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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wstruse (talk | contribs) at 21:29, 18 November 2006 (→Rewrite & Verification). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Another alternative?

One view that seems to missing from this article is actually one of the more popular (among non-Fundamentalist scholars, that is). It holds that the 'decree' should actually be dated from Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt (see Daniel 9:2, Jeremiah 29:10, Jeremiah 30:17-18, Jeremiah 31:38). Further, the Hebrew word 'dabar' is generally thought to be mistranslated in the KJV - in fact, it means 'word' as in 'the word of the Lord' (Dan 9:2). This then puts the start of the 70 'weeks' at the second siege, i.e. 587 BC. The first division of seven 'weeks' would then end at 536 BC - almost exactly the same time that Cyrus conquered Babylon and ended the Exile. (Also note that the KJV inserts a definite article before the word 'Messiah'. In fact, the text has no definite article - it should read 'an Anointed One', as in the RSV and NJB. The next division of 62 weeks would take us (approximately) to the time of Antiochus IV. The final 'week' would then refer to the seven years of persecution under Antiochus, from 171 BC (when the last Zadokite High Priest was murdered) to 164 BC (the death of Antiochus). It is also interesting to note that both Maccabees and Josephus point out that Antiochus violated his treaty of peace with the Jews in 167-168 BC - i.e. in the middle of the seventieth week (I Maccabees 1:29, Josephus Antiquities Book XX 11:3, Dan 9:27).

--Curtvdh 19:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The article certainly needs some expansion. For instance, the skeptical position is barely alluded to: "Skeptical scholars like J.A. Montgomery claim that the weeks are really the same as the years previously decreed. This allows for the fulfillment of the prophecy to reside in the person of Antiochus Epiphanes". OK, but how exactly? I see no mention of the events of the Maccabean Rebellion, the murder of the Anointed One (high priest), the Abomination of Desolation (the statue of Zeus in the temple) and so on. --Robert Stevens 14:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll get started on a revision - I'm familiar with the Maccabean Interpretation as well as the Dispensationalist. I need to do a little research on the Preterist interpretation, as well as the various Jewish interpretations. Fortunately, I have over 30 commentaries on Daniel covering all the major interpretations in my personal library, so I don't have to go far ;-) --Curtvdh 05:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Philip Mauro - article required

We could do with a Misplaced Pages article about Philip Mauro (1859-1952), a member of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States and one of the foremost patent lawyers of his day. The biography by Gordon P. Gardiner could be a useful source to start this. See . DFH 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge of Chronology

This article, Book of Ezra, and Book of Nehemiah, all contain a lengthy section about trying to date the events shared in common. The section was added to this article by User:Wstruse (whose only edits have been to these three articles and his user page) and then added as a whole to the other two articles. Given the encyclopedic importance of the issue it should be in the Wiki, but it doesn't need to be in three places. Worse, I think this may well include a copy edit violation, given the non-sequitur nature of having Tables 6.2, 6.3, and 6.4, but no others. I am uncertain as to whether this should be broken out into a separate article or left as an article in this article, but it defnitely needs a rewrite, verification, and a check against possible copyvios. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite & Verification

Caerwine,

I agree, this chronology does not need to be in three places. I am not sure the best way to go about rectifying the situation. I provided the contribution with the hope that someone would be able to present it in a more desirable manner. I realize my writing skills leave much to be desired. As to the copy edit violations, the words as well as the tables are mine. The tables were created by me in Xcel format. I could not provide them as originally created hence the table without the format.

________

For those who may be interested in rewriting this information or verifying it the following may also be useful.

The Apocrypha is considered an extra-Biblical text that was not included in the Cannon of Scriptures that makes up the common Bible today. The Apocrypha contains the books of 1st Esdras & 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras). The book of 1st Esdras is almost a word for word version of the Canonical books of Ezra, Nehemiah and part of Chronicles. 2nd Esdras (4th) contains much more information regarding Ezra and his prophetic visions relating to the end of the age and the Messianic era. None of 2nd Esdras (Ezra) is contained in the Canonical Scriptures. 1st Esdras and 2nd Esdras were in wide circulation up until at least the council of Trent. It is from Esdras that Josephus repeatedly quotes or references. Josephus died in 79 AD so it is likely that the books of Esdras were in circulation some decades before his death. It is likely that Esdras was based on the original Hebrew versions of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles that were in circulation at that time.

In 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras), Ezra states that he was in Babylon 30 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. 2nd Esdras also states that Ezra was one of the last remaining prophets of his time.

4 Esdras 3:1-2 In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: 2 For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon.

4 Esdras 10:44-48 44 This woman, whom thou sawest is Sion: and whereas she said unto thee, even she whom thou seest as a city builded, 45 Whereas, I say, she said unto thee, that she hath been thirty years barren: those are the thirty years wherein there was no offering made in her. 46 But after thirty years Solomon builded the city and offered offerings: and then bare the barren a son. 47 And whereas she told thee that she nourished him with labour: that was the dwelling in Jerusalem. 48 But whereas she said unto thee, That my son coming into his marriage chamber happened to have a fail, and died: this was the destruction that came to Jerusalem.

This book of 2nd (4th) Esdras confirms that Ezra was alive during the Babylonian captivity. Not only was he alive but 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e. 556 BC) he was a respected prophet of the people in Babylon. This confirms the Canonical book of Ezra where it states that Seraiah the high priest was Ezra’s father. As a respected prophet 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem Ezra is definitely a 1st generation member of the Judean captives. Ezra’s father died in around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem so at a minimum Ezra the prophet was 30 years old when these events are described in 2nd Esdras.

In 1909 Louis Ginzberg chronologically collated the traditions of the Jewish people found in the Talmud, Midrash and other traditional oral sources. These traditions or “Legends of the Jews” all centered on the oral traditions regarding the Scriptural narrative. Here are a few of excerpts from the “The Legends of the Jews”:

In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Ezra:

…………….The complete resettlement of Palestine took place under the direction of Ezra, or, as the Scriptures sometimes call him, Malachi. He had not been present at the earlier attempts to restore the sanctuary, because he could not leave his old teacher Baruch, who was too advanced in years to venture upon the difficult journey to the Holy Land. …………………………….

In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Daniel:

…………………….. The king consented on condition that Daniel designate a successor worthy of him. His choice fell upon Zerubbabel. Loaded with rich presents and amid public demonstrations designed to honor him, Daniel retired from public life. He settled in the city of Shushan, where he abode until his end. Though he was no prophet, God vouchsafed to him a knowledge of the "end of time" not granted his friends, the prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, but even he, in the fulness of his years, lost all memory of the revelation with which he had been favored. …………..

Both of the above passages place Ezra as a contemporary with Daniel, Zerubbabel, Haggai and Zechariah. The 1st specifically state that Ezra was alive during the first attempts to restore the 2nd temple. The 2nd passage states that Ezra (also called Malachi) was a friend of Daniel. Granted the Apocrypha and Ginsberg’s “Legends of the Jews” are not considered “inspired” texts. At a minimum they are examples of historical documents that in fact do confirm the Scriptural record regarding Ezra as a 1st generation Babylonian exile who lived contemporaneously with Haggai, Zechariah, Zerubbabel and Daniel.

Regards, Wstruse Wstruse 21:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)