Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dominic (talk | contribs) at 20:45, 11 November 2006 (→Steele359 Abuses: we won't entertain requests from trolls like that, especially with no attempt at dispute resolution besides ranting.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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A request for Arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution. Before requesting Arbitration, please review other avenues you should take. If you do not follow any of these routes, it is highly likely that your request will be rejected. If all other steps have failed, and you see no reasonable chance that the matter can be resolved in another manner, you may request that it be decided by the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom).

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Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and (exceptionally) to summarily review new evidence and update the findings and decisions of a previous case. Review is likely to be appropriate if later events indicate the original ruling on scope or enforcement was too limited and does not adequately address the situation, or if new evidence suggests the findings of fact were significantly in error.

The procedure for accepting requests is described in the Arbitration policy. If you are going to make a request here, you must be brief and cite supporting diffs. If your case is accepted for arbitration, the arbitrator or clerk will create an evidence page that you can use to provide more detail. New requests to the top, please. You are required to place a notice on the user talk page of each person against whom you lodge a complaint.

0/0/0/0 corresponds to Arbitrators' votes to accept/reject/recuse/other. Cases are usually opened at least 24 hours after four net accept votes are cast; that is, four more accept than reject votes. When a case is opened, a notice that includes a link to a newly created evidence page will be posted to each participant's talk page. See the Requests section of the arbitration policy page for details. "Recuse" means that an Arbitrator has excused themselves from a case because of a possible, or perceived, conflict of interest. Cases which have not met the acceptance criteria after 10 days will be removed from this page.

This is not a page for discussion, and Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment. Please do not open cases; only an Arbitrator or Clerk may do so.

See also

• Arbitration policy
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy/Past decisions
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/How to present a case - Recommended reading: An (unofficial) guide to presenting effective Arbitration cases.
• Arbitration enforcement - Any user can request help here if it involves the violation of an ArbCom decision
• Administrator enforcement requested (shortcut WP:RFAr/AER)
• Developer help needed
• Arbitration template

How to list cases

Under the Current requests section below:

• Click the "" tab on the right of the screen appearing above the section break line;
• Copy the full formatting template (text will be visible in edit mode), omitting the lines which say "BEGIN" and "END TEMPLATE";
• Paste template text where it says "ADD CASE BELOW";
• Follow instructions on comments (indented), and fill out the form;
• Remove the template comments (indented).

Note: Please do not remove or alter the hidden template

Current requests

PAIN case against Sugaar

Initiated by Sugaar at 16:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved by Sugaar at Sugaar 17:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

(Shell Kinney is right: she accepted my mediation request but I misread her. Please remove).

Involved parties

• User:Sugaar
• User:Shell Kinney, as administrator

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Yes both parties- defendants are notified

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

I tried to persuade Shell Kinney to go to mediation but she kept talking in circles in patronizing tone. After several days of useless discussion and no results in the direction of her accepting mediation, I decided I have no choice but to appeal at the ArbCom. --Sugaar 16:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by {Sugaar}

Context: this particular dispute, and the PAIN case that originated it, is part of a major escalation of conflict at the White people article (see:Talk:White people), involving:

• Several veteran (and in my judgement honest and serious) wikipedians (User:LSLM, User:Wobble, User:Psychohistorian and others, including myself) that tried to keep the page NPOV, despite being subject of continuous vandalizing by mostly anonymous users of obvious white racist ideology.
• User:Thulean (a new user), and partly also User:Dark Tichondrias, who tried to POV-push the article in favor of their POV, disregarding consensus guidelines and WP:NPOV policy.

The contextual dispute has brought an empty RFC, a seemingly failed RFM (Cabal, see: Talk:White people/Mediation) and the total protection of the page while the conflict is solved.

Specifics: One of the first steps of that scalation was Thulean spamming my user page, pressing discussions on his ideology and bogus threats of blocks. Soon after he used it as "evidence" to launch the first of many PAIN and RFI demands against other people who disagreed with him are were somewhat bold in expressing it (a clear example of WP:WL).

This case is about the particular PAIN against me (diff of the archive/removal of the case). There were three contradictory resolutions by different administrators:

• Shell Kinney warned me (in my user talk) for personal attacks for using the descriptive and relevant terms "nazi" and "racist". She did not mention the warn in the case. The warn read:

Calling another editor a nazi, regardless of whether you think it is true, is completely unacceptable. If you continue, you may be blocked for personal attacks. Please find a more civil way to discuss your concerns about the article. Shell babelfish 19:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Durova stated that:

Administrator blows referee whistle - This is not the place to debate ideology. Per the instructions at the top of this noticeboard, page diffs are required for reports here - not unsupported allegations or links to Misplaced Pages discussions. I did a search on Yahoo and did find Nazi websites that use "Thulean" and "Thule" in their titles, so - strong as the statement from Sugaar was - it appears to be fact-based and valid. There are two sides to WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA that apply to this particular discussion: first, standards of civility at Misplaced Pages do not depend on what ideology an editor holds; second, discourse on certain sensitive topics may require the judicious use of terms that would otherwise be eschewed as hot button and inflammatory (such as when the topic at hand actually is Nazism and racism). This noticeboard cannot mediate a content dispute. It can evaluate and take appropriate actions in response to personal attacks. Durova 23:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(most bold type is mine to emphasize the contradictions with Shell Kenney's warn).

• Luna Santin stated:

*PAIN is not a dispute resolution forum. Not to be too harsh, but we need to keep things here neat, orderly, and to a pretty narrow subject material. I'm interested in personal attacks; I'll keep an eye on this for the time being, but I'd encourage all of you to just try to settle down a bit and resolve your differences through the usual dispute resolution process instead of trying to get each other blocked. If attacks continue or escalate, please provide diffs to support any reports made here. Thanks in advance. Luna Santin 09:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

(a "no relevance" resolution)

So I asked the warn removed or at least clearly reviewed, as the different administrators had resolved different things. But Shell Kinney archived/removed the case without allowing more time for it and without a clear resolution. I protested that was hiding the dirt under the rug but got no replies. I also protested at her talk page but, as said above, we only talked in circles and she never accepted my request to go to mediation.

My request is that the warn is reviewed and that a clear resolution is issued.

Note: I fear that this mishandled case gave air to Thulean to keep wikilawyering against other editors who opposed his views, with or without reason. It also made me (and possibly other serious wikipedians) to feel gagged. At some point I had to recuse myself from the mediation cabal because I felt I could hardly express my opinions being under (apparent, unclear) warn and therefore danger of block.

--Sugaar 16:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Shell Kinney

Sugaar has a lot to say about Thulean. He repeatedly calls him a vandal, nazi or racist , , accuses him of harassment and generally fails to assume good faith. , , , , .

He seems to feel that because he believes his statements to be true or that Thulean is just pretending to be offended by the statements, that absolves him of following our policy on personal attacks., He's now claiming that all of this can be swept under the rug of wikilawyering. or a violation of his free speech.

I stated several times that I would be happy to engage in whatever form of dispute resolution he desired, including mediation.,

I don't believe there's anything here for the ArbCom.

Comments by Thulean

It should be also noted that this page in question, White people is in meditation. It was me who applied for meditation. And even our meditator warned Sugaar to cease personal attacks. Thulean 17:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Comments by PinkPup

Sugaar is friends or even possibly Euskata himself.--PinkPup 17:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)

Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University

Initiated by 195.82.106.244 14:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Involved parties

• 195.82.106.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Riveros11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), signs as avyakt7

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Yes both parties- defendants are notified

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Direct discussion Requests for mediation - other party would not agree to third party involvement.

Statement by 195.82.106.244

"My request is simple. In Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, it is stated that the use of self-published or otherwise "dubious sources" in articles about the author(s) of such material is permitted within certain limited grounds, ."

An NPOV has occured, firstly, due to avyakt7 interpretation that this policy only allows the self-publishing author themselves to use such material. This is so clearly wrong that I chose to ignore. But, secondly, due to his utter refusal to allow any input whatsoever of self-published material, even when it fits the above state limitations.

• Could I please have an official clarification of the limits of such use?

The BKWSU has been referred to as both a New Religious Movement and a Cult. User avyakt7 is a recruiter for the group and engaging with a team of BK followers to re-edit the article in its favour. At core, BKWSU beliefs are based on the spiritual possession of its founder and channelled messages from spiritual beings, which they claim to be both "God" and "Adam" respectively through various mediums, at first the founder and currently an old Indian lady at their headquarters. Latterly, seeking status by association with governmental and UN agencies, the BKWSU has sought to hide these references although they are clearly documented by academic experts and referred to as channelling and mediums by the organization in English and Hindi terms, e.g. see institutional headed note paper; , , .

My questions regards "easily verifiable", does this allow for the use of BKWSU self-published materials? Specifically;

a) reference to material from BKWSU published & purchasable books, teaching aids or widely used posters etc b) reference to BKWSU published websites c) reference to BKWSU scriptures called "Murlis"

With respect to the latter, although I appreciate that the Wiki is not a place for scriptural debate, given that it has over 2000 centers worldwide and that their scriptures are clearly identified, dated and many published; I would consider that any reference to a specific Murli would classify as "easily verifiable" by any individual by attending a centers and requesting it by date. Especially when the scriptural reference is a defining contradiction to the organization's PR, e.g. Avyakt Murli 25/10/69, "The final Destruction of the whole World takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced", Avyakt Murli 05/11/70 :"From this journey, it is 5 years for Destruction" or clearly referenced teaching posters, e.g. where it shows Atomic War via Russia and America and “Confluence Age 40 years” respectively, references BKWSU proponents have removed.

If we look at two similar topics, e.g. Scientology and Christianity, I see that reference to self-published or scriptural material, e.g. "Dianetics" or "The Bible", is wholly acceptable and I refute avyakt7 refusal to allow such in this topic just because it does not fit in with the organization's current PR or recruitment tactics.

• Lastly, given the nature of claims, is it safe or “weasel word” to state “allegedly God" when referring to this possessing spirit? Contrary to avyakt7 my thought is that it is safer to do so.

Statement by avyakt7

(Please limit your statement to 500 words. Overlong statements may be removed without warning by clerks or arbitrators and replaced by much shorter summaries. Remember to sign and date your statement.)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)

Iran-Iraq War

Initiated by ^demon at 23:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Marmoulak (talk · contribs) Notified
• Marky48 (talk · contribs) Notified
• Khosrow II (talk · contribs) Notified
• L0b0t (talk · contribs) Notified
• CJK (talk · contribs) Notified
• ^demon (talk · contribs) - Only as filing on behalf of the MedCom, no actual involvement in dispute. I refuse to deal with this user (Marky48) anymore.

Previous attempts at dispute resolution:

Request for Mediation which was Rejected by myself today.

Statement by ^demon

Copied+pasted from my rejection of the RfM:

Reject: I was going to notify the two non-signing parties that they needed to sign in order for Mediation to continue, but upon an inspection of Marmoulak's talk page, I came across this section. The comment made by Marky48 (diff), with the edit summary of "Say goodnight Dick," followed by his second comment lead me to believe he is not sincere in mediation, and merely wishes to impose punishment upon those disagreeing with him. For these grounds, I am rejecting mediation, as I feel it will not be conductive. I hereby refer the case to the ArbCom for a binding resolution.

I am tired of dealing with this uncooperative user (Marky48). It is time-consuming, and I'm getting nowhere. Not only that, but as I continue to think about it off-wiki, it's obviously interferring with my everyday life. I'm not dealing with this anymore. -^demon 01:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Marky48

I brought this up for mediation because of multiple reverts with two users who have been writing the article for a year. Both are Iranian and this is only an issue if it affects NPOV. It has been noticed early on in the discussion Talk:Iran-Iraq War it is heavily tilted in favor of Iran who appears guiltless in the whole lengthy piece, and the US and Iraq are hammered using allegations by far left independent journalists and professors inflating the role of the US in instigating and prosecuting the war for apparently their own ends.

"Allegedly there was a secret encouragement by the US administration (President Jimmy Carter, conveyed through Saudi Arabia) which was embroiled in a dispute with the new Islamic Republic of Iran.

My concern is this assertion in the lead paragraph. It's a rumor. All sources have said in their sources that it is an "allegation," and based on one sentence by then SOS Alexander Haig, not exactly a disinterested party in seeing Jimmy Carter fail. Haig refuses to comment on his statement about Carter supposedly "greenlighting" the war and no one has seen the memo, thus, it's a minor allegation. As used by these two editors it's a smoking gun and the lead cause of the war. They've said as much. I erased it; moved it further down in the US involvement section, and added an "allegedly," only the latter remains, albeit with a fight from the two users over it, but allegations don't go in the lead. This isn't a British tabloid.

Moreover, the chemical weapons section is likewise heavily skewed to US contributions which are small in comparision to other countries and identified in the article. No worries, a small US company gets the lead graphs, and two Bell helicopters the indictment for deliberately spreading chemicals over the citizenry of Irag and Iran. These two seem to think that if a journalist says it it's gospel truth. In every case here they report an allegation not a proven fact. Sure it's a source, but an inconclusive one, thus the claim should not be in a neutral piece. I have a journalism degree and if we had written this piece for a class we'd have flunked. It's screamingly biased and so flooded with sources that anyone reading the leads would just accept that position. They won't see anything else. That's why allegations work so well as propaganda.

And one statement on personal conduct. It is insulting to be goaded and refuted after weeks of argument for attempting to get an infractor to go to mediation. I failed at that but let's not make this about minor process infractions, albeit extremely subjective. For example a so-called personal attack is identified in a response to an attack and slur, and the original slur just goes unpunished. That just happened here and it can occur frequently. Don't let the guilty get away with this. They play the administrators here like a Tennessee fiddle. It's not right or helpful and is a side issue at best. The content is where the focus should be not personalities.

Marmoulak (talk · contribs) refused to sign the mediation. He's the only one who wouldn't and since he is the gist of the problem that pretty much killed the mediation not anything I said or did in trying to change his mind according to Demon. That's a fallacy of false cause. He knows he'll fail under scrutiny. I've outlined why.

Is there an arbitration committe member who isn't from England? And keep in mind my lineage comes from Colburn, Yorkshire. The Iranian kid won't sign on to a mediation. What part of that is unclear? How do we get mediation without enforcement capability? I'm afraid I don't follow this sort of pretzel logic. Perhaps someone could explain this angle to me?Marky48 03:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of edit war over these same edits.Marky48 16:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

As per the coment from SAJordanThis user is a stalker from another article and is trying to use character assassination as a form of revenge for contesting his edits. They're allowing the dits to stand as a limited use source e.g. blogs but that's a legitimate challenge. Most of the editors on the disemvoweling article are friends of the blog in question and the blogger herself edited the article on herself for a time to provie the context of the complaints. This attack has nothing to do with actual editing content on this article (which seems to be stabilizing) and should be disregarded.

When groups of editors who share a particular genre affinity and POV inline with the subject of an article get to oust anyone who disapproves and trying to maintain NPOV it makes a mockery of the system and is group bullying. So far adminstrators are falling for it. That's an opinion supported by facts contained in the edits. As you can see here they have a close network setup and no one can touch the article without warnings going out. They even call Will Beback "biased' against the subject, thus he was forced to compromise and allow it. I respect Will's decsion but they clearly sandbagged him. The post just linked proves it.

It's also pretty evident that the rejection of this mediation was done out of an overly emotional reading of my comments. No one can determine my desire for mediation is nil as demon has when it was I that requested it. Circular logic. Marky48 00:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

"I am tired of dealing with this uncooperative user (Marky48)"

I consider this a personal attack and false on its face. On the contrary, I'm the only one in this who HAS cooperated. I'll take a good argument from anyone but I won't take a bad one at all regardless of the source or status. My edits outlined above have been restored. The other areas in question in this article, which has been tagged for cleanup, are under edit wars still with the same editors I was, but it's between them and the others listed in this complaint. This is not about me, it's about the article so I'm getting a George Armstrong Custer feeling about the whole thing at this point. Marky48 02:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment from Uninvolved User Newyorkbrad

Based on the types of comments the arbitrators have made in other cases recently, I think they are likely to request more specific evidence that there is a problem with this article and the user conduct relating to it, including specific diffs, before they can consider accepting the case for arbitration. The diffs above and in the mediation request reflect some incivility, but do not yet establish problems at the level that usually lead ArbCom to accept a case. I'm just putting this here to save some time if the initiator of the case or anyone else want to post additional information before the arbitrators start commenting/voting. Newyorkbrad 01:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment from User SAJordan

(uninvolved in this present issue, but previously involved with one party on another topic)

I asked ^demon whether a pattern of incivility by the same user (against other Wikipedians, on other topics, as showing character) would be relevant information for this arbitration, and was told yes, so... Please consider the pattern of personal attacks on other editors, as shown in Talk:Disemvoweling. – SAJordan _contribs 23:07, 10 Nov 2006 (UTC).

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/2/0/0)

• Reject. Only shallow grounds given for not taking this seriously to mediation. Charles Matthews 10:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Reject, as per Charles Matthews. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Accept, mediation was rejected. Fred Bauder 03:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Israeli POV

Initiated by Carbonate at 03:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Involved parties

• User:Carbonate
• User:Nielswik
• User:Cafzal
• User:Isarig
• User:Tewfik
• User:Elizmr
• user:Jayjg

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Carbonate 03:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Talk:Casualties_of_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict talk
• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Casualties_of_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict refused by Isarig and Tewfik.

As first party, you may feel tempted to add a summary here. If you do, make it a single sentence of not more than twenty words. Please make your case in your statement.

Statement by User:Carbonate

User:Isarig has accused me of numerous things including POV, SOAPBOX and OR while engaging in those very acts or requiring them for any compromise. Requests for mediation have been refused and any reasonable dialog has come from the neutral 3rd parties. The page in dispute was finally locked by an admin that is also pro-israeli after it was again reverted to exclude the chart in question. The comment on the lock was "work it out in talk" despite a refusal for any compromise in talk and a refusal to mediate. Although Isarig has not commited 3RR violations, other pro-israeli editors conviently show up when 3RR has been exhausted.

Requested evidence of edit waring

I would also like to add that no compromise was reached despite efforts by CP/M of Misplaced Pages Neutrality Project who made suggestions of which most (if not all) of the initial ones were implemented in the current version. After these initial changes were made, Isarig continued to revert at which point I filed for mediation. Almost five days passed before a response was made by Isarig or Tewfik to the medation and they pointed to further suggestions by CP/M which were found to be unacceptable by everyone else as compromise that was imminent and refused mediation on that basis.

Isarig also fails to mention in his statement that the numbers he wants included are contested as WP:RS in this and other articles which he is participating in an edit war. .

Requested evidence of biased editing

Bias against arabs

Bias for Israel

I am limiting myself to 3 on each but I can provide many more if requested. These, I think, show the trend. Carbonate 07:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by {Isarig}

I have not refused mediation. At the time mediation was proposed, a compromise was reached by the editors who participated in the content dispute, so there was no point in mediating it. Carbonate was the only one who refused that compromise. The POV nature of the chart he insists on adding is explained in detail on the Talk page. In short, a Pie chart can inherently present only one set of numbers, while there are multiple such sets in this case, and Carbonate insists on using just one set, and has explicitly admitted that set discounts the claims of one side.

Statement by Elizmr

I agree with the statement by Isarig above. Elizmr 22:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by (uninvolved party) JoshuaZ

This is largely a content dispute and in any event has not gone through any prior dispute resolution. JoshuaZ 04:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by (not listed party) Amoruso

I agree with the statement by Isarig above. Amoruso 06:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Tewfik

In Talk:Casualties of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict#Compromise suggestion, CP\M suggested a compromise that was accepted by all parties (from both sides of the discussion) except for Carbonate, which is why the mediation opened then was deemed unnecessary. If mediation is felt to still be necessary, so be it, but the proper avenues of dispute resolution are far from being exausted. Tewfik 06:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Nielswik

I agree with Carbonat --Nielswik_(talk) 11:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0)

• Please present evidence of a problem of behavior, like edit warring or incivility. Dmcdevit·t 19:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Tentatively reject. Although the presentation of this request is poor, I can tell that the edit warring here looks bad, but it should be mediated first. Dmcdevit·t 02:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• I might accept if you show biased editing, but you don't even show that. Fred Bauder 14:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Reject; doesn't seem enough for an arbcom case (yet, at least). Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Reject. Charles Matthews 22:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Requests for clarification

Requests for clarification from the Committee on matters related to the Arbitration process. Place new requests at the top.

/Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek and /Moby Dick

It would appear that I am under the continuing harassment by User:Davenbelle (aka User:Moby Dick) and User:Stereotek (aka User:Karl Meier aka commons:User:Igiveup). see: Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Disputes#Complaint_about_abuse_of_adminship_by_Cool_Cat.

While I understand other projects are beyond the grasp of en:Arbcom, I'd like a way to deal with this issue. At the very least an arbcom opinion on the matter (non-binding as far as commons is concerned perhaps but would be a notable opinion).

--Cat out 16:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba request nr. 2

Dispute about the fact whether an article about Sathya Sai Baba in salon.com qualifies as a reliable source. article in salon.com This question has already been treated extensively in mediation. Now user:SSS108 changed his opinion because he states that salon.com is a self professed tabloid and because he states that it is only published online. He says that he was unaware of this during mediation. Andries 17:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I propose a centralized discussion for the question whether salon.com is a reliable source. Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. Andries 23:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

During mediation, I was under the impression that Salon.com was a published magazine. Since that time, I have since discovered that Salon.com is exclusively an internet tabloid. Goldberg's article is only available as an internet resource and has never been published by multiple reliable media sources. It is only available on Salon.com. David Talbot (founder of Salon.com) described Salon.com as a "progressive, smart tabloid" . When it comes to Biographies Of Living People, the standards are higher and stricter when the material in question is critical and potentially libelous. Since this article contains critical, negative and potentially libelous information against Sathya Sai Baba, it does not (in my opinion) meet the standards for reliable sources as outlined in WP:BLP and WP:RS. SSS108 21:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Arguing that salon.com is not a reliable source is on the verge of evidencing bad faith. How many strikes will people get? JBKramer 22:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon.com, as an online tabloid, is generally considered reliable because their articles are published by reputable or reliable sources. The article in question has not been published by other reputable or reliable sources. The article looks and sounds like a tabloid-article and it is suspect for this reason alone. No one is attacking Salon.com as an entity. Rather, due to Salon's online tabloid status, the article in question has it's reliability in question. SSS108 00:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with JBKramer that SSS108 attempts to remove information sourced to salon.com is close to being disruptive. Salon.com is never on paper and is used extensively throughout Misplaced Pages for living people, because it is a fine, accessible reputable source. It is irrelevant by whom or where is salon.com is cited because salon.com itself is a reputable source. The only reason why SSS108 wants to make an exception for the Sathya Sai Baba article seems to be because he does not agree with the critical stance of the Salon.com article on Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 00:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Salon has an editorial board, an editor-in-chief, and an extensive corrections section. I see no reason not to treat it as a reliable source.Thatcher131 00:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I made my case here: & . People are confusing Salon.com with a particular tabloid article on Salon.com, a self-professed online tabloid magazine (that has not been published anywhere else except on Salon.com). This particular article does not meet Misplaced Pages's policies of reliable sources, in my opinion. SSS108 06:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the Salon article is a reliable source for the fact that there are numerous allegations. I would not use material regarding any particular allegation. That relies only on the victim's testimony. Any particular reported instance may easily be false. Salon is not a tabloid in the sense that its contents are reasonably considered unreliable. Fred Bauder 17:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Fred, so are you saying that the following articles can be cited on Misplaced Pages? Since I do not hold a favorable opinion of Scalia, I will cite Salon.com and it's article about him to support the widely held opinion that he is "martyr", is a "a poster boy for intolerance, vitriol and questionable ethics", writes "masterpieces of contemptuous nastiness" and turns up "the volume on his vitriol so high that it's hard to hear anything" . Fantastic! SSS108 19:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Violating WP:POINT is a blockable offense. JBKramer 19:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

JBKramer, ArbCom is setting the standards. Are these the standards that ArbCom is saying are allowable? The above example shows the flaw in the reasoning of allowing stand-alone sources (which can be used and abused to push an agenda). I am surprised that no one is concerned about this. If Salon.com is allowed as a reliable stand-alone reference, anyone can make the argument that I just made above and get away with it. SSS108 19:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not a court, and you are not convincing anyone. I suggest you stop now. JBKramer 19:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I will, once other ArbCom members hopefully comment on it. And I will accept their majority opinion on this matter. I am not alone in my objection either. SSS108 20:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Highways - request reexamination of probation ruling

I'm told this is the appropriate place to come for this appeal. In July, I was placed on probation as part of the decision in this RfA. I do not believe this decision was just, and I have chosen not to participate as an editor at Misplaced Pages rather than continue editing while subject to an unjust probation. In the nearly four months since that decision, I believe, subsequent events have demonstrated rather starkly that arbitrator Fred Bauder's initial assessment of the cause of the dispute was correct, and that JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, and I should never have been placed on probation in relation to this matter. In addition, the underlying dispute has been harmoniously resolved, which suggests that the need for probation, assuming such need ever existed in the first place, has now ended. Accordingly, I request that this probation be formally lifted. Thank you. —phh (/_c) 01:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Motion made at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration.2FHighways.23Probation. Fred Bauder 20:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In response to the points below: a) JohnnyBGood just left the project, leaving at least a few months of good behavior behind him (from July until now). b) My block was controversial, but if my probation is not lifted for a while because of it I will understand; however it should not reflect poorly on the other editors. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, I'm right here in case anyone had wondered. I just blanked my talk page and userpage :) JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 01:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Lyndon LaRouche

User:SlimVirgin reverted this edit by 172.194.169.47, with no editing memo explanation. I didn't see the need to do that, so I put the external link back in this edit. SlimVirgin then left a message on my talk page implying that I could be blocked for doing so. I asked for clarification as to whether she was threatening me with a block, and she replied with these words.

I don't plan to replace the external link on the Lyndon LaRouche article, but I would like to know whether SlimVirgin is accurately describing the Arbitration Committee ruling, and whether it really applies to an external link on the Lyndon LaRouche article. There are about 19 footnotes and external links to LaRouche websites on the Lyndon LaRouche article. Are they all forbidden by the Arbitration ruling as well? If not, what makes this particular link different? Please post your answer at Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche#Policy_Question so that other editors will be aware of it. Thanks in advance for your time. --ManEatingDonut 22:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

SlimVirgin may have been confused. The relevant ArbCom ruling, in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Lyndon LaRouche, states:

• Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Misplaced Pages article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles.

Thus, LaRouche sources may be used for LaRouche articles. However the link that was added was not relevant to the biography of Lyndon LaRouche, and should haev been remoevd for that reason, not for violating this ruling. -Will Beback 03:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

First, for the benefit of the ArbCom, the issue is that the LaRouche publication ManEatingDonut wanted to link to was about a living person.

Will, I would interpret the ArbCom rulings as meaning that LaRouche publications may not be used as sources about third parties, regardless of whether it's in articles about LaRouche or elsewhere. (There's the ruling you quoted, and there was mention of the issue during a case involving Chip and again in relation to Cognition, but I'd have to search for them.) ArbCom apart, the content policies indicate that LaRouche publications may only be used in articles about the LaRouche movement to make points about that movement, and may not be used as third-party sources, whether in articles about LaRouche or anywhere else. The relevant policies are WP:BLP and WP:V. The latter says that sources of dubious reliability — defined as "sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight" — may be used in articles about themselves so long as the material "does not involve claims about third parties ..." SlimVirgin 07:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• SlimVirgin is correct here. The ban on LaRouche publications being used for any other subject than LaRouche and related subjects includes attempts to get around it by talking about other people on the LaRouche articles. LaRouche publications are useful sources about LaRouche's views about LaRouche himself and his organisations / affiliated parties, but are not acceptable sources about anyone or anything else. Will Beback is also correct that in any case the link given was not on topic for the article and thus deletable anyway. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 14:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Explained that way, it seems like a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the ruling. -Will Beback 23:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I have looked over the article in question (the one that was the target of the external link) and it appears to me that it is entirely "relevant to the biography of Lyndon LaRouche." It discusses many of LaRouche's various campaigns and issues. It is mainly a rebuttal of the theories of Berlet, theories which dominate most of the Misplaced Pages articles on LaRouche. But I am mainly interested in a precise clarification of what the Arbitration ruling means, because I have seen Berlet threaten other editors with this ruling as well (see Talk:National_Caucus_of_Labor_Committees#Disputed.) Perhaps there should be clarification on this example as well. The edit that appears to have provoked the threat is here. --ManEatingDonut 15:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The material on the external link mainly concerned Chip Berlet, not LaRouche, thus removal was appropriate. Fred Bauder 20:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There is an additional issue that was under consideration in the first LaRouche case - the fact that LaRouche organizations publish an extremely large amount, responding to all criticisms. Excessive citation of this material when describing controversies surrounding LaRouche leaves the mistaken sense of giving LaRouche the "last word" in every dispute. Phil Sandifer 23:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your responses, but may I also ask whether there was something wrong with this edit referred to above? --ManEatingDonut 06:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems OK, perhaps I'm missing something though. Fred Bauder 18:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

But following this way of reasoning means that we should also remove the homepage of Michael Moore from the article Michael Moore because it makes negative statements about George W. Bush. I think that is absurd. Moore is notable because of his criticism of Bush. Andries 18:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make such motions)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Probation

Moved that JohnnyBGood, Rschen7754, and PHenry be removed from the probation imposed at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Probation. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Log_of_blocks_and_bans shows that only SPUI continues disruption with respect to highway names. Fred Bauder 20:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Support:

1. Fred Bauder 20:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose:

1. That the probation is alleged to be failing in regards to SPUI does not appear to be a good argument to remove it for the precise editors it appears to be succeeding for. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 21:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
2. PHenry and JohnnyBGood both left the project. That doesn't demonstrate good behavior, even though they may have empty block logs. Rschen does have a block for violation. Dmcdevit·t 08:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Abstain:

SPUI

With respect to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Highways#Probation based on block log SPUI's block log and the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#SPUI.._again SPUI (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned from Misplaced Pages for one year. Fred Bauder 10:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Support:

1. Fred Bauder 10:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose:

1. While there are a number of blocks, I only count 3 related to his probation conditions. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 08:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Abstain:

1. There is already a provision in our original decision for a longer term block in the case of incorrigibility. "After 5 blocks the maximum block shall increase to one year." The community is free to impose bans before then, of course, but I don't see the need for our intervention. Dmcdevit·t 08:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Archives

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Completed requests
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rejected requests (extremely sparse, selective, and unofficial)

1. Saddam's 'Green Light' By Robert Parry
2. Iraq & geopolitics, by Henry C K Liu
3. The Longest War: The Iran-Iraq Military Conflict (1991), pp. 71-72

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution