Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Killiondude (talk | contribs) at 00:58, 18 December 2018 (→alternative: missed a word). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

plan to update page

Hello, I am planning on updating this page and also:

• Misplaced Pages:IRC/wikipedia-en-help (talk)

also, I am planning on updating how information is displayed about IRC on:

• Misplaced Pages:Questions (talk)

I have two primary concerns that I wish to put forward:

1. more general information for users, and especially new users, about how to approach IRC
2. outline policy on how IRC users should edit Misplaced Pages (example: posting IRC logs on talk pages)

I plan to do this over the next month a little at a time and am very open to discussions, reaching consensus, etc.

Thanks!

Seahawk01 (talk) 01:26, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

What do you plan to update it to? Especially considering you've not discussed it with relevant parties, @Seahawk01:?Praxidicae (talk) 01:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Praxidicae: hey, I am discussing with relevant parties. That's what the Talk page is for, right? Seahawk01 (talk) 01:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

No you're not discussing it with relevant parties, you're discussing it with people you have a grudge against. Praxidicae (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Praxidicae on this. The proposal seems to be in bad faith, simply based on a dispute they had on IRC and also a blatant disregard for #wikipedia-en-help's IRC policy by publicly posting logs. --Az1568 (talk) 02:03, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Az1568 I was not aware of the policy at the time, but since then I and another member have made sure all those links have been removed. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Praxidicae: and @Az1568: please see below. Also, don't I have a right, as a member of the Misplaced Pages community, to make a proposal as to how a topic is to be dealt with? I would appreciate it if you both refrain from attacks and stick to the issues. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Proposal to remove IRC chat from WP:Questions page

Hello, I am proposing to remove the information on IRC chat from this page. The freenode IRC chat channels are not in any way affiliated with Misplaced Pages, so I think providing information here is very misleading and makes new users think it is an official part of the Misplaced Pages project.

There are some additional things to note:

• no oversight by Misplaced Pages of the IRC channels
• outside Misplaced Pages's formal channels and procedures
• no IRC public logs
• no records of discussions that lead to edits
• no voting for IRC mods on Misplaced Pages
• Misplaced Pages can easily host an IRC server if the project needs it
• no tags on edits due to IRC conversations, so no tracking

all in all, I find it very much the opposite of the procedures found on Misplaced Pages.

I will make the change and remove the information, but wanted to give a bit of notice first.

Seahawk01 (talk) 02:58, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

alternative

An alternative to removing the IRC chat information is to make more explicit the fact that IRC is not associated with Misplaced Pages, but run independently by volunteers and then link to more "new user" information. More information for new users can be added either at either Misplaced Pages:IRC or Misplaced Pages:IRC/wikipedia-en-help.

Seahawk01 (talk) 01:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

You appear to be doing this on a whim, solely based on a dispute you had on IRC with another editor. Simply for that fact, I'd say any removal would be rather biased, so imo you really shouldn't be removing anything at all. --Az1568 (talk) 01:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Az1568: true, I was initially motivated by a dispute. But, I'm pretty much over that dispute. On the other hand, I feel I was mislead as a new user into believing that the IRC chat was official because of mention on this page. So, I've decided to help out and redo policy on Misplaced Pages:IRC or Misplaced Pages:IRC/wikipedia-en-help plus rework what is on this article. Seahawk01 (talk) 02:02, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

If you took the time to read the page, you'd see there is a governance structure to how Wikimedia's IRC channels are run. So I'm not certain as to why you've proposed to unilaterally remove links to IRC and taking that resource away from everyone without first speaking to any of the folks that help run the IRC channels? --Az1568 (talk) 02:11, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

What constitutes "official"? The IRC channels are run by volunteers, as with basically everything. Vermont (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict):Are you purposely being disruptive? Praxidicae (talk) 01:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Praxidicae not at all. Please see my answer above. Also, please note I am talking on the Talk page about proposed changes, not rashly changing anything yet. Seahawk01 (talk) 02:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Seahawk01: Can you please stop with the forum shopping? It gets confusing and is detrimental to consensus to have a conversation spread out across multiple talk pages. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 02:07, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Cameron11598: I am not forum shopping. I am trying to notify interested members. Why don't you centralize the discussion and we can precede proceed from there. Thanks. Seahawk01 (talk) 02:12, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Seahawk01 Do you mean proceed? Praxidicae (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Praxidicae corrected Seahawk01 (talk) 03:11, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm moving this hang on a second before continuing the discussion --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 02:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC) Done --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 02:23, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Cameron11598 this is great, thank you. Also, I want to discuss this over a period of a week or two. I wasn't planning on discussing it all tonight. Seahawk01 (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Az1568 and Praxidicae: I've centralized the discussion here just a quick fyi ping. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 02:27, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

How is this different than your complaint about IRC at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Suggest_Wikipedia_does_not_mention_IRC_as_a_source_for_help? Natureium (talk) 02:29, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

well, Natureium, I posted that before thinking. Then I thought about it and realized the proper course of action was to propose the changes on the appropriate article Talk pages, notify interested parties, and make the changes. So, I do regret posting to idea lab...that was rash. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:11, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be some major misconception here that there is any sort of "official" Misplaced Pages help. All help, whether on the IRC help channel, or at the Teahouse, is provided by volunteer experienced editors. The IRC help channel is no more or less official than the Teahouse or other help forums on Misplaced Pages, except in that public logging is not allowed due to a variety of privacy concerns (especially for helpees, who may not understand the import of what they are disclosing). Removing the IRC help channel from the help pages would be detrimental as it allows new editors who do not understand how to post to talk pages or have other difficulties that preclude them making use of the Teahouse to ask questions, and to ask questions that are too sensitive to ask publicly. It is also blatantly contentious to post across a wide variety of forums about the same thing. Waggie (talk) 03:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I have summarized the changes I would like to make at User:Seahawk01/IRC. I suggest we reach a consensus and then do a Misplaced Pages:Edit requests. Thanks Seahawk01 (talk) 23:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Okay, time to explain why your changes are off-base:

1. IRC users, on their own initiative, may keep private logs of conversations, which can be helpful when dealing with users who need help spanning multiple days. What aren't allowed are public logs - i.e. a publicly-viewable log. This is in part for those users' own protection; most IRC clients' logs expose the IPs of users who don't have a hostmask in /join messages, and newcomers have been known to leave personal contact information in public channels such as -en-help.
2. All users should not "have equal say". Some channels have very specific requirements to be voiced in them (-en-revdel only allows admins to be voiced, and -en-help has specific requirements for a +v flag, for instance). It is ludicrous to say that someone who has no idea how Misplaced Pages works has any right to help users who likewise have no idea how Misplaced Pages works, or that a non-administrator has any right to be an inquisitor for -en-unblock.
3. Channel operators can, and SHOULD, be able to take unilateral action against trolls in the channels, and indeed they frequently do. What they don't do is take unilateral action against someone who has a legitimate question or gripe, or remove someone who isn't doing anything wrong (like evading a channel ban or harassing people via PM). Most of the time if an op isn't called for blatant trolling they're called in because a helpee is getting belligerent and/or rejecting any answers given them.
4. If an issue is controversial enough that it needs to be discussed on-Wiki, any helper worth their salt can and will point them to the talk page of the article in controversy.
5. "Remind user must also compromise" is useless. This is solely aimed at -en-help, and almost every user who doesn't compromise is either high conflict-of-interest or is more interested in venting their frustrations at someone, not legitimate help. Not to mention that at -en-revdel, wikimedia-tech, and -en-unblock, a user is in absolutely no position to be able to compromise by design.
6. "Avoid powertripping" is redundant. Powertripping channel operators get their flags revoked.
7. If the situation is such that it's patently obvious the user needs blocked on-wiki and someone is raising the alarm on IRC an admin can and should block on Misplaced Pages based on an IRC reply. That's part of why the !admin stalkword exists.
8. While it looks good on paper, in practice most of the people we talk with in -en-help (again, this particular bullet is a gripe with -en-help) are so ignorant of how Misplaced Pages works that (a) they don't know talk pages exist and (b) assume we're employees, not volunteers. This is as much a cultural thing than anything - most of our helpees come from the Subcontinent, and no amount of education we can provide in the course of 30m-3h can change this that rapidly.
9. There is no need to document changes made to an article via IRC. One shouldn't even be making controversial changes based off of an IRC chat anyways, and on the instances where I have edited on behalf of a helpee I have made it clear I'm doing it on behalf of that user, usually explaining why as I do so.
10. Usually when I explain why I am tagging a helpee's article for speedy deletion they point out other articles and claim we're being hypocrites or biased. Most of the time, I helpfully tag these other articles as well as explain that Misplaced Pages is chronically short on admins.
11. The last bullet is redundant. This is a gripe with -en-help specifically, and we already do this (since a fair chunk of people who come in are demanding to know why their page was deleted).

Hope this helps explain everything, including your angry crusade to make -en-help bend to your will because the result you got was not the result you wanted. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 02:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jéské Couriano, I really don't think you are trying to find a consensus here. I, on the other hand, am making an honest effort to correct what I see is wrong in IRC.

In terms of this thread, let me remind you that:

• you guys came in here and attacked me like a swarm of bees (see WP:IRC "When the channels are used to attack Wikipedians, or when IRC discussions are cited as justification for an on-wiki action, the resulting atmosphere is very damaging to the project's collaborative relationships.")
• half you guys attacked me right here to begin with and should just be banned from discussion
• you guys all definitely have a bias, so should not be editing on this topic anyway
• I am perfectly willing to seek other channels of complaint to correct what I think needs correcting on these pages

So, I suggest you tone it down a little and seek to find common ground at least with the spirit, if not the letter, of my proposed edits. Thanks Seahawk01 (talk) 02:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

1. We're not attacking you. There's a difference between attacking a contributor and attacking their poorly-thought-out suggestions; the former is an ad hominem while the latter is good debate strategy.
2. This suggestion is ludicrous on its face and only reinforces the suspicion that you have ulterior motives here, especially as you're the one casting aspersions here.
3. By that logic, this thread should be hatted. You're not without bias - from what I can gather (I was not in channel for the incident in question) you started this crusade when a helper draftified one of your articles as opposed to tagging it for deletion. This is well beyond disproportionate and goes right into the realm of viperesque.
4. Yet you have not. Literally almost everything you have written since that fateful day has either been to try and force these changes through in retaliation for the helpers actually doing you a favour and draftifying your page, or forcibly putting the article in mainspace via copy-pasting, which has resulted in an AfD debate that in all honestly shouldn't have needed to be filed. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 03:13, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Jéské Couriano, I have copied your suggestions to User:Seahawk01/IRCv2 and will try to combine them with User:Seahawk01/IRC over the next week or two. Maybe I can find some sort of common ground. Seahawk01 (talk) 00:25, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I complerely concur with everything Jéské Couriano has said above. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 03:15, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Cameron11598 see above Seahawk01 (talk) 02:43, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

@Seahawk01: I think you need to retract some of your statements above, as they border on personal attacks, in particular your assumption of bad faith, "I really don't think you are trying to find a consensus here." Casting aspersions is a violation of our policy on civility.

Half you guys attacked me right here. Please provide diffs for this assertion or retract this statement.

you guys all definitely have a bias, so should not be editing on this topic anyway, you have a bias as well, although contrary to the others that have expressed themselves here.

you guys came in here and attacked me like a swarm of bees again please provide diffs or retract your statement. Failing to do so is considered a personal attack. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 02:58, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Cameron11598, my reply is do whatever you feel you need to do. I'm not worried. I would prefer if you resolved this issue on my Talk page, second best is through the Teahouse. Finally, if you want to report me, go ahead. Seahawk01 (talk) 00:27, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Cameron11598 you will need to give me some time to respond to what you said above...as in I will fully respond to you over the next week. But, on the other hand, we can just both agree to move beyond this and that would probably be better. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:13, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Jéské Couriano, regarding what you say is an "angry crusade", I've had a perfectly wonderful time on Misplaced Pages until I went into the IRC chat rooms. This is what happened:

• user puts page into draft space
• user disappears saying "doesn't really have the experience"
• two other users gang up on me

this is what I think should of happened:

• user says disagrees with tone of article, offers to help fix
  • puts post on Talk page outlining what needs to be fixed
  • gives me a few days to make changes
• article is much better because of experience

Think about it Seahawk01 (talk) 03:05, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

• Speaking as a regular helper, nine times out of ten the users that come into -help don't know what a talk page is and have a serious competency issue (either conflict of interest or language barrier) that makes helping them on the talk page wildly impractical. Not to mention that this would completely defeat the purpose of -en-help, which is to provide as real-time of help as is possible given Misplaced Pages's and IRC's nature. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 03:22, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

This is to notify everyone I think this is extremely unproductive. I have copied User:Jéské Couriano reply to User:Seahawk01/IRCv2 and will try to combine this with my suggestions at User:Seahawk01/IRC. I do not intend to post here again for at least until after the New Year and plan on working on other things. You all, of course, can contact me on my Talk page. Thanks Seahawk01 (talk) 00:30, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

@Seahawk01: What do you find unproductive? The topic you've raised? The patient replies and dialogue happening? Killiondude (talk) 00:32, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Killiondude, what I find unproductive is the only one who made any effort to discuss editing was Jéské Couriano, so I am just going to stop posting here for two weeks until January. Please post on my Talk page if you have more to discuss. Thanks Seahawk01 (talk) 00:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

This is kind of a tiny corner of Misplaced Pages. I'm sure there's info somewhere about how many watchers this page has that are "active" Wikipedians and it will just be a few dozen. Jeske is nice. So is Cam. They've both made logical comments and have tried to explain the situation to you, but it does not seem like you are willing to understand that your one negative interaction on IRC doesn't mean it is worthless. I will not contact you on your talk page to discuss a topic you raised on a separate talk page. I hope you do what you've mentioned and take some time to reflect on this discussion here, though. Have a good day. Killiondude (talk) 00:58, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I would like to ask everyone posting here to identify their relationship to IRC

In the interests of full disclosure, I am requesting everyone posting here to identify their relationship to IRC. Particularly, I would like to know who is currently in a channel while posting here, who is an admin, etc. Thanks Seahawk01 (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Is this really necessary? Pretty much everyone who's going to be editing this talk page, myself included, is going to be someone who uses IRC in the first place. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 03:29, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Jéské Couriano, I think if someone would start another post in good faith and take maybe 50% of what I proposed, I would probably be in agreement, we could reach a consensus and request an edit and then no, this would not be necessary. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:36, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Pretty much everything you've proposed is either best practice already, too specific to -en-help, or unworkable in real-world circumstances as I've detailed above. —A little blue Bori v^_^v 03:38, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Not sure this is necessary; however I am a group contact for the Counter Vandalism Network on Freenode, and have channel operator privileges in about a dozen different Wikimedia related channels. For a full list of my IRC privileges see Meta:User:Cameron11598/IRC/Channel Access. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ 03:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Seahawk01, it can reasonably be assumed most people commenting on WT:IRC are on IRC in some capacity. Vermont (talk) 03:49, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

my reply to User:Cameron11598

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

this is a placeholder for my reply to User:Cameron11598 which I will fill out next week. Seahawk01 (talk) 03:30, 17 December 2018 (UTC)