Talk:Christian persecution complex

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Comment made on 28 February 2018

See Misplaced Pages:Help_desk#I_have_just_contributed_my_first_article!_How_can_I_get_it_reviewed? Legacypac (talk) 09:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

"...which is synonymous to persecutory delusion"

Dear Dimadick the pharse "The name derives from term "persecution complex", which is synonymous to persecutory delusion." is misleading. The term "Christian Persecution complex" has been coined and populirized by academics in the field of Humanities. It is not related with delusions (though Charles Dawkins might disagree as he suggests that religious beliefs are a form of delusion). There is no published paper that suggests that is a correlation between the CP complex and a medical disease or condition. More, there is no citation in the text. Therefor, I 'd recommend it should be removed. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 19:04, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Our article on persecution complex is located n persecutory delusion, and you have added no information on word coinage. Dimadick (talk) 19:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, you are right that I didn't add info on word coinage, so when info is missing, we don't jump into conclusions. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 20:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

"we don't jump into conclusions."

I don't jump into conclusions. I am familiar with what persecutory delusions are and how they are used by religions. Added a source as a background. Dimadick (talk) 09:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

The article is about certain christians. Not about cults.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Dear Dimadick, the persecutory delusion you are reffering to, concerns a minority within a neutral majority and how that delusion helps them maintain their passion for their cause. Christian persecution complex describes the feelings of the majority and the net result is suppressing others. Nevertheless, there sure is a connection bwtween these two distinct entities, but I wouldn't describe it as "backround" Τζερόνυμο (talk) 11:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

It is background to what "persecution complex" actually means, and its relevance to cult mentality. And no "Christian persecution complex" does not express a majority of the population, just a few oddballs in the United States. Christians are neither a persecuted, nor a marginalized group. Dimadick (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I never said that Christians are being persecuted in the West. They (christians) are saying that they are being persecuted. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 11:59, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Persecution of Christians in Middle East and other non Western Countries

Persecution of Christians in Middle East and other non Western Countries is not relevant to the topic. Chr. Persecution Complex refers to the notion in Western countries that Christianity is persecuted by their goverment when Christian priviledges are lifted (ie morning prayer at school). In M.East, Nigeria and elsewhere there is real persecution of Christians. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 18:27, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Where can we find this definition?--Skylax30 (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not a definition, it's an explanation. The source you provided (TheGuardian) did not mention Christian Persecution Complex. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:23, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

"morning prayer at school" In the case of the United States, school prayer has not actually ended. Compulsory prayer has ended. "While students do continue to pray in public schools, even in organized groups such as "See You at the Pole", the lawsuit disallowed schools from including prayer as a compulsory activity required of every student. The success of O'Hair's lawsuit led to subsequent lawsuits by Mormon and Catholic families in Texas in 2000 to limit compulsory prayer at school-sponsored football games." Dimadick (talk) 20:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Talking about persecution of Christians in m. East is irrelevant to Christian Persecution Complex. Two articles which were cited, didn't even mention christian persecution complex. Trying to relate persecution in the middle east to justify the persecution compex in the west, is synthesis. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 07:29, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Source www.religionnews.com does mention the pers. complex. On the other hand, sources are not clear if American Christians understand the PS as happening only inside America. That's why I added official declarations of Evangelica organizations referring to international persecution of Christians. But I will work more on that. If I may present user Τζερόνυμο to the english WP collegues, he has a big volume of anti-religious and pro-muslim work in the Greek WP. This particular article was firstly created by him in the Greek WP, and was deleted as original research. (I don't necessarily agree on that deletion). Obviously he is planning to translate this article to Greek again.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

And a small prediction of mine: Soon we will have here one or more of Τζερονυμο's supporters, most probably user names starting with C, G or D.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Source www.religionnews.com does mention the pers. complex only to clarify that persecution complex in USA has nothing to do with real persecution of christians in the middle East. No comment on the rest. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 09:30, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

By George, you got it.--Skylax30 (talk) 10:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Section "Reality of Persecutions"

The view of George Yancey, that there is hostility towards Christians is upgraded as persecution. I 'd suggest that we change the title of the section so as to match the content of the section. Τζερόνυμο (talk) 06:46, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Neutrality

Dear User:Pepperbeast, will you be so kind as to inform us why you have re-inserted the NPOV template? Why is the neutrality of the article disputed? Reminder: Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute "Drive-by tagging is discouraged. The editor who adds the tag should address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies" Τζερόνυμο (talk) 10:30, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Because while drive-by tagging is "discouraged", it is not forbidden and not a reason to remove the tag. PepperBeast (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Τζερόνυμο. The tag can not be added without raising relevant concerns on the talk page. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Merge into Persecution of Christians

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Should this previously AfD nominated article be merged into Persecution of Christians or Christian privilege? Or should it just be kept as is? desmay (talk) 01:40, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Concerns were raised on a recent AfD that this page may seem attack page accusing Christians of suffering from a psychiatric disorder of persecutory delusions. The Center for Studies on New Religions actually found that in the present era, Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world . This contradicts the claim that Christians have a complex. Any sourced material here can be merged into the persecution of Christians article. Excelse (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) Concerns were raised on a recent AfD that this page may seem attack page accusing Christians of suffering from a psychiatric disorder of persecutory delusions. The Center for Studies on New Religions actually found that in the present era, Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world . This contradicts the claim that Christians have a complex. Any sourced material here can be merged into the persecution of Christians article. Excelse (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I added a {{merge from}} to the other article and linked to this discussion in both. I'll remain neutral on whether to merge or not. My only concern is that the other article is already quite large and merging this in might be problematic in that this content might be lost in the fray. This article does lack WP:BALANCE and if that is addressed, it may make a merge unnecessary. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose merge The scope of the article is clearly limited to the United States. The Early Christianity section should be removed entirely - it's not neutrally written and it's discussing Christian polemic (which is a style of writing nasty things about Jews, and later Muslims, in the context of Christians being persecuted). Candida Moss' argument about historicity is being given too much weight (and this is not the right article for it). The writings are not only important for their historicity, but also their impact. Polemic is a literary style that is well-attested to in scholarship, but to say the subject is complicated would be an understatement. Covering it fully is outside the scope of this article.

However, the Evangelical Persecution Complex is sufficiently covered in WP:RS to support a standalone article. (I would support a title change from the vague "Christian"). Seraphim System 12:33, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Not even "Evangelical Persecution Complex" has significant coverage in reliable sources (preferably academic ones) required per WP:GNG. News sources or passing mentions don't establish notability. Excelse (talk) 11:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Conference, Leiden Institute for the Study of Religions International (2004). Religious Polemics in Context: Papers Presented to the Second International Conference of the Leiden Institute for the Study of Religions (Lisor) Held at Leiden, 27-28 April, 2000. Uitgeverij Van Gorcum. ISBN 978-90-232-4133-1.
Tuckett, Christopher M. (2004-01-01). Q and the History of Early Christianity: Studies on Q. A&C Black. ISBN 978-0-567-08406-4.
https://www.facebook.com/EugeneScott202. "Analysis | Kellyanne Conway suggested that recent hate crimes are related to anti-religiosity. But they aren't". Washington Post. Retrieved 2018-11-28. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help); External link in |last= (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
Wilkinson, Alissa (2018-04-03). "How the Christian movie series God's Not Dead fails to be Christian". Vox. Retrieved 2018-11-28.
Noble, Alan (2014-08-04). "Why Do Evangelicals Have a Persecution Complex?". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2018-11-28.

Comment I'm not convinced that this is the best choice of merge. If anything, I think it could be merged to Christian privilege. PepperBeast (talk) 01:06, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

This is a good suggestion. @Walter Görlitz: Can we add a merge tag on Christian privilege as well? Excelse (talk) 11:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I believe that only one merge discussion is to be entertained at a time. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it could easily be merged into that article without WP:SYNTH. The content about Moss' book predates any "Christian privilege". Most of the sources that I have found discussing "Christian privilege" have it rooted in manifest destiny, the Discovery doctrine, etc. - I don't think we can add anything to it beyond what the sources discuss explicitly. Seraphim System 15:09, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. There is no contradiction between the persecution of Christians around the world and the alleged persecution complex of a minority of Christians in the West. It is crystal clear in the article that there is no connection to a psychiatric disease.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose Merging false claims of persecution to an article about real persecution would be mixing fact and fiction. Dimadick (talk) 15:31, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Merge This article violates WP:NPOV - we do not have any other articles called "Islamic persecution complex" or "Atheist persecution complex" or "Sikh persecution complex". The only mergeable part of this article is the Hostility towards Christians section, which only contains a few sentences. desmay (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- It is only tangentially related to the topic of this article and should probably be deleted. Elizabeth Castelli's text gives a historical perspective and seems more reliable. Dimadick (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
- Not having other articles persecution complexes, does not violate WP:NPOV obviously, which depends only on its context. More to that, even if it was POV positive, it wouldn't be an argument for merging. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:49, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Pepperbeast, I appreciate that you nominated this essay for deletion in the past. This article is more a compilation of passing mentions in newspaper articles than any legitimately recognized phenomenon. desmay (talk) 01:43, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

That's simply not true. The article is based on the work of academics such as Elisabeth Castelli, Candida Moss, and others. As for merging with Christian Privilege, I suppose that as no RS is listing CP Complex under Christian Privilege (or even associates it), it would be WP:OR and/or WP:Synthesis Cinadon36 (talk) 06:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose The flaws should be fixed rather than serve as a reason to merge the article. Both this and Persecution of Christians (and other similar articles for that matter) have to be improved. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Support merge to either Persecution of Christians or Christian privilege: Per WP:UNDUE and WP:BLOATED. Several of the cited sources are op-ed pieces (HuffPo, Patheos, Christian Today, etc.), and three of the citations are simply there to prove that certain individuals mentioned in the article work for a certain university. Taking those out of the picture, I counted roughly 10-11 reliable and appropriate sources to cite. In the case of the "Christian privilege", this might be a case of WP:CFORK. --1990'sguy (talk) 01:48, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
- I will strongly oppose any merge to Christian Privilege as it would be OR/SYNTH. Though the two seem related with Christian privilege being widely accepted by mainstream scholarship as a real thing and "Persecution of Christians in the United States" being written off as hyperbole, we can't make the connection on our own without reliable sources to support it and it would make the POV issues editors are concerned about even worse. Seraphim System 01:52, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
  - I'm finding myself in agreement with you. How about sending this to AfD? --1990'sguy (talk) 04:50, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
    - I wasn't involved in the last AfD, but I would support. Upon looking at the sources more closely, I don't see how this article can adhere to NPOV—for example the Cavill source, Anglo-Saxons Saints' Lives and Deaths, is one of countless reliable sources about Saints' Lives and martyrdom in early Christianity, but we use Cavill only because he has used the term "Christian persecution complex". Yet, we can't include other sources on the same subject. This makes it impossible for us to not violate WP:WEIGHT, thus unworkable as a CFORK. (Another option I would support is to redirect).Seraphim System 05:30, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
      - Thanks Seraphim System. Please let me know if you decide to AfD this. I definitely will comment. --1990'sguy (talk) 04:20, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

NOTE: Contrary to comments at AfD, this article is far from beautiful. In it's current state it should have probably been nuked or moved to draft as it is now an embarassing mess live in mainspace that someone has to clean up. Unfortunately, I don't think merging it will fix the issues with it. Seraphim System 02:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Support merge. This article is ridiculously outside WP:NPOV territory and anything salvageable within that territory is already covered under the WP:SCOPE of Persecution of Christians and Christian Privilege. As some of the oppose votes above, though, the "early Christianity" section needs to just disappear from the rest of the treatment. If this concept is supposed to be limited to the United States, it should be limited to the United States instead of worded to imagine that Christianity doesn't actually face persecution elsewhere.—Mr Spear (talk) 13:36, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Why is it ourside NPOV territory? Persecution of Christians and C.P.Complex have almost nothing in common. The same goes for Christian privilege. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:58, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Support merge. I also support sending to AfD, as proposed by User:1990'sguy and supported by User:Seraphim System, as it does not have adequate sources, except for one. The original research of one author is not enough to prove notability. --FocalPoint (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Original research? What is the original idea presented in the article that cannot be found in the sources? As for sources, there are more than one that is adequate. Cinadon36 (talk) 15:55, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

The "original research of one author" refers to Elizabeth A. Castelli, who as a professor of an academic institution is expected to produce original research. --FocalPoint (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Original research on the English Misplaced Pages refers to synthesizing claims that haven't been made by a reliable, secondary source. Castelli's publications are considered secondary source and on top of that, her work has been reproduced by other secondary sources. Cinadon36 (talk) 17:51, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

My remark refers to the fact that the only adequate source is the work of one author ("original research of one author"), and not to Misplaced Pages incompatibility of Original Research. --FocalPoint (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Original research of X authors is not a factor in the . Castelli, other scholars, and reliable resources paid attention to the subject.Cinadon36 (talk) 08:34, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

FocalPoint, Seraphim System, Mr Spear, and 1990'sguy - I've started an AfD due to the sentiment that you have all expressed here. You can find it here: Excelse (talk) 12:42, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Clarification about Moss

Though I appreciate the work Cinadon36 has done on the article, there are some pressing issues. As the article creator, he is presumably familiar with the sources so I wonder if he could help sort some of this out. In the Early Christianity paragraph it says:

According to Candida Moss the Christian "persecution complex" appeared during the era of early Christianity due to internal Christian identity politics. Moss suggested that the idea of persecution is cardinal to the worldview of Christianity, noting that it creates the impression that Christians are a minority that are facing a war - even though they are numerically superior.

This seems to be connecting different issues. Christians are not numerically superior during the era of early Christianity. The issue I am seeing is that the article skips over a large amount of Moss' book which disputes the historicity of the early Christian accounts. For that is most likely a ~~POVFORK~~ CFORK, as the entire thing rests on her theory about historicity. Right now, I am leaning towards removing this. Seraphim System 02:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi User:Seraphim System thanks for the question. Moss suggests that the idea of persecution was cultivated in early Christianity -even though they weren't systematically persecuted (with the exception of 10 years known as Diocletian persecution). That idea carried on, after the Christianisation of the Roman Empire. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, but AFAIK there is not wide agreement yet about her historicity argument. Moss, I think, should be discussed in other articles related to the topic so the argument can be given due weight relative to all the sources. Otherwise this would be a POVFORK. I'm also a bit concerned about Moss' argument that this has "carried on" from the time of Eusebius to present day American politics, as I have not seen any other sources supporting this argument. (Which depends on her argument about historicity). It's going to be difficult to discuss this without turning this article into a POVFORK. Castelli, from what I've read so far, seems to be mostly talking about present day "right wing" American Christianity. Seraphim System 13:15, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

But this article is a (strongly biased) POVFORK of Christian persecution and a needless fork of Christian privilege, attempting to get to the same place (modern American claims of anti-Xian persecution are unfounded and the merely the psychic pain of lost privilege) through fairly specious treatment of it as a kind of psychological disorder instead of as a sociological phenomenon.

I mean, good on you guys who are working to clean the place up and at least point to the more scholarly treatments. The continuing use of "sources" such as Salon harm the page's credibility and it's probably better to just let the thing die and go to footnotes or new sections of the less viscerally offensive treatments of the concept.—Mr Spear (talk) 13:57, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

"which disputes the historicity of the early Christian accounts" What historicity? Many of these accounts are based on the works of Eusebius, who is considered unreliable, "dishonest", and biased as a history writer. Though it is somewhat unclear whether he was intentionally fabricating parts of his narrative, or whether he relied on faulty sources. (One of the problems is that Eusebius often quotes lost works by other writers, and some of his suspect accounts may derive from these works. )Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

But I need references to sources that can be used to improve this article ... That's kind of the problem ... there are very few sources dealing with this particular neologism, but very many sources dealing with roughly the same topic. However, there is no clear merge target either. You can't just pass this off as the validity of the historicity argument can be assumed ... is she only talking about Eusebius, or is she talking about Stephen and the content that is actually in the New Testament also? I am still looking through the sources, so if you guys have read them already or have page numbers, that would be helpful.Seraphim System 15:22, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

The text is sourced. It is not significant whether Moss is taking into consideration Eusebius or other Christian authors. She made a point on CP Complex, that point is notable, and our job is to add it to the article, not to pass judgment if she had done a good or bad job. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

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