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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Intuitionz (talk | contribs) at 19:31, 11 November 2006 (→Canada: "American Sovereign State" or Not?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article is hereby recognized as a recipient of the FCGA Award.

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This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

What's new?

Did you know

• 20 Oct 2024 – Mwene Muji (talk · edit · hist) was nominated for DYK by Kowal2701 (t · c); see discussion

Articles for deletion

• 05 Dec 2024 – Emirate of Banu Talis (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by R Prazeres (t · c); see discussion (5 participants; relisted)

Categories for discussion

• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in South America by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in Europe by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 21 Dec 2024 – Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Sims2aholic8 (t · c); see discussion

Redirects for discussion

• 13 Dec 2024 – Old Roman Empire (talk · edit · hist) →Roman Empire was RfDed by Veverve (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Les États Unis d'Amérique (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты Америки (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – 米国 (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Estados Unidos da América (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 12 Nov 2024 – Canadaa (talk · edit · hist) →Canada was RfDed by TeapotsOfDoom (t · c); see discussion
• undated – Yemen-Taizz (talk · edit · hist) →Kingdom of Yemen was RfDed
• 16 Dec 2024 – الولايات المتحدة (talk · edit · hist) →United States RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c) was closed; see discussion

Good article nominees

• 01 Oct 2024 – Regency of Algiers (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Nourerrahmane (t · c); see discussion
• 01 Oct 2024 – Connecticut Colony (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Gazingo (t · c); start discussion

Featured article reviews

• 30 Oct 2023 – Byzantine Empire (talk · edit · hist) was put up for FA review by SandyGeorgia (t · c); see discussion

Requests for comments

• 08 Dec 2024 – Estado Novo (Portugal) (talk · edit · hist) has an RfC by 2804:29B8:5183:100C:7163:1F92:A81A:7841 (t · c); see discussion

Peer reviews

• 24 Dec 2024 – Central Powers (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by History6042 (t · c); see discussion

Requested moves

• 23 Dec 2024 – Slovak Republic (1939–1945) (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to First Slovak Republic by 143.179.74.165 (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Syrian opposition (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Syrian opposition to Bashar al-Assad by Panam2014 (t · c); see discussion
• 17 Dec 2024 – Threatening statements in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) move request somewhere else by CanonNi (t · c) was moved to Red lines in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) by Cyberdog958 (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion
• 16 Dec 2024 – East Timor (talk · edit · hist) move request to Timor-Leste by Kenneth Kho (t · c) was moved to Timor-Leste (talk · edit · hist) by Robertsky (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion
• 02 Dec 2024 – Makhzumi dynasty (talk · edit · hist) move request to Sultanate of Shewa by BarrelProof (t · c) was moved to Sultanate of Shewa (talk · edit · hist) by Reading Beans (t · c) on 17 Dec 2024; see discussion

Articles to be merged

• 29 Nov 2024 – Uyunid Emirate (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Uyunid dynasty by Mrox2 (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Nov 2024 – Champa (Ja Thak Wa) (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Ja Thak Wa uprising by 27.96.243.106 (t · c); see discussion

Articles to be split

• 29 Nov 2024 – Sind State (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Veritasphere (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Oct 2024 – Francoist Spain (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Salmoonlight (t · c); see discussion

To do list

Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Misplaced Pages, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

Navigation

This WikiProject helps Misplaced Pages's navigation-related WikiProjects (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Misplaced Pages's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Categories

Subpages

• List of all subpages of this page.

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Misplaced Pages, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

This section contains an essay on style, consisting of the advice or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how to format and present article content within their area of interest.This information is not a formal Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

• WP:COUNTRYLEAD

For lead length see, #Size

Opening paragraphs

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Misplaced Pages lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

First sentence

The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is, and where. It should be in plain English.

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting and naming disputes, may be dealt with in the etymology section. Foreign-languages, pronunciations and acronyms may also belong in the etymology section or in a note to avoid WP:LEADCLUTTER.

Example:

Y Sweden, formally the Kingdom of Sweden, is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail, duplication and tangible information

• WP:COUNTRYDETAIL

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article. The lead prose should provide clear, relevant information through links to relevant sub-articles about the country an relevant terms, rather than listing random stats and articles with minimal information about the country.

Example:

Y A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. ]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

• The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
• The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
• A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
• A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
• Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
• The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
• The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
• The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
• If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
• Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
• Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
• GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
• HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
• Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: ].
• Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
• National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
• Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
• Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.

Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

• WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

• Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
• History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
• Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
• Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available.
• Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
• Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
• Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
• Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
• See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
• References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
• External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links

Size

• WP:COUNTRYSIZE

Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually 250 to 400 words as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.

• Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
• Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
• Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
• Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
• Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
• East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
• Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
• New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
• Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"

Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles should be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

Y== Economy ==

N== Economy ==

Charts

• WP:COUNTRYCHARTS

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams that lack any context or explanation such as; economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

• WP:COUNTRYGALLERIE

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Misplaced Pages:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

• H:TRANSDRAWBACKS

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

• Transcluded text may have no sources for statements that should be sourced where they appear, have different established reference styles, contain no-text cite errors, or duplicate key errors. (To help mitigate these, see Help:Cite errors)
• Excerpts break the link between article code and article output.
• Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page.
• Transcluded text may cause repeated links or have different varieties of English and date formats than the target page.
• Transclusions may not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. See Cascading protection
• {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained.
• Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for "section heading" changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. (To help mitigate this, see MOS:BROKENSECTIONLINKS)
• Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

• Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
• Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Misplaced Pages articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Sisterlinks

Related WikiProjects

• WikiProject Former countries
• WikiProject Micronations
• WikiProject Limited recognition

Popular pages

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Popular pages

Notes

1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige

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Template:Featured article is only for Misplaced Pages:Featured articles. Template:FAOL Template:Mainpage date

Canada received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Template:V0.5

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Discussion of Canada's official name Canada's name Official Name 1

Canadian Culture

Granted, "Canadian culture" is an elusive concept, but the absence of any reference to the vast cultural differences between Quebec and the rest of Canada -- and this is not a reference to cultural differences from a political perspective -- mis-informs. If the following phrase, "Many cultural products are now marketed toward a unified "North American" market," is included, it must be accompanied by the statement that a unified North American market does not include the province of Quebec which has had to develop, for example, its own French language "star" system that is almost entirely divorced from what could rightly be refered to as the more integrated English-speaking North American market. Perhaps it would be a good idea to start this section of the article off with one of the most interesting features of "Canadian" culture which is the fact that it is difficult to define because it is not unitary. This is to say that by creating the category "Canadian culture", the editors pre-suppose something for which there is no consensus in erudite Canadian circles; if anything, the national unifying malaise is a lack of distinctly uniform Canadian culture. --Philippe90210 07:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of Canadian culture belongs in Talk:Culture of Canada. Remember WP:NPOV Avt tor 01:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Program vs. Programme

Since this appears to be cropping up in the recent edits... on the East coast, program would be preferred over programme, however they often would carry different meanings. Programme would specifically refer to a printed listing of events or a television show. CMacMillan 04:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Alberta, here. I might expect a programme, if I went out to a play, but otherwise program is by far the more common usage. --Q Canuck 04:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Vancouver Sun would be the same - Victoria is more "Britsh" but even there programme would be rare - likely only for a play --JimWae 05:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Canadian spelling

Do these searches:

• +canada +programme

  (most of the above are French)

• +canada +program

Even

• "toronto star" +program
• "toronto star" +programme

Which is the more common spelling in Canada?

We do not correct spellings when they are not only correct but ALSO the most predominant in that country --JimWae 04:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Yes, the searches - which are central Canadian dominant - do produce more results for programme in French than the program one, however the regionalist nature of language in Canada could sway the results. Try the same search for +Canada +programme, but add +"Cape Breton" or +"PEI" and you'll see a very different result set.

• there are still 4 times as many for +program +"cape breton" than for +programme +"cape breton" --JimWae 21:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm obviously here more for the discussion than the actual edit, so I appreciate that people are taking the spelling issue with a grain of salt ;) However, my feeling is that Google response count doesn't make it right, or valid. There are 4 times as many responses for +Canada +color than there are for +Canada +colour. Most of us would agree that "colour" is the Canadian spelling however.
  • The discussion, I think, centres on the fact that it's impossible to say what's right and what's wrong. We can say that program is the more common usage based on experience, but just like it isn't wrong to use "tickle" for "narrow mouth of harbour", it isn't wrong to use programme - just much less common. CMacMillan
• However, it was originally "program" and someone came along "correcting" it for "Canadian" spelling - obviously unwarranted, no matter what region of Canada one os from --JimWae 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• I see the editor has reverted himslef. Since I did the work to find them, here are some style guides anyway --JimWae 23:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • http://www.yorku.ca/ycom/style/sg42.html
  • http://www.ucalgary.ca/external/style-guide.html
  • http://www.caot.ca/default.asp?pageid=1063
  • http://www.tc-forum.org/topicus/ru15spel.htm
  • http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:iTDNSDf9STYJ:dynamic.capcollege.bc.ca/AssetFactory.aspx%3Fdid%3D27283+canada+spelling+style+guide+%2Bprogram&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=14

Not that I'm arguing for programme over program :) ... just a comment on how "common" isn't necessarily reflected by Google searches. Use the word "tickle" in Toronto and then try it in St. John's and the response will be radically different. CMacMillan 20:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I am Canadian and I have always seen it spelled program. The government of Canada is required to use correct Canadian spelling by law, here are some goverment websites that use this word. You will see on the french version of each page that Programme is used. While Canada speaks both English and French officially, I think the english version should be used as this is the english wikipedia. HighInBC 21:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, not necessarily. Health Canada, a government agency, uses Programme: , as does PISA . Programme, by the way, is the British spelling as well as the French spelling. CMacMillan

I see the point of misunderstanding here, proper names always use the original spelling. Health Canada's Tobacco Control Programme is a name of a group, but on the same page they use program. The same goes for Programme for International Student Assessment. HighInBC 13:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As I was sitting viewing the colourful harbour and writing cheques I came to the conclusion that I was wrong editing "program" for "programme". I will make the change. However, I did enjoy the responses I evoked!--Niloc 21:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

One should be careful when using newspaper articles as a reference regarding Canadian spelling. For example, The (Montreal) Gazette, in its style guide, favours American spelling since it receives and publishes articles from wire services such as Reuteurs, UPI, etc. To attempt to Canadianize all these articles would be time-consuming and costly, so it settles on American spelling. BroMonque 18:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've only ever read/heard program, and I live in Winnipeg. In certain areas, the variation fluctuates. Disinclination 00:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The Canadian government used program on all english document with the exception of proper nouns of French origin, for example Programme for International Student Assessment uses the french spelling in the title but the english spelling in regular text. HighInBC 01:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Kwakwaka'wakw big house

This image is currently a featured picture candidate. Due to a large influx of new candidates there are very few votes for this image. If you have an opinion on this image please go to Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kwakwaka'wakw big house and cast your vote. HighInBC 13:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The American State of Canada

"Canada became a Permanent Observer at the Organization of American States (OAS) in 1972, and then joined as the 33rd Member State on January 8, 1990." (Government of Canada) http://www.international.gc.ca/aboriginalplanet/750/around/international/aroas-en.asp

and "The Organization of American States" http://www.oas.org

Would we be able at this point to include "The American State of Canada" as the 33rd Member State? Intuitionz 18:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If you mean listing Canada in the article at Organization of American States, it's already there; otherwise, I don't understand what you mean or why you think Misplaced Pages would use the phrase "The American State of Canada" to denote anything. I'll be charitable and assume you're aware that the OAS is an organization of all of North and South America's independent countries (except for Cuba), and has nothing to do with constituent states of the USA. Bearcat 18:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

We should add under the Article Canada, "Canada is the 33rd member as an American State." Intuitionz 02:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"The American State of Canada" includes it's entity as a "member" State "Country" of Continental America, is what I was saying, which is important in disclosing Canada's LEGAL status in continental America. Intuitionz 18:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry, but in Canadian english continental America means the 48 states of the US that aren't Alaska or Hawaii. Canada thus has no legal status in continental America. WilyD 18:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• The term "The American State of Canada" has no legal standing, any more than "The American State of Venezuela", "The American State of Haiti" or the laughably redundant "The American State of the United States of America" would. The legal names of countries do not normally include references to their continents. Bearcat 19:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"Canada's LEGAL status in continental America" is as a sovereign nation or country. while attempts at precision and classification are welcome, listing canada as an american state makes about as much sense as listing esperanto as a canadian language. it can be argued as technically true but has no actual relevance. -- Denstat 23:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"The American State of Canada" refering to NOT the U.S. but to The Continent America, is LEGALY DEFINED an American State by signing and ratifying BY THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA with the Organization of American States in 1990. The GC's website is even called http://www.AmericasCanada.gc.ca This may not be in Canadian favor, but, by Legal means Canada has been part of America as an American State since 1990. Intuitionz 02:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record, the Government of Canada's website is at . Canada's been part of the America's as long as it's existed. It's membership in a particular organization has nothing to do with anything. What point is it that you're trying to make? --Q Canuck 03:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Correction: Canada's been part of the America's since 1990. Persuent the Organization of American States I just thought we could include Canada's recent membership of America. Intuitionz 04:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Saying Canada wasn't part of the Americas until 1990 is like saying Norway isn't part of Europe, because it's not part of the European Union. The Americas are a geographical landmass. Membership in an international organization doesn't change what continent you're on. --Q Canuck 12:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

America is generally understood to means the United States of America. The continetnal landmasses are known as North America and South America. Collectively, they are known as the Americas. There is no "American continent". Saying that "Canada is part of America" is not consistent with standard English-language usage of the word "America". It would therefore be confusing for readers and should not be used.

The term "American states" is more commonly used in English to refer to the 50 constituent states of the US. The fact that the term "American states" appears in the name of the OAS can also lead to confusion because it is not consistent with the more common usage. As a result, it is not advisable to use it here.

Why would we say "Canada is the 33rd member as an American State" rather than the clearer and more precise, "Canada is the 33rd member of the Organization of American States"?

As far as the "American State of Canada", this is the very first time I have ever seen that phrase used. I doubt that it would be easy to find many examples of it being used elsewhere. As we all know, Misplaced Pages is not a place of original research -- see WP:NOR for the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. If you want to coin that term on your own website, go ahead, it's a free world wide web. But original research doesn't belong here. Ground Zero | t 12:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Googling "American State of Canada" provides six unique results. Two refer to the somewhat obscure area of ethnomusicology. The other four are about the Americanization of Canada, and America as an imperial power. So there is no support for the idea that this is an appropriate way of denoting Canada's membership in the OAS. Ground Zero | t 12:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Logo

What does the logo represent?

The four colours indicate the four main languages spoken throughout the hemisphere: blue (French); red (English); gold (Spanish); and green (Portuguese). That all four appear in both north and south America symbolizes both the widespread use of English and French in the south, and the growing interest among Canadians to learn about Latin American and Caribbean culture.

Could you provide source?Poaseo 04:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The "arms" that embrace the hemisphere symbolize the sense of common purpose, the foundation of shared values, and the belief that each nation has a stake in the well-being of the others - in short, the concept of "La gran familia". http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/latin-america/latinamerica/contact/about-logo-en.asp Intuitionz 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

six quarters?

The Demographics part of the article tells that three-quarters of the population (in Canada) lives within 160km from the US. border. Then it says "A similar proportion live in urban areas concentrated in the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor (notably the Toronto-Hamilton, Montreal, and Ottawa census metropolitan areas), the BC Lower Mainland (Vancouver and environs), and the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor in Alberta."

A similar propotion to what? to me it seems like that within the 160km and in the urban areas there live six quarters of the Canadian population, witch is a 50% more than there actualy is in whole Canada. I did not change this, since my non-english background may confuse my understanding of this sentence. Snalin 13:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if the statistics as cited are accurate, but the simplest explanation is that the areas described by "160km from the US border" and "the Quebec City-Windsor corridor etc." overlap. People in Montreal, for example, would be counted in both. That being said, the phrasing is awkward and redundant. I'd suggest: "Roughly three quarters of Canada's population is concentrated in the urban centres of three areas: the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor (notably the Toronto-Hamilton, Montreal, and Ottawa census metropolitan areas), the BC Lower Mainland (Vancouver and environs), and the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor in Alberta. Almost all of these are within 160 km of the U.S. border." --Nephtes 03:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You wouldent say the American state of the united states of america would you? so the same goes for Canada.

Gov't "intervention" in the Economy

This section states that "Canada is a free market economy with slightly more government intervention than the United States, but much less than most European nations." Can someone tell me how these assessments have been measured? Absent some supporting material rooted in a set of criteria enjoying wide consensus, this sounds to me like one of those things supposedly "everyone knows" but which might prove more complicated than it first appears.

In addition, I'm not sure the word "intervention" isn't inherently POV, inasmuch as it appears to portray an authority or outside agent inserting itself into a sphere of activity in which it is not a natural participant. I agree that this is a widely-held view of government's role in the economy, but it's hardly a neutral one. The term used to describe such activity ought to be, however, and I'd propose "participation" as a less value-laden alternative to "intervention". --Rrburke 20:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is a good catch -- it isn't very helpful to a reader if we're just stating this baldly with no mention of what the criteria for this judgement is, or who makes it. We should attribute this appropriately. Jkelly 20:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Intervention" may not be great, but I think "participation" is doubly flawed because a) its positive connotation makes it POV in the opposite side of the scales and b) it's far too broad a term... just having a payroll of civil servants is "participation" in the economy; I don't think that's what's being referred to. On the other hand, completely agreed about the weaselly way of describing the relative level of intervention/participation/whatever of Canada vs. USA vs. european countries. --Nephtes 16:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth. This is probably a bit biased, but it should at least show that the issue is not at all clear-cut.

Globe and Mail columnists view on Canada article

• Link to the full story

This is just an FYI by the way, not a "this article sucks!". Maybe there's improvements that can be made based on this info, because although this is an encyclopedia, it shouldn't be seen as boring and depressing, much the same as Canada isn't boring or depressing. —B33R 11:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem with such a sort of analysis on an encyclopedia page, is that the encyclopedia page is not supposed to be promotional. They have a fundamentally different purpose. -- Jeff3000 15:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You can't please everyone. HighInBC 16:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* It's a national pastime. Don't sweat it... wait until she reads the article on the Globe and Mail! CMacMillan 16:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the author of the article made some good points. There's definitely always room for improvement. There is always a tendency amongst non-Canadians to view our nation as simply existing in the shadow of the United States, and though there is certainly a great level of influence involved, as can be felt anywhere in the world, I think Canada is unfairly portrayed as such. Unfortunately, many Canadians themselves in recent years are also responsible for promulgating these stereotypes, mostly due to simple ignorance and lack of education regarding the Canadian political system. If Misplaced Pages can help to dispel such myths and clarify the cultural and political atmosphere of Canada, then why not take advantage of that? DragonRouge 22:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I can agree with this in principle, I always look askance at any kind of criticism that doesn't come with concrete, constructive ideas for improvement. What I would need to know before doing anything is, exactly what does our Globe columnist think the article should say? Bearcat 22:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That particular columnist is not one I would look to for constructive criticism in any case. She wasn't looking to give advice on a better article; she was looking for padding for her column. If Misplaced Pages hadn't fit the bill, she would probably have gone to Heritage Canada next. Eron 22:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless, she has a point. If "Culture" is seen more as arts and less as social customs, then the section is severely lacking. No mention of museums, art galleries, literature, music and musicians, festivals, etc. As for placing sports under the culture concept (as it's done in most articles about Canadian communities)... well, that's another story. --Qyd 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I generally agree with Eron about it being padding for her column, the fact remains that the majority of the page is about history and very basic general knowledge. As Qyd points out, there's nothing about modern day Canadian activities/life except for a paragraph about sport. All the other stuff seems to be sidelined onto other pages. I think 'Culture' needs a big overhaul, even if it only has a few extra paragraphs about museums, galleries, music etc. with links to the other pages for 'more info', it would be an improvement.
Anyway, I'm going to send an email to the columnist and see if she has anything else to say. If anyone wants to ask any neutral parties, who are familiar with Canada, for some constructive criticism then maybe we can get some ideas on how to improve Canada. —B33R 04:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that this page is supposed to serve as an introduction. It is not supposed to be all encompasing. Note the summary style guideline as well as the note at the top of the page which I repeast here:

"Notice: This article is already too long. It is not intended to discuss all issues related to Canada, but serve only as an introduction. Before you add material to this article, please consider adding it instead to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, e.g., Politics of Canada, Geography of Canada, etc. Thank you."

I would even support shortening the history section. It's way too long. -- Jeff3000 04:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I corrected vandalism. Other users please note and monitor.Avt tor 21:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Formal name

I had thought that Dominion of Canada was still the formal and official name of Canada, but it is not mentioned in the first sentence. Is this no longer so? DragonRouge 22:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Read the subsection on "Origin and history of the name", and/or the separate article Canada's name. Bearcat 22:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I missed that! Thanks. DragonRouge 22:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed at great length at Talk:Canada's name, Talk:Canada's name/Archive and Talk:Canada's name/Archive2. Ground Zero | t 22:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the links! Interesting discussions. DragonRouge 22:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So, either this page or Canada's name needs to change, as they contradict one another. Carolynparrishfan 17:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Where is the contradiction? Both articles make identical statements that "the Canada Act 1982 refers only to "Canada" and, as such, is currently the only legal (and bilingual) name. " It's ungrammatical (I'll fix that) but it isn't contradictory. Eron 17:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Canada's name says "While no legal document ever says that the name of the country is anything other than Canada, Dominion and Dominion of Canada remain official titles of the country". Carolynparrishfan 19:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

That sentence is bizzare, how else can a country define it's name if not through legal documents. Surely we the treaties we sign with other countries would both be a legal document and contain our official name. HighInBC 19:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It's also rubbish. Extensive investigation has shown that Canada's name is nothing but 'Canada'. This was settled long ago. The sentence seems to have been removed now. DJ Clayworth 19:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "official titles of the country" is problematic. I think the point is that Canada is still sometimes called "the Dominion of Canada" or referred to as a "Dominion", although this is falling into disuse as time goes on. I think the situation is analogous to a person's name; someone whose legal name is "John Smith" might from time to time be called "Mister John Smith," or "Doctor John Smith" or "Captain John Smith." His legal name remains the same in all cases; it's simply a question of adding a title. As the BNA act referred to the creation of a "Dominion" called Canada (as opposed to a "Kingdom", or a "Republic"), the word Dominion has at times been used as a title to accompany the legal name. In our informal times (when was was the last time you called anyone "Mister"?) that title is increasingly dropped. Eron 19:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

What is "Canadian"

I note that "Canadian" (in parentheses) is defined as the largest ethnic group in Canada. I would like to know who qualifies as "Canadian" as distinct from "English" or other ethnic groups. Usually "ethnic" refers to national background. In this article does "English" refer to those Canadians born in England (I don't think the percentage would be anywhere near this figure) and if not, when does a "Canadian" become a "Canadian?" Dwallen11 19:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no standard qualification. The ethnicity reported in the census is entirely self-reported, respondants can list as many ethnicities as they choose, and (I think) it is not done by checking items in a list, but rather by writting in answers themselves. --thirty-seven 20:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Whenever he/she says he/she is. The 1991 Census provided a series of response check boxes (English, French, German, Italian, etc.), but lo and behold, the most often used were the people who wrote in "Canadian", although it was not a choice among the boxes. Stats Can bowed to the inevitable and in the 1996 Census, people had to write in all their ethnic origins, with "Canadian" given as one example among 24 (see 1996 Census handbook PDF file, p.60). People were asked to write in as many as applied to the question: "To which ethnic or cultural group(s) did this person's ancestors belong?" "Canadian" was by far the most popular response. Same thing in the 2001 Census. So this is what people say they are. Short of doing a geneological study on a large sample of Canadians, how else is one to get the information? And who is going to decide what ethnic group someone belong to? Luigizanasi 20:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The census question focuses on ancestors, in what I expect is an attempt to get at the real question: where did your people come from before they came here? As one of those who wrote in "Canadian" I can only offer an anecdotal explanation for why I did so. In my case, I have to go back to one of my great-grandparents to find someone who was not born in Canada. I can go back two or three more generations and find several ancestors who were born in Canada, or in the territory that became Canada. Given that, it seemed clear that my ancestry was primarily Canadian. (This is in contrast to my wife, a first-generation Canadian, who could not list that as her ethnicity because none of her ancestors were born here - even though she herself was.)

I think the increase in self-reported "Canadian-ness" over the last couple of decades comes from two sources. There is an increased awareness and acceptance of being Canadian as a primary identifier, and (related to this) there are increasing numbers of young (or at least, young-ish)Canadians who, like myself, can trace back several generations of Canadian ancestors and so question why they should be defined as having some other ethnicity. Eron 20:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I would have written in Canadian as well, for similar reasons: for several generations my ancestors have been born in Canada and more importantly (in my opinion), at least as far back as my grandparents (and probably farther) they *think/thought* of themselves as Canadian and not English, Scottish, Irish, etc. For the same reason, I would have also written in these other ethnicities, since going back a little farther I would have had ancestors identifying themselves in these terms.

I realize this is a very unscientific and arbitrary method, writing in how I think my ancestors would have self-identified - but I speculate this kind of reasoning is why many Canadians wrote in "Canadian" on the census. --thirty-seven 21:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought of putting in Etruscan, Cisalpine Gaul, and Samnite but I figured that maybe it would be going too far back. :-) Luigizanasi 01:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What is a "Canadian"? Someone from Canadia, of course! Ground Zero | t 18:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Colonial empires edit summary didn't display properly; confused.

In the introduction "]", which simply resulted in "Canada" being displayed as the link ... so I removed the pipe and now colonial empires displays properly. But I'm not sure if that is the proper markup, as it may refer to any colonial empires (with no Canadian context).

Sorry, but my editing comprehension around the possibly billions of internal links, pipes, etc., isn't up to speed with the potentially billions of hours it'll take me to ever figure it all out.

If anyone could help to clarify or fix up the edit, well at least it reads properly now instead of showing markup brackets and right in the intro within 10 seconds of reading. Someone must know how it was/is supposed to be. Thanks in advance for taking a peek. --S-Ranger 16:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

History section: "Although" seems misplaced

"Although Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada for a long time, some archaeological studies date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago."

Although what? It's a challenge: "Although Aboriginal tradition holds ... the proof is that they were here 26,500 years ago". Huh? "Although Aboriginal tradition holds ... archaeological studies prove otherwise," would make sense: if it were true and it's not. --S-Ranger 18:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how these "studies" prove "otherwise", and I also don't "get" the although. Sfahey 15:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Anyone else? And looking at it, the whole paragraph has to be rewritten to remove "Although" at the beginning, in which case it will state nothing. Suggestions? WP:BB and all, I'm supposed to "be bold" and just change it, but I've looked it over a dozen or three times and don't even know what it's trying to state. The only solution I have (as yet) is to remove it all. But I didn't add it, am just one person and whomever(s) did add it must have meant something and just got the wording a bit mixed up. --S-Ranger 15:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I think what the sentence is trying to imply is that the First Nations tradition states that they've always been in this region, but that archeological studies only date back to X amount of time (which is less than forever). -- Jeff3000 16:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• 26,500 years is NOT a long time? --JimWae 16:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily; it depends. For example, the time of the dinosaurs, 65 million years ago, could be a long time, or a billion years ago could be a long time. -- Jeff3000 16:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input and sorry for no five colon indentation (a bit much) but I am responding to the above. ;-)

Is it true (and verifiable) that Aboriginal tradition holds that "they" (any humans) have been anywhere on this planet forever? This planet hasn't been around forever (nor can humans truly comprehend forever/infinity), but 26,500 years pretty much amounts to "forever" in this hemisphere. 15 minutes in a line-up amounts to "forever" to busy folks who have "a billion" things to do every day and/or night. :-)

We'd need a reliable citation for verifiability if it were going to be changed to:

"Although Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada forever, some archaeological studies only date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago." (Bold for emphasis only.)

Where are we going to get the verifiability about what the Aboriginal peoples believed, 25,000 years ago or even 9,000 years ago? Where would they even get the verifiability from? "It was passed down from our ancestors" (which ones, from where, and for how long?) doesn't amount to it being accurate/verifiable. So then it has to be changed to:

"Although current Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada forever, some archaeological studies only date human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago." (Bold for emphasis only.)

And is it accurate to claim "tradition" as opposed to "traditions", plural, given how massive this country is and that the Aboriginal peoples who migrated to south Ontario sometime between 26,500 years ago to 9,500 years ago (and I haven't seen any sources/verification for the alleged archaeological studies either; but haven't looked yet either) have held the same, whatever singular "tradition" is supposed to mean (beliefs), possibly ten thousands or so years after they had no contact with one another?

"Beliefs" might be more appropriate, because it's what is being claimed. Tradition can be belief, but it can also be a ceremony, like poker night, happy hour, etc., or a totally irrelevant Governor General and Lieutenants Governor, that we have in Canada for traditional reasons only; not beliefs that we're still part of the British Empire, or that the British Empire even exists anymore.

Sorry. I'm not trying to be impossibly picky, but am just trying to get it right. "Long time" (which means nothing; 15 minutes can be "eternity" depending upon what is happening to whomever, with their personality and perceptions) is stated: not "forever." And 26,500 years is certainly a very long time compared to Christian beliefs, for example, which are only 2006 years old (give or take) at best.

"Aboriginal tradition holds that the First Peoples inhabited parts of Canada for a very long time and some archaeological studies prove so, dating human presence in northern Yukon to 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario to 9,500 years ago."

I'm not exactly happy with it, but it's better than what exists now and makes some sense, so rewording it further should be much easier. I just don't want to see "Aboriginal tradition holds" being tread upon: nothing personal, it's just that their "tradition" (faith, beliefs; why "tradition"?) are correct; as usual -- if "long time" (as stated now) is what their traditions, plural, hold.

And if not, it doesn't really say anything. "Very long time" is eye of the beholder and I can't imagine anyone claiming that 26,500 years isn't a very long time: as opposed to forever, in which case we need to get verifiability and from all of the Aboriginal peoples in Canada, or a study that they participated in and supplied the answers to.

Thoughts? --S-Ranger 17:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I like the last wording; I would go ahead and change it to it. -- Jeff3000 17:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the input. It can always be reverted, so, as suggested, I'll just change it to the above for now and see what happens. --S-Ranger 17:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just made a minor change: I thought the phrasing "... studies prove so, ..." was a bit stilted, so I changed it to "... studies support this belief, ...". Besides, I think "prove" carries a sense that finality that I'm not sure is warranted. --Nephtes 18:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Perfect! I wasn't happy with that either but couldn't get the right words out (too many ales last night, I think). ;-) Thanks for the help. --S-Ranger 18:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

User Anonymous 57

User Anonymous 57 has added non-referenced tags to a whole bunch of sections. I've reverted him three times, so I can't do so any more, but this page is very-well referenced. All the general statements are in the books at the bottom of the page, and all the specific numbers and controversial statements have a ref tag. No where in Misplaced Pages does it state that every single statement has to have a ref tag. Other forms of referencing which this pages are acceptable, and this page has passed through featured article status. I would recommend other editors revert his changes. -- Jeff3000 20:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

If "all the general statements are in the books at the bottom of the page," then each of the general statements must be followed by the appropriate <ref name="..." /> tag. Until each statement is matched to the corresponding reference, the "citation needed" tags must remain. Please see WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR. Anonymous 57 20:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need to cite a source that says Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskachewan, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island are provinces of Canada? This goes beyond common sense into a ridiculously literal reading of a guideline. Sorry, such strong words are required to be used in this situation.--physicq210 20:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

According to WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR, yes, these bald assertions must be backed up. If you know which of the sources already listed under "References" can be used to support them, please use the <ref /> tag as already described. Thanks. Anonymous 57 21:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:UCS. A literal reading of rules will not be beneficial to anyone nor the encyclopedia. --physicq210 21:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

From WP:CITE:

"Inline citations for uncontroversial common knowledge items are not necessary. Common knowledge facts are those that appear in multiple reference textbooks for the field, all of which are listed in the references section of the article."

So the references at the bottom of the page are sufficient and extra ref tags are not necessary. -- Jeff3000 21:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:There's no common sense. There is no such thing as common knowledge. Now, I'm unfamiliar with the subject matter, so I'm not in a position to match statements to sources. If you have the books listed under the "References" section, why don't you? It would vastly improve the quality of this (currently almost entirely unsourced) article. Anonymous 57 21:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

If there's no such thing as common knowledge, why does Misplaced Pages policy explicitely use it in their policy pages. If you're not familiar with the subject matter, you are in no position in doing what you are doing. -- Jeff3000 21:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm far better equipped than you to judge what is and isn't "common knowledge" regarding Canada. Just because you know that Canada is separated into twelve provinces (or whatever) doesn't mean that everyone knows the same. These bald assertions need sources; they are not common knowledge. Anonymous 57 21:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The reference is there, you just choose not to accept it because it's not in a ref tag style. I would suggest you go read it. -- Jeff3000 21:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Then what's the point of using footnotes at all? Might as well just have a monolithic "references" section, because backing up individual statements is too much trouble, right? I hope you can see why your reasoning is wrong. Anonymous 57 21:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous 57, may I suggest instead you copy a leaf from WP:UCS. And yes, "UCS" stands for Use common sense. Respectfully, Ramdrake 21:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought we already went over this. There's no such thing as common sense. And even if there were, it's far from "common sense" that Canada has twelve provinces. Perhaps in Canada, but certainly not in the rest of the world. Anonymous 57 21:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

No, you are not far better equipped. If you were, you would actually be referencing the "unreferenced" statements rather than leaving others to interpret your vaguely worded "warnings." And, I really don't want to invoke this, but please read m:Don't be dense. --physicq210 21:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't reference those statements because I'm not familiar with the texts, so I leave it to others to match statements with their references. Honestly, how hard can this be to understand? Anonymous 57 21:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

If you cannot find the references yourself, then don't go around needlessly peppering every featured article with {{unref}} tags. How hard is it to understand that? --physicq210 21:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

So anyone who can't find references should refrain from removing unverified, uncited content? That's contrary to policy and common procedure. I suggest you rethink that statement. Anonymous 57 21:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have been more clear, but do not misinterpret my statement. If you so wish to go into semantics, notice that I used the words "needlessly peppering" to describe your current actions. Adding a few {{unref}} tags when needed is helpful (I have done that myself), but "needlessly peppering" FA's is not. --physicq210 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the references are there. You choose not to look at them. Also read the quoted section from WP:CITE again, not everything needs a footnote, there are multiple ways of citing content that is acceptable to Misplaced Pages policy. -- Jeff3000 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous, one simple principle of civility: if you can't or won't do it yourself, you're not in a good position to demand that others do it. You can always suggest, though. --Ramdrake 21:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm demanding nothing. By leaving "citation needed" tags where appropriate, I am suggesting to contributors that they provide sources for presently unverified text. No more, no less. Anonymous 57 21:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

A final time, the references are there. Not everything needs to be in a ref tag. -- Jeff3000 21:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, most editors believe (with reason) that your "citation needed" tags are not appropriate. --physicq210 21:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Do not edit other people's comments, Anonymous,. unless it is a personal attack or legal or death threat. It is rude. --physicq210 21:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

3 editors have told you in about an hour that those tags are inappropriate. How many more do you need???--Ramdrake 21:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

How many more? A majority of the editors, if physicq210 wants his statement to stand that "most editors believe" these citation-needed tags to be inappropriate. Otherwise, I'm going to have to ask for a reference. Anonymous 57 21:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You have now ventured from superficially interpreting policy and guideline to a ridiculously literal interpretation of people's comments. Again, Don't be dense. --physicq210 21:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

And, no, you do not "have to ask for a reference." You can supply one yourself if you so wish. --physicq210 21:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Or I could have just reverted your edit for lacking factual references, as happens every single day here on Misplaced Pages. This would have been standard operating procedure; don't pretend otherwise. That I refrained from doing so was simply a courtesy to you. Anonymous 57 21:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Revert what edit? My reverting of your editing of my comments without prior permission? Or the removal of your {{unref}} tags that have been backed by two other editors? --physicq210 21:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The edit which contained the assertion that "most editors believe (with reason) that your 'citation needed' tags are not appropriate." Though I could just as easily blank the majority of this article for being unreferenced, and that, too, would be within policy. Really, you should be grateful I haven't; again, as a courtesy to you. Anonymous 57 21:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

No. That would be disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point and is forbidden by policy, and could get you blocked. Please, WP:DBAD.

Courtesy? Nay, thou wouldst be blocked for disruption and/or gain even more the ire of others. --physicq210 21:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. Improving the article by removing unverified information is "disruption." Thank you both for that valuable insight. Anonymous 57 22:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. "Improving" the article by needlessly adding {{unref}} tags contrary to WP:CITE is disruption. --physicq210 22:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyone please read WP:NCR and please calm down. Stormscape 09:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know where this "Royal's Anthem" idea started?

Does anyone know where this idea/discussion for the addition of the British Monarch's("Royal anthem") came from?

Was there discussion/vote on adding the Royals' song to other countries outside of the United Kingdom? It's giving the song a bit more credit than it is really worth. I contend this song is not officially recognized as such in those countries, it is no longer even taught in schools as such. I think the song should just remain on the Queen's page as her song. True-- countries in the commonwealth and elsewhere may play her song if she visits (because it is her song.) but many countries will also play the US national anthem if a diplomat from the US comes to visit too. It doesn't make the US national anthem every other country's "Royal anthem" either though. CaribDigita 21:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Do any other countires have a "royal anthem" in addition to the "national anthem"? This may be a uniquely Canadian thing. There is a group of monarchists who have repeatedly tried to re-write the article to blow the role of the monarchy in Canada out of proportion. This may be a vestige of one of those attempts. It is correct, however, and I don't think it's doing any harm here. Ground Zero | t 21:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It's actually the Royal Anthem for the Canadian Monarch, and is played at official functions at which the Queen is present. It also forms a part of the Vice-Regal Salute played for the Governor General and lieutenant-governors.

I think it came about purely through inherited tradition rather than by any vote.

Australia has the same Royal Anthem, it's one of two national anthems in New Zealand, and is the royal anthem in Norway. The article on God Save the Queen tells it all. --gbambino 21:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there Gambino I did have a chance to read the "God Save the Queen" article and saw that as well. However specifically in Barbados' case- the official code of etiquette says that even in the presence of the Governor General or Monarch the Barbados National anthem shall be played. The Constitution which I thumbed through a few times has no mention of a Royal anthem either. Basically any diplomat or foreign team is going to have their song played, not just the queen but the lyrics aren't taught anymore for it to be considered as either a national symbol or emblem. CaribDigita 23:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Both the Royal Anthem and the National Anthem ideas started in the UK and it used to be the only country which had either. Now every country has a National Anthem even if they don't have anything else. Generally only monarchies have a Royal Anthem but there are exceptions: For instance the US has a Royal Anthem (alright a Presidential Anthem) too in Hail to the Chief. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Heritage Canada says "'God Save The Queen' has no legal status in Canada, although it is considered as the royal anthem, to be played in the presence of members of the Royal Family or as part of the salute accorded to the Governor General and the lieutenant governors." Note the lower case on "royal anthem;" it seems to be more a matter of tradition and protocol than any legal status. Eron 00:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Which makes Canada exactly the same as the UK. "God Save the Queen" has no legal status as an anthem there either. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

How many religions to list in Demographics paragraph

Hi all. I just removed Judaism from the paragraph regarding religions under Demographics. I want to be clear that this is not anything to do with any desire to decrease the profile of the religion. Here's my rationale: First, stats:

Christianity: 77% Islam: 2.0% Judaism: 1.1% Buddhism: 1.0% Hinduism: 1.0% Sikhism: 0.9% Other: 0.3% None: 16.5%

See? Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism are so close by numbers that unless we're going to list all four, I don't think that we should list any. ...and if we're going to list all four, then we should just have a table. I think there would be a valid argument to remove Islam as well, as it's one-thirty-eigth the size of the first place, but there is an argument for it as it does have almost twice as many as the rest of the "pack". AshleyMorton 12:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I think the demographics section is too long (as are some others). The religion paragraph is OK, but I would trim down the Christian/Catholic/Protestant phrase. Such fine-grain details belong in the Demographics of Canada article. Mindmatrix 15:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree, and I would support the cutting down of other sections as well (especially the History section). -- Jeff3000 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Demographics Math Problem

I just noticed that the list of ethnicities in the demographics section adds up to Canada having %126.6 of a population. Is the census wrong, or do people get listed as multiple things (i.e., Irish-Scottish)?--Moncubus 03:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

From the source of the data Stats Can, you can notice that all the ethnicities adds up to 44,099,260, much higher than the total population of 29,639,035, so that would imply that people could check multiple ethnicities. -- Jeff3000 03:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That's correct — a person of mixed Irish/Scottish heritage would count as one Irish and one Scottish in the demographic data, so it adds up to more than 100 per cent. Bearcat 03:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Quebec's sovereignty movement

I believe that it is important to indicate or at least to think about why there are so many issues between the English and French culture in Canada. Without saying that one group is better or worse than the other one, and without denigrating each other, I just think that we should write on why the Quebec's sovereignty movement exists, and why it is so omnipresent in the province of Quebec. There is misunderstanding between both groups. The reference about that issue is everywhere in Quebec, ask any sovereingtists and you'll get the answer. It is not summarized in only one book that one person wrote. We only have to watch TV and watch the political debates about that issue.

As a Quebecer myself, I can tell you the view of a French Canadian. I'm not a sovereigntist and I've never been one, but I can tell you that I'm an activist and even though French and English are both official languages, Canada is not a bilingual country. As French speakers, we are not even able to travel around Canada and easily live in French in other provinces, whereas an English speaker can easily live in English anywhere in Quebec, no matter how big is the majority of French speakers in the city where he or she travels. As former Prime minister Trudeau has already said, Canada would be a bilingual country if Anglophones made as many efforts to learn French than Francophones do to learn English. With that in mind, how could a French speaking Quebecer be attached to the rest of Canada if he or she is not even able to live in French anywhere in its own country?

Canadian politics doesn't considered the French Canadian culture at a fair value because the English Canadian group is much greater than that of French Canadians. Therefore, in that political situation, democracy alienates the French Canadians, especially the Quebecers. And true liberal democracy is not omnipotent. Why does Quebec mostly stand as a dissident in most interprovincial and federal collaborations? Because the decisions are made in accordance with the majority, and since the nine other provinces are English provinces, they have similar views on many issues that differ from the French view of Quebec.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.210.166 (talk • contribs)

Hi. Please see Misplaced Pages:No original research -- we cannot come up with our own arguments and ideas from our general background knowledge. We attempt to create an encyclopedic summary in our articles, citing references for the views and facts that we include. Also, keep in mind that this is a Misplaced Pages:Summary style article about the entire country. Detailed analysis, properly referenced from reliable sources, should go into the Quebec sovereignty movement article. Thanks. Jkelly 22:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sure you can find already published sources regarding these ideas. HighInBC 17:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

i don't see Italiophones from Switzerland complaining because they only live in a small area. Zazaban 21:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The responses to the first thoughtful comment in this section suggest a bias on this page which is in fact borne out by the way the Supreme Court's decision on Quebec's right to separate from Canada is presented. Specifically, the paragraph states that the Supreme Court held that Quebec does not have a unilateral right to secede but that a separatist movement nevertheless persists. One would conclude from the phrasing that even if Quebec voted to separate it would not be able to do so legally. This paragraph, and the sentence in particular, in order to provide a balanced perspective, should include the fact that the rest of Canada would not have a basis to refuse to negotiate Canada's separation in the event of a successful referendum. This point is critical because referenda in Quebec have sought to provide the provincial government with the authority to vote to negotiate secession from the rest of Canada; these referenda have not been a vote on something like a unilateral vote of independence. --Philippe90210 07:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Bilingual Province(s)

As far as I know, New Brunswick is the only legal province that is bilingual (has both French and English as official languages. Is this not a good fact to include in the introduction when it talks about Canada being bilingual? btg2290 02:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It is already mentioned in the article. The lead should be a general description, and such details are left to the body of the article. Please read Misplaced Pages:Lead section. Regards, -- Jeff3000 02:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, thank-you for your speedy response. btg2290 02:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Canada is a bilingual country. In 1968, the Trudeau gov't passed the bilingual act making English and French the offical language of the federal government (Canada being federal) This means that French and English are used in federal institutions in Canada. The province of New Brunswick is offically the only bilingual province, meaning that services in the province are both in English and French, that is the difference between Canada and NB being bilingual.

Marijuana?

I've heard that marijuana may or may not be legal? Can anyone clarify? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.253.171 (talk • contribs) .

It's not legal as of yet, though some political parties are pushing to decriminalize possession of small amounts of it. -- Jeff3000 16:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe--in Ontario at least--that marijuana was decriminalized (for small amounts) about a year or a year and a half ago. However, the news reports that I'm remembering were stressing that while it was being 'decrimaninalized' it was not being 'leagalized'. kev. 09:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No, there was some federal legislation introduced a few years ago to decriminalize possession of small amounts (and to increase penalties for dealing), but it died because it didn't get passed before that session of Parliament ended. It certainly wasn't Ontario-specific. Generally, in Canada the federal gov't has exclusive power to legislate criminal law. --thirty-seven 17:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The Harper Government scrapped the laws for decriminalizing it at the federal level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.20.10 (talk • contribs) 15:49, October 30, 2006 (UTC)

We should keep an eye out for any news on this topic, though. Out here in BC, marijuana legalization is always being tossed around. Supercraft99 05:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Images.

ALL of the images are broken. on every page on this site.... Zazaban 03:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It is working now. HighInBC 03:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

What vandalism has anybody done, if it's an insult to Canada by probably Americans, then screw them.

Yeah! You're right! I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but to those that vandalize stuff like that, they are retards! I don't wanna swear, cause I might get blocked, but the thing is, they're are disrespecting Canada! You can't blame me for saying mean things, because it's harsh to hear that kind of propaganda towards the peaceful country. Basically, (Most)Americans are dumb. I'm saying most because there are some Americans on my fav NHL team. An example of a good American is Patrick Eaves. Basically, America sucks. Oh yeah, I wish I could vandalize the America page, it's just that I'll get blocked.... That's be a taste of their own medicine!Hasek is the best 20:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't feed the vandals, folks. Just watch the article, revert their changes, and warn them (warning templates can be found at WP:Templates; if they do it too often, report them to WP:AIV and they're likely to be blocked. They're just vandals, nothing serious. I also recommend not being insulting about other nationalities, or anyone, really. It's not really productive. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, lets remember to remain civil...even in the face of uncivil behavior. Furthermore, making "personal" attacks is not helpful...It would be best of follow the vandals and file a complaint to get the person(s) blocked. I agree with Tony Fox on this. DPeterson 01:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, good points, but I think the original poster - from Surrey - is likely just trolling. That comment seems a little misplaced. CMacMillan 01:34, 25 October 2006

(UTC)

Okay, sure then. Hasek is the best 22:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Provinces

You know, if I came to this article looking for the names of the provinces of Canada, it could take quite a while. Lots of place names are used with the assumption that a reader will already know whether a city, province, or whatever is being referred to. And once I find a link to the provinces of Canada article, it still takes quite a bit of scrolling and reading to find them. --JimWae 19:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

And personally, I find tables much easier to find & to read than paragraphs - but there seems to be a presumption against tables on many articles. Many print encyclopedia use tables though --JimWae 19:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There's not even an entry in the TOC for provinces. Administrative divisions? I thought (at least some) provinces JOINED confederation, and were not administratively divided up by the federal gov't after joining --JimWae 19:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

If I sound annoyed, it could be because I've brought this up umpteen times before --JimWae 19:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a bad suggestion, and yes, provinces joined confederation, not administrative divisions. They just may not have been provinces of Canada at that point. CMacMillan 20:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

While the section can be named Provinces, people who don't know that provinces are administrative subdivisions may find it initially confusing. As for the tables, if I remember correctly, featured articles recommend prose instead of tables or lists. -- Jeff3000 20:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have just looked in vain for any mention of tables in featured articles guidelines - it may of course still be a common objection - based on personal tastes. Should personal tastes rule over readability and editors decisions? --JimWae 20:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Other countries, including the United States, have "administrative divisions" (not, for example, "States"). Seems to be a Misplaced Pages standard, in other words, change to be discussed at a higher level than this Talk page.Avt tor 20:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe that's because the same name would not apply for every country so a generic name is used in the outline - but that does not mean we need to be restricted. The US article does not even list the states in that section - rather talks more about non-states that are part of the USA --JimWae 20:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What I would hope is that someone coming ot knowing the word 'provinces' they would click on 'administrative subdivisions' in the contents. If they know the word it appears in the introduction, with a link to Provinces and territories of Canada. DJ Clayworth 21:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'd be wary of hoping that too many assumptions are fulfilled. I do not think the article is "user-friendly" in this regard. Nor, once the link is found, is the Provinces and territories of Canada article much friendlier. In a table NL is obviously 1 province - not so clearly in a paragraph. I still do not understand the resistance to tables by so many editors. --JimWae 21:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The opening paragraph of the "Administrative divisions" section reads "Canada is composed of ten provinces and three territories. The provinces are Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, and Saskatchewan. The three territories are the Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon Territory." I'm not really sure how that could be made any more clear. Eron 23:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Not everyone is willing to read that far down into the article to find out the names of the provinces - nor which names used earlier in the article refer to provinces & which refer to other things - and the TOC is not much help. Unless you already know early in the article what some of the place names refer to, much of the rest of the content is useless --JimWae 23:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Our audience is not solely to Canadians, and I would doubt that most English speakers in the world, and/or all Misplaced Pages users know that Provinces are the subdivisions in the country, so I believe that the current title is the appropriate one. And I find tables ruin the flow of the article, especially given the relatively large table that would be produced by the provinces and/or territores. -- Jeff3000 04:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe I am too just modern - but if I want to organize information & be able to find & retrieve the information quickly, tables are indispensible. Rather than interrupting the flow, tables are far easier to skip over (if one wants to do so) than several paragraphs on the same topic that have no clear demarcation of a start & a stop. And maybe I am also too spatially oriented - but if I am going to read a bunch of place names, I want to know which are for cities & which are for larger areas (like provinces or whatever) - and maybe a map showing the political & topographic geography so I know where they are. And it seems to me that precisely the same thing would benefit non-Canadians reading a bunch of place names in the Canadian history section. (I see there is no longer a model for section order for paragraphs in country articles.) So early in the article one points out that the next smaller political entity in Canada is a province & then you produce the list/table. 13 rows is not a large table - but large enough to be quickly found when needed again though. I also find nothing deadens the "flow" of text as quickly as a list in paragraph form does. --JimWae 05:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I really don't like tables or lists, and would rather have prose, even it's a list that's written like prose. From Misplaced Pages:Embedded list "As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries. ... Instead of giving a list of items, the significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text." Also this is a summary style article; not all that information should be included. The tables are available in the daughter article Provinces and territories of Canada. -- Jeff3000 14:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Look again at Misplaced Pages:Embedded list - it recommends that when the contents are the same in paragraph or list form, that list form be used rather than paragraph form --JimWae 05:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I recall that there used to be a table listing the provinces, but it made a real mess of the article. --gbambino 20:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there some ambiguity as to what the term "administrative division" means? It's the sixth item in the table of contents, and one can easily click on it if one would like to know the names of Canada's administrative divisions. As Eron noted, its opening paragraph is very straightforward; there's even a map. There's no need to include a table for a mere thirteen provinces and territories. -- WGee 01:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

If you look here you will see there was little or no consensus for the wholesale changeover to "administrative divisions". My objection to the terminology would be lessened if that section appeared earlier in the article AND if it were in list form, as it would be easier to find - even if one were NOT ALREADY familiar with its being a kind of wiki-style. I do not see how the history section can be very meaningful to someone not already familiar with how the place names are being used. And yes, there is some ambiguity - many provinces existed as entities before joining Canada - and so to call them "administrative divisions" - as though they were divided up into such sections by the federal gov't for ease of administration - can be misleading. Political subunits might work better for all countries, and Provinces & Territories still works fine for Canada. --JimWae 05:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm surprised to see that this is already being addressed. I was reading the article and thinking about "Administrative Divisions" which just sounded wrong in my ears. I think I know why - Canada only has three administrative divisions - the territories. Canada is not divided into provinces, but rather provinces are united into Canada. The point is somewhat subtle, but it's clear that provinces are not ways the country is divided for administrative purposes, but their own entities. Cities are administrative divisions of provinces - provinces can create and eliminate them, merge or divide them, change their boundries on a whim and force them to do whatever else they please. The federal government has no such power over provinces, because provinces are not administrative divisions.

Hmmm... I definitely Support using "Provinces and Territories". I think that having a general rule is silly - some countries shoot directly to the county/municipality level from their national government (meaning they may have hundreds of first-level divisions). At the other extreme, Belgium has only three. Clearly, for Belgium, all of the divisions should be listed and discussed in the main article. For Russia, their 88 "Federal subjects" should not even be listed. However, Canada lies in between, at a level (10/13) where we should probably be listing and giving basic information, but not really discussing. In addition, I would suggest that it is too narrow a definition to suggest that Provinces are just *not* administrative divisions. I believe that calling something an adminstrative division necessarily makes no comment at all about it's existence as it's "own entity". AshleyMorton 15:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Many Americans don't even know that Canada has "provinces" instead of "states." We are targetting a world-wide audience, and in my opinion the best terminology to use so that most people understand what the section is about is the current title. -- Jeff3000 15:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I strongly Support the useage of Provinces and Territories. Yes, we are targetting a world-wide audience. But they are referred to as territories and provinces respectively in Canada. I don't want to dumb down this information just so people who are, quite frankly, too ignorant to learn it. Disinclination 04:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the recent change of the paragraph format to list format is justified. JimWae's edit summary reads "Administrative divisions - per Misplaced Pages:Embedded list and talk." I would note that Misplaced Pages:Embedded list explicitly states that "having lists instead of article text makes Misplaced Pages worse, not better." It does go on to say that "in some cases however, a list style may be preferable to a long sequence within a sentence," (emphasis mine) but it doesn't detail what those cases are. I don't think the original format here was problematic, and I think it read better as a paragraph than as a list. I also do not think that the change can be justified by referring to this talk page as, by my reading, there was no consensus here in favour of the change. I'm not going to revert it right now, as I'd like to hear what others think, but if there isn't more support than just a single editor's opinion, it should perhaps be changed back. Eron 02:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The majority, if not all, country articles use administrative divisions as the section header. I randomly searched Turkey, Iraq, Portugal, Mozambique, and Argentina. Why sould Canada be an exception? Joelito (talk) 04:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Eron is right. There was no consensus for the change, and Misplaced Pages:Embedded list explicitly states that "having lists instead of article text makes Misplaced Pages worse, not better. I'm going to revert it back. -- Jeff3000 04:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

NO, Misplaced Pages:Embedded list states:

"Having lists instead of article text makes Misplaced Pages worse, not better. In some cases however, a list style may be preferable to a long sequence within a sentence, compare:"

Both are lists, but list style rather than paragraph style is easier to read & find --JimWae 04:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the list style breaks up the article, and makes it look unstructured. In my opinion it makes the article harder to read. -- Jeff3000 04:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Like someone said earlier in the talk, it had been done before, and it made the article, to put bluntly, ugly. Disinclination 04:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Also of the six editors who have commented above about the way the paragraph is structured, list in prose or list in list style, five of them are ok with the way it is currently. -- Jeff3000 04:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Do style preferences merit a revert? Misplaced Pages:Embedded list clearly supports the change I made - and the flow of text is not blocked by having a list (with no easily identified start & end) within a sentence. --JimWae 04:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your interpreation of Misplaced Pages:Embedded list. In fact I read the opposite way, and as mentioned above the consensus is to keep it the way it is. -- Jeff3000 04:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we make one of those seperate discussion/vote (don't know the actually name, sorry) pages where everyone can vote and decide on what to do, and make a reference back down to this specific point of the talk page. Disinclination 05:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation of "Canada" in French

I added some un-necessary corrections about the "Canada" IPA in French, editing to , as that vowel in more or less centralised in French (as in most other languages). I also added a stress mark because words do have an inherent stress in French, but it's only pronounced when the word is at the end of a group of words.

Call it zealotism, but I strive to make IPA transcription the more complete possible.

Valkari 02:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Please update International rankings table with new data

In the International rankings table there is an updated Press Freedom Index for 2006, canada is not 16th place out of 168

hogangeo 11:01, 2 November 2006 (EDT)

Template creep

It appears that this article is slowly accumulating more footer templates, yet again. We've already had this discussion, but...which templates do we eliminate, if any? Some can and should be moved to sub-articles (for example - countries of the Atlantic Ocean to Geography of Canada, or something similar). Opinions? Mindmatrix 01:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Since it is below the content, why does it matter if there is alot of it? HighInBC 02:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Brevity. Relevance. Readability. Avt tor 01:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the navbox galore is getting ridiculous. Many would better be suited for sub-artilces (like Geography, Politics, History, Military or Culture). --Qyd 15:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

They are annoying, but I've converted the final few that weren't by default in their closed state to being closed, and thus limited their annoyance. I do favour moving some out though. -- Jeff3000 16:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Animated GIF

The animated gif of the territorial evolution of Canada is messing up the formatting, causing a gap in the text between the "History" heading and the text of that section. I think this is a cool animation, but I don't know if it belongs in a brief summary-style article like this. --thirty-seven 07:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I think it better belongs in History of Canada. -- Jeff3000 14:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a shame that animated GIFs do not resize well, if it is disruptive to the formatting it should be removed. Perhaps somebody can resize it with an external program? HighInBC 15:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

How would this work? Image:Canada provinces evolution-250.gif --Qyd 23:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It cetainly is less obtrusive, but the text is meaningless. HighInBC 23:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

GIF files are not allowed in GNU sites becuase of the LZW Algothithm used for compression Zack3rdbb 03:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The GIF patent is now expired; are you sure that your statement is still correct? If so, given that the patent is no longer an issue, why are GIFs not allowed? --Nephtes 15:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

We use GIFs all the time here, there are thousands of them. HighInBC 21:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture Gallery

I was wondering if anybody was considering adding a picture gallery? I saw some in other country's articles, like Serbia, Spain, and Bulgaria and believe Canada deserves one. Lt. penguin 22:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Motto

In the moto it is not from sea to sea. It is From coast to coast or From an ocean to the other Ad mari Ad mare means Coast or Ocean not sea Usque means The other. I'm latin so I know that :oP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.122.215.22 (talk • contribs)

Canada: "American Sovereign State" or Not?

"Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor; born 21 April 1926) is Queen of 16 sovereign states."

One of these sovereign states is Canada. Now, looking at the list of Monarchys in America, Canada is the sole American Sovereign State (Monarchy). Isn't the Queen of Canada the sole American Sovereign since there are no other Monarchys in America which their Government recognizes? NOTE: I am emphasizing "American Sovereign" as she should be recognized as a "European Sovereign" just as alike as a "American Sovereign" respectively.

Bottom line: She should be included as an American Sovereign and Canada as the American Sovereign State (Monarchy) respectively.

I find no reason to as the United States being allowed "Super-Power" and Canada not mentioned as the "American Sovereign State". Intuitionz 20:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Great circuitous logic-izzle. Now 533 WP:TROLL CMacMillan 20:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The term American Sovereign State is rarely used. The context that you appear to be using it in would be a Constitutional-Monarchy with the British Monarch as its' figure Head-of-State. In North America and South America there are several British Dominions (i.e., a Dominion), prime of which is the Dominion of Canada.

ArmchairVexillologistDon 21:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a bit confused by all that. Can someone please translate? HighInBC 21:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Which part? My biting the Troll, or what he's trying to push? CMacMillan 21:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A: Canada is a member of America. (North America) B: Canada is a member of The Organization of American States (OAS) C: Canada aknowledges it's membership as an American Sovereign State Intuitionz 21:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A+B+C cannot = D unless a reliable source has already made that assertion(atleast on wikipedia), see WP:OR#Synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position. HighInBC 21:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That is the website of the Latin America and Caribbean bureau of Canada's Department of Foreign Affairs. And, in normal Canadian usage, Canada is not part of 'America'; Canada is part of 'the Americas'. And, all states are sovereign states, not just those with sovereigns. And sovereignty and monarchy are separate concepts. And... what was the point again? Eron 21:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This is my fault, I shouldn't have fed the troll, but everyone has a judgement slip. This is a "user" who usually shows up after previous discussions are archived to offer semantic piffle. Such as The American State of Canada or a proposal that United Empire Loyalists were Loyalists of the United Empire (a precursor of the United States), rather than Empire Loyalists who were United. Get it? . CMacMillan 21:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree "Canada" YES, Is part of The Americas (North America) Americas or whichever version, but since when is Germany not a European State or France or England just as alike in Canada's case considering the Americas? So you are saying YES Canada is in America, North America, the Americas but it is not one of it's States? Please clarify WHY? You cannot be apart of the Americas and disclose immunity at the same time. Either Canada is part of the Americas or it isn't? If so, shall be in fact an American Sovereign State. I agree there is no reference as of yet except the Canadian Government (http://americascanada.gc.ca) but can we use PLAIN ENGLISH SENSE PLEASE in this case? Denial and NPOV don't cut it. Intuitionz 19:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Do we need to vote if Canada is in the Americas? Intuitionz 19:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, you need a reliable source making this claim, or it is original research. HighInBC 19:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Final Offer of Sources:

• Canada: located in the Geographic Americas (http://atlas.gc.ca) (Government of Canada)
• Canada: Member as the 33rd American State (Organization of American States) (OAS)
• Canada: Recognizes itself as part of the Americas. (http://americascanada.gc.ca) (Government of Canada)
• Canada: Please refer to the proper definition of State. Which does mean Government.

I'm sorry there is nothing else I can do in plain English common sense to prove Canada is a Sovereign Government (Country) of the Americas. (American State) Intuitionz 19:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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