Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by John Reid (talk | contribs) at 03:44, 22 November 2006 (→Clarification: stop meddling). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Merge

Prior to this merged version, wheel warring was discussed on several different pages. Besides talk pages and a number of lesser pages, this page -- under this title -- described wheel warring in general terms. A feeling arose that a more strictly worded restriction on wheel warring was demanded; this led to a workshop originally titled Misplaced Pages:Proposed wheel warring policy. This developed 7 different wordings which merged into a single wheel war guideline. Meanwhile, the original page evolved and grew.

Unaddressed until now has been the question of what we are doing with two different pages that speak to the same issue. Various editors called for a merger, which I have indeed completed. The key concern with merger was that each former page contained radically different wording. I believe the solution is to understand that each former page spoke to the wheel warring issue from different angles. Neither contradicted the other. Rather, one page attempted to guide admins away from wheel warring with terms subject to interpretation; application of such guidelines require mature judgement and use of balancing tests. The other page set a bright-line rule: touch it and you "die".

Forgive a lifelong graphic designer if I see things in graphic terms. Admins are permitted a great range of actions (not to scale). Some of these are unwise and quite possibly forbidden by other policies; some of these are reverts of other admins. These do not always overlap; an admin might block a user with whom he's had a content dispute; or an admin might unblock a blocked IP after hearing a plea from another user at the same dorm. When they do overlap, though, it's a sign of real trouble. Somewhere within the overlap area is wheel warring, as defined by this page's guidelines; this may very well be subject to sanctions but the definition is a bit fuzzy. Finally, there is a certain very definite type of action clearly forbidden by policy.

I have used the terms policy and guidelines here to indicate the relatively strict and lax natures of the two sections. Both former pages achieved guideline status before the move and I have retained the tag; I expect this to pass into Misplaced Pages official policy in time. Meanwhile, I hope nobody feels the need to try to rename these two sections; the terms are familiar, therefore understood by the casual reader. The intent is to suggest that when a given action is prohibited under the policy section it is really not subject to much debate. While the provisions of the guidelines section are very widely accepted, the truth is that in any given wheel war, some significant faction will claim they do not apply to them. This subtlety is best conveyed with the two short words; any explanation is almost surely to be ignored in the heat of the moment -- which is the time when clear understanding is key. We hope that even seriously upset admins will recognize that they are crossing a bright line when they violate policy.

For clarity, two large sections are broken out onto subpages:

Template:Def

Template:Def

Note also the talk page archive index at Wheel war/Archive.

This merger is an important stage in a long-running effort by a great many editors; I, personally, have worked hard on it. Yet it is not "finished". I expect editors to express their concerns directly and, if necessary, edit this page. John Reid 12:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• Nice work! >Radiant< 14:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Policy

As noted on the village pump, this page should be policy since it's both actionable and consensual, it's a pretty clear case of "don't do that", and has already been upheld by several arbcom decisions. I've put a {{proposed}} up so that we can discuss the wording. I'd be happy to hear people's opinions on, or objections to, this. (Radiant) 13:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Two concerns that I believe need to be dealt with before this can become policy:

• The Application section is rather confusing, to say the least. It defines certain portions of itself as policy but not others, and uses an "in the nth degre" terminology I've never seen used in any other policy. (Was that wording used in an arbcom ruling or something?)
• If we're making this policy, can we please rephrase the opening "Most editors (and admins) tend to agree that wheel wars are not good." to something just a bit stronger? From the intro it sounds like Wheel Warring is about as forbidden as sarcasm.

One last thing that may or may not be a concern is that there are several MeatballWiki links which don't seem explicitly relevant to the subject.

Other than that, agreed, let's make it a policy as soon as possible. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 15:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

• I've done some heavy editing, in particular removing the parts that seemed redundant. Short, clear policies are better than convoluted, verbose ones. Please copyedit. (Radiant) 13:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

MeatballWiki is the metawiki of them all. The central discussion revolves around how to run a wiki and is required reading for anybody interested in Misplaced Pages major policy issues. It does not itself have much in the way of rules and discussion sprawls out, sometimes into irrelevancy. If you hunt through the pages, though, you find a lot of real gems. John Reid ° 07:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand the purpose of Meatball Wiki, but not the relevance of the linked page to this particular policy. --tjstrf talk 11:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I likewise am aware of Meatball and have read quite a bit of it, but fail to see what you refer to at this point. (Radiant) 15:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Applications

Above, I've tried to explain in some detail why this topic is broken into two different, though overlapping categories of offense. The terms in the first degree and in the second degree are very common in law and well understood; if they haven't been used in other policies, perhaps it's because our community feels that they are all-or-nothing rules and all infractions are equal. I derive the two clases of forbidden action directly from the two pages which I merged; each stood as a guideline for some time, each prohibited some actions and called them wheel wars; but they forbade different things and did so in different ways. I don't think they ever did conflict but I have preserved the distinction as an honest reflection of our record in labeling and reacting to these threats to public order. Please hang onto the terms; they are needed. Otherwise, it's difficult for somebody to say, clearly, that Admin A violated this policy at some time, in some place "in the second degree but not in the first". Thank you. John Reid ° 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Better still, you simply explain exactly what they did it in plain english. Call it "disruptive wheel warring", or "protracted wheel warring", or use any other term that's not unparseable idiomatic jargon to outsiders. I have no issue with the concepts of first and second degree inherently, but a huge issue with that specific terminology. --tjstrf talk 11:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

However, people who aren't versed in law are likely to not have heard of them. WP:NOT a bureaucracy, avoid needless complication. What we need is a single definition of "wheel warring", not two; otherwise editors will just get confused since most of them aren't used to legalese. (Radiant) 15:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No, none of that works at all. If you continue the way you are going, you are going to burn nearly a year's worth of work by any number of editors. Keep cutting and you will be left with the original, vague statement: Wheel warring is admins reverting each other and that's bad. That wasn't enough then, it's not enough now.

All wheel warring is disruptive -- highly so. Bright-line wheel warring is a subset of wheel warring in general but that doesn't mean it is somehow more destructive; it's simply easier to define. Two different, but not conflicting definitions of wheel warring are good. The bright line is unambiguous, covers the majority of straight-ahead cases, and is clear and simple enough that it is almost impossible to poke a wikilawyer hole in it. The balancing test is broad enough to cover all other cases but requires judgement and can, therefore, be argued. No single statement can possibly stretch to cover all eventualities with an airtight zipper bag.

Degrees of offense are common legal terms; I doubt anyone who's seen an episode of Perry Mason or CSI can fail to understand that there's a distinction. But it really doesn't matter what you call them. I offered two different, parallel pairs of terms: (policy and guideline) and (first degree and second degree). If Joe Blo can't understand either of these, I don't know how to help. Call them apple and peach if you'd rather. Don't conflate the two. John Reid ° 23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Commonly used legal terms or not, they're utterly non-intuitive and resulted in an inconsistent policy. All policies should be written in as consistent and simple a manner as humanly possible. The word bright-line is similarly esoteric, can we say clear-cut instead? --tjstrf talk 11:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

History

Summary of high-water marks in development of this policy:

• -- First version of article.
• -- First instance of project page.
• -- First definition version.
• -- First version advanced as guideline.
• -- Often-cited comment by Jimbo.
• -- First version that mentions a specific sanction.
• -- First version of balancing test that reaches toward bright-line rule.
• -- First version of bright-line rule.
• -- "Seven forks" version/straw poll; the mature state of prior discussion.
• -- First merge of bright-line rule.
• -- State of bright-line rule when merger proposed.
• -- Last version of balancing test version before merge.
• -- In my opinion, the last "good" version -- although open to improvement.
• Wheel war -- Current article.

John Reid ° 08:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Post-merge changes

John Reid solicited my opinion on my talk page, so I'd just like to say that I wholeheartedly support the simplifications that were made after he made the merge. Philwelch 13:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? John Reid ° 23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Because it cut out a lot of unnecessary crap that added nothing to our understanding of policy and existed only to satisfy your personal sense of order and completeness. Philwelch 02:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That's a strong comment but does nothing to advance my understanding. What's crap? Why is it crap? Why does it not advance your understanding? What is your understanding? Why do you think the crap satisfied only me? Do you disregard all the work of other editors?

You -- not anyone else -- created the first instance of the bright-line policy. Why did you do this if you felt a simple amendment to the balancing test version was sufficient? I understand that many editors came along and put up competing versions; that's how we got to "seven forks". Are you angry at all of us? Do you discount our comments? When I took the bold step and merged all 7, I put the version I proposed up top -- not because it's "mine", but because a very strong consensus emerged in favor of that version above all others. Do you disagree? Were we all wrong? The bright line merge stood for several months as guideline without any attempt to destroy it. Where were you?

If you're here just to fling crap, why? In the long run, that tends to be ignored. Thoughtful editors want to read thoughtful comments. If you're here to shine a new light on an old issue, please, switch it on. John Reid ° 11:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

John, you asked me to come comment, and I did. I have better things to do with my life than to satisfy your desires here. My policy was shot down. Fine. That doesn't mean I'll support you coming in here and polluting what we do have with a bizarre linguistic quagmire. This is supposed to be a very simple policy governing administrative reversions. The minute you start using legal and pseudo-legalistic jargon to describe Misplaced Pages policy, you have failed in writing something that will be clearly and quickly understood by Misplaced Pages's contributors. And to answer just one of your many insulting questions, I don't disregard the work of other editors so much as I don't automatically grant it respect just for being work. You can work for months and months on something that turns out to be utter crap. So I don't care how many people worked on it and how long they worked on it. All I care about is whether it's good for the wiki or not. The first rule of Misplaced Pages is not to get attached to your own work because it can be discarded or altered at will. I had a hard time with that rule once, and all I can tell you is to accept it gracefully and maintain your own dignity. Philwelch 18:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

I've stricken most of the paragraph that said that "slow" wheel wars must not be called wheel wars because stopping them will aggravate the issue. Per m:the wrong version, that is not the case; stopping a wheel war or edit war is not an endorsement of the present version. (Radiant) 08:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do it bit by bit? Is there some amusement in driving the little tractor back and forth? Why not just blank the whole thing and tag it off? You don't seriously think this is how to create policy, do you?

Meanwhile, the next time you offer a pastiche on other people's words, please do so with a shade more objectivity. Okay? John Reid ° 11:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You do it bit by bit because that way there are chances to discuss if someone disagrees with the new wording. --tjstrf talk 11:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I objected strongly at every turn but no discussion is forthcoming, only more destruction. What's the point? May as well burn it all in one pass. John Reid ° 03:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

John, it would help if you would comment on the changes rather than commenting on the person making them. I have explained to you earlier that Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy and that policy is not, and should not be, worded like a lawbook. That is precisely what I am trying to prevent here. You can look to other policy pages as examples for their style. (Radiant) 11:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Your comment is general, a hand-waving at the entire thing. "It's written like a lawbook, so I shall burn it." My comments have been highly specific and detailed; you have no response. John Reid ° 03:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Setting aside the personal sniping above - part of the problem here seems to be that there are very different ideas of what type of actions constitute 'wheel warring'... as I pointed out when this merge was proposed some time back. I think these can be briefly described as;

1. Reverting - Some suggest that any reversal of an admin action is 'wheel warring'. Benefits of this are that, if followed, a single contested admin action prompts discussion and no other action is taken until consensus is achieved. Drawbacks are; (1) a 'first strike' in the face of pre-existing disagreement is 'permitted' and becomes the de facto result until consensus is achieved AND (2) this sometimes gets applied to cases where the reverting admin reasonably felt that the reasons for the original action were no longer valid or that consensus supported the reversion... e.g. removing protection placed two weeks ago by another admin or acting based on a perceived consensus might be called 'wheel warring'.
2. Reverting more than once - Another view is that one admin taking the same admin action more than once is 'wheel warring'. Benefit of this is that it allows an admin a single action which may have been made in the good faith belief that it was/would be supported by consensus. Drawback is that it allows a dozen admins to each revert once each... creating all the negative aspects of a wheel war, but not calling it one.
3. Contested action without consensus - Finally it is sometimes suggested that any admin action taken with the foreknowledge that one or more other admins disagree is 'wheel warring'. Benefits are that it classifies 'first strikes' in pre-existing disputes as 'wheel warring' and allows reasonable 'good faith' reversions where little/no controversy is expected. Drawback is that it allows 'wiggle room' for claiming that one didn't know an action would be controversial.

Currently this page seems to lean towards the second of these (leading to the dispute above), personally I greatly prefer the third, but I see the first get cited most frequently (as in, 'you reverted me! that is wheel warring!'). Everyone agrees that wheel-warring is bad, but we don't agree on which of the three above (or possibly more) it is. I think we need to settle that issue before we can finalize any page on the subject. --CBD 14:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think we should aim for a combination of #2 and #3 (and note that the page does have an example of the "many-on-many" wheel war where every admin does the action only once). While people have been known to argue for #1, it is obviously false that undoing an admin action once is automatically controversial - the unprotection you give is a good example, but so are some undeletes and unblocks. If the original acting admin doesn't object, it's not a war. (Radiant) 14:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

And I think you should stop meddling. You have no respect for the guideline status that both of these pages enjoyed prior to merge. You have no basis for your actions -- you're simply burning down the house. I ask you to stop, go back to the last good version, and carefully, from there, make changes and be sure you actually enjoy community consensus on them before you make more. Thank you. John Reid ° 03:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)