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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dlthewave

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Dlthewave (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Sanctions being appealed

DiscussionLog

• Logged warning by Sandstein
• Deletion of User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles by Goldenring

Administrators imposing the sanctions

Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
GoldenRing (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of those administrators

Sandstein

Goldenring

Statement by Dlthewave

• I feel that the closing statement "Springee, Trekphiler, RAF910 and Dlthewave are warned not to misuse Misplaced Pages as a forum for polemic statements unrelated to Misplaced Pages, or attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities.", which appears to be copy-and-pasted from WP:POLEMIC, is not an accurate assessment of consensus among the admins who participated in the discussion. Among other things, it implies that all four editors are equally at fault, which does not appear to be what the admins intended in their support for a logged warning. Although Goldenring did delete a page in my userspace under WP:POLEMIC, there was no discussion of my "attacking" or "vilifying" anyone and one admin even stated "Dlthewave is in fact engaged in appropriate editing and discussion." There was no proposal to issue a logged warning to Dlthewave. (As a sidenote, I also feel that issuing a polemic warning to the other three involved editors instead of a warning related to talk page conduct was entirely out of left field, but that is something for them to address in their own appeals if they choose to pursue them.)
• I feel that Goldenring's deletion of a page in my userspace, User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing_of_firearms_articles, has a chilling effect on my ability to document and share what I view as a long-term pattern in the gun control/gun crime topic area. This documentation plays an essential role in addressing current problems that are, in my opinion, a continuation of that pattern. My intention is to demonstrate a pattern and not to attack the individual editors who have been involved in that pattern. This removal is especially concerning when the "opposing" attacks and accusations which I documented are allowed to remain in full view at WP:Firearms and other talk pages. I would be open to discussing ways to do this that would not be viewed as an attack page, since similar pages maintained by other editors have passed MfD.

Although this deletion may have been within Goldenring's editorial discretion, I would like it to be reviewed by other admins and preferably discussed by the community at Miscellany for Deletion. –dlthewave ☎ 17:33, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• I've opened a Deletion Review here as suggested. –dlthewave ☎ 21:53, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

After rereading User:Dlthewave/Whitewashing of firearms articles, I agree with the appellant that the page was not (quite) a violation of WP:POLEMIC because it did not name editors and did not make allegations of misconduct, except as implied in the title ("whitewashing"), but that alone probably doesn't merit a warning. Because that page was the reason for my warning, I am striking it and recommend that GoldenRing (talk · contribs) undelete the page. A case can perhaps be made for its deletion on grounds of copyright / attribution, but that's a matter for the deletion process. Sandstein 18:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Per my comment here, I've also withdrawn the warning with respect to Springee. Clearly I should have read the enforcement request more carefully; sorry for that. I think that we should be more careful in the future as to whether or not to entertain enforcement requests directed at multiple editors. Sandstein 22:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

In response to Bishonen, GoldenRing is correct that an action that has been labeled as an AE action may only be reviewed by way of the process described at WP:AC/DS#Appeals, that is, here at AE, or at AN or ARCA – but not at DRV. Bishonen, I recommend that you undo your temporary restoration of the page for the purpose of the DRV, or you may be desysopped for undoing an AE action out of process, as described at WP:AC/DS#Modifications by administrators. Any admin who acts on the currently ongoing DRV by overturning the deletion may likewise be desysopped. Sandstein 15:26, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Springee

I'm clearly an involved editor. As I said before I think Dlthewave has a very strong POV on this topic and I frequently disagree with them. However, when push comes to shove, I don't think on good faith they viewed the page as a POLMIC. For what it's worth, I would support reverting Dlthewave's warning. Springee (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by GoldenRing

I disagree with Sandstein above and stand by this action. Dlthewave has stated right here that the purpose of this page is to document long-term problematic editing and policy is clear that such material is allowed only for dispute resolution and when used in a timely manner. I don't see the practical difference between, "so-and-so said this" (which the appellant seems to admit would be disallowed) and "someone said this and here's a link showing who it was" which is what they've actually done. GoldenRing (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bishonen: I'm not sure why you've suggested deletion review here. AE actions cannot be overturned at deletion review, only at AE, AN or ARCA. Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action? GoldenRing (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Dlthewave: I will reiterate here what I've said on the deletion review: if you wish to use this material for valid dispute resolution (probably either an ANI or arbitration case request) and can outline a reasonable timeline for doing so (either on-wiki or privately by email), then I will self-revert my enforcement action. GoldenRing (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add, for what it's worth at this point, that I agree a formal warning to Dlthewave was not warranted. GoldenRing (talk) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Please note that I have requested clarification from the arbitration committee regarding my deletion at WP:ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 16:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Simonm223

Marginally involved. I just found out about the removal of DLThewave's excellent summary of the challenges faced to bring firearms into compliance with WP:N including the way that a wikiproject has tried to present their MOS suggestions as policy. I've said as much at another venue, but this is definitely not a violation of WP:POLEMIC and should be undeleted for the valuable resource it is. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dlthewave

• The matter of the deletion itself should be deferred to WP:DRV as that venue is much better equipped for such reviews. Whether or not the action itself was appropriate should be discussed here or in a more general manner at Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee (where Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions redirects). — Godsy_CONT) 10:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Dlthewave

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I commented in the initial thread, so I'm not sure whether my response should appear in this section, or above with GoldenRing's and Sandstein's. The deletion of Dlthewave's userspace subpage was arguably appropriate under WP:POLEMIC, and within reasonable admin discretion on GoldenRing's part. While I'm not sure I would have done the same, I'm comfortable leaving the page deleted. That said, I don't think a formal warning to Dlthewave is warranted; there wasn't really any support for such a warning amongst uninvolved admins in the previous thread, and it seems like overkill. The proper response to a potentially polemical userspace subpage is to delete it, which has been done. There wasn't any convincing evidence of a pattern of behavior warranting a logged warning on Dlthewave's part, at least not that I saw.

  Regarding the logged warnings, I do take Springee's point that they perhaps paint the remaining 3 editors with an overly broad brush. There are clearly gradations of concerning behavior, with Springee on the mild end and Trekphiler/RAF910 showing a much more sustained and problematic battleground attitude. I'll leave it up to other admins whether we should modify the warning to exclude Springee, but it is worth considering while we're here. MastCell  21:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• Hmm. This is definitely a confusing situation. Reading the deleted page, it does seem borderline WP:POLEMIC so, perhaps, GoldenRing was right in deleting it. But, Dlthewave brings up a good point. If they do plan on making a future case then how else can they keep a record of the edits they see as forming a pattern? They could do it off-wiki of course, but isn't it better to be open about one's activities? While the deletion was within admin discretion perhaps, in cases of this nature, it is better to leave them as is with a note to the editor that they can't leave it sticking around for too long. Imo, the warning should be withdrawn. --regentspark (comment) 00:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• I'm not sure about deleting the whitewashing essay; I can't seem to make up my mind. Suggest dlthewave take it to Misplaced Pages:Deletion review. An admin should be asked to temporarily undelete the page for purposes of discussion as soon as the DR is opened. But I don't have any trouble agreeing with Sandstein, Springee, MastCell, and Regentspark that dlthewave's warning should be withdrawn and struck from the log, and Sandstein has already done so. Bishonen | talk 01:11, 24 February 2019 (UTC).

• @Dlthewave:, I've temporarily undeleted your page for the deletion review. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC).
• Your deletion can't be overturned at Deletion review, GoldenRing? Are you sure? In that case, obviously I suggested it because I didn't know any better. A bit of bad luck that apparently nobody who did know saw my suggestion for Deletion review here at AE, some 20 hours before Dlthewave actually opened the deletion review. I'm not sure what should be the next step, considering there is quite a lot of discussion at the review already, and some disagreement about how to proceed. But whatever action is taken, rest assured I won't feel "undermined" by it, as somebody suggested there. I'm personally fine with whatever, although I want to apologize to Dlthewave for potentially complicating his situation. As for "Have you also not just unilaterally undone an AE action?", no, I haven't. If you're referring to my temporary undeletion of the page, for the deletion review only and with the front page covered by a template, per the instructions here, I can only ask you not to be so silly. If you're talking about my giving Dlthewave bad advice, well, I've explained how that came about (=ignorance on my part). Bishonen | talk 12:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC).

• What an absolute joy you are to work with, Sandstein. It's a wonder more admins don't flock to help out at AE, where honest mistakes get met with immediate threats of desysopping. I do want to point out that there's a pretty clear consensus at DRV that the page doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC. @GoldenRing:, do I understand correctly that you are not going to recognize that consensus because it is being discussed on the Wrong Page? If this is the case, then I suppose we should tell everyone at DRV their opinions are not wanted there, re-delete the page, and then have the exact same discussion here. Or alternately, GR could rescind the deletion.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
• I not only agree that restoring the page for deletion review is not an abuse of process, but that deleting the page via AE would be an abuse of process. The way to remove userspace essays that are contrary to policy is MfD., and review of decisions there is at Deletion Review. DGG ( talk ) 06:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

GoldenRing, do you intend to delete under AE every page in an area subject to DS (such as AP or PIA) that you think might arguably be the result of an action that violation an arb ruling,? DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

And I have just noticed, Sandstein, that your closing at the AE Discussion used the wording of the arb case "for polemic statements unrelated to Misplaced Pages, " but the entire discussion above about whether it violated POLEMIC is irrelevant, because the page is obviously related to WP. And the arb com wording continued " attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities. " I do not see any editors named on the page in question. It was discussing edits. (Of course the editors were implied, because the statements wee linked, but nothing about the editors is question is said on the page, only about the edits. DGG ( talk ) 17:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Roscelese

Nishidani

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nishidani

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Debresser (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:07, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. WP:HOUNDING violation. Nishidani had never edited that article or its talkpage before. In addition, his edit was poisoning the well.
2. Using the f-word. Nishidani does so even after he was asked to stop this: . In the past he has been warned at this same WP:AE to stop this behavior: and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive200#Nishidani. In addition, his appearance on this article was likely also a case of hounding, as Nishidani had never edited that article or its talkpage before.
3. Repeated and deliberate violations of my request not to edit on my talkpage. The second edit was made after I reminded him of that: .

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Nishidani has been a regular guest here from early stages onwards, with topic bans and more bans, blocks, and warnings like the one cited above from archive 200, and even a few self-imposed periods of penitence which failed to last long.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I haven't seen Nishidani around in a while after his latest announced retirement ended (admittedly not after a week but after 6 weeks), but he unfortunately has still not mended his bad ways. His inflammatory and insulting language, consciously or not intended to intimidate his opponents, coupled with hounding and harassing me on various pages, including my talkpage, are unacceptable battleground behavior on this project, and especially in the IP-conflict area.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Notified

@Huldra

1. Wow! Three examples in more than 10 years and 100,000 edits. Compare that to the 3 edits of Nishidani made within 10 hours, and you more or less made my point for me. And please also see this reply. Debresser (talk) 01:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
2. Oh, and, by the way, that was only one of the three issues I reported. Debresser (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Black Kite The hounding and general battleground mentality are a result of Nishidani's problem with me, which is rooted on our disagreements in the WP:ARBPIA area. If this forum would, however, decide, IMHO mistakenly so in view of the larger picture, that this is the wrong venue, I will indeed take your advice and report him at WP:ANI. Debresser (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Cullen328

1. You are confusing the content issue with the behavioral issue. This post is about the behavioral issue.
2. And I really think you should take back the statement or implication that I oppose certain images because of my personal believes. That was unwarranted and severely out of line. Debresser (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
3. And yes, there is a big difference between being aggravated at an editor once every 3-4 years and then using the f-word, between using it systematically to intimidate other editors and despite several requests and warning to refrain from doing so! Debresser (talk) 12:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Nishidani

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nishidani

I don't think I need comment, after Cullen's palmary reflection. If I were to, it would be easy to show Debresser's behavior in my regard has been persistently vexatious. But since on principle I refrain from whingeing, I won't do so even under provocation (unless of course an admin thinks I need to defend myself from the 'evidence' given above).Nishidani (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

• Debresser to an editor: "Go fuck your righteous self."
• Debresser to another editor: "If, however, you care to read a few basic Misplaced Pages guidelines and FUCKING DOES AS OUTLINED THERE,"
• Debresser to a third editor (me): "why the fuck wouldn't you use the word "evacuate" unless you had a pro-Palestinian POV from here till Ramallah, huh?"

Pot.Kettle.Black, Huldra (talk) 23:53, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

Debresser, and I hope you take this as honest advice, but I would suggest that inviting scrutiny to the editing history of Eliezer Berland would likely not be in your own interest. If you do however want to invite that scrutiny then this cannot be the place for it, as this page is very specifically about enforcing arbitration decisions. Neither of the articles here are covered by ARBPIA (or any other arbitration case), making them irrelevant on this page. nableezy - 02:25, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Also, this seems relevant here. nableezy - 03:37, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Cullen328: youve attributed noble pursuits to me that I regretfully cannot take credit for. nableezy - 03:39, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Cullen328

I am involved in discussing the content issues at the talk pages of both articles. Debresser brought the Eliezer Berland dispute to ANI, incorrectly accusing another editor of refusing to discuss the dispute at the article talk page. Debresser was edit warring on that article to include promotional self-published puffery from a website controlled by a convicted, self-admitted rapist. As for Talk:Jewish religious clothing, there was an active RFC underway there, which draws in previously uninvolved editors. Surely Debresser knows that processes such as RFC and venues such as ANI draw previously uninvolved editors such as Nishidani into the discussions. This is not hounding. I do not like use of the f-bomb in conversations among editors, do not use it myself and recommend that other editors refrain from its use. But there is no consensus that this word is banned from spirited debates among editors. Debresser seems to be advocating a stranger standard here: it is OK for him to drop f-bombs every 33,000 edits or so, but not OK for other editors to do so more frequently. As for ARBPIA, these are both topics related to Judaism but neither has any connection to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. If Eliezer Berland was related to that conflict, then Debresser's edit warring there would have been even more egregious. As for Talk:Jewish religious clothing, Nishidani is advocating for genuine improvements to that article, while Debresser is dragging his feet, because he does not like images and content that deviate from his admitted personal ultra-Orthodox Jewish identity. I recommend that Nishidani dial back use of the f-bombs because I consider that counterproductive. Nishidani should also be advised to stay away from Debresser's talk page, with the exception of standard required notifications. In my opinion, the real cause of this report is that Debresser resents the fact that a pro-Palestinian editor is making cogent and incisive observations about articles concerning Jewish topics. That is nothing to be concerned about and instead should be welcomed. No formal action is required here other than mild admonitions to the two parties. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

@Nableezy, I apologize for my error in confusing the usernames of two editors whose usernames begin with N and both of whom I respect. I could blame my smartphone's AI spellchecker, but instead I accept the responsibility. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Pinging Nableezy properly. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:44, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Icewhiz

Note there was a recent RfC at WP:CIVIL regarding "fuck off" - Misplaced Pages talk:Civility#Request for comment on the specific term "fuck off" – sanctionable or not! that concluded that "This discussion has been open for long enough that there is a coherent outcome. Namely, most of us agree that "fuck off" is definitely uncivil in many contexts, and incivility is sanctionable, but consideration should be given to the surrounding context of each instance before deciding to apply sanctions ....". Icewhiz (talk) 11:42, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nishidani

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Um, surely this is the wrong venue. The talkpage posts are irrelevant to ARBPIA and the two articles on which the edits took place aren't covered by it either. If you want to complain about Nishidani's general behaviour, ANI is thataway. Black Kite (talk) 23:41, 6 April 2019 (UTC)