: Space Cadet was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 23 June 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Red Dwarf. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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The Temporary Absence Of Rimmer

This isn't explained from a real world point of view : the actor Chris Barrie got to make a BBC 1 sitcom called The Brittas Empire, where he was the star. For a time it became extremely successful, and as production duly increased he had to drop out of Red Dwarf (where he wasn't the star and that sitcom was on BBC 2 so was less popular and less in demand by viewers and the BBC). As the popularity of the Brittas Empire series duly faded and it was axed though, he was duly able to return to Red Dwarf again.

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British or English?

With regard to this reversion - an additional clue is in the name: The BBC, aka the British Broadcasting Corporation... Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:26, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Strong editorial point of view in the Overview

The article has a really strong POV that Red Dwarf isn't 'really' science fiction. from the article:

"Despite the pastiche of science fiction used as a backdrop, Red Dwarf is primarily a character-driven comedy, with science fiction elements used as complementary plot devices."

It so happens that I don't agree with this opinion... my view is that Red Dwarf is bona fide science fiction. But what am I supposed to do about that: start an edit war on a pre-existing wikipedia page? Is that how this works - the person who gets in first on a page gets their personal opinions injected as fact? No, the better solution is for the wikipedia page to not present opinion dressed up as fact, and drop the editorialising. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.99.197 (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree. It should go.RJ4 (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This is fair enough. I've been bold and removed the sentence "Despite the pastiche of science fiction used as a backdrop, Red Dwarf is primarily a character-driven comedy, with science fiction elements used as complementary plot devices". The claim isn't supported by the Concept and commission section, which makes heavy mention of the science fiction origin, and only passing comment about the "british comedy". Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:34, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't want to start an edit war either, but I don't think that a few hours notice is adequate for such an editorial decision. If you think that the article contains a strong POV, the correct response is to add the appropriate banner and allow adequate time for interested parties to come to a consensus.

For what it's worth, the entire original premise of the show is that two people who don't get along, for reasons not completely within their control, are forced to interact with each other within a confined space. This is such a common theme in character-driven plots and shows it could be called a hackneyed cliché. Arguing the show is primarily about the science fiction is like arguing The Breakfast Club is primarily about detention. I think the original wording was spot on. No one is saying that character-driven shows can not also be bona fide science fiction. Furthermore I'd say that it was not a POV but a self-evident fact. --Alvint69 (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I've made some changes which will hopefully be acceptable to all interested parties until a consensus can be reached. --Alvint69 (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't see why we should make allowances for thanksgiving? What relevance does that have to editing Red Dwarf? Anyway, my point and reason for editing is that science fiction is backed up in the article, yet the odd-couple claim is not. If you can find sources to support this - especially those that support the claim that RD is primarily an odd-couple comedy and science fiction second, then I'll have no problem with the statement staying - but at the moment it's not supported by the rest of the article or sources. If it's "a self-evident fact" you should have no difficulty in finding sources to corroborate your opinion. The very first sentence in the lede says "Red Dwarf is a British science fiction comedy franchise" - the emphasis is on science fiction and comedy in general, not what type of comedy it entails. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

The Odd Couple claim was not the part that was removed or proposed to be removed; I just included it in that section when I reorganized the page because it logically flowed from the other content. However, I would argue that the parallels to The Odd Couple are also self-evident. I'll remove the Thanksgiving part since it was just flourish and not relevant to my point. --Alvint69 (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't see why we should make allowances for thanksgiving? What relevance does that have to editing Red Dwarf? - I don't think Thanksgiving was the point, it was more about the quick removal without giving others the chance to comment. Between the time the IP started this discussion and when the content was removed was a mere 3 hours. The disputed sentence has been in the article for a very long time and has undergone much editing. For example, looking through the article history, "pastiche" was added way back on 24 May 2005 (13.5 years ago) with this edit. Given that it hasn't been removed in all that time, it seems to have a general community consensus so a bit more discussion is really required. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, and in my defence - there were three editors who felt that removal was warranted, and I specifically said "I've been bold..." with the implication that should it be followed by R, I would be quite happy to D. It's also only now become a disputed sentence - prior to that it was simply a phrase in the article that is (was) subject to the same critique as every other statement made.

I maintain my previous standpoint - it is science fiction comedy, and this claim is supported by the article itself, whereas the claim that it is a character driven comedy is not. I'm willing to concede that character driven comedy has a part to play - because every comedy relies upon characters within, be they human, computer, alien or whatever - but to say that the focus is on character, rather than science fiction requires a source. Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:59, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Again, I dispute the implied premise that this argument is based on--that a show can't be both sci-fi and character driven at the same time. Of course it can, and virtually all modern shows or plots are character driven to some degree, regardless of genre. I also think it's self-evident that this show is higher on the character driven scale than most. The obvious example is the progression of the Rimmer character, which if the show weren't as character driven as it was would likely have just devolved into a one-dimensional foil similar to the TV version of Frank Burns. --Alvint69 (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Nah, the argument is not that the show is or isn't character driven - the argument is whether it is primarily a character driven comedy, or a science fiction comedy. The disputed text makes the claim that it is primarily a character comedy, and science fiction is secondary and incidental:

"Despite the pastiche of science fiction used as a backdrop, Red Dwarf is primarily a character-driven comedy, with science fiction elements used as complementary plot devices."

I maintain that this is not correct, and that while I agree it has character driven comedy - it is primarily a science fiction comedy show. Again, I believe that the current article backs up this claim, stating that RD has always had its roots in science fiction, albeit science fiction comedy. Again, if you think otherwise all you have to do is source it.

In my corner I have the Concept & commission section, which is sourced and states "influences came from films and television programmes such as Star Trek (1966), Silent Running (1972), Alien (1979), Dark Star (1974) and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (1981)", "it was rejected on fears that a science fiction sitcom would not be popular", and of course the prototype for RD; Dave Hollins: Space Cadet Chaheel Riens (talk) 14:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

How about toning down the wording? How does everyone feel about rewording that sentence to, "Red Dwarf is a character-driven comedy with a pastiche of science fiction used as a backdrop, and with science fiction elements also used as complementary plot devices."? --Alvint69 (talk) 15:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

That is not toning down at all. In fact it's even worse, because it now removes "primarily" and instead states categorically that RD "is a character-driven comedy" when that is not the case. If it is to be reworded - which I don't personally like, and I think it should simply be removed - then it should be along the lines of "Red Dwarf is a science fiction comedy using character driven situations in a pastiche of sci-fi shows such as Star Trek and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:59, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Again, the assertion that RD is not a character-driven comedy is simply not true, and again the assertion reflects the belief that this is an "either-or" situation, which it is not. I guess we're just not going to agree on this.

As previously mentioned, this sentence has survived over a decade of revisions and that strongly implies most people believe it to be accurate enough. How about we leave the banner on the page for time being and allow others to have their say? --Alvint69 (talk) 16:14, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I stepped away for a couple of days for exactly that. However, if we allow others to have some input, you would also do well to use the time to find sources that support your viewpoint, which apart from saying "it's not true" you haven't done. The disputed claim is that RD is primarily character driven comedy, not primarily science fiction comedy. This is my bone of contention.

I agree that it is character driven comedy, but that is not what is being contested. What is being contested is the claim that it is primarily character driven comedy, and the science fiction elements are secondary to that. That is what the current statement says, and I refute that, backed up by the rest of the article which makes a big deal of the science fiction roots. There are already sources in the article that claim it to be science fiction comedy, so I'm ok there.

It's all well and good to say that the claim has been in the article for years, but so what? All that means is that it's not been challenged in that time. Now it has. Now you need to provide sources - as stated in the template you added. If you can't provide a source, then it's not a valid claim and can be removed.

There is no dispute over whether RD is either/or - the dispute is over whether it is primarily science fiction or character. I have provided sources (that are already in use in the article) that say RD has always been science fiction, is described in the media as science fiction, and has it's genesis in science fiction. Yes, it has character driven comedy, and (like any other comedy show, if we're honest) couldn't exist without character interaction, but it is primarily a science fiction show, and the text should state this. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:45, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

There are only two choices here; a show/movie/book/whatever is either plot-driven or character-driven (more precisely, it's a sliding scale between the two). This the the long-accepted nomenclature/terminology/taxonomy that has evolved to discuss these things. When we say here that RD is primarily character-driven, it means that it is more character-driven than plot-driven. Like all other genres, sci-fi is on the spectrum between completely plot-driven and completely character-driven. Much of sci-fi is mostly plot-driven, but this show is mostly character-driven. Again, these are the only two choices. Asking people to find a source proving that something is not in a category you made up that currently doesn't exist is ridiculous. Since this wording is the current status quo, the onus is on *you* to cite a preponderance of credible sources that claim that RD is specifically not one of the two accepted categories, but is actually a third category that doesn't yet exist.

If you feel that there needs to be a third, separate category for fiction (I guess "sci-fi driven" or maybe more generally "environment-driven"), this is obviously not the appropriate forum for that. Misplaced Pages uses the accepted existing nomenclature to describe things. Do do otherwise would be unnecessarily confusing.

If you need help deciding between character-driven and plot-driven (the only two choices here), just do a Google search for "character-driven vs plot-driven". You will find many, many articles to help you on this. --Alvint69 (talk) 15:40, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

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