Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2006 November 17

< Misplaced Pages:Deletion review | Log

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Trialsanderrors (talk | contribs) at 06:08, 23 November 2006 (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject University of Virginia - Userfication overturned, back in Misplaced Pages namespace. Move to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Virginia is an editorial decision.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 06:08, 23 November 2006 by Trialsanderrors (talk | contribs) (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject University of Virginia - Userfication overturned, back in Misplaced Pages namespace. Move to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Virginia is an editorial decision.)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

< November 16	November 18 >

Full reviews may be found in this page history. For a summary, see Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 November)

17 November 2006

BZPower

BZPower.com is an online reference site and community for fans of Lego's Bionicle line of toys. As an Administrator of the site, I see no reason why the page on Misplaced Pages, which contained information about the history and purpose of BZPower, should have been deleted. It is possible that people were using the page to defame our site, but I can't tell what the previous content of the page is. The last time I looked at it was a while ago, so I have no idea what kind of inappropriate editing might have been done to it. I would appreciate it if the page could be restored. If further information is required, I can be contacted at andrew@bzpower.com. Thank you for your time. -Andrew (Black Six) BZPower News Manager & Forum Admin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Black Six (talk • contribs)

Endorse deletion. I'm the admin who protected it after 311 edits. With all due respect to Andrew, the article has been nominated for deletion four times. - Lucky 6.9 23:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Closer's comment: I relinked the nomination to the correct AfD. The previous three nominations actually resulted in first keep, then two no consenses, but with the first, a comment in the 4th AfD that it was "kept as apparently users back then didn't need to present any sort of logical argument" is rather apt; the fourth AfD was much more comprehensive than the previous and demonstrated more clearly the lack of actual, independent, non-trivial coverage of the subject. As my close isn't really being disputed here so far I don't have much else to add at this point. --Sam Blanning 01:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse The closing admin's logic appears sound to me. If an article can't be verified, it shouldn't be kept. Shimeru 01:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion. There are many pages which contain information that are deleted, because there is no way to verify them. Also, without sources, it was probably promotional, too, which fails WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. On an unrelated note, your listing is so... formal. It doesn't really have to be. -Amarkov _edits 02:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse - I think the last line of the appeal says it all. Chris talk back 17:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel it would be pertinant to add that I have not been a large contributor to BZPower's entry on Misplaced Pages, and only recently learned of the issues it's been having here. I am merely trying to get the site I work for be fairly represented. I don't see that as a Conflict of Interests at all. -Andrew (Black Six)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.246.220.144 (talk • contribs)

It's a conflict of interest whenever someone associated with a company discusses their Misplaced Pages article. Note, however, that "Conflict of interest" should not be taken to be the reason for endorsement. It only bolsters the actual reason, namely that there are no verifiable sources. -Amarkov _edits 17:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse Per Sam's well reasoned arguments. The AfD is not a vote, and simply saying it is notable does not make it so. The people who chose delete did so based on the logic that no evidence of it's notoriety or verifiability had been presented. The people who chose keep did so becuase they wanted the article to be there. Using personal preference as your only justification on an AfD will likely result in your opinion being given little weight. HighInBC 18:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse This is a pretty clear-cut case. I wouldn't go so far as to call the article defamation exactly, but it was a terrible article (list of admins, petty forum drama, no references, etc.) It certainly didn't make the forum look good, and you should probably be glad it was deleted. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Alldaydrive

In this day and age (with help from the internet) self-released albums are quickly becoming not only more and more common but also more accepted as legitimate releases. Bands can become successful and build tremendous fan base without ever having been signed to a major label. Simply because the band in question has releases albums on their own is no reason to delete. The band in this article not only has a huge following but was signed to a label and is continuing as a successful source of music and inspiration for youth today. I was reminded of this band when I read another WP article about a band that had been signed to the same label years ago, this other article was not deleted so it does not make sense that the alldaydrive article was. I was un-aware that there was a discussion about this article and its proposed deletion; when I first submitted the article I had full intention of finishing my research and updating the article with more links and more current information. Some of the things I found in my research and with talking to a radio station local to the band is that this band is currently making big changes in their community by organizing fund-raising events for local charities and youth organizations. They are donating time and money and talent to their community to make it a better place and give coming generations a positive atmosphere to live in and positive role-models to look up to. I believe that this band has legitimacy and is important. I would say that simply because some admins or editors have not heard of a specific thing (or in this case band) that does not mean that said thing (or band) is not viable. I worked in the music industry for many years and I think we need more bands like this, so support and information about bands like this is extremely important. PillageTHENburn 22:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse deletion. Valid AfD with unanimous consensus, no compelling reason to overturn. I'm sure they're very nice guys, but that doesn't make them notable, which is what we need to have an article on them. --Sam Blanning 23:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion. It's very nice that you want to promote the band, they sound like nice people. You still can't use Misplaced Pages for it. -Amarkov _edits 02:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse - AfD was unanimous, with no valid reason for inclusion presented other than WP:ILIKEIT. Chris talk back 17:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse - I love it when people basically come in and tell us our policies shouldn't apply to THEIR article. Pfagh. Please try another wiki. --Elar a girl 20:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn - Ok, Sam Blanning, what makes a band "notable"? Is U2 notable? Why? Because they are charitable? Because the are rich? What exactly defines notable? Amarkov, I am not intending to promote, I was intending to be a part of something I believed in (Misplaced Pages), however it certainly appears that if an article doesn't happen to fit into the likes or interests of a small group of elite people then it is "not notable" or not worthy of existence. Personally this situation has deeply marred my outlook on the so called "community" that is Misplaced Pages. Again this issue is about legitimate, real information being "banned" because you want to and for no other reason. Elaragirl, I never tried to tell anyone that "your" policies shouldn't apply. With that comment you are only solidifying the notion that this is not a community site where information is welcome from all people. It is "run" and controlled by few, and the rest of us have no say and it will never matter. If I am wrong then please explain, I am willing to listen. At this point the immature attitudes and comments from these people have frustrated me and created serious doubt as to the "pureness" of this site. I re-read the article that Chris posted WP:ILIKEIT. I found that it only increased my sentiment that this article was unfairly deleted. Please note REAL reasons that I can understand instead of vague childish statements like " I love it when people basically come in and tell us our policies shouldn't apply to THEIR article. Pfagh.". From what I've read that is NOT a valid argument for or against anything. I realize that when I wrote the article I probably screwed up by not citing enough sources and perhaps (although I do not recall off hand) giving personal opinion. This was my first (and perhaps last if I will be crucified like this every time) article and I am learning. I will re-work the article to make it fit the guidelines more precisely. Please give me a chance.PillageTHENburn 23:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You asked for it...

Not a single relable source was in the article. Please read the page at this link: WP:RS and WP:OR to understand what we mean when we are talking about reliable sources.
The criteria we use to determine what gets in or does not get into the encyclopedia is at this link, WP:MUSIC. Your article's subject fails to assert notability and importance in several different areas: the only links given to back up your claims were a mySpace site (where anyone can post anything and claim it's the truth) and a label that is for self-publication. In order for a band (such as your example of U2) to be listed, it has to be fufill at least SOME of the criteria at WP:MUSIC. Finally, please understand there is no Cabal/Group of Evil Editors out to destroy you or your article. If your article was deleted before you had a chance to work on it, then I'm sure an admin will copy it to your userspace and you can find the proper sourcing for it (if such exists). I am certainly not a part of any cabals since I've barely been here since June. But the rules are rules. --Elar a girl 01:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

First off, thank you for being human and answering my actual questions instead of simply belittling me and making me feel stupid. As I mentioned I'm new and it really feels like (some) people here talk down to me (and others?); it seems that something that is intended to be open and free and communal should have good personalities behind it as well. I don't know how to go about doing this but I would love it if the article could be copied to my userspace, that way I could look at what I posted and edit/fix/add/change it to me the criteria. Of course if I can not make it fit the criteria then it shall remain dead, and I am fine with that, I'd just like a chance. Thank you all for your time. PillageTHENburn 17:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

steve.museum

steve.museum is notable, that a group of editors did not know that, or that the first version of the article did not convey that is moot. we need to get the full article up for deletion review and get some of the editors from arts informatics and social informatics to comment Sils660 21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No you don't, you just need to establish notability. If you do that, it can't be speedied. -Amarkov _edits 21:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse deletion the latest attempt to re-create this article is longer (first few were simply external links), but still fails to establish notability per WP:WEB. Also, the sections on "Museums & Folksonomy" and "Criticisms" seem like original research, and seem to fit more in the folksonomy article (ie, as an example of its use in museums) rather than in its own article. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 22:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
What is this madness? The article has a speedy tag, a hangon tag, a drv tag, and it is plainly not an instant delete. I say remove all tags and send to AfD. Guy (Help!) 22:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- It was deleted as both G4 and A7, recreation of deleted content (deleted four times before the most recent one) and no assertion of notability. If it meets a speedy deletion criterion and no one is making an effort to show otherwise (rather than simply objecting), it doesn't matter how many "hang on" tags there are. I deleted it the most recent time, so I suppose you see where my opinion lies. —Cuiviénen 23:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  - I've fixed the copy-and-post restoration that had been performed with a restoration of what the page looked like at last deletion. —Cuiviénen 23:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    - Speedy deletion criteria "G4" does not apply to previously speedy deleted material, and as an administrator you're supposed to already know that. Silensor 23:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
      - You're right; I only assumed that at least one of the deletions had gone through AfD. In any case, the article clearly does not assert notability and the author has made no move to make it meet WP:WEB. An AfD is not warranted, and we cannot open an AfD for every article that someone thinks should be on Misplaced Pages. —Cuiviénen 00:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
      - But A7 does, and I don't think this article makes a claim for notability. Regardless, given the contention, perhaps this is best going full-term on an AfD. -ZimZalaBim (talk) 23:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

overturnthe assertion of notability is precisely what articles should not be doing. the article is noteworthy to people in the field, and soon, i expect, to many more people that experience steve.museum at the various museums. that... wikipedia doesn't look up the article in relevant literature is a consistent problem. sure, the article could provide a few more cites, but really it is a solid project and quite well known. i tried to look it up on wikipedia when i first was told.. found nothing. This calso could be part of systematic bias. wikipedia greatly prefers science/history over museums/art, we need to re-educate ourselves on what is the current in musems.--Buridan 01:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research in a field, nor for promoting an organization. If steve.museum becomes notable, then it warrants an article. However, the purpose of Misplaced Pages is not to promote new concepts. —Cuiviénen 05:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, for what it's worth, all of the newly added references are written by Bruce Wyman and Jennifer Trant, both of whom show up as affiliates of steve.museum here. Papers by a website's owners/affiliates are not assertions of notability. —Cuiviénen 05:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Zero references. Why is that? User:Zoe|(talk) 02:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion. Notability should not be contingent on who you are. If something is notable, ANYONE should be able to find sources if they look hard enough. Considering that apparently, even you, the author, can't find a source... -Amarkov _edits 02:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

consider that anyone can find a source, given the url. --Buridan 15:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Consider that nobody's willing to put in a source now. We can't go ask our readers to go do google searches and other things to verify the information in the article. It's up to the people who want the article kept to do so. ColourBurst 15:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Also consider that it obviously is not that easy to find sources, or you could have already, and this wouldn't even be an issue. -Amarkov _edits 16:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't have any systematic bias. You must be thinking of systemic bias. Small but important difference. Endorse deletion - no need to waste time at AfD. Chris talk back 17:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment (negative) What is the problem here? "Jennifer Trant" (the only References are links to her Web pages and PDF essays) is promoting her collaborative project and attempting to add verisimiltude by being in Misplaced Pages. Can anyone not see this? Yes, it's a Very Pretty article, but it does not have a single credible citation from anyplace not directly tied to one of the principals ... and did anyone bother to look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Steve.museum? (Maybe Archives & Museum Informatics, another Bruce Wyman and Jennifer Trant venture, should be put under the WP:COMPANY spotlight as well?) —72.75.93.205 (talk | contribs) 13:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell Jennifer Trant has not contributed to the article or to this discussion at all. I created this article.Sils660 00:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I am going to post new references (not written by people involved in the project) on the Talk:Steve.museum page. I am a new user and don't know if they fall within guidelines, so I am posting them on the talk page first. If you would like to take a look please do. --Sils660 17:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Endorse deletion per Amarkov. Spam is spam. --Aaron 22:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Amarkov was concerned about the lack of sources. Now there are sources. --Sils660 23:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No there aren't. There are blogs, which don't count, forums, which don't count, and passing references, which don't count. -Amarkov _edits 23:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment: although the speedy seemed quite justified, a full AfD might help resolve the matter for once and for all. After which, we can salt. :) (Note: this is absolutely not a !vote for restore/list-at-AfD, just a comment.) Xtifr _tälk 00:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I use Misplaced Pages everyday at work to look up things far less notable than steve. Calling this promotional or spam is absurd. I found the entry looking for information and I found it. I've been hearing about steve for months now. I am shocked that something of such use and interest to the catalogue, research, library, and museum communities and clients is being treated so dismissively by a supposedly intelligent and open-minded community. One wonders how OCLC and AACR got entries in such a philistine environment.206.28.73.1 16:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be because inclusion is not an indicator of notability. Chris talk back 16:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If this information is of such use and interest to the catalogue, research, library, and museum communities and clients, why has no one been able to find third party reliable sources which say so? User:Zoe|(talk) 03:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Mayfair High School and deleted images used on deleted article

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mayfair High School

There was no discussion whatsoever to delete this article. The person who deleted it says that it had no reliable sources and was unimproved since its creation over a year ago. That is clearly wrong. It had reliable sources and it did not seem to need much, if any, improvement. Renvarian 02:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Overturn and list on AfD, I'm not so sure A7 applies here. It's not a business, person, group of people, band, or website, and the article contained an assertion of notability (awards, however verifiable they are). A7 is only for articles without an assertion of notability. --Core desat 03:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn and list on AfD per Coredesat. The article was a mess but notability was asserted: Mayfair is recognized as a "California Distinguished School" and as a "Blue Ribbon" school—one of the highest awards a high school in the United States can obtain. In 2001, Mayfair received the Golden Bell award from the California School Board Association for their Academy of Animation and Digital Art Program. The minimum for this would be prodding. ~ trialsanderrors 04:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion without prejuddice against creation of a better article. As deleted it was a directory entry, and much of it was the work of JarlaxleArtemis, who is indefinitely banned. Guy (Help!) 08:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion per JZG. Eusebeus 11:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Neutral to (un)deletion, but afaik schools qualify for A7 as companies or corporations. Aecis 15:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Again, as stated above, A7 is only if there is no assertion of notability. I agree with the above that awards are an assertion of such. However, endorse deletion per Guy, as work of banned user. – Ch acor 16:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse deletion per JzG, as the work of a banned user while he was banned (the anon editor is in the same IP range as the other IPs JarlaxleArtemis used). I didn't check the history. --Core desat 17:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn and undelete. Notability is asserted with multiple notable alumni and as an award winning school. bbx 18:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn with no prejudice against AFDing. Notability asserted makes A7 unsuitable. User was not banned a year ago when he was creating this, was he? I'm disturbed by comments such as "I didn't check the history" when trying to utilize {{db-g5}}. -- nae'blis 19:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment I wasn't the deleting admin. --Core desat 20:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No, but you're endorsing the use of G5 when the original nomination indicates this was created and entirely edited long before JA was banned. If you didn't check the article history, where's the basis for your endorsement? -- nae'blis 21:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment Point taken. I've restored my original argument. --Core desat 20:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Overturn. Did Jarlaxle create the page? Was he banned when he created it? That may change this, but as an A7 this was improper. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn and undelete as an invalid speedy. Go read the policy, G5 is not retroactive, and A7 clearly does not apply. Silensor 21:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn and undelete. As for A7, let's see a line from the article: "Mayfair is recognized as a "California Distinguished School" and as a "Blue Ribbon" school—one of the highest awards a high school in the United States can obtain.". Seems like an assertion to me. Created by JarlAxle in April 2005, he was not banned then, so that argument is without merit as well. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn Send to AfD. The school has multiple claims of notability including being a Blue Ribbon school (I'm not sure at this point that's enough but it is a claim) and two notable alumni. JzG's point that it was mainly created by a banned user isn't relevant because the user was not banned at the time of his edits to the article. JoshuaZ 02:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn without prejudice against an AFD listing, but frankly I do not believe it is necessary - this school appears to be notable. Yamaguchi先生 03:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Overturn, undelete and do not send to AfD. Out-of-process speedy should be immediately restored. A7 not valid and the log comment: no reliable sources, unimproved since its creation over a year ago can not be used to justify a deletion. WP:CSD does not require sources or give a timeframe for article improvement. Certain admins need to contemplate the reason why AfD runs for five days. Finally, admin error or destruction of wikipedia content does not mandate an AFD debate. This DRV would have been avoided if the initial mistake had not been made or had been rapidly corrected. Let's not compound the error with more useless verbiage. --JJay 18:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Endorse, per User:JzG. We don't want to send this to AfD, because the schoolcrufters would only clutter it up with nonsense hyperbole. It's a stretch as far as CSD goes, but close enough that WP:SNOW happily justifies it for me. WP:NOT a directory, and schools still have to pass WP:V. Remember, we need to verify the information, not the subject, so it is not sufficient to say "the school exists, and we can verify its existence". It's a primary school, for crying out loud. Chris talk back 20:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The WP:SNOW essay states: If an issue doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting an unexpected outcome from a certain process, then there is no need to run it through that process. Based on the opinions expressed in this DRV, and your own admission regarding the probable outcome of an AFD nomination, the Snow essay hardly seems applicable (although might be cited to justify the immediate closing of this DRV and the restoration of the article because the outcome is foreordained). The next time you want to justify the indefensible, might I suggest you try our "deep and subtle" IAR policy, the all-purpose refuge of those with little consideration for consensus building on article inclusion at wikipedia. --JJay 21:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
As I suggested, the chance of an unexpected outcome of any prospective AfD is nil. Hence, there is no point subjecting this non-article to it. As for your reference to consensus building, may I point out that the schoolcruft brigade (yourself included) actively blocks any attempts at "consensus building". Chris talk back 22:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm on leave from the brigade right now so I'm just trying to block your complete misinterpretation of WP:SNOW from spreading --JJay 22:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What complete misinterpretation would that be? Is there any doubt of the outcome of an AfD? No. Hence no point in going through one. Good common-sense call. If you so greatly object to the deletion, quit whining and go recreate the article from reliable sources already. Chris talk back 22:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The Snow essay says that process can be skipped if the outcome is assured. It doesn't say skip the process and apply the opposite of the expected outcome. That is the justification you have provided to endorse the speedy deletion of this article (i.e. "WP:SNOW happily justifies it for me"). Your interpretation is wrong. WP:SNOW further calls for the complete process to be followed for contentious issues. WP:SNOW can not justify an improper CSD for a school article that, based on thousands of AFD debates, is going to be contentious. However, If you are now saying that an AFD following this DRV would be a waste of time per WP:SNOW than I agree (as per my original comment)--JJay 23:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, my reasoning is that of JzG, which (as you'd know if you read it) is without prejudice to a decent article being created, so if you feel so strongly that this school deserves an article, go create one. Chris talk back 23:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It will be restored following this DRV. Whether this article is "decent" or not is an entirely different issue.--JJay 23:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)